PDA

View Full Version : Are Property Taxes Unethical?




Warrior_of_Freedom
02-23-2013, 09:41 PM
It always bothered me homeowners have to pay property tax. What bothers me more is if you don't pay the property tax the government reserves the right to take your home. This downright makes it rent. Does the state/county have the right to possess your property because you won't pay a tax on it, even if you are unemployed and have no income to be taxed?

TheTexan
02-23-2013, 09:42 PM
Its ridiculously unethical. A society that can not own land can never be free.

Pericles
02-23-2013, 09:44 PM
Its ridiculously unethical. A society that can not own land can never be free.

+1

oyarde
02-23-2013, 09:47 PM
It is beyond ethics , it is immoral, one of the greatest mistakes of all time. Education could be taken care of in a multitude of ways and the worst one was selected.

oyarde
02-23-2013, 09:48 PM
This :) should be a public poll ....

Warrior_of_Freedom
02-23-2013, 09:50 PM
It is beyond ethics , it is immoral, one of the greatest mistakes of all time. Education could be taken care of in a multitude of ways and the worst one was selected.

yes what they are saying is a teacher getting a fat paycheck is more important than you having a home to live in

EBounding
02-23-2013, 09:55 PM
Yes. Even though all taxes are arguably unethical, the property tax is one of the most absurd. As far as I know, land is the only asset that's taxed just because you own it. You don't pay taxes just for owning a car, a computer or stock that doesn't change in value, but you do for land in most places.

It's a small reason why I don't bother buying a house. Why should I pour all my money into a mortgage downpayment, assume all the risk, pay interest, and still pay the taxes?

BAllen
02-23-2013, 09:56 PM
Definitely!
There are elderly folks who are kicked out of their homes because they can't pay property taxes. They work their entire lives, pay off the house, only to find they can't pay the taxes.

oyarde
02-23-2013, 10:25 PM
Yes. Even though all taxes are arguably unethical, the property tax is one of the most absurd. As far as I know, land is the only asset that's taxed just because you own it. You don't pay taxes just for owning a car, a computer or stock that doesn't change in value, but you do for land in most places.

It's a small reason why I don't bother buying a house. Why should I pour all my money into a mortgage downpayment, assume all the risk, pay interest, and still pay the taxes?

But if I am your Landlord, you are paying my property tax, it will be factored into the rent .There, really is little avoidance ....

oyarde
02-23-2013, 10:27 PM
Definitely!
There are elderly folks who are kicked out of their homes because they can't pay property taxes. They work their entire lives, pay off the house, only to find they can't pay the taxes.

Correct , you own squat , you rent from Govt , as long as you can pay the property tax , you can keep it , otherwise within a few months , years it will go on the auction block .Despicable .

GunnyFreedom
02-23-2013, 10:39 PM
This was actually the first issue of political awareness that crept up on my radar...1985~ish? Something like 12 years old?

My mom went to the County to pay property tax (in NC they DO assess property tax on cars and boats by the way) and I was confused so she explained what was going on to the best of her ability. I was quiet for a bit and thought about it, and then I asked, wait, doesn't that amount to just 'rent?' as in 'nobody owns any property at all???'

She didn't really have an answer except "I think you may be right."

I may be off on my age. As a particularly precocious kid, it may have been even earlier. My mom would know better, she's on RPF's by the way as "freedom mom"

In any case, this one has been a MAJOR pet peeve of mine since early childhood.

Yes, property taxes are more than unethical and immoral, they are a basic violation of pretty much everything America is supposed to stand for, full stop. Until relatively recently, it was (IMHO) one of the most blatant and egregious violation of Constitutional principle that America had. Now, of course, there is a whole cornucopia of horrific violations so it's kinda hard to rank them.

Philhelm
02-23-2013, 10:46 PM
The property tax is one of the most egregious forms of taxation in existence. The implication is that one can never truly own property. It is only slightly less egregious than being taxed for not having health insurance.

