Bentivolio: I'm not really a Ron Paul person

[green73]

"I'm really a Ronald Reagan Republican — I'm not really a Ron Paul person. I respect Ron Paul a great deal," said Kerry Bentivoli (R-MI), who has libertarian leanings just like the retired Texas congressman who ran for president last year.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130106/POLITICS03/301060313#ixzz2HEsrJJN6

via
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2013/01/bentivolio-im-reagan-man-not-ron-paul.html

[FrankRep]

The question is:

Which Ron Paul policies does Bentivolio disagree with?

[Smart3]

This is probably no different than Amash's statements about not being a libertarian.

[Krzysztof Lesiak]

What the fuck??/

Kerry, get your shit together.

First you vote, for Boehner, now you say this??? US RP people got you elected in the first place!!!!!!! And Kerry was a big RP fan too!!!

What a TERRIBLE start in Congress, Kerry. Please, get your act together.

[RP Supporter]

You know who else is a Ronald Reagan Republican? Sean Hannity.

Kerry, I like you, but don't try to suck up to the establishment. Had you voted against Boehnor we'd have a new (equally sucky, but still) speaker now. Ron Paul's done a heel of a lot more for liberty then Reagan did.

[FrankRep]

Lets see how Bentivolio votes first before attacking him.

[AuH20]

It's better to not be stereotyped. Smart move Kerry.

[TheTexan]

It's better to not be stereotyped. Smart move Kerry.

You mean, it's better to be stereotyped as Ronald Reagan. Being stereotyped as Ron Paul, is obviously not a good idea.

We should probably distance ourselves as far from Ron Paul as we possibly can so that we can win these next rounds of elections.

[AuH20]

You mean, it's better to be stereotyped as Ronald Reagan. Being stereotyped as Ron Paul, is obviously not a good idea.

We should probably distance ourselves as far from Ron Paul as we possibly can so that we can win these next rounds of elections.

You can practice Ron Paul's principles without walking around as a disciple. The press wants a Ron Paul disciple they can slam relentlessly. Eff em all.

[TheTexan]

You can practice Ron Paul's principles without walking around as a disciple.

I agree, it is much better to walk around as a disciple of Ronald Reagan instead.

[TheTexan]

Honest question. What do you guys hope to achieve by denying who and what you stand for?

[FrankRep]

You mean, it's better to be stereotyped as Ronald Reagan. Being stereotyped as Ron Paul, is obviously not a good idea.

Ronald Reagan is viewed as a Conservative and Ron Paul is sometimes viewed as a libertarian.
The "libertarian" term has been dragged through the mud, demonized, and has been used to describe pot-smoking hippies with no morality.

[TheTexan]

Ronald Reagan is viewed as a Conservative

And you honestly think its a good idea to perpetuate that false myth?

Seriously... if your only goal is to get elected so that we can have a few people in office to represent us when the SHTF I will understand,

but if your goal is to make real change at the legislative level you are going to get nowhere fast by disavowing your beliefs whenever those beliefs are politically inconvenient

[AuH20]

Honest question. What do you guys hope to achieve by denying who and what you stand for?

Many of us here, probably agree with Ron Paul on 95% of the issues, but we aren't 100% letter to law Ron Paul clones. When the press brings up Ron Paul they never focus on all the things he was right on (monetary policy, war in Iraq, shocking growth of government, etc.) but rather all the misconstrued explosive statements.

If I'm a new candidate, I don't want to be bothered with any of those trap door questions specially reserved for a Ron Paul politician. There is nothing good to come out of that type of interrogation. Poor Rand is going to be assaulted on many fronts with god knows what in the primary. He should be able to handle it but...

[AuH20]

Ronald Reagan is viewed as a Conservative and Ron Paul is sometimes viewed as a libertarian.
The "libertarian" term has been dragged through the mud, demonized, and has been used to describe pot-smoking hippies with no morality.

Troofer, jew hater, racist, neoconfederate.............. I'd rather fight on new ground personally and stick it up their asses.

[FrankRep]

And you honestly think its a good idea to perpetuate that false myth?

Kerry Bentivolio is a Conservative. What false myth are you talking about?

[supermario21]

He has to worry about a primary...the article even said people are already lining up to run against him. You can vote like RP and say you're a Reaganite and average joes wouldn't even notice.

[TheTexan]

Kerry Bentivolio is a Conservative. What false myth are you talking about?

The false myth of Reagan being a Conservative.

[cajuncocoa]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130106/POLITICS03/301060313#ixzz2HEsrJJN6

via
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2013/01/bentivolio-im-reagan-man-not-ron-paul.htmland there you have it. there was always something about this guy that didn't ring true for me. I wish we would start promoting our IDEAS rather than throwing weight behind these mealy politicians who throw us under the bus as soon as they get a little nervous.

[FrankRep]

The false myth of Reagan being a Conservative.
I said Ronald Reagan is viewed as a Conservative.

[FrankRep]

and there you have it. there was always something about this guy that didn't ring true for me. I wish we would start promoting our IDEAS rather than throwing weight behind these mealy politicians who throw us under the bus.

Dude, Kerry Bentivolio hasn't even voted on anything yet.

[AuH20]

Dude, Kerry Bentivolio hasn't even voted on anything yet.

He could verbally disparage Ron Paul all he likes as long as he votes the right way. The proof is in the pudding like they say.

[cajuncocoa]

Dude, Kerry Bentivolio hasn't even voted on anything yet.so? with that one comment, he's done a lot to discredit the Ron Paul Revolution. and I'm not a dude.

[ican'tvote]

Very disappointed.
I'm pessimistically hoping he can at least give us a good voting record. He's not off to a good start voting for Boehner.

[TheTexan]

I said Ronald Reagan is viewed as a Conservative.

Yes, and my point was that is part of the problem. It's kind of hard to elect real conservatives when people's idea of "conservative" is Ronald Spending Reagan. Basically anyone who is "more conservative" than Reagan is deemed a libertarian-anarchist-hippy-pot-smoking KOOK.

We're seeing this problem time and time again, and the solution always seems to be the same. Disavow your *real* conservatism, and retreat back to "acceptable" level of conservatism.

With that said I agree with cajuncocoa. I don't think Bentivolio was a Ron Paul Republican to even begin with. I think you're just making excuses for him and calling his moves "smart."

[FrankRep]

We have one vote.

H.R. 41 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/113-2013/h7): Hurricane Sandy relief bill
- Kerry Bentivolio: No

[cajuncocoa]

He could verbally disparage Ron Paul all he likes as long as he votes the right way. The proof is in the pudding like they say.thing is, for some of you, he could vote to attack Iran and you would find a way to spin it. what has happened to some on this site is truly sickening.

[QuickZ06]

Pretty odd also ironic to say you are a Ronald Reagan Republican when one of your primary goals is to work on our debt.


Bentivolio declined to say how he would have voted on the fiscal cliff tax measure most House Republicans opposed, saying he hadn't read it.

Even though he has not read the whole bill I would hope he would oppose such a thing.

[FrankRep]

so? with that one comment, he's done a lot to discredit the Ron Paul Revolution. and I'm not a dude.
Cult of Personality.

One can be a Constitutionalist and not worship Ron Paul.


Kerry Bentivolio "I respect Ron Paul a great deal"
(Oh the horror!)

[AuH20]

thing is, for some of you, he could vote to attack Iran and you would find a way to spin it. what has happened to some on this site is truly sickening.

A vote to attack Iran is pretty self-explanatory. I don't think anyone could rationalize that type of error on his part.

[TheTexan]

Kerry Bentivolio "I respect Ron Paul a great deal"
(Oh the horror!)

Mitch McConnell and a large handful of other politicians repeated that same platitude on Dr. Paul's way out. Just a reminder.

[cajuncocoa]

Cult of Personality.

One can be a Constitutionalist and not worship Ron Paul.if there's a cult of personality evident on this site, it's by those who excuse ANYTHING said or actions taken by all of these relative newcomers to the Liberty Movement. Without the support of Ron Paul's forum Kerry Bentivolio would be lucky to win an election for homecoming king

since he's "not a Ron Paul person" I hope the PTB on this site will see fit to remove his subforum from the RON PAUL board :mad:

[Brian4Liberty]

What the fuck??/

Kerry, get your shit together.

First you vote, for Boehner, now you say this??? US RP people got you elected in the first place!!!!!!! And Kerry was a big RP fan too!!!

What a TERRIBLE start in Congress, Kerry. Please, get your act together.

As for me, I'm not going to get excited about some news report, probably out of context. He voted against the Sandy pork pie, that's a good start.

[green73]

Cult of Personality.

That is such bullshit. And to hear it repeated from someone on this site is sickening.

It's always been about what Ron Paul stands for.

[tsai3904]

It's always been about what Ron Paul stands for.

Right. Let's focus on the issues. The lengthy interview he gave on his views of foreign policy and the Federal Reserve tell me more about where he stands on the issues then a statement about claiming what kind of person he is.

To me, it's like trying to judge someone based on whether they call themselves a Constitutional Conservative or Libertarian...who cares. Focus on the issues.

[Michigan11]

He's positioning.

[Occam's Banana]

Seriously... if your only goal is to get elected so that we can have a few people in office to represent us when the SHTF I will understand,

but if your goal is to make real change at the legislative level you are going to get nowhere fast by disavowing your beliefs whenever those beliefs are politically inconvenient

I see little point in getting bent out of shape over these sorts of things. I guess that puts me in the SHTF category you mentioned. ;)

[Occam's Banana]

thing is, for some of you, he could vote to attack Iran and you would find a way to spin it. what has happened to some on this site is truly sickening.

Pre-crime? SMH.

[TheTexan]

I see little point in getting bent out of shape over these sorts of things. I guess that puts me in the SHTF category you mentioned. ;)

I've been trying to find reasons from the beginning to like this guy. I haven't found any. I don't see what people see in him, and things like this only add evidence to what I've thought all along: he's not one of us.

I'll be happy to admit my mistake later if his voting record proves he is one of us, but I don't see that happening

[dillo]

smart politics. The question is where does he really stand

[dbill27]

We'll see what happens with him but it's not very exciting that he wants to distance himself with Ron Paul but as no problem lumping himself in with Reagan.

I feel like I should add one thing though: I didn't see a whole lot of support here when guys like kurt Bills or Kerry B or even massie were running, not that it wasn't here, but it just pales in comparison to Ron. It seems like right off the bat half of the people here and probably in the liberty movement in general just can't support anyone who isn't as pure as Ron Paul. There's so many people who just seem like they have to be antagonists. I really thought that we were a strong group but I just didn't ever see people excited about throwing money bombs for these guys or doing anything like that. When Ron was even considering his presidential run, we would pull out all the stops to win a damn straw poll that had no meaning but when it comes to getting actual real voices in congress it seems support trickles. I'm not sure we inspire a whole lot of confidence to someone like kerry b that he can actually be re-elected with our help if he embraces liberty.

