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View Full Version : About December 16, November 30, and Miracles: Some Thoughts




Politeia
11-22-2007, 07:45 PM
Please forgive me for starting yet another thread on this subject, but this comment has grown long enough that I don't want my effort to be buried in another thread and forgotten as swiftly as most seem to be. I hope it may provoke some thought in those who take time to read it.

I haven't followed all the various discussion threads since the infamous HQ email arrived in our inboxes, but I have a few observations I'd like to share.

I received the HQ email, and I will say it didn't leave me with a positive impression. Of course, I really don't much like (read: hate) being constantly dunned for money, but I'm willing to set aside my annoyance in this case; I understand the campaign has to keep pushing, so I just figure such messages (this was not the first) are meant for those who haven't donated yet, or could donate more and need a little push.

However, I think this email was a mistake. Coming so soon after November 5, it left a feeling that the Campaign already considers that tremendous success "old news" and already wonders why everyone isn't giving more. I felt a little like the horse in Animal Farm, who after putting in 18 hour days and doing more than any three other horses, is simply taken for granted and given an even higher quota.

It hasn't yet been made clear to me how the goal of $12 million in the fourth quarter, which we're ahead of schedule in raising, somehow became insufficient. I will confess I was among those who initially thought that target over-confident, and likely to lead to embarrassment. But it now seems like it will be exceeded, which is certainly great. But apparently, going by the email, that target was not only too small, but, judging from the flavor of desperation in the message, almost fatally so. If so, perhaps the email should have commenced with some kind of acknowledgement of the campaign's previous error, e.g.:

"On October 1 we set a target of $12 million in the fourth quarter, feeling that amount would allow us to do the publicity Ron Paul needs to be heard in the early primary states. Unfortunately, it has now become clear that amount will not be nearly enough to do what needs to be done. Therefore, we find we must reluctantly turn to you, our faithful supporters, with yet another appeal for financial help."

Or something like that. If, as some on this forum counsel, we are simply to "trust HQ", I guess I'd feel a little better if they were up to admitting their mistakes.

On the other hand, $12 million is quite a bit of money -- certainly more than will have passed through my hands in my entire life. If it's really not enough, I guess I'd like to hear at least a little explanation of why. If it is enough, then the panicky HQ email was clearly a mistake. Again, if we're supposed to "trust HQ", and they made such a huge mistake budgeting only $12 million, how can I have confidence they know what they're doing now?

And when will enough be enough? I'm beginning to get the feeling that there will never be enough money in the Campaign's coffers, no matter what we do.

(Note: Nothing I say should be construed that I'd like to see HQ "acknowledge" the grassroots' efforts; they should continue to maintain a scrupulous separation and distance. But they need to treat us with respect, which can be done without any direct connection or even mention.)

None of us is perfect, of course. And in the excitement and frenzy of a political campaign that has more or less suddenly, unexpectedly turned into something far different (far bigger) than it was ever expected to be, it's not surprising that mistakes have been and will be made.

I don't really know anything about Jonathan Bydlak. I believe I read here somewhere that he is 24 years old; if so, I have been donating money to Ron Paul since before he was born. Along with enthusiasm and energy, youth also has a tendency to easy excitement, and lack of the big-picture view.

I am 64 years old, more-or-less involuntarily "retired", chronically ill and living at what I'm sure most people would consider a poverty level. I don't have a lot of money to spare, but have been sending a little to Ron Paul now and then since 1981. The last time I bothered to vote was in 1988; I knew he was running again this year, but didn't pay much attention until the explosion of interest after the first debate. Then I got involved, in my own small way, and have donated what I felt I could.

I didn't sign up to donate on November 5, as I wasn't sure I would have the resources to participate. However, when the day came I was swept up in the wave, and sent in my $100. And I'm happy I did (I even got a screen shot when my name appeared, which goes in my scrapbook with the Ames, Iowa ad where I was in the mosaic). And that felt so good that I pretty well decided I could stretch again on December 16 and be part of history again.

But my enthusiasm is now dampening, as I read all the confusion that has ensued because of this ill-considered HQ email, and the ill-considered responses here. Much though I admire and applaud the initiative of Trevor Lyman and other frontline activists, I think another publically-announced, publically-promoted "money bomb" on November 30 is a very bad idea.

If people on this forum, the core activists of the rEVOLution, want to promote a private push among themselves to donate a little more by the end of November to respond to the email (similar to the private push I gather was aimed at the Huckabee "bomb"), that's fine. But trying to squeeze more blood out of the public at large on November 30, with the message (explicit or implicit) that, well, it's okay, you can give everything you've got now, and then you can still give what you were planning on December 16, is ... well, the word that comes to mind is "disrespectful". Like you think you've somehow got us all by the whatevers, and you can just keep squeezing.

One "money bomb" was great, and got Ron Paul publicity worth at least ten times the dollar amount collected. The second money bomb on December 16, if successful, will be even greater. However, success in this case must mean: (1) at least double the total on November 5, and (2) an unquestionable record for any political candidate in American history, no contest. If it doesn't meet those two goals, it will be lukewarm at best, in publicity terms possibly even a dud. Remember, the real value of a money bomb is the publicity, far beyond the dollar amount collected.

To stretch the metaphor a little -- I don't think too far -- a money bomb is a kind of explosion. An explosion is a sudden release of pressure. In most cases, a certain amount of pressure has to build up before an impressive release can occur. That's why Old Faithful spouts on a schedule, and not all day long. (Any man past the age of 40 understands this.) Trying to spark an explosion before the necessary pressure has built up will result in, well, nothing very impressive. Look up "anticlimax".

December 16, nearly six weeks after November 5, is just about right: Those who gave on the first date will have had enough time to build up enough resources to give again, and enough new people will have come to the campaign to add up, together, to another big explosion, probably much bigger than the first one (if it isn't, then I'll begin to have real doubts about the whole campaign).

But trying to spark another public explosion, at the last minute, halfway between the two, will result in (a) a November 30 that will generate negative publicity (unless it's at least $10 million, which somehow I doubt), and (b) a December 16 that will fall flat, both because of deflation due to November 30 and because by then it'll be "Oh, yeah, those Ron Paul folks with their 'money bombs'."

Again, one money bomb was great; two -- if done right -- can be fantastic; but three ... I think three money bombs might be the maximum before the idea becomes old news, and the third one should wait for another turning point, like before (or even after) Super Tuesday. It's a great idea: Don't overuse it.

Another thing about November 30: What's the hook? Anniversary of what? I think it may be my saint's name day, but that's hardly enough to rally the nation. The Tea Party anniversary is a great hook -- and, as a real American holiday, will make up for the little problem we had with "Guy Fawkes" on November 5. But November 30 is apparently just a date picked out of the air because we hear the campaign is desperate for money. The flavor is desperate and mercenary = no fun at all, just "money, money, money".

Finally: One of the biggest things for me (and, I think, for many) that has set Ron Paul apart from all the other candidates has been his cheerful demeanor, and his repeated admonitions that whatever we do, we shouldn't forget to have fun while we're doing it. Ironically, the more it begins to look like something good might actually come of all this effort, I get the feeling that this spirit of fun is being lost. As we get closer to the first big electoral test, a sense of desperation is creeping in.

Maybe this is because we all understand, in our hearts, that the truth is, and always has been, that Ron Paul will not win the presidency except by a miracle. Even if he had unlimited money, a miracle would still be required. Actually, that, for me, is a miracle that already in great part seems to have happened. But it's not a financial miracle, it's a miracle of consciousness.

