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alucard13mmfmj
02-22-2013, 04:06 PM
RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — A new North Carolina driver's license set to be issued to some illegal immigrants has a bright pink stripe and the bold words "NO LAWFUL STATUS," raising concerns about whether the design will brand those who show it.

The North Carolina Division of Motor Vehicles announced last week they would begin issuing the licenses March 25 following a lengthy legal review. The Obama administration's Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program grants valid federal work permits to qualified applicants brought to the U.S. as children without legal authorization.

Some Republican lawmakers in the state have balked at the idea, filing a bill Thursday to bar the DMV from granting the licenses until at least June.

Cinthia Marroquin, a 22-year-old Raleigh resident awaiting approval for a DACA permit, said the longer the license issue is delayed, the longer it will take for her to get a job and drive herself to work. Even if she is able to get one, she is worried about presenting a license declaring she has "NO LAWFUL STATUS" at a police roadblock or while writing a check at the grocery store.

"A lot of us are just scared," said Marroquin, who came to the U.S. from Mexico when she was 15. "We just want to be able to get a job and drive to work. Having that license is just going to show everybody you're here illegally, just buying a beer or writing a check. You don't know how people might react."

The American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina also takes issue with the designation.

"North Carolina should not be making it harder for aspiring citizens to integrate and contribute to our communities by branding them with a second-class driver's license," said ACLU attorney Raul Pinto. "There is simply no reason for officials to stigmatize people who are in the U.S. legally with an unnecessary marker that could lead to harassment, confusion, and racial profiling."

Almost from the moment President Barack Obama announced the program in June, states across the country grappled with how and whether to issue driver's licenses to those granted legal presence.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has said it is up to officials in each state to make their own determination about what to do. Many states, such as Oregon and Georgia, have announced that they will grant driving privileges to those eligible.

In Arizona, where Republican Gov. Jan Brewer has pledged that DACA youths will not get driver's licenses, the state's DMV still lists federal work permits among the documents making people eligible for one.

The issue is especially politically charged in North Carolina, where current state law ordains a driver's license will be issued to anyone who holds valid federal documentation of their "legal presence" in the United States.

The office of the state's Democratic attorney general in an opinion last month said that under federal law, DACA participants have a "legal presence," even if they do not have "lawful status." Therefore, state law requires that DACA participants be granted licenses. Republican Gov. Pat McCrory's administration agreed, announcing last week the DMV would begin issuing the licenses.

That has upset many conservatives in McCrory's own party, including Rep. Mark Brody (R-Union). He is one of four freshmen legislators who introduced a bill Thursday to bar DMV from issuing licenses to DACA participants before June 15, potentially giving time to craft a permanent change to state law.

Brody said he believes strongly that the DACA program violated the U.S. Constitution because it was implemented without congressional approval. Obama said last year he was forced to take executive action by the decades-long failure of Congress to consider meaningful immigration reform.

"We need a time out," said Brody, a construction contractor. "We don't need to have the federal government dictating to us how we are supposed to issue licenses in this state. We do it, and that's a privilege we have under our Constitution."

Among the concerns raised by Brody and other bill sponsors is that illegal immigrants might use their new licenses to access social programs or register to vote, despite the bright pink markings. An extensive 2011 review of the state's 6.4 million registered voters by the N.C. Board of Elections found 12 instances were a non-citizen successfully cast a ballot.

Jose Rico, a 23-year-old Raleigh resident from Mexico who has already been issued DACA work permit, said he plans to be in line at the DMV on March 25 to get a license, even if it's pink. He will be extremely disappointed if state legislators pass a bill delaying or a denying his ability to do so.

"I don't know what's wrong with these people, why they're so afraid of people like me," said Rico, who has lived in the U.S. since he was 13. "It's so frustrating. I passed a federal background check, done everything right by the book. I'm paying taxes. I mean, we're just kids trying to go to school."

erowe1
02-22-2013, 04:08 PM
How does the state of NC know if someone doesn't have lawful status? Do they assume none of us do unless we give them some kind of proof?

jkr
02-22-2013, 04:49 PM
I WANT ONE!

aGameOfThrones
02-22-2013, 05:07 PM
"A lot of us are just scared," said Marroquin, who came to the U.S. from Mexico when she was 15. "We just want to be able to get a job and drive to work. Having that license is just going to show everybody you're here illegally, just buying a beer or writing a check. You don't know how people might react."

It will probably confirm what people already thought when they saw you.


Mexicans always thinking about buying beer and writing bad checks.

Michelangelo
02-22-2013, 06:08 PM
It will probably confirm what people already thought when they saw you.


Mexicans always thinking about buying beer and writing bad checks.

I'm a teetoler actually.