[GunnyFreedom]

We'll see what happens with him but it's not very exciting that he wants to distance himself with Ron Paul but as no problem lumping himself in with Reagan.

I feel like I should add one thing though: I didn't see a whole lot of support here when guys like kurt Bills or Kerry B or even massie were running, not that it wasn't here, but it just pales in comparison to Ron. It seems like right off the bat half of the people here and probably in the liberty movement in general just can't support anyone who isn't as pure as Ron Paul. There's so many people who just seem like they have to be antagonists. I really thought that we were a strong group but I just didn't ever see people excited about throwing money bombs for these guys or doing anything like that. When Ron was even considering his presidential run, we would pull out all the stops to win a damn straw poll that had no meaning but when it comes to getting actual real voices in congress it seems support trickles. I'm not sure we inspire a whole lot of confidence to someone like kerry b that he can actually be re-elected with our help if he embraces liberty.

Yes, but remember we also ran at the same time as Ron ran for President. His campaign sucked a lot of oxygen out of the room in a tight economy.

[TheTexan]

Looking up Bentivolio just now I've found more than a few reasons to like the guy, that were not available to find back when he was running. I may have been mistaken about him, so I'll give him a pass on this and withhold judgement until there's a voting record.

It's still sketchy though.

[TheTexan]

I feel like I should add one thing though: I didn't see a whole lot of support here when guys like kurt Bills or Kerry B or even massie were running, not that it wasn't here, but it just pales in comparison to Ron. It seems like right off the bat half of the people here and probably in the liberty movement in general just can't support anyone who isn't as pure as Ron Paul. There's so many people who just seem like they have to be antagonists. I really thought that we were a strong group but I just didn't ever see people excited about throwing money bombs for these guys or doing anything like that. When Ron was even considering his presidential run, we would pull out all the stops to win a damn straw poll that had no meaning but when it comes to getting actual real voices in congress it seems support trickles. I'm not sure we inspire a whole lot of confidence to someone like kerry b that he can actually be re-elected with our help if he embraces liberty.

We're a very distrusting bunch. It is what it is. Takes a lot of work to earn my trust, anyway.

On the other hand though, if all our candidates were like Karen Kwiatkowski and had the balls to speak the unabated truth, we would know instantly they were on our side.

But then they'd probably lose the election for being too honest.

The name of the game it seems is to be dishonest to get elected. I don't fault anyone for that - it is what it is. But at the same time, it's hard to criticize someone for not getting 100% behind politicians who are admittedly dishonest, and have no proven track record.

For future "liberty" candidates:

If you want my support? Be honest so that I know I can trust you.

If you want mainstream republican support? Lie through your teeth so you can play their game.

If you want both, it'll take a very rare kind of candidate

[Drex]

Guys he needs to say this, the republican establishment already wants him to get primaried,, its been what less than a month?

[TheTexan]

Guys he needs to say this, the republican establishment already wants him to get primaried,, its been what less than a month?

Shrug. What are the options?

1) Fly the liberty flag high and get primaried
or
2) Cave to the establishment (such as voting for boehner) and maybe not get primaried

Both approaches have their merits... but I'd go with #1 personally.

[Humanae Libertas]

"I'm really a Ronald Reagan Republican"

So he's a socialist gun grabber? Because that's what Raygan really was...

[tsai3904]

Looking up Bentivolio just now I've found more than a few reasons to like the guy, that were not available to find back when he was running. I may have been mistaken about him, so I'll give him a pass on this and withhold judgement until there's a voting record.

It's still sketchy though.

What did you read about him to change your mind?

Have you read the interview below? He answers a lot of policy positions. I'm not sure how anyone who reads this can say they have questions about him.

http://libertycandidates.com/2012/01/kerry-bentivolio/

[LibertyEagle]

Shrug. What are the options?

1) Fly the liberty flag high and get primaried
or
2) Cave to the establishment (such as voting for boehner) and maybe not get primaried

Both approaches have their merits... but I'd go with #1 personally.

How about we give him a chance. He just got there.

[Anti-Neocon]

Let's see his voting record and then use that to make judgments. I could care less what people he affiliates himself with as long as he makes the right votes. I'd probably do the same thing if I was in danger of being primaried.

[Michigan11]

I'm pretty sure he used this line early on in the primary. Lets watch for his 3rd vote

[TheTexan]

What did you read about him to change your mind?

Have you read the interview below? He answers a lot of policy positions. I'm not sure how anyone who reads this can say they have questions about him.

http://libertycandidates.com/2012/01/kerry-bentivolio/

No, I haven't seen that before. Not sure how I missed that, thank you. Looks like I was wrong.

[Cowlesy]

I'll re-visit what I think of him after I get a full year of votes and statements.

[kathy88]

We're a very distrusting bunch. It is what it is. Takes a lot of work to earn my trust, anyway.

On the other hand though, if all our candidates were like Karen Kwiatkowski and had the balls to speak the unabated truth, we would know instantly they were on our side.

But then they'd probably lose the election for being too honest.

The name of the game it seems is to be dishonest to get elected. I don't fault anyone for that - it is what it is. But at the same time, it's hard to criticize someone for not getting 100% behind politicians who are admittedly dishonest, and have no proven track record.

For future "liberty" candidates:

If you want my support? Be honest so that I know I can trust you.

If you want mainstream republican support? Lie through your teeth so you can play their game.

If you want both, it'll take a very rare kind of candidateIIRC even Karen backed off from being labeled as a Ron Paul Republican during her primary. It was only AFTER she lost that she went full bore. I remember being disappointed because she said something very similar to what Kerry said.

[cajuncocoa]

That is such bullshit. And to hear it repeated from someone on this site is sickening.

It's always been about what Ron Paul stands for.You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to green73 again.

[cajuncocoa]

Question for the Bentivolio supporters: if he doesn't have a voting record yet ("let's wait and see how he votes!") and he's verbally distancing himself from Ron Paul, why exactly are you supporting the guy? Based on what??

[CaptLouAlbano]

Question for the Bentivolio supporters: if he doesn't have a voting record yet ("let's wait and see how he votes!") and he's verbally distancing himself from Ron Paul, why exactly are you supporting the guy? Based on what??

It is not support as much as it is defending him and for that matter others throughout this site from the relentless attacks by those who are just waiting for everyone to say something or do something so they can take away their liberty credentials. Pretty much every newly elected liberty candidate from 2012 has been put through the ringer by the "see I told you he wasn't on our side" crowd.

Kerry has two years and a lot of votes ahead of him. When election time comes up again and he is running for reelection people can look back on his votes and determine whether or not he is worthy of supporting financially and with volunteer effort.

In regards to Kerry's statement, it is a wise one. The Ron Paul brand is tarnished for a lot of people. Even though, I supported Ron this election, I did not go before my county committee and declare myself a Ron Paul Republican, in fact I labeled myself a Goldwater Conservative which rings positive with many of the folks whom I stood before.

[cajuncocoa]

It is not support as much as it is defending him and for that matter others throughout this site from the relentless attacks by those who are just waiting for everyone to say something or do something so they can take away their liberty credentials. Pretty much every newly elected liberty candidate from 2012 has been put through the ringer by the "see I told you he wasn't on our side" crowd.

Kerry has two years and a lot of votes ahead of him. When election time comes up again and he is running for reelection people can look back on his votes and determine whether or not he is worthy of supporting financially and with volunteer effort.

In regards to Kerry's statement, it is a wise one. The Ron Paul brand is tarnished for a lot of people. Even though, I supported Ron this election, I did not go before my county committee and declare myself a Ron Paul Republican, in fact I labeled myself a Goldwater Conservative which rings positive with many of the folks whom I stood before.

Yep, Ron Paul is the Gold Standard for me, so sue me if you have a problem with it. This IS, after all, the Ron Paul Forums...and that's why I'm here: to advance and uphold the principles that Dr. Paul stood for.

If the majority of people on this site don't care about that any longer, than what has been gained by the Ron Paul r3volution? If we're expected to support anyone just because they have an "R" behind their name, how is this site different then from FreeRepublic.com? They don't care so much about Ron Paul either, from what I hear.

[mz10]

Honest question. What do you guys hope to achieve by denying who and what you stand for?

Who and what we stand for? Not just what? So we stand for Ron Paul as a named person, not just what he believes in? So it's impossible to fight for limited gov't, sound money, and non-interventionism unless you have a Ron Paul t-shirt everywhere you go? You know what, who gives a f*ck about Ron Paul as a person. He was a great messenger, he got a lot of people into libertarianism, that's awesome. Guess what he's retired now. My purity test is whether people support liberty, not whether they publicly support Ron Paul.


And for the record none of that was directed at Ron Paul, who is my political hero. Just these clowns.

[mz10]

Yep, Ron Paul is the Gold Standard for me, so sue me if you have a problem with it. This IS, after all, the Ron Paul Forums...and that's why I'm here: to advance and uphold the principles that Dr. Paul stood for.

If the majority of people on this site don't care about that any longer, than what has been gained by the Ron Paul r3volution? If we're expected to support anyone just because they have an "R" behind their name, how is this site different then from FreeRepublic.com? They don't care so much about Ron Paul either, from what I hear.

If FreeRepublic.com supports liberty principles, then hell yeah I'm on board.

Ron Paul himself would agree with everything I'm saying.

[Cleaner44]

Ronald Reagan was pretty much a Ron Paul person... except for the part about running up massive debt and ignoring the rule of law and bringing forth more nanny state social conservative agenda items and surrounding himself with neocons... other than things like that, Ronald Reagan was pretty much a Ron Paul person.

P.S.
Personally I think that Bush had him shot and that changed things for Reagan.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Yep, Ron Paul is the Gold Standard for me, so sue me if you have a problem with it. This IS, after all, the Ron Paul Forums...and that's why I'm here: to advance and uphold the principles that Dr. Paul stood for.

If the majority of people on this site don't care about that any longer, than what has been gained by the Ron Paul r3volution? If we're expected to support anyone just because they have an "R" behind their name, how is this site different then from FreeRepublic.com? They don't care so much about Ron Paul either, from what I hear.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you support someone just because they have an "R" behind their name. When the primary season comes around, you can feel free to donate and volunteer to whichever candidate you wish. Some here might make that determination based on their voting record, some might only want to support candidates that have Ron Paul's portrait tattooed on their ass. Everyone has their own determination of whom they will support with their time and money. If you choose to only support people who have the Ron Paul tattoo on their ass, then that is your choice.

[sailingaway]

Lets see how Bentivolio votes first before attacking him.

Actions involve more than just 'votes'. For those who have a major motive to grow a movement and make it visible and contagious, this is a jarring note.

not an auspicious start, but I do remember how media would twist what Ron said, and we don't know the context. It might have been on a particular issue.

I wouldn't throw K out for just this one statement, nor for his first day votes. He's finding his feet. But this is pretty odd, for a Ron Paul delegate elected on Ron Paul's strength.

Loyalty is a character issue.