Before this summer, it had simply never occurred in my wildest dreams that any significant number of Americans would be interested in libertarian ideas. After all, it has never happened before, anywhere, in the history of civilization; since Egypt, the vast majority of people in all large-scale organized societies have been slaves or the equivalent, and apparently more-or-less content to remain so. Just look at modern Europe.

But it seems that somehow, this fact of human history may be changing, right now, right here, in the U.S.A.: Suddenly a whole lot of people are getting interested in liberty -- even if few of them really understand very much about it yet. (I'm amused by all the "I don't agree with Ron Paul about everything" threads; I hope these people will stay with it long enough to understand that if you live by principle, as Ron Paul does, you can't pick-and-choose your stances on various issues: You must be consistent, as Ron Paul is, even when it might take a little effort.) And that, to me, is a miracle.

As I said, I've been "out sick" for a long time -- about a quarter of my life now. By all the logic of the cold, hard world, I should be dead now, as I'm really in no condition to deal with any beyond the relatively minor difficulties I've been given. Yet somehow, against all odds, I've not been given more to deal with than I can handle. And somehow I just keep going, for which I'm profoundly grateful. This has taught me that there is more going on than what we usually believe; that, in fact, what we call "miracles" are actually how the world works. The truth is, every one of us is only seconds (if that) from death, at any moment.

This summer a friend died in the midst of her evening meal -- a sudden brain aneurysm. When she died, she (a Buddhist, as I am) had just formed the intention to go on pilgrimage to one of the primary Sacred Sites of Buddhism: Mt. Kailash in Tibet. Her face fell on the photograph of Mt. Kailash that she was looking at, and she died. I cannot believe this scenario was simply an outcome of pure, random chance. Nor, I'm sure, does my friend, wherever she may now be (well launched into her next life, if the Tibetans are correct).

The truth is, nothing that happens in this world is other than a miracle. Thus, the best we can do, rather than constantly scrambling to figure all the angles and "get ahead", is to be true to ourselves and to the truth, and just let Whoever's Running This Show see to the outcome. I think Dr. Paul, as a sincerely religious man, understands this, which is why he can continue to have fun, even when the stakes appear to be high. And, because he is true to himself, he cannot really lose.

The truth is, the stakes are always high, and can get no higher. Once you understand that, you can simply let go and do your best. No need for desperation, which is a symptom of lack of faith.

Tea Party '07 is a great idea, just right, whose time will be on December 16. Don't dilute it by trying to milk the idea again and again. Stay the course, have faith, do your best, and leave the outcome to the Creator of Your Choice. And please, don't stop having fun. Otherwise, what's the point? If you let "the world" get to you that much, pretty soon you'll start compromising ... and pretty soon after that, you'll wake up one morning, look in the mirror and see Rudy. Who is, after all, simply another human being like you and I, just one who has sold his soul because he's lost his faith.

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 08:13 PM
Now this is Wisdom from our elders!

Big Bump

Original_Intent
11-22-2007, 08:46 PM
I love this post. Thank you Politeia! Your life philosophy is a lesson to us all and makes me regret some of the sharp words I have had for those promoting the 30th. Congratulations on being able to take the "higher path".

Even though I am a Mormon, I served as a missionary in Jappan back in 1982-1984, and have a great respect for the Buddhist philosophy. My years in martial arts since that time has reinforced that respect and I strive to incorporate many of the wonderful aspects of zen into my life.

Again, thanks for a great post that I have enjoyed more than any I have read for a long time.

And for your Animal Farm reference - "I will work harder!" :)

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 08:50 PM
The word is already out a both dates are already be promoted heavily, too late, now all we can do is our best to support the efforts. let's show them we stand united.

hddn-agnda
11-22-2007, 08:56 PM
That was long, let me put it this way...

The campaign has grown larger than we thought it would. With that, they've had to start hiring more staff and spending more money. They set a goal of 12 Million because they knew we could beat it. That's what you do... you set an impossible goal and you say "we're leaving your freedom in your hands" and step back and do what you've been doing to get the support.

They know we will beat the goal, and now their job is to milk that last extra money they can, because January 8th, when all of that money is gone, if we win, February 8th is coming up with another SUPER PRIMARY day. We can't just hope that second place in Iowa will help us. We need to be winning in landslides, so that if anything happens in the nomination process, it will be PLAINLY OBVIOUS that there are irregularities. We MUST landslide and win by 50% EVERYWHERE... not an option. start pouring the funds if you have them. if you don't have them, start shaking people down for money.

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:00 PM
That was long, let me put it this way...

The campaign has grown larger than we thought it would. With that, they've had to start hiring more staff and spending more money. They set a goal of 12 Million because they knew we could beat it. That's what you do... you set an impossible goal and you say "we're leaving your freedom in your hands" and step back and do what you've been doing to get the support.

They know we will beat the goal, and now their job is to milk that last extra money they can, because January 8th, when all of that money is gone, if we win, February 8th is coming up with another SUPER PRIMARY day. We can't just hope that second place in Iowa will help us. We need to be winning in landslides, so that if anything happens in the nomination process, it will be PLAINLY OBVIOUS that there are irregularities. We MUST landslide and win by 50% EVERYWHERE... not an option. start pouring the funds if you have them. if you don't have them, start shaking people down for money.

amen brotha

Original_Intent
11-22-2007, 09:00 PM
Alex, if you are a true blue Ron Paul supporter, I apologize, but I personally consider you a mole. Honest disagreement is not a problem, but who are you to sail in saying "ah too late both dates are already out there must press on and support both dates"?

I say until the 30th nothing is too late. People should carefully consider until then how they will be most effective and then make their own decision.

Ah and joined in by another new member, Mr. "Hidden Agenda". Color me not surprised. What is your hidden agenda, if I may ask?

TechnoGuyRob
11-22-2007, 09:04 PM
Thank you SO MUCH, sir, for finally most excellently summing up what most of us have been saying all along. We can not relinquish control of the possibly the biggest grassroots financial effort in history to one group's wishes.

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 09:05 PM
Please don't disrespect THIS thread with MORE NOVEMBER 30th PROPAGANDA, you already have enough threads!!! This is the best post I have ever read on this site and it deserves more than short sighted biased opinions!!!

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:06 PM
Alex, if you are a true blue Ron Paul supporter, I apologize, but I personally consider you a mole. Honest disagreement is not a problem, but who are you to sail in saying "ah too late both dates are already out there must press on and support both dates"?

I say until the 30th nothing is too late. People should carefully consider until then how they will be most effective and then make their own decision.

Ah and joined in by another new member, Mr. "Hidden Agenda". Color me not surprised. What is your hidden agenda, if I may ask?

apology accepted :), I'm fine with dissagreement, but not with the all out riot of earlier today that is all.

jake
11-22-2007, 09:08 PM
the Teaparty can, and WILL be strong as always planned! Great post

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:08 PM
if you still doubt, just read up on my post history, I'm quite honest, I just think we had more pressing things to discuss like DELEGATES

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:09 PM
the Teaparty can, and WILL be strong as always planned! Great post

agreed, I think we'vemore than proven we can make anything work

Original_Intent
11-22-2007, 09:10 PM
Notice that a LOT of the November 30 supporters have joined within the last month or two? Also notice that the long time members - Josh, LibertyEagle, and many others tend to downplay the 30th in favor of the 16th?

I am not saying people aren't entitled to their opinions and certainly there are mostly well meaning people who have both views, but I also feel that we have some moles working among us that do not have the best interests of the campaign at heart, they are here to sow dissent, confusion, and distract us from the purpose of most effectively getting Ron Paul elected.

