How real conspiracies are exposed

[BlackTerrel]

By now I assume most people are familiar with the Manti Te’o story.

Short version is this: Manti Te’o is a Notre Dame linebacker, a projected top 10 overall NFL draft prospect, one of the best college football players in the nation and by all accounts a great dude. In October he receives word that his grandmother and girlfriend died within a 24 hour window right before Notre Dame plays Michigan State. A game in which Michigan State is favored. Manti decides to skip the funeral because his girlfriend told him to promise her that he wouldn’t miss a game and instead play in the game. He plays in the game and has a great performance, helping the Irish record the upset of Michigan State. His story is inspiring and carried on various networks and featured prominently on ESPN and all the sports blogs.

Except yesterday we receive news that none of it was true. The girlfriend not only didn’t die, she never existed to begin with. Details of the bizarre story are still coming out, so bizarre we’re still not sure 100% how this all happened, but we do know the girlfriend never existed.

Now take a look at how real investigative journalism works. See the story below which broke this news. See how detailed and exhaustive it is and how deadspin proves every single point without a shadow of a doubt. No one could read this story and claim that deadspin was lying or that they are conspiracy theorists. Rock solid proof and the story is exposed and now all over the media and internet. Look how long and detailed it is and how every fact is poured over with a fine tooth comb.

Also note how it took them 3 months and hundreds of hours of time and research before coming out with this bombshell. They knew they had to be 1000% sure of their claim before going public because IF THEY WERE WRONG IT WOULD BE INCREDIBLY FUCKED UP TO MAKE SUCH A CLAIM ABOUT SOMEONE WHO LOST A LOVED ONE. They would not release it and open themselves up to ridicule before backing everything up and being 100% sure. To do anything else would be incredibly cruel to Manti, his family, and the Notre Dame community and result in deadspin losing all credibility.

http://m.deadspin.com/5976517/manti-teos-dead-girlfriend-the-most-heartbreaking-and-inspirational-story-of-the-college-football-season-is-a-hoax

Contrast that with the Newtown story. The bullets had barely stopped flying and already we saw tons of websites claim it was all a big conspiracy. We have people questioning and harassing people who lost children. What if it really did go down? How is it possible to make all these claims without doing any investigating?

[BlackTerrel]

Contrast investigative journalism with this. Two middle aged white women with dark hair

http://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/crisis-actors1.jpg

[BlackTerrel]

And by the way the "crisis actors" didn't cry enough? Manti Te'o balled his eyes out on the Notre Dame sideline and then gave this interview. So I guess this football player is a much better actor than those hired by the government.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKDus7QjJ_w

[TheGrinch]

Remind me again where there's been investigative journalism by the mainstream media on the matter. All they've done is corroborate lies, inconsistencies and ommisions.

And you wonder why there are theories. Youtube Sandy Hook Exposed for many more investigative questions....

[TheGrinch]

And by the way the "crisis actors" didn't cry enough? Manti Te'o balled his eyes out on the Notre Dame sideline and then gave this interview. So I guess this football player is a much better actor than those hired by the government.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKDus7QjJ_w

Well, we do know he's acting, so ummm, yes.... That doesn't really prove anything in the other case, than yes, raise the possibility they are crappy actors. Makes more sense than parents not crying and joking before going on camera and acting too choked up to speak.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

By now I assume most people are familiar with the Manti Te’o story.

Short version is this: Manti Te’o is a Notre Dame linebacker, a projected top 10 overall NFL draft prospect, one of the best college football players in the nation and by all accounts a great dude. In October he receives word that his grandmother and girlfriend died within a 24 hour window right before Notre Dame plays Michigan State. A game in which Michigan State is favored. Manti decides to skip the funeral because his girlfriend told him to promise her that he wouldn’t miss a game and instead play in the game. He plays in the game and has a great performance, helping the Irish record the upset of Michigan State. His story is inspiring and carried on various networks and featured prominently on ESPN and all the sports blogs.

Except yesterday we receive news that none of it was true. The girlfriend not only didn’t die, she never existed to begin with. Details of the bizarre story are still coming out, so bizarre we’re still not sure 100% how this all happened, but we do know the girlfriend never existed.

Now take a look at how real investigative journalism works. See the story below which broke this news. See how detailed and exhaustive it is and how deadspin proves every single point without a shadow of a doubt. No one could read this story and claim that deadspin was lying or that they are conspiracy theorists. Rock solid proof and the story is exposed and now all over the media and internet. Look how long and detailed it is and how every fact is poured over with a fine tooth comb.

Also note how it took them 3 months and hundreds of hours of time and research before coming out with this bombshell. They knew they had to be 1000% sure of their claim before going public because IF THEY WERE WRONG IT WOULD BE INCREDIBLY FUCKED UP TO MAKE SUCH A CLAIM ABOUT SOMEONE WHO LOST A LOVED ONE. They would not release it and open themselves up to ridicule before backing everything up and being 100% sure. To do anything else would be incredibly cruel to Manti, his family, and the Notre Dame community and result in deadspin losing all credibility.

http://m.deadspin.com/5976517/manti-teos-dead-girlfriend-the-most-heartbreaking-and-inspirational-story-of-the-college-football-season-is-a-hoax

Contrast that with the Newtown story. The bullets had barely stopped flying and already we saw tons of websites claim it was all a big conspiracy. We have people questioning and harassing people who lost children. What if it really did go down? How is it possible to make all these claims without doing any investigating?

When the intelligence agencies commit actions in the best interest of the old Puritan order, there is no way the people will ever be able to investigate them. The best we can do is suppose that tyranny by its very drunkard nature is attempting to violate our Civil Purpose. We can also gain insight from former citizens and intelligence agencies within those far flung places defeated by these paganists in charge of the Federal government. The KGB agents for one. When the Soviet Union had dissolved, the intelligence agencies absorbed their tactics. The same was true of the Nazi SS. This is the evil we are up against. We have to understand this as a war going on between two orders within the United States which are the new order established by our Founders and the old existing Puritan order established prior.

[kathy88]

Contrast investigative journalism with this. Two middle aged white women with dark hair

Well you know we all look alike.

[UWDude]

By now I assume most people are familiar with the Manti Te’o story.

Short version is this: Manti Te’o is a Notre Dame linebacker, a projected top 10 overall NFL draft prospect, one of the best college football players in the nation and by all accounts a great dude. In October he receives word that his grandmother and girlfriend died within a 24 hour window right before Notre Dame plays Michigan State. A game in which Michigan State is favored. Manti decides to skip the funeral because his girlfriend told him to promise her that he wouldn’t miss a game and instead play in the game. He plays in the game and has a great performance, helping the Irish record the upset of Michigan State. His story is inspiring and carried on various networks and featured prominently on ESPN and all the sports blogs.

Except yesterday we receive news that none of it was true. The girlfriend not only didn’t die, she never existed to begin with. Details of the bizarre story are still coming out, so bizarre we’re still not sure 100% how this all happened, but we do know the girlfriend never existed.

Now take a look at how real investigative journalism works. See the story below which broke this news. See how detailed and exhaustive it is and how deadspin proves every single point without a shadow of a doubt. No one could read this story and claim that deadspin was lying or that they are conspiracy theorists. Rock solid proof and the story is exposed and now all over the media and internet. Look how long and detailed it is and how every fact is poured over with a fine tooth comb.

Also note how it took them 3 months and hundreds of hours of time and research before coming out with this bombshell. They knew they had to be 1000% sure of their claim before going public because IF THEY WERE WRONG IT WOULD BE INCREDIBLY FUCKED UP TO MAKE SUCH A CLAIM ABOUT SOMEONE WHO LOST A LOVED ONE. They would not release it and open themselves up to ridicule before backing everything up and being 100% sure. To do anything else would be incredibly cruel to Manti, his family, and the Notre Dame community and result in deadspin losing all credibility.

http://m.deadspin.com/5976517/manti-teos-dead-girlfriend-the-most-heartbreaking-and-inspirational-story-of-the-college-football-season-is-a-hoax

Contrast that with the Newtown story. The bullets had barely stopped flying and already we saw tons of websites claim it was all a big conspiracy. We have people questioning and harassing people who lost children. What if it really did go down? How is it possible to make all these claims without doing any investigating?

What a fail by the MSM.

[TheGrinch]

What a fail by the MSM.

Actually, seriously, making this thread even less sensical is that absolutely no one did any investigative journalism whatsoever, outside of the independent site Deadspin, who's breaking more big stories than the MSM (even if they are as trashy as exposing Brett Favre's little buddy to the world).

[NewRightLibertarian]

Actually, seriously, making this thread even less sensical is that absolutely no one did any investigative journalism whatsoever, outside of the independent site Deadspin, who's breaking more big stories than the MSM (even if they are as trashy as exposing Brett Favre's little buddy to the world).

Alternative news gets the job done once again reporting conspiracies accurately. No surprise here.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Remind me again where there's been investigative journalism by the mainstream media on the matter. All they've done is corroborate lies, inconsistencies and ommisions.

And you wonder why there are theories. Youtube Sandy Hook Exposed for many more investigative questions....

In order to get from a to z, we have to quit writing books. A volume could be written about how irrational the news media is. The best they could do in their defense is talk and look pretty. Meaning we just need to trust that the media is by nature irrational. This is true on countless levels. So, investigative reporting is an oxymoron. Figure the best the news media will ever be is a mother bird throwing up regurgitated nonsense for public little birds to drink up and crap out. This method apparently sells the product. The lower the quality of the product being sold, the worse tasting is the vomited news.

I hate using this analogy, but this is how we should view the news media. It is crap on many many levels. Will we eat it up? In a heartbeat!

[dannno]

Alternative news gets the job done once again reporting conspiracies accurately. No surprise here.


Yep that is really the big lesson here, the msm is completely useless and should never be trusted.

Bt, there are more pictures of that woman at the website including an actress profile so it isn't fair to just post that one pic which is not proof by itself but should raise an eyebrow. If I wasn't on my phone I'd repost the link.

[mad cow]

Let's win one for the Fibber!

[jmdrake]

Hello BlackTerrel. Let me see if I understand you. Do you only care about unimportant conspiracies (such as the girlfriend of some football player I've never heard of because I don't think college football or even pro football is important in the grand scheme of things)? Is that what makes a conspiracy "real"?

Frankly I haven't gotten deep into Sandy Hook or the Aurora shooting beyond the fact that the Aurora shooter was definitely hopped up on drugs and the Sandy Hook shooter may have been as well. But what about the death of Osama Bin Laden? Does that not count as a "real conspiracy" just because it hasn't gotten the MSM rubber stamp of approval? Let's look at the facts:

1) At first the government said they were watching it on live TV. We even have the "picture" to prove that. Then later we were told there all of the helmet cams failed and there was no video feed. So what were they looking at?

