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libertygrl
02-15-2013, 10:36 AM
I'd like to get some opinions here on this subject.

I'm having an online conversation with someone who is a senior and a Vietnam Vet. He's traveled aroud the world and has experience dealing with different cultures.

We agree on many issues (he's also a RP supporter) except when it comes to Muslims and the war on terror.

I feel that the Muslim threat is an exaggeration in order to implement a specific agenda. He feels that they are a genuine threat and is of the belief that while most of them live ordinary lives and fit in (as he put it), there are others who expose themselves as they are portrayed. While Americans have short memories and esentially live day to day, he believes that isn't true for many cultures around the world. That there are traditions carried on for centuries and that hatred is passed on from generation to generation for actions taken years and centuries ago. (I think he takes this as far back as the Crusades with the fight between Christians and Muslims)

While I certainly believe the cultural aspect to be true (as we witnessed with the war in Bosnia), I don't necessarily believe it to be true when it comes to Americans. From what I have read in the past, the US had excellent relations in the Muslim world until Zionism took hold and we turned around and gave complete support to the creation of Israel.

So I guess my feeling is that their attitudes changed toward us from that moment on to the present day. I wanted to get some feedback and opinions. I know I don't have his real world experience but even that experience can be limited. What do you think?

jmdrake
02-15-2013, 10:47 AM
The Muslim threat is an exaggeration in large part because it's more directed at other Muslims than it is the west. The Sunnis and Shias hate each other with a passion. If we minded our own business they'd keep each other in check. It seems your friend may understand that, especially if he is a RP supporter.

libertyjam
02-15-2013, 10:50 AM
Not a trait specific to any one culture or belief I say. Many examples across cultures of multi-generational grudges and revenge scenarios. Too simplistic.

Pericles
02-15-2013, 11:13 AM
From what I have read in the past, the US had excellent relations in the Muslim world until Zionism took hold and we turned around and gave complete support to the creation of Israel.

So I guess my feeling is that their attitudes changed toward us from that moment on to the present day. I wanted to get some feedback and opinions. I know I don't have his real world experience but even that experience can be limited. What do you think?

Except for that Barbary Pirates thing.

One can never assume that other cultures operate under the same rules that ours does. One of the diplomatic norms is that a nation can have whoever it wants as friends or allies. If one culture is not willing to accept that diplomatic norm, there will be some level of conflict, until either the culture changes or the diplomatic norm changes.

We can reduce cultural conflict by minding our own business, but when our own business offends another culture, there is going to be conflict.

erowe1
02-15-2013, 11:31 AM
Let's say Muslims do want to get revenge for the Crusades. Revenge against whom? Not the USA.

Pericles
02-15-2013, 11:37 AM
Let's say Muslims do want to get revenge for the Crusades. Revenge against whom? Not the USA.

Agreed - but that is looking at the issue from our western perspective. If you think that the revenge should be against "Christians", then any "Christian" country or person might be fair game from your perspective.

HOLLYWOOD
02-15-2013, 11:38 AM
Parody: Hatfields & McCoys...

Are Liberal-Progressives short-circuited to always demand... (PICK from a list of 100s): "I want, I force, you must do... etc, etc, etc" and others forced to pay for it?


Any mass of people can be cultured, brainwashed, propagandized, by those in power... it doesn't matter the nation, or the political type of government, religious ideology, family, and so on... Those in power or control can always influence the masses, and if programmed repetitively to the indoctrination(s)... can be instilled from birth to death, over generations, over millenniums, carried futures...

The most disgusting response from the brainwashed people was Ron Paul's "golden rule" in South Carolina debate, when warmongering, Israeli firsters Mark Meckler and Gary Bauer brainwashed their Tea Party Patriots group to boo Ron.

Any group of low informed people or religious zealots, ideologues... can be fooled/manipulated by those in control with a well crafted agenda, whether it's for a hour, a lifetime, or political game shows.

A good example of hardwiring, was the WARSAW PACT's Cultural Marxism of the state is correct and the individual is wrong over decades... That the 'individual is irresponsible', needed controlled of the masses or disasters will erupt, etc...

pcosmar
02-15-2013, 11:46 AM
Agreed - but that is looking at the issue from our western perspective. If you think that the revenge should be against "Christians", then any "Christian" country or person might be fair game from your perspective.

And this is also a great misunderstanding,, because there was absolutely NOTHING christian about the crusades.
There is little to nothing "christian" about political Christianity. It is about Empires.

Christ did not come to create an Empire. (that is Lucifer's gig)

erowe1
02-15-2013, 11:46 AM
Agreed - but that is looking at the issue from our western perspective. If you think that the revenge should be against "Christians", then any "Christian" country or person might be fair game from your perspective.

So South Koreans who in recent years converted to Christianity took on the guilt of the Crusades when they did? Is that what Muslims think?

It strikes me as a caricature designed to make us scared of Muslims.

Pericles
02-15-2013, 11:51 AM
So South Koreans who in recent years converted to Christianity took on the guilt of the Crusades when they did? Is that what Muslims think?

It strikes me as a caricature designed to make us scared of Muslims.