PaulConventionWV
02-24-2013, 07:49 AM
Yes. Even though all taxes are arguably unethical, the property tax is one of the most absurd. As far as I know, land is the only asset that's taxed just because you own it. You don't pay taxes just for owning a car, a computer or stock that doesn't change in value, but you do for land in most places.

It's a small reason why I don't bother buying a house. Why should I pour all my money into a mortgage downpayment, assume all the risk, pay interest, and still pay the taxes?

It's about as absurd as the income tax. It's the same principle. Tax land just because you own it and tax your money just because you make it.

On the other hand, renting doesn't really help you avoid that. There's a reason rent rates are as high as they are. Part of that is property taxes. Renting is way more expensive no matter how you look at it, and it gives you no security, whereas owning a home provides you with stability, more rights, and it's also just cheaper in most cases. Renting is for those who can't afford to buy and prefer to be slaves all their lives just to pay for a place to live. They could lose it at a moment's notice (relatively) but at least they have a roof over their head... for now.

fr33
02-24-2013, 08:01 AM
So far the vote is unanimous. I hope it stays that way. That's progress.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 08:27 AM
I think property taxes are unethical, but not worse than other taxes.

brandon
02-24-2013, 08:37 AM
In the way they are currently used, definitely. There are some benefits to them though. If it weren't for property taxes wealthy people could acquire huge areas of land and just never use it, but at the same time prevent other people from using it. And the local government has to be funded somehow.

I could probably support a Georgist property tax that is based only on the value of the unimproved land - and not on what you build on the land. This also minimizes the completely impossible problem of assessing property value for tax purposes. A community could just have a flat rate like $1,000 an acre or whatever is reasonable for the area.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 08:46 AM
In the way they are currently used, definitely. There are some benefits to them though. If it weren't for property taxes wealthy people could acquire huge areas of land and just never use it, but at the same time prevent other people from using it. And the local government has to be funded somehow.

I could probably support a Georgist property tax that is based only on the value of the unimproved land - and not on what you build on the land. This also minimizes the completely impossible problem of assessing property value for tax purposes. A community could just have a flat rate like $1,000 an acre or whatever is reasonable for the area.

+1

I would also include some kind of voucher or homestead exemption so that people could have enough land to live on without paying taxes on it.

liveandletlive
02-24-2013, 08:48 AM
i would say the government raising the property taxes on Hurricane Sandy victim's property is a complete disgrace too...these people just had their homes leveled for chrissake.

2young2vote
02-24-2013, 08:59 AM
I don't really view it as any more or less unethical than any other tax. The government is going to steal some of your freedoms away if you don't pay your taxes, no matter what type of taxes they are.

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 09:05 AM
The government is going to steal some of your freedoms away.

Fixed that for you.

otherone
02-24-2013, 09:18 AM
Private property died with the advent of the IRS.
No one owns anything in America. At best we have "conditional privilege of use".

ClydeCoulter
02-24-2013, 09:44 AM
@brandon, $1,000.00 an acre? Damn, that's awful high, I'm only paying just over a thousand for my house, large shop and 11 acres now. How about 0.00-10.00 per acre.

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 09:52 AM
@brandon, $1,000.00 an acre? Damn, that's awful high, I'm only paying just over a thousand for my house, large shop and 11 acres now. How about 0.00-10.00 per acre.

"We've already established what you are, ma'am. Now we're just haggling over the price."

brandon
02-24-2013, 11:12 AM
@brandon, $1,000.00 an acre? Damn, that's awful high, I'm only paying just over a thousand for my house, large shop and 11 acres now. How about 0.00-10.00 per acre.


Well true really depends on the area. Where I live an undeveloped quarter acre lot runs like $1500/year in taxes. This is suburbia though... obviously those rates wont fly in farm land.

seapilot
02-24-2013, 11:14 AM
Any thing taken by force or threat of force from an honest person by another person is unethical.

As for property taxes they are rent as long as the government has the power to take it away if a person stops paying the rent. A person does not get to decide to pay taxes or where its spent. At times a person gets to vote on whether or not to increase the rent never or extremely rare they get to vote for it to decrease.