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 09:14 PM
Notice that a LOT of the November 30 supporters have joined within the last month or two? Also notice that the long time members - Josh, LibertyEagle, and many others tend to downplay the 30th in favor of the 16th?

I am not saying people aren't entitled to their opinions and certainly there are mostly well meaning people who have both views, but I also feel that we have some moles working among us that do not have the best interests of the campaign at heart, they are here to sow dissent, confusion, and distract us from the purpose of most effectively getting Ron Paul elected.

I agree, and I've also noticed that they fling insult with impunity at these long time members which is so disrespectful. How can anyone consider them to be Ron Paul Patriots when they use every cheap shot in the book to undermine our leadership and our agenda?

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:17 PM
Notice that a LOT of the November 30 supporters have joined within the last month or two? Also notice that the long time members - Josh, LibertyEagle, and many others tend to downplay the 30th in favor of the 16th?

I am not saying people aren't entitled to their opinions and certainly there are mostly well meaning people who have both views, but I also feel that we have some moles working among us that do not have the best interests of the campaign at heart, they are here to sow dissent, confusion, and distract us from the purpose of most effectively getting Ron Paul elected.

lol, a conspricy to raise funds... I do think there were some moles, the people who were calling other to revolt agains the campaign. I'm just saying people should respect each other preference of date, don't slam on peoples preferences because it makes us seem not united. In my many posts today I was pretty consistant, I just don't feel like typicng it out everytime in the 1000+ threads everyone started.

TechnoGuyRob
11-22-2007, 09:19 PM
Notice that a LOT of the November 30 supporters have joined within the last month or two? Also notice that the long time members - Josh, LibertyEagle, and many others tend to downplay the 30th in favor of the 16th?

I am not saying people aren't entitled to their opinions and certainly there are mostly well meaning people who have both views, but I also feel that we have some moles working among us that do not have the best interests of the campaign at heart, they are here to sow dissent, confusion, and distract us from the purpose of most effectively getting Ron Paul elected.

Wow, I really haven't noticed that. That's a very good point.

I think there's going to be a lot of lessons we learn after December 16th. Let's hope they're not those learned from failure.

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:22 PM
lol, Let's just not end up on a witch hunt, lol, no way is the dec 16th gonna fail, the momentum for it is bigger than life, especially with the USA today ad

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 09:24 PM
lol, a conspricy to raise funds... I do think there were some moles, the people who were calling other to revolt agains the campaign. I'm just saying people should respect each other preference of date, don't slam on peoples preferences because it makes us seem not united. In my many posts today I was pretty consistant, I just don't feel like typicng it out everytime in the 1000+ threads everyone started.


Revolt against the campaign? I don't recall the campaign calling for another money bomb. And who are you to be calling other people, who don't like YOUR money bomb idea, to be revolting aginst the campaign? You certainly don't speak for them!!!

skinzterpswizfan
11-22-2007, 09:30 PM
Notice that a LOT of the November 30 supporters have joined within the last month or two? Also notice that the long time members - Josh, LibertyEagle, and many others tend to downplay the 30th in favor of the 16th?

I am not saying people aren't entitled to their opinions and certainly there are mostly well meaning people who have both views, but I also feel that we have some moles working among us that do not have the best interests of the campaign at heart, they are here to sow dissent, confusion, and distract us from the purpose of most effectively getting Ron Paul elected.

That's bullshit. Just because a person has only recently joined does not mean they haven't been supporting Ron Paul. I've been a fan of him since May and have only recently run across this forum.

And that makes a ton of sense. Those who support November 30th want to screw up Ron Paul's chances at getting elected by getting him money more quickly than those who support the December 16th money bomb. Yeah, that's logical.

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:32 PM
Revolt against the campaign? I don't recall the campaign calling for another money bomb. And who are you to be calling other people, who don't like YOUR money bomb idea, to be revolting aginst the campaign? You certainly don't speak for them!!!

Who said it was my money bomb, Teaparty and Nov. 30th are being done BY THE SAME GUY!!! I'm just showing support cause Trevor has done a great job so far.

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:33 PM
I support both, cause anything to raise money for the campaign is a good idea, I'm not saying people have to get behind it, I'm just saying if you don't, don't know other people for doing it.

There were people revolting against the campaign earlier, I was referring to those people
go back and read all the posts by literatim, it was very hostile and uncalled for

Goldwater Conservative
11-22-2007, 09:34 PM
Great post. Myself, I only found about this new money bomb today. And the last time I posted here was just three days ago.

I find it extremely odd that Paul himself has referenced Tea Party '07, and surely everyone in his campaign knew it was coming, yet only just recently did somebody realize that they needed more money and should say something, knowing full well the implications it would have for the grassroots and their independent efforts.

Anyway, I think some people also don't realize that these events drum up new support, encourage donations that might not have been made otherwise, and energize the base. And then there's all the free media attention. It's not simply a matter of drawing X amount of money from Tea Party '07, it's a matter of drawing more than X amount of money and possibly weakening it in other ways.

Again, if you can donate now and/or on the 30th without detracting from what you can do on Dec. 16th, great, but otherwise I don't like the idea of anything that might scramble us and throw water on an event that does so much more than many of us are giving it credit for.

dircha
11-22-2007, 09:38 PM
Revolt against the campaign? I don't recall the campaign calling for another money bomb. And who are you to be calling other people, who don't like YOUR money bomb idea, to be revolting aginst the campaign? You certainly don't speak for them!!!

Mark, I don't think anyone means to tell you that you should donate on November 30th if you don't want to.

But what we are urging people to do, and what the official campaign strongly pleaded with us to do, is for anyone who was planning to wait until the 16th to contribute, to contribute within the next 2 weeks instead if they can afford to, and for everyone else to contribute whatever they can as soon as possible as well.

It just happens that November 30th falls within that timeframe, but it is completely true that so long as it is sometime within the next 2 weeks if at all possible, that is what matters most.

The urgency of this was explained in the email very well. If you didn't receive the email from the campaign, go to http://www.ronpaul2008.com/join/ and register.

Thank you and sorry for any confusion.

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 09:40 PM
Mark, I don't think anyone means to tell you that you should donate on November 30th if you don't want to.

But what we are urging people to do, and what the official campaign strongly pleaded with us to do, is for anyone who was planning to wait until the 16th to contribute, to contribute within the next 2 weeks instead if they can afford to, and for everyone else to contribute whatever they can as soon as possible as well.

It just happens that November 30th falls within that timeframe, but it is completely true that so long as it is sometime within the next 2 weeks if at all possible, that is what matters most.

The urgency of this was explained in the email very well. If you didn't receive the email from the campaign, go to http://www.ronpaul2008.com/join/ and register.

Thank you and sorry for any confusion.

what he said

dircha
11-22-2007, 09:44 PM
Again, if you can donate now and/or on the 30th without detracting from what you can do on Dec. 16th, great, but otherwise I don't like the idea of anything that might scramble us and throw water on an event that does so much more than many of us are giving it credit for.

Mr. Goldwater, all I know is what I've heard from the campaign - hopefully the same thing everyone else has heard - that those who can afford to do so now but were intending to wait until the 16th to donate, to donate as soon as possible - within the next 2 weeks - what they were planning to donate on the 16th.

I'll admit my first inclination when I read the email was to say, "set aside an amount for the 16th, but donate more today." But I can't honestly say that's what they mean. The meaning is pretty clear: if you can afford to donate now, donate now even if it means you can't donate on the 16th.