I don't know, but one of the operational aspects of 4GW is that the participants define who their opponents are without the opponents having a say in the matter.

thoughtomator
02-15-2013, 11:51 AM
The French and English still hold grudges over centuries-old wars. And of course the Germans get plenty of this, three generations after Hitler. The Koreans are still pissed at the Japanese, as are the Chinese. Serbians and Bulgarians and Greeks are still wary of Turks, and so on and so forth. There's nothing at all about it specific to Muslims.

Demigod
02-15-2013, 11:57 AM
I'd like to get some opinions here on this subject.

I'm having an online conversation with someone who is a senior and a Vietnam Vet. He's traveled aroud the world and has experience dealing with different cultures.

We agree on many issues (he's also a RP supporter) except when it comes to Muslims and the war on terror.

I feel that the Muslim threat is an exaggeration in order to implement a specific agenda. He feels that they are a genuine threat and is of the belief that while most of them live ordinary lives and fit in (as he put it), there are others who expose themselves as they are portrayed. While Americans have short memories and esentially live day to day, he believes that isn't true for many cultures around the world. That there are traditions carried on for centuries and that hatred is passed on from generation to generation for actions taken years and centuries ago. (I think he takes this as far back as the Crusades with the fight between Christians and Muslims)

While I certainly believe the cultural aspect to be true (as we witnessed with the war in Bosnia), I don't necessarily believe it to be true when it comes to Americans. From what I have read in the past, the US had excellent relations in the Muslim world until Zionism took hold and we turned around and gave complete support to the creation of Israel.

So I guess my feeling is that their attitudes changed toward us from that moment on to the present day. I wanted to get some feedback and opinions. I know I don't have his real world experience but even that experience can be limited. What do you think?

The USA has been bombing countries around the world killing hundreds of thousands directly over something that happened 13 YEARS ago and killed only 3000 people and your friend asks if Muslims are hard-wired for Generational revenge.

Everyone is hard-wired for revenge.The USA has drawn blood on almost the entire globe and then everyone is shocked at why everyone wants revenge.

Acala
02-15-2013, 12:04 PM
So what's his solution? Genocide? There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Going to murder them all because some of them "might" dislike us?

Make him explain to you where that road leads.

CT4Liberty
02-15-2013, 12:08 PM
Muslims are no more a threat to anyone as blondes are... Muslim is a label describing someone, it cannot hurt you or have revenge on you, only people can. Just as there are blonde people who may wish and do you harm, there are Muslim people who may wish and do you harm.

The first step is to try and stop grouping people... there are people on the other side of the world scared that "Americans" will drop a drone missel on their head, does that mean that you or I am a threat to them? Of course not, yet we are Americans...

As such, we can no more hold all Muslim's accountable for the actions a few people labeled the same as them as we can hold all Americans accountable for drone strikes or all blondes responsible for Anders Breivik's massacre in Norway.....

Cowlesy
02-15-2013, 12:09 PM
It's only a matter of time until he strikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR_VhfxAnXU

jmdrake
02-15-2013, 12:15 PM
So what's his solution? Genocide? There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Going to murder them all because some of them "might" dislike us?

Make him explain to you where that road leads.

Well don't forget this part of the OP. We agree on many issues (he's also a RP supporter) except when it comes to Muslims and the war on terror.

I think any RP supporter would, or at least could, agree that part of the solution is to not add to the Muslim memory of "wrongs by the west" by engaging in elective wars. I disagree a lot with Michael Schuerer's philosophy and some of his positions (support for torture for instance), but at the end of the day he's a non-interventionist that endorsed Ron Paul.

libertygrl
02-15-2013, 12:25 PM
The USA has been bombing countries around the world killing hundreds of thousands directly over something that happened 13 YEARS ago and killed only 3000 people and your friend asks if Muslims are hard-wired for Generational revenge.

Everyone is hard-wired for revenge.The USA has drawn blood on almost the entire globe and then everyone is shocked at why everyone wants revenge.

That's a great point. Actually alot of great points in this thread.

Some people say revenge others say justice. When you write everyone is hard-wired for revenge, do you mean as in individuals in the recent past or along generations? Because that's what my friend is alluding to. Generation upon generation. Does it ever end? This seems more of a tribal thing. In the US we don't have that. Except maybe in gangs.

It certainly isn't a Muslim "thing" as there are many other cultures who follow this tradition. But the war on terror is not really about terror. It's a cover to justify the government's foriegn policy on empire building. It's certainly NOT about seeking justice or honor as these other cultures follow, correct? But it certainly explains the animosity and violence against us.

I know a while back, I fould an article explaining the history of US relations in the Muslim world that I wish I could find again. It gave proof of the good relationship we had and how it went sour after the influence of the Zionists.

In answer to Acala, I will definitely ask my friend to explain where the war on terror will lead.

angelatc
02-15-2013, 12:54 PM
I'd like to get some opinions here on this subject.

I'm having an online conversation with someone who is a senior and a Vietnam Vet. He's traveled aroud the world and has experience dealing with different cultures.

We agree on many issues (he's also a RP supporter) except when it comes to Muslims and the war on terror.