To beat property taxes over the long term it must be done at a local level. I have thought of a way to start to do this. An example is a person pays property tax for 20 years and after that they no longer have to pay taxes on it and the government can no longer claim ownership on it. Once that person passes on or sells it the new owner would be required to pay taxes on it up to the 20 years. This way older persons would not lose their home in retirement or illness. Something like this could pass at the local level. It would be viewed as a person having paid "their fair share" into the system so those many local governing bodies would look bad if they spoke up against it.

It would not be perfect of course as the perfect would be no taxation. The system needs to reverse and it can not do it all at once, it has to be the same way that it got to this point a little at a time.

GunnyFreedom
02-24-2013, 11:19 AM
If you have any kind of property tax at all, you may as well call your country full-blown communist IMHO, because it means nobody owns property but the government. The mundanes just rent it. That $150,000 land and house package is completely paid off? No problem...miss a few government rent payments, and you will be out on your backside.

Or to make it more obvious, let's say you are genuinely disabled and can't work for whatever reason. Your parents of course let you stay with them. They manage to pay off the house and MAYBE have a few dollars stashed away in an account, but then they die. House is paid off? Who cares, you missed you last 2 rent payments to the State. Good luck finding a bridge to live under, mundane.

No, sorry, property tax is the more egregious tax because it's mere existence means nobody owns property, therefore we technically live under full-blown communism.

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 11:27 AM
Well true really depends on the area. Where I live an undeveloped quarter acre lot runs like $1500/year in taxes. This is suburbia though... obviously those rates wont fly in farm land.

I think we should appoint you to determine what is fair.

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 11:29 AM
If you have any kind of property tax at all, you may as well call your country full-blown communist IMHO, because it means nobody owns property but the government. The mundanes just rent it. That $150,000 land and house package is completely paid off? No problem...miss a few government rent payments, and you will be out on your backside.

Or to make it more obvious, let's say you are genuinely disabled and can't work for whatever reason. Your parents of course let you stay with them. They manage to pay off the house and MAYBE have a few dollars stashed away in an account, but then they die. House is paid off? Who cares, you missed you last 2 rent payments to the State. Good luck finding a bridge to live under, mundane.

No, sorry, property tax is the more egregious tax because it's mere existence means nobody owns property, therefore we technically live under full-blown communism.

+ rep for logical consistency, sir.

CaptLouAlbano
02-24-2013, 11:36 AM
I believe they are unethical. But I also believe that a municipality has the right (for lack of a better term) through their elected representatives in local government to determine which services the municipality will provide and the means by which they will collect revenues to finance those services.

brandon
02-24-2013, 11:48 AM
I think we should appoint you to determine what is fair.

Well I guess you missed my point because I certainly wasn't saying we need a czar to tell people what their property rates are.

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 11:51 AM
Well I guess you missed my point because I certainly wasn't saying we need a czar to tell people what their property rates are.

But that would certainly be more efficient.

brandon
02-24-2013, 11:52 AM
But that would certainly be more efficient.

how so?

tttppp
02-24-2013, 11:54 AM
Property taxes violates basic tax theory that you are only suppose to tax what people have. That is why income taxes are not based on your income from your financial statements.

osan
02-24-2013, 11:59 AM
It always bothered me homeowners have to pay property tax. What bothers me more is if you don't pay the property tax the government reserves the right to take your home. This downright makes it rent. Does the state/county have the right to possess your property because you won't pay a tax on it, even if you are unemployed and have no income to be taxed?

All taxation is theft, and therefore criminal.

End of story.

Next.

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 12:00 PM
how so?

You seem to have your finger on the pulse of what is a fair property tax.

ClydeCoulter
02-24-2013, 12:16 PM
"We've already established what you are, ma'am. Now we're just haggling over the price."

No, I voted correcly, "YES" :) I'm just saying if I'm gonna get screwed it ought to pay good (ie, ought to cost me less, don't take more from me).

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 12:19 PM
No, I voted correcly, "YES" :) I'm just saying if I'm gonna get screwed it ought to pay good (ie, ought to cost me less, don't take more from me).

