Guns don't kill people, prescription SSRI's* do.

[afwjam]

Lanza had been through the psychiatric system and medicated just like almost every other school shooter. Its odd that the school shootings really became frequent starting in the late 80's about the time a large number of people started taking SSRI's. As someone who has driven my motorcycle at 150 MPH in the middle of the night do to a SSRI* induced manic episode, I know that the side effects can be very dangerous. Its a connection I made a while ago, that the media and politicians are definitely not talking about. I am happy myself NOT to be taking SSRI's.*

http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

*Side effect symptoms may include auditory hallucinations, visual hallucinations, tactile hallucinations, delusions, confusion, agitation, delirium, disorientation, fluctuation of consciousness, insomnia, dizziness, nausea, feeling faint, inattention, memory impairments, perceptual disturbances, pruritus/itching, anxiety, depersonalization, hypertonia, hyperthermia, formal thought disorder, psychosis, mania, mood disturbances, restlessness, and behavioral disturbances, tachycardia, seizures, tremors, autonomic dysfunction, hyperpyrexia, extreme muscle rigidity resembling neuroleptic malignant syndrome and rebound spasticity

Trying to get some traction for this idea on Reddit, not sure they wanna hear or think about it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/16gsu4/guns_dont_kill_people_prescription_ssris_do/

[Peace Piper]

Trying to get some traction for this idea on Reddit, not sure they wanna hear or think about it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/16gsu4/guns_dont_kill_people_prescription_ssris_do/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpinCRaAQOk

Throwing this into some of their faces has lead to some interesting responses.

Mostly, it's just ignored:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/32/womancoveringherearshea.jpg

Sometimes they actually start bashing MM, then total confusion sets in and they give up.

Here's their numero uno Gun Grabber Extraordinaire saying -- almost shouting-- that it might be the DRUGS!
They Can't Handle The Truth!! Even when it's rubbed into their filthy hypocritical faces.

Edit- Add this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAO5_Hk06Mc

That's Robert F. Kennedy's 9th kid Douglas Harriman Kennedy!
Double Fun!

[squarepusher]

Do you have evidence Adam Lanza was on prescription drugs?

[afwjam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpinCRaAQOk

Throwing this into some of their faces has lead to some interesting responses.

Mostly, it's just ignored:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/32/womancoveringherearshea.jpg

Sometimes they actually start bashing MM, then total confusion sets in and they give up.

Here's their numero uno Gun Grabber Extraordinaire saying -- almost shouting-- that it might be the DRUGS!
They Can't Handle The Truth!! Even when it's rubbed into their filthy hypocritical faces.

Edit- Add this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAO5_Hk06Mc

That's Robert F. Kennedy's 9th kid Douglas Harriman Kennedy!
Double Fun!

Great stuff, added it to the reddit post.

[afwjam]

Do you have evidence Adam Lanza was on prescription drugs?

There is very little evidence of him in the past couple years. Multiple stories have been run saying he was medicated.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/15/1170258/--He-was-on-medication

[TywinLannister]

This is like blaming diet sodas for causing obesity. People with mental illness are more likely to take antidepressants. So when a crazy person does something crazy, chances are good that he was taking one of these drugs. Correlation does not imply causation. The vast majority of people taking these drugs have mild depression and don't do crazy things. This is the same logic liberals use to blame guns for crime.

[Peace Piper]

This is like blaming diet sodas for causing obesity. People with mental illness are more likely to take antidepressants. So when a crazy person does something crazy, chances are good that he was taking one of these drugs. Correlation does not imply causation. The vast majority of people taking these drugs have mild depression and don't do crazy things. This is the same logic liberals use to blame guns for crime.

You took the time to read this thread and post, now if I could respectfully suggest you take just a minute or so and scan, just scanning should get the point across, the following paper at the US Government National Institutes of Health:

Antidepressants and Violence-problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

In these trials, hostile events are found to excess in both adults and children on paroxetine compared with placebo, and are found across indications, and both on therapy and during withdrawal. The rates were highest in children with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), where the odds ratio of a hostile event was 17 times greater (95% confidence interval [CI], 2.22–130.0).

Another mechanism that may contribute to hostile events is treatment-induced emotional blunting. Several reports published since 1990 have linked SSRI intake with the production of emotional blunting, detachment, or an amotivational syndrome, described in one report as the equivalent to a “chemical lobotomy” [26–29]

Much Much More at link

in case you don't go to the link at least read this from the first case study:

Annex: The Illustrative Medico-Legal Cases

Case 1

DS was a 60-year-old man with a history of five prior anxiety/depressive episodes. These did not involve suicidality, aggressive behaviour, or other serious disturbance. All prior episodes had resolved within several weeks. In 1990 DS had had an episode of depression, which his doctor treated with fluoxetine. He had a clear adverse reaction to fluoxetine involving agitation, restlessness and possible hallucinations, which worsened over a three-week period despite treatment with trazodone and propranolol that might have been expected to minimise the severity of such a reaction. After fluoxetine was discontinued DS responded rapidly to imipramine.

In 1998, a new family doctor, unaware of this adverse reaction to fluoxetine, prescribed paroxetine 20 mg to DS, for what was diagnosed as an anxiety disorder. Two days later having had, it is believed, two doses of medication, DS using a gun put three bullets each through the heads of his wife, his daughter who was visiting, and his nine-month-old granddaughter before killing himself...MORE>>

This describes PERFECTLY AND EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING DESCRIBED IN SHOOTING AFTER SHOOTING

and we are all in danger. Don't forget the drugged up vets either.

America's Medicated Army
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1812055-2,00.html


http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2008/0806/360_warmy_0616.jpg

At least 115 soldiers killed themselves last year, including 36 in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army said on May 29. That's the highest toll since it started keeping such records in 1980. Nearly 40% of Army suicide victims in 2006 and 2007 took psychotropic drugs — overwhelmingly, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) like Prozac and Zoloft. While the Army cites failed relationships as the primary cause, some outside experts sense a link between suicides and prescription-drug use — though there is also no way of knowing how many suicide attempts the antidepressants may have prevented by improving a soldier's spirits. "The high percentage of U.S. soldiers attempting suicide after taking SSRIs should raise serious concerns," says Dr. Joseph Glenmullen, who teaches psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. "And there's no question they're using them to prop people up in difficult circumstances."----->MORE

Remember: IT SAYS RIGHT ON THE LABEL that suicide is a possible side effect.

[Peace Piper]

Now the thread title is not visible to me in any of these categories:
hot new controversial top

it also says:
Welcome to r/Politics! Please note: US politics, news only and no meme images. For a place with stricter moderation and civil discussion, please visit /r/Ask_Politics.

so the places without "strict moderation" won't allow this to be discussed?

This is outrageous! What is going on here? Maybe the Reddit staff is all on SSRIs?
What is the reason for the reluctance to discuss whether drugs with suicide warnings on the bottle are dangerous?

[aloneinthewilderness]

This is sort of on/off topic, but it's something I've been thinking about while people on both sides are talking about mental health issues past and present determining whether or not one should own a firearm. While I am in total agreement that SSRIs can be dangerous, and that they should not be given out like candy to anybody and everybody for everything, I have seen benefits to them as well. My wife is currently on Paxil, and is much better off for the time being. She recognizes that it is a serious drug, and it is not something that she should be on for the rest of her life. For now, though, it is helping her, along with therapy, to recover from PSTD caused by childhood trauma. Could she do it without medication? Maybe, but I have witnessed a very real difference in her quality of mental health since she started taking it.

I have been on Zoloft, and have voluntarily committed myself to a psych ward when I went through some really dark times caused by things going on in my life. At the least the Zoloft calmed my emotions enough to allow me to move on and get back to normal. I was only on it for about two months, and I decided that was enough. I have no desire to go back on any SSRI ever, but I cannot deny that it helped. Again, I may have been able get back to normal without meds, but I still believe it was beneficial.

I'm not necessarily here to defend SSRIs, the point I am trying to make is that going through rough times and being diagnosed with certain things should not strip me or anyone else of their right to self defense with a firearm. When I decided to seek professional help, I knew that it would not affect my ability to own guns. If the law made it so that I could not, I would have never, ever sought that help. While I am not, and was not a danger to anybody, I can see that same situation causing people who may need help more than I did to not seek the counseling or care that they need, and that could cause catastrophe.

Most here are not advocating for any new laws or restrictions for firearms ownership, but I think this is something that needs to be considered when listening to those who are calling for better mental health screenings. Discouraging people to seek professional help (good help, not drug pushers with a medical license) by threatening their rights is not the solution.

[tttppp]

Lanza had been through the psychiatric system and medicated just like almost every other school shooter. Its odd that the school shootings really became frequent starting in the late 80's about the time a large number of people started taking SSRI's. As someone who has driven my motorcycle at 150 MPH in the middle of the night do to a SSRI* induced manic episode, I know that the side effects can be very dangerous. Its a connection I made a while ago, that the media and politicians are definitely not talking about. I am happy myself NOT to be taking SSRI's.*

http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

*Side effect symptoms may include auditory hallucinations, visual hallucinations, tactile hallucinations, delusions, confusion, agitation, delirium, disorientation, fluctuation of consciousness, insomnia, dizziness, nausea, feeling faint, inattention, memory impairments, perceptual disturbances, pruritus/itching, anxiety, depersonalization, hypertonia, hyperthermia, formal thought disorder, psychosis, mania, mood disturbances, restlessness, and behavioral disturbances, tachycardia, seizures, tremors, autonomic dysfunction, hyperpyrexia, extreme muscle rigidity resembling neuroleptic malignant syndrome and rebound spasticity

Trying to get some traction for this idea on Reddit, not sure they wanna hear or think about it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/16gsu4/guns_dont_kill_people_prescription_ssris_do/


What the doctors dont tell you is they kill your liver and kidneys big time. If you have pain they can make it much worse. It can cause impotence and severe weight gain. Overall they cause more depression because the patients feel so depressed about their bodies.

[presence]

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/195/3/211.full
Emotional side-effects of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors: qualitative study

[tttppp]

This is like blaming diet sodas for causing obesity. People with mental illness are more likely to take antidepressants. So when a crazy person does something crazy, chances are good that he was taking one of these drugs. Correlation does not imply causation. The vast majority of people taking these drugs have mild depression and don't do crazy things. This is the same logic liberals use to blame guns for crime.

You dont know the mental health industry very well. These drugs have bad side effects which makes you need to take more drugs. Additionally, they dont fix the problem, so you are likely to stay on them in the long term. They basically want all mental patients sitting there waiting for their disability check each month. They have no interest in you having a real life. Additionally, when they switch drugs on you, there is a huge risk something bad can happen. People dont just happily take these drugs and live a normal life for the most part.

[Peace Piper]

This is sort of on/off topic, but it's something I've been thinking about while people on both sides are talking about mental health issues past and present determining whether or not one should own a firearm. While I am in total agreement that SSRIs can be dangerous, and that they should not be given out like candy to anybody and everybody for everything, I have seen benefits to them as well. My wife is currently on Paxil, and is much better off for the time being. She recognizes that it is a serious drug, and it is not something that she should be on for the rest of her life. For now, though, it is helping her, along with therapy, to recover from PSTD caused by childhood trauma. Could she do it without medication? Maybe, but I have witnessed a very real difference in her quality of mental health since she started taking it.



I am all for whatever helps people get through the day. It becomes a problem if the cure is more dangerous (short and long term) than the problem it is supposed to fix.

The thing about our particular system is this: Maybe (I think probably but that's just me) there is a natural substance (cannabis? helps lots) that could do the same thing without needing suicide warnings. But that potential is not pursued due to the fact that plants cannot be patented.

I don't want to see these drugs outlawed, but something is making these kids pick up guns and shoot their schools up. What is it? On the other hand, Cannabis helps hundreds of thousands get through the day and when was the last time you heard of a school shooter being high on cannabis? It's always ALWAYS SSRI's. Yet Cannabis is illegal to grow and possess per Federal Law.

So the "cure" in this case means that we have tens of thousands of potential ticking time bombs. This is a problem.

NO?

[tttppp]

I am all for whatever helps people get through the day. It becomes a problem if the cure is more dangerous (short and long term) than the problem it is supposed to fix.

The thing about our particular system is this: Maybe (I think probably but that's just me) there is a natural substance (cannabis? helps lots) that could do the same thing without needing suicide warnings. But that potential is not pursued due to the fact that plants cannot be patented.

I don't want to see these drugs outlawed, but something is making these kids pick up guns and shoot their schools up. What is it? On the other hand, Cannabis helps hundreds of thousands get through the day and when was the last time you heard of a school shooter being high on cannabis? It's always ALWAYS SSRI's. Yet Cannabis is illegal to grow and possess per Federal Law.

So the "cure" in this case means that we have tens of thousands of potential ticking time bombs. This is a problem.

NO?

Chinese traditional medicine is still legal. That can fix most of their problems without side effects.

[aloneinthewilderness]

I am all for whatever helps people get through the day. It becomes a problem if the cure is more dangerous (short and long term) than the problem it is supposed to fix.

The thing about our particular system is this: Maybe (I think probably but that's just me) there is a natural substance (cannabis? helps lots) that could do the same thing without needing suicide warnings. But that potential is not pursued due to the fact that plants cannot be patented.

I don't want to see these drugs outlawed, but something is making these kids pick up guns and shoot their schools up. What is it? On the other hand, Cannabis helps hundreds of thousands get through the day and when was the last time you heard of a school shooter being high on cannabis? It's always ALWAYS SSRI's. Yet Cannabis is illegal to grow and possess per Federal Law.

So the "cure" in this case means that we have tens of thousands of potential ticking time bombs. This is a problem.

NO?I agree completely that cannabis can work wonders for people suffering from depression, anxiety, and many other things. Unfortunately, cannabis was not enough to pull me from the black hole I was in when I decided to go on an SSRI. Every other time I've gone through rough times it has been more than sufficient, though. I also agree that SSRIs are dangerous, and clearly they have played a part in some of the violently crazy things some people have done.

[TywinLannister]

You dont know the mental health industry very well. These drugs have bad side effects which makes you need to take more drugs. Additionally, they dont fix the problem, so you are likely to stay on them in the long term. They basically want all mental patients sitting there waiting for their disability check each month. They have no interest in you having a real life. Additionally, when they switch drugs on you, there is a huge risk something bad can happen. People dont just happily take these drugs and live a normal life for the most part.

Sorry but thats garbage. I know plenty of people who have been taking them for years and who have been helped tremendously by these drugs. All drugs can cause side effects in some people, for other people they are beneficial.

[tttppp]

Sorry but thats garbage. I know plenty of people who have been taking them for years and who have been helped tremendously by these drugs. All drugs can cause side effects in some people, for other people they are beneficial.

Thats bs. Virtually all medication is bad for you whether you get a benefit or not. Some may get the desired result, but most will get unpleasant side effects. Thats very common in the mental health industry. Plus why the hell would someone with MILD depression take SSRIs? How stupid can you be? You really dont understand this topic. There is no such thing as drugs that a beneficial for you. You dont just take drugs because they are good for you, because they aren't. Ask your friends with mild depression if its worth it to become impotent and gain lots of weight they will never get rid of.

[TywinLannister]

Thats bs. Virtually all medication is bad for you whether you get a benefit or not. Some may get the desired result, but most will get unpleasant side effects. Thats very common in the mental health industry. Plus why the hell would someone with MILD depression take SSRIs? How stupid can you be? You really dont understand this topic. There is no such thing as drugs that a beneficial for you. You dont just take drugs because they are good for you, because they aren't. Ask your friends with mild depression if its worth it to become impotent and gain lots of weight they will never get rid of.

Riiiiight. All medicine is bad for you. People are so much better dying from infections instead of taking antibiotics, or getting polio instead of getting vaccinated.

[tttppp]

Riiiiight. All medicine is bad for you. People are so much better dying from infections instead of taking antibiotics, or getting polio instead of getting vaccinated.

If medicine is so good for you, why dont you start taking some? Have a side of medicine with your meal since its so good for you. And the medicines you listed cause problems too. You dont just take them thinking they are good for you.

[acptulsa]

Riiiiight. All medicine is bad for you. People are so much better dying from infections instead of taking antibiotics, or getting polio instead of getting vaccinated.

Right. All medicine is bad for you. All of it.

'Getting polio instead of getting vaccinated' is a slap in the faces of all those people who got polio from their vaccine. Hell, it's a slap in the face to all those people who got the flu from their flu vaccine. It happens all the time. In fact, I'd say that these days more people get polio from the polio vaccine than from any other method of transmission. I'm not arguing that it isn't rare. I'm not saying that we don't have a whole lot less polio now than we did before the vaccine. I'm saying that's the calculated risk you take when you take a polio vaccine. Period.

Antibiotics are proven to suppress the immune system. When you've got an active infection which is overwhelming your immune system right now, that's of little consequence. But taking antibiotics as a preventative is bad for you. Chemotherapy does nasty things to you. It makes your hair fall out, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. If it's harder on your cancer than it is on you, you may decide it's worth it and you may well be right. If you don't have cancer, you're an idiot to take chemo.

Some people belong to a religion that forbids medication. Some of them die as a result--needlessly, despite the fact that they could be saved. Some people will put 'most any drug in their system on the chance that it might be fun. Some of them die as a result--needlessly--as well.

Any medication requires a cost/benefit analysis. Any medication. Most have some benefit. All have some cost. Cold medicines make you less uncomfortable, but the price you pay is the cold lingers longer. Some people know this, and take them anyway. I don't. Some people don't think they can endure the symptoms, or they just don't want a cold to affect their performance at work. I am not one of them.

When doctors don't explain the risks and the costs, or when people don't listen because they saw a commercial and they're sold on the benefits to the point where they won't listen to the costs and risks, that's when there's a problem. And the risks of SSRIs are being downplayed right now. Our duty is to say, hey, guess what?

[asurfaholic]

Thats bs. Virtually all medication is bad for you whether you get a benefit or not. Some may get the desired result, but most will get unpleasant side effects. Thats very common in the mental health industry. Plus why the hell would someone with MILD depression take SSRIs? How stupid can you be? You really dont understand this topic. There is no such thing as drugs that a beneficial for you. You dont just take drugs because they are good for you, because they aren't. Ask your friends with mild depression if its worth it to become impotent and gain lots of weight they will never get rid of.