2) At first Pakistan released a picture of the dead OBL. Then they said the picture was a fake.

3) At first a congressman said he saw pictures of a dead OBL. Then he said he was "mistaken".

4) At first the Pentagon said they did DNA tests to prove it was really OBL. Now they say they don't have OBL's DNA records.

5) OBL's alleged "burial at sea" which was supposedly done "in accordance with Islamic custom" actually violates Islam.

6) Members of the SEAL team that supposedly killed OBL were killed a couple of weeks later....only we learn it was supposedly a different SEAL team 6.

But hey, if you care more about football players' imaginary girlfriends more power to you.

[pcosmar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I23LOMUl7BA

[Petar]

You guys are missing the point.

BlackTerrel just discovered a new force of nature which dictates that any story which is more complex than some football player lying about his girlfriend is necessarily true.

I propose that we label this newly discovered force of nature the "Black Terrel Hole".

Black Terrel Holes prohibit human beings from lying about anything that has more than one physical dimension to it.

[juleswin]

Man Tai Teo's incident is not even a conspiracy, its just a hoax perpetuated by one attention starved individual. So yea we know humans lie and one more thing, a govt conspiracy would be a lot more sophisticated that the hoax of a little football player. The point is, I do not know what happened in this case in Sandy Hook and you dont know either what you know is what the govt is telling you and that is it.

But I can tell you what will solve this problem and put all the Sandy Hook Hoaxers to shame, show the damn video from the school. Show it tomorrow not next 6 months or year, show it now so we can all see it.

[ican'tvote]

You guys are missing the point.

BlackTerrel just discovered a new force of nature which dictates that any story which is more complex than some football player lying about his girlfriend is necessarily true.

I propose that we label this newly discovered force of nature the "Black Terrel Hole".

Black Terrel Holes prohibit human beings from lying about anything that has more than one physical dimension to it.
That's probably a misrepresentation..

[UWDude]

So.. what happened to Occam's razor on this one?

Surely it could have been applied to this situation to see that it was all a fraud.

[Anti Federalist]

+rep

We're to believe that people will lie and cover up football shenanigans, (not saying that pro sports does NOT have a long and sordid past of corruption, game fixing and yes, conspiracies) but not do the same when millions of lives and trillions of dollars and the fate of nations are in the balance?


Hello BlackTerrel. Let me see if I understand you. Do you only care about unimportant conspiracies (such as the girlfriend of some football player I've never heard of because I don't think college football or even pro football is important in the grand scheme of things)? Is that what makes a conspiracy "real"?

Frankly I haven't gotten deep into Sandy Hook or the Aurora shooting beyond the fact that the Aurora shooter was definitely hopped up on drugs and the Sandy Hook shooter may have been as well. But what about the death of Osama Bin Laden? Does that not count as a "real conspiracy" just because it hasn't gotten the MSM rubber stamp of approval? Let's look at the facts:

1) At first the government said they were watching it on live TV. We even have the "picture" to prove that. Then later we were told there all of the helmet cams failed and there was no video feed. So what were they looking at?

2) At first Pakistan released a picture of the dead OBL. Then they said the picture was a fake.

3) At first a congressman said he saw pictures of a dead OBL. Then he said he was "mistaken".

4) At first the Pentagon said they did DNA tests to prove it was really OBL. Now they say they don't have OBL's DNA records.

5) OBL's alleged "burial at sea" which was supposedly done "in accordance with Islamic custom" actually violates Islam.

6) Members of the SEAL team that supposedly killed OBL were killed a couple of weeks later....only we learn it was supposedly a different SEAL team 6.

But hey, if you care more about football players' imaginary girlfriends more power to you.

[Anti Federalist]

You guys are missing the point.

BlackTerrel just discovered a new force of nature which dictates that any story which is more complex than some football player lying about his girlfriend is necessarily true.

I propose that we label this newly discovered force of nature the "Black Terrel Hole".

Black Terrel Holes prohibit human beings from lying about anything that has more than one physical dimension to it.

This made me laugh for five minutes.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Hello BlackTerrel. Let me see if I understand you. Do you only care about unimportant conspiracies (such as the girlfriend of some football player I've never heard of because I don't think college football or even pro football is important in the grand scheme of things)? Is that what makes a conspiracy "real"?

Frankly I haven't gotten deep into Sandy Hook or the Aurora shooting beyond the fact that the Aurora shooter was definitely hopped up on drugs and the Sandy Hook shooter may have been as well. But what about the death of Osama Bin Laden? Does that not count as a "real conspiracy" just because it hasn't gotten the MSM rubber stamp of approval? Let's look at the facts:

1) At first the government said they were watching it on live TV. We even have the "picture" to prove that. Then later we were told there all of the helmet cams failed and there was no video feed. So what were they looking at?

2) At first Pakistan released a picture of the dead OBL. Then they said the picture was a fake.

3) At first a congressman said he saw pictures of a dead OBL. Then he said he was "mistaken".

4) At first the Pentagon said they did DNA tests to prove it was really OBL. Now they say they don't have OBL's DNA records.

5) OBL's alleged "burial at sea" which was supposedly done "in accordance with Islamic custom" actually violates Islam.

6) Members of the SEAL team that supposedly killed OBL were killed a couple of weeks later....only we learn it was supposedly a different SEAL team 6.

But hey, if you care more about football players' imaginary girlfriends more power to you.

Never confront irrationality with a rational response. In other words, this is a good response gone for naught. Instead, do what I do. In a world of lies, the only way to unravel the mysteries of the colorful metaphors and fancy superfluous similes of the media is by way of deep emotional interpretation.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

You guys are missing the point.

BlackTerrel just discovered a new force of nature which dictates that any story which is more complex than some football player lying about his girlfriend is necessarily true.

I propose that we label this newly discovered force of nature the "Black Terrel Hole".



Black Terrel Holes prohibit human beings from lying about anything that has more than one physical dimension to it.


There is a subtle difference between one who is a baffling idiot and one who has been baffled into an idiot by the media. Show some respect. In the end, as the world educates us by having our superiors teach us, in clear contrast, God transforms us by having our inferiors teach us.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

So.. what happened to Occam's razor on this one?

Surely it could have been applied to this situation to see that it was all a fraud.

In referring to Occam's razor, how does this relate to the linguistics pertaining to the analysis of the conclusion?

[dannno]

Hello BlackTerrel. Let me see if I understand you. Do you only care about unimportant conspiracies (such as the girlfriend of some football player I've never heard of because I don't think college football or even pro football is important in the grand scheme of things)? Is that what makes a conspiracy "real"?

Frankly I haven't gotten deep into Sandy Hook or the Aurora shooting beyond the fact that the Aurora shooter was definitely hopped up on drugs and the Sandy Hook shooter may have been as well. But what about the death of Osama Bin Laden? Does that not count as a "real conspiracy" just because it hasn't gotten the MSM rubber stamp of approval? Let's look at the facts:

1) At first the government said they were watching it on live TV. We even have the "picture" to prove that. Then later we were told there all of the helmet cams failed and there was no video feed. So what were they looking at?

2) At first Pakistan released a picture of the dead OBL. Then they said the picture was a fake.

3) At first a congressman said he saw pictures of a dead OBL. Then he said he was "mistaken".

4) At first the Pentagon said they did DNA tests to prove it was really OBL. Now they say they don't have OBL's DNA records.

5) OBL's alleged "burial at sea" which was supposedly done "in accordance with Islamic custom" actually violates Islam.

6) Members of the SEAL team that supposedly killed OBL were killed a couple of weeks later....only we learn it was supposedly a different SEAL team 6.

But hey, if you care more about football players' imaginary girlfriends more power to you.


Never confront irrationality with a rational response. In other words, this is a good response gone for naught. Instead, do what I do. In a world of lies, the only way to unravel the mysteries of the colorful metaphors and fancy superfluous similes of the media is by way of deep emotional interpretation.


I remember one of jmdrake's favorite 9/11 factoids used to be how the FBI admitted that former Chief of the Pakistani Inter-services Intelligence helped wire $100,000 to Muhammad Attah, and then the 9/11 Commission essentially said that whoever funded the 19 hijackers was immaterial.

I mean, fuck, that's like a prosecutor saying that whoever funded the hitman isn't worth investigating.

[ClydeCoulter]

Never confront irrationality with a rational response. In other words, this is a good response gone for naught. Instead, do what I do. In a world of lies, the only way to unravel the mysteries of the colorful metaphors and fancy superfluous similes of the media is by way of deep emotional interpretation.

I remember one of jmdrake's favorite 9/11 factoids used to be how the FBI admitted that former Chief of the Pakistani Inter-services Intelligence helped wire $100,000 to Muhammad Attah, and then the 9/11 Commission essentially said that whoever funded the 19 hijackers was immaterial.

I mean, fuck, that's like a prosecutor saying that whoever funded the hitman isn't worth investigating.

You can nest QUOTE's

edit: Not meaning to correct you, only give you a way to show the timeline of events

[BlackTerrel]

Actually, seriously, making this thread even less sensical is that absolutely no one did any investigative journalism whatsoever, outside of the independent site Deadspin, who's breaking more big stories than the MSM (even if they are as trashy as exposing Brett Favre's little buddy to the world).

Deadspin isn't that independent they're owned by a pretty sizable company. And yes most in the MSM didn't care to dig deep to see if a top ten football player made up an imaginary girlfriend. But once it was exposed it was exposed so blatantly that no one could deny it and it was covered everywhere.


Alternative news gets the job done once again reporting conspiracies accurately. No surprise here.

But how come it took deadspin 3 months and Alex Jones 3 hours?

[BlackTerrel]

Man Tai Teo's incident is not even a conspiracy, its just a hoax perpetuated by one attention starved individual. So yea we know humans lie and one more thing, a govt conspiracy would be a lot more sophisticated that the hoax of a little football player. The point is, I do not know what happened in this case in Sandy Hook and you dont know either what you know is what the govt is telling you and that is it.

If it will be more complex and sophisticated it will take more than three months to unravel. Which is how long it took to be 100% sure that this was a hoax. How do you all know it is a hoax right away?


But I can tell you what will solve this problem and put all the Sandy Hook Hoaxers to shame, show the damn video from the school. Show it tomorrow not next 6 months or year, show it now so we can all see it.

I am sure that will put the conspiracies to rest just like Obama's birth certificate proved he was born in Hawaii and not Muslim. Oh wait - the same people still believe that.

