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SchleckBros
01-11-2013, 12:52 PM
The poll reveals that support for significant abortion restrictions has increased by four points since last year—rising from 79 percent to 83 percent.

Of the 83 percent who support significant restrictions on abortion, 10 percent believe abortion should never be permitted; 12 percent believe abortion should be allowed only to save the life of the mother; 34 percent would restrict abortion only to cases of rape or incest, or to save the life of the mother; and 27 percent would limit abortion to—at most—the first three months of pregnancy.

Just 11 percent would allow abortion at any time, while 6 percent would allow it during the first six months of pregnancy.

The survey also found that nearly six in 10 Americans (58 percent) believe abortion is “morally wrong.” And 84 percent of Americans say laws can protect both mothers and unborn children.

http://www.charismanews.com/us/35174-poll-80-percent-of-americans-want-significant-abortion-restrictions

cbrons
01-11-2013, 01:08 PM
Abortion is wrong, so I'm glad there is still some sense of absolute morality in America even as we descend into tyranny.

BTW I think one of the big reasons why people are becoming more and more opposed to abortion is because they hate the abortion advocates in Hollywood who absolutely disgust them. And the eco nazis:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s0UXWU4d9uc/T6C4ItDsegI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/wDbRblRoDas/s1600/abortion_tshirt.jpg

To many people, they see the abortion racket as a form of neo-eugenicism, and it's hard to disagree with them, especially when you have clips of abortion doctors (and they're aren't many around) saying that aborting "black" babies is good so he doesn't have to pay for welfare through taxes. http://www.therightscoop.com/unbelievable-racist-abortion-doctor-defends-killing-ugly-black-babies/

liberalnurse
01-11-2013, 02:19 PM
My stance on abortion is I don't judge. It's between the women, her God, her doctor and her partner. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

dannno
01-11-2013, 02:27 PM
Significant abortion restrictions includes those who want to limit it to the first 3 months. A lot of people hold that position, or similar positions and consider themselves pro-choice.

jmdrake
01-11-2013, 02:40 PM
Significant abortion restrictions includes those who want to limit it to the first 3 months. A lot of people hold that position, or similar positions and consider themselves pro-choice.

Well if you're going to have some line about when abortions are okay and when not, this coupled with the life exception makes the most sense. You always have a right to self defense (life exception) and the earlier in the pregnancy the less likely people are to consider the fetus a person. (Few have problems with zygote abortions for instance). The rape exception is problematic because the child didn't do anything wrong. (That's the way those two idiots that lost their respective races last year should have answered the question.)

Keith and stuff
01-11-2013, 02:42 PM
So 90% of people are pro-choice? Maybe it's just because I live in New Hampshire but I thought the number was higher than that.

Uriah
01-11-2013, 03:27 PM
Shades of grey.

Zippyjuan
01-11-2013, 06:44 PM
Says only ten percent would want to completely ban it.

Brett85
01-11-2013, 10:50 PM
My stance on abortion is I don't judge. It's between the women, her God, her doctor and her partner. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

Ok. Just don't judge me if I decide I want to murder my next door neighbor. That should be my choice.

Philhelm
01-11-2013, 11:07 PM
I'm not really an "abortion warrior" but I certainly think that abortion is bad juju at the very least, and makes me think that we live in a culture of death. If I were a doctor, I would not perform abortions.

I just had my first child on Tuesday, and she is currently awaiting heart surgery. She should be fine, but it makes me think about all of the potentially healthy babies that are terminated and I can't help but ask why my baby was afflicted with a bad heart, especially when my wife went to such lengths to do everything right during the pregnancy.

John F Kennedy III
01-11-2013, 11:11 PM
Significant abortion restrictions includes those who want to limit it to the first 3 months. A lot of people hold that position, or similar positions and consider themselves pro-choice.

I was reading the other night they can detect a heartbeat as early 21 days and brainwave patterns at 40 days into the pregnancy.

And honestly, if a baby isn't considered a living human being from the moment it's conceived, then plants and trees aren't alive. Because they wouldn't fit the definition of living either.

Smart3
01-11-2013, 11:34 PM
Happily part of the 11%, 42% and 16%.

Abortion saves lives.


I was reading the other night they can detect a heartbeat as early 21 days and brainwave patterns at 40 days into the pregnancy.

And honestly, if a baby isn't considered a living human being from the moment it's conceived, then plants and trees aren't alive. Because they wouldn't fit the definition of living either.
The point at which the plant or tree is above the soil is the "birth" so-to-speak. At that point it is wrong to kill it.

and yes, I oppose giving flowers to people. Call me a liberal or enviro-nazi if you wish.

ghengis86
01-11-2013, 11:41 PM
I'm not really an "abortion warrior" but I certainly think that abortion is bad juju at the very least, and makes me think that we live in a culture of death. If I were a doctor, I would not perform abortions.

I just had my first child on Tuesday, and she is currently awaiting heart surgery. She should be fine, but it makes me think about all of the potentially healthy babies that are terminated and I can't help but ask why my baby was afflicted with a bad heart, especially when my wife went to such lengths to do everything right during the pregnancy.