I feel that the Muslim threat is an exaggeration in order to implement a specific agenda. He feels that they are a genuine threat and is of the belief that while most of them live ordinary lives and fit in (as he put it), there are others who expose themselves as they are portrayed. While Americans have short memories and esentially live day to day, he believes that isn't true for many cultures around the world. That there are traditions carried on for centuries and that hatred is passed on from generation to generation for actions taken years and centuries ago. (I think he takes this as far back as the Crusades with the fight between Christians and Muslims)

While I certainly believe the cultural aspect to be true (as we witnessed with the war in Bosnia), I don't necessarily believe it to be true when it comes to Americans. From what I have read in the past, the US had excellent relations in the Muslim world until Zionism took hold and we turned around and gave complete support to the creation of Israel.

So I guess my feeling is that their attitudes changed toward us from that moment on to the present day. I wanted to get some feedback and opinions. I know I don't have his real world experience but even that experience can be limited. What do you think?


I actually kind of agree with him. This article is a few years old, but he goes into it straight away. http://www.truthdig.com/dig/page3/20070323_calling_out_idiot_america/

Michael Scherer has expressed the sentiment that we Americans do not think like Muslims do in his blog posts too.

But I don't think they're any more a threat than Pinky and the Brain.

nayjevin
02-15-2013, 12:59 PM
That's a great point. Actually alot of great points in this thread.

Some people say revenge others say justice. When you write everyone is hard-wired for revenge, do you mean as in individuals in the recent past or along generations? Because that's what my friend is alluding to. Generation upon generation. Does it ever end? This seems more of a tribal thing. In the US we don't have that. Except maybe in gangs.

It certainly isn't a Muslim "thing" as there are many other cultures who follow this tradition. But the war on terror is not really about terror. It's a cover to justify the government's foriegn policy on empire building. It's certainly NOT about seeking justice or honor as these other cultures follow, correct? But it certainly explains the animosity and violence against us.

We do not feel oppressed by the 'strongest' military in the world, nor do we have millions living in poverty as the direct result of the actions of a foreign power. These are differences that lead to the phenomena you describe.

Be dirt poor and get bombed with no means to retaliate, then tell your kids how their uncle died.

John F Kennedy III
02-15-2013, 01:11 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if many Muslims do want revenge. We have slaughtered millions of innocent Muslims in many countries.

beaven
02-15-2013, 01:18 PM
I read somewhere once the argument that people from Appalachia and neighboring regions who came from the Scottish Highlands were more prone to feuds due to a culture based on livestock instead of farming. Livestock is easier to steal and thus livestock cultures develop with that as a factor. I wouldn't say it is genetic but I would be open to the consideration that it is a cultural factor. So Islamic areas where herding was common, maybe that is a valid argument. Of course Islam would have little to do with it; it would be more of a herding cultural trait.

thoughtomator
02-15-2013, 01:18 PM
We do not feel oppressed by the 'strongest' military in the world, nor do we have millions living in poverty as the direct result of the actions of a foreign power.

That might depend on whether you consider the Federal Reserve to be a foreign power. Given that it claims independence, and controls our currency, the United States is arguably a vassal state of the Federal Reserve.

familydog
02-15-2013, 01:24 PM
I'd like to get some opinions here on this subject.

I'm having an online conversation with someone who is a senior and a Vietnam Vet. He's traveled aroud the world and has experience dealing with different cultures.

We agree on many issues (he's also a RP supporter) except when it comes to Muslims and the war on terror.

I feel that the Muslim threat is an exaggeration in order to implement a specific agenda. He feels that they are a genuine threat and is of the belief that while most of them live ordinary lives and fit in (as he put it), there are others who expose themselves as they are portrayed. While Americans have short memories and esentially live day to day, he believes that isn't true for many cultures around the world. That there are traditions carried on for centuries and that hatred is passed on from generation to generation for actions taken years and centuries ago. (I think he takes this as far back as the Crusades with the fight between Christians and Muslims)

While I certainly believe the cultural aspect to be true (as we witnessed with the war in Bosnia), I don't necessarily believe it to be true when it comes to Americans. From what I have read in the past, the US had excellent relations in the Muslim world until Zionism took hold and we turned around and gave complete support to the creation of Israel.

So I guess my feeling is that their attitudes changed toward us from that moment on to the present day. I wanted to get some feedback and opinions. I know I don't have his real world experience but even that experience can be limited. What do you think?

Does "hard-wired" mean genetic? A case could be made that Muslims within the Middle East may have a predisposition to hatred. However, the science of epigenetics will say that environmental factors determine whether hatred is the dominate gene. The problem is that the Middle East has yet to see their own enlightenment era. So, whether this hatred is genetic or caused by meddling western nations, the area will continue to experience strife and violence until this enlightenment occurs. I agree that the US and Israel exacerbate the situation. However, the region's rejection of philosophy is a major blockade to peace.

Ender
02-15-2013, 01:40 PM
That's a great point. Actually alot of great points in this thread.

Some people say revenge others say justice. When you write everyone is hard-wired for revenge, do you mean as in individuals in the recent past or along generations? Because that's what my friend is alluding to. Generation upon generation. Does it ever end? This seems more of a tribal thing. In the US we don't have that. Except maybe in gangs.