I got your point; I was just applying the old G.B. Shaw story to the whole concept - once one accepts the principle of sanctioned theft, all that is left is to haggle over the price.

You and I rightfully reject the entire concept. It's sad that even, at this point, 3 people here do NOT reject it.

oyarde
02-24-2013, 12:49 PM
I actually think that property tax could be worse than other taxes.If I do not pay some of the others they do not confiscate my home...

ClydeCoulter
02-24-2013, 12:57 PM
I actually think that property tax could be worse than other taxes.If I do not pay some of the others they do not confiscate my home...

Is that true (I don't know off the top of my head)? What will they do if you don't pay income tax?

ctiger2
02-24-2013, 01:03 PM
There should be 0% primary residence property tax.

I could see a luxury tax on non-primary residences. This would keep the people afraid of land/property hoarders at bay.

cbc58
02-24-2013, 01:08 PM
I am not going to argue that there should be property taxes - but how would local govt's and schools survive without them? what is your alternative?

What should be illegal is huge discounts on taxes for property in "current use". That is the scam of the century that large property owners have conned the public into buying. Get rid of that and taxes would drop for everyone else...

KrokHead
02-24-2013, 01:09 PM
Property taxes wouldn't be as big of a problem if Americans weren't dummies and kept increasing their school budgets.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 01:16 PM
I am not going to argue that there should be property taxes - but how would local govt's and schools survive without them? what is your alternative?


If you think that any schools at all should be funded by taking any money at all from any people at all against their will using any means at all, then you're coming from a different perspective from the people who answered the poll with a yes.

oyarde
02-24-2013, 01:21 PM
Is that true (I don't know off the top of my head)? What will they do if you don't pay income tax?

Say I do not pay my state tax, they will send you shitty letters, file a lien, say I do not pay my seatbelt fine , they do not come and take my vehicle ... if I do not renew my license plate , they do nothing ....

erowe1
02-24-2013, 01:26 PM
say I do not pay my seatbelt fine , they do not come and take my vehicle

I once had a ticket for a burned out light that required me to get it fixed and send in some kind of form saying I did, which I didn't do. My car's tag numbers were marked in the police data base as a car to impound next time I got pulled over, which happened soon after.

otherone
02-24-2013, 01:26 PM
There should be 0% primary residence property tax.

I could see a luxury tax on non-primary residences. This would keep the people afraid of land/property hoarders at bay.

Personally, I have no problem with capital gains taxes, as investment is voluntary. I have no problem with corporate taxes, as incorporating is voluntary. Taxing wages is slavery. Taking possession of private property as a consequence of failure to pay taxes only shows who ultimately owns the property.

heavenlyboy34
02-24-2013, 01:27 PM
I am not going to argue that there should be property taxes - but how would local govt's and schools survive without them? what is your alternative?

What should be illegal is huge discounts on taxes for property in "current use". That is the scam of the century that large property owners have conned the public into buying. Get rid of that and taxes would drop for everyone else...
WRT this^^ and all similar questions, just donate money directly to the "cause", whatever it is. Do you know it's already possible to make "patriotic donations" to the IRS? No reason you can't do that for your local and state treasuries.

oyarde
02-24-2013, 01:34 PM
I once had a ticket for a burned out light that required me to get it fixed and send in some kind of form saying I did, which I didn't do. My car's tag numbers were marked in the police data base as a car to impound next time I got pulled over, which happened soon after.

Where I am they will give you a warning ticket, if you do not fix it , they get you again , a ticket.

EBounding
02-24-2013, 01:45 PM
It's about as absurd as the income tax. It's the same principle. Tax land just because you own it and tax your money just because you make it.

On the other hand, renting doesn't really help you avoid that. There's a reason rent rates are as high as they are. Part of that is property taxes. Renting is way more expensive no matter how you look at it, and it gives you no security, whereas owning a home provides you with stability, more rights, and it's also just cheaper in most cases. Renting is for those who can't afford to buy and prefer to be slaves all their lives just to pay for a place to live. They could lose it at a moment's notice (relatively) but at least they have a roof over their head... for now.