The reason this is important is explained in the email. They need the money within the next 2 weeks to buy and schedule advertising for the rest of the quarter. The campaign does not spend money they do not have. It can't wait; it will be too late by the time the 16th rolls around, and if you look at the polls, you can see that even if they spend every bit of money they have raised so far, we are still is an extremely precarious position in Iowa and New Hampshire, a position that could count us out of the race for all practical purposes.

This is why it is so urgent.

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 09:51 PM
Mark, I don't think anyone means to tell you that you should donate on November 30th if you don't want to.

But what we are urging people to do, and what the official campaign strongly pleaded with us to do, is for anyone who was planning to wait until the 16th to contribute, to contribute within the next 2 weeks instead if they can afford to, and for everyone else to contribute whatever they can as soon as possible as well.

It just happens that November 30th falls within that timeframe, but it is completely true that so long as it is sometime within the next 2 weeks if at all possible, that is what matters most.

The urgency of this was explained in the email very well. If you didn't receive the email from the campaign, go to http://www.ronpaul2008.com/join/ and register.

Thank you and sorry for any confusion.

I received the email and have been debating it all day. If you are unfamiliar with all of the arguments against the 30th there are plenty of threads to read, but the best is at the top of this thread.

Goldwater Conservative
11-22-2007, 09:57 PM
This is why it is so urgent.

I don't doubt that at least some people in the campaign think it's urgent, and that it might very well be, but I honestly do wonder if the individual who sent the e-mail isn't being overly cautious or pessimistic, and I definitely think the time for the campaign to say anything that might affect Dec. 16th passed over a week ago.

Again, no disrespect intended to anyone, I just have my doubts, and I do think we may already be past the point of no return for Dec. 16th. Siphoning off donations from that day (and I do believe that's the case for most people) could provide the campaign an extra million or two right now, but it could cost Tea Party '07 even more since promotional efforts might be dampened and it could mean the difference between the buzz of "double the last money bomb" or "over $10 million" and "not quite double the last one" or "under $7 million".

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 10:02 PM
better late than never

dircha
11-22-2007, 10:03 PM
I received the email and have been debating it all day. If you are unfamiliar with all of the arguments against the 30th there are plenty of threads to read, but the best is at the top of this thread.

I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't have a horse in the 30th date emotionally myself. I only take issue with the suggestion in this thread that it is just fine for supporters to hold off until the 16th to donate. What I mean to say is that the campaign isn't asking us to schedule an earlier money bomb day. The campaign is asking us to contribute within the next 2 weeks if at all possible, money bomb or not, even if that means not being able to contribute more on the 16th, because of the urgency.

I can't afford to donate more until next paycheck, but I will be donating within then next 2 weeks as requested. And it just so happens that I get paid on the 30th.

McDermit
11-22-2007, 10:09 PM
Excellent thread!



Great post.

I find it extremely odd that Paul himself has referenced Tea Party '07, and surely everyone in his campaign knew it was coming, yet only just recently did somebody realize that they needed more money and should say something, knowing full well the implications it would have for the grassroots and their independent efforts.

Logical thinking for the win!

Had Ron seen or heard of the email before it was sent, I guarantee it never would have went out. A general rah-rah fundraising email may have been, but certainly nothing like what we all recieved. RP understands how grassroots politics works, and he knows why the campaign has gotten as far as it has. The same cannot be said for the 23 year old econ major who has zero campaign/fundraising/marketing experience.

monotony
11-22-2007, 10:14 PM
Thank you for the very insightful and wise post.

I personally think that the campaign HQ is nothing compared to the grassroots. I would much rather see the money bomb be put toward the grassroots efforts produced on this board rather than put it in the hands of the HQ campaign. The quality of just about everything produced by the campaign is a mere shadow of the creativity and quality of similar grassroots efforts. Bydlack just seems dense. I mean, I remember watching the press conference about Nov 5 and, on a day that was a huge triumph for Paul's campaign, he conveyed the enthusiasm of a bag of rocks. It was the most uninspired and terrible press conference regarding one of the most amazing accomplishments in political history.

Ron Paul is going to win despite his official campaign, not because of it. (Although the web team has been absolutely fantastic) The official campaign would be wise to regard the counsel of the grassroots efforts as infinitely more important than it's own, and make their decisions accordingly.

GET OUT OF THE WAY AND LET US DRIVE.

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 10:17 PM
I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't have a horse in the 30th date emotionally myself. I only take issue with the suggestion in this thread that it is just fine for supporters to hold off until the 16th to donate. What I mean to say is that the campaign isn't asking us to schedule an earlier money bomb day. The campaign is asking us to contribute within the next 2 weeks if at all possible, money bomb or not, even if that means not being able to contribute more on the 16th, because of the urgency.

I can't afford to donate more until next paycheck, but I will be donating within then next 2 weeks as requested. And it just so happens that I get paid on the 30th.

We debated this urgency, the man who sent is out, his less than stellar track record, his motivations, the big mistakes the campaign has made, etc. I never took issue with donating more, I took issue with another money bomb. Specifically it having its own website, having people subscribe, using the TeaParty07 subscriber email list etc. Plenty of other valid arguments in the other threads I won't delve into now. We have already accepted the fact that the 30th is a done deal because the email has already been sent out, we are just debating the wisdom of that decision and its possible ramifications. But we seem to be unable to find or create a thread where we can discuss this because pro 30th people keep posting on these threads. And quite frankly its pissing me off. They have enough threads already.

AlexMerced
11-22-2007, 10:19 PM
be careful, people will use that to spin him in the general election, you know why vote for a guy who can't even lead his own campaign supporters,again, they are going to SPIN it that way no matter how we feel about it. Let's not give the MSM the satisfaction.

NewEnd
11-22-2007, 10:22 PM
be careful, people will use that to spin him in the general election, you know why vote for a guy who can't even lead his own campaign supporters,again, they are going to SPIN it that way no matter how we feel about it. Let's not give the MSM the satisfaction.

No, that wouldn't get ratings.... nobody cares about this internal conflict except Ron Paul fans.

everybody else would change the channel.

McDermit
11-22-2007, 10:23 PM
be careful, people will use that to spin him in the general election, you know why vote for a guy who can't even lead his own campaign supporters,again, they are going to SPIN it that way no matter how we feel about it. Let's not give the MSM the satisfaction.

Even if they attempt to, RP will give the perfect Teflon response as he always does.

Original_Intent
11-22-2007, 10:24 PM
Wow, I hate to say it, but after reading some other posts in this thread it strikes me that Mr. Bydlack, all of 24 years old, may not be enthused about money bombs in general as it might reflect poorly on his job performance when the grassroots do amazing things that he cannot replicate.

I am not saying he is doing a bad job, and I am not saying he is trying (at least consciously) to sabotage the Tea Party, but he is all of 24 years old - he may be having some insecurity issues that is causing him to act without fully thinking things through.

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 10:28 PM
Wow, I hate to say it, but after reading some other posts in this thread it strikes me that Mr. Bydlack, all of 24 years old, may not be enthused about money bombs in general as it might reflect poorly on his job performance when the grassroots do amazing things that he cannot replicate.

I am not saying he is doing a bad job, and I am not saying he is trying (at least consciously) to sabotage the Tea Party, but he is all of 24 years old - he may be having some insecurity issues that is causing him to act without fully thinking things through.

I Fully Agree.

Politeia
11-22-2007, 10:31 PM
Mark, I don't think anyone means to tell you that you should donate on November 30th if you don't want to.

Not speaking for Mark, but for myself: Of course anyone can donate any time they feel moved, and I'm not into discouraging anyone from donating. The problem for me is this November 30th Money Bomb idea, with associated publicity blitz, aimed at the general public beyond this forum. That goes far beyond just "donate [as an individual] before December 16th if you can." And it cannot help but take a lot of wind out of the sails of December 16th.