It certainly isn't a Muslim "thing" as there are many other cultures who follow this tradition. But the war on terror is not really about terror. It's a cover to justify the government's foriegn policy on empire building. It's certainly NOT about seeking justice or honor as these other cultures follow, correct? But it certainly explains the animosity and violence against us.

I know a while back, I fould an article explaining the history of US relations in the Muslim world that I wish I could find again. It gave proof of the good relationship we had and how it went sour after the influence of the Zionists.

In answer to Acala, I will definitely ask my friend to explain where the war on terror will lead.

Of course Americans have it. Most of the US is "hardwired" to hate Muslims.

In addition, Americans still dislike Germany and think that Japan deserved the atomic bomb. They still think that the American Indians were a bunch of savages that needed to be eradicated. They believe the they have a right to the Panama Canal. Americans, on the whole, think that Mexicans are stupid druggies who are after their jobs. Because the US is the currently Empire, we don't blatantly call this "revenge" we simply think we are superior- but it is essentially the same thing. When the Empire falls, then we will call it revenge.

As I have stated before, Muslims are the Jews of the 21st century; they are blamed for every evil in the world today. It doesn't matter that the West has been messing with the ME for centuries- it only matters that they fight back- so they are the bad guys in most Americans eyes.

The Crusades were started by the Brits, They decided to take Israel back- which was never theirs in the first place- mostly so the King could get a good name and up his ratings. ;) Never mind that the Crusaders also slaughtered Jews along the way. According to pop culture history that was still the evil Muslims fault.

Ender
02-15-2013, 01:43 PM
Does "hard-wired" mean genetic? A case could be made that Muslims within the Middle East may have a predisposition to hatred. However, the science of epigenetics will say that environmental factors determine whether hatred is the dominate gene. The problem is that the Middle East has yet to see their own enlightenment era. So, whether this hatred is genetic or caused by meddling western nations, the area will continue to experience strife and violence until this enlightenment occurs. I agree that the US and Israel exacerbate the situation. However, the region's rejection of philosophy is a major blockade to peace.

When Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islam had the most enlightened government in the world. Suleman was one of the greatest kings that every graced the planet; he was fair, good with economics and also an artist.

pcosmar
02-15-2013, 01:49 PM
Erik Prince and the last crusade
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/08/erik_prince_and_the_last_crusa


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oit0OcWUFGM


WTF?
You are worried about the Muslims?

How about Vlad the Impaler?
Dracula from, "The Order of the Dragon"
http://www.oldcuriosityshop.net/quilpsden/articles/vlad.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dragon

familydog
02-15-2013, 02:06 PM
When Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islam had the most enlightened government in the world. Suleman was one of the greatest kings that every graced the planet; he was fair, good with economics and also an artist.

Technically, you are correct. What is missing from your description is the era's distinct lack of philosophy.

Ender
02-15-2013, 02:49 PM
Technically, you are correct. What is missing from your description is the era's distinct lack of philosophy.

"Scuse me?

This was the time of deeply Christian philosophy in the West and a time when the Irish monks saved Greek philosophy from extermination. This was also the time of St Francis- who was befriended by the Muslims.

nayjevin
02-15-2013, 02:54 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ExWfh6sGyso#!

VBRonPaulFan
02-15-2013, 03:02 PM
Does "hard-wired" mean genetic? A case could be made that Muslims within the Middle East may have a predisposition to hatred. However, the science of epigenetics will say that environmental factors determine whether hatred is the dominate gene. The problem is that the Middle East has yet to see their own enlightenment era. So, whether this hatred is genetic or caused by meddling western nations, the area will continue to experience strife and violence until this enlightenment occurs. I agree that the US and Israel exacerbate the situation. However, the region's rejection of philosophy is a major blockade to peace.

This is complete bullshit. Hatred is taught, not 'passed on through genetics'.

Trying to make a case that genetics is what causes people to hate certain other races, or anything at all, is just a way to avoid dealing with the fact that people are raising kids and teaching them to hate, be racist, be bigoted or whatever.

Most of the 'extremist' Muslims have made exceedingly clear why they are angry at America/Americans. They want us to get the fuck off of their holy lands and stop desecrating them with our soldiers presence, and many are angry with our full support of Israel because of their philosophical disagreements between Jews.

Notice that pretty much no middle eastern attention was paid to the US before WWII when we really started getting involved in middle eastern affairs.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-15-2013, 03:11 PM
Technically, you are correct. What is missing from your description is the era's distinct lack of philosophy.

All of Aristotle and much of what wasn't known about Plato came from the Arab Moors during the Holy Wars. Universities were then built in Europe to unravel their mysteries. Prior to this time, all schools in Western Europe were basically Christian with mathematics as the base science.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-15-2013, 03:25 PM
Does "hard-wired" mean genetic? A case could be made that Muslims within the Middle East may have a predisposition to hatred. However, the science of epigenetics will say that environmental factors determine whether hatred is the dominate gene. The problem is that the Middle East has yet to see their own enlightenment era. So, whether this hatred is genetic or caused by meddling western nations, the area will continue to experience strife and violence until this enlightenment occurs. I agree that the US and Israel exacerbate the situation. However, the region's rejection of philosophy is a major blockade to peace.

