libertarians on bullying

[UMULAS]

.......

[libertygrl]

I think it should be up to the school and the parents - NOT the government to get involved.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I have meeting at my school about bullying. May anyone help me on this question please!

What should be the proper role of the government on bullying such as kids fighting in school or being picked on?

My idea is that a kid can fight only on self defence (I can only think of the 2nd amendment but it only talks about the rigtht to bear arms for defence), but what about if the kid can't fight and he is still being physically harrased?

Bullying really helped me a lot back when I went to school. To use just one example, my mother taught me as a toddler to pull my pants and underwear all the way to the ground when taking a tinkle. Well, it always puzzled me in the first grade the way the older boys would always laugh when I took a tinkle at the urinal in this way. It wasn't until I was a senior in high school when a bigger boy finally came over with a doubled up fist that I realized how improper my tinkling was.

I blame all the bullying on mothers.

[gwax23]

My biggest problem with bullying when I was a kid (And I was bullied a lot) is most schools policy towards bullying.

To put it simply schools dont give a shit about the bullied regardless of what bullshit ad campaign they have going on to score some more bucks which does little to solve the real problem of bullying. And yes its a real issue, not something the government should or could solve but an issue nonetheless.

In most of the schools I attended (...and I went to a few because we moved around alot) and im sure this is the same with many others. The school had a policy of punishing both the bully and the victim whenever the victim eventually stood up for him or herself. Its a bullshit policy in which the schools claim they want to be fair when in reality they punish people for standing up for themselves and embed at a young age the notion that you need to be dependent on the school and its faculty for protection and security rather than stand up for yourself.

It also has the double positive for the school that it prevents them from doing... oh idk maybe 5 minutes worth of research into the happenings and goings on in their student body to determine the root cause of a fight between a bully and a victim. Most of the time its obvious who the victim is but the schools rarely care. Especially in small towns where many times the bully has some personal relationship or connection with many teachers either directly or through parents and older siblings which helps them get away with a lot at the expense of the bullied.

The only way to deal with bullying is not to punish kids for defending themselves but rather actively encourage it.

When you put the BULLY and the VICTIM on the same level in terms of punishment you are setting the worst example possible.

That needs to stop. Will it end bullying? No, but anyone who suggests anything will is a liar.

This simple cost free policy decision would do far more than any bullshit class, lecture, poster, advert, or any other form of wasted tax payer funds ever would do.

[sailingaway]

at some level the government should stop violence (the local govt). But children and schools should be within the ambit of family and community until it gets unreasonably extreme.

I agree the victim shouldn't be 'punished too' if they can find the right of it.

[dannno]

My biggest problem with bullying when I was a kid (And I was bullied a lot) is most schools policy towards bullying.

To put it simply schools dont give a shit about the bullied regardless of what bullshit ad campaign they have going on to score some more bucks which does little to solve the real problem of bullying. And yes its a real issue, not something the government should or could solve but an issue nonetheless.

In most of the schools I attended (...and I went to a few because we moved around alot) and im sure this is the same with many others. The school had a policy of punishing both the bully and the victim whenever the victim eventually stood up for him or herself. Its a bullshit policy in which the schools claim they want to be fair when in reality they punish people for standing up for themselves and embed at a young age the notion that you need to be dependent on the school and its faculty for protection and security rather than stand up for yourself.

It also has the double positive for the school that it prevents them from doing... oh idk maybe 5 minutes worth of research into the happenings and goings on in their student body to determine the root cause of a fight between a bully and a victim. Most of the time its obvious who the victim is but the schools rarely care. Especially in small towns where many times the bully has some personal relationship or connection with many teachers either directly or through parents and older siblings which helps them get away with a lot at the expense of the bullied.

The only way to deal with bullying is not to punish kids for defending themselves but rather actively encourage it.

When you put the BULLY and the VICTIM on the same level in terms of punishment you are setting the worst example possible.

That needs to stop. Will it end bullying? No, but anyone who suggests anything will is a liar.

This simple cost free policy decision would do far more than any bullshit class, lecture, poster, advert, or any other form of wasted tax payer funds ever would do.

This is good but probably won't go over well in the meeting.