No. Not virtually all medication is bad for you. No.

On the other hand, I believe that the anti depressants and other psychiatric drugs are the worst things you can give to somebody who is hurting or in pain, with some exceptions. My wife took a very mild anti-depressant when she went through a tough time, and it helped her. She got better, and stopped taking them. However, the bad cases are a whole different story. Some people who have never been suicidial or violent suddenly become so when they take these drugs, and the blame lies soley on the pharmaceuticals that create them, and sell them without fully warning about the negative side effects. The doctors don't closely monitor the patients, and the communities bear the weight of the pain when someone gets their chemicals out of wack.

But no, not all drugs are bad. I had high blood pressure a while back, took some blood pressure medicine and it fixed within a few weeks. Watched my diet since, and have never had blood pressure problems since.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

One thing about SSRIs is this... notice that the "gun control" bullshit keeps mentioning mental health issues.

What about this proposal... If you have EVER been prescribed drugs such as anti-depressants, or anti-psychotics, or bigfuckyouupamine, then you will be ineligible for legal firearms possession.

That's quite possibly where this could be headed. I don't like it. Being that "doctors" hand out SSRIs like candy, a very small percentage of those who have taken SSRIs shoot up schools.

[tttppp]

No. Not virtually all medication is bad for you. No.

On the other hand, I believe that the anti depressants and other psychiatric drugs are the worst things you can give to somebody who is hurting or in pain, with some exceptions. My wife took a very mild anti-depressant when she went through a tough time, and it helped her. She got better, and stopped taking them. However, the bad cases are a whole different story. Some people who have never been suicidial or violent suddenly become so when they take these drugs, and the blame lies soley on the pharmaceuticals that create them, and sell them without fully warning about the negative side effects. The doctors don't closely monitor the patients, and the communities bear the weight of the pain when someone gets their chemicals out of wack.

But no, not all drugs are bad. I had high blood pressure a while back, took some blood pressure medicine and it fixed within a few weeks. Watched my diet since, and have never had blood pressure problems since.

Whether you notice it or not, pretty much all medication has side effects. If you are perfectly healthy, you wont notice them as much, but it still hurts your body. Western medicine just doesnt have the ability to detect small changes in your body.

And virtually none of the medication in western medicine corrects the problem. They only work when you take them. Once you stop, you are on your own.

[asurfaholic]

Whether you notice it or not, pretty much all medication has side effects. If you are perfectly healthy, you wont notice them as much, but it still hurts your body. Western medicine just doesnt have the ability to detect small changes in your body.

And virtually none of the medication in western medicine corrects the problem. They only work when you take them. Once you stop, you are on your own.

Well, my blood pressure got fixed, but really - that doesn't mean that what you are saying isn't true.

I don't know if I'd go so far to say that all drugs are bad for you, but I'm not going to say they are good either. As a rule of thumb, I don't take any medicine, unless it is absolutely neccessary. Even when I get a cold, I stay away from the tylenol. I fought my wife hard as I could (considering the circumstances, I could only say so much) to get her to pass on the anti-depressants, but they really helped her to some degree. A chemical imbalance can be corrected sometimes.

[awake]

"Never let a good crises go to waste" simply means this: Any politically inclined group (even the least connected) takes a seemingly unrelated horrendous tragic event and molds their pet issue on to it in hopes of enticing the great god state to recognize them and shower great sums of power and wealth upon them.

Its the drugs they scream! Its the gun owners, its the Jews!... and so on, and so on. Are psycotropic drugs the sole reason for what these monsters do? I personally see it as a small but fractional factor. Insane mass murders, drugged or not, have a field day with our largly docile populace thanks to the State structure and its fraudulent propagandizing of its great power to protect.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Its the drugs they scream! Its the gun owners, its the Jews!... and so on, and so on. Are psycotropic drugs the sole reason for what these monsters do? I personally see it as a small but fractional factor.


And here we have some people playing right into their hands.

[Peace Piper]

"Never let a good crises go to waste" simply means this: Any politically inclined group (even the least connected) takes a seemingly unrelated horrendous tragic event and molds their pet issue on to it to in hopes of enticing the great god state to recognize them and shower great sums of power and wealth upon them.

Its the drugs they scream! Its the gun owners, its the Jews!... and so on, and so on. Are psycotropic drugs the sole reason for what these monsters do? I personally see it as a small but fractional factor. Insane mass murders, drugged or not, have a field day with our largly docile populace thanks to the State structure and its fraudulent propagandizing of its great power to protect.

If you have a good guess as to what is behind the following statistic the nation would love to hear it just as soon as you could let us all know (it's an urgent problem, isn't it?)


Prior to 1989, there were only a handful of incidents in which two or more victims were killed by firearms at a school, including the 1966 University of Texas massacre, the 1974 Olean High School shooting, the 1976 California State University, Fullerton massacre, and the 1979 Cleveland Elementary School shooting (the 1927 Bath School disaster was a bombing, not a shooting, with a firearm used only to detonate explosives). School shootings prior to the late 1990s, when they received intensive press and official coverage, were considered local incidents and may be substantially underreported in current tabulations, raising questions as to whether school shootings are actually increasing or are simply receiving more attention in recent years. From 1989 to 2012, there have been at least 40 such incidents.
details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

The first antidepressant SSRI drug, Prozac, was introduced in 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prozac)

By the way, have you read this US National Institutes of Health (that is not Scientology, for those ready to throw that particular slimeball)

Antidepressants and Violence-problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

In these trials, hostile events are found to excess in both adults and children on paroxetine compared with placebo, and are found across indications, and both on therapy and during withdrawal. The rates were highest in children with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), where the odds ratio of a hostile event was 17 times greater (95% confidence interval [CI], 2.22–130.0).

The Annex detailing case studies is particularly informative:

Annex: The Illustrative Medico-Legal Cases

Case 1

DS was a 60-year-old man with a history of five prior anxiety/depressive episodes. These did not involve suicidality, aggressive behaviour, or other serious disturbance. All prior episodes had resolved within several weeks. In 1990 DS had had an episode of depression, which his doctor treated with fluoxetine. He had a clear adverse reaction to fluoxetine involving agitation, restlessness and possible hallucinations, which worsened over a three-week period despite treatment with trazodone and propranolol that might have been expected to minimise the severity of such a reaction. After fluoxetine was discontinued DS responded rapidly to imipramine.

In 1998, a new family doctor, unaware of this adverse reaction to fluoxetine, prescribed paroxetine 20 mg to DS, for what was diagnosed as an anxiety disorder. Two days later having had, it is believed, two doses of medication, DS using a gun put three bullets each through the heads of his wife, his daughter who was visiting, and his nine-month-old granddaughter before killing himself.

************

If every school shooter in the last 20 years had been taking LSD would you want to keep prescribing it to children?

*************

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

If you have a good guess as to what is behind the following statistic the nation would love to hear it just as soon as you could let us all know (it's an urgent problem, isn't it?)


Not really. Compared to what?



************

If every school shooter in the last 20 years had been taking LSD would you want to keep prescribing it to children?

*************


Were all of these shooters wearing footwear? Did they have eyes? At least one arm? Had they all ever drank milk? Am I making compelling arguments? Or not?

[tod evans]

I'd like to see parents being responsible for their childrens health care, there are very few children who require prescription drugs to get through life.......

The fault lies 100% with parents who either can't or won't deal with their children effectively.

Now adults who take these drugs whether or not under a doctors supervision must be held accountable for their actions, taking a drug isn't a reason to excuse poor behavior.

I believe if the folks who take SSRI drugs had legal access to all drugs that very few, if any, would choose to continue their use.

Blaming "drugs" for a persons behavior is just as insane as blaming a gun for shooting someone..

[pochy1776]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimozide

My drug, Read it.

I have been taking this antipsychotic for years now. It hasn't killed me yet. Weight gain of course, but it's much better without tics.

By the while, People with Psychosis, who are manic or are schizophrenic are less likely to be violent and be the victims of violent. Something tells me, Lanza must not be crazy.

[pochy1776]

One thing about SSRIs is this... notice that the "gun control" bullshit keeps mentioning mental health issues.

What about this proposal... If you have EVER been prescribed drugs such as anti-depressants, or anti-psychotics, or bigfuckyouupamine, then you will be ineligible for legal firearms possession.

That's quite possibly where this could be headed. I don't like it. Being that "doctors" hand out SSRIs like candy, a very small percentage of those who have taken SSRIs shoot up schools.

So people like me can't get guns because we tick, or need drugs from killing ourselves. Seems reasonable.

[pochy1776]

No. Not virtually all medication is bad for you. No.

On the other hand, I believe that the anti depressants and other psychiatric drugs are the worst things you can give to somebody who is hurting or in pain, with some exceptions. My wife took a very mild anti-depressant when she went through a tough time, and it helped her. She got better, and stopped taking them. However, the bad cases are a whole different story. Some people who have never been suicidial or violent suddenly become so when they take these drugs, and the blame lies soley on the pharmaceuticals that create them, and sell them without fully warning about the negative side effects. The doctors don't closely monitor the patients, and the communities bear the weight of the pain when someone gets their chemicals out of wack.

But no, not all drugs are bad. I had high blood pressure a while back, took some blood pressure medicine and it fixed within a few weeks. Watched my diet since, and have never had blood pressure problems since.

So CVD drugs are okay but moderate to powerful dose SSRI's are bad? Good that you watched your diet, i have been doing it recently. Best thing ever done.

[pochy1776]

Chinese traditional medicine is still legal. That can fix most of their problems without side effects.

Sorry, i have used Chinese medicines before. Hell I lived in Hong Kong and Singapore. These things like Bloodletting and bitter water boiled with insects and leaves are nothing but placebos.

[tttppp]

Sorry, i have used Chinese medicines before. Hell I lived in Hong Kong and Singapore. These things like Bloodletting and bitter water boiled with insects and leaves are nothing but placebos.

Bloodletting is not CTM, I don't know where you went. Anyways, most of them suck, so you have to shop around. Just like you would a normal doctor.

[pochy1776]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MiYi_5BvhJg
Bloodletting is not CTM, I don't know where you went. Anyways, most of them suck, so you have to shop around. Just like you would a normal doctor.

[video=youtube;MiYi_5BvhJg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MiYi_5BvhJg

oops.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

So people like me can't get guns because we tick, or need drugs from killing ourselves. Seems reasonable.


Like I said... I don't like it. But more and more, it looks like this is where we are headed. I'm sure not leading the charge on that front.

Call out the medical establishment for what they are? Sure. Disarm people based on that corrupt industry? Isn't that something we should be discouraging? I do not expect they will stop prescribing such.

[pochy1776]

Bloodletting is not CTM, I don't know where you went. Anyways, most of them suck, so you have to shop around. Just like you would a normal doctor.

Physicians today don't give 1 hour sessions like natruopathic or homeopathic healers. (i refuse to call them Physicians.)

Medical school is a post college 4 year degree. Years 1-2 is a basic/advanced science course filled with anatomy, biochemistry, microbiology, pathology and pharmacology. You will then have to pass an exam called Step 1. Year 3 is when you go into clerkships, where you learn EVERY relevant medical field. Internal Medicine, General Surgery, Neurology, Obstetrics and Gynecology, Psychiatry and Pediatrics. Fourth Year, you will go through clinical electives or research projects. You will then have to Take Step 2 which includes Clinical Knowledge and Clinical Skills. It is only offered in five cities: Philidelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, and LA. You will then MATCH (thats right, your specialty is chosen for you, But you get interviewed at a job you like) into your program (Harvard and Johns Hopkins are the most prestigious)do a 1 year internship and then a 3-7 year Residency. Most are completed in 4-5 years. During then, you work your ass off to prove to everyone else that you are a competent doctor. You will then have to pass a board exam (Step 3.) After a few years in working your ass off, You will then take the Board Certification Exam given by your State Board and then your Specialty Exams Given by your Specialty Board. You will complete Residency and try to get a job as an attending, where you will have to be responsible for teaching and being competent. Remember, you will have to do recertification every few years or so. Unless you get grandfathered in. So, This is how a doctor is trained. Its Not sodamn easy as everyone thinks it is. If you want to reform medicine or make it better. Get your credentials (as i am currently) and reform it. As you see it sucks being a doctor. I'm still surprised people want to do it.

[pochy1776]

I'm Just pissed i can't get a gun because i take a Anti-Psychotic.

[tttppp]

Physicians today don't give 1 hour sessions like natruopathic or homeopathic healers. (i refuse to call them Physicians.)

Medical school is a post college 4 year degree. Years 1-2 is a basic/advanced science course filled with anatomy, biochemistry, microbiology, pathology and pharmacology. You will then have to pass an exam called Step 1. Year 3 is when you go into clerkships, where you learn EVERY relevant medical field. Internal Medicine, General Surgery, Neurology, Obstetrics and Gynecology, Psychiatry and Pediatrics. Fourth Year, you will go through clinical electives or research projects. You will then have to Take Step 2 which includes Clinical Knowledge and Clinical Skills. It is only offered in five cities: Philidelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, and LA. You will then MATCH (thats right, your specialty is chosen for you, But you get interviewed at a job you like) into your program (Harvard and Johns Hopkins are the most prestigious)do a 1 year internship and then a 3-7 year Residency. Most are completed in 4-5 years. During then, you work your ass off to prove to everyone else that you are a competent doctor. You will then have to pass a board exam (Step 3.) After a few years in working your ass off, You will then take the Board Certification Exam given by your State Board and then your Specialty Exams Given by your Specialty Board. You will complete Residency and try to get a job as an attending, where you will have to be responsible for teaching and being competent. Remember, you will have to do recertification every few years or so. Unless you get grandfathered in. So, This is how a doctor is trained. Its Not sodamn easy as everyone thinks it is. If you want to reform medicine or make it better. Get your credentials (as i am currently) and reform it. As you see it sucks being a doctor. I'm still surprised people want to do it.


I am not sure what your point is. Wasting time in school doesnt make you better than any qualified acupuncturist. And part of the reason acupuncturists dont waste that much time in school is because their profession doesnt make up new bullshit drugs every year that do nothing. CTM has worked for thousands of years, so there is no need to change it. Plus acupuncturists get much better as they get more practice, many of them learning as kids from their parents. Something doctors dont get a chance to do.

[tttppp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MiYi_5BvhJg

[video=youtube;MiYi_5BvhJg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MiYi_5BvhJg

oops.

I cant view the vidieo but that looks more like suction cups, not blood letting. CTM values blood, unlike doctors who cant do anything without a blood test.

[pochy1776]

Yeah, Because your blood tells A LOT about your current condition. Blood tests are to
Evaluate how well organs—such as the kidneys, liver, thyroid, and heart—are working
Diagnose diseases and conditions such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, diabetes, anemia (uh-NEE-me-eh), and coronary heart disease
Find out whether you have risk factors for heart disease
Check whether medicines you're taking are working
Assess how well your blood is clotting

[pochy1776]

I am not sure what your point is. Wasting time in school doesnt make you better than any qualified acupuncturist. And part of the reason acupuncturists dont waste that much time in school is because their profession doesnt make up new bullshit drugs every year that do nothing. CTM has worked for thousands of years, so there is no need to change it. Plus acupuncturists get much better as they get more practice, many of them learning as kids from their parents. Something doctors dont get a chance to do.
Really? Waste? The Acupuncture School does nothing for science education, Maybe some good anatomy. Medical school is learning how to apply hard science into healing. Its both an art and a science. The first 2 years equal hard ass work in the lab AND classroom time. The "waste" is how one becomes Scientifically AND Medically literate. The system is to breed scientific literacy and evidence based application.AND making sure of Quality control. Thats why there is testing, CME's and conventions for researchers and practitioners. Are there flaws. Yes. MEdicine is too regulated, corporatist and in bed with State governments. Does that mean it should be discredited. No. HARD Science is probably the best way to evaluate and see life. Aside from libertarianism.

[cbrons]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpinCRaAQOk

Throwing this into some of their faces has lead to some interesting responses.

Mostly, it's just ignored:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/32/womancoveringherearshea.jpg

Sometimes they actually start bashing MM, then total confusion sets in and they give up.

Here's their numero uno Gun Grabber Extraordinaire saying -- almost shouting-- that it might be the DRUGS!
They Can't Handle The Truth!! Even when it's rubbed into their filthy hypocritical faces.

Edit- Add this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAO5_Hk06Mc

That's Robert F. Kennedy's 9th kid Douglas Harriman Kennedy!
Double Fun!

Where did Michael Moore get his M.D. or Pharm.D?

[pochy1776]

Where did Michael Moore get his M.D. or Pharm.D?

He was not smart enough to go. OR his MCAT must have been 11.

[tttppp]

Yeah, Because your blood tells A LOT about your current condition. Blood tests are to
Evaluate how well organs—such as the kidneys, liver, thyroid, and heart—are working
Diagnose diseases and conditions such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, diabetes, anemia (uh-NEE-me-eh), and coronary heart disease
Find out whether you have risk factors for heart disease
Check whether medicines you're taking are working
Assess how well your blood is clotting

Most of that can be done in CTM without checking your blood. Plus they can diagnose chronic diseases way better than some bullshit blood test. Not to mention CTM has cures for most of those problems while doctors can do nothing but give your disease a name.

[tttppp]

Really? Waste? The Acupuncture School does nothing for science education, Maybe some good anatomy. Medical school is learning how to apply hard science into healing. Its both an art and a science. The first 2 years equal hard ass work in the lab AND classroom time. The "waste" is how one becomes Scientifically AND Medically literate. The system is to breed scientific literacy and evidence based application.AND making sure of Quality control. Thats why there is testing, CME's and conventions for researchers and practitioners. Are there flaws. Yes. MEdicine is too regulated, corporatist and in bed with State governments. Does that mean it should be discredited. No. HARD Science is probably the best way to evaluate and see life. Aside from libertarianism.

Western medicine is there if you have a broken bone or heart attack. Its almost completely worthless for fixing chronic diseases.

[american.swan]

I have a question about this.
Do these scary drugs include bipolar disorder drugs? I know a couple people who have serious problems with anger.

[pochy1776]

Western medicine is there if you have a broken bone or heart attack. Its almost completely worthless for fixing chronic diseases.