I hate to sound like I'm defending the income tax, but your earnings are just taxed once whereas your property is taxed every year forever. If I keep my money under the mattress or in a 0% yield account, it's not going to be taxed again, except when I die I guess.

It's true that renting doesn't help you avoid property taxes, but it kind of "smooths out" the tax payments and large surprises (maintenance, repairs, price fluctuations). You can get similar security by getting a long-term lease. Plus there is the benefit of being able to move quickly. Of course, I have to pay a premium to the landlord (his profit) for this service. But for me, it's better than pouring all my money and retirement savings into an illiquid building that I don't expect to be in 3 years from now.

That's just my situation though. Not saying buying a house is always bad, but pretty much everything about "owning" a house involves rent. You rent the land from the city/state through property taxes, you rent the mortgage money from the bank, and you have to pay the rent-seeking REALTORŪ cartel to buy/sell the house. Plus the asset you own won't necessarily appreciate in value.

GunnyFreedom
02-24-2013, 01:51 PM
Is that true (I don't know off the top of my head)? What will they do if you don't pay income tax?

The confiscate your person and give you a new home.

tangent4ronpaul
02-24-2013, 01:57 PM
Say I do not pay my state tax, they will send you shitty letters, file a lien, say I do not pay my seatbelt fine , they do not come and take my vehicle ... if I do not renew my license plate , they do nothing ....

I got a letter once from the IRS saying that I owed them money from a couple of years previously (not sure why) and if I didn't pay up in a week, they would seize my property. It went on to explain that they would first seize my state taxes, and only if that didn't cover it would they seize my property. Needless to say the IRS got their $500+ post haste!

Interesting how now the IRS can seize taxes paid to the state...

I've had my car impounded for expired emission stickers and an expired licence.


I once had a ticket for a burned out light that required me to get it fixed and send in some kind of form saying I did, which I didn't do. My car's tag numbers were marked in the police data base as a car to impound next time I got pulled over, which happened soon after.

Number of years ago had a roomie, who asked if he could use my car from time to time. Grocery shopping - stuff like that. I said I'd think about it and talk to my insurance company. They said no problem. They would send out a 2 page forum and depending on what it says their might be a slight raise in my rates. OK, so I get the forum and roomie takes a look at it, crumples it up and tosses it saying fuck that!. I didn't think anything more of it until my insurance didn't auto-renew, I got a notice that my licence plates were being revoked. So I went down to the MVA to try and figure out what's up... hours and hours of waiting in lines and on the phone, it turns out that failing to return that forum blocks your automatic renewal of insurance. It also turns out that the MVA and cops have direct access to the insurance company database...

Took a couple of full days to straighten out ans some serious cash and BS...

:mad:

-t

jabowery
02-24-2013, 02:01 PM
In the state of nature (society prior to binding contract or gang-like associations) an individual has the ability to defend what might be called his "natural property" against the aggression of other individual males, as does any animal defend access to the vital necessities. It is reasonable to interpret this, in modern terms, as exclusive access to enough land to raise children to viable adult hood.

Therefore when individuals enter into what Spooner calls a "mutual insurance company" for the protection of their property rights beyond "natural property" against other gang-like associations, the terms of that contract are entirely voluntary, and the individual's stake in the company may be considered to include his natural property under whatever terms to which he voluntarily agrees.

This has the effect, in practice, of sorting proponents of political theories into governments that test them.

oyarde
02-24-2013, 02:03 PM
The confiscate your person and give you a new home.

Which would be fairly retarded in itself if you think about it .They have relieved you of further income for them to bleed and now pay to house you instead.Where is the math logic in that ??

A Son of Liberty
02-24-2013, 02:06 PM
Which would be fairly retarded in itself if you think about it .They have relieved you of further income for them to bleed and now pay to house you instead.Where is the math logic in that ??

It keeps the other sheep docile, and happy enough to be shorn. They think they're free.

tangent4ronpaul
02-24-2013, 02:11 PM
Which would be fairly retarded in itself if you think about it .They have relieved you of further income for them to bleed and now pay to house you instead.Where is the math logic in that ??

