Are you too sick to own a gun?

[tod evans]

And the idea is presented to the general populace..

They're coming..:mad:



Anger, violent thoughts: Are you too sick to own a gun?


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/18/16588357-anger-violent-thoughts-are-you-too-sick-to-own-a-gun?lite


By Matthew DeLuca, Staff Writer, NBC News
If there’s one thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on, it’s that mentally ill people should not have access to firearms.
But as lawmakers rush to restrict that access in the wake of recent mass shootings, mental health experts warn of unintended consequences: from gun owners avoiding mental health treatment to therapists feeling compelled to report every patient who expresses a violent thought.
“Many patients express some idea of harm to other people, everything from, ‘I wish I could rip my boss limb from limb,’ to, ‘I have a gun and want to blow that guy away,’” said Paul Applebaum, director of the Division of Law, Ethics, and Psychiatry at Columbia University.

Therapists usually interpret this sort of talk as part of the treatment process, experts say. But under a new law in New York, one of the strongest to be passed to date, therapists may feel compelled to report every instance of violent talk, lest they face legal consequences if something happens. And some say ordinary patients may wind up suffering the most.
“There’s one group of people who are gun owners who may reasonably or unreasonably think, ‘I’m not going anywhere near a mental health person, because if they misinterpret something I say as an indication I’m going to hurt myself or someone else, they’re going to report me and take away my guns,’” Applebaum said.
Several polls conducted since the shooting in Newtown, Conn., have found widespread support for new legislation that would restrict the possession of firearms by the mentally ill, as well as for increased government spending on mental health.
Federal law already bars the sale or transfer of firearms to a person who is known or thought to have been “adjudicated as a mental defective.” In addition, at least 44 states currently have their own laws regulating possession of firearm by mentally ill individuals, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. But not enough states report their mental health data to the federal government, rendering the federal law largely toothless.
'Not taking any chances'
New York’s expanded gun law signed by Cuomo on January 15 goes further than most state laws in that it requires mental health professionals to report any person considered “likely to engage in conduct that would result in serious harm to self or others” to local health officials. Those officials would be authorized to report that person to law enforcement, which could seize the person’s firearms.
Previously, New York judges could compel seriously mentally ill people thought to be dangerous to receive involuntary outpatient treatment.
“I see it very frequently,” Steven Dubovsky, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Buffalo, said of patients expressing violent fantasies. “You see people who struggle with anger or have violent thoughts, and if I thought they were going to act on it right away, I would stop them.”
“Now if you’re mistaken, you’re wrong about this, and you don’t report it, you could face criminal sanctions. I’m not taking any chances at that point,” Dubovsky said. That could encourage therapists to over-report, he said.

Rep. Rob Barber, who was critically wounded alongside Rep. Gabby Giffords, talks about his task force to provide advice on mental health issues to prevent gun-related violence.
There have been cases where better enforcement of laws already on the books might have helped avoid bloodshed, said Richard J. Bonnie, a professor at University of Virginia’s law school. Bonnie headed a state commission on mental health law in the wake of the mass shooting at Virginia Tech.
Shooter Seung-Hui Cho, who killed 32 people and then himself at the university in 2007, should have been adjudicated as mentally defective following a special justice’s order issued two years before the shooting, Bonnie said. Such a designation, properly reported, would have disqualified him from owning a gun under existing federal law.
But that message never got passed on to the feds or Virginia Tech, Bonnie said.
Shoring up the flaws in mental health reporting to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System – something Obama addressed in his proposals – would help prevent future mistakes, Bonnie said. Obama also called for background checks to be required on all firearm purchases – currently only 7 states account for 98 percent of the names prohibited for reasons of mental illness in the NICS database, according to Mayors Against Illegal Guns.
According to DJ Jaffe, executive director of the Mental Illness Policy Org, which advocates on behalf of the seriously mentally ill, all the talk of mental health and gun violence obscures a bigger issue – a nationwide struggle with how to care for the mentally ill.
“Most of the things they’re discussing are totally irrelevant to helping people with serious mental illness,” Jaffe said. “No one wants responsibility for the seriously mentally ill.”

[coastie]

The new DSM-5 classifies EVERY human emotion as a "disorder". How convenient for the government. It will be published in May.