Did you even read my post? Or are you so in love with unregulated (not always a good thing) QUACKS whose science education only include high school biology.

No. Not Cancer, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, Hypertension, Osteoporosis, Sickle Cell Anemia, Cerebral Palsy and Celiacs. I am starting a lot of people take medicine for granted. CANCER MORTALITY IS DOWN, Schizophrenia can now be fixed (Most mental hospitals are now empty because of the wonders of SSRI's and antipsychotics. Talk to a damn mental patient pre drug and post drug), Those with Celiacs can now live like normal people, People can be obese and have a healthy heart,I don't tick anymore.

[pochy1776]

I have a question about this.
Do these scary drugs include bipolar disorder drugs? I know a couple people who have serious problems with anger. At least they aren't Manic.

[cbrons]

Do you have evidence Adam Lanza was on prescription drugs?


There is very little evidence of him in the past couple years. Multiple stories have been run saying he was medicated.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/15/1170258/--He-was-on-medication

Multiple stories from who? A single neighbor said he was medicated for personality disorder? Huh?? Which one??? Why?? I need something more solid. And even if he had a prescription for something, I wanna know just how compliant he was. And even if he was on an SSRI and he was taking it regularly, that is far from evidence that the drug itself caused him to commit mass murder.

I'm interviewing Dr. Peter Breggin on my radio show next Saturday to talk about this, among other psychotropic drug-related things.


This is like blaming diet sodas for causing obesity. People with mental illness are more likely to take antidepressants. So when a crazy person does something crazy, chances are good that he was taking one of these drugs. Correlation does not imply causation. The vast majority of people taking these drugs have mild depression and don't do crazy things. This is the same logic liberals use to blame guns for crime.

word for word what I said on my show yesterday in the last 8-9 minutes.

[pochy1776]

Multiple stories from who? A single neighbor said he was medicated for personality disorder? Huh?? Which one??? Why?? I need something more solid. And even if he had a prescription for something, I wanna know just how compliant he was. And even if he was on an SSRI and he was taking it regularly, that is far from evidence that the drug itself caused him to commit mass murder.

I'm interviewing Dr. Peter Breggin on my radio show next Saturday to talk about this, among other psychotropic drug-related things.



word for word what I said on my show yesterday in the last 8-9 minutes.
The Quack who thinks therapy can fix everything and abdicated from Harvard to go to SUNY? Yeah, Szasz must have done a good job.

[cbrons]

Not to mention CTM has cures for most of those problems while doctors can do nothing but give your disease a name.

CTM is...?

[pochy1776]

Most of that can be done in CTM without checking your blood. Plus they can diagnose chronic diseases way better than some bullshit blood test. Not to mention CTM has cures for most of those problems while doctors can do nothing but give your disease a name.

Hmm......
Chemotherapy is used to shrink tumors before they metastasize, If it doesn't work, they do surgery. IN MOST CASES, it works. These "bullshit blood tests" save lives. Please enlighten me on how CTM can diagnose and cure these diseases.

Western Medicine recommends
Diabetics- Eat less sugar and fat. Eat smaller portions, exercise and check blood sugar if your a Type-1.
HIV/AIDS- Take a prescription drug, get treatment at a hospital regularly. People used to die (kinda a good thing if you hate humanity.)
Coronary Heart disease- Prescription after Diet and Exercise don't work. Surgery.
Anemia-Blood transfusions

Corticosteroids or other medicines that suppress the immune system

Erythropoietin, a medicine that helps your bone marrow make more blood cells

Supplements of iron, vitamin B12, folic acid, or other vitamins and minerals

[pochy1776]

CTM is...?
Chinese traditional medicine.

[pochy1776]

Most of that can be done in CTM without checking your blood. Plus they can diagnose chronic diseases way better than some bullshit blood test. Not to mention CTM has cures for most of those problems while doctors can do nothing but give your disease a name.

I will concede one point. Naturopathic, Alternative or Complimentary Medicine practitioners treat their patients better than most physicians. Most of these practitioners sped at least an hour taking a good detailed history. They also explain their methods more often and in better laymen terms. Its almost a source of psychotherapy.

[Mach]

Sorry to interupt your bickering but, for the people that say that SSRI's are no different than... guns don't kill people, people do.... is ridiculous, those drugs are hardcore personality fluctuators, they literally change the way that brain works.

[Natural Citizen]

I'm interviewing Dr. Peter Breggin on my radio show next Saturday to talk about this, among other psychotropic drug-related things.




What time?

[pochy1776]

Yeah, Read PubMed articles on SSRI's they aren;t so big pharma is good. I take an antipsychotic, i haven't killed anyone yet.

I am pissed that there are some people here that want to ban psych med patients from getting guns or enjoying the same freedoms that the Ron Paul supporters espouse. I want to live in a Ron Paul America Where ANYBODY of sound mind can get a gun. If i can't get a gun because i take an antipsychotic, then F*** YOU ALL, Because you are no less evil than the leftist who peddle gun control.
I never shot a gun in my life, i plan to soon.

[cbrons]

Chinese Traditional medicine?

And you are saying this witchcraft is better than a hospital outfitted with the latest equipment and people with 12+ years of evidence-based medical education?

Are you on an SSRI? I think you may be having a rare bit of serotonin syndrome w/ strong delusions.

[pochy1776]

Chinese Traditional medicine?

And you are saying this witchcraft is better than a hospital outfitted with the latest equipment and people with 12+ years of evidence-based medical education?

Are you on an SSRI? I think you may be having a rare bit of serotonin syndrome w/ strong delusions.

Don't insult like i have been doing. I suck. I am on a Antipsychotic called Pimozide. Purpose is to treat Schizophrenics and Tourettes. I have Serious Tourettes.

[Mach]

Multiple stories from who? A single neighbor said he was medicated for personality disorder? Huh?? Which one??? Why?? I need something more solid. And even if he had a prescription for something, I wanna know just how compliant he was. And even if he was on an SSRI and he was taking it regularly, that is far from evidence that the drug itself caused him to commit mass murder.

I'm interviewing Dr. Peter Breggin on my radio show next Saturday to talk about this, among other psychotropic drug-related things.



word for word what I said on my show yesterday in the last 8-9 minutes.

Set up a video camera for interviews, and upload to YouTube...... ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YPx95sk7k1U

[pochy1776]

Chinese Traditional medicine?

And you are saying this witchcraft is better than a hospital outfitted with the latest equipment and people with 12+ years of evidence-based medical education?

Are you on an SSRI? I think you may be having a rare bit of serotonin syndrome w/ strong delusions.

I Keep telling them. Maybe we need to espouse how Harvard or Johns Hopkins Interns could write a better licensing test than the State government.

[tttppp]

Chinese Traditional medicine?

And you are saying this witchcraft is better than a hospital outfitted with the latest equipment and people with 12+ years of evidence-based medical education?

Are you on an SSRI? I think you may be having a rare bit of serotonin syndrome w/ strong delusions.

CTM is not witchcraft. Perhaps you should only reply to topics you know something about.

[tttppp]

I will concede one point. Naturopathic, Alternative or Complimentary Medicine practitioners treat their patients better than most physicians. Most of these practitioners sped at least an hour taking a good detailed history. They also explain their methods more often and in better laymen terms. Its almost a source of psychotherapy.

Fair enough. But CTM is at a whole another level than naturopaths and other alternative medicine. They really mastered the art of healing people, although like I said before, many of them a quacks too. My acupuncturist gave a free initial diagnosis and I rarely had to wait more than 5 minutes for acupuncture. I don't need to tell you how doctors treat you.

[pochy1776]

CTM is not witchcraft. Perhaps you should only reply to topics you know something about.

I know a little bit about CTM and a little bit about Medicine. I am not ignorant. I lived in places where they used CTM. People aren't any healthier there.

[pochy1776]

Please tell me, I go to a good FP.

[tttppp]

I know a little bit about CTM and a little bit about Medicine. I am not ignorant. I lived in places where they used CTM. People aren't any healthier there.

Read my post where I pointed out that most of them are not competent either. But there are a percentage that are amazing.

[pochy1776]

Read my post where I pointed out that most of them are not competent either. But there are a percentage that are amazing.
Link? please?

[tttppp]

Link? please?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?401197-Guns-don-t-kill-people-prescription-SSRI-s*-do./page4

[Peace Piper]

The Quack who thinks therapy can fix everything and abdicated from Harvard to go to SUNY? Yeah, Szasz must have done a good job.

I've come to expect this kind of smear from some of the sites I visit, not so much here.

Let's take a quick look at "quack" Dr. Peter Breggin, shall we?


Peter Roger Breggin (born May 11, 1936)[1] is an American psychiatrist and critic of biological psychiatry and psychiatric medication. In his books, he advocates replacing psychiatry's use of drugs and electroconvulsive therapy with humanistic approaches, such as psychotherapy, education, and broader human services.[2]

Breggin is the author of many books which are critical of modern psychiatry, including Toxic Psychiatry, Talking Back to Prozac and Talking Back to Ritalin. His most recent book, Brain-Disabling Treatments in Psychiatry, discusses medication spellbinding (in which patients who are doing worse after treatment fail to see that they are doing worse or recognize why),[3] the adverse effects of drugs and electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), the hazards of diagnosing and medicating children, the psychopharmaceutical complex, and guidelines for psychotherapy and counseling.

Breggin now lives in the Finger Lakes Region of Central New York and practices psychiatry in Ithaca, New York.

Education and early career

Breggin graduated from Harvard College with honors,[4] and attended Case Western Reserve Medical School. His postgraduate training in psychiatry began with an internship year of mixed medicine and psychiatry at the State University of New York (SUNY) Upstate Medical Center in Syracuse. Breggin completed a first year of psychiatric residency at Harvard's Massachusetts Mental Health Center in Boston, where he was a teaching fellow at Harvard Medical School, and finished his final two years of psychiatric residency at SUNY. This was followed by a two-year staff appointment to the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), where he worked to build and staff mental health centers and education. Breggin has taught at several universities, obtaining faculty appointments to the Washington School of Psychiatry, the Johns Hopkins University Department of Counseling, and the George Mason University Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution. Breggin has worked in a private practice since 1968.

Breggin is a life member of the American Psychiatric Association and an editor for several scientific journals. His opinions have been portrayed both favorably and unfavorably in the media, including Time Magazine[5] and the New York Times.[6][7] He has appeared as a guest on many radio and television shows, including 60 Minutes, 20/20, Nightline, and numerous network news reports.[citation needed]

Research and publications

Since 1964, Breggin has published on his major topic of interest, clinical psychopharmacology. He wrote dozens of other articles, several book chapters, and more than twenty books. Many of Breggin's more recent articles are published in the peer-reviewed journal he co-founded with David Cohen and Steven Baldwin, Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, and in The International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine as well as in other scientific journals such as Primary Psychiatry (2006),[8] and the Journal of Humanistic Psychology (2000).[9] Breggin wrote his first peer-reviewed articles in the arena of psychopharmacology in 1964 and 1965.[10][11] Many of his published articles discuss psychiatric medication, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) drug approval process, the evaluation of clinical trials, and the ethics of psychiatric practice. According to the Web of Science, Breggin's work has been cited by more than 700 publications, with an h-index of 20.[12]

In 1971, Breggin founded the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology (ICSPP)www.psychintegrity.org, a nonprofit research and educational network. The center is concerned with the impact of mental health theory and practices upon individual well-being, personal freedom, and family and community values. As of July 2008, the center has a board of directors composed of 27 psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, counselors and other professionals in the mental health field.[13] The center holds annual scientific conferences that are open to the public. In 1999, the Center began to publish Ethical Human Sciences and Services (EHSS), which was later renamed Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry. The peer-reviewed journal is published by Springer Publishing Company (no affiliation with Springer Verlag[14]), and "is the official journal of the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry".[15] The stated goal of EHSS is to, "raise the level of scientific knowledge and ethical discourse, while empowering professionals who are devoted to principled human sciences and services unsullied by professional and economic interests."[16] According to the Scopus database, since its inception the most citations it has received in a year is 13.[17] In 2002, Breggin encouraged younger professionals to take over the leadership of ICSPP and Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry.[citation needed] Peter Breggin is not currently on the Board of Directors of ICSPP, does not participate in board meetings, and has no role within the organization.

While he's not conducted clinical drug trials, Breggin's critiques[18] and reviews[2] of the scientific literature are published in peer-reviewed journals such as Primary Psychiatry,[19] Brain and Cognition,[20] Mind and Behavior,[21] and the Archives of General Psychiatry.[22][23][24][25]

Conventional psychiatry

A large portion of Breggin's work concentrates on the iatrogenic effects (negative side effects) of psychiatric medications, arguing that the harmful side effects typically outweigh any benefit. Breggin also argues that psychosocial interventions are almost always superior in treating mental illness. He has argued against psychoactive drugs, electroshock (ECT), psychosurgery, coercive involuntary treatment, and biological theories of psychiatry.

According to Breggin, the pharmaceutical industry propagates disinformation which is accepted by unsuspecting doctors, saying "the psychiatrist accepts the bad science that establishes the existence of all these mental diseases in the first place. From there it’s just a walk down the street to all the drugs as remedies". He points out problems with conflicts-of-interest (such as the financial relationships between drug companies, researchers, and the American Psychiatric Association). Breggin states psychiatric drugs, "...are all, every class of them, highly dangerous". He asserts: "If neuroleptics were used to treat anyone other than mental patients, they would have been banned a long time ago. If their use wasn't supported by powerful interest groups, such as the pharmaceutical industry and organized psychiatry, they would be rarely used at all. Meanwhile, the neuroleptics have produced the worst epidemic of neurological disease in history. At the least, their use should be severely curtailed."[26]

In his book, Reclaiming Our Children, he calls for the ethical treatment of children. Breggin argues that the mistreatment of children is a national (U.S.) tragedy, including psychiatric diagnoses and prescription of drugs for children whose needs were not otherwise met. He especially objects to prescribing psychiatric medications to children, arguing that it distracts from their real needs in the family and schools, and is potentially harmful to their developing brains and nervous systems.[27]

ADHD and Ritalin

The New York Times has labeled Breggin as the nation's best-known Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) critic. As early as 1991 he sardonically coined the acronym DADD, stating, "...most so-called ADHD children are not receiving sufficient attention from their fathers who are separated from the family, too preoccupied with work and other things, or otherwise impaired in their ability to parent. In many cases the appropriate diagnosis is Dad Attention Deficit Disorder (DADD)". Breggin has written two books specifically on the topic entitled, Talking Back to Ritalin and The Ritalin Factbook. In these books he has made controversial claims, such as "Ritalin 'works' by producing malfunctions in the brain rather than by improving brain function. This is the only way it works".[28]

Together with Fred Baughman, Breggin testified about ADHD to the United States Congress. In Congress Breggin claimed "that there were no scientific studies validating ADHD", that children diagnosed with ADHD needed "discipline and better instruction" rather than psychiatric drugs, and that therapeutic stimulants "are the most addictive drugs known in medicine today."[29] Baughman and Breggin were also the major critics in a PBS Frontline TV series about ADHD entitled 'Medicating Kids'.[30] In an interview during this time period he referred to ADHD as a fiction. This increased critical attention to Ritalin resulted in the Ritalin class action lawsuits against Novartis, the American Psychiatric Association (APA), and CHADD in which the plaintiffs sued for fraud. Specifically, they charged that the defendants had conspired to invent and promote the disorder ADHD to create a highly profitable market for the drug Ritalin. All five lawsuits were dismissed or withdrawn before they went to trial.

Breggin has been very critical of psychologist Russell Barkley's work on ADHD claiming that he exaggerates the benefits of stimulants and minimizes their hazards.[31]

SSRI antidepressants

In the early 1990s, Breggin suggested there were problems with the methodology in the research of SSRI antidepressants. As early as 1991 in Talking Back to Prozac, he warned that Prozac was causing violence, suicide and mania. Breggin elaborated on this theme in many subsequent books and articles about newer antidepressants. In 2005, the FDA began requiring black box warnings on SSRIs, warning of an association between SSRI use and suicidal behavior in children,[32] and later extended it to young adults. New general warnings were added along with the aforementioned black box warnings. These warnings confirmed many of the adverse effects first emphasized by Breggin in Toxic Psychiatry with specific mentions by the FDA of drug-induced "hostility," "irritability," and "mania". In 2006, the FDA expanded the warnings to include adults taking Paxil, which is associated with a higher risk of suicidal behavior as compared to a placebo.[33]

In contrast to Breggin's Talking Back to Prozac, which was largely ignored by the press on its release, Prozac Backlash, a critique of SSRIs by Harvard psychiatrist Joseph Glenmullen was widely praised by high-profile media sources.[34] Breggin complained about this in a subsequent book, The Antidepressant Fact Book:
"Glenmullen's (2000) scientific analysis of how SSRIs can cause suicide, violence, and other behavioral aberrations is essentially the same as my earlier detailed analyses... my hundreds of media appearances, and my testimony in court cases that Glenmullen also had available. Glenmullen also interviewed my wife and coauthor Ginger Breggin for his book and was sent research documents from our files that he was otherwise unable to obtain. Disappointingly, in his book, Glenmullen literally expurgates our contribution, never mentioning my origination of the ideas he was espousing and never acknowledging my efforts.... Nonetheless, his book provides a service...."[35]

In 1994, Breggin said that Eli Lilly and Company (maker of the antidepressant Prozac) attempted to discredit him and his book Talking Back to Prozac by linking him to the Church of Scientology and labeling his views as "Neo-Scientology."[36] Breggin denied any connection to Scientology.[36] Breggin later clarified that he was still in agreement with some of CCHR's anti-psychiatric views, supporting Tom Cruise's public stance against psychiatry.[37]

ECT

Breggin has written several books and scientific articles critical of electroconvulsive therapy. He claims that "...the damage produces delirium so severe that patients can't fully experience depression or other higher mental functions during the several weeks after electroshock". He was one of nineteen speakers at the 1985 NIH Consensus Development Conference on ECT. The Consensus panel (of which Breggin was not a member) found that ECT could be a useful therapy in some carefully defined cases.[38]

Expert witness

On November 20, 2012, a New York State Supreme Court jury awarded $1.5 million malpractice verdict to the family of a man who committed suicide while taking psychiatric drugs, including antidepressants. [39] Dr Breggin was the expert witness for the family. [40]

On September 16, 2011 in Winnipeg, Canada, a Provincial judge cited Breggin’s testimony in concluding that Prozac caused a sixteen-year-old boy to knife a friend to death, noting that, "Dr. Breggin's explanation of the effect Prozac was having on C.J.P.'s behavior both before that day and in committing an impulsive, inexplicable violent act that day corresponds with the evidence."[41] About the boy, Judge Robert Heinrichs determined, "His basic normalcy now further confirms he no longer poses a risk of violence to anyone and that his mental deterioration and resulting violence would not have taken place without exposure to Prozac."[42]

In South Carolina, Breggin testified on behalf of Peggy S. Salters, a psychiatric nurse who sued her doctors and Palmetto Baptist Hospital after ECT left her incapacitated in 2000. A jury found in favor of her and awarded her $635,177 in actual damages.[43]

Breggin testified as an expert witness in the Wesbecker case (Fentress et al., 1994), a lawsuit against Eli Lilly, makers of Prozac. Ultimately, the jury found for Eli Lilly. Breggin later claimed that this was because the plaintiffs and defendants had secretly settled behind closed doors.[44] The Supreme Court of Kentucky concluded that the Wesbecker trial had been secretly settled by Eli Lilly before going to the jury in return for defendants presenting a weakened case that was bound to lose. Trial Judge Potter was empowered by the Kentucky Supreme Court to change the verdict from a jury verdict in favor of Eli Lilly to "settled with prejudice" by Eli Lilly. [45][46][47]

Breggin alleges that pharmaceutical manufacturers, particularly Eli Lilly, have committed ad hominem attacks upon him in the form of linking him to Scientology campaigns against psychiatric drugs. Breggin acknowledges that he did work with Scientology starting in 1972, but states that by 1974 he "found [himself] opposed to Scientology's values, agenda, and tactics", and in consequence "stopped all cooperative efforts in 1974 and publicly declared [his] criticism of the group in a letter published in Reason."[48] Breggin has also stated that he has a personal reason to dislike Scientology: His wife, Ginger, was once a Scientologist,[48][49] and when they first met she was urged by other Scientologists to have no association with him because he was not also.