Hard wired would imply a chip that has been programmed as Read Only Memory (ROM), instead of Random Access Memory (RAM), or Programmers Read Only Memory (PROM). The issue is whether Muslims can be reprogrammed to help advance the new order our Founders established within the United States.

Well, most living within the United States have been deceived into thinking the great thing about the United States are the lawyers, the government, and the two party system. So, I don't see the Muslims as any less dense.

BlackTerrel
02-15-2013, 03:45 PM
People aren't hard wired to do anything and Muslims aren't wired different than anyone else. Behavior is, for the most part, learned.

erowe1
02-15-2013, 03:46 PM
People aren't hard wired to do anything and Muslims aren't wired different than anyone else. Behavior is, for the most part, learned.

Doesn't that mean we're hard wired to learn behavior?

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-15-2013, 04:28 PM
People aren't hard wired to do anything and Muslims aren't wired different than anyone else. Behavior is, for the most part, learned.

This is the reason why people who grow food in small towns tend to be racist while those in the big cities who go to college tend to be more tolerant of the social orgy.
Stupid people teach their children stupid things while smart people teach their children smart things. There just seems to be something very pretentious about this accepted notion. Very Puritan in fact.
Why don't you reference Socrates when making this claim? The new order of Western Civilization came out of him.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-15-2013, 04:33 PM
Doesn't that mean we're hard wired to learn behavior?

A virus is more mind than body as it is mainly random bits of information that, when becoming part of another Dna strand, sometimes makes sense in a symbiotic way. In other words, when that particular virus becomes part of a bacteria, which is far more body than mind, it is beneficial both to the virus and the bacteria.

familydog
02-15-2013, 04:39 PM
All of Aristotle and much of what wasn't known about Plato came from the Arab Moors during the Holy Wars. Universities were then built in Europe to unravel their mysteries. Prior to this time, all schools in Western Europe were basically Christian with mathematics as the base science.

I understand this. Philosophy is more than just establishing schools and reading texts though. Philosophy is something you live. Kings existed precisely because philosophy was scant.

libertygrl
02-15-2013, 05:01 PM
What about religious/cultural traditions? What about generations being taught the importance of defending family honor by any means necessary? One example - honor killings of women in Muslim society. Isn't this something that is handed down within a radical belief system from generation to generation? A distortion of true Islam perhaps? It may not be wired into one's DNA as some my want us to believe, but rather a form of programming at an early age, no? That can be said of any radical religious teachings - like the Christian group that goes to military funerals condeming homosexuals.

It would be interesting to research the concept of paying for the sins of the father. I thought I heard a Christian minister mention this the other day when discussing some biblical story. That in biblical times people were judged based on the actions of past ancestors. Talk about never having a day of peace!

nayjevin
02-15-2013, 05:09 PM
It would be interesting to research the concept of paying for the sins of the father. I thought I heard a Christian minister mention this the other day when discussing some biblical story. That in biblical times people were judged based on the actions of past ancestors. Talk about never having a day of peace!

I believe that's a distortion... in medieval pre-crown europe restitution for crimes was often assumed to be the responsibility of the family. If the aggressor was deceased, the responsibility to right the wrong was not assumed to disappear.

This was also often the case in middle eastern common law.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?362542-Law-prior-to-the-Crown-Brehon-Law-Fenechas-Salic-Law

familydog
02-15-2013, 05:21 PM
What about religious/cultural traditions? What about generations being taught the importance of defending family honor by any means necessary? One example - honor killings of women in Muslim society. Isn't this something that is handed down within a radical belief system from generation to generation? A distortion of true Islam perhaps? It may not be wired into one's DNA as some my want us to believe, but rather a form of programming at an early age, no?

What you suggest is very important. The most practical solution to reducing violence lies in how we raise our children. A child's personality is largely formed within the first 4-5 years of their life. Parents must respect and negotiate with children. Children must not be aggressed against (yelling, spanking, threatened, etc). If we want our children to be peaceful and loving individuals, we must show them by living that example. We haven't quite made it this far in the western world, unfortunately. Yet we are at least one step ahead of the Middle East. We had our philosophical revolution. They have not.

jay_dub
02-15-2013, 05:31 PM
In a modern context, we (the West) have been pissing in their pond since WWI. National boundaries were redrawn, carving up the Middle East, continuing a colonialism that had begun earlier.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

World War I transformed the Middle East in ways it had not seen for centuries. The Europeans, who had colonized much of the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century, completed the takeover with the territories of Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine.

The modern boundaries of the Middle East emerged from the war. So did modern Arab nationalist movements and embryonic Islamic movements. NPR's Mike Shuster reports on World War I and its aftermath as he continues his series on the history of Western involvement in the Middle East.

With the onset of WWI, the French and the British sent armies and agents into the Middle East, to foment revolts in the Arabian Peninsula and to seize Iraq, Syria and Palestine. In 1916, French and British diplomats secretly reached the Sykes-Picot agreement, carving up the Middle East into spheres of influence for their respective countries. That agreement was superceded by another which established a mandate system of French and British control, sanctioned by the new League of Nations.

Under the mandate system, Syria and Lebanon went to the French. The British took over Palestine and three Ottoman provinces of Mesopotamia and created modern-day Iraq.