Well, lets see. They steal your home, sell it for a windfall profit, and then extort whoever moves in or they repeat the cycle.

House you where? In the projects? They aren't going to pay too much to do that, and the state probably gets the feds to pay for most of it.

-t

GunnyFreedom
02-24-2013, 02:25 PM
Well, lets see. They steal your home, sell it for a windfall profit, and then extort whoever moves in or they repeat the cycle.

House you where? In the projects? They aren't going to pay too much to do that, and the state probably gets the feds to pay for most of it.

-t

Federal Penitentiary.

GunnyFreedom
02-24-2013, 02:26 PM
Which would be fairly retarded in itself if you think about it .They have relieved you of further income for them to bleed and now pay to house you instead.Where is the math logic in that ??

If you are looking for logic in that nonsense, don't ask me. :p

fisharmor
02-24-2013, 02:53 PM
If you are looking for logic in that nonsense, don't ask me. :p

It makes perfect sense as long as you never put a moment's thought into whether the system is at all sustainable.
In just about three decades of paying attention, I've never known the state in general to be much concerned with that.

DamianTV
02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
Its ridiculously unethical. A society that can not own land can never be free.

Not just Land, but ANY form of Property. The basis on which our Rights are founded is that You Own Yourself.

If one has to pay a tax on any form of property, the result is that one does not truly own their property, but merely rent or borrow from the Real Owners. Sales Tax is one thing. A tax on the transaction of the sale of a product (not service, that is to claim ownership of the labor that one performs). But once a thing is owned outright, no further taxes can be imposed without declaring the owner to not be the real owner.

This also applies to Income Tax. Income Tax operates under the fallacy that you do not own the labor that you do, thus, the Govt is entitled to your work, making you a slave to the Govt. It doesnt matter if they take 0.0001% of your income, or 100%. If you can not claim 100% ownership of your possessions or the work that you do, then you do not Own Yourself and are thereby in definition, a Slave, which is the polar opposite of Free.

ClydeCoulter
02-24-2013, 06:15 PM
And if we paid directly for a teacher, then they would remember who they work for. Instead, they seem to think they are in control and that they work for the gov (who is that?) instead of us.

BAllen
02-24-2013, 07:27 PM
And if we paid directly for a teacher, then they would remember who they work for. Instead, they seem to think they are in control and that they work for the gov (who is that?) instead of us.

Then how would the govt program the next generation?

Wesker1982
02-24-2013, 07:46 PM
All taxation is theft. (http://wesker1982.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/taxation-is-theft/) So... YEP.

brandon
02-24-2013, 08:17 PM
I know the Austrian dogma is that monopolies are impossible in a free market. I kind of agree. Land ownership is the one thing that gives me doubt though. What if a single company bought the entire waterfront on a 100 mile stretch of a major river? No one else could use the river but them. There would be no competition. If there were no property taxes it would cost them nothing to maintain the blockade. Property tax is the one driving force that makes it uneconomical for a company to hold land they aren't using.

I'm all for private property ownership in most cases, but the concept of owning land that you don't use doesn't sit quite right with me.

brandon
02-24-2013, 08:21 PM
All taxation is theft. (http://wesker1982.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/taxation-is-theft/) So... YEP.

All taxation may be theft, but all land ownership can be looked at as theft too. The Europeans came here and stole it from the people that were currently using it. We are trading in stolen goods. Land ownership is a government construct. Without a government enforcing your property lines they wouldn't exist.

purplechoe
02-24-2013, 08:27 PM
yup, we're pretty much there...

http://manifestliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/559334_405302432861127_2065019139_n.jpg

CT4Liberty
02-25-2013, 07:07 AM
I've actually been writing up something specifically about this. Property tax, is probably the most heinous and overtly immoral tax we have as it completely goes against the basic tenant of property rights.

If someone has the ability to tax something, for no other reason than because they can...then they are the legal owners of it. This would mean that we do not have any property rights, the government is the sole owner of our houses and cars and we merely rent them.

Once I'm done working on my piece I'll post here for some suggestions and feedback, heres a snippet:


It has come to occur to me that not all taxes are created equal and while I do not presume to know the most just, I do find certain taxes to be more egregious than others.

The first to which I find so overtly immoral is the Property Tax. I believe that one of, if not the, most important roles of any Government is the protection of Property Rights. It is the most basic principle of any society that you may not steal from your neighbor. It is also imperative, in a free society, that any person is entitled to the fruits of their labor and thus without private property, there can be no Liberty.

The idea that the simple act of owning property gives the Government the right to tax it means that there is no ownership of property at all. If the Government, by use of force, can confiscate an individual’s home or vehicle for failure to pay a tax on it, then by that very definition the ownership lies solely with the Government, the individual is merely a renter.

CT4Liberty
02-25-2013, 07:17 AM
All taxation is theft. (http://wesker1982.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/taxation-is-theft/) So... YEP.

I dont know if everyone agrees with the definition of a usage fee as a tax or not...but if you do, then I dont consider that theft.

If they pay for a bridge/highway with tolls, and you only pay those tolls by using the bridge/highway...then I do not consider that theft. Same with a garbage service, etc. If a town wants to provide a garbage service and charges a fee for using it, as long as they dont outlaw other people from creating their own garbage service and charging for it, to create competition, I dont see the issue (although, I have a feeling the government run service will quickly be put out of business via lower prices/better service of the private companies)

Danan
02-25-2013, 07:36 AM
I dont know if everyone agrees with the definition of a usage fee as a tax or not...but if you do, then I dont consider that theft.

If they pay for a bridge/highway with tolls, and you only pay those tolls by using the bridge/highway...then I do not consider that theft. Same with a garbage service, etc. If a town wants to provide a garbage service and charges a fee for using it, as long as they dont outlaw other people from creating their own garbage service and charging for it, to create competition, I dont see the issue (although, I have a feeling the government run service will quickly be put out of business via lower prices/better service of the private companies)

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tax

Definition of tax
noun
1a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions:
higher taxes will dampen consumer spending
a tax on fuel

I don't see fees, tolls, etc. as taxes. But as you mentioned it gets complicated if they demand tolls for highways or fees for schools and at the same time prohibit private competition or at least hamper competition in a way a participant in a free market couldn't do it. Although I still wouldn't see the toll/fee as the main problem in that case, but rather the additional laws/regulations/etc. that impede the free market.

CT4Liberty
02-25-2013, 08:24 AM
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tax


I don't see fees, tolls, etc. as taxes. But as you mentioned it gets complicated if they demand tolls for highways or fees for schools and at the same time prohibit private competition or at least hamper competition in a way a participant in a free market couldn't do it. Although I still wouldn't see the toll/fee as the main problem in that case, but rather the additional laws/regulations/etc. that impede the free market.

Yeah - definitely not everyone agrees that a government usage fee is a tax... personally, I see anything the government makes me pay as a tax, so a toll is a tax to me and one that I dont think is a bad way of going about it.

Danan
02-25-2013, 08:39 AM
Yeah - definitely not everyone agrees that a government usage fee is a tax... personally, I see anything the government makes me pay as a tax, so a toll is a tax to me and one that I dont think is a bad way of going about it.

If they are just as any other private usage fees, why putting them in a different category? To be a tax, a payment has to have a uniquely defining cretrion imho. And that is: you have to pay for a service whether or not you want to use it and irrespective to what extend.

Or to put it differently, a transaction on an unregulated market that is not the result of voluntary trade between individuals is based on taxation. Also, if a voluntary transaction that would occur on a free market cannot happen due to regulation and instead the second best public option is chosen "voluntarily" via payment of a fee to a public entity, that might still be called a special form of taxation.

BAllen
02-25-2013, 11:01 AM
yup, we're pretty much there...

http://manifestliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/559334_405302432861127_2065019139_n.jpg

That's amazing. Right to the point. Where did you get that? We need pamphlets like that to hand out.