[Expatriate]

Well, to go to the root of the problem the state could stop bullying parents into sending their kids to school, and they could stop bullying the rest of us into paying for those schools where children bully each other.

That probably won't fly at a school meeting though, so instead I would recommend bringing up some of the points "gwax23" mentioned above. The policy of punishing both the bully and the victim is surprisingly widespread.

[DamianTV]

Lets first make sure we understand what the TRUE problem is. The real source of Bullying in schools is not from other students, but the very Educational System itself. Teachers are the Real Bullies, and they dont even know it.

Summarized: Residual Emotional Dependancy on the Approval of Educators.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Well, to go to the root of the problem the state could stop bullying parents into sending their kids to school, and they could stop bullying the rest of us into paying for those schools where children bully each other.

That probably won't fly at a school meeting though, so instead I would recommend bringing up some of the points "gwax23" mentioned above. The policy of punishing both the bully and the victim is surprisingly widespread.

Reduce reduce reduce. Our Founders established a new nation on a natural law. So, what is the natural law concerning education? Okay, on one of the spectrum concerning the king, a teacher trained him to take his rightful position after the passing away of his parents. Back when he was a prince, the king was trained how a ruler should best deal with his subjects in order to maintain his kingdom. On the other end of the spectrum concerning the prostitute, Socrates in the Platonic dialogue entitled "Meno" showed how the mind of a slave child could advance (learn) if a serving mid-wife philosopher were willing to serve them.
This is the new order. It has been ushering in for thousands of years. Our Founders did a great job of cornering the king into accepting this new order, but even in the United States tyranny has managed to wiggle its way out by compromising.
So, what is a natural law concerning education. What is both in the best interest of the disadvantaged and a detriment to tyranny? Concerning the prostitute and her well being, "all children should be raised as problem solvers."

[Carehn]

The libertarian answer is simple. Ever child shall be given a shock collar when they turn 5. The shock collar will monitor tomfoolery and give a shock to those who engage in such thoughts.

[Carehn]

It all has to do with parenting. The school should be privatized to weed out the worthless employes this way better workers will be on hand to stop such activity's. But also i want you to bring up the subject of ball growing. Most 'bullying' is harmless and helps people grow and shit. So it must be said. The school must take action on educating kids and parents on how to grow some balls.

[sailingaway]

It all has to do with parenting. The school should be privatized to weed out the worthless employes this way better workers will be on hand to stop such activity's. But also i want you to bring up the subject of ball growing. Most 'bullying' is harmless and helps people grow and shit. So it must be said. The school must take action on educating kids and parents on how to grow some balls.

There is bullying, and then there is bullying. But it is like pornography, you have to see it to know it.... :p

The thing is parents and communities should be able to create the policies that suit them best with teachers and schools responsible to the parents.

[Carehn]

There is bullying, and then there is bullying. But it is like pornography, you have to see it to know it.... :p

The thing is parents and communities should be able to create the policies that suit them best with teachers and schools responsible to the parents.
Agreed and they would be able to do that so well if only they would privatize all the schools. So if I was the bully does that make me like a porn star?

[emazur]

In a free market education system, if my child was bullied, I'd demand the school take care of the problem immediately or they won't see another red cent of my tuition money and I'd threaten to raise hell about it to every local newspaper, tv consumer reporter, and news based radio station in the area. I'd threaten to post negative reviews of the school on the internet, and I might just print them out and post them door to door or windshield to windshield throughout the area. In short, I'd put "the fear of god" into the school to get their shit together.

In government education system, you might be permitted to file some report and no teacher will intervene if they witness bullying in fear of not wanting to put their ass on the line if a mistake was made, and you have to pay the fuckers at the school with your tax dollars whether you like it or not. So your kid gets the school bully and YOU get the government bully who threatens to take away your lunch money or else it'll "come get you" and stuff you unto somewhere much worse than a school locker where you're all the more likely to encounter even more bullies, except they're the kind that stabs people, rapes, destroys property, and steals your stuff. Which doesn't make them all that much different from the government bullies, does it?