"Everyone understood at the time that this was a thinly disguised new form of colonialism...," says Zachary Lockman, professor of Middle East history at New York University. "The British and French had no thought of going anywhere anytime soon, and fully intended to remain in control of these territories for the indefinite future."

But almost immediately after the war, Arab resistance movements emerged to challenge European dominance.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3860950

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A really good perspective on Iraq and Kuwait from the 1920's up to the Gulf War:

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/iraqkuwait.html

pcosmar
02-15-2013, 05:32 PM
I understand this. Philosophy is more than just establishing schools and reading texts though. Philosophy is something you live. Kings existed precisely because philosophy was scant.
And that would explain European Kings how?

I had mentioned (posted) Vlad the Impaler earlier. How do you explain him??

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-15-2013, 06:21 PM
What about religious/cultural traditions? What about generations being taught the importance of defending family honor by any means necessary? One example - honor killings of women in Muslim society. Isn't this something that is handed down within a radical belief system from generation to generation? A distortion of true Islam perhaps? It may not be wired into one's DNA as some my want us to believe, but rather a form of programming at an early age, no? That can be said of any radical religious teachings - like the Christian group that goes to military funerals condeming homosexuals.

It would be interesting to research the concept of paying for the sins of the father. I thought I heard a Christian minister mention this the other day when discussing some biblical story. That in biblical times people were judged based on the actions of past ancestors. Talk about never having a day of peace!

There is a difference between a religion and a faith. The Christian faith existed without property as the Church was the people. Many were slaves who met under overturned fishing vessels. That is where the "watchmen" came into play as when the people were captured, by Roman law, they had to be crucified in the same manner was the false messiah or prophet they were worshiping.
It wasn't until later on that, in order that he could avoid having to convert over to this cult called "The Way," Emperor Constantine designed a new religion of Christianity based on Plato's philosophy which became an institution established on property.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-15-2013, 06:27 PM
I understand this. Philosophy is more than just establishing schools and reading texts though. Philosophy is something you live. Kings existed precisely because philosophy was scant.

Philosophically speaking, our Founders didn't want to get rid of the king. To the contrary, our rights were granted to us within The U.S. Constitution for the purpose of establishing a whole new order. Within this order, the people own all property and things while the king becomes a necessary tyrant in title alone reverting over to the designation of a trespassing borrower. In other words, we aren't here to be responsible or equal, but happy. That means we aren't here to govern, but, when put into perspective, government exists to advance our contentment. This is so because a society which is only maintained is a dynasty. A dynasty is a tyranny.

Remember, as it is extremely shameful for the people to have to live on the streets and under the bridges; just the opposite, it isn't a shame for the lawyers to have to live on the streets and under the bridges because they are the ones who legislate, administrate, and judge shame upon the people.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-15-2013, 06:44 PM
Hard wired would imply a chip that has been programmed as Read Only Memory (ROM), instead of Random Access Memory (RAM), or Programmers Read Only Memory (PROM). The issue is whether Muslims can be reprogrammed to help advance the new order our Founders established within the United States.

Well, most living within the United States have been deceived into thinking the great thing about the United States are the lawyers, the government, and the two party system. So, I don't see the Muslims as any less dense.

I posted this and no one seemed to get the point. Wouldn't it be better if we all were just in agreement that we have all been deceived? When advancing in the past, the people improved the order that we all live by. To keep us from advancing, tyranny then stepped in to compromise our position. This has happened again and not to just the bloody Muslims. Even people in this forum are, in clear sight, asleep to the shameful fact that they hold our government of laws to be what makes our United Democratic Republic of Sovereign States so special.

familydog
02-15-2013, 07:37 PM
Philosophically speaking, our Founders didn't want to get rid of the king. To the contrary, our rights were granted to us within The U.S. Constitution for the purpose of establishing a whole new order.

Which founders are you speaking of? Hamilton? I'll agree on that. Besides, the great unwashed seemed to agree with Paine about kingship.

familydog
02-15-2013, 07:43 PM
And that would explain European Kings how?

I had mentioned (posted) Vlad the Impaler earlier. How do you explain him??

What is there to explain? Kingship fell quickly across the western world during the Age of Enlightenment.

BlackTerrel
02-15-2013, 07:44 PM
Well, most living within the United States have been deceived into thinking the great thing about the United States are the lawyers, the government, and the two party system. So, I don't see the Muslims as any less dense.

This is one of those things we say but you don't actually think this do you? I would say approval rates of lawyers and government is sub 20%. Name a more hated profession than lawyers. Lawyers are generally shown in a negative sense in TV and movies as well.

BlackTerrel
02-15-2013, 07:46 PM
Of course Americans have it. Most of the US is "hardwired" to hate Muslims.

No they don't.


In addition, Americans still dislike Germany and think that Japan deserved the atomic bomb. They still think that the American Indians were a bunch of savages that needed to be eradicated. They believe the they have a right to the Panama Canal. Americans, on the whole, think that Mexicans are stupid druggies who are after their jobs.

Stop. You're just being collectivist and bigoted. You don't actually believe this do you?