Stay the fuck away from doctors, period. IF you are around them, lie about owning guns. Declare yourself to be gun free.

[tod evans]

This could effectively shut down the psych field...

It's a shame too because there are some folks they actually help.

Oh well..........It's for the kids:o

[Expatriate]

I'm pretty sure those who founded the USA were full of "anger, violent thoughts", especially towards the British. Would they not be allowed guns now?

[ctiger2]

...it’s that mentally ill people should not have access to firearms

Well that rules out every politician then...

[tod evans]

Well that rules out every politician then...

Don't forget cops........

[tod evans]

More double posts.

[acptulsa]

I couldn't help but notice that someone (I think it was George Will) on ABC's This Week this morning did mention that 'mental health' is a pretty vague and elisive thing, and might not mean as much as we wish in the gun control debate. And was such a thought articulated on the allegedly conservative Fox? No, of course not. Perish the thought.

Given the uncertain nature of psychiatry, a psychiatric professional is just about the last person I'd entrust with my Constitutional Rights.

I also find it amusing to hear people carry on about assault rifles in connection with these mass murder/suicides, even to the point of lying about whether the assault rifle in Newtown ever left the trunk of the car. Now, it seems to me that if I wanted to smuggle a rifle into a place, I'd go for some basic 1873 Winchester, not something with a flash supressor, a scope, a thirty-round magazine, and a bunch of other stuff that I don't need and that would make lumpy bulges in my raincoat...

[youngbuck]

Stay the fuck away from doctors, period. IF you are around them, lie about owning guns. Declare yourself to be gun free.

This^

[Danke]

The new DSM-5 classifies EVERY human emotion as a "disorder". How convenient for the government. It will be published in May.

Stay the fuck away from doctors, period. IF you are around them, lie about owning guns. Declare yourself to be gun free.

Oppositional defiant disorder, ODD, develops in childhood and is often directed at parents, authority figures, and other caregivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder

[cheapseats]

The Startling Accuracy of Referring to Politicians as 'Psychopaths'

JUL 31 2012, 8:35 AM ET 62

The characteristics that define clinical psychopathy are many of the same that make effective leaders.

...Psychopathy is a psychological condition based on well-established diagnostic criteria, which include lack of remorse and empathy, a sense of grandiosity, superficial charm, conning and manipulative behavior, and refusal to take responsibility for one's actions, among others. Psychopaths are not all the same; particular aspects may predominate in different people. And, although some psychopaths are violent men (and women) with long criminal histories, not all are. It's important to understand that psychopathic behavior and affect exist on a continuum; there are those who fall into the grey area between "normal" people and true psychopaths.

The question, then, is whether it is reasonable to believe that people with serious abnormalities in the way they interact with the world can be found running for (and winning) office. However unsettling as this may be, the answer seems to be yes. It's possible for psychopaths to be found anywhere -- including city hall or Washington, D.C. Remember, psychopaths are not delusional or psychotic; in fact, two of the hallmarks of psychopathy are a calculating mind and a seemingly easy charm...

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/07/the-startling-accuracy-of-referring-to-politicians-as-psychopaths/260517/

[acptulsa]

Oppositional defiant disorder, ODD, develops in childhood and is often directed at parents, authority figures, and other caregivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder

And there you are. Either you believe the government when it says you don't need a gun, or you have ODD and can be denied a gun.

Such a perfect Catch 22.

[AFPVet]

When I was in the military, they called everything a personality disorder... even though a psychiatrist didn't diagnose it. Anything that strayed from their expectations was a personality disorder... far off from the actual definition. They can just define anything they want as being a mental illness.

The fact is that emotions are normal... it's what we do with those emotions that makes a person crazy or normal. If they're crazy, they will be brought down by 'normal, armed citizens' right quick.

[XTreat]

New York’s expanded gun law signed by Cuomo on January 15 goes further than most state laws in that it requires mental health professionals to report any person considered “likely to engage in conduct that would result in serious harm to self or others” to local health officials. Those officials would be authorized to report that person to law enforcement, which could seize the person’s firearms.

This can only end badly.

[Philhelm]

This is extra troubling for those afflicted with paranoia.

[CaptainAmerica]

Say goodbye to sovereign individual "freedom of speech and thought".