[Anti Federalist]

How do you all know it is a hoax right away?

Look, it's really not that difficult.

See, I don't know it's hoax, I don't know if it's a "conspiracy" or what it might be, whatever "it" happens to be.

But my default position, my first take on anything that comes out of the government's pie hole, or their paid official organs, is to immediately disbelieve it, question it and assume that they are lying.

It's much easier that way, it hews closer to the truth in almost all cases where there is any question about what "it" was or how "it" happened.

[ClydeCoulter]

If it will be more complex and sophisticated it will take more than three months to unravel. Which is how long it took to be 100% sure that this was a hoax. How do you all know it is a hoax right away?



I am sure that will put the conspiracies to rest just like Obama's birth certificate proved he was born in Hawaii and not Muslim. Oh wait - the same people still believe that.

They were pretty sure it was a hoax right away, or otherwise they would not have spent that much time investigating. It took 3 months to gather enough evidence to convince everyone else.

And Obama's birth certificate has a lot of problems, unnecessary layers, etc...it's not so straight forward. Even that could have been done on purpose, 'cause it doesn't make sense.

[idiom]

Hello BlackTerrel. Let me see if I understand you. Do you only care about unimportant conspiracies (such as the girlfriend of some football player I've never heard of because I don't think college football or even pro football is important in the grand scheme of things)? Is that what makes a conspiracy "real"?

Frankly I haven't gotten deep into Sandy Hook or the Aurora shooting beyond the fact that the Aurora shooter was definitely hopped up on drugs and the Sandy Hook shooter may have been as well. But what about the death of Osama Bin Laden? Does that not count as a "real conspiracy" just because it hasn't gotten the MSM rubber stamp of approval? Let's look at the facts:

1) At first the government said they were watching it on live TV. We even have the "picture" to prove that. Then later we were told there all of the helmet cams failed and there was no video feed. So what were they looking at?

2) At first Pakistan released a picture of the dead OBL. Then they said the picture was a fake.

3) At first a congressman said he saw pictures of a dead OBL. Then he said he was "mistaken".

4) At first the Pentagon said they did DNA tests to prove it was really OBL. Now they say they don't have OBL's DNA records.

5) OBL's alleged "burial at sea" which was supposedly done "in accordance with Islamic custom" actually violates Islam.

6) Members of the SEAL team that supposedly killed OBL were killed a couple of weeks later....only we learn it was supposedly a different SEAL team 6.

But hey, if you care more about football players' imaginary girlfriends more power to you.

The above are questions, not answers. You need speculation free answers, preferably with documentation or witnesses.

Otherwise you end up in the group that sees blurry footage of the strike on the Pentagon and decides it was definitely a SCUD missile even though Scuds are ballistic and not surface skimming then claim its declassified proof.

[idiom]

You can nest QUOTE's

edit: Not meaning to correct you, only give you a way to show the timeline of events

Is there an easy way to do this? The forum stopped nesting quotes automatically and I never found out how to turn it back on.

[ClydeCoulter]

The above are questions, not answers. You need speculation free answers, preferably with documentation or witnesses.

Otherwise you end up in the group that sees blurry footage of the strike on the Pentagon and decides it was definitely a SCUD missile even though Scuds are ballistic and not surface skimming then claim its declassified proof.

Yea, he needs a team with access to "eyes only", then he can get to the bottom of it. Until then, questions that beg the question are all we can do. There are things that you know, and there are things that cannot be proven, but can be demonstrated.

[ClydeCoulter]

Is there an easy way to do this? The forum stopped nesting quotes automatically and I never found out how to turn it back on.

I have to open more than one browser to the forums, edit with quote, copy, paste to the other, then cancel the one I copied from. Yea, would be nice to have a "reply with quoted quotes".

But the forums support the syntax for nested quotes.

[idiom]

I remember one of jmdrake's favorite 9/11 factoids used to be how the FBI admitted that former Chief of the Pakistani Inter-services Intelligence helped wire $100,000 to Muhammad Attah, and then the 9/11 Commission essentially said that whoever funded the 19 hijackers was immaterial.

I mean, fuck, that's like a prosecutor saying that whoever funded the hitman isn't worth investigating.

Not wanting do get difficult answers is not the same as proof of a conspiracy. The US has a tonne of two faced relationships that require actively maintaining blindness to tolerate. Most of these are known and well understood. The MSM will never call them out in an interview, because they will never get an interview again. The establishment ignores them because its the only way to get their job done. Maybe its a job they shouldn't be doing, but America votes consistently to maintain a two-faced foreign policy because it ensure cheap oil and that Americans don't have to work too hard.

Maybe before the investigation gets to the root cause, its gets as far as Michael Moore got, which was Saudi backing. Michael Moore got completely ignored because America *must not* be enemies with Saudi Arabia.

Denial is not the same as a cover-up although it leaves a trail of mistakes and hypocrisy and retracted statements which looks pretty similar.

[ClydeCoulter]

Which is worse, committing treason and denying it or covering it up?

[Anti Federalist]

Manti Te'o balled his eyes out...

Oh, and spelling matters.

"Balled his eyes out" is some kind of masturbatory skull fucking I've never heard of.

"Bawled his eyes out" is what I think you meant.

The more you know. ;)

[Anti Federalist]

///

[idiom]

Yea, he needs a team with access to "eyes only", then he can get to the bottom of it. Until then, questions that beg the question are all we can do. There are things that you know, and there are things that cannot be proven, but can be demonstrated.

Investigative journalism is the process of getting that information. Building and developing 'sources', or hacking, or breaking and entering or 'finding' material. Its not easy and almost no one does it any more. A serious investigation would be hella risky. Going to jail would be not-so-bad result.

[UWDude]

In referring to Occam's razor, how does this relate to the linguistics pertaining to the analysis of the conclusion?

if someone had accused this of being a hoax, Occam's Razor would have clearly come down on the side of not a hoax.

That is why Occam's Razor does not apply to the actions of people. They are wily, deceptive, and unpredictable.

[Dystopian]

Obama just signed an unprecedented series of executive orders to disarm you - BUT WAIT LOOK OVER HER YOU PATHETIC PEONS AT THIS IDIOTIC STORY ABOUT SOME FOOTBALL PLAYER AND HIS IMAGINARY GIRLFRIEND

[idiom]

if someone had accused this of being a hoax, Occam's Razor would have clearly come down on the side of not a hoax.

That is why Occam's Razor does not apply to the actions of people. They are wily, deceptive, and unpredictable.

Occam was a monk. Occams razor applies to the actions of God on the basis that ceteris paribus God would pick the simpler option.

It is directly opposed to Murphys Laws which are based on the theory that God likes to mess around for the lolz.

[idiom]

Obama just signed an unprecedented series of executive orders to disarm you - BUT WAIT LOOK OVER HER YOU PATHETIC PEONS AT THIS IDIOTIC STORY ABOUT SOME FOOTBALL PLAYER AND HIS IMAGINARY GIRLFRIEND

You are saying that the pathetic story is in fact *more* disarming than the EO to disarm?

[FindLiberty]

Anti Federalist "Balled his eyes out" ...The more you know.
LOL

OK, maybe it was this Mellon Baller then?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/Kasumika/Emma/Emma040.jpg

[FindLiberty]

Obama just signed an unprecedented series of executive orders to disarm you - BUT WAIT LOOK OVER HER YOU PATHETIC PEONS AT THIS IDIOTIC STORY ABOUT SOME FOOTBALL PLAYER AND HIS IMAGINARY GIRLFRIEND

THIS!

[BlackTerrel]

They were pretty sure it was a hoax right away, or otherwise they would not have spent that much time investigating. It took 3 months to gather enough evidence to convince everyone else.

They had a hypothesis and then they investigated and they waited until all the evidence was airtight and indisputable before coming forward. That way everyone followed their lead and they left no doubt.

They also made sure not to be huge assholes in the 1% chance that they were wrong and they accused a guy whose girlfriend just died of lying.

What if these people really lost loved ones and they are now being harassed? Kind of a terrible thing - among the lowest a human being can do to another.

[jmdrake]

The above are questions, not answers. You need speculation free answers, preferably with documentation or witnesses.

Otherwise you end up in the group that sees blurry footage of the strike on the Pentagon and decides it was definitely a SCUD missile even though Scuds are ballistic and not surface skimming then claim its declassified proof.

No. They are answers. A question would be "Does the Pentagon have proof of Osama Bin Laden's death". The answer clearly is "no". Now the answer may beg the question "Well why the hell did they lie about it, and why is the MSM treating bullshit fiction like 'Zero Dark Thirty' as if it was based on reality" but that's something altogether different. But hey, go ahead and smugly deny facts that don't fit truth that you want to face up to at this moment. We all go through this phase in our lives at some time or another. Eventually we forget about the "facts" for truths we don't want to face, or we face up to the truth.

[BlackTerrel]

No they're really just inconsistencies in stories which happens with everything. Kind of like when Miley Cyrus was reported dead - but she isn't. And 100 others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_premature_obituaries

You can't just pick and choose what you want to believe.

If anything an actual hoax would have far less inconsistencies since everyone would be rehearsing the official story from the beginning.

[UWDude]

It is directly opposed to Murphys Laws which are based on the theory that God likes to mess around for the lolz.

And as America begins it's steady decline, as infrastructure crumbles, and the economy keeps taking big hits and closures...
...people on forums will start citing Murphy's law as the reason, as opposed to all the corruption and government ineptitude.

[BlackTerrel]

Why can't Alex Jones do what deadspin did? Research it. Dig deep. Find the actors involved. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one could read that deadspin article and still believe the original story. Why can't the infowars crew do the same?

[jmdrake]

Question: What proof does the Pentagon have and/or is willing to release of Osama Bin Laden's death?

Answer: None.

http://m.startribune.com/?id=142811145

Article by: RICHARD LARDNER , Associated Press

Updated: March 15, 2012 - 3:06 PM

WASHINGTON - The hunt for Osama bin Laden took nearly a decade. It could take even longer to uncover U.S. government emails, planning reports, photographs and more that would shed light on how an elite team of Navy SEALs killed the world's most wanted terrorist.

Ten months after that electrifying covert mission, an administration that has pledged to be the most transparent in American history is refusing to release documents about it under the Freedom of Information Act. The records could provide insights into how bin Laden died, how the U.S. verified his identity and how it decided to bury him at sea, as well as photographs taken during and after the May 2011 raid on his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

Government officials have openly discussed details of the mission in speeches, interviews and television appearances, but the administration won't disclose records that would confirm their narrative of that fateful night. The Obama administration has not said even where in Washington's bureaucracy all the documents might be stored.