Congratulations on the most beautiful experience of the human condition; creating life. My prayers are to your child, you and your family. Life is fleeting and a precious gift. God bless

Philhelm
01-11-2013, 11:43 PM
Congratulations on the most beautiful experience of the human condition; creating life. My prayers are to your child, you and your family. Life is fleeting and a precious gift. God bless

Thank you. She will be my shieldmaiden.

presence
01-11-2013, 11:48 PM
Thread: My stance on abortion: THE 10 GRAM RULE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?396831-My-stance-on-abortion-THE-10-GRAM-RULE)

Philhelm
01-11-2013, 11:51 PM
I suspect that the abortion issue will lead to simple possession of carrying a fetus, beyond an individual's federally allowed limit of children, to be a felony with a ten year minimum sentence.

familydog
01-11-2013, 11:54 PM
Sad.

If 80% of Americans would work towards solving the root cause of abortions, there would be little to none. Let's look at the sociological reasons why women have abortions and try to prevent that. Poverty, despair, entrapment, low self-esteem leading to casual sex...all factors which lead to abortions. All can be addressed and solved.

Restrictions mean laws and laws mean violence. If abortion is a violent act, using violence to quell it will only make it worse.

Smart3
01-11-2013, 11:56 PM
I suspect that the abortion issue will lead to simple possession of carrying a fetus, beyond an individual's federally allowed limit of children, to be a felony with a ten year minimum sentence.
Bill Maher will never be President.

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 01:01 AM
Thank you. She will be my shieldmaiden.

What is a shieldmaiden?

Origanalist
01-12-2013, 01:10 AM
Happily part of the 11%, 42% and 16%.

Abortion saves lives.


The point at which the plant or tree is above the soil is the "birth" so-to-speak. At that point it is wrong to kill it.

and yes, I oppose giving flowers to people. Call me a liberal or enviro-nazi if you wish.

Your post has me a bit confused........

itshappening
01-12-2013, 01:10 AM
How many American's are in favor of postal-birth abortion? Some professors are arguing for it I kid you not.

Origanalist
01-12-2013, 01:14 AM
What is a shieldmaiden?

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4758962032084935&pid=15.1 http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4757918378492290&pid=15.1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Rwfj0m9wgSA

Origanalist
01-12-2013, 01:16 AM
I'm not really an "abortion warrior" but I certainly think that abortion is bad juju at the very least, and makes me think that we live in a culture of death. If I were a doctor, I would not perform abortions.

I just had my first child on Tuesday, and she is currently awaiting heart surgery. She should be fine, but it makes me think about all of the potentially healthy babies that are terminated and I can't help but ask why my baby was afflicted with a bad heart, especially when my wife went to such lengths to do everything right during the pregnancy.

God bless, and you're in for quite a ride. :)

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 01:37 AM
http://memecaptain.com/9afcc5.jpg

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 01:41 AM
http://memecaptain.com/118a53.jpg

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 01:50 AM
http://memecaptain.com/1e1774.jpg

Smart3
01-12-2013, 02:54 AM
Your post has me a bit confused........

What's confusing?

Brett85
01-12-2013, 08:35 AM
Sad.

If 80% of Americans would work towards solving the root cause of abortions, there would be little to none. Let's look at the sociological reasons why women have abortions and try to prevent that. Poverty, despair, entrapment, low self-esteem leading to casual sex...all factors which lead to abortions. All can be addressed and solved.

Restrictions mean laws and laws mean violence. If abortion is a violent act, using violence to quell it will only make it worse.

So I take it you're an anarchist?

familydog
01-12-2013, 09:07 AM
So I take it you're an anarchist?

I see no other logical conclusion to my statement.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 09:25 AM
Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush, the mulberry bush,
Here we go round the mulberry bush...


I'M not playing the electoral politics Game, wherein WINNING ELECTIONS is a key component of Success.

The quote-unquote socially conservative position on Abortion and the MANMADE notion of "reproductive rights" COST y'all in the last election.

Working Poor
01-12-2013, 09:44 AM
I believe anyone who does not want an abortion ought not have one. I think the way republicans keep this a gay marriage a talking point the more they will lose. I think republicans are getting close to loosing every federal election.

We just can't keep this up if we do not wish to become irrelevant. The libs are deeply convinced that abortion is a right it is after a part of the constitution now. I think republicans should focus on protecting our rights that we still have...

CaptLouAlbano
01-12-2013, 09:49 AM
[B][I]I'M not playing the electoral politics Game, wherein WINNING ELECTIONS is a key component of Success.

The quote-unquote socially conservative position on Abortion and the MANMADE notion of "reproductive rights" COST y'all in the last election.

The reason being is that the pro-abortion crowd always trots out the "rape, incest, life of the mother" issue to make pro-life groups sound horrific. Funny thing is that the Guttmacher Institute (a pro-abortion group) study on why women have an abortion shows that only 1% were because of rape, and <0.5% were because of incest. I couldn't find "life of the mother" anywhere in their stats. The number one reason? "Having a baby would dramatically change my life" (74%).

https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

I am pro-life, always have been. So I will give you the 1% if we take away the other 99% of abortions.

Working Poor
01-12-2013, 09:49 AM
If Rand runs for president he will loose if he makes abortion his top issue.

Origanalist
01-12-2013, 09:50 AM
What's confusing?

The whole thing

Happily part of the 11%, 42% and 16%.

Abortion saves lives.


The point at which the plant or tree is above the soil is the "birth" so-to-speak. At that point it is wrong to kill it.

and yes, I oppose giving flowers to people. Call me a liberal or enviro-nazi if you wish.

Please elaborate?

Brett85
01-12-2013, 09:54 AM
I believe anyone who does not want an abortion ought not have one.

Right, and like I said earlier, anyone who doesn't want to murder their next door neighbor should have the right to choose not to do so. Just don't take away my rights and tell me that I don't have the right to kill my next door neighbor who's really annoying me. It should be my right to choose without any government interference.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 09:56 AM
If Rand runs for president he will loose if he makes abortion his top issue.

He won't make it his top issue, but he won't take a pro choice stance either. He will carry on his dad's position of being strongly pro life.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 09:56 AM
...So I will give you the 1% if we take away the other 99% of abortions.


Good luck with that.

Republicanguy
01-12-2013, 09:57 AM
Abortion is sad, but necessary. I would suggest very early on.

It is up to the woman, and perhaps close relatives. But I do believe predominately the woman must make the choice. I don't believe in restricting an abortion.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 09:58 AM
Abortion is sad, but necessary. I would suggest very early on.

It is up to the woman, and perhaps close relatives. But I do believe predominately the woman must make the choice. I don't believe in restricting an abortion.

That's fine, just as long as you're consistent and say that all laws against murder should be repealed.

CaptLouAlbano
01-12-2013, 10:07 AM
Abortion is sad, but necessary. I would suggest very early on.

It is up to the woman, and perhaps close relatives. But I do believe predominately the woman must make the choice. I don't believe in restricting an abortion.

Why is it necessary? Look at the reasons women have abortions as I posted above. And this info came from a pro-abortion group. 99% of the reasons are for convenience. Is that a necessary reason to destroy human life? How screwed are we as a society if we say that a woman who gets pregnant and then decides to destroy that life because it "Would interfere with job" (38%), or "Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant" (25%) is somehow necessary?

That is seriously depraved.

Working Poor
01-12-2013, 10:10 AM
The repubs dropped the ball during the 70s on this issue. Fight it at the local level if you must be leave it out of the federal elections.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 10:11 AM
The repubs dropped the ball during the 70s on this issue. Fight it at the local level if you must be leave it out of the federal elections.

It's a federal issue because the Roe v. Wade decision federalized the abortion issue.

Origanalist
01-12-2013, 10:12 AM
Why is it necessary? Look at the reasons women have abortions as I posted above. And this info came from a pro-abortion group. 99% of the reasons are for convenience. Is that a necessary reason to destroy human life? How screwed are we as a society if we say that a woman who gets pregnant and then decides to destroy that life because it "Would interfere with job" (38%), or "Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant" (25%) is somehow necessary?

That is seriously depraved.

Seems to be a lot of that going around.

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 10:40 AM
I see no other logical conclusion to my statement.

A canoe full of marines could takeover your utopia. I'd adopt a more logical position considering the world we live in. Safely taking anarchy that far can only be done on a newly inhabited planet.

Philhelm
01-12-2013, 10:41 AM
Abortion is sad, but necessary. I would suggest very early on.

It is up to the woman, and perhaps close relatives. But I do believe predominately the woman must make the choice. I don't believe in restricting an abortion.

Then the father shouldn't be financially liable if he would choose to abort when the mother won't.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 10:49 AM
Man oh man...wish I had a hundred bucks for every time the same old tried-and-failed arguments have been paraded as "right" in this IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCE.

familydog
01-12-2013, 10:55 AM
A canoe full of marines could takeover your utopia. I'd adopt a more logical position considering the world we live in. Safely taking anarchy that far can only be done on a newly inhabited planet.

Ok, cool.

That still leaves the root cause of abortions ignored.

pcosmar
01-12-2013, 10:57 AM
It should have never been made "legal".
That genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

It became socially acceptable (sadly) and changing the laws now would cause a multiple of new problems.

I would like to see the clinics simply go out of business due to lack of business.

not by LAW,, but by being socially unacceptable, (as it once was)

MelissaWV
01-12-2013, 11:35 AM
I wish they'd maybe have done a followup question where they asked how important the individuals answering felt these hypothetical changes to the laws were.

More important than the economy?
Overseas wars?
Fighting "terrorists"?
Education?
Healthcare?

Abortion and gay rights are brought up over and over again, and really there are a few things done on local levels about it (which is just fine with me), but is this the issue people care most about? Moreover, are we at least willing to have the conversation about how responsible the father has to be when the woman has all the "choice" in the matter? Without that, then discussing changes to abortion laws is just asking for more of a mess and fewer and fewer freedoms.

MelissaWV
01-12-2013, 11:55 AM
Oh and then there's...


(Georgia GOP Rep. Phil) Gingrey's morning talk was wide-ranging. He also discussed comments made by Akin, in which Akin said victims of "legitimate rape" don't often become pregnant because the woman's body has "ways to try to shut that whole thing down.”

Gingrey argued that Akin, who may have lost his election because of those comments, was in part right.

“What he meant by legitimate rape was just look, someone can say I was raped: a scared-to-death 15-year-old that becomes impregnated by her boyfriend and then has to tell her parents, that’s pretty tough and might on some occasion say, ‘Hey, I was raped.’ That’s what he meant when he said legitimate rape versus nonlegitimate rape," Gingrey, an OB-GYN physician since 1975, said. "I don’t find anything so horrible about that. But then he went on and said that in a situation of rape, of a legitimate rape, a woman’s body has a way of shutting down so the pregnancy would not occur. He’s partly right on that.”

He continued: “I’ve delivered lots of babies, and I know about these things. It is true. We tell infertile couples all the time that are having trouble conceiving because of the woman not ovulating, ‘Just relax. Drink a glass of wine. And don’t be so tense and uptight, because all that adrenaline can cause you not to ovulate.’ So he was partially right, wasn’t he? But the fact that a woman may have already ovulated 12 hours before she is raped, you’re not going to prevent a pregnancy there by a woman’s body shutting anything down, because the horse has already left the barn, so to speak. And yet the media took that and tore it apart.”

Brett85
01-12-2013, 12:11 PM
Abortion is the most important political issue by far. The innocent babies that are being murdered in the womb have no liberty and have no rights at all. Our government doesn't even believe they have the right to be born.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 12:25 PM
Abortion is the most important political issue by far...

To YOU.

I disagree, BY FAR.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 12:28 PM
To YOU.

I disagree, BY FAR.

Then you don't seem to understand what Ron Paul says about how defending life is essential to defending liberty.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 12:32 PM
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/08/26/305485/ron-paul-abortion-is-the-most-important-issue-of-our-age/

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 12:33 PM
Then you don't seem to understand what Ron Paul says about how defending life is essential to defending liberty.

Ron Paul is not GOD. Life does not begin at conception because HE sez so.

How many times have you made and heard the same arguments on Abortion? In your imagination, will a critical voting mass one day agree with you?

I repeat: The "social conservative" position on Abortion & the MANMADE construct of "reproductive rights" COST Republicans in the last election.

Nirvikalpa
01-12-2013, 12:36 PM
Then you don't seem to understand what Ron Paul says about how defending life is essential to defending liberty.

What's his opinion on the right to die? If every person has a right to his/her life, shouldn't they also have a right to their death?

Isn't that also defending liberty?

Ron Paul is not God... he is fallible.

Working Poor
01-12-2013, 12:40 PM
Abortion is the most important political issue by far. The innocent babies that are being murdered in the womb have no liberty and have no rights at all. Our government doesn't even believe they have the right to be born.

We will never win another election if we continue to make abortion our signature issue. I believe it is sad but women have been having abortions for centuries. The very best we can do about it is to advise against it.

At a liberal site I go to they were praising abortion because it cause it slows the crime taste.....

Working Poor
01-12-2013, 12:45 PM
Abortion is the most important political issue by far. The innocent babies that are being murdered in the womb have no liberty and have no rights at all. Our government doesn't even believe they have the right to be born.

We will never win another election if we continue to make abortion our signature issue. I believe it is sad but women have been having abortions for centuries. The very best we can do about it is to advise against it.

At a liberal site I go to they were praising abortion because it slows the crime rate.....

Brett85
01-12-2013, 12:52 PM
What's his opinion on the right to die? If every person has a right to his/her life, shouldn't they also have a right to their death?

Isn't that also defending liberty?

Ron Paul is not God... he is fallible.

That's an entirely different issue, and yes, Ron Paul has said in the past that he supports allowing doctor assisted suicide.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 12:55 PM
I repeat: The "social conservative" position on Abortion & the MANMADE construct of "reproductive rights" COST Republicans in the last election.

That's BS. It may have cost the GOP Senate seats in Missouri and Indiana, but it didn't cost Romney the election in any way whatsoever. Romney was the most pro choice candidate the Republicans have ever nominated; he supported all kinds of exceptions to an abortion ban and also said that he wouldn't support any additional federal abortion laws. Romney lost because President Obama's approval rating on election day was 50%, and he ended up getting 50% of the vote. It's that simple.

MelissaWV
01-12-2013, 12:56 PM
I wasn't saying abortion was unimportant. There are a number of social issues that are hugely important to me, too, and several legal issues that are currently rushing down the wrong path at an alarming rate.

What I am saying is that whether or not someone you've never met is going to kill their fetus tends to pale compared to a lot of the stuff going on.

pcosmar was onto something earlier, and for some reason people gloss over it. Is someone in your family going to get an abortion? Why do you think that is or isn't the case? Can we focus on making our family unit stronger, on offering support in the face of bad decisions, and giving the impression that we will assist first, and work with the woman in question until a satisfactory solution is found for mother and child and family? Or must we squabble so loudly about what's going on in someone else's womb that we don't notice what's going on under our own roof? Abortion has always happened, but it used to carry far more social consequences.

Keith and stuff
01-12-2013, 12:56 PM
Funny debate today at the county GOP meeting. It turned into an abortion debate after people were trying to explain why they things the GOP lost some ground in the area. It seems the state committee woman might be pro-choice, as were most of the Republicans talking at the meeting. The person that endorsed Ron Paul while she was a NH State Rep. appeared to be the only person taking the pro-life position. Than the meeting chair had to break up the argument. I'd not surprised that most of the GOP folks in my area are pro-choice. After all, the survey showed that 90% of people are pro-choice and NH is known for election pro-choice Republicans to the national committee and the US Congress.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 01:11 PM
What I am saying is that whether or not someone you've never met is going to kill their fetus tends to pale compared to a lot of the stuff going on.

I just disagree. I think the only issue that's as important as defending the unborn is stopping the killing of innocent people overseas, which is the same kind of issue and is probably equally important.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 01:13 PM
I just disagree. I think the only issue that's as important as defending the unborn is stopping the killing of innocent people overseas, which is the same kind of issue and is probably equally important.


Wow.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 01:15 PM
Wow.

What we should be saying "wow" about is the fact that you seem to think it's wrong to kill innocent people overseas, but think it's perfectly fine to kill innocent babies in the womb.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 01:19 PM
I repeat: The "social conservative" position on Abortion & the MANMADE construct of "reproductive rights" COST Republicans in the last election.



That's BS.


You WANT it to be bullshit. You believe it SHOULD be bullshit. But it's true.



It may have cost the GOP Senate seats in Missouri and Indiana, but it didn't cost Romney the election in any way whatsoever. Romney was the most pro choice candidate the Republicans have ever nominated; he supported all kinds of exceptions to an abortion ban and also said that he wouldn't support any additional federal abortion laws. Romney lost because President Obama's approval rating on election day was 50%, and he ended up getting 50% of the vote.

Outside the Romney clan and perhaps the larger Mormon demographic, I don't think Romney was ever intended or expected to win. That said, his position on Abortion "evolved", as did several other of his positions while he PANDERED TO HARDRIGHT to "win" the GOP primary.

Moreover, a coupla Senate seats is a BIG DEAL.





It's that simple.

You WANT it to be simple, because your BELIEFS are clear.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 01:24 PM
A President who's up for re-election isn't going to get a lower percentage of the vote than what his approval rating is. A slight majority of people still approved of President Obama's job performance on election day, and it wasn't possible for Romney to win people over who thought that Obama was doing a good job as President. Whether we like it or not, a slight majority of the American people approved of the job performance of a President who governed as a hardcore socialist, and those people voted to re-elect him.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Also, I don't want to win elections if it means we have to abandon core principles. I would rather just lose election after election than come out in favor of the mass murder of an entire group of people.

MelissaWV
01-12-2013, 01:37 PM
1. I don't even like cheapseats, but your paraphrase of what she said is in poor taste. I don't recall reading where cheapseats said aborting babies was okay but killing people overseas wasn't. Things aren't that black & white on the best of days, and if you're going to accuse someone of saying something monstrous, you should actually wait until they say it.

2. You are quoting job performance polls as if they are rocket science. They aren't. Moreover, the president is not elected via popular vote. Lastly, you can think someone's doing an awesome job... and then not go vote for them. The problem has repeatedly been that the GOP primary process winds up vetting and nominating a candidate that is about as exciting as paint drying. Yes, a part of this is making social and moral issues front and center, and entwining it with the identity of both the nominee and the party doing the nominating.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 01:41 PM
Also, I don't want to win elections if it means we have to abandon core principles.


Anyone who abandons a "core principle" based on election results OBVIOUSLY does not hold that core principle.

Trouble is, you extrapolate a core principle about Life to UNBORN "people", then elevate "rights of the Unborn" (lol) above rights of the LIVING. Extrapolating this strongly held BELIEF...constitutional rights for the UNBORN...is a wet dream for Legal Eagles, by the by.




I would rather just lose election after election

Easily done.




than come out in favor of the mass murder of an entire group of people.

got hyperbole?

Brett85
01-12-2013, 01:43 PM
Romney performed better against Obama in the head to head polls than any other Republican, including Ron. (Although Ron was actually 2nd) The sad fact of the matter is that our country has taken a hard turn to the left and towards big government and decided to re-elect Obama. That's just what all the polls show. The only way that things are going to turn around and change people's minds is if we have some sort of economic collapse between now and 2016. I don't want that to happen, but it seems as though that's the only thing that will actually wake people up at this point.

MelissaWV
01-12-2013, 01:44 PM
You really do love your polls. You might take a detour and research how they're actually conducted, and how good a predictor they are of outcomes :)

Brett85
01-12-2013, 01:44 PM
Trouble is, you extrapolate a core principle about Life to UNBORN "people", then elevate "rights of the Unborn" (lol) above the rights of the LIVING.

No, I simply want the unborn to have the same rights as the living, which is the right to life.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 01:46 PM
You really do love your polls. You might take a detour and research how they're actually conducted, and how good a predictor they are of outcomes :)

They were extremely accurate this time, except that they even underestimated Obama's performance by a small amount. (Possibly due to Romney's project ORCA failure.)

Smart3
01-12-2013, 03:43 PM
The whole thing


Please elaborate?

The percentages correspond to the original post. 11% who oppose all abortion restrictions... etc

Now with respect to the last bit, I was trying to compare the embryonic process of mammals to plants and trees.

DamianTV
01-12-2013, 04:00 PM
... and to the Republic for which it stands ...

People seem to be under the misconception that if they are a part of a Majority, that somehow makes them Moral and in the right. Thankfully, our founding fathers knew better than this and did everything in their power to prevent us from having a Democracy. They gave us a Republic. Now, many of us want to throw that away because of the enticements of a Democracy when the individual finds that they are part of a Majority on a particular subject.

So instead of talking about Abortion, let me use Homosexuality as an analogy. The majority of people are straight. But being straight, regardless of being a part of a Majority, does not give a straight person the Right to take away from another persons Right to be a Homosexual. In a Republic, the Majority is not recognized as having any more Rights than the Minority, nor are they recognized to have any Right to take away from the Minority.

Abortion is absolutely no different. If you dont agree with abortion, fine. But don't act like just because you are part of a Majority that it gives you the Right to deprive me of my or anyone elses Right. If I commit a crime, it is not for you to hold me responsible for my actions. That is the purpose and function of the Law. And the Law can not recognize the demands of a Majority as a valid reason to deprive a Minority of their Rights.

It is not possible to legislate Morality, especially when its foundation is based on a False Sense of Morality. Again, being part of a Majority does not entitle you to have any say so in deciding what you expect my Morality should be. To do so is to falsely validate the demands of the Majority as being Moral. Being a part of the Majority in no way shape or form validates something as being Moral or Immoral. And to believe that it somehow does so is to hide behind a False Sense of Morality based on being a part of a Majority.

If my wife and I decide that she needs to have an abortion, it is no one elses decision but our own. It is not yours to decide for me based on being a part of a Majority. It is not for those who hide their own immoral actions behind their false sense of morality. It is not even for people who would agree with our decision to be a part of. It is ours, and ours alone. The decision that my wife and I might make does not infringe on your Rights. And we are within our Rights to make these decisions for ourselves because they do not infringe upon yours. You do not get to claim that the fetus has Rights which you have the responsibility to defend, because it is not yours, and again, it infringes upon my Right to make that decision. It is not a decision for you to make, and you do not have a Right to do so. Claiming that you have the Right to infringe upon my Rights is a violation of the very definition of what a Right actually is.

The decision to have an abortion is my Right. And I will NOT give up that right under any circumstances.

(Disclaimer: This post is not directed at any specific member, but generalized for those who think that no one should have the Right to have an abortion.)

dinosaur
01-12-2013, 04:10 PM
There is no such thing as a right to murder an innocent. Laws against murder are good because they protect inalienable rights.

DamianTV
01-12-2013, 04:56 PM
There is no such thing as a right to murder an innocent. Laws against murder are good because they protect inalienable rights.

There is no such thing as you having the Right to decide what my Rights are.

dinosaur
01-12-2013, 05:05 PM
There is no such thing as you having the Right to decide what my Rights are.

Your rights end where they infringe on the rights of another. There is such a thing as not having the right to take away the rights of another. Murder fits into the category of depriving another person of their rights. This has nothing to do with me deciding what your rights are. It is simply impossible for any of us to both have rights, and also have the right to take away other people's rights at the same time.

Warrior_of_Freedom
01-12-2013, 05:07 PM
the thing that disgusts me most are the people who say the fetus is a parasite, or isn't a human.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 05:14 PM
Significant abortion restrictions includes those who want to limit it to the first 3 months. A lot of people hold that position, or similar positions and consider themselves pro-choice.


There is no such thing as a right to murder an innocent. Laws against murder are good because they protect inalienable rights.


Some buy into PERSONHOOD PRIOR TO VIABILITY OUTSIDE THE WOMB...some don't. Some BELIEVE that conception, POOF, confers Personhood and all attendant rights...some don't. (Lawyers are salivating.)

Notice that in REAL homicide cases, the question is whether the killer had cause...NOT whether the deceased was actually a PERSON.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 05:27 PM
Trouble is, you extrapolate a core principle about Life to UNBORN "people", then elevate "rights of the Unborn" (lol) above rights of the LIVING. Extrapolating this strongly held BELIEF...constitutional rights for the UNBORN...is a wet dream for Legal Eagles, by the by.



No, I simply want the unborn to have the same rights as the living, which is the right to life.


No, you "simply" want UNBORN (which needs a HOST BODY to actualize) to have "right to life", even in an UNWILLING (sovereign, in my world) host body. The mother/host's "right to life" is actually a right to live as you prescribe.

dinosaur
01-12-2013, 05:34 PM
Even outside the womb, full term babies still need a host body to actualize. They can't exactly survive on their own. Interdependence is a messy fact of life.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 05:42 PM
There is no such thing as you having the Right to decide what my Rights are.

Your rights don't include the right to murder innocent people.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 05:42 PM
Even outside the womb, full term babies still need a host body to actualize. They can't exactly survive on their own.

Women have been dying in childbirth since women have been giving birth. Once BORN, the person-baby most certainly CAN survive/actualize without the host body that is, as yet, still required to bring about a PERSON.



Interdependence is a messy fact of life.

It wouldn't be so bad, but for the PEOPLE. People really gum up the works. Can't live with 'em...can't SELL ANYTHING without 'em.

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 05:43 PM
Your rights don't include the right to murder innocent people.


Some buy into PERSONHOOD PRIOR TO VIABILITY OUTSIDE THE WOMB...some don't. Some BELIEVE that conception, POOF, confers Personhood and all attendant rights...some don't. (Lawyers are salivating.)

Notice that in REAL homicide cases, the question is whether the killer had cause...NOT whether the deceased was actually a PERSON.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 05:45 PM
Even outside the womb, full term babies still need a host body to actualize. They can't exactly survive on their own. Interdependence is a messy fact of life.

Exactly. He's basically making the argument that anyone who relies on someone else in order to survive isn't an actually a human being. If you take that principle and apply it logically, it means that people should have the legal right to go blow up a rest home full of elderly people who can't survive on their own.

Brett85
01-12-2013, 05:46 PM
Some buy into PERSONHOOD PRIOR TO VIABILITY OUTSIDE THE WOMB...some don't. Some BELIEVE that conception, POOF, confers Personhood and all attendant rights...some don't. (Lawyers are salivating.)

And some might not believe that life begins until a child turns ten years old. Who are you to force your personal beliefs on them and tell them that they don't have the legal right to kill their eight year old child if they wish to?

cheapseats
01-12-2013, 05:48 PM
Exactly. He's basically making the argument that anyone who relies on someone else in order to survive isn't an actually a human being.

On this matter, you are an Hysteric.

Peace.

dinosaur
01-12-2013, 05:48 PM
[QUOTE=cheapseats;4819971]Women have been dying in childbirth since women have been giving birth. Once BORN, the person-baby most certainly CAN survive/actualize without the host body that is (as yet still) required to bring about a PERSON.
Without the host body, but not without a host body. Babies pretty much need a full time slave after they are born. They can not survive on their own.

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 08:44 PM
Abortion is sad, but necessary. I would suggest very early on.

It is up to the woman, and perhaps close relatives. But I do believe predominately the woman must make the choice. I don't believe in restricting an abortion.

The man has a say in it too. It's the father's child as well.

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 09:01 PM
A President who's up for re-election isn't going to get a lower percentage of the vote than what his approval rating is. A slight majority of people still approved of President Obama's job performance on election day, and it wasn't possible for Romney to win people over who thought that Obama was doing a good job as President. Whether we like it or not, a slight majority of the American people approved of the job performance of a President who governed as a hardcore socialist, and those people voted to re-elect him.

It didn't help that Romney was also a hardcore socialist.

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 09:04 PM
The percentages correspond to the original post. 11% who oppose all abortion restrictions... etc

Now with respect to the last bit, I was trying to compare the embryonic process of mammals to plants and trees.

Define "mammal".

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 09:13 PM
the thing that disgusts me most are the people who say the fetus is a parasite, or isn't a human.

If an unborn human being is a parasite, then every living thing on Earth is a parasite.




Oh wait...

Smart3
01-12-2013, 09:50 PM
The man has a say in it too. It's the father's child as well.
It's not his child until he's holding it in his hands.

It's a stupid idea to have male consent anyways, 80% of women getting abortions are not married. So there's a good chance that they hardly know the guy. Or are you only talking about spousal consent, which makes much more sense?


Define "mammal".
All animals descended from proto-mammals (ie, reptiles who ceased being reptiles and became something new)

The full definition has about 60 words in it.

MelissaWV
01-12-2013, 09:52 PM
It's not his child until he's holding it in his hands.

It's a stupid idea to have male consent anyways, 80% of women getting abortions are not married. So there's a good chance that they hardly know the guy. Or are you only talking about spousal consent, which makes much more sense?

No, male consent. As in, if she can use the fact he fathered the child to make him pay for the child or face criminal sanctions, he should have a say in the "choice" or be exempt from child support.

Smart3
01-12-2013, 09:53 PM
No, male consent. As in, if she can use the fact he fathered the child to make him pay for the child or face criminal sanctions, he should have a say in the "choice" or be exempt from child support.
I totally agree, I know from personal experience how stupid child support can be.

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 11:04 PM
It's not his child until he's holding it in his hands.

It's a stupid idea to have male consent anyways, 80% of women getting abortions are not married. So there's a good chance that they hardly know the guy. Or are you only talking about spousal consent, which makes much more sense?


All animals descended from proto-mammals (ie, reptiles who ceased being reptiles and became something new)

The full definition has about 60 words in it.

Yes it is the father's baby as well. It is 50/50. A woman cannot make a baby by herself. Conception is 50/50. Your FEMINAZI BULLSHIT LIES will not work on me, comrade.

John F Kennedy III
01-12-2013, 11:19 PM
No, male consent. As in, if she can use the fact he fathered the child to make him pay for the child or face criminal sanctions, he should have a say in the "choice" or be exempt from child support.

Exactly. Well said.

Smart3
01-12-2013, 11:47 PM
Yes it is the father's baby as well. It is 50/50. A woman cannot make a baby by herself. Conception is 50/50. Your FEMINAZI BULLSHIT LIES will not work on me, comrade.
How do I respond to such misogyny? I'm a guy and I can feel the hate you have for women.

/ignored.

Origanalist
01-12-2013, 11:58 PM
How do I respond to such misogyny? I'm a guy and I can feel the hate you have for women.

/ignored.I'm a male and I can feel the hate you have for men.

Origanalist
01-13-2013, 12:05 AM
The percentages correspond to the original post. 11% who oppose all abortion restrictions... etc

Now with respect to the last bit, I was trying to compare the embryonic process of mammals to plants and trees.

"The percentages correspond to the original post. 11% who oppose all abortion restrictions... etc"

Absolutely unsurprised.

"Now with respect to the last bit, I was trying to compare the embryonic process of mammals to plants and trees. "

See above.

And this little gem?




Abortion saves lives.

.

John F Kennedy III
01-13-2013, 12:40 AM
How do I respond to such misogyny? I'm a guy and I can feel the hate you have for women.

/ignored.

LOL.

Janet wins again.

DamianTV
01-13-2013, 02:41 AM
Your rights end where they infringe on the rights of another. There is such a thing as not having the right to take away the rights of another. Murder fits into the category of depriving another person of their rights. This has nothing to do with me deciding what your rights are. It is simply impossible for any of us to both have rights, and also have the right to take away other people's rights at the same time.

That is exactly right. And no one has no right to deprive me of my right to decide to abort.

Origanalist
01-13-2013, 08:19 AM
LOL.

Janet wins again.

No shit, huh? My guess is it wasn't much of a battle though.

Origanalist
01-13-2013, 08:25 AM
That is exactly right. And no one has no right to deprive me of my right to decide to abort.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4830048067257756&pid=15.1

Nirvikalpa
01-13-2013, 11:04 AM
That's an entirely different issue, and yes, Ron Paul has said in the past that he supports allowing doctor assisted suicide.

No he doesn't. He is very against doctor assisted suicide, he is against euthanasia.


"I am strongly pro-life. I think one of the most disastrous rulings of this century was Roe versus Wade. I do believe in the slippery slope theory. I believe that if people are careless and casual about life at the beginning of life, we will be careless and casual about life at the end. Abortion leads to euthanasia. I believe that.

I disagree with the Oregon law [Death With Dignity Act]. If I were in Oregon, I would vote against that law...

If we can come here in the Congress and decide that the Oregon law is bad, what says we cannot go to Texas and get rid of the Texas law that protects life and prohibits euthanasia...

As bad as the Oregon law is, this is not the way we should deal with the problem. This bill applies the same principle as Roe versus Wade...

I believe that nobody can be more pro-life than I am, nobody who could condemn the trends of what is happening in this country in the movement toward euthanasia and the chances that one day euthanasia will be determined by the national government because of economic conditions. But this bill does not deal with life and makes a difficult situation much worse."

angelatc
01-13-2013, 12:08 PM
How do I respond to such misogyny? I'm a guy and I can feel the hate you have for women.

/ignored.

I'm a female, and I can feel the superiority you feel over women and the hate you have for babies.

/bite me

otherone
01-13-2013, 12:20 PM
What difference does 80% of anybody for anything make?

cheapseats
01-13-2013, 12:23 PM
What difference does 80% of anybody for anything make?


Baby Boom classic, as interpreted by John Travolta in LOOK WHO'S TALKING: ""If your friend jumps off a bridge, does that mean you've got to?"

otherone
01-13-2013, 12:24 PM
Your rights don't include the right to murder innocent people.

You have the Right to murder guilty people?

cheapseats
01-13-2013, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative
Your rights don't include the right to murder innocent people.


And YOUR rights do not include dictating that Personhood begins at conception.

DamianTV
01-14-2013, 02:08 AM
And YOUR rights do not include dictating that Personhood begins at conception.

No ones Rights extend so far as to define what Rights are for others. As far as I am concerned, when it comes to the individual, the individual has Unlimited Rights to do as they see fit with themselves. That means literally anything that does not infringe on anyone elses Rights. Smoking, Drinking, Drugs, Self Abuse, and even so far as purposeful intentional suicide. Rights between two people is an agreement. Violation of Rights between two people is handled either by Civil or Criminal Law, depending on whether or not said violation is a contractual (civil) violation, or a criminal act (resulting in injury or damage). The thing about the two people Rights is that the Third Party does not get to dictate to the Courts or the Government what they think they should be guilty of. There are plenty of people in jail simply because the majority of the Jury did not like some particular aspect of the defendant. Wrong religion, wrong skin color, wrong sex, wrong side of the tracks. As a result, if you are not a member of the Jury and are not the Judge, you dont get to decide the fate of someone else. That includes witnesses. Witnesses are expected to state for the record only what they have witnessed or observed, which, oddly enough, is why they are called witnesses. What is happening in this entire abortion argument people get so wrapped up in is that they are sticking their noses where it doesnt belong based on their own personal beliefs and opinions. Most people have more than one neighbor. Your two neighbors have some interaction that doesnt involve a third party, the thrid party does not get to dictate anything to the involved parties, whether it is an offer to work, for sex, and extends even to death. That is to say that your neighbors have a disagreement and one dies as a result of the conflict, it is not your place to administer justice on the person you think is guilty. That is for the Law to decide. And trying to take some moral high ground of calling an abortion "murder" is also not for the third party to decide. Keep in mind that these people who cry "abortion is murder" are the same people that would force others to artificially extend the life of people who would be dead of natural causes already on that same moral high ground. They see no problem with inducing unwarranted suffering of an individual because they believe their morals somehow make them superior to others, and those other people should not be allowed to decide what is right and wrong. Bla bla bla its wrong in the eyes of God. Your god, maybe. And if he/she/they/it actually has a problem, then their gods would also say it is not for the third party to administer punishment or judgement. But they cant get that through their thick fucking skulls. Abortion is the most perfect example of False Sense of Morality that could possibly be used to define the phrase. Morals are Subjective Opinions. Good and Evil are Subjective Terms based on Opinions. However, due to people in general trying to present their Subjective Opinion as Objective fact, I.E. say that Abortion is Evil, it distorts the true perspective of the issue, which, again, all boils down to the Third Party getting any sort of say so in what others mutually concent to do. And to try to apply a religious perspective for force morality of this issue not only infringes on the Rights of the concentual parties, but, in my humble opinion, continues to allow religion and law to pervert the definition of morality.

Warrior_of_Freedom
01-14-2013, 02:31 AM
in 2008 234 per 1000 children were aborted

Smart3
01-15-2013, 10:50 PM
I'm a female, and I can feel the superiority you feel over women and the hate you have for babies.

/bite me

I wish I were a woman, you dunce. I'm tempted to accept your invitation to bite you.