With the killing of undesired members of the population ,eugenics and radical hygiene came into their own.As Weingart(1985) notes ,these were not misused by the Nazis,but their ideas were applied with murderous effectiveness(see also Muller-Hill 1984). Geneticists , anthropologists, judges, and psychiatrists all participated in this process. These professional groups therefore now approach this period in the history of their disciplines with different questions than psychologists.And yet even though psychologists did not place their professional competence in the service of crime and murder, there is a comparable question to be asked: How does one reflect as an expert,on the conditions and aims of one's work?To what extent is one willing to make one's expertise available to increase the effectiveness of a political military apparatus? book source :The Professionalization of Psychology in Nazi Germany
By Ulfried Geuter [pg.2 paragraph 2 of preface]

[FindLiberty]

Are you too sick to own a gun?

Nasal on that, got these pills see... they make me feel better when I remember to take 'em. Sometime I forget and then take two. No problammo.

;-)

[sailingaway]

I read that they are revising the DM standard on personality disorders to include MANY MANY more 'disorders', to the point where if you have a personality, you likely have a disorder....

[Matt Collins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TluCtwNMSBk&feature=youtu.be



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUv9pjxq5QI

[pochy1776]

The new DSM-5 classifies EVERY human emotion as a "disorder". How convenient for the government. It will be published in May.

Stay the fuck away from doctors, period. IF you are around them, lie about owning guns. Declare yourself to be gun free.
Didn;t some people say the DSM4-TR would diagnose everybody?

[pochy1776]

Technically i and 2,000,000 people can't own a gun because of mental illness. DAMNIT ASPERGERS WHY NAOH!

[acptulsa]

Technically i and 2,000,000 people can't own a gun because of mental illness. DAMNIT ASPERGERS WHY NAOH!

You can't be diagnosed if you never go to a 'mental health professional'.

There's a lot to be said for the Popeye Philosophy. Just say, 'I yam what I yam,' and go on with your business. Doesn't get you any sympathy, or any pharmaceuticals. But it has its advantages.

[Rudeman]

Want a gun? You're too sick to own a gun because obviously anyone that would want one or thinks they need one has mental issues. <How long until that becomes reality?

[pochy1776]

You can't be diagnosed if you never go to a 'mental health professional'.

There's a lot to be said for the Popeye Philosophy. Just say, 'I yam what I yam,' and go on with your business. Doesn't get you any sympathy, or any pharmaceuticals. But it has its advantages.

I did get diagnosed and still go to therapy

[tod evans]

I did get diagnosed and still go to therapy

Listing NY in your signature...

Has it occurred to you that it may be wise to move?

[RickyJ]

I'm pretty sure those who founded the USA were full of "anger, violent thoughts", especially towards the British. Would they not be allowed guns now?

They would be classified as nuts and immediately disarmed. Anyone that can't see the government controlled by a certain religion is the enemy now, isn't paying attention.

[tttppp]

And the idea is presented to the general populace..

They're coming..:mad:



Anger, violent thoughts: Are you too sick to own a gun?


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/18/16588357-anger-violent-thoughts-are-you-too-sick-to-own-a-gun?lite


By Matthew DeLuca, Staff Writer, NBC News
If there’s one thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on, it’s that mentally ill people should not have access to firearms.
But as lawmakers rush to restrict that access in the wake of recent mass shootings, mental health experts warn of unintended consequences: from gun owners avoiding mental health treatment to therapists feeling compelled to report every patient who expresses a violent thought.
“Many patients express some idea of harm to other people, everything from, ‘I wish I could rip my boss limb from limb,’ to, ‘I have a gun and want to blow that guy away,’” said Paul Applebaum, director of the Division of Law, Ethics, and Psychiatry at Columbia University.