Do you really believe the majority of Americans think Native Americans deserved to be eradicated? Really? You really think this would poll over 50%? I'd be shocked if you could get 1 in a 100 to agree with this.

There is no need to bash America to lift others up.

Carson
02-15-2013, 07:56 PM
I think the video you posted in another thread has the best explanation I've heard for why they are portrayed as evil.

They don't believe in paying interest for one thing. :)

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?404018-Video-All-Wars-Are-Bankers-Wars&highlight=libertygrl

Still I suppose if an man loaned you some of his honest earned cash, he should be entitled to a return on his risk.

In the video it seems the counterfeiters have a real beef with those that have freedom from their domination.

No matter how much honest hard earned money the, "We the People" can come up with to build their world there are others inside and outside of the country that can fire up the fake money presses and dictate their way.

pcosmar
02-15-2013, 10:20 PM
What is there to explain? Kingship fell quickly across the western world during the Age of Enlightenment.
Age of Enlightenment?
What does that have to do with anything?,,except perhaps socialism.

We (the thread was talking about the Crusades) The age of Enlightenment was a thousand years later..
(and I would certainly dispute the "enlightenment" part)

and beyond that,, most just went behind the scene. (to save their necks)
England still has a Queen, and many other European Monarchs still exist and affect empires.

Ender
02-15-2013, 11:17 PM
No they don't.



Stop. You're just being collectivist and bigoted. You don't actually believe this do you?

Do you really believe the majority of Americans think Native Americans deserved to be eradicated? Really? You really think this would poll over 50%? I'd be shocked if you could get 1 in a 100 to agree with this.

There is no need to bash America to lift others up.

What- do you live under a rock? Do you ever read the Internet? I am not bashing anyone- just sayin' it like it is. And I am about the most unbigoted person I know.

I am a Cherokee/Lumbee mix and most people I know think the Indians were savages and that the Whites were justified in taking their land. I have read it here on this forum.

Most Americans are against Islam and many want Muslims removed from the US. They are blamed for almost all wars and problems going on today.

alucard13mmfmj
02-15-2013, 11:20 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if many Muslims do want revenge. We have slaughtered millions of innocent Muslims in many countries.

and poisoned their land with depleted uranium for millions of years.

familydog
02-16-2013, 07:58 AM
Age of Enlightenment?
What does that have to do with anything?,,except perhaps socialism.

We (the thread was talking about the Crusades) The age of Enlightenment was a thousand years later..
(and I would certainly dispute the "enlightenment" part)

and beyond that,, most just went behind the scene. (to save their necks)
England still has a Queen, and many other European Monarchs still exist and affect empires.

Please refrain from quoting me if you haven't been following my posts.

Are you a supporter of Ron Paul's philosophy? Austrian Economics? Non-interventionist foreign policy? Those all came out of the European Enlightenment.

pcosmar
02-16-2013, 08:16 AM
Please refrain from quoting me if you haven't been following my posts.

Are you a supporter of Ron Paul's philosophy? Austrian Economics? Non-interventionist foreign policy? Those all came out of the European Enlightenment.

As did Darwinism, Socialism, and Communism and Zionism. The overall rejection of God and the rise of Humanism.

However the Philosophy you mention has a rather small following. Sadly enough.

Ender
02-16-2013, 09:53 AM
Quote Originally Posted by familydog
What is there to explain? Kingship fell quickly across the western world during the Age of Enlightenment.

The Age of Enlightenment was the Renaissance basically around the 1400s- 1600s.

Ron Paul's philosophy comes from the Declaration written in the late 1700s.

Austrian Economics came about in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This was the Industrial Age and also brought with it, as pcosmar mentioned, socialism, marxism etc. It also brought in the FED which completed the end of the US (begun by the War Between the States) as originally intended by most of the founding fathers. It was NOT the age of enlightenment.

libertariantexas
02-16-2013, 10:48 AM
Except for that Barbary Pirates thing.



But the Barbary pirates thing had less to do with "Islam" than something we Americans value- MONEY. They lived well by pirating goods and selling captured slaves.

libertariantexas
02-16-2013, 10:53 AM
And this is also a great misunderstanding,, because there was absolutely NOTHING christian about the crusades.
There is little to nothing "christian" about political Christianity. It is about Empires.

Christ did not come to create an Empire. (that is Lucifer's gig)

The crusades were called for by the Popes at the time.

If the "infallible" leader of Christianity (this was before "Protestants" existed) called war in the name of Jesus, it's pretty hard to disassociate them with Christianity.

About the only way they could have been more Christian is if Jesus himself led them.

pcosmar
02-16-2013, 10:59 AM
If the "infallible" leader of Christianity (this was before "Protestants" existed) called war in the name of Jesus, it's pretty hard to disassociate them with Christianity.



NO,,it is not.

I do not associate Popes with Christ at all. Nor do I associate Political Religion with Christianity.

libertygrl
02-16-2013, 01:52 PM
There is a difference between a religion and a faith. The Christian faith existed without property as the Church was the people. Many were slaves who met under overturned fishing vessels. That is where the "watchmen" came into play as when the people were captured, by Roman law, they had to be crucified in the same manner was the false messiah or prophet they were worshiping.
It wasn't until later on that, in order that he could avoid having to convert over to this cult called "The Way," Emperor Constantine designed a new religion of Christianity based on Plato's philosophy which became an institution established on property.