[itshappening]

Question for the Bentivolio supporters: if he doesn't have a voting record yet ("let's wait and see how he votes!") and he's verbally distancing himself from Ron Paul, why exactly are you supporting the guy? Based on what??

Kerry is a good man and very approachable. Many on here have spoken to him personally. Lets just see how he works out.

[cajuncocoa]

Ronald Reagan was pretty much a Ron Paul person... except for the part about running up massive debt and ignoring the rule of law and bringing forth more nanny state social conservative agenda items and surrounding himself with neocons... other than things like that, Ronald Reagan was pretty much a Ron Paul person.

P.S.
Personally I think that Bush had him shot and that changed things for Reagan.One thing is certain: you never hear a Republican shy away from labeling him/herself a "Reagan conservative".

Look, I don't care about the labels so much....it means nothing for someone to call himself a "Ron Paul person" and then go out and govern like George W. Bush. But if someone really does believe in the things that Dr. Paul stood for and intends to fight for those principles, why do they feel it's necessary to distance himself from the Paul name? It's disappointing, and even more disappointing that the people on this site (mostly) are OK with that.

As for mz10's comment:


My purity test is whether people support liberty

Agreed. But do we all agree on what "supporting liberty" means? Someone (CaptLou, I believe) once replied to me that we probably have as many definitions of "liberty" as we have members on this site...that sounds like a recipe for supporting anything that any one of our "approved" candidates decides to do. And they do...too many people on this site make excuses for any vote due to political expediency. That may be a good way to get elected, but what does that win for the Liberty Movement?

[cajuncocoa]

Kerry is a good man and very approachable. Many on here have spoken to him personally. Lets just see how he works out.Again, I ask: why are we devoting an entire subforum to someone who is (1) distancing himself from Ron Paul and (2) we don't know how he will work out yet?

Something about that line (wait to see how he works out) reminds me of Pelosi's comment on Obamacare...the one where she said we need to pass the bill to find out what's in it. :rolleyes:

[CaptLouAlbano]

Agreed. But do we all agree on what "supporting liberty" means? Someone (CaptLou, I believe) once replied to me that we probably have as many definitions of "liberty" as we have members on this site...that sounds like a recipe for supporting anything that any one of our "approved" candidates decides to do. And they do...too many people on this site make excuses for any vote due to political expediency. That may be a good way to get elected, but what does that win for the Liberty Movement?

It was me, which is why I reject this notion that RPF is a "we" - it's not, in fact it is not even an organization by any stretch of the imagination. This is an internet forum, and if the site owner doesn't pay his hosting bill, it will be gone in a flash. This place isn't the Liberty Movement, it is a place to talk about it. The Liberty Movement happens in the real world, where people are spending their time and money working to get candidates elected to office who represent those traditional conservative/libertarian views. Each of us can support whom we choose in the manner in which we choose, what occurs here is discussion, debate and a lot of armchair quarterbacking.

[itshappening]

Again, I ask: why are we devoting an entire subforum to someone who is (1) distancing himself from Ron Paul and (2) we don't know how he will work out yet?

Something about that line (wait to see how he works out) reminds me of Pelosi's comment on Obamacare...the one where she said we need to pass the bill to find out what's in it. :rolleyes:

I don't make sub-forums but I suspect it has to do with Kerry courting us. I take his comments with a pinch of salt. Kerry is not in an ultra-safe district where everybody knows him and runs without opposition like Ron did all those years. So don't expect him to be outspoken and calling for abolishing the Federal government.

[cajuncocoa]

It was me, which is why I reject this notion that RPF is a "we" - it's not, in fact it is not even an organization by any stretch of the imagination. This is an internet forum, and if the site owner doesn't pay his hosting bill, it will be gone in a flash. This place isn't the Liberty Movement, it is a place to talk about it. The Liberty Movement happens in the real world, where people are spending their time and money working to get candidates elected to office who represent those traditional conservative/libertarian views. Each of us can support whom we choose in the manner in which we choose, what occurs here is discussion, debate and a lot of armchair quarterbacking.

Actually, this place existed for us to come together to help Ron Paul's 2008 campaign, and then later his 2012 campaign. It would be reasonable to suggest that if someone didn't support Ron Paul, they should not be here. Now that Ron Paul has left the political stage, we're being encouraged to support candidates who don't mind throwing Dr. Paul under the bus one way or another. That seems wrong to me, but I guess saying that will get me accused of being part of a "cult of personality". :rolleyes:

[mz10]

Agreed. But do we all agree on what "supporting liberty" means? Someone (CaptLou, I believe) once replied to me that we probably have as many definitions of "liberty" as we have members on this site...that sounds like a recipe for supporting anything that any one of our "approved" candidates decides to do. And they do...too many people on this site make excuses for any vote due to political expediency. That may be a good way to get elected, but what does that win for the Liberty Movement?

I don't think there's much discrepancy between the ideological beliefs of people on this site. I know that's hard to believe with all the fighting we do, but we really do have the same principles.

I think a good litmus for Kerry will be the defense funding bill that Rand said would come up in a few months. If he votes for that, screw him. If not, I'd say he's one of us.

[Cleaner44]

One thing is certain: you never hear a Republican shy away from labeling him/herself a "Reagan conservative".

Look, I don't care about the labels so much....it means nothing for someone to call himself a "Ron Paul person" and then go out and govern like George W. Bush. But if someone really does believe in the things that Dr. Paul stood for and intends to fight for those principles, why do they feel it's necessary to distance himself from the Paul name? It's disappointing, and even more disappointing that the people on this site (mostly) are OK with that.

As for mz10's comment:



Agreed. But do we all agree on what "supporting liberty" means? Someone (CaptLou, I believe) once replied to me that we probably have as many definitions of "liberty" as we have members on this site...that sounds like a recipe for supporting anything that any one of our "approved" candidates decides to do. And they do...too many people on this site make excuses for any vote due to political expediency. That may be a good way to get elected, but what does that win for the Liberty Movement?

It won't take long for us to see how Bentivolio votes and where he really stands. Time will tells us.

[Brett85]

I think a good litmus for Kerry will be the defense funding bill that Rand said would come up in a few months. If he votes for that, screw him. If not, I'd say he's one of us.

Lol, so "screw him" if he votes for some amount of defense spending? I guess the guy won't get your support unless he just has a completely anarchist voting record.

[itshappening]

He will not have an anarchist voting record that's for sure.

Some people want no compromise and total orthodoxy but that's not to happen when Kerry won with 51% of the vote.

The only people in congress who can hold unflinching views are the 80 or so (mostly liberals) who run without any opposition.

Ron was one of those people by the way.

[mz10]

Lol, so "screw him" if he votes for some amount of defense spending? I guess the guy won't get your support unless he just has a completely anarchist voting record.

I'm no anarchist, I'm the guy that defends Rand on every thread. But if the bill's half as bad as it is likely to be, I guarantee you Amash, Massie, Jones, Duncan, etc. will all vote against it. My hope is that Kerry will too.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Actually, this place existed for us to come together to help Ron Paul's 2008 campaign, and then later his 2012 campaign. It would be reasonable to suggest that if someone didn't support Ron Paul, they should not be here. Now that Ron Paul has left the political stage, we're being encouraged to support candidates who don't mind throwing Dr. Paul under the bus one way or another. That seems wrong to me, but I guess saying that will get me accused of being part of a "cult of personality". :rolleyes:

What support are you talking about? Kerry's primary won't occur for about 18 months or so. There's nothing to support at this time. When primary season rolls around you can decide which candidates you want to donate your time and money to, and use whatever criteria you wish to use.

[sailingaway]

What support are you talking about? Kerry's primary won't occur for about 18 months or so. There's nothing to support at this time. When primary season rolls around you can decide which candidates you want to donate your time and money to, and use whatever criteria you wish to use.

right now people are discussing candidates and supporting them, or not, in that discussion. it is what happens on political boards. Opinions can change numerous times between elections.

[brandon]

I'm not really a Bentivolio person

[jbauer]

And yet there's talk of doing a moneybomb for local GOP's. Hate to say it but I'm about done. Time to worry about my own $hit then someone elses

[KingNothing]

Honest question. What do you guys hope to achieve by denying who and what you stand for?


As long as he votes for less spending, less taxes, less monetary manipulation, less government secrecy and less militarism, he can say he follows Satan and thinks Ron Paul is a bastard covered bastard with bastard filling.

I love Ron and I'm positive that he's the best statesman in American history -- which is significant because a couple hundred years ago we had a bunch of great ones. But one flippant congressman means nothing compared to that congressman's voting record. If Kerry votes appropriately, and I believe he will given the establishment's hatred of him, it does not matter what he says.

[KingNothing]

I'm not really a Bentivolio person

Meh. I donated to his campaign. This does not give me a reason to regret my decision.

[talkingpointes]

I wonder if anyone on here realizes this information will be used against us. If we have any defectors especially. The stealth strategy is pure idiocy. The country is turning our way and people want distance from Paul. He has won more elections than all other liberty candidates combined thus far.

[KingNothing]

I wonder if anyone on here realizes this information will be used against us. If we have any defectors especially. The stealth strategy is pure idiocy. The country is turning our way and people want distance from Paul. He has won more elections than all other liberty candidates combined thus far.

I don't think it matters in any way shape or form. What does matter is that people like our ideas and that our politicians win office to enforce them.

[cajuncocoa]

I wonder if anyone on here realizes this information will be used against us. If we have any defectors especially. The stealth strategy is pure idiocy. The country is turning our way and people want distance from Paul. He has won more elections than all other liberty candidates combined thus far.pffft to the "stealth strategy"'. All that does is confuse everyone and cause a lot of distrust. If every candidate sounds like all the rest, how does one know who really is a "liberty candidate"? Especially when we've had people on this site who overlook votes for NDAA, the PATRIOT act, and so on. If we compromise on too much, we end up with nothing...and that's exactly how I see this turning out.

[KingNothing]

Especially when we've had people on this site who overlook votes for NDAA, the PATRIOT act, and so on.

We do?

[CaptLouAlbano]

pffft to the "stealth strategy"'. All that does is confuse everyone and cause a lot of distrust. If every candidate sounds like all the rest, how does one know who really is a "liberty candidate"? Especially when we've had people on this site who overlook votes for NDAA, the PATRIOT act, and so on. If we compromise on too much, we end up with nothing...and that's exactly how I see this turning out.

And on the same note, if all ones expect is perfection, or close to it, then they will end up with nothing as well.

[July]

Well I don't personally care all that much, if he calls himself a "Ron Paul Republican" or "Goldwater Republican" or "Reagan Republican", etc. There are some here and aligned with the liberty movement who consider themselves "Pat Buchanan Republicans." I especially expect older Republicans to identify more with Reagan or Goldwater (even if they do also like Ron), and perhaps younger Republicans more with Paul... If Kerry can appeal to an older generation that way, fine. I care more about how he votes and the ideals he expresses, and that remains to be seen so far, so we'll see. I am more or less neutral on him right now until his record starts to develop a little bit. Right now he's got one vote I like and one I don't.

[cajuncocoa]

That "stealth strategy" cuts both ways.


People on this site would be naïve to think that political operatives would not join here with intent to undermine the liberty movement that has been gaining momentum for almost 6 years (and scaring the living daylights out of the establishment). They're doing a heckuva job, too. How hard would it be for someone who works for a candidate to join this site and start promoting a candidate as one of us, and milk us out of our hard-earned money (not to mention time spent on phones and posting favorable comments on articles, etc.)? Then, when said candidate starts to become associated with us -- because we are a group who comes out strong for someone when we support them -- they want to distance themselves from us, as if Ron Paul has a disease. Fuck that, man.

Wake up, RPF. Next time someone asks you to contribute to a moneybomb, tell them you want to "wait and see how he votes for a couple of years" first.

[green73]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to cajuncocoa again.

[AuH20]

That "stealth strategy" cuts both ways.


People on this site would be naïve to think that political operatives would not join here with intent to undermine the liberty movement that has been gaining momentum for almost 6 years (and scaring the living daylights out of the establishment). They're doing a heckuva job, too. How hard would it be for someone who works for a candidate to join this site and start promoting a candidate as one of us, and milk us out of our hard-earned money (not to mention time spent on phones and posting favorable comments on articles, etc.)? Then, when said candidate starts to become associated with us -- because we are a group who comes out strong for someone when we support them -- they want to distance themselves from us, as if Ron Paul has a disease. Fuck that, man.

Wake up, RPF. Next time someone asks you to contribute to a moneybomb, tell them you want to "wait and see how he votes for a couple of years" first.

I think you're living in a dream world. There is a multitude of different opinions on this site and it's healthy.

[cajuncocoa]

I think you're living in a dream world. There is a multitude of different opinions on this site and it's healthy....says the RPF member who loves him some Mark Levin. :rolleyes:

[AuH20]

...says the RPF member who loves him some Mark Levin. :rolleyes:

I don't love Mark Levin. But he's not satan. We have lunatics on this forum who are so insulated and out-of-touch, that they lash out at anyone and everyone who dares disagree with them. Whomever disagrees always has some nefarious reason to do so. That's not always the case. I've got multiple neg reps from other forum members who have accused me of being a government operative, when in actuality I'm under daily surveillance by at least 2 federal organizations.

[FSP-Rebel]

Wake up, RPF. Next time someone asks you to contribute to a moneybomb, tell them you want to "wait and see how he votes for a couple of years" first.
I figured you'd be belly up against the bar in this thread spreading division as if you haven't had enough of it in a while. But no, if you're involved in politics you gather as much evidence in order to support someone that you perceive to be of your views and help them, then if they go off the farm you cut them off. That's the nature of politics, dealing with other humans is not a perfect science since you can't control others' actions. Yet, as of now, I'd say all the so-called politicians that were supported by the liberty wing are still solidly intact. I'd hang Kerry's hide out to dry if I truly believed he went rogue on us.

[erowe1]

Ron Paul had millions of supporters. Out of those millions, there were thousands who fit the mold of what people think of as a Ron Paul person. Maybe Bentivolio is just saying he's not "one of those." And he probably isn't. Big deal.

If I saw a video of him at a Ron Paul sign wave, wearing a three-cornered hat, shouting "I want my country back!", with a joint in his lips, and holding a sign that says, "Monsanto and the Joos are putting stuff in your water to make you stoopid," it would make me like him less, not more.

[talkingpointes]

pffft to the "stealth strategy"'. All that does is confuse everyone and cause a lot of distrust. If every candidate sounds like all the rest, how does one know who really is a "liberty candidate"? Especially when we've had people on this site who overlook votes for NDAA, the PATRIOT act, and so on. If we compromise on too much, we end up with nothing...and that's exactly how I see this turning out.

I think in the coming future we will more embrace our true nature as we are not attached (politically) at least now to the collapse. Why are people not seeing this. The collapse is an anchor attached to the two parties right now.

[July]

That "stealth strategy" cuts both ways.


People on this site would be naïve to think that political operatives would not join here with intent to undermine the liberty movement that has been gaining momentum for almost 6 years (and scaring the living daylights out of the establishment). They're doing a heckuva job, too. How hard would it be for someone who works for a candidate to join this site and start promoting a candidate as one of us, and milk us out of our hard-earned money (not to mention time spent on phones and posting favorable comments on articles, etc.)? Then, when said candidate starts to become associated with us -- because we are a group who comes out strong for someone when we support them -- they want to distance themselves from us, as if Ron Paul has a disease. Fuck that, man.

Wake up, RPF. Next time someone asks you to contribute to a moneybomb, tell them you want to "wait and see how he votes for a couple of years" first.

That's true, but it's a gamble I guess, but deciding not to support anyone at all means missing out on the few good candidates as well. I guess that goes to show the answer isn't simply electing people we want, but even those we help elect still need to be followed up on, same as any other politican. It's the nature of the political system itself.

I like a "coalition" strategy over a "stealth" one...meaning I could support someone who I know is openly not a libertarian, if they align on a bulk of issues I think are important...but that is on a case by case basis.

[KingRobbStark]

This guy wants to obviously distance himself from the group who got him elected. Some say it's good politics, and maybe they are right. But what I consider stupid is antagonizing the base that got you elected. So in my opinion, he played bad politics. He good have played it differently, but he didn't. This is why I respect Congressmen TM ( a member of this forum). He doesn't identify as a 'Ron Paul Republican', but he also knows who got him elect.

[Michigan11]

It's true momentum is going our way ideological but is it not easier to ride under the radar a bit til more catch up instead of loudly proclaiming we are right?

[Michigan11]

Bring in the ole Reagan base from the boomers. The more the better

[Michigan11]

All those years these Rinos saying their conservative to use as a cover for their liberal records. I think I like our guys using the establishment as cover to deliver a conservative record.

[tsai3904]

Again, I ask: why are we devoting an entire subforum to someone who is (1) distancing himself from Ron Paul and (2) we don't know how he will work out yet?

Have you read this interview he gave?

http://libertycandidates.com/2012/01/kerry-bentivolio/

Where in that interview does he stray from the issues of Ron Paul? Where in that interview makes you think we need to wait for him to vote on a certain issue to find out where he stands? If he doesn't follow through on his statements, then that's a huge issue but if I'm given two choices: (1) a lengthy interview on policy or (2) a statement about what kind of person he is based on labels, I'll go with the policy interview every time to find out what kind of person he is.

[cajuncocoa]

I figured you'd be belly up against the bar in this thread spreading division as if you haven't had enough of it in a while. But no, if you're involved in politics you gather as much evidence in order to support someone that you perceive to be of your views and help them, then if they go off the farm you cut them off. That's the nature of politics, dealing with other humans is not a perfect science since you can't control others' actions. Yet, as of now, I'd say all the so-called politicians that were supported by the liberty wing are still solidly intact. I'd hang Kerry's hide out to dry if I truly believed he went rogue on us.This is why I keep saying we should use this board to promote our IDEAS (and ways to do so) rather than attaching the Ron Paul banner to political figures who use us and then throw us under the bus as soon as the establishment winks at them.

Look, if I'm a campaign manager just trying to get someone elected, I would do exactly what Bentivolio's people are telling him to do. The only good marketing strategy is the one that gets you the most consumers (or voters, in this case). That would be mainstream Republicans in Bentivolio's case, as Ron Paul/Liberty Republicans are still in the minority in the party. If you have to piss one of them off, you piss off the smaller between the two groups. Duh.

That's all fine and good for the campaign strategists, but I don't give a shit about them. But when they ask me to contribute to a moneybomb for their candidate (and they will), I'm going to remember that comment their candidate made.

[dinosaur]

Well I don't personally care all that much, if he calls himself a "Ron Paul Republican" or "Goldwater Republican" or "Reagan Republican", etc. There are some here and aligned with the liberty movement who consider themselves "Pat Buchanan Republicans." I especially expect older Republicans to identify more with Reagan or Goldwater (even if they do also like Ron), and perhaps younger Republicans more with Paul... If Kerry can appeal to an older generation that way, fine. I care more about how he votes and the ideals he expresses, and that remains to be seen so far, so we'll see. I am more or less neutral on him right now until his record starts to develop a little bit. Right now he's got one vote I like and one I don't.

The voice of reason. Kerry can give himself any label that he feels is most accurate, so long as his actions in office turn out to be good. Many people who identify most with Reagan are still fine patriots.

[cajuncocoa]

This is why I keep saying we should use this board to promote our IDEAS (and ways to do so) rather than attaching the Ron Paul banner to political figures who use us and then throw us under the bus as soon as the establishment winks at them.

Expanding on the above comment: this would give us the freedom to pat the Bentivolio's of Congress on the head when they vote the way we like, and also the freedom to criticize the hell out of them when they make a stupid comment (or when they vote with the establishment, rather than take the liberty position) As it is now, we have people freaking out if someone disagrees with something they did in their subforum on RON PAUL's board, even if the criticism comes from them acting like Ron Paul has the plague.

Let these candidates come to us and fear pissing US off if they want out support. Stop giving it to them when they bite the hands that have been feeding them.

[TheTexan]

Have you read this interview he gave?

http://libertycandidates.com/2012/01/kerry-bentivolio/

Where in that interview does he stray from the issues of Ron Paul? Where in that interview makes you think we need to wait for him to vote on a certain issue to find out where he stands? If he doesn't follow through on his statements, then that's a huge issue but if I'm given two choices: (1) a lengthy interview on policy or (2) a statement about what kind of person he is based on labels, I'll go with the policy interview every time to find out what kind of person he is.

Yes, that interview addressed most/all of my concerns. He should be a very good congressman for us.

I still don't like the Reaganizing/Boehner-voting, but that's just a disagreement of tactics. He's on our side.

[erowe1]

This is why I keep saying we should use this board to promote our IDEAS (and ways to do so) rather than attaching the Ron Paul banner to political figures who use us and then throw us under the bus as soon as the establishment winks at them.

I disagree. We want different results in 2016 than we had in 2008 and 2012. We have a limited amount of time to make sure all the embarrassing people, who would rather lose and bring us all down with them than win, get the message that they need to shape up or ship out. This board will have a role in that.

[cajuncocoa]

Yes, that interview addressed most/all of my concerns. He should be a very good congressman for us.

I still don't like the Reaganizing/Boehner-voting, but that's just a disagreement of tactics. He's on our side.As we keep reading here, these politicians can say whatever they want in an interview and it may mean something, but it might not. I'll take the advice that was given much earlier in this thread, that being "wait and see how he votes" over the course of a few years. Maybe that Boehner vote didn't mean anything; maybe his "Ron Paul" comment didn't mean anything....time will tell.

[cajuncocoa]

I disagree. We want different results in 2016 than we had in 2008 and 2012. We have a limited amount of time to make sure all the embarrassing people, who would rather lose and bring us all down with them than win, get the message that they need to shape up or ship out. This board will have a role in that.If, by "embarrassing people" you mean those who want to stay true to Ron Paul's principles (you know, the guy whose name is on the banner on this website) and not waiver from them, count me in. This is going to get interesting going forward. We are definitely going to separate the true liberty-minded people from the pretenders.

[TheTexan]

As we keep reading here, these politicians can say whatever they want in an interview and it may mean something, but it might not. I'll take the advice that was given much earlier in this thread, that being "wait and see how he votes" over the course of a few years. Maybe that Boehner vote didn't mean anything; maybe his "Ron Paul" comment didn't mean anything....time will tell.

Politicians have been known to go to great lengths to pander and lie in interviews to gather support, but few go so far as to call the Fed a counterfeiter :)

[Michigan11]

Cajun I think your energy vibe is much better used if you do a 180. Your vibe points due south

[erowe1]

If, by "embarrassing people" you mean those who want to stay true to Ron Paul's principles (you know, the guy whose name is on the banner on this website) and not waiver from them, count me in. This is going to get interesting going forward. We are definitely going to separate the true liberty-minded people from the pretenders.

I'm not sure who's counted in that. And it doesn't matter to me, as long as they shape up or ship out.

[cajuncocoa]

Politicians have been known to go to great lengths to pander and lie in interviews to gather support, but few go so far as to call the Fed a counterfeiter :)I look forward to seeing him do something about that.

[cajuncocoa]

Cajun I think your energy vibe is much better used if you do a 180. Your vibe points due southShining light on truth tends to make people uncomfortable.

[FSP-Rebel]

That's all fine and good for the campaign strategists, but I don't give a shit about them. But when they ask me to contribute to a moneybomb for their candidate (and they will), I'm going to remember that comment their candidate made.
I get your point but let me just point out again how weird of a situation Kerry is in. You remember the whole fiasco that led to the primary and the subsequent special election but make no mistake that since this is a solid GOP district the insiders want this one back with a vengeance. And, they have some well financed people on their short list to take on Kerry. Kerry doesn't have the liberty to run his mouth like Ron did w/o fear of reprisal. What Kerry needs to do is keep his constituents happy, vote appropriately for genuine conservative positions to keep his base happy and not give the insiders anything needless to gain traction with.

Most voters don't know their guy's voting record and many more do very little homework when voting for most offices, they only see what is on mailers and such. The Det FP had Kerry's positions lined up along side his opponent and for foreign policy he was listed as closing down most foreign bases and against the war so that's no secret. And, likely the goons will go after Kerry if he votes against the Military appropriations bill in a big way so he's got it rough no matter what. If he's smart he'll stay true to our principles and go toe-toe with whoever the insiders bring out and we just have to crush them once and for all. When the next wave of conventions come around in this next month or so I'll have a better understanding of the new makeup of that district's delegate situation to see what kind of headway we've made up there.

[Michigan11]

Shining light on truth tends to make people uncomfortable.

Or maybe try communicating different. Sometimes it takes a while to understand a good point you may have with your use of negativity in your posts. That is all.

[AuH20]

I don't understand why some RP supporters are so hypersensitive. If he puts forth a series of horrible votes, then bring out the claws. Do we really have that many whiny women in our movement? Women typically complain about not receiving superficial acts of affection. I'm sorry if I come off as a misogynist but... LOL

[cajuncocoa]

Or maybe try communicating different. Sometimes it takes a while to understand a good point you may have with your use of negativity in your posts. That is all.I don't sugar-coat my opinions. It's too late for that. That is all.

[cajuncocoa]

I don't understand why some RP supporters are so hypersensitive. If he puts forth a series of horrible votes, then bring out the claws. Do we have really that many whiny women in our movement? Women typically complain about not receiving superficial acts of affection. I'm sorry if I come off a misogynist but... LOLIf you weren't such a neocon, I would probably take offense at your "whiny women" comment. As it is, I've come to learn that when someone has to resort to insults, it usually means they lost the argument.

[AuH20]

If you weren't such a neocon, I would probably take offense at your "whiny women" comment. As it is, I've come to learn that when someone has to resort to insults, it usually means they lost the argument.

Now I'm a neocon??? If I'm a neocon, you don't have a future. I'll leave it at that.

[July]

Expanding on the above comment: this would give us the freedom to pat the Bentivolio's of Congress on the head when they vote the way we like, and also the freedom to criticize the hell out of them when they make a stupid comment (or when they vote with the establishment, rather than take the liberty position) As it is now, we have people freaking out if someone disagrees with something they did in their subforum on RON PAUL's board, even if the criticism comes from them acting like Ron Paul has the plague.

Let these candidates come to us and fear pissing US off if they want out support. Stop giving it to them when they bite the hands that have been feeding them.

I agree, when they make bad votes, take bad positions, etc. But I guess, when it comes to the issue of rhetorical style and making "stupid comments"...it's very subjective what people consider to be a stupid comment, and not everyone is going to agree.

[FSP-Rebel]

Now I'm a neocon???
http://i50.tinypic.com/52e6te.jpg

[cajuncocoa]

I agree, when they make bad votes, take bad positions, etc. But I guess, when it comes to the issue of rhetorical style and making "stupid comments"...it's very subjective what people consider to be a stupid comment, and not everyone is going to agree.Of course we won't all agree. That's not the point. As it is now, and because these candidates have a subforum, it insulates them from criticism when some here feel it's warranted.

[EBounding]

It's a really weird thing for him to say. I mean, he was trying to become a Ron Paul delegate. I think he could have rephrased it and say something like, "I have a great deal of respect for Ron Paul. My politicial beliefs are similar to Ronald Reagan's conservative philosophy", but whatever. He's in an incredibly unusual situation and should be given slack until he votes poorly on policy matters. He essentially won the $500M Powerball, poltically speaking, and the establishment is going to go all out to get it back. Even if he does vote 100% "establishment", they're still going to primary him. I guarantee it.

So, ask yourselves, would you rather have Cassis in there? She almost certainly would have voted for Boehner and the Sandy pork package. Why not just tone down the rhetoric for now?

[AGRP]

Now I'm a neocon??? If I'm a neocon, you don't have a future. I'll leave it at that.

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/f/f8/ManiacalLaugh.gif

[CaptLouAlbano]

Of course we won't all agree. That's not the point. As it is now, and because these candidates have a subforum, it insulates them from criticism when some here feel it's warranted.

Honestly, you seem more concerned about the goings on of an internet message board than you do about what is going on in the real world. Does it really matter who's board, who's subforum, who's .com it is? It's the frigging internet for Pete's sake - this isn't the real world. Perhaps, getting out and meeting some real folks and engaging them on the issues of the day would be helpful and channel some of that negative energy in a positive way.

You have spent how many hours now arguing about a comment made by Kerry, which (if you read the original article) could very well be taken out of context. We do not know what the leading question or statement was that preceded the quote from Kerry.

[sailingaway]

Honestly, you seem more concerned about the goings on of an internet message board than you do about what is going on in the real world. Does it really matter who's board, who's subforum, who's .com it is? It's the frigging internet for Pete's sake - this isn't the real world. Perhaps, getting out and meeting some real folks and engaging them on the issues of the day would be helpful and channel some of that negative energy in a positive way.

You have spent how many hours now arguing about a comment made by Kerry, which (if you read the original article) could very well be taken out of context. We do not know what the leading question or statement was that preceded the quote from Kerry.

But she is entitled to her opinions and concerns. We do hold our candidates responsible, some of us differently than others. There is no need for pure consensus that I see.

[CaptLouAlbano]

But she is entitled to her opinions and concerns. We do hold our candidates responsible, some of us differently than others. There is no need for pure consensus that I see.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and as we all know opinions are like a--holes, everyone has one. But I think all of us need to remember sometimes, that this is a small internet forum - this isn't a movement, or an organization. It's a dumping ground for opinions and little more.

Like I said earlier, the owner could stop paying the bill and this thing would be gone overnight. I think some folks here might need therapy if that were the case.

[TheTexan]

I think the core issue of disagreement here is that we have different ideas of how to expand the base.

We can expand the base by staying true to the message and reinforcing our core liberty supporters. Or we can expand the base by straying from the message and making our tent bigger. Or both.

Both approaches have their merit.

The bigger the base of our core liberty supporters, the more meaning and value our bills will have when they get passed.

The bigger our tent is, the more likely we can get bills passed at all.

The problem as I see it is too many people are relying too much on the bigger tent. Winning elections. Passing bills. But with little concern for the realities of how little liberty they will actually achieve in this way. If legislative action is ever going to be a viable route to freedom, we'll need a bigger liberty core.

Unfortunately, the predominant reliance on the bigger tent is alienating and chasing out the core liberty base, which is honestly I believe doing far more damage to the movement than these elected positions are worth.

Just my 2 cents

[sailingaway]

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and as we all know opinions are like a--holes, everyone has one. But I think all of us need to remember sometimes, that this is a small internet forum - this isn't a movement, or an organization. It's a dumping ground for opinions and little more.

Actually, it has proven to be an organization tool on many occasions, and a community in between. It is a resource.

[fr33]

Well that's a lesson learned. I shouldn't have donated to him and never will again.

[CaptLouAlbano]

I think the core issue of disagreement here is that we have different ideas of how to expand the base.

We can expand the base by staying true to the message and reinforcing our core liberty supporters. Or we can expand the base by straying from the message and making our tent bigger. Or both.

Both approaches have their merit.

The bigger the base of our core liberty supporters, the more meaning and value our bills will have when they get passed.

The bigger our tent is, the more likely we can get bills passed at all.

The problem as I see it is too many people are relying too much on the bigger tent. Winning elections. Passing bills. But with little concern for the realities of how little liberty they will actually achieve in this way. If legislative action is ever going to be a viable route to freedom, we'll need a bigger liberty core.

Unfortunately, the predominant reliance on the bigger tent is alienating and chasing out the core liberty base, which is honestly I believe doing far more damage to the movement than these elected positions are worth.

Just my 2 cents

That's a fine like to walk though, because as you insulate the core you inherently turn people away who do not subscribe the level of purity expressed by the core. I don't know how much of the info from the Buchanan days is still available online, but that is essentially what occurred with that group. The group that followed Pat to the Reform party kept dwindling because they were so insistent on a micromanaged purity that was beyond most people's comprehension.

Another good example is the CP. If you have one of their groups in your area, be a fly on the wall at one of their get-togethers.

[green73]

Well that's a lesson learned. I shouldn't have donated to him and never will again.

Haven't you been listening? Words mean nothing. It's how he votes that matters. Let him praise Hilter as long as he votes correctly. Oh, and forget that he jumped ship and voted for Boner. He's just being crafty!

[sailingaway]

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and as we all know opinions are like a--holes, everyone has one. But I think all of us need to remember sometimes, that this is a small internet forum - this isn't a movement, or an organization. It's a dumping ground for opinions and little more.

Like I said earlier, the owner could stop paying the bill and this thing would be gone overnight. I think some folks here might need therapy if that were the case.

that seems unnecessarily snarky.

Why do you keep coming back, since you discount it so much?

[AuH20]

I think the core issue of disagreement here is that we have different ideas of how to expand the base.

We can expand the base by staying true to the message and reinforcing our core liberty supporters. Or we can expand the base by straying from the message and making our tent bigger. Or both.

Both approaches have their merit.

The bigger the base of our core liberty supporters, the more meaning and value our bills will have when they get passed.

The bigger our tent is, the more likely we can get bills passed at all.

The problem as I see it is too many people are relying too much on the bigger tent. Winning elections. Passing bills. But with little concern for the realities of how little liberty they will actually achieve in this way. If legislative action is ever going to be a viable route to freedom, we'll need a bigger liberty core.

Unfortunately, the predominant reliance on the bigger tent is alienating and chasing out the core liberty base, which is honestly I believe doing far more damage to the movement than these elected positions are worth.

Just my 2 cents

I think idea dissemination is much more important than perceived purity. Hearing and listening are two different processes for the undecided voter. For example, many Americans agreed with Ron Paul on a host of issues, but it didn't convert to votes thanks to the negative connotation associated with him. This is one of the reasons why Rand classified himself as a constitutional conservative as opposed to a libertarian. Unfairly or not, libertarian is a sullied term weighed down by falsehoods.

[sailingaway]

That's a fine like to walk though, because as you insulate the core you inherently turn people away who do not subscribe the level of purity expressed by the core. I don't know how much of the info from the Buchanan days is still available online, but that is essentially what occurred with that group. The group that followed Pat to the Reform party kept dwindling because they were so insistent on a micromanaged purity that was beyond most people's comprehension.
On the other hand, a bunch are turned off by politics as usual as well, and if you are one of those, the idea that 'some' might be turned off by purity isn't incredibly persuasive. YOU are turned off by what appeals to them.

There are different types of people on this board.

[sailingaway]

I think idea dissemination is much more important than perceived purity. Hearing and listening are two different processes. For example, many Americans agreed with Ron Paul on a host of issues, but it didn't convert to votes thanks to the negative connotation associated with him. This is one of the reasons why Rand classified himself as a constitutional conservative as opposed to a libertarian. Unfairly or not, libertarian is a sullied term weighed down by falsehoods.

but many woke up with Ron Paul who could hear a more usual patter until doomsday and turn it off as politics as usual. As for 'libertarian', I'm not stuck on the label and neither is Ron, particularly. The principles are what is important, not the label. Ron called himself a Constitutional Conservative for a long time, including throughout his 2008 election, and I consider myself one to this day.

[CaptLouAlbano]

that seems unnecessarily snarky.

Why do you keep coming back, since you discount it so much?

Entertainment.

[AJ Antimony]

Excellent article! Kerry continues to impress me

[CaptLouAlbano]

On the other hand, a bunch are turned off by politics as usual as well, and if you are one of those, the idea that 'some' might be turned off by purity isn't incredibly persuasive. YOU are turned off by what appeals to them.

There are different types of people on this board.

And again though, this is an internet forum, so little real world stuff is being done here. Conversely, I see a lot of real world stuff being done locally, and the base expanding tremendously. We have had a ton of new folks come out to the GOP club and college group I am involved with. New people are sitting on committee, and we have a membership drive coming up in a couple weeks that has over 250 volunteers signed up to help out. Those numbers are fantastic, and show the positive effect of getting out among the people and spreading the message has. And you can be damn sure that I am not going to turn away people just because they don't hold up to a self imposed standard of purity.

[sailingaway]

Entertainment.

Sure. But you put effort into it as if it matters. Persuading people is persuading people, wherever it is done.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Sure. But you put effort into it as if it matters. Persuading people is persuading people, wherever it is done.

It keeps my wife from hearing my diatribes. You are the lucky recipients instead.

[sailingaway]

And again though, this is an internet forum, so little real world stuff is being done here. Conversely, I see a lot of real world stuff being done locally, and the base expanding tremendously. We have had a ton of new folks come out to the GOP club and college group I am involved with. New people are sitting on committee, and we have a membership drive coming up in a couple weeks that has over 250 volunteers signed up to help out. Those numbers are fantastic, and show the positive effect of getting out among the people and spreading the message has.

There is definitely stuff happening in the real world as the result of coordination and encouragement here. What people say on the message board does not necessarily reflect what is happening in real life, but we have seen discussions here turn into headlines, fairly often.

[cajuncocoa]

Entertainment.http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/

[RonPaulMall]

Kerry has done just brilliantly since getting elected. Make no mistake, he is going to face a daunting re-election challenge, and he is going to have to play his cards perfectly if he is going to win. So far, he has.

[cbrons]

No, no but all of you think we can ***change*** the Republican party. Keep on tilting at windmills.

[FSP-Rebel]

Kerry has done just brilliantly since getting elected. Make no mistake, he is going to face a daunting re-election challenge, and he is going to have to play his cards perfectly if he is going to win. So far, he has.
Indeed. There's a few peeps in this thread that I'd love to play poker with.

[nobody's_hero]

I disagree. We want different results in 2016 than we had in 2008 and 2012. We have a limited amount of time to make sure all the embarrassing people, who would rather lose and bring us all down with them than win, get the message that they need to shape up or ship out. This board will have a role in that.

I don't know. The liberty movement doubled from 2008 to 2012. I hate to have to keep reminding people of that fact, but it's like now we want a change of strategy mid-game simply because we're not winning enough elections fast enough. We seem to do better when we don't care whether or not we win or lose, and just go in like we're ready to raise hell. And people catch on to the fact that this is something different.

This is not politics-as-usual.

[phill4paul]

I don't know. The liberty movement doubled from 2008 to 2012. I hate to have to keep reminding people of that fact, but it's like now we want a change of strategy mid-game simply because we're not winning enough elections fast enough. We seem to do better when we don't care whether or not we win or lose, and just go in like we're ready to raise hell. And people catch on to the fact that this is something different.

This is not politics-as-usual.

Yup. People did not join this movement to "secretly take over" the GOP. They did it to raise hell because they were damned tired of "business as usual."

[cajuncocoa]

Indeed. There's a few peeps in this thread that I'd love to play poker with.I've no doubt you would be able to win at a game of poker. Poker is a game that requires keeping a straight face so that your opponents don't have any idea where you stand in the game. It's not a game for those who wish to play honest 100% of the time.

The pursuit of liberty should not be played like a game of poker.

[FSP-Rebel]

The pursuit of liberty should not be played like a game of poker.
Playing it cool with a pack of hyenas isn't immoral imo nor is withholding info or misleading ignorant and/or brainwashed people to benefit your truly righteous cause. It's not the same as cheating or stealing which is what our enemies are proficient at in no small terms. I wouldn't operate in the former way with people I cared about but it's the only way I can see to level the playing field with an entrenched and well funded opposition.

[phill4paul]

I've no doubt you would be able to win at a game of poker. Poker is a game that requires keeping a straight face so that your opponents don't have any idea where you stand in the game. It's not a game for those who wish to play honest 100% of the time.

The pursuit of liberty should not be played like a game of poker.

There is a difference between a game of poker and politics. One can potentially be deadly serious. The other definitely is.

[sailingaway]

Playing it cool with a pack of hyenas isn't immoral imo nor is withholding info or misleading ignorant and/or brainwashed people to benefit your truly righteous cause. It's not the same as cheating or stealing which is what our enemies are proficient at in no small terms. I wouldn't operate in the former way with people I cared about but it's the only way I can see to level the playing field with an entrenched and well funded opposition.

But what about the people you are supposed to represent? Shouldn't they know without guessing where you stand?

[LibertyEagle]

Well that's a lesson learned. I shouldn't have donated to him and never will again.

OMG, it's ONE comment people. How about waiting to see how he votes before you throw him in the moat.

[LibertyEagle]

No, no but all of you think we can ***change*** the Republican party. Keep on tilting at windmills.

If we replace the people in power with our own, it will be changed. But, that's not the focus. It is no more than a vehicle to get our folks elected. Guess what, it is working! Or do you call Justin Amash, Rand Paul, Thomas Massie and others, windmills?

[phill4paul]

Does anyone ever tire of politicians riding the R3volutions coattail only to throw you to the wind once they are elected?

How hard is it to say "I'm proud to be considered a Ron Paul Republican."

[ican'tvote]

Maybe it's a good thing he's distancing himself from us. He is a little erratic.

[Confederate]

So Bentivolio is the new Benedict Arnold Rand Paul on this forum?

[Feeding the Abscess]

Ronald Reagan was pretty much a Ron Paul person... except for the part about running up massive debt and ignoring the rule of law and bringing forth more nanny state social conservative agenda items and surrounding himself with neocons... other than things like that, Ronald Reagan was pretty much a Ron Paul person.

P.S.
Personally I think that Bush had him shot and that changed things for Reagan.

If Reagan hadn't been a terrible governor that idea might hold water. But he was a statist while governor, too, raising spending and taxes at record rates.

[itshappening]

Does anyone ever tire of politicians riding the R3volutions coattail only to throw you to the wind once they are elected?

How hard is it to say "I'm proud to be considered a Ron Paul Republican."

How many have done that? There's literally 5 or so congressman worth any salt compared to hundreds of establishmentarians.

[EBounding]

You guys know he has Ron Paul people on his staff right? The Ron Paul Michigan State Coordinator is working for him.

[SpreadOfLiberty]

"I think you are being a little oversensative"

-Ron Paul

[fr33]

OMG, it's ONE comment people. How about waiting to see how he votes before you throw him in the moat.Promoting the false legacy of fascists is not a goal of mine. I'd rather do the opposite.

[tsai3904]

You guys know he has Ron Paul people on his staff right? The Ron Paul Michigan State Coordinator is working for him.

Yea, as his legislative aide. Massie also has a staff or two who previously worked for Ron Paul.

[Bastiat's The Law]

"I think you are being a little oversensative"

-Ron Paul
LOL! Well played.

[phill4paul]

You guys know he has Ron Paul people on his staff right? The Ron Paul Michigan State Coordinator is working for him.

Must be a proud day for him.

[Occam's Banana]

What would Ron Paul do?

Would he get bent out of shape over this?

Would he care about it at all - in any way?

I think not.

[cajuncocoa]

OMG, it's ONE comment people. How about waiting to see how he votes before you throw him in the moat.If you don't know how he's going to vote, why is he being supported here?

[cajuncocoa]

Does anyone ever tire of politicians riding the R3volutions coattail only to throw you to the wind once they are elected?

How hard is it to say "I'm proud to be considered a Ron Paul Republican."thread winner

[tsai3904]

If you don't know how he's going to vote, why is he being supported here?

Because he shares the same ideas of Ron Paul. You keep talking about pushing ideas and not personalities yet you keep ignoring that Kerry has gone on the record with his policy ideas and that is the basis which everyone expects him how to vote.

I'll share this interview again so more people can judge for themselves.

http://libertycandidates.com/2012/01/kerry-bentivolio/

[cajuncocoa]

Because he shares the same ideas of Ron Paul. You keep talking about pushing ideas and not personalities yet you keep ignoring that Kerry has gone on the record with his policy ideas and that is the basis which everyone expects him how to vote.

I'll share this interview again so more people can judge for themselves.

http://libertycandidates.com/2012/01/kerry-bentivolio/That's great if he shares Ron's ideas. That's 80% of the battle to be sure. But don't throw Ron Paul under the bus with the next breath. If he stands with Ron, he should be proud to own it...and screw everyone who doesn't like it.

[tsai3904]

That's great if he shares Ron's ideas. That's 80% of the battle to be sure. But don't throw Ron Paul under the bus with the next breath. If he stands with Ron, he should be proud to own it...and screw everyone who doesn't like it.

I thought ideas and policy positions are all that matter. Why does it matter if he stands with a person or not or what label he ascribes to himself?

Does it matter to you whether Ron labels himself as a constitutional conservative or libertarian? Should people get offended if he characterized himself one way over the other?

[sailingaway]

I thought ideas and policy positions are all that matter. Why does it matter if he stands with a person or not or what label he ascribes to himself?

Does it matter to you whether Ron labels himself as a constitutional conservative or libertarian? Should people get offended if he characterized himself one way over the other?

That's not like this. If someone endorsed Ron and campaigned for Ron and Ron got funding as being that kind of candidate in his campaign and THEN after he was elected said he really wasn't like that guy who helped him and whose reputation he ran on..... THAT would be like this.

It isn't the end of the world, but it does smack of disloyalty, and show me where Ron has ever shown a whisper of that.

[tsai3904]

That's not like this. If someone endorsed Ron and campaigned for Ron and Ron got funding as being that kind of candidate in his campaign and THEN after he was elected said he really wasn't like that guy who helped him and whose reputation he ran on..... THAT would be like this.

It isn't the end of the world, but it does smack of disloyalty, and show me where Ron has ever shown a whisper of that.

I know what you're saying but it does seem like WE put the Ron Paul label on Kerry. As far as I know, I don't think Kerry came onto RPF or Daily Paul asking for help. If Kerry claimed to be a "Ron Paul" person and now said this, I can see your point. But again, I only remember Kerry saying he respected Ron and Rand a great deal, which he repeated in this interview.

Kerry did a Reddit AMA and said he admired Ron a great deal. He never claimed to be a Ron Paul person, whatever that means.

[cajuncocoa]

I thought ideas and policy positions are all that matter. Why does it matter if he stands with a person or not or what label he ascribes to himself?

Does it matter to you whether Ron labels himself as a constitutional conservative or libertarian? Should people get offended if he characterized himself one way over the other?No, it does not; and that's not the same thing.

If I'm understanding his supporters correctly, Mr. Bentivolio is a little reluctant to embrace Ron Paul because he may be primaried if he does. Never mind that he wouldn't be a Congressman right now in the first place if it weren't for the financial help and support of Ron Paul supporters. Maybe he would have preferred if Ron hadn't endorsed him. Maybe he would feel better if we distanced ourselves from him.

[tsai3904]

No, it does not; and that's not the same thing.

If I'm understanding his supporters correctly, Mr. Bentivolio is a little reluctant to embrace Ron Paul because he may be primaried if he does. Never mind that he wouldn't be a Congressman right now in the first place if it weren't for the financial help and support of Ron Paul supporters. Maybe he would have preferred if Ron hadn't endorsed him. Maybe he would feel better if we distanced ourselves from him.

How do you get that when he said he respected Ron a great deal? By the way, do you realize that more than likely, the article does not include his full statement or the context of the question.

[cajuncocoa]

It isn't the end of the world, but it does smack of disloyalty, and show me where Ron has ever shown a whisper of that.You're right; it's not the end of the world. And the discussion would be over by now but it really irks me when a candidate's supporters just keep making excuses after excuses no matter what their candidates says or does. That's politics as usual IMO. If Mr. Bentivolio had wanted to proclaim himself NOT a Ron Paul person, it would have been nice for those who donated to his moneybombs here to know that prior to November. Full disclosure: I'm not one who donated to him; as I said in one of my first posts in this thread, there was always something about him that didn't ring true to me.

[Uriah]

Ron Paul was a Ronald Reagan Republican too. Until Reagan walked a different talk.

[tsai3904]

You're right; it's not the end of the world. And the discussion would be over by now but it really irks me when a candidate's supporters just keep making excuses after excuses no matter what their candidates says or does. That's politics as usual IMO. If Mr. Bentivolio had wanted to proclaim himself NOT a Ron Paul person, it would have been nice for those who donated to his moneybombs here to know that prior to November. Full disclosure: I'm not one who donated to him; as I said in one of my first posts in this thread, there was always something about him that didn't ring true to me.

Who's making excuses? Most of us are just trying to say FOCUS ON THE ISSUES!

In regards to you keep saying that Bentivolio claiming to be a Ron Paul person, he never touted himself as a Ron Paul person...I'm not sure where you keep getting that idea. Just because a lot of us here supported him doesn't mean that Kerry proclaimed that title.

Look how he answered this Reddit question prior to his election:


Please name 2 senators and 2 congressmen/women that you admire based on their political philosophies. Also, if you could name at least 2 federal departments that you would support cutting, that would be very helpful.

I admire Justin Amash, and I plan to be the second Congressman to post all of my votes on-line with explanations. Also Allan West, who has been a fighter for our country for 30 years. I admire his tenacity in fighting for a smaller government.

In the Senate, Mike Lee and especially Jim DeMint, who has been sticking by his principles for many years.

And of course, Ron and Rand Paul.

That doesn't sound like someone proclaiming to be a Ron Paul person. Does this matter to me, sure, but what's more important...THE ISSUES and he's right on the mark in that category.

[cajuncocoa]

How do you get that when he said he respected Ron a great deal? By the way, do you realize that more than likely, the article does not include his full statement or the context of the question. A lot of people have said they respected Ron. And in the next breath, they would tell you why they wouldn't vote for him.

I respect Dennis Kucinich as a Congressman, but I'm definitely NOT a Dennis Kucinich person...it would be a mistake for DK supporters to contribute to any campaign of mine should I be running for office! :rolleyes:

And if he feels he was misquoted in the article or taken out of context, I'm sure he will be happy to issue a correction or clarification. When he does, I look forward to reading it.

[cajuncocoa]

Ron Paul was a Ronald Reagan Republican too. Until Reagan walked a different talk.So was I. And then I woke up.

[SpreadOfLiberty]

Whoever brought up McConnell respecting Ron in the tribute video.....everyone else in that video is on our side. Rand, Lee, Amash, Jones, and Duncan.

[cajuncocoa]

In regards to you keep saying that Bentivolio claiming to be a Ron Paul person, he never touted himself as a Ron Paul person.Nope, I never said that and I didn't say HE said it. I never thought of him that way, and I said so. I think many people here tried to sell him as a "Ron Paul person". After all, there are many people running for office but only a few of them have a subforum on this board, and Kerry Bentivolio is one of those few. If his votes earn him that distinction, fine (although his vote for Boehner last week was not inspiring).

[cajuncocoa]

You know what? I'd really like to be done with this thread. I don't really care about Kerry Bentivolio, and I've spent more time on him today than he probably deserves. It just continues to make me nauseous to see the compromises and concessions that some on this board are willing to make in the name of politics, after we've come this far.

Peace out.

[angelatc]

OMG, it's ONE comment people. How about waiting to see how he votes before you throw him in the moat.

Word. And consider the people asking the question for heaven's sakes! I can almost guarantee there was a follow-up gotcha question waiting in the wings if a "Yes" answer had emerged. The media here are solid progressives. They would rather have a neocon in office than a fiscal conservative.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Who's making excuses? Most of us are just trying to say FOCUS ON THE ISSUES!

In regards to you keep saying that Bentivolio claiming to be a Ron Paul person, he never touted himself as a Ron Paul person...I'm not sure where you keep getting that idea. Just because a lot of us here supported him doesn't mean that Kerry proclaimed that title.

Look how he answered this Reddit question prior to his election:



That doesn't sound like someone proclaiming to be a Ron Paul person. Does this matter to me, sure, but what's more important...THE ISSUES and he's right on the mark in that category.

Didn't Kerry say he'd be Ron Paul on steroids during the primary season?

[erowe1]

Didn't Kerry say he'd be Ron Paul on steroids during the primary season?

I think someone else called him that.

[Brett85]

I'll just wait and see how he actually votes.

[Feeding the Abscess]

erowe1:

Noted.


I'll just wait and see how he actually votes.

Only problem with that is that even if he voted anarchist, cloaking himself with the Reagan Republican label would cause him to be what many people - even here - have accused Ron of being: an ineffectual no vote. At least when Ron voted no on something, it gave him an opportunity to explain it. And that was the beauty of Ron voting no, not simply that he was the only person who voted no on something.

If you're going to be hardline in your voting record, you're going to need to bring some rhetoric along, too. Otherwise you're tilting at windmills.

[tsai3904]

At least when Ron voted no on something, it gave him an opportunity to explain it. And that was the beauty of Ron voting no, not simply that he was the only person who voted no on something.

It wasn't just that Ron explained his No votes, it was the grassroots spreading his explanation around the internet.

Kerry has pledged to post all his vote explanations online like Amash and Amash has garnered 40k+ Facebook likes in two years. That's a pretty good audience to spread the message to.

[cbrons]

If we replace the people in power with our own, it will be changed. But, that's not the focus. It is no more than a vehicle to get our folks elected. Guess what, it is working! Or do you call Justin Amash, Rand Paul, Thomas Massie and others, windmills?

I call the entire effort to transform the Republican party from a criminal gang into a respectable liberty advocate to really start to repeal the statist juggernaut a giant windmill. Those individuals are nice and say some good things and even do some good things, but the system is not setup to permit any real change and by continuously trying to "change" it from within, we're 1.) wasting time and effort and 2.) offering it legitimacy. We need to push for massive secession and nullification, using the economic collapse that will be here within the decade as a catalyst.

[phill4paul]

Seriously, I ask again...........How hard would it have been to say......

"I'd be proud to be considered a Ron Paul Republican. Here's why........<foreign policy>......<economic policy>."

[tsai3904]

Seriously, I ask again...........How hard would it have been to say......

"I'd be proud to be considered a Ron Paul Republican. Here's why........<foreign policy>......<economic policy>."

It would not have been hard but he chose not to do it. What's your point?

The important question to ask is if any of his policy positions have changed since he got elected. If not, I don't understand what the problem is.

[EBounding]

Didn't Kerry say he'd be Ron Paul on steroids during the primary season?


That was establishment alcoholic, L. Brooks Patterson (county executive).