Therapists usually interpret this sort of talk as part of the treatment process, experts say. But under a new law in New York, one of the strongest to be passed to date, therapists may feel compelled to report every instance of violent talk, lest they face legal consequences if something happens. And some say ordinary patients may wind up suffering the most.
“There’s one group of people who are gun owners who may reasonably or unreasonably think, ‘I’m not going anywhere near a mental health person, because if they misinterpret something I say as an indication I’m going to hurt myself or someone else, they’re going to report me and take away my guns,’” Applebaum said.
Several polls conducted since the shooting in Newtown, Conn., have found widespread support for new legislation that would restrict the possession of firearms by the mentally ill, as well as for increased government spending on mental health.
Federal law already bars the sale or transfer of firearms to a person who is known or thought to have been “adjudicated as a mental defective.” In addition, at least 44 states currently have their own laws regulating possession of firearm by mentally ill individuals, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. But not enough states report their mental health data to the federal government, rendering the federal law largely toothless.
'Not taking any chances'
New York’s expanded gun law signed by Cuomo on January 15 goes further than most state laws in that it requires mental health professionals to report any person considered “likely to engage in conduct that would result in serious harm to self or others” to local health officials. Those officials would be authorized to report that person to law enforcement, which could seize the person’s firearms.
Previously, New York judges could compel seriously mentally ill people thought to be dangerous to receive involuntary outpatient treatment.
“I see it very frequently,” Steven Dubovsky, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Buffalo, said of patients expressing violent fantasies. “You see people who struggle with anger or have violent thoughts, and if I thought they were going to act on it right away, I would stop them.”
“Now if you’re mistaken, you’re wrong about this, and you don’t report it, you could face criminal sanctions. I’m not taking any chances at that point,” Dubovsky said. That could encourage therapists to over-report, he said.

Rep. Rob Barber, who was critically wounded alongside Rep. Gabby Giffords, talks about his task force to provide advice on mental health issues to prevent gun-related violence.
There have been cases where better enforcement of laws already on the books might have helped avoid bloodshed, said Richard J. Bonnie, a professor at University of Virginia’s law school. Bonnie headed a state commission on mental health law in the wake of the mass shooting at Virginia Tech.
Shooter Seung-Hui Cho, who killed 32 people and then himself at the university in 2007, should have been adjudicated as mentally defective following a special justice’s order issued two years before the shooting, Bonnie said. Such a designation, properly reported, would have disqualified him from owning a gun under existing federal law.
But that message never got passed on to the feds or Virginia Tech, Bonnie said.
Shoring up the flaws in mental health reporting to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System – something Obama addressed in his proposals – would help prevent future mistakes, Bonnie said. Obama also called for background checks to be required on all firearm purchases – currently only 7 states account for 98 percent of the names prohibited for reasons of mental illness in the NICS database, according to Mayors Against Illegal Guns.
According to DJ Jaffe, executive director of the Mental Illness Policy Org, which advocates on behalf of the seriously mentally ill, all the talk of mental health and gun violence obscures a bigger issue – a nationwide struggle with how to care for the mentally ill.
“Most of the things they’re discussing are totally irrelevant to helping people with serious mental illness,” Jaffe said. “No one wants responsibility for the seriously mentally ill.”

Everyone is mentally ill according to doctors so you better take aways everyones gun.

[Philhelm]

You can't be diagnosed if you never go to a 'mental health professional'.

You're correct, and that allows for a troubling loophole. The common sense solution would be mandatory psychological examinations.

[loveableteddybear]

I'm pretty sure those who founded the USA were full of "anger, violent thoughts", especially towards the British. Would they not be allowed guns now?
/Thread Winner

The 2nd amendment does not exist for hunting or even self defense. It exists so that a free state can overthrow federal tyranny.

...Didn't work that well during the Civil War.

[pcosmar]

/Thread Winner

The 2nd amendment does not exist for hunting or even self defense. It exists so that a free state can overthrow federal tyranny.

...Didn't work that well during the Civil War.

True,, they were doing it wrong.

A civil war will have few (if any) winners. It may be inevitable. Time will tell.

[tttppp]

You're correct, and that allows for a troubling loophole. The common sense solution would be mandatory psychological examinations.

Then like I mentioned above, nobody can have a gun, because psychiatrists think everyone is crazy.

[FindLiberty]

Should children be allowed to touch a gun? If yes, at what age?

Are those parents ill for saying yes?

Should parents just hide the gun in the house from their children so it will be a big surprise if/when they find it?

Remember this one?
Interesting statistics are noted at towards the end of this 10/22/2012 article:
http://www.examiner.com/article/home-alone-12-year-old-oklahoma-girl-shoots-intruder-with-mom-s-gun

This item/topic was on RPF last year:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?393078-Home-Alone-12-year-old-Shoots-Intruder

[Anti Federalist]

The new DSM-5 classifies EVERY human emotion as a "disorder". How convenient for the government. It will be published in May.