Privatize the roads and the issuance of driving licenses. One's immigration status should be no more relevant to driving than it is when buying a Ron Paul shirt.

dannno
02-22-2013, 06:16 PM
Ban work permits. Solved.

alucard13mmfmj
02-23-2013, 09:01 PM
I'm a teetoler actually.

Privatize the roads and the issuance of driving licenses. One's immigration status should be no more relevant to driving than it is when buying a Ron Paul shirt.

yo bro, where is your avatar from?

Michelangelo
02-23-2013, 09:12 PM
yo bro, where is your avatar from?

It's Feito from Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha.

@Donna

I like your plan. What sort of world do we live in where you need permission to work?

alucard13mmfmj
02-23-2013, 09:25 PM
It's Feito from Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha.

@Donna

I like your plan. What sort of world do we live in where you need permission to work?

ah i see it now. lol.

fr33
02-23-2013, 10:10 PM
What sort of world do we live in where you need permission to work?

A fascist police state.

BAllen
02-24-2013, 08:15 AM
They already get regular licenses in this state anyway. All this does, is put a pink stripe on it. Why would Republicans oppose this? I oppose them getting ANY driver's license in the first place.
This will make them easier to identify.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 08:24 AM
They already get regular licenses in this state anyway. All this does, is put a pink stripe on it. Why would Republicans oppose this? I oppose them getting ANY driver's license in the first place.
This will make them easier to identify.

How does the state know whose licenses to put the pink stripe on?

RonPaulFanInGA
02-24-2013, 08:31 AM
How does the state know whose licenses to put the pink stripe on?

If the article is any indication, some just openly admit to it.

ghengis86
02-24-2013, 08:44 AM
Am I missing something? If they need a pink stripe, why not send them home or start the naturalization process or give them a temporary work visa application, etc, etc.?

UMULAS
02-24-2013, 09:14 AM
.......

thoughtomator
02-24-2013, 09:19 AM
Am I missing something? If they need a pink stripe, why not send them home or start the naturalization process or give them a temporary work visa application, etc, etc.?

Because in bizarro America, you can be here illegally and still get legal permission to drive while you're illegally here.

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 09:28 AM
Disgusting that they'll even give illegals a license. They should be deported and have to wait at the back of the line before all the honest people who go through to proper process.

asurfaholic
02-24-2013, 09:40 AM
I support the giving of drivers licenses to anyone who demonstrates the ability to drive safely. Some people let their prejudices against brown people cloud their good sense, but i for one welcome anyone who is willing to come work as hard and efficiently as most mexicans do. If they are here, following the laws as good as they can, lets not deny them the basic right to drive down a public road and buy groceries.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 09:48 AM
If the article is any indication, some just openly admit to it.

I'm guessing that there's more going on.

The state has to require some proof that you have lawful status in order not to get the pink stripe.

CPUd
02-24-2013, 09:52 AM
http://i.imgur.com/37Vh2FN.jpg

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 09:54 AM
I'm guessing that there's more going on.

The state has to require some proof that you have lawful status in order not to get the pink stripe.

In NC you have to provide two of the following to get your DL:


Out-of-State Driver License
Original Birth Certificate
Original Social Security Card
Unexpired U.S. Military ID/Military Dependents Card
Valid Unexpired Passport
Limited Driving Privilege issued by N.C.
Valid Unexpired documents issued by the U.S. Bureau of Immigration Services
U.S. Veterans Universal Access Card

Pretty hard to get any of those if you're an illegal alien.

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 09:55 AM
I support the giving of drivers licenses to anyone who demonstrates the ability to drive safely. Some people let their prejudices against brown people cloud their good sense, but i for one welcome anyone who is willing to come work as hard and efficiently as most mexicans do. If they are here, following the laws as good as they can, lets not deny them the basic right to drive down a public road and buy groceries.

What does being against illegal immigration have to do with 'prejudices against brown people?' This isn't about their race, this is about the law.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 09:56 AM
In NC you have to provide two of the following to get your DL:



Pretty hard to get any of those if you're an illegal alien.

Are you fine with them requiring any of us to have those?

erowe1
02-24-2013, 09:57 AM
What does being against illegal immigration have to do with 'prejudices against brown people?' This isn't about their race, this is about the law.

Would you support changing the law so that illegal immigration wouldn't be illegal any more?

The Goat
02-24-2013, 10:08 AM
Would you support changing the law so that illegal immigration wouldn't be illegal any more?


There a lot like jim crow laws. lol

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 10:30 AM
Would you support changing the law so that illegal immigration wouldn't be illegal any more?

No. I do think that the law should be changed to make high-skilled immigration easier, though.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 10:34 AM
No. I do think that the law should be changed to make high-skilled immigration easier, though.

Then it's not really just about the law, like you said. It's about something else. And if not race, then what?