[bolil]

In a free market education system, if my child was bullied, I'd demand the school take care of the problem immediately or they won't see another red cent of my tuition money and I'd threaten to raise hell about it to every local newspaper, tv consumer reporter, and news based radio station in the area. I'd threaten to post negative reviews of the school on the internet, and I might just print them out and post them door to door or windshield to windshield throughout the area. In short, I'd put "the fear of god" into the school to get their shit together.

In government education system, you might be permitted to file some report and no teacher will intervene if they witness bullying in fear of not wanting to put their ass on the line if a mistake was made, and you have to pay the fuckers at the school with your tax dollars whether you like it or not. So your kid gets the school bully and YOU get the government bully who threatens to take away your lunch money or else it'll "come get you" and stuff you unto somewhere much worse than a school locker where you're all the more likely to encounter even more bullies, except they're the kind that stabs people, rapes, destroys property, and steals your stuff. Which doesn't make them all that much different from the government bullies, does it?

You would humiliate your kid with such course. Better to get the kid some boxing lessons and let him tune up the bully himself. If the kid is pacifist, then the kid is probably wise enough to not let it bother the kid any.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

There is bullying, and then there is bullying. But it is like pornography, you have to see it to know it.... :p

The thing is parents and communities should be able to create the policies that suit them best with teachers and schools responsible to the parents.

Did you ever here the parable about the prostitute and how, after learning how she represented the disadvantaged and how her pimp represented tyranny, she immediately changed her ways because of the humiliating condition of the people?

[Danke]

Parents should teach their children to form militias.

[satchelmcqueen]

this
I think it should be up to the school and the parents - NOT the government to get involved.

[Kodaddy]

The term "bullying" has gotten out of hand. My sister-in-law told me my nephew was being bullied at school. I asked what was the problem and she said kids were calling him "booger eater" (3rd grade). I said I didn't understand, because I've witnessed him eating his boogers. She informed me that if someone says something to you that you don't like, that's bullying. That little booger eater is going to have a tough time...

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Parents should teach their children to form militias.

Reduce. As the U.S. military was an official entity formed to protect the government from the enemy, with the Federal government at the time always dynamic and in a state of fleeing, in contrast, the militia was formed to protect the people from tyranny, with them being fixed in their homes. Basically, the people were left defenseless as two pimps fought to rule over them. Today, we have a choice whether to join the official military of the government. As I tell my sons, we are born into the militia. When we become decommissioned from the military, we revert back into becoming valuable members of the militia. This has very special meaning for me. As husbands, we are official rulers of the ten commandments; whereas, as brothers in the militia, we are unofficial slaves to loving our neighbors as ourselves. With the least troubled neighbor out there being that wretch who has to live on the street, this means we have to take the offensive. This is why we aren't here to party, but to fight against tyranny.

[trey4sports]

none

[NIU Students for Liberty]

As a teacher myself I can say that while there are incompetent faculty members who truly don't give a shit and simply pass the buck, most teachers have their hands tied behind their backs courtesy of the administration who has its hands tied by the government.

Like someone else stated, allow the victim to defend themselves but also weed out the bullies/students who don't give a damn. I teach in an alternative high school (unfortunately it is public) that supposedly allows the teachers to have firm control over disciplinary policies. I currently have 2 students who clearly are going through the motions, both with their participation in class as well as how they treat other students (verbally). I went to the administration after they walked out of my classroom and ditched, then had the nerve to complain that I failed them on their in-class essay that they never started (we're not allowed to give them homework). One of the program directors is on my side but of course the administration wants to give these students another chance, even though they were allowed back into the program after they got kicked out last semester.

Needless to say, the system is a cluster fuck. The kicker is that it's the students' choice to be in the program since it's basically their last chance. Otherwise they can drop out and pursue their GED. Put it simply, dissolve the public education system and privatize it. At times I feel like I'm a glorified babysitter....

[devil21]

I think the easy way to end bullying is for parents of bullied kids to start suing the parents of bullies, particularly when there's violence involved.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

As a teacher myself I can say that while there are incompetent faculty members who truly don't give a shit and simply pass the buck, most teachers have their hands tied behind their backs courtesy of the administration who has its hands tied by the government.