Requests for bin Laden materials were among the most significant of any filed last year under the open records law, which compels the government to turn over copies of federal records for free or at little cost. Anyone who seeks information under the law is generally supposed to get it unless disclosure would hurt national security, violate personal privacy or expose business secrets or confidential decision-making. The law has been the focus of extra attention since Sunday, the start of Sunshine Week, when news organizations promote open government and freedom of information.

Citing the law, The Associated Press asked for files about the raid in more than 20 separate requests, mostly submitted the day after bin Laden's death. The Pentagon told the AP this month it could not locate any photographs or video taken during the raid or showing bin Laden's body. It also said it could not find any images of bin Laden's body on the Navy aircraft carrier where the al-Qaida leader's body was taken.

The Pentagon said it could not find any death certificate, autopsy report or results of DNA identification tests for bin Laden, or any pre-raid materials discussing how the government planned to dispose of bin Laden's body if he were killed. It said it searched files at the Pentagon, U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., and the Navy command in San Diego that controls the USS Carl Vinson, the aircraft carrier used in the mission.

The Defense Department told the AP in late February it could not find any emails about the bin Laden mission or his "Geronimo" code name that were sent or received in the year before the raid by William McRaven, the three-star admiral at the Joint Special Operations Command who organized and oversaw the mission. It also could not find any emails from other senior officers who would have been involved in the mission's planning. It found only three such emails written by or sent to then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates, and these consisted of 12 pages sent to Gates summarizing news reports after the raid.

Under the FOIA, even if a document contains secrets about national security, the government can censor those passages but must release anything else in the document that is "reasonably segregable."

The information blackout means that the only public accounts of the mission come from U.S. officials who have described details of that night. In the hours and days after bin Laden's death, the White House provided conflicting versions of events, falsely saying that bin Laden was armed and even firing at the SEALs, misidentifying which of bin Laden's sons was killed, and incorrectly saying bin Laden's wife died in the shootout. President Barack Obama's press secretary attributed the errors to the "fog of combat."

Since then, no authoritative or contemporaneous records have been made available. For the Obama administration, the book on bin Laden appears to be closed.

The Pentagon is refusing even to confirm or deny the existence of helicopter maintenance logs and reports about the performance of military gear used in the raid. One of the stealth helicopters that carried the SEALs to Abbottabad crashed during the mission and its wreckage was left behind. People who lived near bin Laden's compound took photos of the disabled chopper as it straddled one of the high walls surrounding the building. The photos showed a unique tail rotor that aviation experts said was designed to avoid radar detection.

On the AP's request for the helicopter records and equipment reports, the Defense Department invoked what is known as a "Glomar response." The reference dates to the 1970s when the CIA refused to confirm or deny the existence of the Glomar Explorer, a ship the agency used in the attempted salvage of a sunken Soviet submarine.

The AP is appealing the Defense Department's decision. The CIA, which ran the bin Laden raid and has special legal authority to keep information from ever being made public, still has not responded to AP's request for records about the mission.

The CIA has photographs of video recordings of bin Laden taken during the operation. In the days after the raid, select U.S. lawmakers were invited to visit a secure room at CIA headquarters to view more than a dozen of the images, including pictures of bin Laden's body. They were not allowed to take copies of the photos back to Capitol Hill.

Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., a senior member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he viewed one photo that showed brain matter coming out of bin Laden's eye socket. Inhofe said others were taken as the body was being prepared for burial at sea and were less jarring. He said Thursday that he favors making at least a few of the less graphic photos public to dispel any doubts that bin Laden is dead.

"There are probably still people out there who don't think he was killed," Inhofe said.

Federal courts consistently have upheld the government's use of the Glomar response, which is different from refusing to disclose materials. Citing Glomar often happens in national security cases or is used to protect an individual's privacy. It's a tough legal claim to beat in court.

The former director of the Justice Department's Office of Information and Privacy, Dan Metcalfe, said the Pentagon overplayed its position. Citing Glomar in AP's case means the fact that the military performs maintenance on helicopters or that it prepares reports about weapons performance is itself classified, he said. The Pentagon's claim is so broad that it "collapses of its own weight," Metcalfe said.

Judicial Watch, a conservative watchdog group, has sued the administration in federal court to force the release of photos and video of bin Laden. The AP has not sued to force the government to turn over the broader range of materials it has requested.

In the Judicial Watch lawsuit, federal officials acknowledged that the CIA has more than 50 photographs and video recordings of bin Laden's body taken after the raid and during his burial at sea. The director of the CIA's National Clandestine Service, John Bennett, said in a court declaration last year that many of the photographs and video recordings are "quite graphic, as they depict the fatal bullet wound to (bin Laden) and other similarly gruesome images of his corpse."

Judicial Watch has disputed the Obama administration's argument that American personnel and secrets will be at risk if the images are released. It called the concern over violence against Americans stationed overseas "hypothetical speculation" and said it is hard to understand how a photo of bin Laden being buried at sea would expose sensitive equipment or personnel.

The U.S. Special Operations Command, which oversees the Navy SEALs and other commando units, keeps tight rein on information about their equipment, training and missions. In August 2007, it denied a request by the AP for an internal report on the Battle of Mogadishu, a military operation in Somalia in October 1993 that cost 18 American troops their lives.

The command told AP that the report was still classified, even though the battle, better known as "Black Hawk Down," was the subject of books, a movie and countless military studies. Under AP's appeal, the command eventually released a copy with all but nine of the 73 pages completely blacked out. Most of the information remains secret, the command said, to protect military plans, weapon systems and the privacy of individuals involved.

In other cases, the government has revealed more. Just four months after Operation Eagle Claw, the failed attempt in 1980 to rescue 53 U.S. hostages in Iran, the Pentagon released an unclassified version of an investigation about what went wrong. The forward to the 87-page report noted the importance of providing as much detail as possible to the American public.

More recently, the National Security Archive, a private research institute at George Washington University, waited three years for the government to hand over records describing the military's initial plans for invading Iraq. A series of slides, prepared under the codename Polo Step, showed that war planners believed in August 2002 that the U.S. would have only 5,000 troops left in Iraq by December 2006.

[BlackTerrel]

Oh, and spelling matters.

"Balled his eyes out" is some kind of masturbatory skull fucking I've never heard of.

"Bawled his eyes out" is what I think you meant.

The more you know. ;)

Learned something new :)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baller

[UWDude]

Why can't Alex Jones do what deadspin did? Research it. Dig deep. Find the actors involved. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one could read that deadspin article and still believe the original story. Why can't the infowars crew do the same?

probably because Alex Jones and his crew had no idea about a story in college football. Maybe if it were the NFL, they may have raised some eyebrows. But deadspin is more a tabloid/celebrity gossip joint.

[jmdrake]

Why can't Alex Jones do what deadspin did? Research it. Dig deep. Find the actors involved. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one could read that deadspin article and still believe the original story. Why can't the infowars crew do the same?

:rolleyes: It's got nothing to do with Alex Jones or Infowars and everything to do with the fact that it's easier for you to accept a non conspiracy (one man lying about a non existent girlfriend is not a conspiracy because a conspiracy requires two or more people) than it is for you to admit that something nefarious may be afoot in the U.S. government. Everything can be "explained away" by a mind not willing to deal with what they're faced with.

[jmdrake]

Why can't Alex Jones do what deadspin did? Research it. Dig deep. Find the actors involved. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one could read that deadspin article and still believe the original story. Why can't the infowars crew do the same?

:rolleyes: It's got nothing to do with Alex Jones or Infowars and everything to do with the fact that it's easier for you to accept a non conspiracy (one man lying about a non existent girlfriend is not a conspiracy because a conspiracy requires two or more people) than it is for you to admit that something nefarious may be afoot in the U.S. government. Everything can be "explained away" by a mind not willing to deal with what they're faced with.

[ican'tvote]

one man lying about a non existent girlfriend is not a conspiracy because a conspiracy requires two or more people
Weren't his parents involved as well?

[BlackTerrel]

probably because Alex Jones and his crew had no idea about a story in college football. Maybe if it were the NFL, they may have raised some eyebrows. But deadspin is more a tabloid/celebrity gossip joint.

I didn't mean this story. I mean why can't they do it with newtown? Spend the time and resources to do what deadspin did to Manti and expose the newtown story for all to see. You do that and no one can question you. Just like no one is questioning the deadspin story.

But that kind of digging takes months and time and resources - you can't just pop a youtube video up two hours later and claim that people didn't cry enough.


:rolleyes: It's got nothing to do with Alex Jones or Infowars and everything to do with the fact that it's easier for you to accept a non conspiracy (one man lying about a non existent girlfriend is not a conspiracy because a conspiracy requires two or more people)

More than two people are involved in the Manti story.


than it is for you to admit that something nefarious may be afoot in the U.S. government. Everything can be "explained away" by a mind not willing to deal with what they're faced with.

A lot of things are afoot in the US government. But I'd want to see more than people not crying enough before I accuse them of lying and being actors when it is wholly possible those people just lost their kids. When people just lost their kids lives I'd like to be 100% sure before I open them up to harassment.

[jmdrake]

Not wanting do get difficult answers is not the same as proof of a conspiracy. The US has a tonne of two faced relationships that require actively maintaining blindness to tolerate. Most of these are known and well understood. The MSM will never call them out in an interview, because they will never get an interview again. The establishment ignores them because its the only way to get their job done. Maybe its a job they shouldn't be doing, but America votes consistently to maintain a two-faced foreign policy because it ensure cheap oil and that Americans don't have to work too hard.

Maybe before the investigation gets to the root cause, its gets as far as Michael Moore got, which was Saudi backing. Michael Moore got completely ignored because America *must not* be enemies with Saudi Arabia.

Denial is not the same as a cover-up although it leaves a trail of mistakes and hypocrisy and retracted statements which looks pretty similar.

:rolleyes: http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/29288433.jpg

If you "deny" looking into the money man of a crime, that is by fucking definition a cover up. It matters not why the "denial" is done.

[BlackTerrel]

Weren't his parents involved as well?

The Tuiasosopo family as well, as well as a young female who is still not identified.

Point is it took respected journalists and investigators three months to blow this thing open with enough information and facts that no one could dispute it.

It took the Jones crew a couple hours because people didn't cry enough.

What if people suffered the worse experience any parent could ever have and they are then harassed and called names and Alex Jones is wrong? What then?

[juleswin]

More than two people are involved in the Manti story.

.