Several judges have questioned Breggin's credibility as an expert witness. For example, a Maryland judge in a medical malpractice case in 1995 said, "I believe that his bias in this case is blinding... he was mistaken in a lot of the factual basis for which he expressed his opinion."[50] In that same year a Virginia judge excluded Breggin's testimony stating, "This court finds that the evidence of Peter Breggin, as a purported expert, fails nearly all particulars under the standard set forth in Daubert and its progeny.... Simply put, the Court believes that Dr. Breggin's opinions do not rise to the level of an opinion based on 'good science.'"[51][52] [53]

In 2002, Breggin was hired as an expert witness by a survivor of the Columbine High School massacre in a case against the makers of an anti-depressant drug. In his report, Breggin failed to mention the Columbine incident or one of the killers, instead focusing on the medication taken by the other, "...Eric Harris was suffering from a substance induced (Luvox-induced) mood disorder with depressive and manic features that had reached a psychotic level of violence and suicide. Absent persistent exposure to Luvox, Eric Harris probably would not have committed violence and suicide."[54] However, according to The Denver Post, the judge of the case "...was visibly angry that the experts failed to view evidence prior to their depositions" even though they had months to do so. The evidence would have included hundreds of documents including a significant amount of video and audio tape that the killers had recorded. The judge stated, "...lawyers will be free to attack them on the basis of the evidence they haven't seen and haven't factored into their opinions."[55] The lawsuit was eventually dropped with the stipulation that the makers of Luvox donate $10,000 to the American Cancer Society.[54]

In 2005, the Philadelphia County Court of Common Pleas disqualified the testimony of Breggin because it did not meet the scientific rigor established by the Frye standard. The judge stated "...Breggin spends 14 pages critiquing the treatment provided not because it ran counter to the acceptable standards of care, but because it ran counter to Breggin's personal ideas and ideologies of what the standards ought to be.”[56]

Criticism

Due to his outspoken criticisms of many aspects of psychiatry, Breggin has become a controversial figure who is regularly at odds with the mental health establishment.[57] He uses terms like "fraud" to describe the biological and genetic theories of mental disorders. He is critical of the medications used to treat these disorders, and the political process that determines the labels used for diagnosing mental disorders. He has also consistently warned about conflict of interest problems.[49] These claims often challenge accepted standards of care within the mental health field and have led to highly critical rebuttals.[58]

In 1987, NAMI brought a complaint against Breggin with licensure board of the State of Maryland. NAMI was upset about remarks he made on The Oprah Winfrey Show on April 2, 1987. On the TV show, Breggin stated that mental health clients should judge their clinicians in terms of their empathy and support; if they failed to show interest in them and tried to prescribe drugs during the first session, he advised such clients to seek assistance elsewhere. He also pointed out the iatrogenic effects of neuroleptic drugs. He was defended by a diverse group of psychiatrists and others who defended his right to publicly state his critical opinion.[6] Breggin was cleared of any wrongdoing by the Maryland medical board, which thanked him for his contribution to mental health in Maryland.[7] Time magazine has noted that other mental health professionals worry that "Breggin reinforces the myth that mental illness is not real, that you wouldn't be ill if you'd pull yourself up by the bootstraps...his views stop people from getting treatment. They could cost a life."[5] However, despite this concern, an emphasis on a purely biological explanation of mental illness has actually been associated with an increase in stigma instead of a decrease by at least two studies.[59][60]


Professional Books
Breggin, Peter R. (2012). Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal: A Guide for Prescribers, Therapists, Patients and their Families, New York: Springer Publishing Company.
Breggin, P.R. (2009). Wow, I’m an American! How to Live Like Our Nation’s Heroic Founders. Lake Edge Press. ISBN 978-0-9824560-1-9.
Breggin, P.R. (2008). Medication Madness: A Psychiatrist Exposes the Dangers of Mood-Altering Medications. New York: St. Martin's Press.
Breggin, P.R. (2008). Brain-Disabling Treatments in Psychiatry: Drugs, Electroshock and the Psychopharmaceutical Complex, Second Edition. New York: Springer Publishing Company.
Breggin, P.R. and Cohen, D. (2007). Your Drug May Be Your Problem: How and Why to Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications, Second Edition. Cambridge MA: Perseus Books.
Breggin, P.R. Breggin, G.R., and Bemak, F. (Editors) (2002). Dimensions of Empathic Therapy. New York: Springer Publishing Company.
Breggin, P.R. (2002). The Ritalin Fact Book: What Your Doctor Won't Tell You. Cambridge: Perseus Books.
Breggin, P.R. (2001). The Anti-Depressant Fact Book: What Your Doctor Won't Tell You About Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa, and Luvox. Cambridge: Perseus Books.
Breggin, P.R. (2001). Talking Back to Ritalin: What Doctors Aren't Telling You About Stimulants and ADHD. Revised. Cambridge: Perseus Books.
Breggin, P.R. (2000). Reclaiming Our Children: A Healing Solution for a Nation in Crisis. Cambridge MA: Perseus Books.
Breggin, P.R. and Cohen, D. (1999) Your Drug May Be Your Problem: How and Why To Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications Cambridge, MA: Perseus Books.
Breggin, P.R. and Ginger, G.R. (1998). The war against children of color. Psychiatry Targets Inner City Youth. Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press.
Breggin, P.R. (1997). Brain-Disabling Treatments in Psychiatry: Drugs, Electroshock and the Role of the FDA New York: Springer Publishing Company.
Breggin, P.R. (1997; new paperback edition 2006). The Heart of Being Helpful: Empathy and the Creation of a Healing Presence. New York: Spinger Publishing Company.
Breggin, P.R. (senior editor) Psychosocial Approaches to Deeply Disturbed Persons (1996) New York: Haworth Press.
Breggin, P.R. and Breggin, G.R. (1994). The War Against Children: How the Drugs, Programs, and Theories of the Psychiatric Establishment Are Threatening America's Children with a Medical 'Cure' for Violence New York: St. Martin's Press.
Breggin, P.R. and Breggin, G. R. (1994). Talking Back To Prozac: What Doctors Aren't Telling You About Today's Most Controversial Drug. New York: St. Martin's Press.
Breggin, P.R. (1992). Beyond Conflict: From Self-Help and Psychotherapy to Peacemaking. New York: St. Martin's Press.
Breggin, P.R. (1991). Toxic Psychiatry: Why Therapy, Empathy and Love Must Replace the Drugs, Electroshock, and Biochemical Theories of the "New Psychiatry" New York: St. Martin's Press.
Breggin, Peter R. Psychiatric Drugs: Hazards to the Brain (1983). New York: Springer Publishing Company.
Breggin, Peter R. Electroshock: Its Brain-Disabling Effects(1979). New York: Springer Publishing Company.
Breggin, Peter R., with co-authors Carter Umbarger, James Dalsimer, Andrew Morrison (1962). College Students in a Mental Hospital: Contribution to the Social Rehabilitation of the Mentally Ill New York: Grune & Stratton.
[edit]
Selected articles
Breggin, P.R. (2011). Psychiatric drug-induced Chronic Brain Impairment (CBI): Implications for long-term tratment with psychiatric medication. International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine, 23, 193-200. PMID: 22156084
Breggin, P.R. (2010). Antidepressant-induced suicide, violence, and mania: Risks for military personnel." Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 12, 111-121.
Breggin, P.R., Marks D., Braslow D. (2008) Homicidal ideation causally related to therapeutic medications. Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 10, 134-145.
Breggin, P.R., Breggin, G.R. (2008) Exposure to SSRI antidepressants in utero causes birth defects, neonatal withdrawal symptoms and brain damage. Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 10, 5-9, 2008.
Breggin, P.R. (2007) ECT damages the brain: Disturbing news for patients and shock doctors alike. Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 9, 83-86.
Breggin, P.R. (2006). Court filing makes public my previously suppressed analysis of Paxil's effects. Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 8, 77–84. PMID 16862720
Breggin, P.R. (2006). How GlaxoSmithKline suppressed data on Paxil-induced akathisia: Implications for suicide and violence. Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 8, 91–100.
Breggin, P.R. (2006). Drug company suppressed data on paroxetine-induced stimulation: Implications for violence and suicide.” Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 8, 255–263.
Breggin, P.R. (2006). Intoxication anosognosia: The spellbinding effect of psychiatric drugs. Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry, 8, 201–215. Simultaneously published in the International Journal of Risk and Safety and Medicine, 19, 3–15, 2007.
Breggin, P.R. (2004). Recent U.S., Canadian and British regulatory agency actions concerning antidepressant-induced harm to self and others: A review and analysis. International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine,16, 247–259.
Breggin, P.R. (2003). Suicidality, violence and mania caused by selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs): A review and analysis. International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine, 16, 31–49.
Breggin, P.R. (2000). The NIMH multimodal study of treatment for Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder: A critical analysis. International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine, 13,15–22.
Breggin, P.R. (2000). What psychologists and psychotherapists need to know about ADHD and stimulants. Changes: An International Journal of Psychology and Psychotherapy,18,13–23.
Breggin, P.R. (1999). Psychostimulants in the treatment of children diagnosed with ADHD: Risks and mechanism of action. International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine, 12, 3–35.
Breggin, P.R. (1999). Psychiatry's reliance on coercion. Ethical Human Sciences and Services, 1(2), 115–8. PMID 15586456
Breggin, P.R. (1998). Psychotherapy in emotional crises without resort to psychiatric medication. The Humanistic Psychologist, 25, 2–14.
Breggin, P.R. (1998). Analysis of adverse behavioral effects of benzodiazepines with a discussion on drawing scientific conclusions from the FDA's spontaneous reporting system. Journal of Mind and Behavior, 19(1), 21–50.
Breggin, P.R. (1998). Electroshock: Scientific, ethical, and political issues. International Journal of Risk & Safety In Medicine 11:5–40, 1998.
Breggin, P.R. (1994). Should the use of neuroleptics be severely limited? Controversial Issues in Mental Health, edited by S.A. Kirk and S.D. Einbinder, pp. 146–152.
Breggin, P.R. (1993). Parallels Between Neuroleptic Effects and Lethargic Encephalitis: The Production of Dyskinesias and Cognitive disorders. Brain and Cognition 23:8–27, 1993. PMID 8105824
Breggin, P.R. (1992). A Case of Fluoxetine-induced Stimulant Side Effects with Suicidal Ideation Associated with a Possible Withdrawal Syndrome (‘Crashing’). International Journal of Risk & Safety in Medicine 3:325–328, 1992
Breggin, P.R. (1990). Brain damage, dementia and persistent cognitive dysfunction associated with neuroleptic drugs: Evidence, etiology, implications. Journal of Mind and Behavior, 11(4), 425–464.
Breggin, P.R. (1986). Neuropathology and cognitive dysfunction From ECT (Electroconvulsive/"shock" therapy). Psychopharmacology Bulletin , 22, 476–479.
Breggin, P.R. (1982). The return of lobotomy and psychosurgery. Reprinted in R.B. Edwards (ed.): Psychiatry and Ethics. Buffalo, Prometheus Books, 1982. Published earlier in Quality of Health Care-Human Experimentation: Hearings Before Senator Edward Kennedy's Subcommittee on Health, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C., US Government Printing Office, 1973.
Breggin, P.R. (1982). Coercion of voluntary patients in an open hospital. In R.B. Edwards(ed): Psychiatry and Ethics. Prometheus Books, 1982. Reprinted from Breggin, P.R. (1964). Archives of General Psychiatry, 10, 173–181. PMID 14081584
Breggin, P.R. (1981). Madness is a surrender of free will; therapy too often encourages it. A libertarian view of psychology and psychiatry. The Psychiatric Quarterly, 53(1):60-8. PMID 7255624
Breggin, P.R. (1980). Brain-disabling therapies. In E. Valenstein (ed.), The Psychosurgery Debate, W.H. Freeman, San Francisco, CA, 1980.
Breggin, P.R. (1975). Psychosurgery for the Control of violence: A critical review. In W. Fields and W. Sweet (eds.), Neural Bases of Violence and Aggression, Warren H. Green, Inc., St. Louis, MO, 350–378.
Breggin, P.R. (1975). Psychosurgery for political purposes. Duquesne Law Review, 13(4), 841–62. PMID 11661268
Breggin, P.R. (1975). Psychiatry and psychotherapy as political processes. American Journal of Psychotherapy, 29(3), 369–82. PMID 1163692
Breggin, P.R. (1974). Underlying a method: is psychosurgery an acceptable treatment for "hyperactivity" in children? Mental Hygiene, 58(1), 19–21. PMID 11662144
Breggin, P.R. (1974). Therapy as applied utopian politics. Mental Health and Society, 1(3–4), 129–46. PMID 4619904
Breggin, P.R. (1973). The second wave. Mental Hygiene, 57(1), 10–3. PMID 11664197
Breggin, P.R. (1972). The politics of therapy. Mental Hygiene, 56(3), 9–12. PMID 5070420
Breggin, P.R. (1971). Psychotherapy as applied ethics. Psychiatry, 34, 59–75. PMID 5541631
Breggin, P.R. (1965). The sedative-like effect of epinephrine. Archives of General Psychiatry 12:255–259. PMID 14246173
Breggin, P.R. (1964). The psychophysiology of anxiety; with a review of the literature concerning adrenaline. Journal of Nervous Mental Diseases 139:558–568. PMID 14243200

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Breggin



Peter Breggin, MD - FDA Testimony - December 2006

The "Quack" Dr. Peter Breggin was called to testify in front of Congress- How many times have you been asked to do that?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPx95sk7k1U

Here he is on O'reilly back when Fox recognized the potential problem, before the $ convinced them otherwise


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0iOd3KEAY

Quack? Suit yourself.

[Natural Citizen]

The other thread regarding this wwas much better discussion, I thought. Seems like this one is just here to derail the more relevant discussion. Just my opinion. And it's been left that way too. Interesting.

[pochy1776]

I read his writing and his biography. I watch his videos. Sorry he is not making a convincing case, especially with his partial denial of mental illness. Why don't you read and watch some of Steven Novella's material. A Yale Neurologist who is also skeptical of all the mental illness denial. No, he does not get funding from Big Pharma. I have no idea why Breggin is a hero nor why he is used in the majority of court cases. Good for him, there is too little psychotherapy in psychiatry today. Thats the good thing i will say. I have no idea why big Pharma gets the hatred it gets. i certainly is protectionist and government run, but i don't know why people hate its numerous applications just because we can;t save 100% of the people. Oh, and all those "bogus" studies are A.Peer Reviewed, B. Replicated, C. Are under scientific suspicion. Hard Science has some of the highest standards in the country. And yet, a lot of libertarians think it is a government conspiracy to make us all unhealthy slaves. I myself am Autistic and have Tourettes. I take Anti psychotics. And just because of the actions of a few people, I (a responsible student) can't own a damn gun.

[Peace Piper]

Yeah, Read PubMed articles on SSRI's they aren;t so big pharma is good. I take an antipsychotic, i haven't killed anyone yet.

I am pissed that there are some people here that want to ban psych med patients from getting guns or enjoying the same freedoms that the Ron Paul supporters espouse.

I want to live in a Ron Paul America Where ANYBODY of sound mind can get a gun. If i can't get a gun because i take an antipsychotic, then F*** YOU ALL, Because you are no less evil than the leftist who peddle gun control.

I never shot a gun in my life, i plan to soon.

Got it.

Wait.

No I don't.

And I'll pass on the shooting session thanks. What? I wasn't invited? :confused:

[Peace Piper]

...I have no idea why big Pharma gets the hatred it gets. i certainly is protectionist and government run, but i don't know why people hate its numerous applications just because we can;t save 100% of the people. Oh, and all those "bogus" studies are A.Peer Reviewed, B. Replicated, C. Are under scientific suspicion. Hard Science has some of the highest standards in the country. And yet, a lot of libertarians think it is a government conspiracy to make us all unhealthy slaves. I myself am Autistic and have Tourettes. I take Anti psychotics. And just because of the actions of a few people, I (a responsible student) can't own a damn gun.

