OK - Arrest at hospital over two pills leaves pregnant women dead in jail.

[Anti Federalist]

There is something VERY FUCKING WRONG in a country where a person is FUCKING DYING goes to the hospital to try and save their life and gets THROWN IN FUCKING JAIL TO DIE and the response is, "Oh well, sorry Mundane, didn't meann to kill your loved one, but policy was followed."

I will, seriously, punch square in the fucking face the very next motherfucker who dares to tell me to calm the fuck down.



Pregnant Pauls Valley mother dies in jail

Posted on: 4:05 pm, January 7, 2013,
by Jesse Wells, updated on: 06:12pm, January 7, 2013

http://kfor.com/2013/01/07/pregnant-pauls-valley-mother-dies-in-jail/

PAULS VALLEY, Okla. – A Pauls Valley family is forced to deal with tragedy after a 33-year-old mother dies from a medical condition while being held at the Garvin County jail.

The victim in this case is Jamie Lynn Russell.

Jamie also used the last name of Fisher.

Her death came just hours after she went to the hospital seeking help for severe abdominal pain.

“Jamie was seeking help; she was in extreme pain,” family friend Kemper Kimberlin said.

Hospital staff reported Jamie wouldn’t cooperate, in too much pain to even lie down, so employees asked a Pauls Valley police officer to assist.

Unfortunately, when police found two prescription pills that didn’t belong to Jamie, police took her to jail for drug possession.

That’s where Jamie sat for less than two hours before being found unresponsive.

“There is nothing my staff in the jail could’ve done differently,” Garvin County sheriff Larry Rhodes said.

Sheriff Rhodes points out the hospital staff authorized Jamie’s release to their custody.

“She had a medical release from the hospital stating that she was fit for incarceration,” Rhodes said.

The state medical examiner’s office confirms Jamie died from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, where an embryo implants outside the uterus.

“It’s very regrettable for the family,” Rhodes said. “My heart and prayers go out to them.”

Still, those who knew Jamie blame the hospital staff, not the sheriff, for neglecting to care for the 33-year-old pregnant mother.

“We want to see this come to light,” Kemper said. “Something’s wrong and needs to be fixed.”

The sheriff did call in the OSBI to investigate.

A spokesperson for that agency said their investigation is basically complete.

They did not find any criminal wrongdoing on the part of the jail staff.

[sailingaway]

did I not say I didn't post this so people wouldn't be upset???

:(

This was just so incredibly depressing.

[James Madison]

Still, those who knew Jamie blame the hospital staff, not the sheriff, for neglecting to care for the 33-year-old pregnant mother.

Wow. They killed your friend/family member and you still defend these monsters.


They did not find any criminal wrongdoing on the part of the jail staff.

Haha! Justice in this country really is dead.

[MelissaWV]

Wow. They killed your friend/family member and you still defend these monsters.



Haha! Justice in this country really is dead.

On the first point, I actually agree with the family. The cops are definitely not qualified to say whether someone is or isn't medically fit. The hospital obviously didn't even examine her, and then said she was medically okay to be tossed in jail? The cops were being no worse than one would expect (they didn't shoot or tase her, as AF would point out). The hospital staff here is brutal. First do no harm. Why on earth was a cop the first person they called over to assist? Why did that much pain and cramping not merit an immediate rush to be examined? The hospital screwed up bigtime. I have a pretty good hunch that, even without the cop there, this woman would have died in the waiting room.

[TheTexan]

It does kind of piss me off that shit like this goes unnoticed, but if they try to take our guns, all hell will pay.

The 2nd amendment wasn't designed to protect itself.. it was designed to protect against tyranny like this.

What the fuck is the point of the 2nd amendment if you only use it to protect the 2nd amendment?

[pacodever]

Well, I hope they sue the hospital for medical malpractice. That will make them think twice before getting the police involved.

[Danke]

" Unfortunately, when police found two prescription pills that didn’t belong to Jamie, police took her to jail for drug possession."

omg. I went to Walgreen today to get some more Claritin D. (it is over the counter).

They refused 'cause I got some the week before. So I had to whip out the doctor's prescription. What a joke.

[tod evans]

2 pills eh?

Yet another body added to the tally....:mad:

[AGRP]

Hospitals fault. Get ready for a healthy lawsuit stemming from prohibition.

[pacodever]

Totally missed this was in my home fascist state of Oklahoma. Figures.

[AGRP]

Well, I hope they sue the hospital for medical malpractice. That will make them think twice before getting the police involved.

Or how about common sense? The woman was in massive pain and they expected her to contort her body at their whim without considering her pain? I would avoid that hospital if thats how theyre trained.

[Danke]

A side note. having effective pain killers, while not being proscribe to you, is a good idea.

I have been heard about people being in foreign countries when everything was closed with a terrible toothache. They were close to suicide if it weren't for codeine.

[pacodever]

Or how about common sense? The woman was in massive pain and they expected her to contort her body at their whim without considering her pain? I would avoid that hospital if thats how theyre trained.

True, you would think the hospital would just page a couple orderlies or their own security. Either way, the hospital is at fault for substandard care. Any criminal investigation or law enforcement needs to wait until the health of the patient is ensured.

Now I am worried that many hospitals in the US have their own police forces. Hopefully they are better trained than the county sheriff in this case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_police

[paulbot24]

Where did they "find" these pills? She was also in extreme pain and they are asking her questions like "Where did you get these pills? Is this your prescription?" and wasting precious time when they should be asking "Where is your pain?" or "When did this start?" Jesus people, your priority is the human being first. This is outrageous. Where is their training? What next? If they see somebody bleeding in a car accident, they check their blood/alcohol level and run a search for warrants before the person is "worthy" to be put in an ambulance? Actually, now that we basically have nationalized healthcare, that wouldn't surprise me. It actually wouldn't surprise me.

[angelatc]

Or how about common sense? The woman was in massive pain and they expected her to contort her body at their whim without considering her pain? I would avoid that hospital if thats how theyre trained.

It's all about the control. Submit or die.

[bolil]

If doctors were involved in this decision, they violated their Hippocratic oath making themselves, with no shortage of semantic irony, hypocrites. This is terrible.

[pacodever]

Where did they "find" these pills? She was also in extreme pain and they are asking her questions like "Where did you get these pills? Is this your prescription?" and wasting precious time when they should be asking "Where is your pain?" or "When did this start?" Jesus people, your priority is the human being first. This is outrageous. Where is their training? What next? If they see somebody bleeding in a car accident, they check their blood/alcohol level and run a search for warrants before the person is "worthy" to be put in an ambulance? Actually, now that we basically have nationalized healthcare, that wouldn't surprise me. It actually wouldn't surprise me.

Don't show up to the hospital without a prescription slip or you will die in jail.

[jkr]

these are NOT the death panels were looking for...

everything we warned them of is already here

pain & rationing 2013

[sailingaway]

If doctors were involved in this decision, they violated their Hippocratic oath making themselves, with no shortage of semantic irony, hypocrites. This is terrible.
Ron says they don't even give the proper Hippocratic oath anymore, that Rand had to pay to go to a special ceremony and they left out the part about harming no life (I forget the exact words.)

Now why would they change the Hippocratic oath?

[presence]

I have something to say about this I just can't put it into words yet.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRajtm8F1qqo7ljoaQR9WScdVNmejGSn vx7ZFdX44w_id6p2e_A8Q

[Anti Federalist]

Now why would they change the Hippocratic oath?

We all know the answer to that.

[Occam's Banana]

Ron says they don't even give the proper Hippocratic oath anymore, that Rand had to pay to go to a special ceremony and they left out the part about harming no life (I forget the exact words.)

Now why would they change the Hippocratic oath?

Why would they even need to? After all, presidents & congressmen take an oath they have no desire or intention of keeping, and they get away with it.

[Occam's Banana]

Unfortunately, when police found two prescription pills that didn’t belong to Jamie, police took her to jail for drug possession.

Found? How? Under what circumstances?

And they think the police don't share in the responsibility? Bullshit! They threw the victim in a cage - for two measly goddam pills, for chrissakes!

So: the cops try to pad their arrest statistics and a person dies as a result - for something that can't even amount to "intent to distribute" (not that that would have made it any more acceptable).

Well, maybe they'll get a promotion down the road - at least then it couldn't be said that they killed this woman for absolutely nothing whatsoever ...

[AFPVet]

Why did the hospital release her to the deputies? That's a lawsuit.

[Anti Federalist]

////

[thoughtomator]

This is murder no matter how many excuses are piled on.

[kathy88]

She was in too much pain to cooperate so they called the cops. Seriously? Fuck you mundane bitch. How dare you be in too much pain to cooperate.

[Mach]

Was reading through the local news comments (http://kfor.com/2013/01/07/pregnant-pauls-valley-mother-dies-in-jail/)..... hospital complaints.

Pauls Valley General Hospital

http://www.pvgh.net/index.html

[Anti Federalist]

A side note. having effective pain killers, while not being proscribe to you, is a good idea.

I have been heard about people being in foreign countries when everything was closed with a terrible toothache. They were close to suicide if it weren't for codeine.

Reported.

[Danke]

Reported.

Intercepted.

[Mach]

Reported.


Intercepted.

:toady:

[Origanalist]

This is one more I knew I should not read and did.

mumbles incoherently

[Origanalist]

Was reading through the local news comments (http://kfor.com/2013/01/07/pregnant-pauls-valley-mother-dies-in-jail/)..... hospital complaints.

Pauls Valley General Hospital

http://www.pvgh.net/index.html


This is very worrisome. It's not unusual for adult women to be carrying medications tat don't belong to us. I try to avoid it, because I understand this is being increasingly demonized by our crazy police state. We end up carrying these medications because we're the ones who are the primary caregivers and we're the ones who pick up the prescription from the pharmacy. If it's a controlled substance, we end up placing it in our purses rather than leaving it in our cars because we don't want an addict to steal them from the car while we're running errends.

The war on drugs is taking far to heavy a toll on the lives of innocent Americans. We need a cease fire in this war, so we can live our sane lives in safety and peace. This poor woman should have been treated for her pain, not abused and neglected on so flimsy a pretext.


//

[Brian4Liberty]

Hospital staff reported Jamie wouldn’t cooperate, in too much pain to even lie down, so employees asked a Pauls Valley police officer to assist.

There's the key. Contempt of the all-powerful hospital staff. Similar to contempt of cop. How dare you question the all-powerful.


It's all about the control. Submit or die.

Got that right. Very little difference between Hospitals and Prisons. You have no rights, you are a prisoner. Submit or die indeed.

[Nirvikalpa]

I posted this basically in the other thread, but there's no way in hell those nurses and doctors didn't understand the seriousness of the woman's condition, considering I am only an EMT and we are taught “any severe abdominal pain in a female patient of childbearing age is an ectopic pregnancy until proven otherwise.”

I want to know, under what premise, was she "cleared for incarceration." Her pulse/blood pressure (besides the obvious PAIN LEVEL) was probably enough to go "gee, that's odd, lets palpate the area for tenderness and get an ultrasound."

First thing any medical professional should assume when dealing with a woman in severe pain, of childbearing age, is ectopic pregnancy, and rule out problems via their symptoms, vitals, palpation, lab work, etc etc.

I also want to point out there is a difference between someone being in "pain" and being in pain. With an ectopic pregnancy, there's really no way for a medical professional to think it's just "pain," especially as severe as it seemed to be for her (in shock and dead two hours later? She was probably rupturing at the hospital, or soon thereafter).

[phill4paul]

I posted this basically in the other thread, but there's no way in hell those nurses and doctors didn't understand the seriousness of the woman's condition, considering I am only an EMT and we are taught “any severe abdominal pain in a female patient of childbearing age is an ectopic pregnancy until proven otherwise.”

I want to know, under what premise, was she "cleared for incarceration." Her pulse/blood pressure (besides the obvious PAIN LEVEL) was probably enough to go "gee, that's odd, lets palpate the area for tenderness and get an ultrasound."

First thing any medical professional should assume when dealing with a woman in severe pain, of childbearing age, is ectopic pregnancy, and rule out problems via their symptoms, vitals, palpation, lab work, etc etc.

I also want to point out there is a difference between someone being in "pain" and being in pain. With an ectopic pregnancy, there's really no way for a medical professional to think it's just "pain," especially as severe as it seemed to be for her (in shock and dead two hours later? She was probably rupturing at the hospital, or soon thereafter).

YOU are in the position of being extremely acquainted with this situations. Will you do us the favor of contacting the hospital and getting us the information we need?

[Philhelm]

This is so obscene...

[PaulConventionWV]

There is something VERY FUCKING WRONG in a country where a person is FUCKING DYING goes to the hospital to try and save their life and gets THROWN IN FUCKING JAIL TO DIE and the response is, "Oh well, sorry Mundane, didn't meann to kill your loved one, but policy was followed."

I will, seriously, punch square in the fucking face the very next motherfucker who dares to tell me to calm the fuck down.



Pregnant Pauls Valley mother dies in jail

Posted on: 4:05 pm, January 7, 2013,
by Jesse Wells, updated on: 06:12pm, January 7, 2013

http://kfor.com/2013/01/07/pregnant-pauls-valley-mother-dies-in-jail/

PAULS VALLEY, Okla. – A Pauls Valley family is forced to deal with tragedy after a 33-year-old mother dies from a medical condition while being held at the Garvin County jail.

The victim in this case is Jamie Lynn Russell.

Jamie also used the last name of Fisher.

Her death came just hours after she went to the hospital seeking help for severe abdominal pain.

“Jamie was seeking help; she was in extreme pain,” family friend Kemper Kimberlin said.

Hospital staff reported Jamie wouldn’t cooperate, in too much pain to even lie down, so employees asked a Pauls Valley police officer to assist.

Unfortunately, when police found two prescription pills that didn’t belong to Jamie, police took her to jail for drug possession.

That’s where Jamie sat for less than two hours before being found unresponsive.

“There is nothing my staff in the jail could’ve done differently,” Garvin County sheriff Larry Rhodes said.

Sheriff Rhodes points out the hospital staff authorized Jamie’s release to their custody.

“She had a medical release from the hospital stating that she was fit for incarceration,” Rhodes said.

The state medical examiner’s office confirms Jamie died from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, where an embryo implants outside the uterus.

“It’s very regrettable for the family,” Rhodes said. “My heart and prayers go out to them.”

Still, those who knew Jamie blame the hospital staff, not the sheriff, for neglecting to care for the 33-year-old pregnant mother.

“We want to see this come to light,” Kemper said. “Something’s wrong and needs to be fixed.”

The sheriff did call in the OSBI to investigate.

A spokesperson for that agency said their investigation is basically complete.

They did not find any criminal wrongdoing on the part of the jail staff.

The investigation is "basically complete".

[Tpoints]

Responsibility being pushed around. So what does she have to possess to be justly arrested?

[Tpoints]

There's the key. Contempt of the all-powerful hospital staff. Similar to contempt of cop. How dare you question the all-powerful.

Got that right. Very little difference between Hospitals and Prisons. You have no rights, you are a prisoner. Submit or die indeed.

Unless you own the hospital, you are on their land and premise, they make the rules

[kathy88]

Responsibility being pushed around. So what does she have to possess to be justly arrested?you can't be serious?

[roho76]

Unless you own the hospital, you are on their land and premise, they make the rules

Just because you go on someone else's property to utilize its services as advertised does not give them the right to forcefully hand you over to their local serial killers to be locked up and murdered. Your understanding of property rights and business ethics is distorted at best. Both parties are in the wrong. They should all be charged with murder, endangering a child, kidnapping, and assault, as well as some others, I'm sure.

[Anti Federalist]

Unless you own the hospital, you are on their land and premise, they make the rules

See, this is exactly my point...

[leverguy]

So what does she have to possess to be justly arrested?

There is no such thing as a "just arrest" for simply possessing something. The law may provide for it, but it is by no means "just". Any law that attempts to criminalize mere possession of anything is inherently unjust, and therefore arbitrary and capricious.

This is a case where enforcement of the letter of the law runs contrary to the spirit of the law. If the purpose of "pain killers" is to control pain, then how does the use of them to control pain constitute an abuse of the drug?

[acptulsa]

I blame both the incompetent hospital and the totalitarian sheriff. I'm all about county sheriffs, as the only law enforcement agencies called for in the Constitution, being the ultimate arbiter of what goes on in their counties. But I have seen too many totalitarian county sheriffs in Oklahoma (and elsewhere, but unfortunately our state is something of a poster child for this) to completely trust a population's ability to judge their sheriff correctly. I hope this incident gets Mr. 'Our hearts and Prayers go out to the family' tossed out on his ear in the next election.

Yeah, this hospital doesn't measure up. Few rural hospitals do. But I can't help but believe that a large part of the problem is the sheriff. That sheriff's office seems to have this hospital cowed. And this is the inevitable result of doctors being cowed by authority.

The War on Drugs is a War on Us whether anyone intends it to be or not. That's the nice thing about sticking to American principles--they cut down on unintended consequences. Drugs may have their own evils (and they do, especially the legal ones). But the evils of the War on Drugs seems to have the evils of drugs licked six ways from Sunday. Anyone heard any good 'lesser of evils' arguments lately?

[Brian4Liberty]

Unless you own the hospital, you are on their land and premise, they make the rules

Not when it comes to holding you prisoner or violating your rights.

Your concept of property rights seems to come from Zed and Maynard:


Maynard: Nobody kills anybody in my place of business 'cept me or Zed.

[sailingaway]

Not when it comes to holding you prisoner or violating your rights.

\
Maybe this is why they changed the Hippocratic Oath (as Ron says they have), so you could turn over someone who is in too much pain to cooperate to the police to let them die out of your sight.

[Brian4Liberty]

\
Maybe this is why they changed the Hippocratic Oath (as Ron says they have), so you could turn over someone who is in too much pain to cooperate to the police to let them die out of your sight.

Hospital customer guarantee:

"If you are not satisfied with our service, too bad, our affiliates at the local law enforcement agency will make sure you are appropriately served."

[asurfaholic]

I sent the hospital an email. Hoping they respond. I was respectful enough, even though it was really hard to be so.

[acptulsa]

I was never terribly fond of using I-35 to get to Dallas. Now it actually scares me.

U.S. 69 for the win. Just don't give those money grubbers in Atoka a chance to nab you. The Indian Nations Turnpike is a nice drive. A little out of the way, and definitely overpriced, but pretty country...

[Tpoints]

you can't be serious?

You don't think I'm serious when I am asking when a person can or should be arrested? Do you think they never should be?

[Tpoints]

I sent the hospital an email. Hoping they respond. I was respectful enough, even though it was really hard to be so.

Don't you think the media tried already?

[Tpoints]

Not when it comes to holding you prisoner or violating your rights.

Your concept of property rights seems to come from Zed and Maynard:

they were not, she was free to leave, she was just too sick and in pain to want to.

[Tpoints]

Just because you go on someone else's property to utilize its services as advertised does not give them the right to forcefully hand you over to their local serial killers to be locked up and murdered.

actually it does, especially if they asked you to leave and gave you a warning.

[sailingaway]

Don't you think the media tried already?

They won't get a feel for public approbation from the media.

And no, I don't think that a person in great pain in a hospital for treatment BEFORE getting that treatment should be taken away on two prescription pills belonging to someone else. Any Samaritan who had pain pills who had a loved one in THAT level of pain might feel (rightly or wrongly from a medical perspective) that they wanted to share their pills until that person could get to the hospital. It needent be someone who typically diverted their prescriptions to anyone else, and if you are in pain to the point where you can't control yourself accepting them is something I think few juries would condemn you for.

Why couldn't they wait?

[Anti Federalist]

they were not, she was free to leave, she was just too sick and in pain to want to.

That's where you are wrong.

You are not "free to leave" when you submit yourself to the government/medical complex.

The corporate medical tyrants turned her over to the government tyrants, who threw her in a piss filled cage to die in agony on the floor.

Served and protected the shit outta her.

[sailingaway]

actually it does, especially if they asked you to leave and gave you a warning.

actually, I'm not sure it does if they are in too much pain to take care of themselves. I know there are some property rights abridgements recognized - people who were lost and dying of starvation and cold (in times when communication and transportation were less efficient) breaking into a cabin in a blizzard and only took food and firewood... they had to pay recompense, but they had not committed actionable (but for restitution) trespass nor burglary, because they had no other options....

[Anti Federalist]

actually it does, especially if they asked you to leave and gave you a warning.

You're just trolling now.

Nobody was asked to leave.


Hospital staff reported Jamie wouldn’t cooperate, in too much pain to even lie down, so employees asked a Pauls Valley police officer to assist.

Unfortunately, when police found two prescription pills that didn’t belong to Jamie, police took her to jail for drug possession.

They called the cops because, just like everybody else, the second things go the slightest bit sideways and you might have to "deal with something" Boobus calls a fucking cop.

Officer Friendly then showed up, illegally searched her somehow or another, and threw her ass in a cage to die because of two pills.

Not because she was asked to leave or was "trespassing".

I'd be really angry if I thought you were actually serious and not playing games, Josh.

[Tpoints]

That's where you are wrong.

You are not "free to leave" when you submit yourself to the government/medical complex.

The corporate medical tyrants turned her over to the government tyrants, who threw her in a piss filled cage to die in agony on the floor.

Served and protected the shit outta her.

How do you know she was not, or that in every case you are not free to leave? Also, do you advise people to stay away from such facilities? I'm sure she'd still be alive if she did, right?

[Tpoints]

You're just trolling now.

Nobody was asked to leave.



Nobody was asked to leave? How do you know that?

[sailingaway]

Nobody was asked to leave? How do you know that?

because they called the police to assist them with a patient, not to evict someone.

[Tpoints]

actually, I'm not sure it does if they are in too much pain to take care of themselves. I know there are some property rights abridgements recognized - people who were lost and dying of starvation and cold (in times when communication and transportation were less efficient) breaking into a cabin in a blizzard and only took food and firewood... they had to pay recompense, but they had not committed actionable (but for restitution) trespass nor burglary, because they had no other options....

so if I can't find a place to buy my alcohol I can break into somebody's house and say "I had no other options"? Where do you get this idea that property is limited to healthy people and people in pain get a free pass? What definition of property says "there are exceptions and loopholes"?

[Tpoints]

because they called the police to assist them with a patient, not to evict someone.

they didn't have to if she left, did they?

[Anti Federalist]

Nobody was asked to leave? How do you know that?

I don't.

I wasn't there.

But the printed account backs up my version of the story and not yours.

Nowhere was it stated that she was asked to leave.

[asurfaholic]

They won't get a feel for public approbation from the media.

And no, I don't think that a person in great pain in a hospital for treatment BEFORE getting that treatment should be taken away on two prescription pills belonging to someone else. Any Samaritan who had pain pills who had a loved one in THAT level of pain might feel (rightly or wrongly from a medical perspective) that they wanted to share their pills until that person could get to the hospital. It needent be someone who typically diverted their prescriptions to anyone else, and if you are in pain to the point where you can't control yourself accepting them is something I think few juries would condemn you for.

Why couldn't they wait?

Exactly, whats to say the pills didn't belong to her husband or mother. A basic requirement for getting thrown in jail is something called mens rae. You need a guilty mind, someone going through extreme pain - so much that they aquire pain meds in a unconventional method, is hardly someone who needs to spend time in jail. Especially during the course of the emergency. My wife is an OB Nurse (RN). Cant wait to get her opinion of this story. Also I know some liberty loving doctors - will forward this one.

[Tpoints]

I don't.

I wasn't there.

But the printed account backs up my version of the story and not yours.

Nowhere was it stated that she was asked to leave.

And nowhere states she wasn't free to leave either. I think I figured you out now, when in doubt, BLAME THE GUBMINT! A person dead is never guilty!

[Tpoints]

Exactly, whats to say the pills didn't belong to her husband or mother. A basic requirement for getting thrown in jail is something called mens rae. You need a guilty mind, someone going through extreme pain - so much that they aquire pain meds in a unconventional method, is hardly someone who needs to spend time in jail. Especially during the course of the emergency. My wife is an OB Nurse (RN). Cant wait to get her opinion of this story. Also I know some liberty loving doctors - will forward this one.

Mens rea goes away when you are talking about criminal negligence or strict liability crimes.

[sailingaway]

so if I can't find a place to buy my alcohol I can break into somebody's house and say "I had no other options"? Where do you get this idea that property is limited to healthy people and people in pain get a free pass? What definition of property says "there are exceptions and loopholes"?

no, it has to be life or death.

[Anti Federalist]

And nowhere states she wasn't free to leave either.

Before or AFTER Officer Friendly cuffed her?

Again, she was not arrested for trespassing or making a disturbance, she was arrested for two prescription pills that somehow, through an illegal search most likely, got "found".

[sailingaway]

And nowhere states she wasn't free to leave either. I think I figured you out now, when in doubt, BLAME THE GUBMINT! A person dead is never guilty!

It says she was in too much pain to even get up on a table, at a place which advertised itself as being there for people delivered even in a coma. False advertising?

Because in that pain I am sure she went/was taken to the place they understood would help her, not having time to mess around. As she clearly didn't have time, given her death thereafter.

[Brian4Liberty]

they were not, she was free to leave, she was just too sick and in pain to want to.

How do you know that?

[Tpoints]

How do you know that?

The same way everybody here seems to know she wasn't.

[Tpoints]

Before or AFTER Officer Friendly cuffed her?

Again, she was not arrested for trespassing or making a disturbance, she was arrested for two prescription pills that somehow, through an illegal search most likely, got "found".

Before, all the way until the cops arrived. There is no use for a cop if a person isn't on your property, unless they violated your property and committed a crime.

[sailingaway]

The same way everybody here seems to know she wasn't.

you didn't respond to my recital of indications she was not free to leave, based on what was said and usual expected course of conduct at a hospital. Are you suggesting that usual course of conduct says a person is free to leave once they are discovered with two pills prescribed to someone else and arrested? Because before that the story indicates they were looking at her and called the police to facillitate treatment.

[Brian4Liberty]

Again, she was not arrested for trespassing or making a disturbance, she was arrested for two prescription pills that somehow, through an illegal search most likely, got "found".

That is key. How does a purse search occur?

[Tpoints]

you didn't respond to my recital of indications she was not free to leave, based on what was said and usual expected course of conduct at a hospital. Are you suggesting that usual course of conduct says a person is free to leave once they are discovered with two pills prescribed to someone else and arrested? Because before that the story indicates they were looking at her and called the police to facillitate treatment.

No, I am not suggesting that. I am suggesting she was free to leave all the way up to the moment the cops arrived. She committed no crime or violation to or at the hospital, so there was nothing they could ask the police to do if she had left. The pills were likely only discovered BY AND AFTER the police, at that point, I am fairly certain she wasn't free to leave. What am I supposed to expect if I was free to leave but didn't, couldn't and forced a person's hand to call the police on me?

[Tpoints]

That is key. How does a purse search occur?

I bet she could've avoided that if she left before the police arrived. Nobody else in the world wants to be liable for looking through a person's purse.

[sailingaway]

No, I am not suggesting that. I am suggesting she was free to leave all the way up to the moment the cops arrived. She committed no crime or violation to or at the hospital, so there was nothing they could ask the police to do if she had left. The pills were likely only discovered BY AND AFTER the police, at that point, I am fairly certain she wasn't free to leave. What am I supposed to expect if I was free to leave but didn't, couldn't and forced a person's hand to call the police on me?

the pain kept her from leaving, she had limited time and went to a place that advertised and held itself out and took govt funding (almost certainly) for being in business precisely to deal with emergencies where there is no time to lose. That lack of time to lose before treatment that would keep her alive necessitated her staying there.

[jclay2]

This is very upsetting. Just another reason to tack on why the good ole us of a is a police state. By the way, does anyone know the chances of dying in the line of duty for a cop vs your average construction worker? I am trying to figure out how fake these "officer" safety concerns are.

[Anti Federalist]

That is key. How does a purse search occur?

I've been trying to figure that out as well.

[acptulsa]

And nowhere states she wasn't free to leave either. I think I figured you out now, when in doubt, BLAME THE GUBMINT! A person dead is never guilty!

Do you really need to have explained to you the difference between 'removed from the premesis' and 'arrested'?

She died in the jail. Are you really trying to convince us she was free to leave the jail? The article says the sheriff's office was called in to help the hospital handle her, and they arrested her. Do you have better information? Were you there?

A dying woman went voluntarily to a hospital with the expectation they would save her life. She was removed from the hospital, and placed in jail, where she died. Are you saying she was free to leave the jail or aren't you? What, exactly, is this point you're trying to argue?

You know, you're free to play devil's advocate all you wish. But if you don't even try to make sense now and then, the devil won't give you any points for it.

And for your information, dead people are accused of committing crimes all the time. It's very handy. Dead men never hire defense attorneys.

U.S. jurisprudence has always called for the arresting agency to provide medical care to prisoners as needed. If you want to argue with a dead woman and try to convince her she didn't need medical care, go right ahead. So, was it the doctor's fault she was taken away undiagnosed, or the sheriff's fault for not taking her back to the doctor? Was her being 'hard to handle' in her condition probable cause for a search? Was the search in any way helpful to the hospital in terms of 'handling her', other than removing her from the premesis so she could die elsewhere? Are you capable of addressing these substantive questions? Do you really think these questions have no substance?

[Tpoints]

Do you really need to have explained to you the difference between 'removed from the premesis' and 'arrested'?


I don't. And it's irrelevant if she was free to leave before the police arrived, or if she was warned they police will come if she doesn't leave.

[Tpoints]

D
She died in the jail. Are you really trying to convince us she was free to leave the jail?

No, I'm not THAT ridiculous, I'm just crazy enough to think she was free to leave the hospital at any time, until the police arrived, unless she committed any crimes or violations which gave them authority to hold her against her will.

[asurfaholic]

Mens rea goes away when you are talking about criminal negligence or strict liability crimes.

oH really now.. How about a source?

How can someone be "criminally" negligent if they are not aware they are committing a crime? The difference is importance, because while I believe the hosptial in this case is pure wrong, I don't believe it is a criminally wrong. Criminally wrong would be more like if they did this because of some personal vendetta against the patient. Lack of training, or lack of common sense doesn't mean they are criminally negligent. Criminally negligent is more closely associated with gettind drunk, then crashing, killing some people. Committed a crime, killed some people.

That said, this hospital IS liable if they turned the patient over to law enforcement, releasing her from their medical care, when there is clearly an emergency. THAT is liability that is excempt from Mens Rae, but that is also a CIVIL matter, not a CRIMINAL matter. Guilty minds or not, I hope the hospital gets sued through the roof.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

you didn't respond to my recital of indications she was not free to leave, based on what was said and usual expected course of conduct at a hospital. Are you suggesting that usual course of conduct says a person is free to leave once they are discovered with two pills prescribed to someone else and arrested? Because before that the story indicates they were looking at her and called the police to facillitate treatment.


I hope so many people hear about this, that it bankrupts the hospital. Really, who would be comfortable being their patient right now?

[asurfaholic]

No, I'm not THAT ridiculous, I'm just crazy enough to think she was free to leave the hospital at any time, until the police arrived, unless she committed any crimes or violations which gave them authority to hold her against her will.

She was there with emergency pain. When she checked in, the hosptial becomes responsible for her care, until they release her, or she releases herself. I don't see any evidence she tried to leave, or refused care.

[Anti Federalist]

I bet she could've avoided that if she left before the police arrived. Nobody else in the world wants to be liable for looking through a person's purse.

How many stories do I need to post where a person was arrested for trying to do just that, leave a medical facility without their "permission"?

Nobody at the hospital asked her to leave.

But have it your way, I'm tired and have been up all night dealing with a very similar situation, as luck would have it.

Yeah, private property uber alles.

Once I step on your property you can barbeque my ass for sloppy joes if you want.

Whatever...

[Tpoints]

oH really now.. How about a source?


I don't need to defend any person's actions here. I just was telling you that Mens rea is not a requirement for all crimes.

[TER]

Lord have mercy

[Anti Federalist]

You know, you're free to play devil's advocate all you wish. But if you don't even try to make sense now and then, the devil won't give you any points for it.

Josh_LA - Optatron - Nickels is in rare form this afternoon.

[sailingaway]

the pain kept her from leaving, she had limited time and went to a place that advertised and held itself out and took govt funding (almost certainly) for being in business precisely to deal with emergencies where there is no time to lose. That lack of time to lose before treatment that would keep her alive necessitated her staying there.

you didn't respond to this, either ^^

[acptulsa]

No, I'm not THAT ridiculous, I'm just crazy enough to think she was free to leave the hospital at any time, until the police arrived, unless she committed any crimes or violations which gave them authority to hold her against her will.

Ah, I see. You think she should have crawled out of that hospital on her hands and knees, with her guts ripping her apart, and kept crawling until she reached the next hospital--which in that part of the nation, could easily be forty miles or more distant.

Well, now I see just exactly how ridiculous you are. Nice to have a good gauge.


Lord have mercy

I think we can all be grateful Someone does. But the fact that she's in His hands now sure doesn't reflect well on Paul's Valley.

[Brian4Liberty]

I don't. And it's irrelevant if she was free to leave before the police arrived, or if she was warned they police will come if she doesn't leave.


How many stories do I need to post where a person was arrested for trying to do just that, leave a medical facility without their "permission"?

Yep. Many, many documented examples of that.


Once I step on your property you can barbeque my ass for sloppy joes if you want.

Zed has a gag-ball with your name on it. Private property, you know.

[Tpoints]

which in that part of the nation, could easily be forty miles or more distant.

Well, now I see just exactly how ridiculous you are. Nice to have a good gauge.

Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that says a person is entitled to a short distance accessible hospital. Maybe you'll be happy when Obamacare creates more of them?

[TER]

But the fact that she's in His hands now sure doesn't reflect well on Paul's Valley.

No it doesn't. Not at all. Of course, it is hard to sit here in judgment since we only have very little information on what happened during the hospital visit. For example, was an ultrasound performed? Was a serum bHCG performed? Did they (or she) even know she was pregnant? There is so much important facts that are missing in regards to what her medical workup was that it is impossible to say with certainty that any malpractice occurred (though it does appear there was likely at least negligence involved). Nevertheless, this is such a sad story and I pray that her family finds the comfort and strength that only God can give.

[acptulsa]

Zed has a gag-ball with your name on it. Private property, you know.

Yup. Rape as the penalty for trespassing, death as the penalty for having a couple of tablets from someone else's prescription in your purse, and all without due process. Nah, that's not cruel and unusual at all. Perfectly constitutional.

[Tpoints]

Yeah, private property uber alles.

Once I step on your property you can barbeque my ass for sloppy joes if you want.

Whatever...

Yes, private property uber alles, otherwise why wouldn't socialized medicine be morally right? How else do you justify excluding medical and emergency if you do not put personal responsibility and private property above another person's life?

And don't act like you wouldn't want to (not saying you would do it, but want to) do that to the government if they trespassed on your property.

[acptulsa]

Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that says a person is entitled to a short distance accessible hospital. Maybe you'll be happy when Obamacare creates more of them?

I think you missed the part of the Constitution that specifically states letting someone die from an incredibly painful and treatable medical condition before their trial is not covered by the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment as well. Maybe you should stop making a fool of yourself long enough to go read the document.

Just a suggestion.


And don't act like you wouldn't want to (not saying you would do it, but want to) do that to the government if they trespassed on your property.

There you are, AF. The Thought Police has indicted you and found you guilty of thoughtcrime. He claims not to be a progressive, but he sure has the same insane confidence in his ability to read minds as any progressive you can name.

[sailingaway]

the pain kept her from leaving, she had limited time and went to a place that advertised and held itself out and took govt funding (almost certainly) for being in business precisely to deal with emergencies where there is no time to lose. That lack of time to lose before treatment that would keep her alive necessitated her staying there. you didn't respond to this, either ^^

??

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, private property uber alles, otherwise why wouldn't socialized medicine be morally right? How else do you justify excluding medical and emergency if you do not put personal responsibility and private property above another person's life?

And don't act like you wouldn't want to (not saying you would do it, but want to) do that to the government if they trespassed on your property.

Because this wasn't SWAT raiding my living room and killing my dogs and shooting my kids.

This was a woman in life threatening pain who went to the place that advertises and takes my tax money to treat "all comers" with life threatening pain and illness.

She was committing no trespass, she was never asked to leave, she went to where she was supposed to go.

Somebody got nervous, called a fucking cop who threw her in jail and killed her.

I place no blame on the hospital (past the idiot nurse who called a cop in the first place) and place all the blame on the fuckstick cops that illegally searched and arrested her, threw her in a cage and left her to die.

[Tpoints]

I think you missed the part of the Constitution that specifically states letting someone die from an incredibly painful and treatable medical condition before their trial is not covered by the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment as well. Maybe you should stop making a fool of yourself long enough to go read the document.

Just a suggestion.



There you are, AF. The Thought Police has indicted you and found you guilty of thoughtcrime. He claims not to be a progressive, but he sure has the same insane confidence in his ability to read minds as any progressive you can name.

I didn't say it's a thoughtcrime, I was just saying he's in no position to accuse a person for saying "private property uber alles" if he doesn't believe some of it himself.

Only the police let her die by cruel and unusual punishment, if anything. The police can try to say the hospital cleared her, but that wouldn't change the facts after she got to the jail.

[Tpoints]

Because this wasn't SWAT raiding my living room and killing my dogs and shooting my kids.


So as long as they're not raiding, they're free to step in and out?

People in the hospital made the call and you place no blame on them??

[Anti Federalist]

There you are, AF. The Thought Police has indicted you and found you guilty of thoughtcrime. He claims not to be a progressive, but he sure has the same insane confidence in his ability to read minds as any progressive you can name.

No kidding...wtf?

[acptulsa]

Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that says a person is entitled to a short distance accessible hospital. Maybe you'll be happy when Obamacare creates more of them?


I didn't say it's a thoughtcrime, I was just saying he's in no position to accuse a person for saying "private property uber alles" if he doesn't believe some of it himself.

He isn't? So you're in no position to accuse others of being happy about Obamacare if you don't believe in some of it yourself?

Well, now. We have an Obamacare fan on the boards, ladies and gentlemen. By his own admission. TPoints the Obamacare Fan. Now you know.

[Anti Federalist]

So as long as they're not raiding, they're free to step in and out?

People in the hospital made the call and you place no blame on them??

No, past violation of the prime directive anyway, not to ever call the cops.

Why does this surprise you, after all it is their property right?

No, of course I blame the cops. There was no probable cause for the illegal search, and even if there was, the cops could have used all manner of discretion and judgment, up to and including not arresting her at that point in time.

It's called justice and decency and human kindness and empathy.

These have mostly gone out the window as were are now viewed not much better than dogs, mere Mundanes, and Officer Safety and absolute control take precedence even over a sick and dying woman's life.

[acptulsa]

He isn't? So you're in no position to accuse others of being happy about Obamacare if you don't believe in some of it yourself?

Well, now. We have an Obamacare fan on the boards, ladies and gentlemen. By his own admission. TPoints the Obamacare Fan. Now you know.

Don't tell me that's not what you said. It is. And don't tell me I should have ignored what you said and read your mind instead. If your thoughts aren't worth your time invested in sorting out and typing intelligibly, then they sure aren't worth my effort at telepathy.

[pacodever]

This update clears up the timeline a bit. She goes in, doesn't "cooperate", staff calls to nearby police already in the building to assist, hospital releases her, then cop finds drugs while "helping" her collect her belongings. But I think the question still remains, was the medical staff or even the mother aware she was pregnant or aware of the ectopic pregnancy and whether this would have been discovered if the standard of care was met. It also looks like this cop already had it in for her after observing her adjust her clothing, and then made sure to search her belongings while supposedly helping her. Would this constitute an illegal search?

Guess the cops were already there. But the whole thing is rotten. Take a woman complaining of abdominal pain from a hospital to a jail, then leave her unattended for two hours, then right back to the hospital to be declared dead? Fucked up.


PAULS VALLEY, Okla. —The medical examiner has issued a cause of death for the pregnant mother who died inside the Garvin County Jail, just hours after she tried to seek medical care at a nearby hospital.

According to the ME, the cause of Jamie Fisher's was a ruptured ectopic pregnancy and the manner of her death was natural. The ME found that there was "no foul play" involved in Fisher's death.

"She enjoyed life," said former neighbor and friend Sherry Kimberlin. "Every day was a new experience for Jamie."

Friends said the 33-year-old, also known as Jamie Russell, went to the Pauls Valley General Hospital on Jan. 3 complaining of severe abdominal pains.

According to the police report filed by a Pauls Valley officer, nurses said Jamie was "not cooperating" and they needed a nearby officer to assist. The officer said staff told Jamie to lay on her back so they could perform tests and Jamie refused, saying it hurt.

The officer said he observed Jamie lift her body to adjust her clothing, out of sight of the medical staff, which Jamie had told nurses she did not have the ability to do moments earlier.

According to the report, since Jamie could not cooperate the staff decided to release her. While helping Jamie gather her things, the officer said he discovered 2 pill bottles in Jamie's possession containing alprazolam and oxycodone that were not prescribed to her.

The officer wrote, "I advised Jamie of the situation but at this time she appeared very loopy."

The officer arrested Jamie on a felony narcotics complaint around the same time a family member arrived at the hospital. According to the report, the family member told police the drugs belonged to an older family member and, "Jamie had probably stolen them."

The officer transported Jamie to the Garvin County jail around 8:30 p.m. where she was booked into a holding area. According to the Garvin County Sheriff Larry Rhodes, at around 10:30 p.m. detention deputies noticed Jamie was unresponsive and called for medical attention. She was pronounced dead a short time later.

"Nobody deserves that," said Sherry Kimberlin, "Nobody deserves to die alone like that in a cage."


http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/around-oklahoma/ME-rules-on-cause-of-jailed-pregnant-Pauls-Valley-mother-s-death/-/12530084/18096230/-/wcrgta/-/index.html#ixzz2HtLyA0xN

[Tpoints]

He isn't? So you're in no position to accuse others of being happy about Obamacare if you don't believe in some of it yourself?

Well, now. We have an Obamacare fan on the boards, ladies and gentlemen. By his own admission. TPoints the Obamacare Fan. Now you know.

Except I never said I'm either for or a fan of Obama care. What did I admit?

[Tpoints]

Don't tell me that's not what you said. It is. And don't tell me I should have ignored what you said and read your mind instead.

Quote what I said and interpret it with reason, thanks. You don't need to read my mind. Read what I said.

[acptulsa]

I didn't say it's a thoughtcrime, I was just saying he's in no position to accuse a person for saying "[whatever statement]" if he doesn't believe some of it himself.

I suppose that it's safe to say your reading comprhension skills leave something to be desired, if you can't even understand what you yourself typed.

You were the one throwing asinine inanities all over this thread like confetti. Man up and wear it.

[Tpoints]

I suppose that it's safe to say your reading comprhension skills leave something to be desired, if you can't even understand what you yourself typed.

You were the one throwing asinine inanities all over this thread like confetti. Man up and wear it.

say it to yourself if it makes you feel better. When did I ever say I am a fan of or support Obamacare? How did you conclude that from what I said?

Even the most asinine insanities didn't say anything about supporting or liking Obamacare.

[acptulsa]

say it to yourself if it makes you feel better. When did I ever say I am a fan of or support Obamacare? How did you conclude that from what I said?

Even the most asinine insanities didn't say anything about supporting or liking Obamacare.

The troll thinks it's all in my head. Therefore, there's nothing I can say that will get it to admit it did what it did.

Anyone else care to enlighten this troll? That might actually work. And it would be an excellent lesson in how not to debate.

In any case, I've had enough fun with this one. Besides, they're about to kick off.

[Tpoints]

The troll thinks it's all in my head. Therefore, there's nothing I can say that will get it to admit it did what it did.


No, there IS something you can say, QUOTE ME.

Otherwise, yeah, isn't it all in your head? It's possible I make typos or mistakes, or even forget what I say, but where did I ever say anything that sounded like I like, support or am a fan of Obamacare?

[acptulsa]

No, there IS something you can say, QUOTE ME.

Again, you mean. You missed it the first time. Barely tousled your hair on the way over your head. Well, maybe I can find another way to explain it. Let's see if I can make it basic enough for you to wrap your mind around.


Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that says a person is entitled to a short distance accessible hospital. Maybe you'll be happy when Obamacare creates more of them?


I didn't say it's a thoughtcrime, I was just saying he's in no position to accuse a person for saying "private property uber alles" if he doesn't believe some of it himself.

He's in no position to accuse someone for saying something unless he believes some of it himself. Therefore, no one is in a position to accuse someone for saying something unless he believes some of it himself. Therefore, you are in no position to accuse someone for something unless you believe some of it yourself.

And you accused someone for believing in Obamacare.

QED.

So, either you see something in Obamacare to believe in or your 'logic' is an epic fail. Or, more likely, both. One wonders how you can be so cocksure that the person you're hotly debating isn't on the same side of the debate as you.

[Tpoints]

Therefore, you are in no position to accuse someone for something unless you believe some of it yourself.


Ok, I admit my poor wording, I should have said it this way.
Actually I meant "you can't accuse a person for saying something, or condemn it, IF you DO believe in it yourself", or more specifically, "You can't say it's wrong to believe Jesus is your savior if you believe it yourself". This is different than saying "You can't accuse me of being a Christian unless you're a Christian". Does that make sense?



And you accused someone for believing in Obamacare.

QED.

So, either you see something in Obamacare to believe in or your 'logic' is an epic fail. Or, more likely, both.

And I'm in a perfect position of both accusing a person of believing in Obamacare, AND condemning it myself, because I believe NONE OF IT. So, you still can't find where I believe Obamacare has any merit, and why I can't accuse and condmen a person of believing, supporting or liking it. Hopefully with this correction, you are no longer putting those words in my mouth.

I apologize that I said what sounded like the opposite of what I meant. I believe private property uber alles, and I believe he does too, therefore, he's wrong to condemn me for it, because he agrees with me (though selectively), and if he doesn't, I want to know why he can condemn Obama care.

[Brian4Liberty]

http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/around-oklahoma/ME-rules-on-cause-of-jailed-pregnant-Pauls-Valley-mother-s-death/-/12530084/18096230/-/wcrgta/-/index.html#ixzz2HtLyA0xN


According to the police report filed by a Pauls Valley officer, nurses said Jamie was "not cooperating" and they needed a nearby officer to assist. The officer said staff told Jamie to lay on her back so they could perform tests and Jamie refused, saying it hurt.


Perceived contempt of medical personnel, almost as bad as contempt of cop.


The officer said he observed Jamie lift her body to adjust her clothing, out of sight of the medical staff, which Jamie had told nurses she did not have the ability to do moments earlier.


There's some crack investigative work. Part cop, part Doctor.


The officer wrote, "I advised Jamie of the situation but at this time she appeared very loopy."

The officer arrested Jamie on a felony narcotics complaint around the same time a family member arrived at the hospital. According to the report, the family member told police the drugs belonged to an older family member and, "Jamie had probably stolen them."


Another victim of the war on drugs.

At this point the picture is fairly clear. I doubt reality deviates far from this scenario, if at all:

- woman didn't know about the pregnancy. It was just a report of pain. Known pregnancy would have changed the level and type of care dramatically.
- hospital staff immediately jump to the conclusion she is faking and trying to get drugs.
- cop is called, who then investigates this "drug addict".
- cop does an illegal search, and the pills (wrongly) validates everyone's suspicion of drug addict faking a problem.
- off to jail for the drug addict.

[SeanTX]

I just looked at the comments in the latest article from a local source. All but one of the commenters are attacking the victim and blame her for her own death. Like one saying that she was endangering her baby by taking "dangerous painkillers." I think when you are in that kind of pain you will do just about anything to alleviate it. This just shows that the vast majority of people in this country lack empathy for others, and that's why this sort of thing will continue.

[Tpoints]

I just looked at the comments in the latest article from a local source. All but one of the commenters are attacking the victim and blame her for her own death. Like one saying that she was endangering her baby by taking "dangerous painkillers." I think when you are in that kind of pain you will do just about anything to alleviate it. This just shows that the vast majority of people in this country lack empathy for others, and that's why this sort of thing will continue.

good thing we don't know whether aborting the baby would save her life, or that'd be another whole story/discussion

[kathy88]

good thing we don't know whether aborting the baby would save her life, or that'd be another whole story/discussion

You don't abort ectopic pregnancies. They are not viable. It is an egg implanted OUTSIDE the uterus with ZERO chance of survival.

[acptulsa]

I apologize that I said what sounded like the opposite of what I meant. I believe private property uber alles, and I believe he does too, therefore, he's wrong to condemn me for it, because he agrees with me (though selectively), and if he doesn't, I want to know why he can condemn Obama care.

And now you're talking about two different people.

If you were more interested in the issue at hand than in finding aspersions to cast at people you perceive as your enemies, you might be worth a $#!+ in a debate.

In the meantime, not so much.


You don't abort ectopic pregnancies. They are not viable. It is an egg implanted OUTSIDE the uterus with ZERO chance of survival.

Seems to me the people criticizing her for taking pain killers while preagnant don't understand the kind of pain this causes, and don't understand that this pain is probably the first sign of the preagnancy. That's some thoughtless condemnation.

[Brian4Liberty]

At this point the picture is fairly clear. I doubt reality deviates far from this scenario, if at all:

- woman didn't know about the pregnancy. It was just a report of pain. Known pregnancy would have changed the level and type of care dramatically.
- hospital staff immediately jump to the conclusion she is faking and trying to get drugs.
- cop is called, who then investigates this "drug addict".
- cop does an illegal search, and the pills (wrongly) validates everyone's suspicion of drug addict faking a problem.
- off to jail for the drug addict.

So let's examine this further. Did the medical personnel violate the Oath of Hippocrates, and Doctor-Patient confidentiality?


The Oath of Hippocrates, traditionally sworn to by newly licensed physicians, includes the promise that "Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret." The laws of Hippocrates further provide, "Those things which are sacred, are to be imparted only to sacred persons; and it is not lawful to impart them to the profane until they have been initiated into the mysteries of the science."

Doctor-patient confidentiality stems from the special relationship created when a prospective patient seeks the advice, care, and/or treatment of a physician. It is based upon the general principle that individuals seeking medical help or advice should not be hindered or inhibited by fear that their medical concerns or conditions will be disclosed to others. Patients entrust personal knowledge of themselves to their physicians, which creates an uneven relationship in that the vulnerability is one-sided. There is generally an expectation that physicians will hold that special knowledge in confidence and use it exclusively for the benefit of the patient.

The professional duty of confidentiality covers not only what patients may reveal to doctors, but also what doctors may independently conclude or form an opinion about, based on their EXAMINATION or ASSESSMENT of patients. Confidentiality covers all medical records (including x-rays, lab-reports, etc.) as well as communications between patient and doctor, and it generally includes communications between the patient and other professional staff working with the doctor.

The duty of confidentiality continues even after patients stop seeing or being treated by their doctors. Once doctors are under a duty of confidentiality, they cannot divulge any medical information about their patients to third persons without patient consent. There are, however, exceptions to this rule.

So it seems clear that this case would be a violation of patient confidentiality. How can thousands of years of medical ethics be thrown out the window?

Oh yes, there are exceptions to the rule. Now what could those exceptions possibly be?


The fundamental right to privacy, guaranteed by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U. S. Constitution, protects against unwarranted invasions of privacy by federal or state entities, or arms thereof. As early as in Roe v. Wade, 410 U. S. 113 (1973), the U. S. Supreme Court acknowledged that the doctor-patient relationship is one which evokes constitutional rights of privacy. But even that right is not absolute and must be weighed against the state or federal interest at stake.

For example, in Whalen v. Roe, 429 U.S. 589 (1977), a group of physicians joined patients in a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of a New York statute that required physicians to report to state authorities the identities of patients receiving Schedule II drugs (controlled substances). The physicians alleged that such information was protected by the doctor-patient confidentiality, while the patients alleged that such disclosure was an invasion of their constitutional right to privacy. The Supreme Court did not disagree with the lower court's finding that "the intimate nature of a patient's concern about his bodily ills and the medication he takes . . . are protected by the constitutional right to privacy." However, the high court concluded (after balancing the state's interests) that "Requiring such disclosures to representatives of the State having responsibility for the health of the community, does not automatically amount to an impermissible invasion of privacy."

Well, imagine that? Thousands of years of medical ethics, superceded by the war on drugs and "balancing the state's interest".

http://www.enotes.com/healthcare-reference/doctor-patient-confidentiality

[Anti Federalist]

I just looked at the comments in the latest article from a local source. All but one of the commenters are attacking the victim and blame her for her own death. Like one saying that she was endangering her baby by taking "dangerous painkillers." I think when you are in that kind of pain you will do just about anything to alleviate it. This just shows that the vast majority of people in this country lack empathy for others, and that's why this sort of thing will continue.

That's why they will cheer on the cops when they ruthlessly stamp out and annihilate the nests of violent, reactionary vipers. (That's us)

Yup, she was a dirtbag and deserved to die in a puddle of piss on a jail cell floor.

[Occam's Banana]

Seems to me the people criticizing her for taking pain killers while preagnant don't understand the kind of pain this causes, and don't understand that this pain is probably the first sign of the preagnancy. That's some thoughtless condemnation.

All they need to know is that a cop put her in a cage. Therefore, she must have done something to deserve whatever happened to her. End of story.

They do not need or want to understand anything beyond this: "Cop --> Cage --> Whatever". Anything and everything else is superfluous and entirely irrelevant.

[TheTexan]

All they need to know is that a cop put her in a cage. Therefore, she must have done something to deserve whatever happened to her. End of story.

They do not need or want to understand anything beyond this: "Cop --> Cage --> Whatever". Anything and everything else is superfluous and entirely irrelevant.

Yup. Guilty until proven innocent

[kathy88]

Seems to me the people criticizing her for taking pain killers while preagnant don't understand the kind of pain this causes, and don't understand that this pain is probably the first sign of the preagnancy. That's some thoughtless condemnation.

This is very true. It happens very early.


An ectopic pregnancy, or eccysis, is a complication of pregnancy in which the embryo implants outside the uterine cavity.[1] With rare exceptions, ectopic pregnancies are not viable. Furthermore, they are dangerous for the mother, since internal haemorrhage is a life-threatening complication. Most ectopic pregnancies occur in the Fallopian tube (so-called tubal pregnancies), but implantation can also occur in the cervix, ovaries, and abdomen. An ectopic pregnancy is a potential medical emergency, and, if not treated properly, can lead to death.

[Anti Federalist]

All they need to know is that a cop put her in a cage. Therefore, she must have done something to deserve whatever happened to her. End of story.

They do not need or want to understand anything beyond this: "Cop --> Cage --> Whatever". Anything and everything else is superfluous and entirely irrelevant.
Maddeningly, infuriatingly, sadly...correct.

This is why I have lost MY empathy, when it comes to giving a shit about what happens to Boobus as the wheels fall off this mess.

[heavenlyboy34]

Just because you go on someone else's property to utilize its services as advertised does not give them the right to forcefully hand you over to their local serial killers to be locked up and murdered. Your understanding of property rights and business ethics is distorted at best. Both parties are in the wrong. They should all be charged with murder, endangering a child, kidnapping, and assault, as well as some others, I'm sure.Thoughtcrime reported.

[Brian4Liberty]

A recent article on this story:


Jamie Lynn Russell was 33 years old when she went to an emergency room in Pauls Valley, Oklahoma in such debilitating pain that she was unable to move. Because her excruciating pain prevented her from lying down for an examination, hospital staff labeled her “noncompliant,” and called the police. The police discovered that she had two pain pills that weren’t hers. Still in pain, she was released by the hospital as “fit to incarcerate,” arrested for drug possession, and taken to jail, where she died two hours later from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy.

Two pain pills.

Much of the initial response to the case centered around the actions of the hospital, which likely amount to malpractice. But we must avoid making the mistake that the hospital did: looking at individual actions when they are merely symptoms of deeper, deadlier problems.

Jamie’s needless death shows us where our priorities lie, misplaced: chasing down minor drug offenders in service of a failed war on drugs is more important that human life and dignity; women’s health is not taken seriously and “noncompliance” is cause for punishment.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/01/11/dehumanizing-pregnant-women-leads-to-real-loss-life

[Anti Federalist]

“Noncompliance” is cause for punishment.

Let that burn into your brain.

That is the motto, the rallying cry, the prime directive of the new order of things here in the land of the free.

Non-compliance will result in immediate pain or death.

[SeanTX]

Maddeningly, infuriatingly, sadly...correct.

This is why I have lost MY empathy, when it comes to giving a shit about what happens to Boobus as the wheels fall off this mess.

This is why I also don't care to hear all the Bubba/Boobus gun owners whining about what's going on right now. Those same guys for years now have been cheering on the police tasering, beating, and killing people just for "not complying." For years on gun and hunting forums I've seen them posting videos of innocent people being tasered and making comments like "ride the lightning, granny!" and "good tase, should have followed officer commands".

Anyone who has ever visited ARFCOM or The Texas Fishing Forum knows what I'm talking about. Hell, on ARFCOM there was a big thread about the Kelly Thomas beating death, and about 75% of the "civilians" and about 99% of the LEOs commenting there thought it was just fine for 6 cops to beat an unarmed schizophrenic man to death.

They've also cheered for The Patriot Act, more police, more laws, the drug war, shooting dogs as SOP, etc. Now it is their turn to lose some rights -- can't wait to hear all the Bubbas whining and crying tomorrow when Obama announces his 19 executive orders for new gun control. Sorry Bubba, should have stood up for others rights too -- now it's your turn to bend over and take it too. You didn't stand up and speak up for others rights, and there may be no one left to do it for you now. Suck it up, Bubba ...

[sailingaway]

This is why I also don't care to hear all the Bubba/Boobus gun owners whining about what's going on right now. Those same guys for years now have been cheering on the police tasering, beating, and killing people just for "not complying." Anyone who has ever visited ARFCOM knows what I'm talking about. They also cheered for The Patriot Act, etc. Now it is their turn to lose some rights -- can't wait to hear all the Bubbas whining and crying tomorrow when Obama announces his 19 executive orders for new gun control. Sorry Bubba, should have stood up for others rights too -- now it's your turn to bend over and take it.

Except it isn't 'them', it is us.

But yes, I do wish the masses would figure out that they NEED to insist on 'procedural technicalities' being respected because only then will their own rights be respected. If you disrespect the Constitution, where will your protection come from?