MRK
02-24-2013, 12:06 PM
No. I do think that the law should be changed to make high-skilled immigration easier, though.

What difference does it make? Are 'high skills' somehow more valuable than 'low skills'?

And if all the 'high skill' immigrants in the world come, what do you think will do to the labor market of people with 'high skills'?

thoughtomator
02-24-2013, 12:07 PM
They've already driven the unskilled part of America into abject poverty, so there's no more gains to be made there.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 12:18 PM
They've already driven the unskilled part of America into abject poverty, so there's no more gains to be made there.

Good. Then we can let them in without people whining about someone taking their job.

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 12:28 PM
What difference does it make? Are 'high skills' somehow more valuable than 'low skills'?

And if all the 'high skill' immigrants in the world come, what do you think will do to the labor market of people with 'high skills'?

Who said anything about letting "all" of them in? I completely object to that. I also object to more low-skilled workers coming in. We have more than enough.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 12:30 PM
Who said anything about letting "all" of them in? I completely object to that. I also object to more low-skilled workers coming in. We have more than enough.

So don't hire them. But what right do you have to stop me from hiring them?

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 12:30 PM
Then it's not really just about the law, like you said. It's about something else. And if not race, then what?

When I said it's about the law I meant they are in direct violation of US law, as opposed to those honest people who actually apply and come here through the proper channels. If your first act on American soil is breaking the law, I don't think you should be allowed to stay in the US.

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 12:31 PM
So don't hire them. But what right do you have to stop me from hiring them?

Go ahead, hire them and sponsor their work visa.

Michelangelo
02-24-2013, 12:31 PM
Who said anything about letting "all" of them in? I completely object to that. I also object to more low-skilled workers coming in. We have more than enough.

You've mastered the art of central planning the market? Why haven't you advertised this more?

Tell me, do we have enough oranges in San Francisco? Oh, and how many tons of steel are needed in St. Petersburg next year?

erowe1
02-24-2013, 12:34 PM
When I said it's about the law I meant they are in direct violation of US law

Right. But if we changed the law so that illegal immigration were legal, they wouldn't be in direct violation of the law.

You don't just want them to obey the law. You want to have laws that limit immigration in the first place. So again, when you said it was "about the law," you didn't really mean it.

This gets us back to the question of what it really is about. Is it race?

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 12:35 PM
You've mastered the art of central planning the market? Why haven't you advertised this more?

Tell me, do we have enough oranges in San Francisco? Oh, and how many tons of steel are needed in St. Petersburg next year?

Who said anything about central planning? If a business wants to hire a foreign worker let them sponsor a work visa for that worker. If you want to move to the US, do it legally. I know that's a hard concept for you to understand.


For full disclosure I am an illegal immigrant.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 12:35 PM
Go ahead, hire them and sponsor their work visa.

What if I just pay them cash and not tell the government about it. You support my right to do that, don't you?

Or do you want the government to be able to keep tabs on who all we hire to work for us?

cbc58
02-24-2013, 12:36 PM
I can't think of one good thing to say about illegal immigrants. As a rule, they suck from the system without paying anything in. I live in NC in an area of high illegal immigrant activity and can say that with real world experience.
Anyone who employs them is just as bad and should be fined and go to jail.

Let them come here legally and through the proper channels and I will welcome them with open arms - but dealing with illegals tells me the majority of them scam the system without putting anything back in. Everyone else pays for this through increased medical costs, education costs, taxes, etc.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 12:37 PM
Who said anything about central planning? If a business wants to hire a foreign worker let them sponsor a work visa for that worker. If you want to move to the US, do it legally. I know that's a hard concept for you to understand.

Do you think there should be any limits on the number of work visas?

If you do, that's central planning. If you don't, then what's the point of having work visas?

erowe1
02-24-2013, 12:42 PM
I can't think of one good thing to say about illegal immigrants. As a rule, they suck from the system without paying anything in. I live in NC in an area of high illegal immigrant activity and can say that with real world experience.
Anyone who employs them is just as bad and should be fined and go to jail.

Let them come here legally and through the proper channels and I will welcome them with open arms - but dealing with illegals tells me the majority of them scam the system without putting anything back in. Everyone else pays for this through increased medical costs, education costs, taxes, etc.

It seems like what you're against is anybody who sucks from the system without paying into it, whether they're illegal immigrants or not.

So illegal immigrants who don't do that should be free to stay, and natural-born citizens who do do that should be deported. Is that right?

TokenLibertarianGuy
02-24-2013, 12:45 PM
Right. But if we changed the law so that illegal immigration were legal, they wouldn't be in direct violation of the law.

You don't just want them to obey the law. You want to have laws that limit immigration in the first place. So again, when you said it was "about the law," you didn't really mean it.