Well for just one example (don't really have time right now to bring a laundry list, but maybe later- I'm motivated) bribing foreign officials, like Eli Lilly did, doesn't strike me as something to be celebrated but that's just me

Do you see a problem with bribing foreign officials so they can dump more of their poison in other countries to more people that don't need their violence inducing crap? I do.


Drug maker Eli Lilly hit with foreign bribery charges

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/121220064126-eli-lilly-lab-monster.jpg

Drug maker Eli Lilly has agreed to pay more than $29 million to settle charges that four of its international subsidiaries paid bribes to win business, the Securities and Exchange Commission announced Thursday.

The SEC charged Eli Lilly (LLY, Fortune 500) with violating the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act due to payments made to government officials and associates by the company's subsidiaries in Russia, Brazil, China and Poland.

In Russia, the SEC complaint alleges, Lilly's subsidiary paid millions of dollars for nonexistent "marketing agreements" between 1994 and 2005 to offshore companies linked to government officials. Even after becoming aware of these potential violations, the U.S. parent company did nothing to stop the use of such agreements for more than five years, the SEC says.

"When a parent company learns tell-tale signs of a bribery scheme involving a subsidiary, it must take immediate action," SEC associate enforcement director Antonia Chion said in a statement.

Lilly units in Brazil and Poland were accused of paying smaller bribes, together totally around $109,000. In China, a Lilly subsidiary allegedly falsified expense reports to cover gifts including spa treatments and jewelry to government doctors.

Lilly settled without admitting or denying the allegations, as is common in SEC cases.

"Lilly requires our employees to act with integrity with all external parties and in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations," Anne Nobles, Lilly's chief ethics and compliance officer, said in a statement.

"We have cooperated with the U.S. government throughout this investigation and have strengthened our internal controls and compliance program globally, including significant investment in our global anti-corruption program."

In August, fellow pharmaceutical giant Pfizer (PFE, Fortune 500) paid $60 million to settle charges that its subsidiaries had paid bribes in countries including China, Russia, Italy and Serbia.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/20/news/companies/eli-lilly/index.html


How about these things:



Lawsuits

one of three cases to ever go to trial for SSRI indication in suicide, a Kentucky man, Joseph Wesbecker, who had been on Prozac, went to his workplace and opened fire, killing seven people and injuring 12 others before turning the gun on himself. The jury returned a 9-to-3 verdict in favor of Lilly. The case's judge, however, took the matter to the Kentucky Supreme Court, which found that "there was a serious lack of candor with the trial court and there may have been deception, bad faith conduct, abuse of judicial process and, perhaps even fraud." The judge later revoked the verdict and instead recorded the case as settled. The value of the secret settlement deal has never been disclosed.

In June 2008, Eli Lilly and Company agreed to settle a lawsuit stemming from discrimination charges. The lawsuit alleged that the company withheld severance pay in order to convince a former employee, Starr E. Johnson, to withdraw her lawsuit. Eli Lilly was accused by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission of violating the federal anti-discrimination law when they withheld severance benefits to Johnson. Johnson originally filed a discrimination charge after she was fired in 2005. She is a black woman and became disfigured in 1997 when she was exposed to a blood pathogen. Her charge claimed that her supervisor stated that he was put in charge "so that he could watch her and get rid of her and that no one liked looking at her." Eli Lilly was ordered to pay $54,400 in severance pay, $7,000 in interest and compensatory damages, along with $3,000 in attorney fees.[14]

Criminal prosecution
See also: Olanzapine#Controversy, lawsuits and settlements

Eli Lilly pleaded guilty to violating U.S. law in its marketing of its anti-psychotic drug Zyprexa (Olanzapine) and was ordered to pay $1.42billion to settle criminal and civil allegations in the fourth largest pharmaceutical settlement in U.S. history. Eli Lilly said it had entered a misdemeanor plea for violation of federal law in its off-label promotion of Zyprexa between September 1999 and March 2001 and agreed to pay $615 million.

The U.S. Justice Department said the criminal fine of $515 million was the largest ever in a health care case, and the largest criminal fine for an individual corporation ever imposed in a U.S. criminal prosecution of any kind. Lilly also agreed to forfeit $100 million in the settlement. However, the company is still pursuing legal action against the lawyer, James Gottstein, who helped publicize the issues by passing documents to The New York Times and other media outlets. "That was a blemish for us," John Lechleiter, CEO of Lilly, told The New York Times. "We don’t ever want that to happen again. We put measures in place to assure that not only do we have the right intentions in integrity and compliance, but we have systems in place to support that."[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Lilly_and_Company


WHY AREN'T THESE EXECUTIVES IN JAIL like a person that grows a Cannabis plant?
Those are just a few examples pulled with about 3 minutes of search, highlight, copy, paste.
And those are examples from JUST ONE COMPANY.

There are quacks all right, they aren't the ones you are thinking of though...

[pochy1776]

Got it.

Wait.

No I don't.

And I'll pass on the shooting session thanks. What? I wasn't invited? :confused:
I'll Clarify Peace Piper. I am pissed, some libertarians are increasing the stigma of responsible people who take psych meds. THE MAJORITY which are non-violent and are likely to be victims of the violent. I don't even think Adam Lanza was taking Fanapt, because the "uncle" turned out to be a fraud. I have Tourettes as well as Aspergers, the former requires a drug called Pimozide. I take 1 Mg a day. I am upset that some people are calling people like me Crazy. And then stigmatizing these patients by wanting to bar their gun rights. I am a Student, I am also a college applicant. I am responsible and I am a Libertarian. I don't infringe on people's rights unless they pose a risk to themselves which often leads to posing a risk to others. So, why is it that Unscientific Quacks like Mike Adams and at least 9% of the members of RPF want me to not own a gun?

[pochy1776]

Well for just one example (don't really have time right now to bring a laundry list, but maybe later- I'm motivated) bribing foreign officials, like Eli Lilly did, doesn't strike me as something to be celebrated but that's just me

Do you see a problem with bribing foreign officials so they can dump more of their poison in other countries to more people that don't need their violence inducing crap? I do.



How about these things:



WHY AREN'T THESE EXECUTIVES IN JAIL like a person that grows a Cannabis plant?

HmMM?
Because they have not done anything wrong unless they are in trial. I hope Eli Lilly are in trial. I think she paid the fines. Also I advocate for Drug Legalization.

[cbrons]

CTM is not witchcraft. Perhaps you should only reply to topics you know something about.

I'm sure (100% positive) I know quite a bit more about medicine and science than you.

And also, if you think so-called Chinese Medicine is so great, how about the next time you get chest pain rather than undergo a 12 lead and troponins at a local ER, go get some acupuncture.

[tttppp]

I'm sure (100% positive) I know quite a bit more about medicine and science than you.

And also, if you think so-called Chinese Medicine is so great, how about the next time you get chest pain rather than undergo a 12 lead and troponins at a local ER, go get some acupuncture.

Wrong. I know this topic better than you. Acupuncture is done before you get the chest pain so you dont get a heart attack in the first place.

[pochy1776]

Wrong. I know this topic better than you. Acupuncture is done before you get the chest pain so you dont get a heart attack in the first place.

Thats good, Preventative medicine.

Also, You should listen to cbrons. PM him on why.

[cbrons]

Wrong. I know this topic better than you. Acupuncture is done before you get the chest pain so you dont get a heart attack in the first place.

Interesting, I didn't happen to learn that in medical school. Getting poked with needles unblocks coronary arteries? Guess all that stenting that cardiologists do is a big scam after all.

[tttppp]

Interesting, I didn't happen to learn that in medical school. Getting poked with needles unblocks coronary arteries? Guess all that stenting that cardiologists do is a big scam after all.

It is a scam. Thats the biggest reason for our health care problems.

[cbrons]

It is a scam. Thats the biggest reason for our health care problems.

So if you or a family member was having a heart attack you wouldn't take them to a hospital? You'd take them to an Acupuncture-ist?

[The Free Hornet]

Where did Michael Moore get his M.D. or Pharm.D?

Would you infer that those state-sanctioned and mandated (to practice) degrees confer more knowledge on the subject matter? It is fine to value a formal education but you know damn well that Michael Moore has no medical degrees! So what is the point of implying state-force supported prohibitions on the practice of medicine is a good thing?

If you don't like the inferences from my questions, consider the feeling mutal.




This is like blaming diet sodas for causing obesity. People with mental illness are more likely to take antidepressants. So when a crazy person does something crazy, chances are good that he was taking one of these drugs. Correlation does not imply causation. The vast majority of people taking these drugs have mild depression and don't do crazy things. This is the same logic liberals use to blame guns for crime.

What happened to your nephew? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?368746-Missouri-Caucus-Part-II-Open-Thread&p=4306665&viewfull=1#post4306665)

[pochy1776]

Would you infer that those state-sanctioned and mandated (to practice) degrees confer more knowledge on the subject matter? It is fine to value a formal education but you know damn well that Michael Moore has no medical degrees! So what is the point of implying state-force supported prohibitions on the practice of medicine is a good thing?

If you don't like the inferences from my questions, consider the feeling mutal.





What happened to your nephew? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?368746-Missouri-Caucus-Part-II-Open-Thread&p=4306665&viewfull=1#post4306665)

That doesn't mean an MD is useless or defective, it just mean it is state laws are using unneeded state sanctions. If anything, the system will still be the same. Exams, Residency, and more EVIDENCE/SCIENCE based learning. TO answer your question, Yes. Medicine is a science related field, if you have certification you should know better than laymen to what you are talking about. It is hard to get that credential. Cbrons (i assume) is a libertarian like you. I am sure he is against the state protectionism of medicine. But to glorify Noctors or alternative practitioners as better or more libertarian is foolish. If you want to MEANINGFULLY reform the system or challenge it, get your credentials (PhD, MD, both), spend some years in practice and reform it. Its better than shithead Noctors or fitness experts that write books about how great cholesterol is or how it is a conspiracy.

[pochy1776]

So if you or a family member was having a heart attack you wouldn't take them to a hospital? You'd take them to an Acupuncture-ist?
Cbrons, Diet and exercise would have fixed the problem. Nobody wants to do it thats why we put stents and give them lipitor.

[donnay]

This is like blaming diet sodas for causing obesity. People with mental illness are more likely to take antidepressants. So when a crazy person does something crazy, chances are good that he was taking one of these drugs. Correlation does not imply causation. The vast majority of people taking these drugs have mild depression and don't do crazy things. This is the same logic liberals use to blame guns for crime.

Diet soda in fact does cause obesity!

Diet Soda Linked To Weight Gain (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/diet-soda-weight-gain_n_886409.html)
TWO NEW STUDIES ON ASPARTAME AND DIET DRINKS CONFIRM SOURCE OF OBESITY, CANCER/ MALIGNANT BRAIN TUMOR EPIDEMICS. (http://www.wnho.net/new_aspartame_studies.htm)
Diet Sodas Linked to Increased Obesity, Diabetes (http://www.weightlosssurgerychannel.com/breaking-wls-news/diet-sodas-linked-to-increased-obesity-diabetes.html/)
THE OBESITY EPIDEMIC:SHOULD WE BELIEVE WHAT WE READ AND HEAR (http://www.truthinlabeling.org/Obesity%20epidemic.html)
Study: Aspartame, saccharin cause greater weight gain than sugar (http://digitaljournal.com/article/336475)
How Diet Foods and Drinks Can Actually Cause, NOT Prevent Diabetes (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/02/aspartame-and-msg-on-diabetes.aspx)
Can Diet Soda Make You Gain Weight? (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500194_162-2330142.html)

[donnay]

Interesting, I didn't happen to learn that in medical school. Getting poked with needles unblocks coronary arteries? Guess all that stenting that cardiologists do is a big scam after all.

One just needs to follow the money...just like all the cancer institutes and mega cancer hospitals. If there were cures (which there are) then those BIG businesses lose-- followed by BIG pHARMa.

[pochy1776]

One just needs to follow the money...just like all the cancer institutes and mega cancer hospitals. If there were cures (which there are) then those BIG businesses lose-- followed by BIG pHARMa.
If a pharmaceutical cure for cancer came out, i guarantee you that company (janssen or Pfizer) would make SO MUCH MONEY! The cure to cancer would make A LOT for BIG PHARMA. Hell, 4 dollar generics don't hurt BIG Pharma, why should the cure to cancer.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

when I was in middle school they put me on medication to treat "ADD" After taking it for 3 days I refused to take it any longer because of how uncomfortable it made me feel. I literally felt like I had no soul.

[Peace Piper]

If a pharmaceutical cure for cancer came out, i guarantee you that company (janssen or Pfizer) would make SO MUCH MONEY! The cure to cancer would make A LOT for BIG PHARMA. Hell, 4 dollar generics don't hurt BIG Pharma, why should the cure to cancer.

It's possible that a cure for cancer might not come from a lab or a pharmaceutical company at all. The old forest for the trees thing.

In fact, here is someone that claims Cannabis oil does just that- cure, or kill cancer cells. Now I know, that's preposterous. That is what even I would have thought just 10 years ago (2003- the year the federal government patented the use of the main ingredient in Cannabis (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6630507.PN.&OS=PN/6630507&RS=PN/6630507)-oh yes they did).

First, here's Rick Simpson with his Hemp Oil:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1LLcSwYyCY

Here is a video that purports to show cancer cells actually being killed (or whatever) by THC-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OqSRfzqwWA

http://thesethgroup.org/

SETH stands for Scientists Exploring Truth in Healing. We are an interdisciplinary team of scientists with the long-term goal of radically improving the health and survival of cancer patients. We seek to develop new models for cancer research based on compassion and open mindedness. Paying attention to what people with cancer are experiencing, our group focuses on ways to test promising new therapies that could be integrated with conventional treatments. We are open-minded skeptics and our goal is to find the evidence and act quickly to publish it in peer-reviewed scientific journals to make the information, positive or negative, available to the public.

All SETH Group scientists have formal appointments at academic medical centers or public health institutions. Access to state-of-the-art biotechnology allows our group to evaluate novel therapies using the same tests that an experimental chemotherapy would go through. We are able to recruit special expertise to projects through professional networks, thus adapting our scientific inquiry to follow where the data lead. This adaptability gives us an advantage when exploring new territories.

We recognize that the cure for cancer - or the key to peaceful co-existence with cancer - will not likely be as simple as taking a pill. We recognize spirituality as a potentially relevant dimension of the human experience that impacts health and healing. Along with this holistic approach, our group has a decidedly practical mission. We want to find out what people with cancer are using, whether anything works and, if yes, why. We are also interested in developing novel technologies to aid in the treatment of cancer. The well-being of people is the focus. We will proceed with all due skepticism but we are also fully prepared to report what we find.

*****

Other more conventional science backs up the basic premise:

From the National Cancer Institute at the National Institute of Health (.GOV)
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page4

Antitumor Effects

One study in mice and rats suggested that cannabinoids may have a protective effect against the development of certain types of tumors.[3] During this 2-year study, groups of mice and rats were given various doses of THC by gavage. A dose-related decrease in the incidence of hepatic adenoma tumors and hepatocellular carcinoma was observed in the mice. Decreased incidences of benign tumors (polyps and adenomas) in other organs (mammary gland, uterus, pituitary, testis, and pancreas) were also noted in the rats. In another study, delta-9-THC, delta-8-THC, and cannabinol were found to inhibit the growth of Lewis lung adenocarcinoma cells in vitro and in vivo .[4] In addition, other tumors have been shown to be sensitive to cannabinoid-induced growth inhibition.[5-8]

Cannabinoids may cause antitumor effects by various mechanisms, including induction of cell death, inhibition of cell growth, and inhibition of tumor angiogenesis invasion and metastasis.[9-12] One review summarizes the molecular mechanisms of action of cannabinoids as antitumor agents.[13] Cannabinoids appear to kill tumor cells but do not affect their nontransformed counterparts and may even protect them from cell death. These compounds have been shown to induce apoptosis in glioma cells in culture and induce regression of glioma tumors in mice and rats. Cannabinoids protect normal glial cells of astroglial and oligodendroglial lineages from apoptosis mediated by the CB1 receptor.[14]

The effects of delta-9-THC and a synthetic agonist of the CB2 receptor were investigated in hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC).[15] Both agents reduced the viability of hepatocellular carcinoma cells in vitro and demonstrated antitumor effects in hepatocellular carcinoma subcutaneous xenografts in nude mice. The investigations documented that the anti-HCC effects are mediated by way of the CB2 receptor. Similar to findings in glioma cells, the cannabinoids were shown to trigger cell death through stimulation of an endoplasmic reticulum stress pathway that activates autophagy and promotes apoptosis. Other investigations have confirmed that CB1 and CB2 receptors may be potential targets in non-small cell lung carcinoma [16] and breast cancer.[17]>>>MORE

(and now you know why the feds patented the use of cannabinoids (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6630507.PN.&OS=PN/6630507&RS=PN/6630507))

****
Harvard Study says Marijuana Cures Cancer
http://www.nowpublic.com/thc_marijuana_helps_cure_cancer_says_harvard_study #ixzz19TMQ805v

Believe it or not, a Harvard study released on April 17, 2007 shows that the active ingredient in marijuana, THC, cuts tumor growth in common lung cancer in half and significantly reduces the ability of the cancer to spread!

Researchers at Harvard tested the chemical THC in both lab and mouse studies. They say this is the first set of experiments to show that the compound, THC actually activates naturally produced receptors to fight off lung cancer. The researchers suggest that THC or other designer agents that activate these receptors might be used in a targeted fashion to treat lung cancer.

******
Pot Shrinks Tumors; Government Knew in '74
http://www.alternet.org/story/9257/pot_shrinks_tumors%3B_government_knew_in_'74

In 1974 researchers learned that THC, the active chemical in marijuana, shrank or destroyed brain tumors in test mice. But the DEA quickly shut down the study and destroyed its results, which were never replicated -- until now.

The term medical marijuana took on dramatic new meaning in February, 2000 when researchers in Madrid announced they had destroyed incurable brain tumors in rats by injecting them with THC, the active ingredient in cannabis.

The Madrid study marks only the second time that THC has been administered to tumor-bearing animals; the first was a Virginia investigation 26 years ago. In both studies, the THC shrank or destroyed tumors in a majority of the test subjects.


********
Marijuana Chemical May Fight Brain Cancer
Active Component In Marijuana Targets Aggressive Brain Cancer Cells, Study Says
http://www.webmd.com/cancer/brain-cancer/news/20090401/marijuana-chemical-may-fight-brain-cancer

April 1, 2009 -- The active chemical in marijuana promotes the death of brain cancer cells by essentially helping them feed upon themselves, researchers in Spain report.

Guillermo Velasco and colleagues at Complutense University in Spain have found that the active ingredient in marijuana, THC, causes brain cancer cells to undergo a process called autophagy. Autophagy is the breakdown of a cell that occurs when the cell essentially self-digests.

The team discovered that cannabinoids such as THC had anticancer effects in mice with human brain cancer cells and people with brain tumors. When mice with the human brain cancer cells received the THC, the tumor growth shrank.

Two patients enrolled in a clinical trial received THC directly to the brain as an experimental treatment for recurrent glioblastoma multiforme, a highly aggressive brain tumor. Biopsies taken before and after treatment helped track their progress. After receiving the THC, there was evidence of increased autophagy activity.
******

THC cuts lung cancer growth, spread
http://scienceblog.com/18538/thc-cuts-lung-cancer-growth-spread/

The active ingredient in marijuana cuts tumor growth in common lung cancer in half and significantly reduces the ability of the cancer to spread, say researchers at Harvard University who tested the chemical in both lab and mouse studies.

They say this is the first set of experiments to show that the compound, Delta-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), inhibits EGF-induced growth and migration in epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) expressing non-small cell lung cancer cell lines. Lung cancers that over-express EGFR are usually highly aggressive and resistant to chemotherapy.

THC that targets cannabinoid receptors CB1 and CB2 is similar in function to endocannabinoids, which are cannabinoids that are naturally produced in the body and activate these receptors. The researchers suggest that THC or other designer agents that activate these receptors might be used in a targeted fashion to treat lung cancer.>>>MORE

******

[tttppp]

So if you or a family member was having a heart attack you wouldn't take them to a hospital? You'd take them to an Acupuncture-ist?



You are missing the point. You do acupuncture ahead of time to prevent the heart attack or strokes etc.

[donnay]

If a pharmaceutical cure for cancer came out, i guarantee you that company (janssen or Pfizer) would make SO MUCH MONEY! The cure to cancer would make A LOT for BIG PHARMA. Hell, 4 dollar generics don't hurt BIG Pharma, why should the cure to cancer.

There is cure(s) but the only problem is BIG pHARMa cannot corner it all to themselves. So the multinational pharmaceutical Companies commence in 'scare tactics' over Cannabis sativa, and they do the same for B-17 (Laetrile). They have enough money to lobby and own politicians. If you cannot see that, then you are NOT paying attention.

Again, imagine if these cures were put in place--the domino effect that would happen would be stupendous. All those mega Cancer hospitals and cancer treatment centers would be worthless and would go out of business because no one would need them!

Sources:
http://worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/ultimateconspiracy.html
http://worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/success.html
http://www.anticancerinfo.co.uk/b17_therapy.html

[cheapseats]

There is cure(s) but the only problem is BIG pHARMa cannot corner it all to themselves. So the multinational pharmaceutical Companies commence in 'scare tactics' over Cannabis sativa, and they do the same for B-17 (Laetrile). They have enough money to lobby and own politicians. If you cannot see that, than you are NOT paying attention.

Again, imagine if these cures were put in place--the domino effect that would happen would be stupendous. All those mega Cancer hospitals and cancer treatment centers would be worthless and would go out of business because no one would need them!

Sources:
http://worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/ultimateconspiracy.html
http://worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/success.html
http://www.anticancerinfo.co.uk/b17_therapy.html


Yep and yep. Cancer is BIG BUSINESS.

IMAGINE U.S. GDP WITHOUT CRIME...without SPENDING by Crooks AND THEIR FAMILIES, without derivative boons to OUR notorious Legal System, to Incarceration Incorporated, and to the Entertainment Sector.

[cbrons]

Would you infer that those state-sanctioned and mandated (to practice) degrees confer more knowledge on the subject matter?

Yes, I would. I would say a medical degree or a pharmacy degree or a PhD in pharmacology would make you more knowledgeable than a lay person ranting on the internet. The fact that is "state sanctioned" doesn't change that.


It is fine to value a formal education but you know damn well that Michael Moore has no medical degrees! So what is the point of implying state-force supported prohibitions on the practice of medicine is a good thing?

I implied nothing of the sort. What I did mean to imply was that as far as these threads demonizing psychiatry and drugs is concerned, I see them as nothing more than hysteria from mostly uneducated people who have no qualifications whatsoever to speak with any credibility on the issue.

Your n=1 experience with any given drug doesn't make you expert on how that drug works or for whom it may or may not be right.

[cbrons]

There is cure(s) but the only problem is BIG pHARMa cannot corner it all to themselves. So the multinational pharmaceutical Companies commence in 'scare tactics' over Cannabis sativa, and they do the same for B-17 (Laetrile). They have enough money to lobby and own politicians. If you cannot see that, then you are NOT paying attention.

Again, imagine if these cures were put in place--the domino effect that would happen would be stupendous. All those mega Cancer hospitals and cancer treatment centers would be worthless and would go out of business because no one would need them!

Sources:
http://worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/ultimateconspiracy.html
http://worldwithoutcancer.org.uk/success.html
http://www.anticancerinfo.co.uk/b17_therapy.html

I would be a lot of money you don't know what a vitamin is.

Heh I looked at your worldwithoutcancer site and right there on the "ultimate conspiracy" page it has this brilliant gem:

"The trophoblast in pregnancy indeed does exhibit all the classical characteristics of cancer. It spreads and multiplies rapidly as it eats its way into the uterus wall preparing a place where the embryo can attach itself for maternal protection and nourishment."

^ 100% false

[cbrons]

Stunning proof of this claim is readily available. All trophoblast cells produce a unique hormone called the chorionic gonadotrophic (CGH) which is easily detected in urine. Thus if a person is either pregnant or has cancer, a simple CGH pregnancy test should confirm either or both. It does, with an accuracy of better than 92% in all cases. If the urine sample shows positive it means either normal pregnancy or abnormal malignant cancer. Griffin notes: "If the patient is a woman, she either is pregnant or has cancer. If he is a man, cancer can be the only cause." So why all of the expensive, dangerous biopsies carried to 'detect' cancerous growths? One can only assume that Medicare pays doctors a larger fee for biopsies than pregnancy tests.

Hahaha this is also 100% incorrect and even 1st year medical students could intuit why this is rubbish before midterms of 1st semester. hCG can be a marker for cancers of the germ line, but certainly not all types of cancer.

I mean imagine if all that was needed to detect and stage cancer was serum or urine hCG levels. we could have people pee on a stick or for more accuracy, get a routine blood test. Gee I wonder how such a simple diagnostic tool escaped the notice of all those MD/PhD physician-scientists who spent entire careers on cancer staging research.

The people who run that site should be tarred and feathered. How embarrassing. You do know most of these so-called cures are pushed by con-men trying to take money from sick people, right? Oh but that's not a conspiracy because they put the label "all natural" on it. Or it makes you high, so that means it's good.

[donnay]

I would be a lot of money you don't know what a vitamin is.

Heh I looked at your worldwithoutcancer site and right there on the "ultimate conspiracy" page it has this brilliant gem:

"The trophoblast in pregnancy indeed does exhibit all the classical characteristics of cancer. It spreads and multiplies rapidly as it eats its way into the uterus wall preparing a place where the embryo can attach itself for maternal protection and nourishment."

^ 100% false


trophoblast (trf-blst)
The outermost layer of cells of the blastocyst, which attaches the fertilized ovum to the uterine wall and serves as a nutritive pathway for the embryo. The trophoblast eventually differentiates into such tissues as the amnion, the placenta, and the umbilical cord.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trophoblast

[cbrons]

trophoblast (trf-blst)
The outermost layer of cells of the blastocyst, which attaches the fertilized ovum to the uterine wall and serves as a nutritive pathway for the embryo. The trophoblast eventually differentiates into such tissues as the amnion, the placenta, and the umbilical cord.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trophoblast

Unlike you i don't have to rely on thefreedictionary.com, since I took both Embryology and Genetics (covers cancer) in medical school. And not a quack degree mill calling itself a "medical" school. I mean an actual US M.D. school: a place where they make you take very difficult classes after only letting about 10% of the people who apply in, where they have classes taught by actual PhD researchers at the top of their fields.

The trophoblast doesn't exhibit "all of the classical characteristics of cancer."

I'll give it to you in a nutshell. Cancer = Wildly unregulated cell growth. Embryogenesis = Very, very, very highly regulated cell growth and differentiation. (Among many other differences).

[Todd]

Do you have evidence Adam Lanza was on prescription drugs?

A story ran he was on a psychotropic med called Fanapt, which has side effects of increased aggression, violence and suicidal tendancies. However you'll have to decide if the sources are legitimate.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Adam+Lanza+fanapt&oq=Adam+Lanza+fanapt&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.55344.55344.3.56826.1.1.0.0.0.0.87. 87.1.1.0.les%3Bcpsugrerhigh..0.0...1.1.wSGQZw2JRk0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.b2U&fp=acbfb5709eb9abcc&biw=1280&bih=865

[donnay]

Stunning proof of this claim is readily available. All trophoblast cells produce a unique hormone called the chorionic gonadotrophic (CGH) which is easily detected in urine. Thus if a person is either pregnant or has cancer, a simple CGH pregnancy test should confirm either or both. It does, with an accuracy of better than 92% in all cases. If the urine sample shows positive it means either normal pregnancy or abnormal malignant cancer. Griffin notes: "If the patient is a woman, she either is pregnant or has cancer. If he is a man, cancer can be the only cause." So why all of the expensive, dangerous biopsies carried to 'detect' cancerous growths? One can only assume that Medicare pays doctors a larger fee for biopsies than pregnancy tests.

Hahaha this is also 100% incorrect and even 1st year medical students could intuit why this is rubbish before midterms of 1st semester. hCG can be a marker for cancers of the germ line, but certainly not all types of cancer.

I mean imagine if all that was needed to detect and stage cancer was serum or urine hCG levels. we could have people pee on a stick or for more accuracy, get a routine blood test. Gee I wonder how such a simple diagnostic tool escaped the notice of all those MD/PhD physician-scientists who spent entire careers on cancer staging research.

The people who run that site should be tarred and feathered. How embarrassing. You do know most of these so-called cures are pushed by con-men trying to take money from sick people, right? Oh but that's not a conspiracy because they put the label "all natural" on it. Or it makes you high, so that means it's good.

Con-men? Huh? G. Edward Griffin is considered a con-man? G. Edward Griffin has been instrumental in waking people up about the Federal Reserve. He also is instrumental in waking people up to the conspiracy about Cancer. So you ought to research it before you make your typical indoctrinated comments.

http://www.realityzone.com/worwitcan.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/012923.html
http://archive.org/details/World_Without_Cancer

[tttppp]

Yes, I would. I would say a medical degree or a pharmacy degree or a PhD in pharmacology would make you more knowledgeable than a lay person ranting on the internet. The fact that is "state sanctioned" doesn't change that.



I implied nothing of the sort. What I did mean to imply was that as far as these threads demonizing psychiatry and drugs is concerned, I see them as nothing more than hysteria from mostly uneducated people who have no qualifications whatsoever to speak with any credibility on the issue.

Your n=1 experience with any given drug doesn't make you expert on how that drug works or for whom it may or may not be right.

I have seen numerous people on these psychiatric drugs. Almost all of them are suffering from problems caused by the medications and their initial problems are far from cured. I have yet to say about a psych patient "wow, I want a body like that."

Psychiatrists are just delusional about what they are doing for their patients. Offering a slight improvement in their thinking in exchange for destroying your body is not a cure. Yet they still think they are curing them.

[tttppp]

Unlike you i don't have to rely on thefreedictionary.com, since I took both Embryology and Genetics (covers cancer) in medical school. And not a quack degree mill calling itself a "medical" school. I mean an actual US M.D. school: a place where they make you take very difficult classes after only letting about 10% of the people who apply in, where they have classes taught by actual PhD researchers at the top of their fields.

The trophoblast doesn't exhibit "all of the classical characteristics of cancer."

I'll give it to you in a nutshell. Cancer = Wildly unregulated cell growth. Embryogenesis = Very, very, very highly regulated cell growth and differentiation. (Among many other differences).

How many cures have your teachers developed?

[cbrons]

A story ran he was on a psychotropic med called Fanapt, which has side effects of increased aggression, violence and suicidal tendancies. However you'll have to decide if the sources are legitimate.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Adam+Lanza+fanapt&oq=Adam+Lanza+fanapt&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.55344.55344.3.56826.1.1.0.0.0.0.87. 87.1.1.0.les%3Bcpsugrerhigh..0.0...1.1.wSGQZw2JRk0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.b2U&fp=acbfb5709eb9abcc&biw=1280&bih=865

From: http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-lanza-taking-antipsychotic-fanapt-2012-12#ixzz2HzDupSev

"Inside the piece though they report Adam Lanza's uncle said the boy was prescribed Fanapt, a controversial anti-psychotic medicine.

UPDATE: Since the publishing of this article, New York Daily News has removed the reference, the originator of the quote from Lanza's "uncle," because they believed him to be an "imposter."

[Lucille]

Fred (http://www.fredoneverything.net/SovietAsylum.shtml):


Big Pharma is too important to die. Kids don’t seem to be.

That about sums it up.


But let’s ask the question which, being critical, ain’t asked. I suppose it makes no sense to confuse ourselves with the essentials of things. Anyway, why have American school boys, who in my rural Virginia high-school of 1964 were armed to the eyeballs with deer guns and varmint rifles, and never shot anybody intentionally or accidentally, or had the idea pass through their whirring libido-crazed minds, if any—suddenly start shooting their friends in school? Why now?

[fisharmor]

Physicians today don't give 1 hour sessions like natruopathic or homeopathic healers. (i refuse to call them Physicians.)

Medical school is a post college 4 year degree. Years 1-2 is a basic/advanced science course filled with anatomy, biochemistry, microbiology, pathology and pharmacology. You will then have to pass an exam called Step 1. Year 3 is when you go into clerkships, where you learn EVERY relevant medical field. Internal Medicine, General Surgery, Neurology, Obstetrics and Gynecology, Psychiatry and Pediatrics. Fourth Year, you will go through clinical electives or research projects. You will then have to Take Step 2 which includes Clinical Knowledge and Clinical Skills. It is only offered in five cities: Philidelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, and LA. You will then MATCH (thats right, your specialty is chosen for you, But you get interviewed at a job you like) into your program (Harvard and Johns Hopkins are the most prestigious)do a 1 year internship and then a 3-7 year Residency. Most are completed in 4-5 years. During then, you work your ass off to prove to everyone else that you are a competent doctor. You will then have to pass a board exam (Step 3.) After a few years in working your ass off, You will then take the Board Certification Exam given by your State Board and then your Specialty Exams Given by your Specialty Board. You will complete Residency and try to get a job as an attending, where you will have to be responsible for teaching and being competent. Remember, you will have to do recertification every few years or so. Unless you get grandfathered in. So, This is how a doctor is trained. Its Not sodamn easy as everyone thinks it is. If you want to reform medicine or make it better. Get your credentials (as i am currently) and reform it. As you see it sucks being a doctor. I'm still surprised people want to do it.

Yeah, it's so stringent that when I go to the doctor I end up seeing a nurse practitioner for most of my time, and when I do see a doctor he doesn't look me in the eye, scribbles a bunch of chickenshit on a clipboard, tells me some platitude like how the intense pain in my foot is because "you know you're in your 30s now and stuff like this happens", suggests I do something exactly the opposite of what eventually makes it go away, and leaves a whopping 2 minutes later to bill me several hundred dollars.....

....and this is the guy I'm supposed to trust to make a valid diagnosis?

[tttppp]

Yeah, it's so stringent that when I go to the doctor I end up seeing a nurse practitioner for most of my time, and when I do see a doctor he doesn't look me in the eye, scribbles a bunch of chickenshit on a clipboard, tells me some platitude like how the intense pain in my foot is because "you know you're in your 30s now and stuff like this happens", suggests I do something exactly the opposite of what eventually makes it go away, and leaves a whopping 2 minutes later to bill me several hundred dollars.....

....and this is the guy I'm supposed to trust to make a valid diagnosis?

Thats exactly how it really is.

[tttppp]

Did you even read my post? Or are you so in love with unregulated (not always a good thing) QUACKS whose science education only include high school biology.

No. Not Cancer, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, Hypertension, Osteoporosis, Sickle Cell Anemia, Cerebral Palsy and Celiacs. I am starting a lot of people take medicine for granted. CANCER MORTALITY IS DOWN, Schizophrenia can now be fixed (Most mental hospitals are now empty because of the wonders of SSRI's and antipsychotics. Talk to a damn mental patient pre drug and post drug), Those with Celiacs can now live like normal people, People can be obese and have a healthy heart,I don't tick anymore.

Those are not cures. And read my posts. I have talked to plenty of mental patients. I never would have known they were cured by looking at them.

[pochy1776]

Con-men? Huh? G. Edward Griffin is considered a con-man? G. Edward Griffin has been instrumental in waking people up about the Federal Reserve. He also is instrumental in waking people up to the conspiracy about Cancer. So you ought to research it before you make your typical indoctrinated comments.

http://www.realityzone.com/worwitcan.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/012923.html
http://archive.org/details/World_Without_Cancer

Cbrons runs a radio show that blasts the establishment. Just because you don;t like EBM, it doesn't mean he is indoctrinated.

[pochy1776]

Yeah, it's so stringent that when I go to the doctor I end up seeing a nurse practitioner for most of my time, and when I do see a doctor he doesn't look me in the eye, scribbles a bunch of chickenshit on a clipboard, tells me some platitude like how the intense pain in my foot is because "you know you're in your 30s now and stuff like this happens", suggests I do something exactly the opposite of what eventually makes it go away, and leaves a whopping 2 minutes later to bill me several hundred dollars.....

....and this is the guy I'm supposed to trust to make a valid diagnosis?

Find a better doctor. Doctors also tend not to waste time on healthy patients. Find another doctor, its a free market (whats left of it.)