Show me the proof that 2 or more people were involved cos as far as I am concerned, the only thing we know for sure is that there is no girl friend. Everything else is CT style conjecture.

[jmdrake]

I didn't mean this story. I mean why can't they do it with newtown? Spend the time and resources to do what deadspin did to Manti and expose the newtown story for all to see. You do that and no one can question you. Just like no one is questioning the deadspin story.

But that kind of digging takes months and time and resources - you can't just pop a youtube video up two hours later and claim that people didn't cry enough.


Specifically which Alex Jones "Newtown" story are you referring to? Link please. I have seen stories from other sources posted on Infowars pointing out facts like there was a drill going on at a nearby school around the same time.

http://www.infowars.com/sandy-hook-shooting-active-shooter-drill-confirmed-by-law-enforcement-raises-suspicion-of-false-flag-operation/

I do know near where I live there was some years ago such a mock drill where the students weren't told what was going on and were literally scared so bad they wet their pants. Could such a drill be a cover for something else? Who knows?



More than two people are involved in the Manti story.


Well you're the expert on conspiracies that don't matter.



A lot of things are afoot in the US government. But I'd want to see more than people not crying enough before I accuse them of lying and being actors when it is wholly possible those people just lost their kids. When people just lost their kids lives I'd like to be 100% sure before I open them up to harassment.

Again, link to the specific Alex Jones story. And again, what specific U.S. government conspiracy have you been willing to accept as at least plausible? And I don't mean something that everyone here accepts like the fed.

[jmdrake]

Show me the proof that 2 or more people were involved cos as far as I am concerned, the only thing we know for sure is that there is no girl friend. Everything else is CT style conjecture.

Good point. BlackTerrel where's your proof of conspiracy? Who are the other people involved? Name names and show your proof.

[juleswin]

The Tuiasosopo family as well, as well as a young female who is still not identified.

Point is it took respected journalists and investigators three months to blow this thing open with enough information and facts that no one could dispute it.

It took the Jones crew a couple hours because people didn't cry enough.

What if people suffered the worse experience any parent could ever have and they are then harassed and called names and Alex Jones is wrong? What then?

Again, all the state needs to do to squash the CT is for them to release the video tapes. But just like the birth certificate, the more time that is wasted the less likely the skeptics will believe it. One more thing with the birth certificate, Obama knew exactly what the birthers (one CT group am not part of) were asking for but he "withheld" this and continued showing the short form. He fueled the birther conspiracy for political gain and sure did he gain from it

[Danke]

Again, all the state needs to do to squash the CT is for them to release the video tapes. But just like the birth certificate, the more time that is wasted the less likely the skeptics will believe it. One more thing with the birth certificate, Obama knew exactly what the birthers (one CT group am not part of) were asking for but he "withheld" this and continued showing the short form. He fueled the birther conspiracy for political gain and sure did he gain from it

I'd still like to see his college transcripts.

[jmdrake]

The Tuiasosopo family as well, as well as a young female who is still not identified.

You're blaming some girl that hasn't even been identified as part of the conspiracy? How do you know she isn't just an unknowing victim who's picture got grabbed off of Flickr? You heartless conspiracy bastard!

[idiom]

:rolleyes: http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/29288433.jpg

If you "deny" looking into the money man of a crime, that is by fucking definition a cover up. It matters not why the "denial" is done.

Thats not the denial. The denial is of reality. Its not like Congress doesn't understand that Saudis fund terror, or that America can't sustain deficits, it is that Congress *Must* not understand it. There jobs depend on them not understanding it.

If Congress started acting competently then they would be voted out and replaced with politicians who agreed with the publics fantasy that there is a free lunch and that America can do no wrong.

A cover-up would be investigating the money men and 'discovering alternate facts'. They don't even bother to hide it. It just gets dismissed as immaterial.

[jmdrake]

Thats not the denial. The denial is of reality. Its not like Congress doesn't understand that Saudis fund terror, or that America can't sustain deficits, it is that Congress *Must* not understand it. There jobs depend on them not understanding it.

If Congress started acting competently then they would be voted out and replaced with politicians who agreed with the publics fantasy that there is a free lunch and that America can do no wrong.

A cover-up would be investigating the money men and 'discovering alternate facts'. They don't even bother to hide it. It just gets dismissed as immaterial.

The "public's fantasy" is shaped by the media. The media didn't have to act like there was nothing to see. Or did they? (Google Operation Mocking Bird. Another "conspiracy theory").

[idiom]

The "public's fantasy" is shaped by the media. The media didn't have to act like there was nothing to see. Or did they? (Google Operation Mocking Bird. Another "conspiracy theory").

The way CNN America reports is totally different from the way CNN International reports. American news media projects a reality bubble. Actually it projects several different ones simultaneously. Is this because American audiences reject reality or because the oligarchy that owns the media does? There is certainly documented evidence that the military and administration manipulate media and discussion boards. That is different to direct control.

Americans have access to CNN International, the BBC, Al Jazzera and others. How many watch these sources?

American largely love their alternate reality. They eat up the red vs blue false political confrontations. Maybe its voluntary, maybe it coercive. Maybe its the flouride.

[Petar]

The way CNN America reports is totally different from the way CNN International reports. American news media projects a reality bubble. Actually it projects several different ones simultaneously. Is this because American audiences reject reality or because the oligarchy that owns the media does? There is certainly documented evidence that the military and administration manipulate media and discussion boards. That is different to direct control.

Americans have access to CNN International, the BBC, Al Jazzera and others. How many watch these sources?

American largely love their alternate reality. They eat up the red vs blue false political confrontations. Maybe its voluntary, maybe it coercive. Maybe its the flouride.

Maybe it's the kiwi juice.

[Anti Federalist]

Why can't Alex Jones do what deadspin did? Research it. Dig deep. Find the actors involved. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one could read that deadspin article and still believe the original story. Why can't the infowars crew do the same?

They have, a number of times, the MIAC document comes right to mind.

[dbill27]

Almost every responder in this thread seems to have completely missed the OP's point. It is amusing that he seems to be warning about people jumping to conclusions to fast without taking the team to consider everything and instantly he's hit with people completely jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth. To read some of the responses you would think that BlackTerrel started a thread defending the official 9/11 and Bin Laden stories.

[dbill27]

Why can't Alex Jones do what deadspin did? Research it. Dig deep. Find the actors involved. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one could read that deadspin article and still believe the original story. Why can't the infowars crew do the same?

You would think that if all these people are paid actors this would be so easy to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt in about five minutes. I mean, if these people are actors then in real life don't they have sisters, parents, cousins, former bosses, neighbors who could easily point out that they're lying?

[A Son of Liberty]

Almost every responder in this thread seems to have completely missed the OP's point. It is amusing that he seems to be warning about people jumping to conclusions to fast without taking the team to consider everything and instantly he's hit with people completely jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth. To read some of the responses you would think that BlackTerrel started a thread defending the official 9/11 and Bin Laden stories.

This.

Holy shit. I don't know much about the personalities, including BT, posting in this thread, so maybe there are some established track records here, but it seemed like an obvious, and well-made, point.

BT gave an example of a thorough piece of investigative journalism which arrived at an unassailable conclusion. What that story was, or who investigated it, wasn't consequential to the point. He then contrasted that with some "conspiracy theories" (for lack of a better phrase) which appear as from the ether mere moments after the event in question has occurred, and which raise questions (GRANTED - OFTEN FAIR ONES) rather than provide unassailable conclusions.

There is NOTHING wrong with raising those questions and pointing out inconsistencies, indeed. However, at some point, it would be GREAT to see those questions and inconsistencies actually chased down. Sandy Hook would seem to provide just such an opportunity. We heard that the father of one of the children was an actor. It would seem fairly basic and rather easy for a good investigative journalist to discover the truth of that claim. I saw talk in this very thread that the representative of James Holmes is supposedly playing the part of a Sandy Hook parent. Again, it would seem fairly basic and easy to discover the truth of that claim. Now, I don't know if Alex Jones has ever made either of those two particular claims, but it would seem well within his abilities, given his apparent budget and obvious manpower, to go and investigate them and bring back definitive, unassailable proof.

I'd very much like to see him do it.

Finally, it inevitably occurs that when a person questions the "conspiracy theory" (sic), that person is derided as gullible, or a toady, or blind or whatever. Quite the contrary. I, like A-F, automatically disbelieve whatever government and their media outlets tell me as a matter of course. That does not mean, however, that I automatically defer to whatever alternate stories emerge. In a way, the uninvestigated alternate explanations peddled by a media outlet like Jones' Info Wars are as much a disservice to public knowledge as whatever lies the government may be parrotting.

(fire away)

[pcosmar]

You would think that if all these people are paid actors this would be so easy to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt in about five minutes. I mean, if these people are actors then in real life don't they have sisters, parents, cousins, former bosses, neighbors who could easily point out that they're lying?

Not really, Cult communities close ranks to protect themselves.

It has happened before,, Satanic Cults and Pedophile rings have operated for years,, nearly in the open,, and protected by members in key positions.

USGOV does the same. The system will protect the system.

It is often years after that any truth comes out. and the story buried on the last page in small print.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

A lot of things are afoot in the US government. But I'd want to see more than people not crying enough before I accuse them of lying and being actors when it is wholly possible those people just lost their kids. When people just lost their kids lives I'd like to be 100% sure before I open them up to harassment.


I agree, but they story is getting fishier and fishier. I'm actually shocked about the admission there was a swat team member crawling around the woods in camo. That admission was likely a huge mistake by someone.

I would like to see proof regarding the actors as well.

As far as "opening them up to harassment," that falls on people doing the harassing.



You're blaming some girl that hasn't even been identified as part of the conspiracy? How do you know she isn't just an unknowing victim who's picture got grabbed off of Flickr? You heartless conspiracy bastard!


It was some girl who had her images stolen, according to the article in the OP.


You would think that if all these people are paid actors this would be so easy to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt in about five minutes. I mean, if these people are actors then in real life don't they have sisters, parents, cousins, former bosses, neighbors who could easily point out that they're lying?


What if only a few of them are paid actors?

And yeah, more investigation is needed, but it starts with theories. This is also how homicide detectives solve crimes.

[KingNothing]

Not wanting do get difficult answers is not the same as proof of a conspiracy. The US has a tonne of two faced relationships that require actively maintaining blindness to tolerate. Most of these are known and well understood. The MSM will never call them out in an interview, because they will never get an interview again. The establishment ignores them because its the only way to get their job done. Maybe its a job they shouldn't be doing, but America votes consistently to maintain a two-faced foreign policy because it ensure cheap oil and that Americans don't have to work too hard.