You are absolutley right. There is a BIG difference between religion and faith. I didn't know about some of the other things you went into - such as Constantine designing a new religion based on Plato's philosophy. That's extremely interesting. Any book recommendations on this subject?

heavenlyboy34
02-16-2013, 02:02 PM
I'd like to get some opinions here on this subject.

I'm having an online conversation with someone who is a senior and a Vietnam Vet. He's traveled aroud the world and has experience dealing with different cultures.

We agree on many issues (he's also a RP supporter) except when it comes to Muslims and the war on terror.

I feel that the Muslim threat is an exaggeration in order to implement a specific agenda. He feels that they are a genuine threat and is of the belief that while most of them live ordinary lives and fit in (as he put it), there are others who expose themselves as they are portrayed. While Americans have short memories and esentially live day to day, he believes that isn't true for many cultures around the world. That there are traditions carried on for centuries and that hatred is passed on from generation to generation for actions taken years and centuries ago. (I think he takes this as far back as the Crusades with the fight between Christians and Muslims)

While I certainly believe the cultural aspect to be true (as we witnessed with the war in Bosnia), I don't necessarily believe it to be true when it comes to Americans. From what I have read in the past, the US had excellent relations in the Muslim world until Zionism took hold and we turned around and gave complete support to the creation of Israel.

So I guess my feeling is that their attitudes changed toward us from that moment on to the present day. I wanted to get some feedback and opinions. I know I don't have his real world experience but even that experience can be limited. What do you think?
Some of my bestest friends were arabs (though non-muslim). These conflicts between mideast and West have ancient origins. Kinda like Pakistan/India. As a general rule, your friend's perception of muslims is ill-informed at best.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-17-2013, 11:35 AM
This is one of those things we say but you don't actually think this do you? I would say approval rates of lawyers and government is sub 20%. Name a more hated profession than lawyers. Lawyers are generally shown in a negative sense in TV and movies as well.

So? What is so great about the United States then if this isn't the case? Outside of the United States government, what is so great about it? The thirteen red and white stripes on the flag? You say land of opportunity? Land of opportunity so that pimps from other nations can come over here and pimp us? Freedom? Justice? Our schools? Our great teachers? Our business executives?
Our Founders established a new order. We have it backwards. We live by order first and then the law and not the other way around. A fallen civilization is one that always falls to the virtue of law for the sake of law alone. This is no better than the worst kind of pornography.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
02-17-2013, 11:36 AM
Some of my bestest friends were arabs (though non-muslim). These conflicts between mideast and West have ancient origins. Kinda like Pakistan/India. As a general rule, your friend's perception of muslims is ill-informed at best.

Who were your worstestiest friends?

surf
02-17-2013, 12:00 PM
this is silly. no one is "hard wired" for violence.

BlackTerrel
02-18-2013, 06:23 PM
What- do you live under a rock? Do you ever read the Internet? I am not bashing anyone- just sayin' it like it is. And I am about the most unbigoted person I know.

Pretty sure every view under the sun exists on the internet. Doesn't mean its majority view.


I am a Cherokee/Lumbee mix and most people I know think the Indians were savages and that the Whites were justified in taking their land. I have read it here on this forum.

A second ago you said most Americans believe that most American Indians were savages and deserved to be eradicated? Really? You really think you could get 51 out of a 100 passer-bys to agree with that statement? I'd be shocked if you could get 1 out of 100.

I learned in school that the Native Americans were peaceful and the Europeans were the ones who broke all the treaties and killed the Indians. Pretty sure that's what most people learned in school.


Most Americans are against Islam and many want Muslims removed from the US. They are blamed for almost all wars and problems going on today.

I don't know what "many" is. I'm sure the vast majority of Americans would oppose the forceful removal of Muslims. Show me a poll that says differently.

Americans aren't hard wired to hate or be evil either.

BlackTerrel
02-18-2013, 06:26 PM
So? What is so great about the United States then if this isn't the case? Outside of the United States government, what is so great about it? The thirteen red and white stripes on the flag? You say land of opportunity? Land of opportunity so that pimps from other nations can come over here and pimp us? Freedom? Justice? Our schools? Our great teachers? Our business executives?
Our Founders established a new order. We have it backwards. We live by order first and then the law and not the other way around. A fallen civilization is one that always falls to the virtue of law for the sake of law alone. This is no better than the worst kind of pornography.

There is good porn and bad porn of course. But otherwise not sure how your response answers my question.

You said the majority of Americans think the best thing about America is the lawyers. I asked if you really think that? Do you? Do you really think if you put a poll to 100 Americans of what makes America great that "lawyers" would be the #1 answer? I can't imagine you believe that...

pcosmar
02-18-2013, 06:29 PM
There is good porn and bad porn of course. But otherwise not sure how your response answers my question.


You make the mistake of thinking it would.
;)
.

RickyJ
02-18-2013, 06:35 PM
All humans want revenge for wrongs done to them or their family, it is only natural. But only the brainwashed still think Muslims did 9/11.