Like someone else stated, allow the victim to defend themselves but also weed out the bullies/students who don't give a damn. I teach in an alternative high school (unfortunately it is public) that supposedly allows the teachers to have firm control over disciplinary policies. I currently have 2 students who clearly are going through the motions, both with their participation in class as well as how they treat other students (verbally). I went to the administration after they walked out of my classroom and ditched, then had the nerve to complain that I failed them on their in-class essay that they never started (we're not allowed to give them homework). One of the program directors is on my side but of course the administration wants to give these students another chance, even though they were allowed back into the program after they got kicked out last semester.

Needless to say, the system is a cluster fuck. The kicker is that it's the students' choice to be in the program since it's basically their last chance. Otherwise they can drop out and pursue their GED. Put it simply, dissolve the public education system and privatize it. At times I feel like I'm a glorified babysitter....

Why raise boys in make believe tellytubbie land when, after they graduate, they are going to have to put up with far worse bullies in the real world? Teachers need to get their noses out of that business. I got picked on throughout school and never had a bone broken or a tooth chipped. I know this might offend some, but, in order for a young man to become a man, he needs to be raised by men. We need to quit mommying the babies so much.

[LibertyEagle]

You would humiliate your kid with such course. Better to get the kid some boxing lessons and let him tune up the bully himself. If the kid is pacifist, then the kid is probably wise enough to not let it bother the kid any.

I agree with this. The kid needs to learn how to defend himself, or he will be a victim his entire life.

[phill4paul]

The term "bullying" has gotten out of hand. My sister-in-law told me my nephew was being bullied at school. I asked what was the problem and she said kids were calling him "booger eater" (3rd grade). I said I didn't understand, because I've witnessed him eating his boogers. She informed me that if someone says something to you that you don't like, that's bullying. That little booger eater is going to have a tough time...

http://www.midniteticket.com/sites/default/files/why-do-they-call-you-booger.jpg

[familydog]

I have meeting at my school about bullying. May anyone help me on this question please!

What should be the proper role of the government on bullying such as kids fighting in school or being picked on?

My idea is that a kid can fight only on self defence (I can only think of the 2nd amendment but it only talks about the rigtht to bear arms for defence), but what about if the kid can't fight and he is still being physically harrased?

Please understand that you exist within a bullying hierarchy. School bullies are a mere subset of greater bullies known as government. The bottom-feeding bullies children encounter will subside once the hierarchy is dismantled. Bullying is an affect of compulsory schools.

If your children are victims to bullying (or even if they are not), please remove them from this prison.

[belian78]

The 'government' has no place in the bullying issue, as others have stated it's up to the teachers/principles and mostly the parents.

I was bullied (yes, full on bullying and getting picked on) everyday when I was a child. I was skinny, pale, and flaming red hair, I was called everything from albino to volcano top (because my face would match my hair once the majority of kids in my grade joined in the fun) Watch out!! Volcano top is about to explode!! For a brief time, my gradeschool years were hell, everyday.

Well one day I decided I had enough and yelled at one of the older kids to stop picking on me. He promptly shoved me so hard that my head smacked against the corner of a brick wall knocking me silly and to the ground. I just snapped, I got up and jumped on the kid and just hit/kicked/spit/bit until the gym teacher pulled me off the kid. I was never picked on again while I went to that school. It taught me a lesson that I hold with me today, the more you put up with the shit the more you will get. And the sooner you stick up for yourself, the sooner the shit stops.

In my mom's day there were bullies too, mainly because that's what they got at home, so naturally that was their learned behavior. Well, in my mom's day families actually taught their children respect for their elders and their peers. So bullies usually would either get a fist for their troubles, or more likely they would get shamed by their classmates for picking on someone smaller/not as smart/whatever reason, and it would soon stop.

The problem is, anymore children more often than not don't give an ounce of respect for anyone. Compound that with how we glorify war and all it's atrocities, what kind of example is that leading for our children? Major things need to change for sure, but I'm damn sure gov isn't the place to go looking for answers. They're the ones killing untold numbers of innocent children around the world, who the hell are they to say what should be done about bullies?