Maybe before the investigation gets to the root cause, its gets as far as Michael Moore got, which was Saudi backing. Michael Moore got completely ignored because America *must not* be enemies with Saudi Arabia.

Denial is not the same as a cover-up although it leaves a trail of mistakes and hypocrisy and retracted statements which looks pretty similar.

Powerful post, my friend!

[jmdrake]

Powerful post, my friend!

Yes. Because any post that keeps you safely inside your false reality security blanket is "powerful".

[jmdrake]

The way CNN America reports is totally different from the way CNN International reports. American news media projects a reality bubble. Actually it projects several different ones simultaneously. Is this because American audiences reject reality or because the oligarchy that owns the media does? There is certainly documented evidence that the military and administration manipulate media and discussion boards. That is different to direct control.

Americans have access to CNN International, the BBC, Al Jazzera and others. How many watch these sources?

American largely love their alternate reality. They eat up the red vs blue false political confrontations. Maybe its voluntary, maybe it coercive. Maybe its the flouride.

Does it matter? It's still a cover up and it's disingenuous to call it anything else. And for the record the media has been putting out "alternative facts" as you put it. That's why so many people were convinced Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11. In fact the whole Bush "axis of evil" speech was part of the cover up. Prior to that, the Northern Alliance had blamed an "alliance of evil" for the death of their leader Shah Massoud. Their "alliance of evil" included Al Qaeda, the Taliban and the Pakistani ISI. The U.S. government had to distract people from the I.S.I. because the I.S.I. was too connected to the C.I.A. The truth is there if you want to see it. Or you can be like BlackTerrel and concern yourself with amateur football players' imaginary girlfriends.

[jmdrake]

Almost every responder in this thread seems to have completely missed the OP's point. It is amusing that he seems to be warning about people jumping to conclusions to fast without taking the team to consider everything and instantly he's hit with people completely jumping to conclusions and putting words in his mouth. To read some of the responses you would think that BlackTerrel started a thread defending the official 9/11 and Bin Laden stories.

:rolleyes: Bollocks. A) The OP has a history of denying any conspiracy fact that is too uncomfortable for him and B) the OP has made this about Alex Jones even though Alex Jones isn't the main one pushing the Sandy Hook "it was all fake actors" story and he (BlackTerrel) has yet to link to the Alex Jones story on the subject that he claims to be talking about. And the very title "Real conspiracies" implies that all of the ones he doesn't sign onto (including 9/11) are "fake conspiracies". Sorry but you're off base in your analysis.

[jmdrake]

This.

Holy shit. I don't know much about the personalities, including BT, posting in this thread, so maybe there are some established track records here, but it seemed like an obvious, and well-made, point.

BT gave an example of a thorough piece of investigative journalism which arrived at an unassailable conclusion. What that story was, or who investigated it, wasn't consequential to the point. He then contrasted that with some "conspiracy theories" (for lack of a better phrase) which appear as from the ether mere moments after the event in question has occurred, and which raise questions (GRANTED - OFTEN FAIR ONES) rather than provide unassailable conclusions.

There is NOTHING wrong with raising those questions and pointing out inconsistencies, indeed. However, at some point, it would be GREAT to see those questions and inconsistencies actually chased down. Sandy Hook would seem to provide just such an opportunity. We heard that the father of one of the children was an actor. It would seem fairly basic and rather easy for a good investigative journalist to discover the truth of that claim. I saw talk in this very thread that the representative of James Holmes is supposedly playing the part of a Sandy Hook parent. Again, it would seem fairly basic and easy to discover the truth of that claim. Now, I don't know if Alex Jones has ever made either of those two particular claims, but it would seem well within his abilities, given his apparent budget and obvious manpower, to go and investigate them and bring back definitive, unassailable proof.


You are so stuck on defending BlackTerrel's point that you're ignoring the counterpoint being made. Alex Jones hasn't made Sandy Hook a priority. Yes it's covered it, but I've yet to see him come out with any "This is my definitive view of what happened at Sandy Hook" statement. Alex Jones has made definitive statements about other conspiracy theories. So to compare apples to apples you have to look at those theories. When Jones was on Piers Morgan he never said anything questioning the official story regarding Sandy Hook. He did, after Morgan brought it up, make points about what was wrong the the official 9/11 story. The OP was nothing but a red herring. I'm surprised you fell for it.

[jmdrake]

Oh. I finally found something on infowars.com related to BlackTerrel's OP. (No thanks to BlackTerrel.) One of Alex Jones reporters pointed out that the father of one of the victims asked if he should "read from a card" and he cracked an odd smile before doing the conference.

http://www.infowars.com/father-of-sandy-hook-victim-asks-read-the-card-seconds-before-tear-jerking-press-conference/

Here's Alex Jones' actual statement:

Statement from Alex Jones: “My deepest condolences go out to Mr. Parker and the rest of his family, as well as all the other families suffering from this tragedy. It appears that members of the media or government have given him a card and are telling him what to say as they steer reaction to this event, so this needs to be looked into.”

So Alex Jones didn't accuse the father of simply being a paid actor who's child had not died, but rather accused the government of possibly coaching him on what to say so as to manipulate public opinion. So the "conspiracy" BlackTerrel was asking Alex Jones to "prove" is not the conspiracy that Alex Jones had asserted. Straw man is straw.

[A Son of Liberty]

You are so stuck on defending BlackTerrel's point that you're ignoring the counterpoint being made. Alex Jones hasn't made Sandy Hook a priority. Yes it's covered it, but I've yet to see him come out with any "This is my definitive view of what happened at Sandy Hook" statement. Alex Jones has made definitive statements about other conspiracy theories. So to compare apples to apples you have to look at those theories. When Jones was on Piers Morgan he never said anything questioning the official story regarding Sandy Hook. He did, after Morgan brought it up, make points about what was wrong the the official 9/11 story. The OP was nothing but a red herring. I'm surprised you fell for it.

Okay, whatever. My point still stands: I'd love to see some real investigative journalism into these things by folks who do question the "official narrative" from time to time. Ben Swann leaps quickly to mind as someone who might pull on a few threads and see where they lead...

[dannno]

Okay, whatever. My point still stands: I'd love to see some real investigative journalism into these things by folks who do question the "official narrative" from time to time. Ben Swann leaps quickly to mind as someone who might pull on a few threads and see where they lead...

See, that's really all anybody here wants.. but since that doesn't exist, it tends to rabble rouse us because we KNOW they are up to no good.

[A Son of Liberty]

See, that's really all anybody here wants.. but since that doesn't exist, it tends to rabble rouse us because we KNOW they are up to no good.

:thumbs:

[jmdrake]

Okay, whatever. My point still stands: I'd love to see some real investigative journalism into these things by folks who do question the "official narrative" from time to time. Ben Swann leaps quickly to mind as someone who might pull on a few threads and see where they lead...

Fine. How deeply have you looked into Sandy Hook? I haven't looked much into it. But I found this video in "hot topics".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7TdgAgN4ys0

Note there is much more to it than "daddy looks like he's fake crying". There's a fictitious nurse, a memorial Facebook page that was put up before the shooting, an AR 15 pulled out of the truck of the car when it was supposedly inside the school etc. So why isn't that considered "investigative journalism"?

[dannno]

They had a hypothesis and then they investigated and they waited until all the evidence was airtight and indisputable before coming forward. That way everyone followed their lead and they left no doubt.

They also made sure not to be huge assholes in the 1% chance that they were wrong and they accused a guy whose girlfriend just died of lying.

What if these people really lost loved ones and they are now being harassed? Kind of a terrible thing - among the lowest a human being can do to another.

Maybe they were careful because the outcome doesn't matter and has absolutely zero effect on anything in the entire world, whereas what we are talking about are criminals engaging in a war against our freedom, which is actually important and should be addressed.

[juleswin]

Okay, whatever. My point still stands: I'd love to see some real investigative journalism into these things by folks who do question the "official narrative" from time to time. Ben Swann leaps quickly to mind as someone who might pull on a few threads and see where they lead...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tctVkG_1SA

Above is one of the most best investigative videos on the Sandy Hook incident. It is a bit long for most people but it thoroughly goes through the fact of this case in a way that have been done before. It avoids some of the mistakes of the earlier documentaries like the picture match, no rifle in trunk (Semi auto Siaga shotgun), correctly identifies the attackers car.

Please try and watch and see if you still believe the official story at the end

[A Son of Liberty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tctVkG_1SA

Above is one of the most best investigative videos on the Sandy Hook incident. It is a bit long for most people but it thoroughly goes through the fact of this case in a way that have been done before. It avoids some of the mistakes of the earlier documentaries like the picture match, no rifle in trunk (Semi auto Siaga shotgun), correctly identifies the attackers car.

Please try and watch and see if you still believe the official story at the end

I'll watch, but please note that at no point have I ever endorsed "the official story".

This is exactly what I'm talking about with you people - if anyone dares suggest that the "conspiracy theory(s)" aren't correct, those folks must obviously endorse the "official narrative". NO. No, no, no, NO!

[TheGrinch]

So in the Manti situation, important information hasn't yet come out regarding inconsistencies, so we're left to theorize whether he was hoaxed or part of a conspiracy.

In the Sandy Hook situation, there is much important information that has been ommitted with plenty of inconsistencies, so we're left to theorize if it was part of a conspiracy or not.

Apples and oranges? I think not. It's jsut a lot easier to determine a girl's fake than to determine information from a non-transparent government withholding important information.

You don't have to theorize to see that things don't add up, much like the Tao case.

[jmdrake]

I'll watch, but please note that at no point have I ever endorsed "the official story".

This is exactly what I'm talking about with you people - if anyone dares suggest that the "conspiracy theory(s)" aren't correct, those folks must obviously endorse the "official narrative". NO. No, no, no, NO!

You people? :confused: BT all convinced that there's more evidence to support his belief that this football player's girlfriend's "death" was a hoax. Okay. He asks the question "Why can't people like Alex Jones do the same?" Okay. People posts videos saying "Hey! Solid research (maybe) has been done!" Okay. And at the end of the day we're still stuck with "you people?" Ummm....okay. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know why you people (you know who you are) can't just frankly admit that some "conspiracy theories" are easier to swallow than others. I've got someone trying to argue with me in P.M. that just because the Pentagon now says they don't have Osama Bin Laden's DNA that that somehow doesn't mean anything because that doesn't mean the Pentagon said they never had OBL's DNA, although I never claimed they said they never had OBL's DNA. But again....okay.


So in the Manti situation, important information hasn't yet come out regarding inconsistencies, so we're left to theorize whether he was hoaxed or part of a conspiracy.

In the Sandy Hook situation, there is much important information that has been ommitted with plenty of inconsistencies, so we're left to theorize if it was part of a conspiracy or not.

Apples and oranges? I think not. It's jsut a lot easier to determine a girl's fake than to determine information from a non-transparent government withholding important information.

You don't have to theorize to see that things don't add up, much like the Tao case.

+rep!

[jcannon98188]

*face palm*

Deadzone has a staff of people that work on this. They did the exact same thing "This looks funny! Maybe it's fake?" "Wait! Has anyone ever SEEN this guy with her before?" except they did it in an office building. We don't have an office building. The internet is our office building. We are throwing around these ideas in the only way we have avail. to us.

[idiom]

Does it matter? It's still a cover up and it's disingenuous to call it anything else. And for the record the media has been putting out "alternative facts" as you put it. That's why so many people were convinced Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11. In fact the whole Bush "axis of evil" speech was part of the cover up. Prior to that, the Northern Alliance had blamed an "alliance of evil" for the death of their leader Shah Massoud. Their "alliance of evil" included Al Qaeda, the Taliban and the Pakistani ISI. The U.S. government had to distract people from the I.S.I. because the I.S.I. was too connected to the C.I.A. The truth is there if you want to see it. Or you can be like BlackTerrel and concern yourself with amateur football players' imaginary girlfriends.

Its all connected to the CIA and the international media talks about it. Anybody who wants to be informed can be. Saddam backing 9/11 was never official. However Americans *wanted* to believe it.

It is why Ron Paul had such a hard time. The facts are America is a nefarious international actor. America has been F###ing up the world for well over 60 years. You cannot accept that and simultaneously be hyper patriotic, believing that America is the greatest country ever. Its cognitive dissonance promoted by the public. If you acknowledge reality you must necessarily 'blame America'.

Who is ultimately responsible for the actions of the government in a democracy?

The guilt for everything the CIA has done lies with the voters. One can choose to accept the guilt or one can choose to accept a Fox or MSNBC narrative where any guilt that may exist lies with voters of the other party.

Its a buck the human mind finds to easy to pass.

With Manti, once the journalism was actually done, the only guilty parties were Manti and a lazy MSM. America didn't go to war and vote to stay at war over his fake girlfriend.

[jmdrake]

Its all connected to the CIA and the international media talks about it. Anybody who wants to be informed can be. Saddam backing 9/11 was never official. However Americans *wanted* to believe it.

It is why Ron Paul had such a hard time. The facts are America is a nefarious international actor. America has been F###ing up the world for well over 60 years. You cannot accept that and simultaneously be hyper patriotic, believing that America is the greatest country ever. Its cognitive dissonance promoted by the public. If you acknowledge reality you must necessarily 'blame America'.

Who is ultimately responsible for the actions of the government in a democracy?

The guilt for everything the CIA has done lies with the voters. One can choose to accept the guilt or one can choose to accept a Fox or MSNBC narrative where any guilt that may exist lies with voters of the other party.

Its a buck the human mind finds to easy to pass.

No disagreement there. In fact it underscores what I've been saying. It's easier for the public to accept that some unimportant football player is lying to them or even some well known famous ex football player like OJ Simpson. It's hard to accept that the politicians people have entrusted their lives to are not only lying to them but actively trying to do them in. It's not a matter of how well one conspiracy theory is researched versus another. It's a matter of which conspiracy theory is easier to accept.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Its all connected to the CIA and the international media talks about it. Anybody who wants to be informed can be. Saddam backing 9/11 was never official. However Americans *wanted* to believe it.


So your position is that people want to believe lies. So that excuses the liars, since they're only giving people what they want?

Everyone isn't as sharp or as smart as you are. That doesn't mean they deserve mistreatment, and it doesn't mean they want mistreatment.

[amy31416]

People who still haven't gotten past the "truther v. non-truther" thing in this movement should probably try to take a deep breath and get over it. "Truthers" aren't going away, and I don't want them to. The next four years of Obama (and the rest of our gov't) and beyond, the clamps are going to be tightened, and we need everyone (who isn't a lunatic.)

[A Son of Liberty]

You people? :confused: BT all convinced that there's more evidence to support his belief that this football player's girlfriend's "death" was a hoax. Okay. He asks the question "Why can't people like Alex Jones do the same?" Okay. People posts videos saying "Hey! Solid research (maybe) has been done!" Okay. And at the end of the day we're still stuck with "you people?" Ummm....okay. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know why you people (you know who you are) can't just frankly admit that some "conspiracy theories" are easier to swallow than others. I've got someone trying to argue with me in P.M. that just because the Pentagon now says they don't have Osama Bin Laden's DNA that that somehow doesn't mean anything because that doesn't mean the Pentagon said they never had OBL's DNA, although I never claimed they said they never had OBL's DNA. But again....okay.

What the hell are you talking about?

All I've ever said in this thread basically is that it would be great if someone would actually do some investigative journalism. I haven't endorsed anything.

[jmdrake]

What the hell are you talking about?

All I've ever said in this thread basically is that it would be great if someone would actually do some investigative journalism. I haven't endorsed anything.

Why do you need to make "you people" comments? Why not just look at the investigative journalism that has been done, including stuff done by Ben Swann that actually goes further than Alex Jones on the Sandy Hook incident and be done with it? There's no reason that I can think of for collectively referring to people you disagree with as "you people". But hey, whatever float's your boat.

[idiom]

There was a lad who went to jail for hacking a while back. Turned out he had broken into DOD and NASA servers among others looking for evidence of cover up of knowledge of extra terrestrials. He didn't find anything but its the right method.

For me truther vs non-truther comes down to whether one believes the government or a para government is really capable of being highly organised and efficient for an extended period of time. I don't think its possible thats what makes me a small government proponent. Truthers, for me, believe that it is possible, but unlike socialists believe such organisations are malicious. Thus they also are proponents of small government.

The theoretical basis of each camp is hugely different. A non-truther thinks the FED is bad because its ineptitude in price fixing causes bubbles and inflation. A truther thinks the FED is bad because it is controlled by forces set on asset stripping the Earth. Thus the boom and bust is not a result of market forces responding to inept central planning, but rather deliberate and carefully orchestrated. No tick up or down is uncontrolled.

Moving from being a libertarian non-truther to a truther means giving up Mises, Rothbard, and the rest of the economic under pinnings of what Ron Paul talks about.

[jmdrake]

Fallacious logic is fallacious. Just because socialism doesn't produce the best outcome for all doesn't mean it can't produce a good outcome for some. Do you believe that Kim Jung Un is getting the result that he wants in North Korea? (Total police state that gives him everything he wants even though it's literally feeding off the people). I guess you can't accept reality and be a Mises loving libertarian because that would mean accepting the fact that in some cases centrally planned economies actually achieve the desired results for the select few who implement them. I guess Ron Paul can't be a libertarian either since he is open about the conspiracy of the CIA to overthrow Mohammed Mossadeq in Iran. Oh and the JBS isn't libertarian since they were conspiracy theorists before Alex Jones was even born, which once again shows Ron Paul isn't a libertarian because of how highly he things of the JBS. Oh, and the moon landing must have been a hoax according to you because our government isn't competent enough to carry out something as complex as sending a man to the moon and bringing him back home safely. And the Manhattan project never happened because our government is too incompetent to actually keep something like that secret.


There was a lad who went to jail for hacking a while back. Turned out he had broken into DOD and NASA servers among others looking for evidence of cover up of knowledge of extra terrestrials. He didn't find anything but its the right method.

For me truther vs non-truther comes down to whether one believes the government or a para government is really capable of being highly organised and efficient for an extended period of time. I don't think its possible thats what makes me a small government proponent. Truthers, for me, believe that it is possible, but unlike socialists believe such organisations are malicious. Thus they also are proponents of small government.

The theoretical basis of each camp is hugely different. A non-truther thinks the FED is bad because its ineptitude in price fixing causes bubbles and inflation. A truther thinks the FED is bad because it is controlled by forces set on asset stripping the Earth. Thus the boom and bust is not a result of market forces responding to inept central planning, but rather deliberate and carefully orchestrated. No tick up or down is uncontrolled.

Moving from being a libertarian non-truther to a truther means giving up Mises, Rothbard, and the rest of the economic under pinnings of what Ron Paul talks about.

[idiom]

Fallacious logic is fallacious. Just because socialism doesn't produce the best outcome for all doesn't mean it can't produce a good outcome for some. Do you believe that Kim Jung Un is getting the result that he wants in North Korea? (Total police state that gives him everything he wants even though it's literally feeding off the people). I guess you can't accept reality and be a Mises loving libertarian because that would mean accepting the fact that in some cases centrally planned economies actually achieve the desired results for the select few who implement them. I guess Ron Paul can't be a libertarian either since he is open about the conspiracy of the CIA to overthrow Mohammed Mossadeq in Iran. Oh and the JBS isn't libertarian since they were conspiracy theorists before Alex Jones was even born, which once again shows Ron Paul isn't a libertarian because of how highly he things of the JBS. Oh, and the moon landing must have been a hoax according to you because our government isn't competent enough to carry out something as complex as sending a man to the moon and bringing him back home safely. And the Manhattan project never happened because our government is too incompetent to actually keep something like that secret.

I do need to apologise I was on my phone and it got way to hard to keep typing.

Re: North Korea, note the part about extended period of time. North Korea hasn't even been around as long as the USSR was. The FED has been around since 1913, the question is whether it can keep it together much longer without collapsing.

The Manhattan project was small and by no means efficient and had a very limited life time. The USSR was the first into space and had seriously advanced technology in a lot of areas but was an economic train wreck.

With regard to trutherism that I was talking about, the CIA which also pretty young compared to the global elite system of truther postulates, was set up to mess around in foreign countries. The example you have cited is also an example of nefarious forces inside a government generally bungling.

The CIA has clearly had its fingers in a lot of pies for the last 60 years. The problem is that it is royally screwing up everything it touches because it can't account for all the variables. It necessarily will always bugger things up because it is to big and too broad.

The 'Truther' school as I am using the term believes that the organising entitiy [I]are accounting for all the variables. The consider that what economists like those cited study and call market forces are simply charades of puppet masters creating economic theatre.

There is plenty of room to believe that governments act covertly and nefariously without having to buy into extreme levels of efficiency.

[UWDude]

I do need to apologise I was on my phone and it got way to hard to keep typing.

Re: North Korea, note the part about extended period of time. North Korea hasn't even been around as long as the USSR was. The FED has been around since 1913, the question is whether it can keep it together much longer without collapsing.

The Manhattan project was small and by no means efficient and had a very limited life time. The USSR was the first into space and had seriously advanced technology in a lot of areas but was an economic train wreck.

With regard to trutherism that I was talking about, the CIA which also pretty young compared to the global elite system of truther postulates, was set up to mess around in foreign countries. The example you have cited is also an example of nefarious forces inside a government generally bungling.

The CIA has clearly had its fingers in a lot of pies for the last 60 years. The problem is that it is royally screwing up everything it touches because it can't account for all the variables. It necessarily will always bugger things up because it is to big and too broad.

The 'Truther' school as I am using the term believes that the organising entitiy [I]are accounting for all the variables. The consider that what economists like those cited study and call market forces are simply charades of puppet masters creating economic theatre.

There is plenty of room to believe that governments act covertly and nefariously without having to buy into extreme levels of efficiency.

It's a big mistake to assume there are not factions within the CIA and FBI which keep secrets from each other and/or oppose each other internally. The "CIA" is a nebulous entity, with many missions and types. And then there is always the top secret. Those are the people who got to read the 12 redacted pages about Saudi Arabia in the 9/11 commission report.

The PATRIOT Act basically came out of heaven, and congress voted for it before barely reading it. Compartmentalization just takes a few people high in power manipulating structures. The structures will do as instructed, without knowing what the other is doing.

Rumsfeld and Cheney were masters at political manipulation. Study them sometime. They always got their way in Republican administrations. They are a couple of the many political puppet masters.

[BamaAla]

Back on the Manti story, it looks like maybe he wasn't involved. Who knows though; this thing gets more bizarre by the day. I hope, for his sake, that he is a innocent victim in this.

[jmdrake]

You are missing the overall point. And I think it's because you don't understand a basic principle of physics which is entropy. In other words it's easier to purposefully tear something down then it is to build it up. Have you ever wondered why it takes seconds for Controlled Demolition Inc to tear down a building that it took months or even years to construct? Entropy. Sure it takes CDI a while to wire it properly, but even that is only measured in days. And it takes that long because they want to minimize the damage.

You should take the time to read the book "Confessions of an economic hitman" by John Perkins. In it he explains how he would, on behalf of international bankers, systematically destroy the economies of developing nations. Under your false theory of libertarianism that's not possible. Conspiracies can't achieve desired results. Only they do every day. That's because a desired result that is less overall wealth for everyone is much easier to achieve than one that creates more. Here is a practical example. Part of the derivatives bubble is that megabanks would buy credit default swaps, basically insurance against default, for other financial institutions and then turn around and squeeze credit on those same institutions in order to make a profit. Did it work? Duh! Of course it worked! Was it good for the overall economy? Most certainly not. So understanding that people can conspire together to create a result that is good for them is not the same as saying "Well I guess Austrian economics isn't truth then".





With regard to trutherism that I was talking about, the CIA which also pretty young compared to the global elite system of truther postulates, was set up to mess around in foreign countries. The example you have cited is also an example of nefarious forces inside a government generally bungling.

Is a home invader "bungling" when he kills everyone in the house and makes off with the loot? No. And a dictator isn't bungling when he destroys his own country and gets filthy rich in the process.



The CIA has clearly had its fingers in a lot of pies for the last 60 years. The problem is that it is royally screwing up everything it touches because it can't account for all the variables. It necessarily will always bugger things up because it is to big and too broad.

The 'Truther' school as I am using the term believes that the organising entitiy [I]are accounting for all the variables. The consider that what economists like those cited study and call market forces are simply charades of puppet masters creating economic theatre.


You do not have to "control all of the variables" to get a desired result. Let's take the 1993 WTC bombing. We know the basic facts of what happened. An FBI informant was inside a cell of radical Muslims. He informed his handler that they wanted to blow up the WTC and he was the bomb maker. He asked to swap the explosives with harmless powder. The handlers said no, use real explosives. Seven people died in that attack. It was "bungled" to the extent that the entire building didn't collapse, but it was a successful terrorist attack. Now, using your warped logic, only the terrorists themselves could have wanted the bombing to happen because only olactors outside of government are able to achieve a nefarious purpose. There are two possibilities for those inside the FBI who made the decision to use real explosives. One is that such a person is incredibly stupid. The other is that such uncomfortably evil. So, we must believe that a government that is able to recruit the best and brightest to do moon landings is only able to get absolute idiots to work in its intelligence service, because otherwise libertarianism is false? Sorry, but that makes no sense. And someone inside the FBI that desired a nefarious result didn't need to "control all of the variables." He only needed to control one which is whether or not the informant used real explosives.

Fast forward to the most recent underwear bomber. The CIA admits it was controlling the bomber the whole time. Was it to "foil a plot" or was it to scare the public into giving up more rights? Who knows. What is known is that they were controlling all of the variables and they achieved the desired result whichever it was. If it was a real plot then good for them! They foiled it! If it was a stunt to scare the public...well it worked. Either way it smacks down your "They can't control a conspiracy" thesis.



There is plenty of room to believe that governments act covertly and nefariously without having to buy into extreme levels of efficiency.

Again that's a straw man argument. It doesn't require "extreme levels of efficiency" to benefit a few.

[jmdrake]

Back on the Manti story, it looks like maybe he wasn't involved. Who knows though; this thing gets more bizarre by the day. I hope, for his sake, that he is a innocent victim in this.

You mean (gasp) the OP jumped to a conclusion based on partial information? I guess BlackTerrel is a fantasy football conspiracy theorist.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Back on the Manti story, it looks like maybe he wasn't involved. Who knows though; this thing gets more bizarre by the day. I hope, for his sake, that he is a innocent victim in this.


He says he learned it was a hoax on X date, and then continued talking about her long after that. So whether he was fully involved, he hasn't admitted. However, it does sound like he has admitting to continuing the charade after discovering it. That was probably a stupid admission, but the whole thing sounds like it was a stupid plan. Even that shows this guy was involved to some extent. Who would keep talking about their girlfriend after they find out she never actually existed? Even if he just felt stupid and embarrassed, he could have just shut up about her dying of cancer, etc. Shit, he was bringing it up, himself.

[No1ButPaul08]

You mean (gasp) the OP jumped to a conclusion based on partial information? I guess BlackTerrel is a fantasy football conspiracy theorist.

No it was the article he posted and applauded that drove the narrative on the story. The article did expose a hoax but Deadspin somehow came to the conclusion that T'eo was involved based on very little facts and mostly speculation only the History Channel could rival. But the American media and public, by and large, bought it and crucified T'eo even though he was the victim.

[No1ButPaul08]

You mean (gasp) the OP jumped to a conclusion based on partial information? I guess BlackTerrel is a fantasy football conspiracy theorist.

No it was the article he posted and applauded that drove the narrative on the story. The article did expose a hoax but Deadspin somehow came to the conclusion that T'eo was involved based on very little facts and mostly speculation only the History Channel could rival. But the American media and public, by and large, bought it and crucified T'eo even though he was the victim.

[jmdrake]

No it was the article he posted and applauded that drove the narrative on the story. The article did expose a hoax but Deadspin somehow came to the conclusion that T'eo was involved based on very little facts and mostly speculation only the History Channel could rival. But the American media and public, by and large, bought it and crucified T'eo even though he was the victim.

BlackTerrel jumped to the conclusion that the Deadspin's jump to a conclusion was "good journalism". Yet BlackTerrel can't bring himself to come to grips with facts that rock his worldview like the fact that the Pentagon at first said they used DNA evidence as proof of death for Osama Bin Laden and now they say the don't have and DNA records. That's my point. Sloppy journalism is taken as "fact" when it reaches a conclusion that certain people can accept. Good journalism helps you reach a conclusion that you otherwise would not be willing to accept. Whether or not some college football player lied about having a girlfriend who died is not life altering history changing information. Whether or not Osama Bin Laden was killed in a raid by Navy SEALS is potentially life altering history changing information. The same is true regarding whatever happened in Sandy Hook. Even if the only thing the media and police lied about is whether or not Lanza used an AR-15, it is HUGE information. Therefore it will be more difficult to accept something that doesn't fit the already established narrative.

In other words, the issue isn't how good the journalism is. The issue is what is the mental inertia the journalist has to overcome in order to convince the audience of his facts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f6qFBQD9U

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Contrast investigative journalism with this. Two middle aged white women with dark hair

http://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/crisis-actors1.jpg
do you have youtube video links?

[BlackTerrel]

Again, all the state needs to do to squash the CT is for them to release the video tapes.

Everyone knows that wouldn't squash any conspiracy theories. Showing a birth certificate or showing Obama in Church didn't squash conspiracy theories either.

[Danke]

Everyone knows that wouldn't squash any conspiracy theories. Showing a birth certificate or showing Obama in Church didn't squash conspiracy theories either.

The Birth Certificate raised more questions than it solved. I'd like to see his collage records.

[BlackTerrel]

You're blaming some girl that hasn't even been identified as part of the conspiracy? How do you know she isn't just an unknowing victim who's picture got grabbed off of Flickr? You heartless conspiracy bastard!

No one ever accused the girl in the photo of being part of the conspiracy. The girl on the phone who talked to Teo's teammates was clearly in on it.


You mean (gasp) the OP jumped to a conclusion based on partial information? I guess BlackTerrel is a fantasy football conspiracy theorist.

I never said Teo plotted the whole thing. He clearly lied, he isn't really denying that.

[BlackTerrel]

Oh. I finally found something on infowars.com related to BlackTerrel's OP. (No thanks to BlackTerrel.) One of Alex Jones reporters pointed out that the father of one of the victims asked if he should "read from a card" and he cracked an odd smile before doing the conference.

Oh wow an "odd smile". This is how conspiracies are exposed. You are right.

[BlackTerrel]

The Birth Certificate raised more questions than it solved. I'd like to see his collage records.

Will that really change anything? Really? I bet the same percentage will still say he was born in Kenya.

[Danke]

Will that really change anything? Really? I bet the same percentage will still say he was born in Kenya.

No, but it is curious. Many have speculated that he gave up his citizenship while in Indonesia and later applied for foreign student aid.

[bolil]

There is a subtle difference between one who is a baffling idiot and one who has been baffled into an idiot by the media. Show some respect. In the end, as the world educates us by having our superiors teach us, in clear contrast, God transforms us by having our inferiors teach us.

wow. If you ever write a book would you send me a copy, or at least notify me. Can an "inferior" teach? If so, are they truly inferior? In the eyes of God, or the higher arbiter, we are all equally inferior I suppose. Like Nietzsche said, and I believe, the greatest strength is often found in the simplest of people.