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tangent4ronpaul
02-07-2013, 02:02 AM
http://www.mercurynews.com/columns/ci_22537184/lockstep-march-ban-plastic-bags

Like children being led by the Pied Piper into a politically correct forest, Peninsula cities are following San Mateo County's siren song by banning plastic take-out bags and charging us for any paper bags we may need -- 10 cents now, 25 cents later.
Who could be against that noble effort?
I am, because people are leaping on a bandwagon with little thought and much misinformation.
In October, San Mateo County encouraged all cities under its jurisdiction to adopt the ban it passed. Several cities followed the leader -- Menlo Park, Woodside, Portola Valley, San Mateo, Belmont, South San Francisco and Foster City. A couple of Santa Clara County cities -- Palo Alto and Mountain View -- also ban plastic bags.
The city councils' discussions were devoid of probing questions or debate about the value of preserving plastic or biodegradable bags. The bans were imposed with unison nods of agreement.
Why so little serious discussion?
Follow the money. If a city council member wants to change any provision of the environmental impact report done for the county's plastic bags ordinance, his or her city would have to do its own environmental report. In Menlo Park, Council Member Catherine Carlton wanted to allow biodegradable plastic bags but concluded it wasn't worth $50,000 to do a separate EIR just because the county's didn't include such bags.
The other money rub is that the state asked municipalities to reduce their storm drain waste by 40 percent. But a carrot was offered -- if cities ban take-out plastic bags they get credit for that and officials can declare the storm waste has been reduced. No proof needed.
So this ban is not really about saving Earth. It's about following that Pied Piper, avoiding money for an EIR, and satisfying the state's request to reduce storm drain waste. Plus, it lets our council members feel politically correct.
Back in the 1990s, environmentalists told us how bad it was to use brown paper bags because we were cutting down trees and denuding rain forests. Plastic was the way to go.
But then the message changed. Environmentalists claimed plastic bags used too many petrochemicals to produce. We had to be environmentally better, they said.
If plastics are bad, why don't we also ban plastic produce and meat bags, those big black trash and yard trimming bags, the plastic used to wrap clothes from the cleaners, food storage bags? Why is it better for us to purchase trash can plastic bags from the store than use the free ones we were getting?
The anti-plastic-bag group was silent on those issues. Its focus was only to ban single-use plastic bags.
The petrochemical problem then morphed into an argument a couple of years ago that plastic bags were hurting fish and San Francisquito Creek, as well as contributing to the Pacific Ocean gyre. Save the Bay sent letters to the editor stating that 95 percent of the plastic bags end up in the San Francisco Bay. It's impossible to document that.
In Palo Alto, have council members checked the creek to see whether the ban is effective? Just asking.
Now we have a new goal. Ban both plastic and paper, and use only recyclable bags for groceries and purchases from pharmacies, restaurants, department stores and big box stores. Most of the recyclables are produced outside the United States. That's not good for our economy, though public outcry has not yet erupted.
But the plastic bag is not the ogre we claim it is. According to a November Boston Globe article, the plastic bag is a "triumph" of cost-effective engineering. It weighs practically nothing, has good handles and water-resistant walls, and can carry up to 2,000 times its weight. Moreover, it costs practically nothing to produce; brown bags are four times more expensive.
And about this "single-use" nomenclature, the presumption is we take our groceries home and throw all plastic bags away (by sneaking up to the San Francisco Bay at night to toss them?).
I've asked many people what they do with their bags. Responses varied from using them as dog poop containers to trash can liners to holding decorations, off-season clothing, garage items, lunch, and giving garden lemons to neighbors. Certainly not single use.
Political zealotry is at work. That's why I am so disappointed with local city councils who on most other issues explore and analyze, then think their way through to the right decision.
Maybe the Pied Piper's playing got in the way.

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It gets worse...
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National Plastic Bag Ban Would Kill 1,380 People
http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/national-plastic-bag-ban-would-kill-1380-people/

Environmentalists have discovered that banning plastic bags and forcing people into the reusable bag business, not only increases recyclables, but kills people, recycling their corpses into the planet. For environmentalists who think that human beings are an infestation on the skin of mother earth, this is a good thing. For sane ethical people however this should be horrifying news.

Klick and Wright estimate that the San Francisco ban results in a 46 percent increase in deaths from foodborne illnesses, or 5.5 more of them each year. They then run through a cost-benefit analysis employing the same estimate of the value of a human life that the Environmental Protection Agency uses when evaluating regulations that are supposed to save lives. They conclude that the anti-plastic-bag policies can’t pass the test — and that’s before counting the higher health-care costs they generate.

Do we really need a cost-benefit analysis to argue that doubling the number of deaths in a category is a bad thing?

Across California counties, the study has found an increase of 16 deaths. And those numbers will get worse as they expand beyond the yuppie population that actively likes using reusable bags and down into low income areas where they will be used sloppily and casually out of necessity, not by choice.

There’s an estimated 61 percent rise in ER visits due to E Coli and the estimated cost of all this is over 100 million dollars.

So now let’s consider what a national plastic bag ban would look like based on the national foodborne illness rates.

The CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 in 6 Americans (or 48 million people) gets sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die of foodborne diseases.

That number will go up to at least 64 million or 1 in 5 Americans. Assuming a 46 percent increase in the national foodborne illness death toll… we end up with 1,380 more people dying under a ban.

Julia Louis Dreyfus and Eva Longoria may have actual blood on their hands. But it’s not as if this will affect them. And for environmentalists, murdering an added 1,380 people, many of them from low income groups, is not a bug, it’s a feature.

-t

Natural Citizen
02-07-2013, 02:18 AM
I'm getting kind of sick of chasing them across my lawn all of the time, personally.

MRK
02-07-2013, 03:13 AM
I'm getting kind of sick of chasing them across my lawn all of the time, personally.

Understandable. However your current problem seems to lie with living in a city with uncivilized animals who don't clean up their own waste. I don't have that problem where I live now, but I've experienced it before.

Jackie Moon
02-07-2013, 03:41 AM
They've banned them here in Portlandia too. First it was a fee for plastic bags, then a ban at grocery stores, and now a full ban at all stores.



Back in the 1990s, environmentalists told us how bad it was to use brown paper bags because we were cutting down trees and denuding rain forests. Plastic was the way to go.



But then the message changed. Environmentalists claimed plastic bags used too many petrochemicals to produce. We had to be environmentally better, they said.
If plastics are bad, why don't we also ban plastic produce and meat bags, those big black trash and yard trimming bags, the plastic used to wrap clothes from the cleaners, food storage bags? Why is it better for us to purchase trash can plastic bags from the store than use the free ones we were getting?



I've asked many people what they do with their bags. Responses varied from using them as dog poop containers to trash can liners to holding decorations, off-season clothing, garage items, lunch, and giving garden lemons to neighbors. Certainly not single use.

These are the exact three things that I've said about the ban here.

I remember being taught in school that paper was bad for the trees and you should always choose plastic. Also, they claim that the plastic grocery bags are bad for the environment and clog the machines that do the recycling. But there are still nearly identical bags being used as garbage bags, sandwich bags, bags around loafs of bread, etc. Finally, I never just threw away my plastic bags. Now that we don't have them you notice how much you needed them for things around the house.

Not to mention that plastic bags kick the crap out of paper bags for actually carrying things like groceries.

Every time my paper bags rip I curse the mayor that thinks he has the right to interfere with the voluntary relationship between a store and it's customers.

tangent4ronpaul
02-07-2013, 04:19 AM
pssssttt kid! - could I interest you in a bunch of contraband plastic bags?

seriously though, if you need some I'm sure I have at least 30 in the trash waiting to go out and we recently tossed hundreds as they were using up too much space under the sink and we only have so many trash cans to line. PM me an address if you want me to send you a bunch.

-t

Restore America Now
02-07-2013, 04:35 AM
Do you ever feel like a plastic bag?