Zoc Doc is good place to find a good doctor.

[pochy1776]

Those are not cures. And read my posts. I have talked to plenty of mental patients. I never would have known they were cured by looking at them.
Facepalm. And how did you "talk" condescendingly or were you on a tour in the hospital.

[pochy1776]

Question to all the pissed off people:

Does believing in Natural health and pissing off and screaming at allopathic medicine Make you a better libertarian? Does believing in Science and evidenced Based medicine make you less of a libertarian?

[cbrons]

Question to all the pissed off people:

Does believing in Natural health and pissing off and screaming at allopathic medicine Make you a better libertarian? Does believing in Science and evidenced Based medicine make you less of a libertarian?

Before I started (allopathic) medical school, I sent a lab coat down to Washington D.C. to a high school friend who works on capital hill to get 2 signatures for me:

Rand Paul, M.D.
Ron Paul, M.D.

I'd say since both are practitioners of allopathic medicine, we can safely say that not supporting quackery at the very least isn't a strike against you

[pochy1776]

Before I started (allopathic) medical school, I sent a lab coat down to Washington D.C. to a high school friend who works on capital hill to get 2 signatures for me:

Rand Paul, M.D.
Ron Paul, M.D.

I'd say since both are practitioners of allopathic medicine, we can safely say that not supporting quackery at the very least isn't a strike against you

I hate getting into argument with most people on here, But despite my douchey and ass backwards tone to good people like Donnay and tttppp, i am not banned. Thats why like RPF a lot. Its better than most forums. I am also considering to move to new hampshire.

[donnay]

Before I started (allopathic) medical school, I sent a lab coat down to Washington D.C. to a high school friend who works on capital hill to get 2 signatures for me:

Rand Paul, M.D.
Ron Paul, M.D.

I'd say since both are practitioners of allopathic medicine, we can safely say that not supporting quackery at the very least isn't a strike against you

Dr. Paul is the biggest advocate for health freedom--He introduced two bills in 2007: The Health Freedom Protection Act, HR 2117, to ensure Americans can receive truthful health information about supplements and natural remedies. The Medical Treatment Act, H.R. 2717, which expands the ability of Americans to use alternative medicine and new treatments. Including medical marijuana.

Dr. Paul opposed all legislation that expands the FDA powers. He also opposed the Homeland Security Bill, H.R. 5005, which, in section 304, authorizes the forced vaccination of American citizens against small pox. Dr. Paul said the government should NEVER have the power to force vaccines on anyone!

[cbrons]

Dr. Paul is the biggest advocate for health freedom--He introduced two bills in 2007: The Health Freedom Protection Act, HR 2117, to ensure Americans can receive truthful health information about supplements and natural remedies. The Medical Treatment Act, H.R. 2717, which expands the ability of Americans to use alternative medicine and new treatments. Including medical marijuana.

Dr. Paul opposed all legislation that expands the FDA powers. He also opposed the Homeland Security Bill, H.R. 5005, which, in section 304, authorizes the forced vaccination of American citizens against small pox. Dr. Paul said the government should NEVER have the power to force vaccines on anyone!

And your point is what? That I oppose those things?

Doesn't matter to me if you think smoking weed is going to cure cancer. Knock yourself out, man.

[Brian4Liberty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efsm6aJPybg

[donnay]

And your point is what? That I oppose those things?

Doesn't matter to me if you think smoking weed is going to cure cancer. Knock yourself out, man.


You opposed so-called quackery, yet Dr. Ron Paul doesn't.

[cbrons]

You opposed so-called quackery, yet Dr. Ron Paul doesn't.

I'll bet you $100.00 via paypal right now that Ron Paul does not believe that Vitamin B17 (and its not a vitamin btw) cures cancer. And I have a friend who works for a republican on capital hill who can ask Rand who can ask his father.

What I believe, and what Ron Paul believes, is that you can use it if you want and the FDA doesn't have the right or Constitutional authority to stand in your way. Big difference.

[fisharmor]

I'll bet you $100.00 via paypal right now that Ron Paul does not believe that Vitamin B17 (and its not a vitamin btw) cures cancer. And I have a friend who works for a republican on capital hill who can ask Rand who can ask his father.

What I believe, and what Ron Paul believes, is that you can use it if you want and the FDA doesn't have the right or Constitutional authority to stand in your way. Big difference.

Well let me clear up two things for you.

First, Ron Paul is not the boss of me. So if he isn't, then you can be extra damned sure Rand isn't. And I'm pretty sure they're not the boss of donnay either.

Second, since I don't constrain myself to the box of what Ron Paul believes, I've made the determination that when I break a pint glass and cut my hand so badly that I can see the fat around my thumb, but I'm not bleeding out, I do not need to see someone who spent a couple years getting versed in internal medicine, obstetrics, proctology, oncology, dermatology, podiatry, or any other field relating to anything other than stitching flesh together.

I do not need to wait two hours to get this done. I do not need to see someone with an advanced degree. I do not need to fill out reams of paperwork. And I sure as shit don't need to be not continuing to drink the entire time.

I need to pay someone to put three stitches in, or determine what will best heal. I need to get this done in a half hour and I need to pay $50 for it. If I'm in a high cost of living area, I need to get it done in the same half hour and perhaps get somewhat annoyed at the fact that it cost $100 and then ultimately resign myself to the fact that I had the bad fortune to get injured on Manhattan island.

There is no constitutional authority to prevent individual states from mandating that people who have had eight grueling years of training be the ones to sew my hand together, thus extending the process time by 400% and cost by 800-1000%.
And here we are.

It has been at least 20 years since any of you has done anything but waste my time.
So forgive me if I don't just gobble up everything physicians have to say about SSRIs.

[Lucille]

After Sandy Hook: How Psychiatrists Will Become Policemen
http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/rappoport6.1.1.html


Obama, in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre, stated that mental-health services must be made more available, presumably to stave off future killers.

Of course, this is monstrously wrong, since so many killers have acted under the compelling influence of SSRI antidepressants and other brain meds. The drugs are known to induce violence.

More mental health means more murders.

Now we hear that Joe Biden’s presidential task force on gun control is meeting with psychiatrists (backup link on infowars.com here). Here is what they’re discussing:

Databases. They want to tighten background checks on people who buy guns, and the checks could include discovering whether applicants have ever been under psychiatric care, and if so, what diagnosis(es) was made.

In order to do that, there will have to be a comprehensive database and a tracking system that extends into, and from, every psychiatrist’s front desk. Law-enforcement will have access to that database.

What happened to doctor-patient confidentiality? It’s possible this issue can be skirted merely by affirming that a gun-applicant has seen a psychiatrist at some point in time—which fact could exclude him from purchasing a weapon.

Organized psychiatry would, of course welcome a comprehensive database of Americans who have obtained psychiatric care. It makes their profession seem even more official than it already is. And it imparts a tinge of USSR-like power.

The implication: “We know who you are. We know you’ve been under the care of a psychiatrist. Wherever you live and work, we can call you crazy if we want to.”...

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

It’s possible this issue can be skirted merely by affirming that a gun-applicant has seen a psychiatrist at some point in time—which fact could exclude him from purchasing a weapon.


Exactly. Or they'll just exclude that from confidentiality.

I mean, really, they already have regular doctors asking people if they own guns. If a doctor asked me that, my gun and I would quickly go find another doctor. I'm not seeing a general practitioner because I have firearms issues. wtf? If they just want to go fishing, there must be 20 bigger fish.

[donnay]

I'll bet you $100.00 via paypal right now that Ron Paul does not believe that Vitamin B17 (and its not a vitamin btw) cures cancer. And I have a friend who works for a republican on capital hill who can ask Rand who can ask his father.

What I believe, and what Ron Paul believes, is that you can use it if you want and the FDA doesn't have the right or Constitutional authority to stand in your way. Big difference.


So you seemingly think you know the mind of Dr. Ron Paul, even though he continuously bucks against the establishment?

Again let me reiterate a point that you have decided to overlook. G. Edward Griffin exposed the Federal Reserve with his book; The Creature from Jekyll Island. This book also influenced Dr. Paul's thinking on the Federal Reserve. Dr. Paul's book, The Revolution: A Manifesto, Dr. Paul recommends reading G. Edward Griffin's book, The Creature from Jekyll Island.

So if I was a betting woman, I would bet that Dr. Paul is familiar with the research and documentation of G. Edward Griffins other works.

The word B-17 was coined by biochemist Ernst T. Krebs. Just like Vitamin D3 isn't really a vitamin at all it is a hormone--but people still call it a vitamin--even the allopathic community.

[cbrons]

Well let me clear up two things for you.

First, Ron Paul is not the boss of me. So if he isn't, then you can be extra damned sure Rand isn't. And I'm pretty sure they're not the boss of donnay either.

Second, since I don't constrain myself to the box of what Ron Paul believes, I've made the determination that when I break a pint glass and cut my hand so badly that I can see the fat around my thumb, but I'm not bleeding out, I do not need to see someone who spent a couple years getting versed in internal medicine, obstetrics, proctology, oncology, dermatology, podiatry, or any other field relating to anything other than stitching flesh together.

I do not need to wait two hours to get this done. I do not need to see someone with an advanced degree. I do not need to fill out reams of paperwork. And I sure as shit don't need to be not continuing to drink the entire time.

I need to pay someone to put three stitches in, or determine what will best heal. I need to get this done in a half hour and I need to pay $50 for it. If I'm in a high cost of living area, I need to get it done in the same half hour and perhaps get somewhat annoyed at the fact that it cost $100 and then ultimately resign myself to the fact that I had the bad fortune to get injured on Manhattan island.

There is no constitutional authority to prevent individual states from mandating that people who have had eight grueling years of training be the ones to sew my hand together, thus extending the process time by 400% and cost by 800-1000%.
And here we are.

It has been at least 20 years since any of you has done anything but waste my time.
So forgive me if I don't just gobble up everything physicians have to say about SSRIs.

I never said RP is anyones boss or that you should see a doctor. I don't even know if you are talking to me though

[cbrons]

The word B-17 was coined by biochemist Ernst T. Krebs. Just like Vitamin D3 isn't really a vitamin at all it is a hormone--but people still call it a vitamin--even the allopathic community.

He called it a vitamin so it could be sold to people who think the label "vitamin" means it's good and safe. There's a sucker born every minute.

[cbrons]

So you seemingly think you know the mind of Dr. Ron Paul, even though he continuously bucks against the establishment?

Again let me reiterate a point that you have decided to overlook. G. Edward Griffin exposed the Federal Reserve with his book; The Creature from Jekyll Island. This book also influenced Dr. Paul's thinking on the Federal Reserve. Dr. Paul's book, The Revolution: A Manifesto, Dr. Paul recommends reading G. Edward Griffin's book, The Creature from Jekyll Island.

OOOO!!! He wrote a good book on another topic so that must mean everything he says on everything is right!! #donnay_logic

[Brian4Liberty]

After Sandy Hook: How Psychiatrists Will Become Policemen
http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/rappoport6.1.1.html

Very good point. Because of the war on drugs, Doctors already violate their Hippocratic Oath and act as Police. The war on guns will be another nail in the coffin of the medical profession. They will become nothing more than an arm of the state. Another TSA. It all comes together. Government health care, doing double duty as the eyes and ears of the state.


So let's examine this further. Did the medical personnel violate the Oath of Hippocrates, and Doctor-Patient confidentiality?

So it seems clear that this case would be a violation of patient confidentiality. How can thousands of years of medical ethics be thrown out the window?

Oh yes, there are exceptions to the rule. Now what could those exceptions possibly be?

Well, imagine that? Thousands of years of medical ethics, superceded by the war on drugs and "balancing the state's interest".

http://www.enotes.com/healthcare-reference/doctor-patient-confidentiality

[pochy1776]

Very good point. Because of the war on drugs, Doctors already violate their Hippocratic Oath and act as Police. The war on guns will be another nail in the coffin of the medical profession. They will become nothing more than an arm of the state. Another TSA. It all comes together. Government health care, doing double duty as the eyes and ears of the state.

Sadly your'e right on that account. Doctors will have to become employees of the state. Our stupid government loves this shit.

[pochy1776]

OOOO!!! He wrote a good book on another topic so that must mean everything he says on everything is right!! #donnay_logic

Don't stoop to that level of insulting, no matter how awesome it feels. I got in trouble with that once on the forum.

[donnay]

He called it a vitamin so it could be sold to people who think the label "vitamin" means it's good and safe. There's a sucker born every minute.

Again Vitamin D3 is not a vitamin at all...but most call it a vitamin. Your point is lame.

[donnay]

OOOO!!! He wrote a good book on another topic so that must mean everything he says on everything is right!! #donnay_logic

And by your logic you think you know the mind of Dr. Paul and that he is against anything to do with Laetrile treatments. :rolleyes: This seems to be the REAL problem with those who are indoctrinated in Allopathic medicine--they tend not to step out of the box and research for themselves.

[pochy1776]

And by your logic you think you know the mind of Dr. Paul and that he is against anything to do with Laetrile treatments. :rolleyes: This seems to be the REAL problem with those who are indoctrinated in Allopathic medicine--they tend not to step out of the box and research for themselves.

No, because we're too bust in labs, writing journals and doing epidemiology. While other "researchers" lack the certain tools depending on their computers and non accredited books. :rolleyes:

[pochy1776]

And by your logic you think you know the mind of Dr. Paul and that he is against anything to do with Laetrile treatments. :rolleyes: This seems to be the REAL problem with those who are indoctrinated in Allopathic medicine--they tend not to step out of the box and research for themselves.

Notice how i don;t negrep

[donnay]

No, because we're too bust in labs, writing journals and doing epidemiology. While other "researchers" lack the certain tools depending on their computers and non accredited books. :rolleyes:


*Smacks hand to forehead* Oh! that's right I forget how righteous you guys are. Mea Culpa...Maximum Mea Culpa. <Sarcasm OFF>

[cbrons]

And by your logic you think you know the mind of Dr. Paul and that he is against anything to do with Laetrile treatments. :rolleyes: This seems to be the REAL problem with those who are indoctrinated in Allopathic medicine--they tend not to step out of the box and research for themselves.

Do research for themselves? Are you kidding me? Do you consider reading Natural News and InfoWars to be "research"?

I pretend to know his mind? LOL! You're the one who said he is in favor of your idiotic fake vitamin treatments in the first place! I countered by pointing out that he is a doctor and a libertarian constitutionalist who would naturally support one's right to take whatever agent they want for whatever reason. The fact that he supports a bill for health freedom doesn't mean he supports the fake vitamin racket that all of you self-righteous health conspiracy psychos think are so great.

You want to hit a bong 5 times a day because you think it'll cure cancer or some other chronic illness? Go ahead! I couldn't care less. But stop demonizing people who follow the advice of actual doctors (not morons with personality disorders who write fake health websites in their basement).

"Laetrile" is a fake trade name for a fake vitamin. If you want to take it and give yourself a nice cyanide poisoning, that's within your right to do so. Don't expect me or other people with more than a wikipedia search/Alex Jones talking points education to sit here, smile, and nod at your stupidity.

[pcosmar]

Are you kidding me? Do you consider reading Natural News and InfoWars to be "research"?


No, I consider them to be publishing the research of others.

Perhaps YOU are confused by the difference.

[pochy1776]

*Smacks hand to forehead* Oh! that's right I forget how righteous you guys are. Mea Culpa...Maximum Mea Culpa. <Sarcasm OFF>

No, I am just being an asshole. This all started because Forum memebrs say i can;t have a gun due to me taking Pimozide. I have recently made some pretty bad comments and i am a very bad representative to the skeptic community. If you can send me links on your evidence, i thought i could have done the same. I recently reflected on my bad behaviour and realized i could have been much nicer. I am very sorry Donnay. How is New Hampshire.

Just do me a favor read this.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-dsm-v/

I did not mean to be so mean or facetious like i have been acting like for the past few days. But these topics hit close to home. I never did mean to discredit you Donnay, i just thought you lacked some science education. I realized that was demeaning. When i voiced my anger at you, you were very kind. When you voiced it at me, i was a brutal asshole. Please forgive me. (no sarcasm).

[pochy1776]

Hmm...... Their not a place like the Lancet or JAMA. THey seem to have some agendas.

[fisharmor]

But stop demonizing people who follow the advice of actual doctors (not morons with personality disorders who write fake health websites in their basement).

Well I was not demonizing people who follow doctors' advice... I was demonizing doctors.
Take a quick break from olfactorily sampling your own flatulence and you might recognize that Natural News is not the cause for people demonizing doctors, but is instead a reaction people are having to the piss poor service they're getting in mainstream medicine.

[cbrons]

you might recognize that Natural News is not the cause for people demonizing doctors, but is instead a reaction people are having to the piss poor service they're getting in mainstream medicine.

So you think these hack websites run by unqualified arm chair healthcare providers who write one idiotic article after another lamenting some vast conspiracy between MDs and "Big Pharma" has no effect on the average idiot who decides that instead of seeing a cardiologist, they'll go see a Shaman who can do a dance around them with ju-ju beeds or take ultra high (useless) doses of Vitamin C for their heart problem?

The piss poor service in mainstream medicine is caused by government. Absent a 3rd party payer system (private or public) you'd see much higher quality of care in all fields of medicine. Go to a so-called "concierge" doctor and you'll have the medical care that a first world country should be able to provide, but due to quotas, paperwork, and other bureaucratic BS, a 10min H&P is really all your average government/insurance doctor has time for if he wants to clear enough in income to pay back hundreds of thousands in loans and taxes... thats if they even have a choice in the matter, usually the hospital or physician group forces them to clear people in and out as fast as possible so it doesn't even matter what they want.

[Peace Piper]

You want to hit a bong 5 times a day because you think it'll cure cancer or some other chronic illness? Go ahead! I couldn't care less. .

Who the hell ever said that here? Please cite the quote. TIA

You obviously missed seeing every single credible quote I posted in #90 on this thread where research shows that the substance called THC has been shown to reduce tumors. By credible scientists. They weren't talking about smoking a bong. Cripes does anyone ever read previous posts?

[Peace Piper]

So you think these hack websites run by unqualified arm chair healthcare providers who write one idiotic article after another lamenting some vast conspiracy between MDs and "Big Pharma" has no effect on the average idiot who decides that instead of seeing a cardiologist, they'll go see a Shaman who can do a dance around them with ju-ju beeds or take ultra high (useless) doses of Vitamin C for their heart problem?