[TheTexan]

I call the entire effort to transform the Republican party from a criminal gang into a respectable liberty advocate to really start to repeal the statist juggernaut a giant windmill. Those individuals are nice and say some good things and even do some good things, but the system is not setup to permit any real change and by continuously trying to "change" it from within, we're 1.) wasting time and effort and 2.) offering it legitimacy. We need to push for massive secession and nullification, using the economic collapse that will be here within the decade as a catalyst.

This x1000

[Dystopian]

The new trend seems to be to throw Ron Paul under the bus every chance you get. I am a Ron Paul person, and I only support Ron Paul people. Bentivolio can stick his "Reagan conservatism" up his ass.

Reagan was not fit to hold Ron's jock strap.

[AuH20]

I call the entire effort to transform the Republican party from a criminal gang into a respectable liberty advocate to really start to repeal the statist juggernaut a giant windmill. Those individuals are nice and say some good things and even do some good things, but the system is not setup to permit any real change and by continuously trying to "change" it from within, we're 1.) wasting time and effort and 2.) offering it legitimacy. We need to push for massive secession and nullification, using the economic collapse that will be here within the decade as a catalyst.

It's about the legitimacy and *******microphone******** which come with the GOP affiliation. No one gets heard on the street corner. This mission has nothing to do with cleaning up the Republican Party. Once again, we have some clumsy, obstinant folks who have the tactical mind of a hungry canine.

[Occam's Banana]

It would not have been hard but he chose not to do it. What's your point?

The important question to ask is if any of his policy positions have changed since he got elected. If not, I don't understand what the problem is.

Or to put it another way: all other things remaining equal (i.e., Bentivolio's stated positions on the Federal Reserve & sound money, foreign policy, civil liberties, etc.), what difference does it make whether Bentivolio says "I am not a Ron Paul person" or "I am a Ron Paul person"?

[phill4paul]

It would not have been hard but he chose not to do it. What's your point?

The important question to ask is if any of his policy positions have changed since he got elected. If not, I don't understand what the problem is.

I think my point is self evident. If you don't get it you won't.

[tsai3904]

I think my point is self evident. If you don;t get it you won't.

So what's more important? A label or actual policy positions?

[TheTexan]

It's about the legitimacy and *******microphone******** which come with the GOP affiliation. No one gets heard on the street corner. This mission has nothing to do with cleaning up the Republican Party. Once again, we have some clumsy, obstinant folks who have the tactical mind of a hungry canine.

I agree with you its nice to have a microphone, but there are actually quite a few people who do expect to "clean up" the Republican Party. Or "replace it". Or what have you.

Then, there's an entire different group of people who have resigned themselves to live out the rest of their lives in servitude, and aim to get as many liberty people elected to simply slow down the advance of tyranny. That's their choice and they are free to make that choice, but its not good enough for me.

[phill4paul]

So what's more important? A label or actual policy positions?

Principles. He made a lot of progress do to Ron Paul's endorsement and his supporters goodwill. Like I said... How fucking hard would it have been to simply say "I'd be proud to be called a Ron Paul Republican."

[Dystopian]

Principles. He made a lot of progress do to Ron Paul's endorsement and his supporters goodwill. Like I said... How fucking hard would it have been to simply say "I'd be proud to be called a Ron Paul Republican."

But then he might offend Mark Levin. Some people on this forum are very concerned about not offending him. :rolleyes:

[phill4paul]

But then he might offend Mark Levin. Some people on this forum are very concerned about not offending him. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't want to rock the boat now that we have foot on the gunwale. Best to sit down and shut the fuck up and be thankful you got aboard.

[FrankRep]

Who needs enemies when we have each other?

I'm seeing some pretty vicious attacking on extremely minor issues.

Pretty shameful.

[NoOneButPaul]

So remember when I said eventually all the purists would come to hate these people that were supposedly the next great wave of liberty fighters?

Well here we go... 1-6-13... couldn't even make it out of the month.

We can't expect our people to act like sheep and do and say everything we wish, our people are individuals with their own opinions and ways of doing things.

This ultimately proves the point I was trying to make months ago that slamming down people like Jeff Flake was ludicrous because eventually "our guys" (who hadn't made a single vote at that point) would eventually end up doing or saying things we didn't like and all the people pumping up the 2012 newbies would get a quick dose of reality by 2014.

These people aren't always going to vote like Ron Paul would have and we need to start accepting that.

Instead of deciding to destroy Kerry, and everyone else who does a couple of things you don't like (Wait for it, because the rest of these 2012 people will follow) we should instead be embracing people who agree with almost all of our message.

"The statists are winning, and we can't hold our people to the Ron Paul standard until we have 535 Ron Pauls in Congress. Destroying our people over these types of minor occurrences is a recipe for failure."

^I wrote that three months ago when everyone was in a hissy about Flake... well... here we go... are you all going to hate on Kerry and drop our numbers even further or embrace the people who agree with 90% of what we're saying?

I think the choice is clear, but if the rest of you want to take your ball, go home, do nothing, and cry about how wrong everyone and everything is then i'd suggest registering with the Libertarian Party so you can complain with the rest of the do-nothings.

Until Libertarians unite in the GOP, and all conservative factions within the GOP come together embracing the IDEAS of Freedom and Liberty (while not having to agree on every single point) then the statists, Keynesians, and Obamas of the world will just keep winning.

Good luck with that...

[phill4paul]

Destroying our people over these types of minor occurrences is a recipe for failure."

But, he's not one of OUR people.......... "I'm not really a Ron Paul person"

[Occam's Banana]

I call the entire effort to transform the Republican party from a criminal gang into a respectable liberty advocate to really start to repeal the statist juggernaut a giant windmill. Those individuals are nice and say some good things and even do some good things, but the system is not setup to permit any real change and by continuously trying to "change" it from within, we're 1.) wasting time and effort and 2.) offering it legitimacy. We need to push for massive secession and nullification, using the economic collapse that will be here within the decade as a catalyst.

I essentially agree with all this ^^^ (especially the bit about secession & nullification). However, I would quibble with a few things:

1) it is not a total waste of time and effort. Participation in politics for the purpose of "reforming the State" is indeed ultimately futile. Liberty cannot be achieved by political means. But that does not mean that engaging in the political process is pointless. To the extent that such participation can result in a questioning or undermining of the propriety of State institutions (such as the Federal Reserve system, for just one example), it can serve a very useful purpose. Politics offers an important venue - perhaps THE most important venue - for challenging Statist assumptions, premises and institutions.

(NOTE: I'm not directing the following comments at you, cbrons - I'm just tying back into the thread topic here.)

While politics cannot serve as the vehicle which will take us to our destination, it can be a very useful & effective means for planting the necessary seeds (see: "Paul, Ron, career of" for the best example of this). In fact, given how saturated our society is with the omni-present State, participation in politics is pretty much absolutely necessary (even if only as a desperate, self-defensive "rear guard" action). Folks like Kerry Bentivolio help serve this purpose - regardless of whether they proudly declare themselves to be "Ron Paul persons" or not. The significance of such rhetorical posturing utterly pales in comparison to the importance of providing a platform to (and winning wider "social credibilty" for) our ideas & ideals.

Arguing over whether people should or should not identify themselves as "Ron Paul persons" is silly. It is a pointless diversion and a complete waste of time. The only important question here is whether people like Kerry Bentivolio will support the causes of auditing/ending the Fed, moving foreign policy towards the sane end of the spectrum, protecting civil liberties, etc. How they choose to label themselves in the course of doing so is entirely irrelevant.

2) the State is already regarded as being legitimate by the vast majority of people. Participation in politics (be it in the form of voting, joining a party, or running for office) is the effect - not the cause - of this perceived "legitimacy".

[cbrons]

It's about the legitimacy and *******microphone******** which come with the GOP affiliation. No one gets heard on the street corner. This mission has nothing to do with cleaning up the Republican Party. Once again, we have some clumsy, obstinant folks who have the tactical mind of a hungry canine.

So in your mind using the microphone behind the podium with this logo garners you more respect?:

http://nyopoliticker.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/gop_climate.jpeg

Let me ask you a question - of all of the so-called liberty caucus members who have been sent to congress, what percentage of them have become corrupted by the system?

You can call me a fool all you want. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing how many times?

[GunnyFreedom]

As someone who walked down into the filthy pit and came back out clean, I can tell you that one of the things these guys don't much get is our support. Things start to look a little scary and we go all public enemy number one. Right now these people are lost at sea in a whole new world, and evil people are offering them help to find footing and do work. The more we run away from them to offer them a foundation upon which to stand, the more those evil people will influence them instead of us. Just remember that.

[GunnyFreedom]

It is easy to get shut off in the ivory tower and not really see what is going on outside of your world. Everything is honorable this, wine and cheese that. Congress is 10x more. I actually hurt my ability to do things because I refused lobbyist events, so that wasn't really wise, but I wanted nothing to do with that refuse.

Many of the folks we propel into office will need to be reminded regularly why we are doing this. Do not hesitate to take them back to their first days discovering liberty.

[GunnyFreedom]

"We are here today because" America is dying and going back to the Constitution is the only thing that will save her. So let's get to work.

[kcchiefs6465]

As someone who walked down into the filthy pit and came back out clean, I can tell you that one of the things these guys don't much get is our support. Things start to look a little scary and we go all public enemy number one. Right now these people are lost at sea in a whole new world, and evil people are offering them help to find footing and do work. The more we run away from them to offer them a foundation upon which to stand, the more those evil people will influence them instead of us. Just remember that.


It is easy to get shut off in the ivory tower and not really see what is going on outside of your world. Everything is honorable this, wine and cheese that. Congress is 10x more. I actually hurt my ability to do things because I refused lobbyist events, so that wasn't really wise, but I wanted nothing to do with that refuse.

Many of the folks we propel into office will need to be reminded regularly why we are doing this. Do not hesitate to take them back to their first days discovering liberty.


"We are here today because" America is dying and going back to the Constitution is the only thing that will save her. So let's get to work.
Must spread some rep around. Keep up the good work.

[Wolverine302]

As someone who's met several of his staff members, I do not question Bentivolio's oath of office. Get over it, there will never be another Ron Paul.

[steph3n]

this place is like a goon squad of misfit kids.

[ican'tvote]

He did donate money to Ron's campaign. I think that says a lot.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Principles. He made a lot of progress do to Ron Paul's endorsement and his supporters goodwill. Like I said... How fucking hard would it have been to simply say "I'd be proud to be called a Ron Paul Republican."


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to phill4paul again.

[Chester Copperpot]

Lets see how he votes on issues.... All this other crap is just politicking... Voting on the issues is where its really at..

If I were in congress, Id prob just call myself a Ron Paul republican... However calling myself a Ronald Reagan Republican would be kinda neat in that I could still vote like Ron Paul... and nobody would want to criticize me because I "follow" Ronald Reagan

[EBounding]

While I think Kerry could have phrased his answer without throwing the "Ron Paul People" under the bus, I ultimately want him to defend liberty, not Ron Paul. We think the two as synonymous, but most of Michigan's 11th does not.