Stay the fuck away from doctors, period. IF you are around them, lie about owning guns. Declare yourself to be gun free.

Until they start DNA testing you for powder residue.

Like they will for tobacco before too much longer.

[Philhelm]

Until they start DNA testing you for powder residue.

Like they will for tobacco before too much longer.

I would be proud if my DNA could pass on powder residue to my offspring. I can't wait until I ask my daughter, "Sophia, what is best in life?"

[Anti Federalist]

You're correct, and that allows for a troubling loophole. The common sense solution would be mandatory psychological examinations.

Already proposed, years ago.

This will be coming down the pike soon.

All tied in to the cloud databases.

Mandatory Psychiatric "Mental Health" Testing

http://www.conservativeusa.net/mentaltesting.htm

[Anti Federalist]

I would be proud if my DNA could pass on powder residue to my offspring. I can't wait until I ask my daughter, "Sophia, what is best in life?"

LoL - I meant hair follicle testing for toxins/drugs.

Everything that you came in contact with, down to PPB, can be detected in hair and nails.

Powder smoke will be detectable, unless you want to shoot dressed like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_M2uQvpZdM_Y/Sf36ijxiaEI/AAAAAAAAAo4/myuHuKfb9JI/s320/Biohazard+Suit.jpg

[Philhelm]

Already proposed, years ago.

This will be coming down the pike soon.

All tied in to the cloud databases.

Mandatory Psychiatric "Mental Health" Testing

http://www.conservativeusa.net/mentaltesting.htm

And if you give a child a hammer...

[Philhelm]

LoL - I meant hair follicle testing for toxins/drugs.

Everything that you came in contact with, down to PPB, can be detected in hair and nails.

Powder smoke will be detectable, unless you want to shoot dressed like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_M2uQvpZdM_Y/Sf36ijxiaEI/AAAAAAAAAo4/myuHuKfb9JI/s320/Biohazard+Suit.jpg

Speak for yourself. God created me out of gun powder. The rest of you evolved from apes.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Mentally Ill people shouldn't be allowed to have firearms

Solution: Classify everyone as mentally ill

[ghengis86]

LoL - I meant hair follicle testing for toxins/drugs.

Everything that you came in contact with, down to PPB, can be detected in hair and nails.

Powder smoke will be detectable, unless you want to shoot dressed like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_M2uQvpZdM_Y/Sf36ijxiaEI/AAAAAAAAAo4/myuHuKfb9JI/s320/Biohazard+Suit.jpg

AF, you're right. But actually wrong at the same time. PPT - part per trillion, not part per thousand - is already here and being refined as we speak.

At this level, anything with which you came into contact will be observable in the near future.

[pochy1776]

Listing NY in your signature...

Has it occurred to you that it may be wise to move?

Why? Nothing bad in NYC, very cultural and lots of good ethnic food around. Plus I don't think i could move to NH. I am still awaiting my Application to Bard's College at Simon's Rock. Maybe in 5 years or so, i could move to NH.

[heavenlyboy34]

Can't overemphasize that psychiatry is BULLSHIT. The Myth of Mental Illness (http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm)

By Thomas S. Szasz (1960)

[Anti Federalist]

AF, you're right. But actually wrong at the same time. PPT - part per trillion, not part per thousand - is already here and being refined as we speak.

At this level, anything with which you came into contact will be observable in the near future.

Unhappily corrected.

God, the future is such fail...

[Anti Federalist]

Mentally Ill people shouldn't be allowed to have firearms

Solution: Classify everyone as mentally ill

They hate us for our freedom.

Take away freedom.

[Anti Federalist]

Speak for yourself. God created me out of gun powder. The rest of you evolved from apes.

I say that's all just wind in sails...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62lN2NQsHPw

[phill4paul]

I say that's all just wind in sails...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62lN2NQsHPw

For DEVO you get...well nothing.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.

[ClydeCoulter]

Unhappily corrected.

God, the future is such fail...

What we could have been, but no...instead we can't even wait for nature to take us out like the dinosaurs, we have to hurry it up and get it over with and cut our own fucking knecks, what a waste. And who knows, maybe if we had done it right, the gods would have allowed us to spread out into space, what a waste.

But who knows, Ron has hope in our children (the young), I hope so.