The piss poor service in mainstream medicine is caused by government. Absent a 3rd party payer system (private or public) you'd see much higher quality of care in all fields of medicine. Go to a so-called "concierge" doctor and you'll have the medical care that a first world country should be able to provide, but due to quotas, paperwork, and other bureaucratic BS, a 10min H&P is really all your average government/insurance doctor has time for if he wants to clear enough in income to pay back hundreds of thousands in loans and taxes... thats if they even have a choice in the matter, usually the hospital or physician group forces them to clear people in and out as fast as possible so it doesn't even matter what they want.

I've noticed that this topic tends to reveal closet authoritarians. It's fascinating.

[pochy1776]

I've noticed that this topic tends to reveal closet authoritarians. It's fascinating.

Is anybody a better libertarian is they oppose big pharma?

Cbrons has a radio show that blasts the establishment. He also promotes libertarian writers. Just because he does not share your views on medicine does not mean he is an authoritarian.

I have campaigned for ron paul in 2012, i went to the events waved the signs.

Are we any less libertarian just because we like modern medicine?

[presence]

#plausibledeniablilitySSRI

[coastie]

#plausibledeniablilitySSRI

Well, so far we have : Prozac Defense. Ambien Defense. Zoloft Defense. Paxil Defense. Effexor Defense. All have been used successfully in numerous murder/attempted murder/assault cases, google-fu will net a lot of them.


Is there a Marijuana Defense*? Alcohol? Cocaine? Heroin? Bath Salts? It amazes me just how far we've fallen where the people of this country allow such things as SSRI's and SNRI's to even exist. If people really knew that the pharma companies don't even really know how they work, the actual suicide data on these drugs, and what they do to the very core of your emotions-there would be NO market for them.






*I realize there were a multitude of cases defended successfully on the "Marijuana made me do it" angle, but this was also during a time they believed it made you turn into a bat and grow fangs, and if you were Mexican or African it made you want to rape white women.:rolleyes:

[donnay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmyMz023V30

[tod evans]

Legislation either authorizing or criminalizing the use of any drug is beyond the scope of any federal agency.

The public must be educated honestly and then permitted to choose their poison..


Well, so far we have : Prozac Defense. Ambien Defense. Zoloft Defense. Paxil Defense. Effexor Defense. All have been used successfully in numerous murder/attempted murder/assault cases, google-fu will net a lot of them.


Is there a Marijuana Defense*? Alcohol? Cocaine? Heroin? Bath Salts? It amazes me just how far we've fallen where the people of this country allow such things as SSRI's and SNRI's to even exist. If people really knew that the pharma companies don't even really know how they work, the actual suicide data on these drugs, and what they do to the very core of your emotions-there would be NO market for them.






*I realize there were a multitude of cases defended successfully on the "Marijuana made me do it" angle, but this was also during a time they believed it made you turn into a bat and grow fangs, and if you were Mexican or African it made you want to rape white women.:rolleyes:

[donnay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW8LNU2hFE

[coastie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW8LNU2hFE

Meh, people like cbrons will just dismiss her because she doesn't have letters behind her name.



Great vid, thanks, I'm adding it to my collection of pharma rep confessions.

[donnay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW8LNU2hFE



ETA:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEIg1as2ppc

[Peace Piper]

ETA:

yes those are fantastic, thx for posting, I've reposted and forwarded

She is articulate, smart and knows exactly what she's talking about.
Hard to argue with that, how soon does a WooWooer call her a scientologist?

[pochy1776]

yes those are fantastic, thx for posting, I've reposted and forwarded

She is articulate, smart and knows exactly what she's talking about.
Hard to argue with that, how soon does a WooWooer call her a scientologist?

Do you know a guy named steven novella?

[cbrons]

Meh, people like cbrons will just dismiss her because she doesn't have letters behind her name.



Great vid, thanks, I'm adding it to my collection of pharma rep confessions.

Pharm reps are some of the dumbest airheads I've ever met in medicine and yes they are typically uneducated and taught to recite talking points.

[pochy1776]

Pharm reps are some of the dumbest airheads I've ever met in medicine and yes they are typically uneducated and taught to recite talking points.

Don't say anything bad C, I would advice against it. It'll just get you banned.

[Peace Piper]

Pharm reps are some of the dumbest airheads I've ever met in medicine and yes they are typically uneducated and taught to recite talking points.

And THERE you have it, Ladies and Gentlemen.

How could the poster recognize talking points anyway?

They didn't bother looking at her video,because
if they did they wouldn't call her dumb. Or maybe they would.

One thing is for sure, if this poster is a medical professional, he/she flunked bedside manner.
Maybe that's like the Hippocratic Oath these days-subject to lawyer speak, and the meaning of "is".

Disgusting.

Edited to add: This Big Pharma Rep/Drug Pusher was good enough at suckering "educated Doctors" to keep her job for 15 years. What does THAT say about these "educated Doctors"?

To some people, being "educated" means mastering fact regurgitation. And they think everyone that doesn't eat their particular facts and spit them up on command is not "educated". It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[Peace Piper]

Do you know a guy named steven novella?

Now I do--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Novella

Novella is a medical advisor to Quackwatch,[3] an associate editor of the Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine,[4] and the executive editor of the blog Science-Based Medicine.[5] Among other topics, Novella has published on homeopathy[6][7] and AIDS denialism.[8] In 2009, he was the board chairman when the Institute for Science in Medicine was founded.[9] He has also taught a course for The Teaching Company titled "Medical Myths, Lies, and Half-Truths: What We Think We Know May Be Hurting Us."

Novella is president and co-founder of the New England Skeptical Society and hosts that organization's podcast, The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. He writes the monthly Weird Science column for the New Haven Advocate and contributes to several blogs. Novella has also appeared on several television programs, including Penn & Teller: Bullshit!.[10]

Novella was one of the first 200 to sign the Project Steve petition,[11] a tongue-in-cheek parody of the list of "scientists that doubt evolution" produced by creationists.
In January 2010 Novella was elected as a Fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry[12]
Novella keeps a blog, Neurologica, "your daily fix of neuroscience, skepticism and critical thinking"

********************

I don't need to know anymore about Novella, if I want establishment pablum all I have to do is turn on CNN and listen to that insufferable Sanjay Gupta or whatever his name is. Or any other spouters of "commonly accepted" bs, the same type of thinking that Galileo learned about.

Establishment medicine failed me twice, and both times these establishment "doctors" were not the least bit interested in what actually did work. Western medicine surely has it's place, and for treating symptoms it's very good. But these people are just people, with a hundred grand in debt to worry about. They make mistakes too.

Establishment medicine also drugged up my dear Mother and ruined the last "golden" years of her life. 14 pills and the God Damned "Doctor" had no explanation of WTF was going on when questioned about it. Then, the arrogant bitch treated me like I was "typically uneducated and taught to recite talking points." She was fired. More people need to do that-fire these arrogant jerks.

For those reasons, I am an enemy of Big Pharma and all health professionals without an open mind. Of course it's hard to keep an open mind when all your time is taken up trying to figure out how to pay back student loans.

[donnay]

I have nothing but contempt for these allopathic doctors who cannot think for themselves and treat each patient on an individual bases. I am currently in a situation that is very rapidly turning into a Cluster Fuck because of a couple of doctors who like using Big Pharma to drug their patients into oblivion. Then when they are ordered (by me and my family) to cease and desist all mind altering drugs, they try telling me that my aging parents have dementia and early stages of Alzheimer's.

So Chris Bronson spare me with your blah, blah, blah, nonsense about how Big Pharma reps are dumb. Because many of us, who have paid attention know that Big Pharma reps are cunning and conniving and are paid big bucks to be that way. They also are the wheelers and dealers out there giving doctors the incentives to push these drugs on unwitting people--especially the elderly!

Sources:
Pharmaceutical firm caught in kickback scheme (http://www.examiner.com/article/pharmaceutical-firm-caught-kickback-scheme)

Doctors rarely face consequences for taking pharmaceutical kickbacks (http://www.ohiomedicalattorneysblog.com/2011/09/doctors-rarely-face-consequences-for-taking-pharmaceutical-kickbacks.shtml)

Docs on Pharma Payroll Have Blemished Records, Limited Credentials (http://www.propublica.org/article/dollars-to-doctors-physician-disciplinary-records)

[coastie]

Meh, people like cbrons will just dismiss her because she doesn't have letters behind her name.



Great vid, thanks, I'm adding it to my collection of pharma rep confessions.


Pharm reps are some of the dumbest airheads I've ever met in medicine and yes they are typically uneducated and taught to recite talking points.



Told ya.



The problem with people like you in this industry is you think because people aren't as "smart"(haha) as you, then ANYTHING they say regarding these meds is dismissible. You are EXACTLY like the Doctors we were exposed to when my wife(and several other family members/friends) was prescribed these BULLSHIT meds. Exactly like them. We tell you about these side effects, you dismiss it, and usually in the same condescending tone you use here. Because, after all, we're all just uneducated idiots. We're not capable of recognizing something wrong with someone we're with EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THEIR LIVES, as opposed to quacks like yourself who see patients at most every couple of months. One of her doctors only saw her every six months. So, clearly, you would know better than the patient's families, right?

Further, this isn't a shot just towards the psychiatric industry...most of my wife's doctors were all Neurologists prescribing the SSRI's....In fact, the only thing that actually helped my wife at times was Xanax, and that was prescribed by a Psychiatrist who saw her for all of 5 minutes, and we never physically stepped foot in his office again, all while he "treated" her with refills and short conversations over the phone with his head nurse for over a year. Those conversations were "Oh, you need a refill, OK, come pick it up whenever you're ready".

My wife was on twice the recommend dose for Effexor, Lamictal and Kepra - all at the same time, because of narcissists like yourself. People like yourself ignored the warnings and side effects, until it almost killed her via gran mal seizures. Twice. Then, you'd just prescribe MORE medicine, because there's just NO WAY it could be the meds causing it, even though potentially fatal/unstoppable seizures are listed on the box as a potential adverse side effect.

She now has permanent brain damage from those meds, and those seizures. If we were still seeing people like you, she'd probably be dead now. Think about the dosages she was on, then explain to me how she doesn't take ANY medicine now, and has NO problems whatsoever(aside from the damage they caused) seizure related(which was the original "problem" that landed her on these meds)? It doesn't take a medical degree to figure it out.

I suggest you find another line of work, before you end up killing someone, or pissing a family member/ spouse off with your condescending and dismissive attitude to the point they yank you over your desk, like I did to one of her doctors. I only wish I could be a picture on the wall of your office to witness it.



ETA: I'm sure the fact that ALL of her doctors were receiving, at minimum, 12k/per year from different pharma companies had nothing to do with her or others being prescribed these drugs. One doctor received nearly 230k in 2008 alone from the company that makes Effexor. He had her on twice the recommend dose. Nothing to see there.

[pochy1776]

I have nothing but contempt for these allopathic doctors who cannot think for themselves and treat each patient on an individual bases. I am currently in a situation that is very rapidly turning into a Cluster Fuck because of a couple of doctors who like using Big Pharma to drug their patients into oblivion. Then when they are ordered (by me and my family) to cease and desist all mind altering drugs, they try telling me that my aging parents have dementia and early stages of Alzheimer's.

So Chris Bronson spare me with your blah, blah, blah, nonsense about how Big Pharma reps are dumb. Because many of us, who have paid attention know that Big Pharma reps are cunning and conniving and are paid big bucks to be that way. They also are the wheelers and dealers out there giving doctors the incentives to push these drugs on unwitting people--especially the elderly!

Sources:
Pharmaceutical firm caught in kickback scheme (http://www.examiner.com/article/pharmaceutical-firm-caught-kickback-scheme)

Doctors rarely face consequences for taking pharmaceutical kickbacks (http://www.ohiomedicalattorneysblog.com/2011/09/doctors-rarely-face-consequences-for-taking-pharmaceutical-kickbacks.shtml)

Docs on Pharma Payroll Have Blemished Records, Limited Credentials (http://www.propublica.org/article/dollars-to-doctors-physician-disciplinary-records)

Its his opinion. Not mine or anybody else's. Calm Down. You guys are taking this too seriously. What if the evil doctors were right. What if your mother DID (hypothetical)have dementia and/or signs of Alzheimers.

[pochy1776]

Now I do--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Novella

Novella is a medical advisor to Quackwatch,[3] an associate editor of the Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine,[4] and the executive editor of the blog Science-Based Medicine.[5] Among other topics, Novella has published on homeopathy[6][7] and AIDS denialism.[8] In 2009, he was the board chairman when the Institute for Science in Medicine was founded.[9] He has also taught a course for The Teaching Company titled "Medical Myths, Lies, and Half-Truths: What We Think We Know May Be Hurting Us."

Novella is president and co-founder of the New England Skeptical Society and hosts that organization's podcast, The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. He writes the monthly Weird Science column for the New Haven Advocate and contributes to several blogs. Novella has also appeared on several television programs, including Penn & Teller: Bullshit!.[10]

Novella was one of the first 200 to sign the Project Steve petition,[11] a tongue-in-cheek parody of the list of "scientists that doubt evolution" produced by creationists.
In January 2010 Novella was elected as a Fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry[12]
Novella keeps a blog, Neurologica, "your daily fix of neuroscience, skepticism and critical thinking"

********************

I don't need to know anymore about Novella, if I want establishment pablum all I have to do is turn on CNN and listen to that insufferable Sanjay Gupta or whatever his name is. Or any other spouters of "commonly accepted" bs, the same type of thinking that Galileo learned about.

Establishment medicine failed me twice, and both times these establishment "doctors" were not the least bit interested in what actually did work. Western medicine surely has it's place, and for treating symptoms it's very good. But these people are just people, with a hundred grand in debt to worry about. They make mistakes too.

Establishment medicine also drugged up my dear Mother and ruined the last "golden" years of her life. 14 pills and the God Damned "Doctor" had no explanation of WTF was going on when questioned about it. Then, the arrogant bitch treated me like I was "typically uneducated and taught to recite talking points." She was fired. More people need to do that-fire these arrogant jerks.

For those reasons, I am an enemy of Big Pharma and all health professionals without an open mind. Of course it's hard to keep an open mind when all your time is taken up trying to figure out how to pay back student loans.

Steven Novella is definitely not an establishment hack. Read his blog, its very educating.

[pochy1776]

Okay Donnary, PeacePiper all of you. You Win. Vaccines and SSRIs are bad. But don;t discount Cbrons for being a medical student, just because he made a few snarky comments. Cbrons is a libertarian Like YOU Like ME. Not closet authoritarians. If you really think that, then your no better then the evil doctors.

[donnay]

Its his opinion. Not mine or anybody else's. Calm Down. You guys are taking this too seriously. What if the evil doctors were right. What if your mother DID (hypothetical)have dementia and/or signs of Alzheimers.


My mother was lucid and fully aware prior to going into the hospital with the flu. And prior to that, three years ago my father had a mini-stroke yet he, too, was lucid and fully aware and now he is in a skilled nursing facility in a fetal position, hooked up to a ventilation through a tracheostomy tube and has a feeding tube which doles out synthetic baby food to him in increments. We went through this before so I think I know what I am talking about. The only problem is my parents live 1800 miles from me and I could not be with my father every step of the way--for this I truly regret.

Nevertheless, I intend to be by my mother's side for how ever long it takes to get her well and I will buck the establishment for how ever long it takes to get her released into my care! Once my mother is well, then I will work on getting my father released into my care as well!

I am as mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.

[pochy1776]

My mother was lucid and fully aware prior to going into the hospital with the flu. And prior to that, three years ago my father had a mini-stroke yet he, too, was lucid and fully aware and now he is in a skilled nursing facility in a fetal position, hooked up to a ventilation through a tracheostomy tube and has a feeding tube which doles out synthetic baby food to him in increments. We went through this before so I think I know what I am talking about. The only problem is my parents live 1800 miles from me and I could not be with my father every step of the way--for this I truly regret.

Nevertheless, I intend to be by my mother's side for how ever long it takes to get her well and I will buck the establishment for how ever long it takes to get her released into my care! Once my mother is well, then I will work on getting my father released into my care as well!

I am as mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.

I am very sorry for being insensitive.

[pochy1776]

My mother was lucid and fully aware prior to going into the hospital with the flu. And prior to that, three years ago my father had a mini-stroke yet he, too, was lucid and fully aware and now he is in a skilled nursing facility in a fetal position, hooked up to a ventilation through a tracheostomy tube and has a feeding tube which doles out synthetic baby food to him in increments. We went through this before so I think I know what I am talking about. The only problem is my parents live 1800 miles from me and I could not be with my father every step of the way--for this I truly regret.

Nevertheless, I intend to be by my mother's side for how ever long it takes to get her well and I will buck the establishment for how ever long it takes to get her released into my care! Once my mother is well, then I will work on getting my father released into my care as well!

I am as mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore.

You must be very persistent on getting them back. That is some serious love for parents. I commend.

[UpperDecker]

I can no longer defend doctors after my last visit. This guy was trying to push the schizophrenia angle on me when I had no symptoms whatsoever. He would ask me about what kind of things I was hearing when I had never mentioned hearing things. It made me wonder what is agenda really was and if he actually wanted to help me.

[DamianTV]

I can no longer defend doctors after my last visit. This guy was trying to push the schizophrenia angle on me when I had no symptoms whatsoever. He would ask me about what kind of things I was hearing when I had never mentioned hearing things. It made me wonder what is agenda really was and if he actually wanted to help me.

Maybe its possible that Doctor had schizophrenia. It isnt like we get a choice to have a real chemical imbalance, but I do believe that medications that Doctors precribe are done so to keep people passive, not aid with their condition.

[coastie]

I can no longer defend doctors after my last visit. This guy was trying to push the schizophrenia angle on me when I had no symptoms whatsoever. He would ask me about what kind of things I was hearing when I had never mentioned hearing things. It made me wonder what is agenda really was and if he actually wanted to help me.

Go this website, plug in your doctors name, and you may have your answer as to who is influencing his diagnoses. All of my wife's former doctors are represented well there.

http://www.propublica.org/series/dollars-for-docs