But what we are urging people to do, and what the official campaign strongly pleaded with us to do, is for anyone who was planning to wait until the 16th to contribute, to contribute within the next 2 weeks instead if they can afford to, and for everyone else to contribute whatever they can as soon as possible as well.

I just went back and read the email, and you know, I like it even less than I did when I first read it. What it really seems to be saying -- especially if all its partisans here are correct -- is something like: "Look, you guys have really screwed the campaign with this December 16th Tea Party '07 idea. If whatever money that is supposed to collect doesn't come in now (or better yet, yesterday), then Ron Paul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being elected, and it'll all be your fault."

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. While I will certainly agree that a good showing in New Hampshire and/or Iowa will be a great boon to the campaign, I do not believe that the entire election process hinges on just these two events, and that if Ron Paul doesn't win both of them he might as well just give up and go home. I'm no election historian, but I believe plenty of cases could be found where the winners of these two events were not the eventual nominees. The future is not set in stone; if it were, the Ron Paul campaign would never have gotten off the ground in the first place.


From the email:
If you wait a month from now to donate, your money will only be spent after Iowa caucus-goers and New Hampshire primary voters have made up their minds.

But, you see, that will always be the case. Not that I even agree that voters can't change their minds in the last week anyway. But it's the quality of desperation here, so early in the race, that I feel bodes ill. These are not the only primaries we'll be facing. If the campaign cannot possibly deal with even these two primaries unless everyone gives all they have now, what resources will be left for the next hurdles?

What about all the people who've already made up their minds? Maybe we've truly lost the election already, because we didn't give enough in July? Maybe July would have been too late anyway, we should have given in May? When is enough enough? You know, it is true: Ron Paul may not win. If we're going to shoot each other over that, why not just start now and get it over with?

If things really, truly are that desperate, here's my suggestion: Scrap December 16, take down the Tea Party '07 website, and issue a press release explaining that the Ron Paul campaign will be a total loss if everyone who was thinking about donating then (or later) doesn't clean out their entire bank account this minute (or by November 30 at the latest, if you want to take chances) and send it all to the campaign. It's all or nothing now, folks, time for the final desperate suicide charge at the barricades!

Really?

If I were running this show, I would simply ignore the email, as an embarrassing mistake best forgotten (kind of like the first NH TV ad, which I found painfully bad, but which we got past) and continue as planned, and blow everyone out of the water on December 16 -- as we have already announced to the entire world we intend to do (and you know what they'll do to us if it fizzles, for whatever reason -- including that we've torpedoed it ourselves). At this point, anything that will cause the Tea Party to be less than the most it can be will do far more harm to the campaign than any possible benefit that might be obtained by awkwardly changing course. If December 16th was a mistake, then we have to live with it -- because any alternative is a whole lot worse. A really big Tea Party, while not as ideal as collecting $10 million last May, will still be a real boost.

If the campaign's $12 million figure by December 31 -- which, contrary to the suggestion in the email, is already ahead of schedule (not "the entire $12 million in the last week of December") -- was a miscalculation, then they should live with it, not panic in public. It's not the end of the world, nor the end of the election.

For my part, if I see a whole lot of noise made about November 30, and it looks like that will puncture the balloon that was filling for December 16, I won't be participating in either. I'll wait for a "money bomb" -- if ever, after the next two fizzle -- that's worth investing in.

skinzterpswizfan
11-22-2007, 10:34 PM
Not speaking for Mark, but for myself: Of course anyone can donate any time they feel moved, and I'm not into discouraging anyone from donating. The problem for me is this November 30th Money Bomb idea, with associated publicity blitz, aimed at the general public beyond this forum. That goes far beyond just "donate [as an individual] before December 16th if you can." And it cannot help but take a lot of wind out of the sails of December 16th.



I just went back and read the email, and you know, I like it even less than I did when I first read it. What it really seems to be saying -- especially if all its partisans here are correct -- is something like: "Look, you guys have really screwed the campaign with this December 16th Tea Party '07 idea. If whatever money that is supposed to collect doesn't come in now (or better yet, yesterday), then Ron Paul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being elected, and it'll all be your fault."

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. While I will certainly agree that a good showing in New Hampshire and/or Iowa will be a great boon to the campaign, I do not believe that the entire election process hinges on just these two events, and that if Ron Paul doesn't win both of them he might as well just give up and go home. I'm no election historian, but I believe plenty of cases could be found where the winners of these two events were not the eventual nominees. The future is not set in stone; if it were, the Ron Paul campaign would never have gotten off the ground in the first place.



But, you see, that will always be the case. Not that I even agree that voters can't change their minds in the last week anyway. But it's the quality of desperation here, so early in the race, that I feel bodes ill. These are not the only primaries we'll be facing. If the campaign cannot possibly deal with even these two primaries unless everyone gives all they have now, what resources will be left for the next hurdles?

What about all the people who've already made up their minds? Maybe we've truly lost the election already, because we didn't give enough in July? Maybe July would have been too late anyway, we should have given in May? When is enough enough? You know, it is true: Ron Paul may not win. If we're going to shoot each other over that, why not just start now and get it over with?

If things really, truly are that desperate, here's my suggestion: Scrap December 16, take down the Tea Party '07 website, and issue a press release explaining that the Ron Paul campaign will be a total loss if everyone who was thinking about donating then (or later) doesn't clean out their entire bank account this minute (or by November 30 at the latest, if you want to take chances) and send it all to the campaign. It's all or nothing now, folks, time for the final desperate suicide charge at the barricades!

Really?

If I were running this show, I would simply ignore the email, as an embarrassing mistake best forgotten (kind of like the first NH TV ad, which I found painfully bad, but which we got past) and continue as planned, and blow everyone out of the water on December 16. If the campaign's $12 million figure by December 31 -- which, contrary to the suggestion in the email, is already ahead of schedule (not "the entire $12 million in the last week of December") -- was a miscalculation, then they should live with it, not panic in public. It's not the end of the world, or the end of the election.

For my part, if I see a whole lot of noise made about November 30, and it looks like that will puncture the balloon that was filling for December 16, I won't be participating in either. I'll wait for a "money bomb" -- if ever, after the next two fizzle -- that's worth investing in.

Ok, everyone listen to this guy because he knows better than the campaign does.

Mark Rushmore
11-22-2007, 10:35 PM
It boils down to having almost nothing to do about money.

There is a difference in thinking that goes far beyond the money issue.

The campaign seems to feel that, should there be no more moneybombs at all, it can advertise its way into the top tier.

Grassroots feel (for the most part) that the media is underplaying Dr. Paul and his support, and will continue to do so unless we can set some all-time in-your-face over-the-top fundraising record in one day - at which point the truth of his appeal will be forced into the light.

I happen to think the campaign is wrong, the message sells itself - that is true, but you can love the message and still think the candidate hasn't a shot in hell. I first came across Ron Paul on his Daily Show appearance and thought, "Man, that guy is pretty awesome." But then I didn't think another damn thing about him - cause he wasn't viable.

Once November 5th came around and he proved that this campaign wasn't just for show - I got on board at once, rallying people and only five days later carpooling down to the Philly Rally leaving at 4am to volunteer, etc... That's not to toot my own horn, I'm just saying that the moment someone who is inclined towards the message realizes "You know what? Call me crazy - but there's a chance here worth fighting for!" then you will generally have a hugely energized supporter spreading the message - often in the exponential fashion another current thread discusses.

That attribution of credibility and possibility has nothing to do with the message itself - and everything to do with public perception.