This gets us back to the question of what it really is about. Is it race?Had a long reply written and my dog jumped on my lap and closed my browser somehow. Can't be bothered to rewrite it...

But no, it's not about race.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 12:48 PM
Had a long reply written and my dog jumped on my lap and closed my browser somehow. Can't be bothered to rewrite it...

But no, it's not about race.

I can believe that.

But just don't pretend it's about the law. The line that anti-immigration people frequently use that the only reason they're against illegal immigration is that it's illegal is proven false every time they admit that they don't support legalizing it.

cbc58
02-24-2013, 12:53 PM
That's not it at all - and - you are making stupid and illogical arguments in an attempt to express an opinion.

Wallrat
02-24-2013, 01:01 PM
IMHO the DLs for Illegals is more about establishing voting rights for states where they have driver/voter laws. Since they (Mexicans) mostly go Democratic, the Dems want their votes and so support the issuing of DL's. For the same reason (votes and good PR), the R's want their votes and don't want to be seen as 'racist'. FFS, if they want all these illegals to be 'licensed', just require them to get US insurance and recognize the Mexican/foreign licenses to be valid in the US. That's what Mexico does to us, and it seems to work fine.

Michelangelo
02-24-2013, 01:07 PM
Who said anything about central planning? If a business wants to hire a foreign worker let them sponsor a work visa for that worker. If you want to move to the US, do it legally. I know that's a hard concept for you to understand.

You said we had enough low skilled workers. That implies you believe that we should cap low skilled workers coming abroad. Hence central planning.

Yet the fact that employers continue to employ illegal aliens shows that the market disagrees with you. The demand for foreign labour is there and will be supplied. The question is whether it will be supplied by the white market (legal immigration) or the black market (illegal immigration).

As for letting people in on a work visa, in principle it's a nice idea. Except work visas as they exist today don't have any real option to let low skilled workers. When they exist at all they are subject to national quotas or so absurdly high that employers and/or potential legal employees can't pay it. The effects are similar to a tax if you would.

In order for work visas to work we need to do away with national quotas and decrease the cost of acquiring them.

If you'd prefer, the problem can be thought of similar to the War on Drugs. You can increase enforcement all you want. You can send violators to increasingly higher prison terms. You can send them to work camps. It will not win the war. All you will do is increasingly push the drug sector into the black market. You'll have more violence and more deaths. But you won't win the drug war. As long as there is a demand for drugs it will be supplied. You can either end the War on Drugs and minimize losses by bringing the sector into the white market or you can continue to escalate the violence.

Similarly you can build all the fences you want. You can shoot illegal aliens off cannons. As long as there is a demand for foreign labour it will be supplied.

Should those aliens who applied to enter legally be processed for legal status before illegals are? Definitely. Should illegals have to go at the back of the line? Sure. Most illegals would have preferred to have been on the line to begin with, but there wasn't any. There still isn't.

Yes I am an illegal alien. I would love to get in line. I can't though. I was brought into this country as a one year old, but I'm subject to anywhere from a three year to life ban on applying for any visa to come here legally. I'm not low skilled labour, I'm high skilled labour. Realistically I'd be middle aged, if I'm lucky, before I set foot in the USA again. That's assuming I survive that long.

A good portion of illegal aliens come from countries that still have the draft. These are also countries that aren't as tolerant about badmouthing the government. The Soviet Union is gone, but socialism is still very much alive. How can any libertarian ask someone to go live in a socialist state?

Ayn Rand was an illegal. She committed visa fraud to enter the USA. She overstayed her visa for years. She got citizenship through marriage. I like to think no libertarian would judge her negatively for it though. Wouldn't we all do the same to escape a country ruled by socialists?

Yet, here we are. What exactly do you expect will happen to a libertarian that goes live in a socialist country? Do you think the socialists will be, "Hey this free market stuff sounds awesome. We were wrong. Ron Paul 2016!"? Or do you think they will get a gun and shoot them?

KrokHead
02-24-2013, 01:14 PM
How does the state of NC know if someone doesn't have lawful status? Do they assume none of us do unless we give them some kind of proof?
Currently North Carolina flat out hands illegal immigrants license routinely. You can see the North Carolina license routinely at DMV when one registers a car in New York.

Honestly at least it's a step in the right direction.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 01:18 PM
That's not it at all - and - you are making stupid and illogical arguments in an attempt to express an opinion.

I can't tell what you're answer to my question is. If the problem isn't people sucking from the system without paying into it, then why did you even mention that?

On the other hand, if that really is what the problem is, then we're back to what I said.

erowe1
02-24-2013, 01:19 PM
Currently North Carolina flat out hands illegal immigrants license routinely.

Of course. And how could any state avoid doing that, unless they made the rest of us provide some kind of proof that we're not illegal immigrants?