One last plea: For the love of God, can we PLEASE secede???

[Anti Federalist]

I know, enough talk...

But why, for the love of God, can't we just peacefully go our own way and "divorce" instead gearing up to slaughter each other?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Because we live in the Matrix and all the Agent Smiths out there want us to assimilate or be deleted

[phill4paul]

I am with you. A true, honest, gesture of goodwill among men.

600k in a nation of 31 million lost their lives because of similar issues. Now, in a nation 300 million are we willing to lose 6 million? Is 6 million lives worth the cost of "Union?" I would rather no lives be lost and dissolution be implemented. We have come upon the point of no impasse. So either we get to it or we find a way around it. The time for debating is done.

[WarAnonymous]

Unfortunately there is no peaceful way... The peaceful revolution has failed. As much as I want to think getting people elected locally and state-wide and even in the US congress, the system is to far gone. There won't be anything left in 2016, and there wont be enough liberty people elected in 2014 to make a difference. Each and every passing bill I just sit and wonder when do people actually say enough is enough? It will only continue to get worse and worse.

Succeeding was the only next peaceful step but it has become apparent that this will not be allowed. We will all go down in the ship together.

Someone close to me recently asked why I am so willing to die for freedom and my only response was... If freedom isn't worth dying for then what is the reason to live? We have been taught all along that we need to die for freedom, unfortunately the freedom we were taught to die for is killing innocent people around the world and say that it makes us free. The morality, the spirituality, and the heart and soul is no longer here.

If the system collapses it will only bring people to beg for government take over, so that they might be able to eat, and take care of there families. All the writing, blogging and complaining will not save this country.

[paulbot24]

Have you actually seen a "civilized" divorce? No matter what they say in the beginning, it always gets ugly.

[Anti Federalist]

////

[deadfish]

Go for it man...

[TheTexan]

Secession is indeed our last chance at avoiding the needless deaths of enormous amounts of people.

Yes, it is true secession may itself trigger a civil war. But with secession there is at least a chance at peace. The course we're on now, left unchanged, will guarantee bloodshed.

Can we get any input from people involved in their state politics, in the states where secession is at least remotely possible? NH, Wyoming, Texas, etc. What kind of pressure points can we leverage to make it possible? (Debt, 2A, etc?)

If we do try to get a secession effort going, it's very late in the game right now... we should have been at this years ago. We may not even have another round of elections before the shit starts to fly.

[TheTexan]

Have you actually seen a "civilized" divorce? No matter what they say in the beginning, it always gets ugly.

There's ugly, and then there's ugly. Divorce avoids the latter.

[TheTexan]

Unfortunately there is no peaceful way... The peaceful revolution has failed. As much as I want to think getting people elected locally and state-wide and even in the US congress, the system is to far gone. There won't be anything left in 2016, and there wont be enough liberty people elected in 2014 to make a difference. Each and every passing bill I just sit and wonder when do people actually say enough is enough? It will only continue to get worse and worse.

Succeeding was the only next peaceful step but it has become apparent that this will not be allowed. We will all go down in the ship together.

You are most likely correct. We should plan for the worst, but still try I think.

[acptulsa]

Of course we may not. If we secede, we show exactly how much better our liberty works than their micromismanagement. Then everyone we left behind starts clamoring for the same advantages. If not because they want liberty, then because we're having an economic boom to rival the Roaring Twenties and they aren't.

They can't have that.

[FrancisMarion]

Please define "We".

[phill4paul]

Have you actually seen a "civilized" divorce? No matter what they say in the beginning, it always gets ugly.

Actually, I had one. The ex and I still talk to this day.

[heavenlyboy34]

Y'all remember not to fire the first shot, okay? Don't want to be blamed for starting civil war 2, ya know. (great shades of Fort Sumpter, and all that)

[TheTexan]

Y'all remember not to fire the first shot, okay? Don't want to be blamed for starting civil war 2, ya know. (great shades of Fort Sumpter, and all that)

This.

However, we may not have much choice. They will most likely false flag the first shot. Almost guaranteed.

[LibForestPaul]

I know, enough talk...

But why, for the love of God, can't we just peacefully go our own way and "divorce" instead gearing up to slaughter each other?

Why do you believe livestock can leave? Where is the farmer to get milk and eggs from? If he opens the gate for the roughest of bulls to go, what is to stop the other animals from leaving? Do you want the farmer to starve? He does not produce milk, nor eggs, nor foie gra? You are cruel.

[PierzStyx]

Unfortunately there is no peaceful way... The peaceful revolution has failed. As much as I want to think getting people elected locally and state-wide and even in the US congress, the system is to far gone. There won't be anything left in 2016, and there wont be enough liberty people elected in 2014 to make a difference. Each and every passing bill I just sit and wonder when do people actually say enough is enough? It will only continue to get worse and worse.

Succeeding was the only next peaceful step but it has become apparent that this will not be allowed. We will all go down in the ship together.

Someone close to me recently asked why I am so willing to die for freedom and my only response was... If freedom isn't worth dying for then what is the reason to live? We have been taught all along that we need to die for freedom, unfortunately the freedom we were taught to die for is killing innocent people around the world and say that it makes us free. The morality, the spirituality, and the heart and soul is no longer here.

If the system collapses it will only bring people to beg for government take over, so that they might be able to eat, and take care of there families. All the writing, blogging and complaining will not save this country.

Peace only fails when you return evil for evil, violence for violence. The minute you refuse to bow you are free, no matter what they may do or say, even if they kill you.

[ghengis86]

I've never heard a good answer for why a group of people can't live on their own, on their own land, free from any body telling them how to live...

[heavenlyboy34]

I've never heard a good answer for why a group of people can't live on their own, on their own land, free from any body telling them how to live...
Neither have I. People usually tell me I'm naive, utopian, etc when I ask that.

[lx43]

I know, enough talk...

But why, for the love of God, can't we just peacefully go our own way and "divorce" instead gearing up to slaughter each other?

I have been writing my Congressmen, state leaders, and local politicians for sometime to just allow me to peacefully opt-out, nullify, or secede from the current system. Mostly I get no response but when I do its reads something like I should feel fortunate to be able to pay taxes and live in this great country. :mad:

I wish Rand, Amash, Massie or someone else would just start an opt-out or nullification movement. And even propose legislation in Congress and state capitals.

[heavenlyboy34]

I know, enough talk...

But why, for the love of God, can't we just peacefully go our own way and "divorce" instead gearing up to slaughter each other?
You got me thinking about this, and I have a a better metaphor-emancipation. Child emancipation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors), that is. This sort of thing is relatively painless. After all, the regime has in many ways become a parent to Boobus Americanus- "educating" him, "protecting" him, etc.

[awake]

Slavery does not allow anyone leaving.

[Carehn]

Its like this forum is simply my mind posting its thoughts online! I was thinking all day about how I am just so ready to leave the country or something. Maybe get a bunch of people and try buying an island somewhere. lol Just a bad depressed day. Then I come home and all my thoughts are posted in this thread.

[ghengis86]

Slavery does not allow anyone leaving.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!!

[Matt Collins]

I know, enough talk...

But why, for the love of God, can't we just peacefully go our own way and "divorce" instead gearing up to slaughter each other?You can, but you have to strong arm those in your state who have the power to do so. That means being politically involved and having political power yourself. Nothing happens unless it's pushed.

[heavenlyboy34]

You can, but you have to strong arm those in your state who have the power to do so. That means being politically involved and having political power yourself. Nothing happens unless it's pushed. If you mean playing by the regime's rules in little farcical displays called "elections", not so much. The only way that will get you anywhere is if you have someone on your own team running on every ticket (which is what the regime does). Beating them at their own game is something I don't see you, Tate or anyone outside a few fringe kooks like me talking about. Face it, TPTB will never play fair. If you're going to stoop to playing their pathetic little game, do it right.

The politicians, as a rule, are never going to do what's right and necessary-it's not popular, nor is it in their self-interest. If problems actually got solved, the politicians would have little to no "work" to do and the usual palms would not get greased.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I know, enough talk...

But why, for the love of God, can't we just peacefully go our own way and "divorce" instead gearing up to slaughter each other?

Amen, brother. Amen! Preaching to the choir, I know. :D

But yes, peaceful secession and coexistence would be far preferable to what is likely going to come down the pike. The Arab Spring and the movement for resolution to our problems here in the US are not coincidences. While I have no clue if there really is something like an "shared unconscious", its something that makes sense when you consider it. Things like Social Media have accelerated the process and the more cooperative we are with one another, the better.

[muh_roads]

I would not want to be in the first state to secede. They would get attacked hardcore. It would be a false flag so the US isn't blamed...The aristocrats would fund both sides of the war and the media would portray the US as heroes "saving that seceded nation" from the islamoboogiemen.

[cindy25]

Have you actually seen a "civilized" divorce? No matter what they say in the beginning, it always gets ugly.

the Czech Republic and Slovakia split easily, and peacefully.

it is possible that St Kitts will break with Nevis, or Trinidad from Tobago. even Scotland from the UK.

[Matt Collins]

If you mean playing by the regime's rules in little farcical displays called "elections", not so much. The only way that will get you anywhere is if you have someone on your own team running on every ticket (which is what the regime does). Beating them at their own game is something I don't see you, Tate or anyone outside a few fringe kooks like me talking about. Face it, TPTB will never play fair. If you're going to stoop to playing their pathetic little game, do it right.

The politicians, as a rule, are never going to do what's right and necessary-it's not popular, nor is it in their self-interest. If problems actually got solved, the politicians would have little to no "work" to do and the usual palms would not get greased.Completely untrue. You don't have to replace them, you just have to bully them into submission, if you threaten their reelection then you can do that. In fact a lot of times it's easier than that, get a few hundred people calling their office, or give them bad press, and they tend to change their tune most of the time.

As an activist you must be able to mobilize people to put pressure on the politicians. Other than writing big checks, that's the only way things change.

See this for a better understanding:
http://training4liberty.org/facl2/info.htm#


and this




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QCzww6EG7E

[LibertyEagle]

You can, but you have to strong arm those in your state who have the power to do so. That means being politically involved and having political power yourself. Nothing happens unless it's pushed.

Oh, come on now. You are suggesting that people actually get up off their asses and do something to change the situation we are in. That'll never happen. It's so much more effective to just bitch about the state of affairs on an internet message board.

[MelissaWV]

Have you actually seen a "civilized" divorce? No matter what they say in the beginning, it always gets ugly.

Mine.

[Matt Collins]

Oh, come on now. You are suggesting that people actually get up off their asses and do something to change the situation we are in. That'll never happen. It's so much more effective to just bitch about the state of affairs on an internet message board.Yeah, I think a lot of anarchists are just lazy and/or defeatists. They use their philosophy as an excuse to do nothing.

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, I think a lot of anarchists are just lazy and/or defeatists. They use their philosophy as an excuse to do nothing.

It ain't just the anarchists.

[TheTexan]

Completely untrue. You don't have to replace them, you just have to bully them into submission, if you threaten their reelection then you can do that. In fact a lot of times it's easier than that, get a few hundred people calling their office, or give them bad press, and they tend to change their tune most of the time.

As an activist you must be able to mobilize people to put pressure on the politicians. Other than writing big checks, that's the only way things change.

See this for a better understanding:
http://training4liberty.org/facl2/info.htm#

This only works for a few issues though. You won't be convincing the US House to decriminalize marijuana in this manner, for example.

It may soon be possible to use this to lobby the Texas Legislature for secession doing this sort of thing. It's unlikely, but within the realm of possibility, especially as the real fiscal cliff gets closer

[heavenlyboy34]

Yeah, I think a lot of anarchists are just lazy and/or defeatists. They use their philosophy as an excuse to do nothing.
:rolleyes: How many people do you know of that have time/money/resources to play political games as much as you do? I don't know any. What anarchist uses philosophy as an "excuse to do nothing"? They typically use it as an "excuse" to educate, write books, do work that produces something of value in the marketplace, etc.

[heavenlyboy34]

It ain't just the anarchists. Truth. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LibertyEagle again. :( I try to get ya when i get more ammo. ~hugs~

[TheTexan]

Maybe get a bunch of people and try buying an island somewhere.

Sounds like a plan lets do it

[Pauls' Revere]

Here is a lists of North American seprtatist movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_North_Ameri ca

http://middleburyinstitute.org/currentamericansecessionistgroups.html

http://www.secession.net/

[LibForestPaul]

Yeah, I think a lot of anarchists are just lazy and/or defeatists. They use their philosophy as an excuse to do nothing.

No, just realist. We've seen Soviet Russia bearing down on Poland, Hungary, Lativia, Lithuania, Georgia, Ukraine.
We see the deaths and the destruction, millions starved, millions murdered, entire cities laid to waste, and being a slave does not seem so bad.
We see the theft of our labor, the propaganda of the state, the theft of our guns.
And we know our future.

[Matt Collins]

:rolleyes: How many people do you know of that have time/money/resources to play political games as much as you do? I don't know any. I have no money or tangible resources other than my computer. I admit I tend to have more time than most, but that's only because I'm underemployed.

However many people will go out, watch TV, do movies, watch sports, etc instead of working on activism. I admit everyone's got to have some downtime, but most middle class Americans have the time for activism, but it just isn't a priority for them.



What anarchist uses philosophy as an "excuse to do nothing"?I know a bunch of them.

They typically use it as an "excuse" to educate, write books, do work that produces something of value in the marketplace, etc.Changing people's minds doesn't accomplish political change. Putting pressure on politicians accomplishes political change.

This movement has plenty of intellectuals who read and write and talk, and it's awesome. We are really the enlightened people of our time. However, it does us no good if we are nothing more than a debate society or a book club. We need muscle, not just brains.

[Matt Collins]

This only works for a few issues though. You won't be convincing the US House to decriminalize marijuana in this manner, for example.Power is so concentrated within the US Federal Government that it's very hard to do that there. It's not impossible, we got Audit The Fed passed in the house, but it took a huge political movement just to do it.

It however is MUCH easier to that sort of thing on the state level.

[Matt Collins]

No, just realist. We've seen Soviet Russia bearing down on Poland, Hungary, Lativia, Lithuania, Georgia, Ukraine.
We see the deaths and the destruction, millions starved, millions murdered, entire cities laid to waste, and being a slave does not seem so bad.
We see the theft of our labor, the propaganda of the state, the theft of our guns.
And we know our future.What are you doing about it?

[LibForestPaul]

What are you doing about it?
Conversing with people, supporting certain causes.
Don't worry, haven't always been so pessimestic. Only after talking with others did I get so jaded.
Ray of hope is that local law enforcement have no intentions of participating. But I suppose thats why the Feds have the DHS.

[juliusaugustus]

http://youtu.be/XQmO-WfEkk4
I wish I was Dixie. Hooray. In Dixie's Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie. Look away Dixie Land.

[NewRightLibertarian]

Changing people's minds doesn't accomplish political change. Putting pressure on politicians accomplishes political change.

This movement has plenty of intellectuals who read and write and talk, and it's awesome. We are really the enlightened people of our time. However, it does us no good if we are nothing more than a debate society or a book club. We need muscle, not just brains.

I agree with you, but political change isn't going to happen by cozying up to the worst of the Republican establishment.

[TheTexan]

Power is so concentrated within the US Federal Government that it's very hard to do that there. It's not impossible, we got Audit The Fed passed in the house, but it took a huge political movement just to do it.

It however is MUCH easier to that sort of thing on the state level.

Yes, which is why I would encourage people to get involved at the state level (I might do that myself shortly), and stay far, far away from the Federal Government.

You know how anarchists say participating in politics is an act of consent? At this point, I would say for any conservative/minarchist worth their salt, participating in national politics is an act of consent.

State politics is where its at. Nullify, nullify, nullify. As an added bonus of this approach, there is naturally a large education component, as nullification is a very powerful tool, both politically, and educationally. As more nullification bills get passed, people will get bolder, and bolder, as they realize their own power against the Federal Government.

Eventually, secession.

[Matt Collins]

Yes, which is why I would encourage people to get involved at the state level (I might do that myself shortly), and stay far, far away from the Federal Government.

State politics is where its at. Nullify, nullify, nullify. As an added bonus of this approach, there is naturally a large education component, as nullification is a very powerful tool, both politically, and educationally. As more nullification bills get passed, people will get bolder, and bolder, as they realize their own power against the Federal Government.

Eventually, secession.Pretty much. One person can actually have a pretty influential effect on the state level. I know because I've done it several times. The smaller the state the easier it is.

I don't even bother with the Congressional delegation much any more unless it's just to expose their hypocracy, but powrer in DC is too concentrated for most people to have much of an effect on what goes on there. I can happen, but it's very tough.

The focus should be at the state level, and specifically rejecting federal nonsense.

[Matt Collins]

I agree with you, but political change isn't going to happen by cozying up to the worst of the Republican establishment.No one is talking about "cozying up" to the Republican establishment. We're talking about being their opposition within the Party.

[heavenlyboy34]

Pretty much. One person can actually have a pretty influential effect on the state level. I know because I've done it several times. The smaller the state the easier it is.

I don't even bother with the Congressional delegation much any more unless it's just to expose their hypocracy, but powrer in DC is too concentrated for most people to have much of an effect on what goes on there. I can happen, but it's very tough.

The focus should be at the state level, and specifically rejecting federal nonsense.
Whoa, I actually agree with teh Collinz on something! :eek:

[otherone]

I wonder if prisoners would feel free if they could select a warden every four years....

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I wonder if prisoners would feel free if they could select a warden every four years....

As a Voluntaryist (Free Market Anarchist) I view voting as a defensive action: I'm trying my best to limit the power government uses over me. That does not mean I agree with government having power over me. I guess you could call it Protest Voting. Some other Voluntaryists I know look at it differently. They have their way, I have mine.

[Matt Collins]

I wonder if prisoners would feel free if they could select a warden every four years....your analogy is a fallacy

[Anti Federalist]

your analogy is a fallacy

Why?

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I know, enough talk...

But why, for the love of God, can't we just peacefully go our own way and "divorce" instead gearing up to slaughter each other?

As a Texan, I want to be part of the Union. Our Texas leaders are just as bad and cowardly as any as they aren't any less lawyers as the evil doers in and around Washington D.C.. Instead of secession, I want to draw a line along the border between what is left of us and that of the northeast including Pennsylvania and Virginia. Those cowards loyal to the cowards already living within the region I just defined can cross over the line and become a part of what will probably become the greatest example of a social communist state. The rest of us can continue on as a true Democratic Republic. I truly revere our Founding Fathers. I want to preserve the lightening we have in a bottle.