That perception, for better or for worse, depends largely on the treatment of the MSM. And that treatment I believe is also far more swayed by record-breaking news than by another dozen ads in Iowa.

My most serious fear - although I don't know anyone working on the campaign and would hope they are all the types who would be volunteering their time anyways - is that once given a 'title' or official position in the campaign - the emphasis starts to shift away from a miracle campaign and towards a stronger resume.

I just hope thinking like this doesn't lead to a perception that we'll just "blow the whole bank account in Iowa and New Hampshire - trying to guarantee at least a NH primary win to put on the old CV". But it seems to me it might be easy enough to start preferring the small but demonstrable victory to an amazing and nationally viable campaign that risks not taking home any primary win. Like I said - it's not an accusation - it's just a fear.

I've rambled enough.

McDermit
11-22-2007, 10:35 PM
Wow, I hate to say it, but after reading some other posts in this thread it strikes me that Mr. Bydlack, all of 24 years old, may not be enthused about money bombs in general as it might reflect poorly on his job performance when the grassroots do amazing things that he cannot replicate.

I am not saying he is doing a bad job, and I am not saying he is trying (at least consciously) to sabotage the Tea Party, but he is all of 24 years old - he may be having some insecurity issues that is causing him to act without fully thinking things through.

Thank you.

I won't repeat everything I've posted in other threads, but he is actually 23, I believe. And barely 2 years out of school. Graduated with my ex. :rolleyes:

I still haven't been able to figure out why he was hired for the position, given his limited involvement in the grassroots and his complete lack of experience. :confused:

monotony
11-22-2007, 10:44 PM
Wow, I hate to say it, but after reading some other posts in this thread it strikes me that Mr. Bydlack, all of 24 years old, may not be enthused about money bombs in general as it might reflect poorly on his job performance when the grassroots do amazing things that he cannot replicate.

I am not saying he is doing a bad job, and I am not saying he is trying (at least consciously) to sabotage the Tea Party, but he is all of 24 years old - he may be having some insecurity issues that is causing him to act without fully thinking things through.

Although I have considered the possibility of his ego getting the better of him, I think it more comes down to just not being extremely competent in understanding the phenomenon going on around him. He is obviously a very smart guy, yet lacking in experience or the integral thinking that needs to be employed regarding Paul's campaign. I blame this primarily on his age and inexperience, not anything personally deficient with his personality or character. But HQ really needs to be made to understand that their campaign is nothing like any before in history, and they need to stop trying to run the campaign as if they are Giuliani or Romney, except with less money.

This campaign's greatest strength is the decentralized support of thousands of dedicated, creative, organized, brilliant, motivated, and amazing individuals coming together using their own resources for the common goal of freedom. HQ should implement the similar free market principles that they advocate for better gov't to their campaign. They should be creating ad contests, allowing the grassroots to step up to the challenge, and spending the money on a worthwhile final product. I'm sorry, but spending millions to disseminate the crappy ads they are turning out makes me want to donate all my money to grassroots efforts and forego donating to the campaign altogether.

I don't think i'm the only one that has had the same experience of:

1) consistently being blown away by just about the everything the grassroots community has produced

2) continued disappointment regarding just about everything that the official campaign has produced

The campaign needs to figure out how to utilize a feedback loop so it can learn to leverage the grassroots rather than frustrate our efforts.

Mark37snj
11-22-2007, 10:44 PM
Not speaking for Mark, but for myself: Of course anyone can donate any time they feel moved, and I'm not into discouraging anyone from donating. The problem for me is this November 30th Money Bomb idea, with associated publicity blitz, aimed at the general public beyond this forum. That goes far beyond just "donate [as an individual] before December 16th if you can." And it cannot help but take a lot of wind out of the sails of December 16th.



I just went back and read the email, and you know, I like it even less than I did when I first read it. What it really seems to be saying -- especially if all its partisans here are correct -- is something like: "Look, you guys have really screwed the campaign with this December 16th Tea Party '07 idea. If whatever money that is supposed to collect doesn't come in now (or better yet, yesterday), then Ron Paul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being elected, and it'll all be your fault."

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. While I will certainly agree that a good showing in New Hampshire and/or Iowa will be a great boon to the campaign, I do not believe that the entire election process hinges on just these two events, and that if Ron Paul doesn't win both of them he might as well just give up and go home. I'm no election historian, but I believe plenty of cases could be found where the winners of these two events were not the eventual nominees. The future is not set in stone; if it were, the Ron Paul campaign would never have gotten off the ground in the first place.



But, you see, that will always be the case. Not that I even agree that voters can't change their minds in the last week anyway. But it's the quality of desperation here, so early in the race, that I feel bodes ill. These are not the only primaries we'll be facing. If the campaign cannot possibly deal with even these two primaries unless everyone gives all they have now, what resources will be left for the next hurdles?

What about all the people who've already made up their minds? Maybe we've truly lost the election already, because we didn't give enough in July? Maybe July would have been too late anyway, we should have given in May? When is enough enough? You know, it is true: Ron Paul may not win. If we're going to shoot each other over that, why not just start now and get it over with?

If things really, truly are that desperate, here's my suggestion: Scrap December 16, take down the Tea Party '07 website, and issue a press release explaining that the Ron Paul campaign will be a total loss if everyone who was thinking about donating then (or later) doesn't clean out their entire bank account this minute (or by November 30 at the latest, if you want to take chances) and send it all to the campaign. It's all or nothing now, folks, time for the final desperate suicide charge at the barricades!

Really?

If I were running this show, I would simply ignore the email, as an embarrassing mistake best forgotten (kind of like the first NH TV ad, which I found painfully bad, but which we got past) and continue as planned, and blow everyone out of the water on December 16 -- as we have already announced to the entire world we intend to do (and you know what they'll do to us if it fizzles, for whatever reason -- including that we've torpedoed it ourselves). If the campaign's $12 million figure by December 31 -- which, contrary to the suggestion in the email, is already ahead of schedule (not "the entire $12 million in the last week of December") -- was a miscalculation, then they should live with it, not panic in public. It's not the end of the world, or the end of the election.

For my part, if I see a whole lot of noise made about November 30, and it looks like that will puncture the balloon that was filling for December 16, I won't be participating in either. I'll wait for a "money bomb" -- if ever, after the next two fizzle -- that's worth investing in.

I also agree 100%. Maybe you should be running that part of the campaign. Did you know that the person responsible for that email is some wet behing the ears 23 year old kid just out of school with no experience at all in grassroots campaigning.

Edit: for all of you around the age of 23, I would love to still be wet behind the ears, one day you will too.

Politeia
11-22-2007, 11:03 PM
Ok, everyone listen to this guy because he knows better than the campaign does.

This is sarcasm, I gather? Please have sufficient respect not to put words in my mouth. I am a libertarian; I have been a libertarian since before many on this forum were born. I speak for myself only. But I will speak for myself.

BTW, I added a few more words to my post after the thread had gone on to the next page; if anyone is interested in what I have to say, you might check it out again.

I would prefer not to get into speculations about the fellow who wrote the email, his competence or motivations. I'm sure he's doing his best. But I do feel there is a problem, a kind of cognitive dissonance, between the official campaign and the grassroots, which a couple of posters have expressed pretty well.

But I think the best solution to this problem is actually rather simple: just maintain the separation and distance between the two. The email was a mistake mostly because it muddied that separation, and some in the grassroots have compounded the mistake by getting caught up in the sense of panic projected by the email.

If the email had been more just a routine fundraising appeal, with a little upbeat "we're doing great" stuff thrown in, rather than the sense of desperation and implication that the grassroots' best effort was somehow to blame for some perceived lack of success, it would have been fine.

It's true that this campaign is like no other in history. We're making history. Mistakes will be made. Hopefully we can learn from them. Campaign HQ and the Grassroots have the same goal in mind, but we're on separate tracks; in all, I think it's best we both remember that, and leave each other alone to do what we know best.

As I said, I really didn't like the first NH TV ad, but I felt the storm of outrage here and at Daily Paul was counterproductive. Maybe HQ does know best, about the audience they're trying to reach. But we know some stuff too, as we've proven. Nothing we've done has hurt the campaign. Let everyone do what they know best.

And remember, even if Ron Paul does not win, it won't be the end of the world. On the contrary, with all that's already happened, it could be the beginning of a whole new world -- one I never expected to see. Liberty may not be won overnight, but even that more than a handful are interested is already a Revolution.

monotony
11-22-2007, 11:06 PM
I also agree 100%. Maybe you should be running that part of the campaign. Did you know that the person responsible for that email is some wet behing the ears 23 year old kid just out of school with no experience at all in grassroots campaigning.

Edit: for all of you around the age of 23, I would love to still be wet behind the ears, one day you will too.

Bydlak should not be allowed to send out any more emails requesting donations. If anyone is going to do that it should be Paul, whose writing and communication skills are 1000x better. This issue has much more to do with the way in which the donations were asked for rather than the request for donations itself.

If there would have simply been a plea to donate, without having to disparage or diminish the Tea Party, it would have raised just as much money and not wasted nearly as much time or resources and alienating many frustrated supporters.

skinzterpswizfan
11-22-2007, 11:08 PM
This is sarcasm, I gather? Please have sufficient respect not to put words in my mouth. I am a libertarian; I have been a libertarian since before many on this forum were born. I speak for myself only. But I will speak for myself.

BTW, I added a few more words to my post after the thread had gone on to the next page; if anyone is interested in what I have to say, you might check it out again.

I would prefer not to get into speculations about the fellow who wrote the email, his competence or motivations. I do feel there is a problem, a kind of cognitive dissonance, between the official campaign and the grassroots, which a couple of posters have expressed pretty well.

But I think the best solution to this problem is actually rather simple: just maintain the separation and distance between the two. The email was a mistake mostly because it muddied that separation, and some in the grassroots have compounded the mistake by getting caught up in the sense of panic projected by the email.

If the email had been more just a routine fundraising appeal, with a little upbeat "we're doing great" stuff thrown in, rather than the sense of desperation and implication that the grassroots' best effort was somehow to blame for some perceived lack of success, it would have been fine.

It's true that this campaign is like no other in history. We're making history. Mistakes will be made. Hopefully we can learn from them. Campaign HQ and the Grassroots have the same goal in mind, but we're on separate tracks; in all, I think it's best we both remember that, and leave each other alone to do what we know best.

As I said, I really didn't like the first NH TV ad, but I felt the storm of outrage here and at Daily Paul was counterproductive. Maybe HQ does know best, about the audience they're trying to reach. But we know some stuff too, as we've proven. Nothing we've done has hurt the campaign. Let everyone do what they know best.

And remember, even if Ron Paul does not win, it won't be the end of the world. On the contrary, with all that's already happened, it could be the beginning of a whole new world -- one I never expected to see. Liberty may not be won overnight, but even that more than a handful are interested is already a Revolution.

I apologize for being sarcastic, I'm just pretty frustrated with the divide that has occurred between supporters and the campaign and between supporters themselves.

Original_Intent
11-22-2007, 11:13 PM
Bydlak should not be allowed to send out any more emails requesting donations. If anyone is going to do that it should be Paul, whose writing and communication skills are 1000x better. This issue has much more to do with the way in which the donations were asked for rather than the request for donations itself.

If there would have simply been a plea to donate, without having to disparage or diminish the Tea Party, it would have raised just as much money and not wasted nearly as much time or resources and alienating many frustrated supporters.

Bingo. If this request had come from Ron Paul himself, I would not have liked it but you would not have heard a peep out of me. Ron Paul never would have sent that piece of crap out the door.

Mark Rushmore
11-22-2007, 11:19 PM
If there would have simply been a plea to donate, without having to disparage or diminish the Tea Party, it would have raised just as much money and not wasted nearly as much time or resources and alienating many frustrated supporters.

To be blunt, it's almost worse than that. The magic of the campaign came on November 5th when people who were drawn to the message but viewed the campaign as hopeless, finally caught the hope. That day that so many said, "Wow, they're really doing it! The crazy sons-of-bitches really have a chance!"

NOTHING is more important to this campaign than convincing people that it really can win - and the e-mail cut this perception off at the knees.

Politeia
11-22-2007, 11:24 PM
I apologize for being sarcastic, I'm just pretty frustrated with the divide that has occurred between supporters and the campaign and between supporters themselves.

Accepted. Feelings are running high; we all care about this a great deal. But it's going to be a long road; we need to pace ourselves. Which means not succumbing to panic, which does no good any time. Sometimes -- unlike our current mess in Iraq -- staying the course is the right thing to do.

Even if Ron Paul does win, it'll still be a long road. We might as well start practicing patience now. And fortitude. And courtesy, and all those other traits of character that Dr. Paul himself exemplifies so well. Which is how he's been able to stay his course for 30 years, against some pretty steep odds.

Politeia
11-22-2007, 11:33 PM
The magic of the campaign came on November 5th when people who were drawn to the message but viewed the campaign as hopeless, finally caught the hope. That day that so many said, "Wow, they're really doing it! The crazy sons-of-bitches really have a chance!"

There've been several magic moments. For me, it was seeing the video of Dr. Paul facing down Ghouliani in the first debate -- which Dr. Paul himself thought he'd lost (as the crowd cheered Rudy) until he went backstage and was told he was winning the online poll.

As I've said, I've admired and supported Ron Paul for over 25 years, but that event was what inspired me to pay attention to politics again -- not even so much "he can win" as "he deserves my support [such as it may be]" whatever happens next.

But your point is indeed very important. November 5 was a huge high, and December 16 can be too, if it isn't derailed. A win in NH can be a high too, of course. But HQ's way of working toward that win and Grassroots' way are different, and I believe they both can do their best without interfering with each other.

It's been remarked that the Ron Paul campaign is in itself a perfect demonstration of the Spontaneous Order than libertarians talk about -- but any attempt to corral and "lead" that spontaneity will kill it. That's why the other campaigns are totally stumped by what's happening here -- because it can't be ordered from the top, and that's all any of them know how to do.

blamx8
11-22-2007, 11:43 PM
My .02 on Bydlak is this. Yes he is young and unexperienced. He is not immune from making mistakes, but who is? The kid is in uncharted waters. Is there anyone in the nation that has been in charge of fundraisisng for a grassfire like this one? Who does he turn to for advise on how to go about this and get RP elected?

I know we say that he should listen to what we say because the right ideas seem to circulate on this board before hand. But we must admit that for every homerun idea on this board there is someone equally as smart that feels the idea is a bad one and would approach the need from a different direction. Hind site may be great but again the question is who does he listen to?

I think that Bydlak is 100% committed to do whatever he can to get RP elected. He has simply tried with this campaign what the best before him have done successfully. The difference is that he is dealing with a spirited stallion instead of an old plow horse. Let's forgive the guy his attempt to encourage more monetary commitment from us and move on.

Finally, if I give $500 to the campain on the 30th, knowing that it would have gone to the teaparty other wise, and because I dont want to hurt the cause I step out of my comfort area a little more and get 5 extra people to commit $100 apeice, have I helped or hurt the effort?

If it stretches us, and pushes us, and we respond, we only will grow stronger.

An excerpt from one of my favorite poems, Good Timber:

Good timber does not grow in ease
the stronger wind, the tougher trees,
the farther sky, the greater length,
the rougher storms, the greater strength,
by sun and cold, by rain and snows,
in trees or man good timber grows.
Anonymous

stevedasbach
11-22-2007, 11:47 PM
Notice that a LOT of the November 30 supporters have joined within the last month or two? Also notice that the long time members - Josh, LibertyEagle, and many others tend to downplay the 30th in favor of the 16th?


This may simply reflect the fact that new supporters are ready and eager to donate multiple times, just as many long time members have in the past. As I recall, over half of the Nov 5th contributions came from new donors.

xerxesdarius
11-22-2007, 11:47 PM
To be blunt, it's almost worse than that. The magic of the campaign came on November 5th when people who were drawn to the message but viewed the campaign as hopeless, finally caught the hope. That day that so many said, "Wow, they're really doing it! The crazy sons-of-bitches really have a chance!"

NOTHING is more important to this campaign than convincing people that it really can win - and the e-mail cut this perception off at the knees.

Bingo. Money won't win this, the extraordinary nature of the message and the extraordinary enthusiasm of grassroots will. Viewed in that way, we should be donating what we can now, saving for the tea party and CANVASSING.

Politeia
11-22-2007, 11:54 PM
I think that Bdylak is 100% committed to do whatever he can to get RP elected. Let's forgive the guy his attempt to encourage more monetary commitment from us and move on.

It's Bydlak, BTW. And I too wish some in this thread had restrained their criticisms of him, which were unnecessary and less than kind. I'm sure he's doing his best.


Finally, if I give $500 to the campain on the 30th, knowing that it would have gone to the teaparty other wise, and because I dont want to hurt the cause I step out of my comfort area a little more and get 5 extra people to commit $100 apeice, have I helped or hurt the effort? If it stretches us, and pushes us, and we respond, we only will grow stronger.

Not everyone is in a position to do this. What's happened is, because apparently the grassroots folks running Tea Party '07 caught the panic bug from HQ's email, and are now publicly promoting another "money bomb" on November 30, some are faced with a dilemma: Shall I contribute what I can on November 30, or December 16? Assuming that some will choose the former (after all, the situation is apparently desperate, otherwise why the change in plans?), the result will be, unavoidably, that December 16 will now be smaller than it would have been. Which I, for one, regard as unfortunate.

Maybe it'll all work out; maybe there'll be enough new recruits between November 30 and December 16 to make the Tea Party a great success regardless. But maybe not. And the risk could have been avoided by not panicking at what I at least consider an ill-advised email from HQ.

And in any case, any November 30 "money bomb" will not be big enough to command any attention as a "money bomb", which considerably dilutes the whole "money bomb" idea as a gimmick. "It's the weekly $1 million Ron Paul Money Bomb!" It's a loser.

blamx8
11-23-2007, 12:18 AM
Thanks Politeia, I corrected my spelling.

I am also not in a position to give $500 on the 30th, but I am in a position to step up my efforts and bring in more supporters to give on the 16th. It seems that when I give my property to a cause I become more solidified in my support of that cause.

I am sure, based on the reaction of many, that the email from HQ was not the best approach to take. Just like you I hope that all this works out for the best. Tonight I had my sister and Brother-in-law give a soft commitment to donate on the 16th and they are in a position to do so. They have been sporting a sign in front of their house for 3 weeks now compliments of yours truly. When they sign up I will have 4 more to go.

I think it will happen, if we make it.

wfd40
11-23-2007, 12:24 AM
Bydlak should not be allowed to send out any more emails requesting donations. If anyone is going to do that it should be Paul, whose writing and communication skills are 1000x better. This issue has much more to do with the way in which the donations were asked for rather than the request for donations itself.

If there would have simply been a plea to donate, without having to disparage or diminish the Tea Party, it would have raised just as much money and not wasted nearly as much time or resources and alienating many frustrated supporters.

When I get emails from the Obama campaign, they are from one of three people... Barack himself, his wife or the campaign DIRECTOR (who is at the level of Rove in terms of skill/experience).

In other words, the fact that some kid my age, with absolutely no experience in running a national election campaign, let alone one for a state assemblyman, is sending out an email to 10s of thousands of Ron Paul supporters - and not just any email mind you, but one castigating the grassroots for going full throttle on what could end up being the single most powerful-game-changing-event in the history of modern primary politics - completely blows my mind.

First phili and now this...

I'm sorry, but it has to stop and it has to stop right now.

For those of you clamoring for the 30th... please stop. I'm sure you mean well.... but I have to believe that, deep down, you know youre wrong.

The people of America need to be SHOCKED AND AWED. They need to be able to see all of the press and think to themselves, "you know what, this guys got a lot of support! Why aren't I supporting him... I like to be on the side of the eventual winner and this guy just might win!" (This is how the MSM is selling clinton to the masses... "pick her, she'll win"...)

10million dollars in one day will do that.

(and just so you don't think I've considered my conclusions carefully enough.. I was one of those 'early guys against the whole v for vendetta guy fawkes day' thing... ;)

Original_Intent
11-23-2007, 12:29 AM
I got my dad to commit today to donating on the 16th. I doubt he will do $100 (he isn't pledged and won't) but he said he would do at least $25, maybe more.

He is a RP supporter but is retired/fixed income. Every little bit helps and he will also count as a new contributor. :)

Wyurm
11-23-2007, 12:42 AM
Politeia,

I read all of your posts all the way through. I need to start off by saying "thank you" for putting what many of us have been thinking into words that are respectful and meaningful. The campaign is comprised of supporters, while most presidential campaigns are hired hands who do this for a living. So, it is to be expected that they will have problems, misunderstandings, and sometimes get angry with us because they aren't allowed to interfere with what we are doing. Infact that email actually crossed the line.

However, before anyone here makes a snap judgement against the campaign, please think about your own selves. Have you ever panicked at work because a deadline was comming up and your team didn't seem to be doing what you felt was needed? Have you ever made a bad decision and screwed up royally? If the answer is yes, then you aren't in the best place to judge them.

My main problem with the email is that it was not only negative, it actually made me stop and re-think my support as well as my donations. I went from being happy and optimistic about the campaign to feeling as though I was wrong about all of it.

Then I thought about Dr. Paul and realized he couldn't have had anything to do with this, and it's Dr. Paul I'm trying to get elected, not his campaign. I seriously wish the campaign would come out with an apology and brief explaination of why they felt it was ok to take that tone with voluntary supporters, however, I also do not expect such an apology.

The fact is that this campaign is about freedom and empowerment. If the campaign is acting contrary to empowerment, then we should look at why. When you look at the numbers it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I agree that we really should just write this off as a big mistake and go back to doing what we do best. We should resume promoting Dr. Paul and I sincerely hope everyone looks to the 16th rather than other dates. We invested way too much in the 16th to allow it to be knocked aside now. There are far too many voters who will have their eyes on Dr. Paul on the 16th, fully expecting him to raise 10 mil plus. If he doesn't get that, then no amount of advertising will make up for the negative press he will receive on account of our failure to ignore a tragic mistake.

blamx8
11-23-2007, 12:46 AM
Good work OI.

I read this thread http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40456 about exponential growth. It is that kind of thing coupled with efforts like yours that makes me think the 30th won't ruin the 16th and may, by kicking us in the pants, make it even better.