Luciconsort
02-07-2013, 05:07 AM
Industrialized Hemp.... next case Bailiff.

kathy88
02-07-2013, 05:48 AM
Just heard on the AP news last night NYC is proposing banning styrofoam take out containers.

awake
02-07-2013, 05:53 AM
Get the out of the way of the do gooders, they will drive over you in their car to stop the horrific possibility of a plastic bag hitting the ground.

tangent4ronpaul
02-07-2013, 05:53 AM
Just heard on the AP news last night NYC is proposing styrofoam take out containers.

I think you are missing the word "banning".

Shame, it makes AWESOME napalm! :D

-t

JK/SEA
02-07-2013, 06:58 AM
i keep empty boxes in my trunk and backseat. I tell the checker to just put my items back in the cart and i'll deal with it at my car. I get interesting looks. More than one way to skin a cat...

Working Poor
02-07-2013, 08:21 AM
I agree that plastic is more sanitary. Maybe we one day make it from hemp and it will safer for the planet. Marine life suffers the most from plastic. There is not a square inch of the ocean flor thst is not covered by plastic. All the fish and mamals breath it and ingest it. Pretty soon plastic will be apart of our dna matbe it already is.

acptulsa
02-07-2013, 08:26 AM
Follow the money. If a city council member wants to change any provision of the environmental impact report done for the county's plastic bags ordinance, his or her city would have to do its own environmental report. In Menlo Park, Council Member Catherine Carlton wanted to allow biodegradable plastic bags but concluded it wasn't worth $50,000 to do a separate EIR just because the county's didn't include such bags.

Studies and reports not to ascertain the truth about matters, but rather used to lock communities into specific courses of action regardless of the consequences. California is certainly worthy of study. No one but Washington, D.C. does a better job of demonstrating how not to run government.

pcosmar
02-07-2013, 08:30 AM
I'm getting kind of sick of chasing them across my lawn all of the time, personally.

Then stop,
They will leave the same way they got there.

Dr.3D
02-07-2013, 09:11 AM
Then stop,
They will leave the same way they got there.
Yep, I never rake leaves either. They seem to disappear anyway.

When asked at the store, "paper or plastic", I always say plastic is more environmentally sound. The manufacture of paper pollutes water.

Natural Citizen
02-07-2013, 09:38 AM
i keep empty boxes in my trunk and backseat. I tell the checker to just put my items back in the cart and i'll deal with it at my car. I get interesting looks. More than one way to skin a cat...

Yep. That's what we do too.

Natural Citizen
02-07-2013, 09:44 AM
Then stop,
They will leave the same way they got there.

Nope. They just get stuck in the bushes and trees. Plus I'm obsessive compulsive when it comes to my lawn. It's not really the plastic bag, per se, that plucks me. I swear I dug a 2 foot hole to get rid of a small patch of creeping bent grass I brought home from the golf course that took root.

The other poster was right though. Sloppy people just don't care. They just seem to toss trash into their cans and then when the truck comes, it blows everywhere.

Henry Rogue
02-07-2013, 10:00 AM
pssssttt kid! - could I interest you in a bunch of contraband plastic bags?

seriously though, if you need some I'm sure I have at least 30 in the trash waiting to go out and we recently tossed hundreds as they were using up too much space under the sink and we only have so many trash cans to line. PM me an address if you want me to send you a bunch.

-t If you walk a dog through a town like I do. You will always be running low on plastic bags.

brushfire
02-07-2013, 10:17 AM
If you recycle them, I dont see the problem... We reuse them all the time, and when we dont we recycle them.

Lucille
02-07-2013, 10:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKg6OJ6zhhc

pcosmar
02-07-2013, 10:57 AM
If you recycle them, I dont see the problem... We reuse them all the time, and when we dont we recycle them.

Yup,, several stores recycle them.
My Mom makes rugs from them. They make great doormats.

http://pinterest.com/sherron/plastic-bag-crafts/

http://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/550/53/91/68/539168d1ac6657863a41f8131c44a99c.jpg