[pcosmar]

I agree with this. The kid needs to learn how to defend himself, or he will be a victim his entire life.

On this we agree completely. I was bullied a lot,, and my folks had the common attitude that fighting was wrong,,ALWAYS.

It took a while, and my older brothers advice,, I learned to fight back. Not well,, but that does not matter.
Bullies get away with it because they can. A solid shot to the nose will end bullying most often. Even if you "lose" the fight,, the fact that you stood up to them will back them off. They are cowards.

Once you start standing up to them they will stop.

[jasonxe]

Can bullying be an imitation of force between children. If so can I tell my child to fight back?

[belian78]

Can bullying be an imitation of force between children. If so can I tell my child to fight back?

The state would say no. I would emphatically tell you yes, make sure your child knows how to defend themselves and encourage them to do so, only as a very last resort however.

[LibertyEagle]

Can bullying be an imitation of force between children. If so can I tell my child to fight back?

He can damn well defend himself.

[osan]

What should be the proper role of the government on bullying such as kids fighting in school or being picked on?

The proper role of "government" is nothing. Leave this to the kids to settle primarily, the parents secondarily, the school tertiarily, the rest to keep their noses out of it.

If my child is assaulted by another student, they have my permission and mandate to defend themselves. If they are "bullied", whatever in hell that is supposed to mean, they hold the primary authority to settle the issue. If they are unable to settle it, they may ask an adult for help. If that fails, they come to me. Nobody else is to interfere with them lest they incur my ire.


My idea is that a kid can fight only on self defence (I can only think of the 2nd amendment but it only talks about the rigtht to bear arms for defence), but what about if the kid can't fight and he is still being physically harrased?

Perhaps the kids need to learn how to fight? I am a strong proponent of martial art training. Here I speak of actual combat training and not strip mall training for martial sports tournaments - though perhaps it is better than nothing. But when the general quality of a child's life is affected chronically, adults need to step in and squelch the problem without equivocation. If the parent of a "bully" will not get their brat under control, then my view is you hurt them in the wallet with a lawyer. If things come to such a pass you should have on your hands a problem of a non-ordinary character.

My first line solution is to train my children not only to fight, but how to think and how to avoid trouble before it finds them. But when someone attempts to place unwelcome hands upon you, it is well within your right to take whatever measures you feel are necessary to neutralize the threat. If you can walk away, do it. Run if you must, but failing the ability to do even that, stand your ground and knock the shit out of anyone touching you without permission. Then you call me and I come to investigate and make sure the school is kept on its rightly short leash.

[Confederate]

As a teacher myself I can say that while there are incompetent faculty members who truly don't give a shit and simply pass the buck, most teachers have their hands tied behind their backs courtesy of the administration who has its hands tied by the government.

Like someone else stated, allow the victim to defend themselves but also weed out the bullies/students who don't give a damn. I teach in an alternative high school (unfortunately it is public) that supposedly allows the teachers to have firm control over disciplinary policies. I currently have 2 students who clearly are going through the motions, both with their participation in class as well as how they treat other students (verbally). I went to the administration after they walked out of my classroom and ditched, then had the nerve to complain that I failed them on their in-class essay that they never started (we're not allowed to give them homework). One of the program directors is on my side but of course the administration wants to give these students another chance, even though they were allowed back into the program after they got kicked out last semester.

Needless to say, the system is a cluster fuck. The kicker is that it's the students' choice to be in the program since it's basically their last chance. Otherwise they can drop out and pursue their GED. Put it simply, dissolve the public education system and privatize it. At times I feel like I'm a glorified babysitter....

Wtf?

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Wtf?

Yup. And I kid you not: teachers must provide the students with pencils and paper. Again, these are 17-year-olds.

[noneedtoaggress]

Taking your kid out of state schooling would be the first step to solving the bullying problem, imo.

It's entirely based on a structure of domination and submission from the foundation to the classroom and that's precisely what children learn by participating in it.

Education and schooling are two very different things.

[heavenlyboy34]

He can damn well defend himself.
This^^ I suggest a self defense class at the minimum so the victim can learn the best ways to fight back and/or get away. Judo's awesome for this, btw. :cool: