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View Full Version : Illinois firefighters stand idle while man drowns [VIDEO]




green73
01-05-2013, 02:22 PM
All Hail the 1st Responders

Posted by Lew Rockwell (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/130132.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed)

The first to respond when it comes to cashing their huge checks ripped off from the people, that is. Rescuing (http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/04/illinois-firefighters-stand-idle-while-man-drowns/) a drowning man is something different for these uniformed demigods.

Anti Federalist
01-05-2013, 02:33 PM
More info please.

Can't watch videos.

When, where, why, who?

Cleaner44
01-05-2013, 02:35 PM
More info please.

Can't watch videos.

When, where, why, who?

A Champaign, Illinois man drowned Jan. 1 in a mall pond as increasingly angry observers demanded a rescue, at least 13 minutes after the local fire department arrived at the scene.

The man, Kenneth Brown, 20, slipped under the freezing water 18 minutes after falling through the ice, but local firefighters didn’t launch an inflatable boat until just before he disappeared. The firefighters pulled Brown’s body out of the water roughly an hour after they arrived.

juleswin
01-05-2013, 02:36 PM
I dunno man, that was a bone cold waters. I dunno if I would have done anything more than throw the unfortunate dude a safety line. At some point self preservation of a fire fighter overrides that to be a hero.

Sad story all around but I dunno if I would blame the FF

tod evans
01-05-2013, 02:36 PM
Officer safety.

Now Firefighter safety?

I still respect firefighters/emergency crews but if this becomes their modus-operandi they too will fall from grace...

VoluntaryAmerican
01-05-2013, 02:39 PM
More info please.

Can't watch videos.

When, where, why, who?

"A Champaign, Illinois man drowned Jan. 1 in a mall pond as increasingly angry observers demanded a rescue, at least 13 minutes after the local fire department arrived at the scene."

Why?

Police and Firefighters held back volunteers willing to go in and help... they were deploying some type of raft and it took to long.

tod evans
01-05-2013, 02:40 PM
I dunno man, that was a bone cold waters. I dunno if I would have done anything more than throw the unfortunate dude a safety line. At some point self preservation of a fire fighter overrides that to be a hero.

Sad story all around but I dunno if I would blame the FF

As a 10 y/o boy I jumped into the pond to pull out one of the neighbor kids who'd fallen through....This was north of Chicago and plenty cold....

So hell yes I expect a grown man who's paid with tax-payer dollars to get his happy ass out in the wet and save the guy!

Danke
01-05-2013, 02:41 PM
More info please.

Can't watch videos.

When, where, why, who?

http://statter911.com/files/2013/01/IL-Champaign-man-drowns-1-1-13.jpg

Cleaner44
01-05-2013, 02:43 PM
With all of the equipment on firetrucks they couldn't figure out how to do something quickly? Use a hose as a rope. use a ladder to extend across the ice...

Pretty sick.

green73
01-05-2013, 02:49 PM
With all of the equipment on firetrucks they couldn't figure out how to do something quickly? Use a hose as a rope. use a ladder to extend across the ice...

Pretty sick.

I don't suppose they could've ventured to the near shore and tossed one of these out.
http://www.tamgroup.com.eg/images/i_want_to_buy_life_buoy(4).jpg

green73
01-05-2013, 02:51 PM
Easy solution: double their budget.

Brian4Liberty
01-05-2013, 02:51 PM
The Police established a perimeter, and made sure that the mundanes know their place. What else do you want?


“Myself and one other man got so angry watching the fire dept rescue teams ‘playing on the bank’ that we offered to be tied off and go in ourselves, and we certainly were threatened with arrest !,” claimed another user, named perryupopcorn.

“The only thing the police did was move the ever increasing angry crowd back when they started demanding the fire dept at least attempt to rescue the young man !,” perryupopcorn added in another comment.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/04/illinois-firefighters-stand-idle-while-man-drowns/

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 02:53 PM
Imagine his last thoughts.

"Ah, the rescue squad is here. Thank God, I'm saved. Worth every penny I paid for taxes when the get me outta here.....when they....get....me....out***********"

tod evans
01-05-2013, 02:53 PM
Easy solution: double their budget.

Fuck that fire the whole damn cowardly lot of em'!

Brian4Liberty
01-05-2013, 02:54 PM
I don't suppose they could've ventured to the near shore and tossed one of these out.
http://www.tamgroup.com.eg/images/i_want_to_buy_life_buoy(4).jpg

They tried that. It appears that the guy got himself out in the very center, too far to throw anything to him.

puppetmaster
01-05-2013, 03:01 PM
Fucking hero's eh.....their definition of a hero in this country is anyone who wears a uniform and is a government leach.

A real hero would be the person who saved him or at least made a credible attempt at a rescue. Those pussy firefighters should be replaced by real men.

Danke
01-05-2013, 03:03 PM
Easy solution: double their budget.

Yes! Apparently they could use a longer ladder truck.

Anti Federalist
01-05-2013, 03:11 PM
The Police established a perimeter, and made sure that the mundanes know their place. What else do you want?

Ah, OK, should have known.

That's where we are today, stupid, fat, cowardly fucksticks.

Thirty years ago, a mundane would get national recognition and accolades from the President for bravery and selfless courage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Skutnik

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/eXSQ9YGQvOI/mqdefault.jpg

Now, it gets you arrested.

Don't tell me times haven't changed.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 03:12 PM
Ah, OK, should have known.

That's where we are today, stupid, fat, cowardly fucksticks.

Thirty years ago, a mundane would get national recognition and accolades from the President for bravery and selfless courage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Skutnik

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/eXSQ9YGQvOI/mqdefault.jpg

Now, it gets you arrested.

Don't tell me times haven't changed.

Amen!

emazur
01-05-2013, 03:13 PM
Not the first time I've read about things like this:
from 2011
'Handcuffed by policy': Fire crews watch man die (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43233984/ns/us_news-life#.UOiV9newWSo)
Home burns while firefighters watch, again (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?335388-Home-burns-while-firefighters-watch-again)

Yet it's the free market that always is accused of just "letting you die" should you be in need, even if you're not in dire need. Another example from 2011:
Human Pieces Of Shit Arrest Charity Workers For Feeding Poor People (http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/06/17/human-pieces-of-shit-arrest-charity-workers-for-feeding-poor-people/)

Anti Federalist
01-05-2013, 03:16 PM
There you go folks: on full display.

Exactly where the cowardly, effeminate, emasculated, "Safety Uber Alles" mindset leads to.

Enjoy your brave new world.

brushfire
01-05-2013, 03:21 PM
That's it!! Pension reform! We need to stop these killers. Pension reform must be rushed through the house, in a special session, on Sunday evening! We have to do this under the cloak of darkness - its for the kids! Ban firefighters.

On a more serious note, its such a shame that they would not permit sumaritans to help. So everyone can now live with the death of this man on their concience, wondering what they could have done, had they not obeyed the "first responders". Tragic for both dead and living.

CaptainAmerica
01-05-2013, 03:29 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/04/illinois-firefighters-stand-idle-while-man-drowns/#ooid=5sd3YyODrOatRa3qr-FyQQ_csVTlo934

Qdog
01-05-2013, 03:33 PM
Well, logically, they may have made the right call. If the ice was just too thin, their vain attempts could very well have gotten more people drowned. It makes sense that they would not want passerby's running in trying to help, and then falling in themselves.

However, emotionally, it seems like they should have at least tried SOMETHING, even if it has little hope of working.

Everyone has their own threshold for danger and risk to their safety. But there is a fine line between bravery and foolishness. There was a time back when I was a cop, I was chasing a shoplifter (stole a pair of bluejeans). The guy ran like a a gazelle. I kept up with him for a long time until he ran across a busy 6 lane freeway. I said screw it, and let him go, because my life is not worth a $40 pair of jeans. If he had been a murderer it would have been a different story. There are plenty of guys that would have kept chasing, and just as many that wouldn't have even tried to catch him (lots of fat, slow cops) but that's their choice to make.

torchbearer
01-05-2013, 03:37 PM
weren't some people rescuing some deer from an ice break just the other day?

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 03:37 PM
There you go folks: on full display.

Exactly where the cowardly, effeminate, emasculated, "Safety Uber Alles" mindset leads to.

Enjoy your brave new world.

In a world where being an hero will make you an outlaw only outlaws will be heroes.

tod evans
01-05-2013, 03:40 PM
I suppose the US needs to hire some European women who aren't scared...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXtAA8Djr_o

Danke
01-05-2013, 03:43 PM
I suppose the US needs to hire some European women who aren't scared...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXtAA8Djr_o


What's with the baby stroller?

Seraphim
01-05-2013, 03:43 PM
Yes but there were people who wanted to VOLUNTARILY HELP.

If a man is in the process of dying and YOU attempt to save him, possibly killing youself in the process, WHO THE FUCK AM I TO STOP YOU?

That's the real piss off...If the FF's didn't want to risk their own necks and made a logic based call...FINE...but to STOP men/women who were WILLING to help...UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE.



Well, logically, they may have made the right call. If the ice was just too thin, their vain attempts could very well have gotten more people drowned. It makes sense that they would not want passerby's running in trying to help, and then falling in themselves.

However, emotionally, it seems like they should have at least tried SOMETHING, even if it has little hope of working.

Everyone has their own threshold for danger and risk to their safety. But there is a fine line between bravery and foolishness.

torchbearer
01-05-2013, 03:44 PM
here is the story of a deer rescue: http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/metro-west/12009501577295/deer-rescued-from-thin-ice-had-to-be-euthanized/
lots of risk and treasure was spent to rescue an animal they later had to euthanize. they probably didn't even have the decency to donate the meat to a soup kitchen or something.

nobody's_hero
01-05-2013, 03:49 PM
Well, logically, they may have made the right call. If the ice was just too thin, their vain attempts could very well have gotten more people drowned. It makes sense that they would not want passerby's running in trying to help, and then falling in themselves.

However, emotionally, it seems like they should have at least tried SOMETHING, even if it has little hope of working.

Everyone has their own threshold for danger and risk to their safety. But there is a fine line between bravery and foolishness.

I was a volunteer firefighter and I can tell you that insulated wetsuits are not standard gear on a fire truck. For those firefighters to try to jump in and save him would have been about as successful as any one of the bystanders in regular clothing to have attempted a rescue. Should they have let someone else go in and risk their butts if they wanted to? Sure, as long as that person didn't expect to be rescued if they fell in as well. But, liability and the lawyers being what they are these days, I'm almost certain the first responders would have been sued for not 'securing the scene' if someone else had been hurt or died.

I'm glad you seem to understand. Every class I took at the fire department started with the premise that if you cannot save the victim, do not create more victims by becoming one yourself.

puppetmaster
01-05-2013, 03:50 PM
Well, logically, they may have made the right call. If the ice was just too thin, their vain attempts could very well have gotten more people drowned. It makes sense that they would not want passerby's running in trying to help, and then falling in themselves.

However, emotionally, it seems like they should have at least tried SOMETHING, even if it has little hope of working.

Everyone has their own threshold for danger and risk to their safety. But there is a fine line between bravery and foolishness. There was a time back when I was a cop, I was chasing a shoplifter (stole a pair of bluejeans). The guy ran like a a gazelle. I kept up with him for a long time until he ran across a busy 6 lane freeway. I said screw it, and let him go, because my life is not worth a $40 pair of jeans. If he had been a murderer it would have been a different story. There are plenty of guys that would have kept chasing, and just as many that wouldn't have even tried to catch him (lots of fat, slow cops) but that's their choice to make.

They made the wrong call regardless of ice thickness. I have seen rescues with identical circumstances and this man could have been saved. I too was a police officer and your comparison is not even close to the same event.
Being located in Illinois would make it seem like proper ice rescue training would be standard procedure.
I was trained in these types of rescues living in Alaska and looking at the video, it shows that a rescue would have been possible or at least attempted.

angelatc
01-05-2013, 03:50 PM
Well, logically, they may have made the right call. If the ice was just too thin, their vain attempts could very well have gotten more people drowned. It makes sense that they would not want passerby's running in trying to help, and then falling in themselves.

However, emotionally, it seems like they should have at least tried SOMETHING, even if it has little hope of working.

Everyone has their own threshold for danger and risk to their safety. But there is a fine line between bravery and foolishness. There was a time back when I was a cop, I was chasing a shoplifter (stole a pair of bluejeans). The guy ran like a a gazelle. I kept up with him for a long time until he ran across a busy 6 lane freeway. I said screw it, and let him go, because my life is not worth a $40 pair of jeans. If he had been a murderer it would have been a different story. There are plenty of guys that would have kept chasing, and just as many that wouldn't have even tried to catch him (lots of fat, slow cops) but that's their choice to make.

Maybe that's true, but how do you justify the police stopping mundanes from making the right choice?

CaptainAmerica
01-05-2013, 03:52 PM
I was a volunteer firefighter and I can tell you that insulated wetsuits are not standard gear on a fire truck. For those firefighters to try to jump in and save him would have been about as successful as any one of the bystanders in regular clothing to have attempted a rescue. Should they have let someone else go in and risk their butts if they wanted to? Sure, as long as that person didn't expect to be rescued if they fell in as well. But, liability and the lawyers being what they are these days, I'm almost certain the first responders would have been sued for not 'securing the scene' if someone else had been hurt or died.

I'm glad you seem to understand. Every class I took at the fire department started with the premise that if you cannot save the victim, do not create more victims by becoming one yourself. and no one had a rope? It seems to me they were all too afraid or too busy filming to do anything

Anti Federalist
01-05-2013, 03:53 PM
Well, logically, they may have made the right call.

That's the problem...

Almost all of what we hold precious, every value that we as, for want of a better term, "freedom folks" hold dear, is illogical when approached from a "safety first" mindset.

Liberty is messy and dangerous at times.

Totalitarianism is "safe".

Which is why Safety Uber Alles has been so relentlessly propagandized and sadly, accepted wholesale.

CaptainAmerica
01-05-2013, 03:54 PM
http://www.durawear.com/images/catalog/live/imageLibrary/B27D25D61517585314FF6E419CC693F2M.jpg + http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DDGcUmoHL._SL500_SS500_.jpg Im sure there was some of this laying around somewhere in one of those trucks,or something similar

green73
01-05-2013, 03:54 PM
Flashback
Police and Firemen Rescuers Look On As California Man Drowns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsm8bRtOm14

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 03:58 PM
I was a volunteer firefighter and I can tell you that insulated wetsuits are not standard gear on a fire truck. For those firefighters to try to jump in and save him would have been about as successful as any one of the bystanders in regular clothing to have attempted a rescue. Should they have let someone else go in and risk their butts if they wanted to? Sure, as long as that person didn't expect to be rescued if they fell in as well. But, liability and the lawyers being what they are these days, I'm almost certain the first responders would have been sued for not 'securing the scene' if someone else had been hurt or died.

I'm glad you seem to understand. Every class I took at the fire department started with the premise that if you cannot save the victim, do not create more victims by becoming one yourself.

No wet suit needed. It would have taken less then 10 minutes for someone to have swum in with a lifeline. Around themselves and one to throw to him.

It was not like they were in the wilderness. Heat was immediately available after recovery.

nobody's_hero
01-05-2013, 04:02 PM
Maybe that's true, but how do you justify the police stopping mundanes from making the right choice?

30 years ago they could have, but in this day and age they'd have had to print legal waivers for people to sign before venturing out on to the ice. It's sickening, but look at how quick people were to assign responsibility of the victim's life to the firefighters.

WTF was he doing out on the ice to begin with?

You know reading some of these comments sounds like? A sense of f*cking entitlement.

The guy was responsible for his own situation and here on this forum we've got an overwhelming number of critics who seem to have forgotten that, and just expect someone else to come bail them out of a tough situation. This is why Lew Rockwell gets on my nerves sometimes. I didn't know it was possible, but he tends to be so libertarian he ends up somehow coming full circle and then isn't anymore, lol. Expecting someone else to rush in and save you from your mistakes sounds more like liberalism.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 04:05 PM
Expecting someone else to rush in and save you from your mistakes sounds more like liberalism.

However, expecting someone you PAY to rush in and save you is a different animal entirely.

torchbearer
01-05-2013, 04:06 PM
30 years ago they could have, but in this day and age they'd have had to print legal waivers for people to sign before venturing out on to the ice. It's sickening, but look at how quick people were to assign responsibility of the victims life to the firefighters.

WTF was he doing out on the ice to begin with?

You know reading some of these comments sounds like? A sense of f*cking entitlement.

The guy was responsible for his own situation and here on this forum we've got an overwhelming number of critics who seem to have forgotten that, and just expect someone else to come bail them out of a tough situation. This is why Lew Rockwell gets on my nerves sometimes. I didn't know it was possible, but he tends to be so libertarian he ends up somehow coming full circle and then isn't anymore, lol. Expecting someone else to rush in and save you from your mistakes sounds more like liberalism.

i thought Lew's point is, "we"(used losely) give the responsibility to these government agencies and then don't feel like we have to do those things.
for instance, welfare. why give to charity when the poor is taken care of by welfare checks?
why rescue someone when we pay first responders.
Then, like in Katrina, when it comes time for the government agency to earn its pay, it fails to perform.
amirite?

puppetmaster
01-05-2013, 04:07 PM
As long as they get to ride around in parades and pretend they are heros than they should act like heros.

puppetmaster
01-05-2013, 04:09 PM
i thought Lew's point is, "we"(used losely) give the responsibility to these government agencies and then don't feel like we have to do those things.
for instance, welfare. why give to charity when the poor is taken care of by welfare checks?
why rescue someone when we pay first responders.
Then, like in Katrina, when it comes time for the government agency to earn its pay, it fails to perform.
amirite?

+++++

tod evans
01-05-2013, 04:09 PM
The guy was responsible for his own situation and here on this forum we've got an overwhelming number of critics who seem to have forgotten that, and just expect someone else to come bail them out of a tough situation.

Rescue workers hire on to rescue people.

If this group is too cowardly to rescue a citizen in distress then the other citizens should be able to fire them and hire some who aren't scared.

Hell man I'm old, bald and smoke and I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and save somebody from drowning, it's how a person is supposed to react when they've been raised right.

Anti Federalist
01-05-2013, 04:10 PM
Brother I got nothing but respect for you, and your points about legal liability are valid.

But for me, this isn't about politics, or what somebody should or should not have done to get in the jam they are in.

If there was a man dying a gruesome death, right before my eyes. I'll by God try to help.

Lew's point is that, once again, this massive government establishment has failed in it's core duty, the one we are always confronted with when we talk of cutting back government spending and taxation: "Who's going to pay for the heroic cops and firemen....bahhhhh?"


30 years ago they could have, but in this day and age they'd have had to print legal waivers for people to sign before venturing out on to the ice. It's sickening, but look at how quick people were to assign responsibility of the victim's life to the firefighters.

WTF was he doing out on the ice to begin with?

You know reading some of these comments sounds like? A sense of f*cking entitlement.

The guy was responsible for his own situation and here on this forum we've got an overwhelming number of critics who seem to have forgotten that, and just expect someone else to come bail them out of a tough situation. This is why Lew Rockwell gets on my nerves sometimes. I didn't know it was possible, but he tends to be so libertarian he ends up somehow coming full circle and then isn't anymore, lol. Expecting someone else to rush in and save you from your mistakes sounds more like liberalism.

Lucille
01-05-2013, 04:10 PM
They made the wrong call regardless of ice thickness. I have seen rescues with identical circumstances and this man could have been saved. I too was a police officer and your comparison is not even close to the same event.
Being located in Illinois would make it seem like proper ice rescue training would be standard procedure.
I was trained in these types of rescues living in Alaska and looking at the video, it shows that a rescue would have been possible or at least attempted.

You'd think! Weird how they only called in the dive team after he went under. People who were there are commenting:

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-01-02/man-dies-after-falling-through-ice-retention-pond-while-runni

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-01-03/authorities-detail-rescue-efforts-man-who-fell-through-iced-o

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/courts-police-and-fire/2013-01-03/autopsy-indicates-man-rescued-frozen-pond-died-drowning.html


Brother I got nothing but respect for you, and your points about legal liability are valid.

But for me, this isn't about politics, or what somebody should or should not have done to get in the jam they are in.

If there was a man dying a gruesome death, right before my eyes. I'll by God try to help.

Lew's point is that, once again, this massive government establishment has failed in it's core duty, the one we are always confronted with when we talk of cutting back government spending and taxation: "Who's going to pay for the heroic cops and firemen....bahhhhh?"

I would have tried too. I don't know how those guys sleep at night, watching a guy drown when they could have saved him.

nobody's_hero
01-05-2013, 04:11 PM
However, expecting someone you PAY to rush in and save you is a different animal entirely.

Maybe. I wasn't paid but, had I been, I don't think it would have made me immortal or something, lol.

But I didn't mean to interrupt the arm-chair quarterbacking. Carry on.

Anti Federalist
01-05-2013, 04:12 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tod evans again.


Rescue workers hire on to rescue people.

If this group is too cowardly to rescue a citizen in distress then the other citizens should be able to fire them and hire some who aren't scared.

Hell man I'm old, bald and smoke and I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and save somebody from drowning, it's how a person is supposed to react when they've been raised right.

torchbearer
01-05-2013, 04:15 PM
then imagine this situation if there were no first responders in that area.
how would this scenario end?

nobody's_hero
01-05-2013, 04:16 PM
then imagine this situation if there were no first responders in that area.
how would this scenario end?

30 people rushing out onto thin ice and a mass casualty incident? Who knows.

Danke
01-05-2013, 04:17 PM
30 years ago they could have, but in this day and age they'd have had to print legal waivers for people to sign before venturing out on to the ice. It's sickening, but look at how quick people were to assign responsibility of the victim's life to the firefighters.

WTF was he doing out on the ice to begin with?

You know reading some of these comments sounds like? A sense of f*cking entitlement.

The guy was responsible for his own situation and here on this forum we've got an overwhelming number of critics who seem to have forgotten that, and just expect someone else to come bail them out of a tough situation. This is why Lew Rockwell gets on my nerves sometimes. I didn't know it was possible, but he tends to be so libertarian he ends up somehow coming full circle and then isn't anymore, lol. Expecting someone else to rush in and save you from your mistakes sounds more like liberalism.

Firefighters shouldn't be expected to put out fires either, they could get hurt, and it was probably someone's negligence that caused the fire.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 04:17 PM
Maybe. I wasn't paid but, had I been, I don't think it would have made me immortal or something, lol.

But I didn't mean to interrupt the arm-chair quarterbacking. Carry on.

Oh Christ! Not with the "arm chair quarterback" rhetoric already.

Ender
01-05-2013, 04:18 PM
Rescue workers hire on to rescue people.

If this group is too cowardly to rescue a citizen in distress then the other citizens should be able to fire them and hire some who aren't scared.

Hell man I'm old, bald and smoke and I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and save somebody from drowning, it's how a person is supposed to react when they've been raised right.

Amen, Bro!

And I'd be right beside you.

It was Cain who said "Am I my brother's keeper?"; the Good Samaritan took care of someone without any flag waving or paycheck. I'll take the Samaritan role anytime it is necessary.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 04:19 PM
Firefighters shouldn't be expected to put out fires either, they could get hurt, and it was probably someone's negligence that caused the fire.

And cops don't need to protect citizens that live in "bad" neighborhoods.

torchbearer
01-05-2013, 04:19 PM
30 people rushing out onto thin ice and a mass casualty incident? Who knows. you mean, there may have been an attempt to save?

Danke
01-05-2013, 04:24 PM
Oh Christ! Not with the "arm chair quarterback" rhetoric already.

That reminds me, Vikings vs. Packers tonight!!

ivflight
01-05-2013, 04:28 PM
This is really disturbing.

torchbearer
01-05-2013, 04:31 PM
That reminds me, Vikings vs. Packers tonight!!

hey look! elvis!

nobody's_hero
01-05-2013, 04:33 PM
Firefighters shouldn't be expected to put out fires either, they could get hurt, and it was probably someone's negligence that caused the fire.

We fight fires. We also assess risks.

We also have community awareness programs and teach kids about fire safety and prevention, because the best fire I've ever been to is one that doesn't exist. But, I guess we need to start having education programs for idiots who think it's a good idea to venture out onto the middle of a frozen pond with their own two legs. Or people who don't realize that coffee is . . . hot. Or people who use a sperm donor to have a child, and then turn around and sue the donor's ass for child-support.

At some point, you realize that not every situation that calls for drastic action is a result of an accident, or negligence. Some folks are just idiots who always expect someone else to bail them out.

seapilot
01-05-2013, 04:33 PM
All firemen and police are not the same. Unfortunately there were too many by the book and not many into doing something immediately to save that poor guy that drowned. A big fail by those rescue workers on that day. Here is an individual that those in Illinois could learn something from.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6R01Piyhgk

nobody's_hero
01-05-2013, 04:36 PM
All firemen and police are not the same. Unfortunately there were too many by the book and not many into doing something immediately to save that poor guy that drowned. A big fail by those rescue workers on that day. Here is an individual that those in Illinois could learn something from.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6R01Piyhgk

Pause the video at 0:38. How many victims do you see? How many were there before?

That cop is not a hero. He's a fool. Here's the money quote:

"They swam to this floating device right here, and they just . . . held on until the fire department came."

I doubt you'll get him to admit that he had to be saved himself, though.

Lucille
01-05-2013, 04:37 PM
This is really disturbing.

I can offer a bit more information that will make it more disturbing, as I drive by that pond a few times a week. The rescue workers in the at video are standing right at the edge of a Menards parking lot. A 20 second sprint would put you in aisles full of rope and any other hardware you might need to complete the rescue. They even have a hunting section and, I might guess, inflatable rafts. In the amount of time they spent letting that guy die, I could have run to the store and built a small raft. Or I could have gotten back to the pond with a couple sheets of plywood to spread my weight on the ice. They even have 36ft wood beams in the yard. There are a hundred ways individuals could have fixed this if allowed to. Wish I was there...

One cop did run in for rope before the FD arrived. I was thinking one longass rope, two guys on either side of the lake sliding it across the ice until you reach him.


Gallo said before firefighters arrived, the officers were talking to him, trying to get him to get his body on the ice. An officer went in Menards to get rope, and by the time he emerged, firefighters were there.

Demigod
01-05-2013, 04:43 PM
Just watched the video.He was like 10 meters the MOST from the northern shore.If the Ice was too tick they could have sent people 2 by 2 to brake the ice until 2 guys could swim to him and take him out.Sitting around the shore,having a picnic is not fucking acceptable.I don't care if the police put a gun to their head, he is like there you could hit him with a snowball at least pretend you are trying to help him.

Pauls' Revere
01-05-2013, 05:02 PM
Why the hell was the guy on the ice of a frozen pond at a mall in the first place?

torchbearer
01-05-2013, 05:05 PM
Why the hell was the guy on the ice of a frozen pond at a mall in the first place?

like a mystery shopper, he was hired by a local insurance group to test the first responders of the area.
they hadn't planned on there being no rescue. though the FD did get high marks for response time... the follow-through was lacking.

osan
01-05-2013, 05:06 PM
All Hail the 1st Responders
The first to respond when it comes to cashing their huge checks ripped off from the people, that is. Rescuing (http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/04/illinois-firefighters-stand-idle-while-man-drowns/) a drowning man is something different for these uniformed demigods.


Onlookers demanded firefighters rescue the man, and even volunteered for the task, but were told by the Champaign police to stay away.

I must confess the difficulty I am having responding to this in a semi-adult voice.

I would have told the police to fuck themselves, and I would have used those precise words. The disgust and contempt with which I hold police is eclipsed only by that for the ilk of those stoopid drones in Ill-Annoy who chose to obey so conveniently such that they could sit idly by and whine about the fact that the poor bastard was drowning and nobody was acting.

BlackTerrel
01-05-2013, 05:07 PM
We're always quick to criticize but hard to know without being there. From the same article:


The professionals’ caution contrasted with a rushed Dec. 30 rescue of a man who fell into ice near a sledding site in California. Numerous sledders rushed to the man’s aid, only to also fall through the thin ice. They all escaped the ice when inflatable sleds where thrown into the icy water.

Certainly others jumping in may have made things worse.

Danke
01-05-2013, 05:10 PM
Why the hell was the guy on the ice of a frozen pond at a mall in the first place?

Every year people venture out on ice that turns out to be too thin.

BSU kid
01-05-2013, 05:13 PM
Apparently the guy might have been mentally unstable, and was causing a disturbance before the pond incident. Still no Excuse.

More bad press for Illinois.

Demigod
01-05-2013, 05:18 PM
Once again, the general public believes they are experts on everything. I'm a firefighter, and these guys did everything right. ALWAYS follow your training, ALWAYS act according to procedure, NEVER risk lives for lives that cannot be saved. Do you really think the rescuers were just standing around having a good time while this guy died? Of course not. All you people saying "somebody should have just jumped in after him!" You know what would have happened? They would have become hypothermic in a matter of seconds, gone into shock, and made the rescue that much more complicated for the first responders. And to all you people out there talking s**t, why don't you do what we do for just one day, then maybe your expert opinion will matter.

From the article.So when you pay firefighters and police officers to save and protect people they can pick and choose whether it is safe for them to do their job or if it would accomplish something ( by their standards ),while if you are a soldier and you are told to invade a country a few thousand km away and do patrols there while being attacked from all sides then you have to do it because it is your DUTY and it is what you are paid to do.

The army should really form a union.

And if three grown man who have dedicated their life's to train to save people can not save a man drowning in a lake behind a mall 10 meters from the shore,well you really suck at your jobs.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 05:29 PM
From the article.So when you pay firefighters and police officers to save and protect people they can pick and choose whether it is safe for them to do their job or if it would accomplish something ( by their standards ),while if you are a soldier and you are told to invade a country a few thousand km away and do patrols there while being attacked from all sides then you have to do it because it is your DUTY and it is what you are paid to do.

The army should really form a union.

And if tree grown man who have dedicated their life's to train to save people can not save a man drowning in a lake behind a mall 10 meters from the shore,well you really suck at your jobs.

+rep

Icymudpuppy
01-05-2013, 05:35 PM
Simple. Every day I carry a 100ft rope in my work truck, and a spare set of clothes. I would have tied one end off on a drain grate or maybe had some big guy tie it to his waist, Tied the other end to my waist, and shimmied my way out. When I get to the guy, say "Hold on to me" while I hand over hand it back to shore. I wouldn't consider it heroic at all. Fairly mundane actually. Change into dry clothes, grab a cup of hot beverage at that McDonald's I see across the street, and back to work.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 05:40 PM
Simple. Every day I carry a 100ft rope in my work truck, and a spare set of clothes. I would have tied one end off on a drain grate or maybe had some big guy tie it to his waist, Tied the other end to my waist, and shimmied my way out. When I get to the guy, say "Hold on to me" while I hand over hand it back to shore. I wouldn't consider it heroic at all. Fairly mundane actually. Change into dry clothes, grab a cup of hot beverage at that McDonald's I see across the street, and back to work.

You'd be arrested, and knowing you tazed and thugscrummed, before you got to the shoreline. In today's society.

angelatc
01-05-2013, 05:48 PM
Firefighters shouldn't be expected to put out fires either, they could get hurt, and it was probably someone's negligence that caused the fire.

Public sector unions: Getting hazardous duty pay for employees with hazardous jobs, while keeping them out of hazardous situations.

angelatc
01-05-2013, 05:51 PM
At some point, you realize that not every situation that calls for drastic action is a result of an accident, or negligence. Some folks are just idiots who always expect someone else to bail them out.

It's America. And people are people. Lots of us are idiots, or at least do idiotic things on occasion. You guys get paid to deal with that. Nothing more.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
01-05-2013, 07:15 PM
WTF was he doing out on the ice to begin with?

You know reading some of these comments sounds like? A sense of f*cking entitlement.

The guy was responsible for his own situation and here on this forum we've got an overwhelming number of critics who seem to have forgotten that, and just expect someone else to come bail them out of a tough situation. This is why Lew Rockwell gets on my nerves sometimes. I didn't know it was possible, but he tends to be so libertarian he ends up somehow coming full circle and then isn't anymore, lol. Expecting someone else to rush in and save you from your mistakes sounds more like liberalism.


If I thought I could save someone, I wouldn't presume I should give them an intelligence test first. I may question their intelligence later, but not beforehand. That's not the time for that.

Qdog
01-05-2013, 08:20 PM
Brother I got nothing but respect for you, and your points about legal liability are valid.

But for me, this isn't about politics, or what somebody should or should not have done to get in the jam they are in.

If there was a man dying a gruesome death, right before my eyes. I'll by God try to help.

Lew's point is that, once again, this massive government establishment has failed in it's core duty, the one we are always confronted with when we talk of cutting back government spending and taxation: "Who's going to pay for the heroic cops and firemen....bahhhhh?"

I have a lot of respect for you too AF. And I cant say that in the heat of the moment I wouldn't have rushed in and tried to do something to get him out as you would have. But, Im afraid that if that were the case they very well would have been fishing my 240 lb body out of that lake along with his.

I think the major problem in this case is that no one had the balls to step up and take leadership. Getting that guy out of there was not a 1 person job. They needed a leader there to step up and say, "hey you guys, link arms and hold onto this end of the fire hose, while this little guy crawls out there on his belly with the other end." Or some other plan. But if somebody goes out there and tries to lone wolf it, they most likely are going to end up with 2 people in the water.

On the other hand, whoever was in charge of that scene had a tough job. It is "heroic" to be the one that goes out there and saves him, but what about the fat aging supervisor who tells the rookie he is the one that gets to be the hero today?

AGRP
01-05-2013, 08:41 PM
Stop being so judgmental. How on earth can we expect first responders in Illinois to be prepared for winter? To rescue people stuck in frozen bodies of water? That never happens.

seyferjm
01-05-2013, 09:07 PM
Public sector unions: Getting hazardous duty pay for employees with hazardous jobs, while keeping them out of hazardous situations.

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so true.

pcosmar
01-05-2013, 09:12 PM
The fire Dept had no ladders? (and go across the same ice that the guy walked out on)

Seems they were too intent on using the new and improved wrong tool for the job.

:(

Anti Federalist
01-05-2013, 09:24 PM
Simple. Every day I carry a 100ft rope in my work truck, and a spare set of clothes. I would have tied one end off on a drain grate or maybe had some big guy tie it to his waist, Tied the other end to my waist, and shimmied my way out. When I get to the guy, say "Hold on to me" while I hand over hand it back to shore. I wouldn't consider it heroic at all. Fairly mundane actually. Change into dry clothes, grab a cup of hot beverage at that McDonald's I see across the street, and back to work.

Your "big guy" just stepped up to hold on to that line and haul your asses back.

And buy the coffee.

Free men.

Tod
01-05-2013, 09:42 PM
Assuming the guy in the water got there by walking out on the ice (how stupid do you have to be to do that?) why should anyone feel obligated to risk their own lives to save him after the public has denied funding for the responding fire fighters to have appropriate ice rescue equipment on hand*?

The gene pool average IQ has gone up slightly after this event.


*that is assuming they had to wait for someone to bring equipment from another department. If the delay was caused because some idiot deciding that it was acceptable to have equipment that required inflating manually, then that is another issue.

AGRP
01-05-2013, 09:52 PM
Assuming the guy in the water got there by walking out on the ice (how stupid do you have to be to do that?) why should anyone feel obligated to risk their own lives to save him after the public has denied funding for the responding fire fighters to have appropriate ice rescue equipment on hand*?

The gene pool average IQ has gone up slightly after this event.


*that is assuming they had to wait for someone to bring equipment from another department. If the delay was caused because some idiot deciding that it was acceptable to have equipment that required inflating manually, then that is another issue.

I agree. We cant expect first responders in the the midwest and great lakes region to be prepared to rescue people in frozen lakes during the winter. That would be like expecting life guards in hawaii to be prepared to rescue swimmers and surfers. These are totally unreasonable expectations and the guy deserved to die.

ivflight
01-05-2013, 10:30 PM
There are more than a dozen such ponds within 2500ft of the one in the video, and new subdivisions in the same area have been opening up every year for the last 7. Chambana is essentially a drained swamp and every time an area is developed they have to work in some water storage. All these subdivisions have plenty of kids and rescuers should have been well-trained for this type of emergency.

This is also a university town which means lots of young people and lots of political contention. The fact that this happened when a lot of students are gone won't help, but I expect there will be some backlash over this.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 10:34 PM
The fire Dept had no ladders? (and go across the same ice that the guy walked out on)

Seems they were too intent on using the new and improved wrong tool for the job.

:(

They must not have gotten to that chapter in their "How to be a good cadet" handbook. Critical thinking is discouraged. The important criteria with government is either to become immobilized with action or to negate it with extreme prejudice. It truly is fight or flight with the government.

AGRP
01-05-2013, 11:10 PM
They must not have gotten to that chapter in their "How to be a good cadet" handbook. Critical thinking is discouraged. The important criteria with government is either to become immobilized with action or to negate it with extreme prejudice. It truly is fight or flight with the government.

They use ladders all the time and it gets boring after a while. Using a ladder isnt fun compared to an inflatable yellow boat.

FrancisMarion
01-05-2013, 11:35 PM
This is really disturbing.

I can offer a bit more information that will make it more disturbing, as I drive by that pond a few times a week. The rescue workers in the at video are standing right at the edge of a Menards parking lot. A 20 second sprint would put you in aisles full of rope and any other hardware you might need to complete the rescue. They even have a hunting section and, I might guess, inflatable rafts. In the amount of time they spent letting that guy die, I could have run to the store and built a small raft. Or I could have gotten back to the pond with a couple sheets of plywood to spread my weight on the ice. They even have 36ft wood beams in the yard. There are a hundred ways individuals could have fixed this if allowed to. Wish I was there...

36' beams require teamwork. I guess they will continue to sit in the yard.

Sad story on so many levels.

phill4paul
01-05-2013, 11:40 PM
They use ladders all the time and it gets boring after a while. Using a ladder isnt fun compared to an inflatable yellow boat.

Oh. fuck yeah. Pretty, gleaming, shiny for the win!

bolil
01-05-2013, 11:50 PM
I don't suppose they could've ventured to the near shore and tossed one of these out.
http://www.tamgroup.com.eg/images/i_want_to_buy_life_buoy(4).jpg

I am a plumber in illinois, I would have helped this man. What the fuck. Just watch em die. So many ways this guy could have been saved. Ridiculous hero wannabe pricks. I risked my neck roofing more than these fire fighting ********************************************8 ************** ******* *


They made a big deal about that train shit, how bout this? Huh? Didn't even need a rope... coulda tied freaking jackets together.

oyarde
01-06-2013, 12:08 AM
Well reading all of this really brings home the fact to me that this is not the same world I grew up in .... the other one was better ...

phill4paul
01-06-2013, 12:13 AM
Well reading all of this really brings home the fact to me that this is not the same world I grew up in .... the other one was better ...

Strange. Isn't it? To wake up in a world of mal-compassionate retards?

bolil
01-06-2013, 12:18 AM
They should all be fired, the entire department. Let them find work in the private sector where they can maybe excuse the gross incompetence. Ill put em on... removing filled up unsanitized ejector pits. Ill even let them wear their fire hats on the job. Smokejumpers go into forest fires without the pansy assed "precautions" of these clowns. To save trees, much less a man. To bad their were no military personnel on site. They woulda got his ass out.

AGRP
01-06-2013, 12:23 AM
Well reading all of this really brings home the fact to me that this is not the same world I grew up in .... the other one was better ...

Sorry to break it to you, but its always been this way. Its just that the world got a lot smaller with the advent of the internet.

phill4paul
01-06-2013, 12:24 AM
They should all be fired, the entire department. Let them find work in the private sector where they can maybe excuse the gross incompetence. Ill put em on... removing filled up unsanitized ejector pits. Ill even let them wear their fire hats on the job. Smokejumpers go into forest fires without the pansy assed "precautions" of these clowns. To save trees, much less a man. To bad their were no military personnel on site. They woulda got his ass out.

Yup. The citizens of the town should spit on the fucks in the uniforms everyday to show discontent. Of course they would be arrested for doing do.

bolil
01-06-2013, 12:27 AM
I think this video put me over the edge. thats it. The pigs on site were probably looking around for a dog to toss in the pond and then shoot. In lieu of a dog, they coulda just shot the man drowning. Them flailing arms looked like threats! Firefighters are one bench press and porno removed from welfare.

TheTexan
01-06-2013, 12:29 AM
This would have been a much better story if one of the people went and actually did something while the firefighters and cops just stood there

psi2941
01-06-2013, 12:31 AM
everyone is so quick to bash them. yet no one stops to think, wtf was he doing ont he ice in the first place?

bolil
01-06-2013, 12:38 AM
everyone is so quick to bash them. yet no one stops to think, wtf was he doing ont he ice in the first place?

IT DON"T MATTER. Not even a little bit. There are easier ways to kill oneself, so I think that wasn't a motive. Maybe he was drunk. Maybe he was stoned. Maybe he was sad. Does not matter. Fire Flighters are paid to rescue, and they watched him drown. Oh, sure, the boat, brilliant tactic launching from the far shore... umm. what the fuh?. That is why I am pissed. And allegedly the pigs on scene threatened private attempts at rescue with arrest. I feel that man did not have to die, he was allowed to die. He could have been saved, and wasn't screw that. Screw them. Screw.

phill4paul
01-06-2013, 12:39 AM
everyone is so quick to bash them. yet no one stops to think, wtf was he doing ont he ice in the first place?

WTF does it matter? They were paid to provide a service and failed. Simple enough.

psi2941
01-06-2013, 01:02 AM
"FIRE FIGHTER" implies their paid to fight fires. Not to save dumb asses doing dumb stuff. He should have know the risk of walking onto the ice and should have had an emergency plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P531IaBGRHU

bolil
01-06-2013, 01:11 AM
"FIRE FIGHTER" implies their paid to fight fires. Not to save dumb asses doing dumb stuff. He should have know the risk of walking onto the ice and should have had an emergency plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P531IaBGRHU

ITS A HUMAN THING. Drowning human in the cold, 20-30 ft from shore? What do you do? Wait 30 min and deploy a fuckin raft? Or, take the rope out of your tricked out, and evidently useless fucking truck and throw it too the man. Or, as I would have done, tied one end to a vehicle, the other to my waste, and another to lasso/Hesecure drowning man with. would I have gone hypothermic? Yeah, but the 30 seconds it would take me to get to the man and another 15-20 getting dragged out would not be enough time, unless we are talking -50 or less, to do any permanent damage. Blame who you want, if the man was irrational going out on the ice the fire flighters were retarded in their chosen method of rescue. PERIOD. PERIOD>

jcannon98188
01-06-2013, 01:14 AM
"FIRE FIGHTER" implies their paid to fight fires. Not to save dumb asses doing dumb stuff. He should have know the risk of walking onto the ice and should have had an emergency plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P531IaBGRHU

Charge them for the crap. Fine. But going in there to save someone would have not taken any money what so ever.

bolil
01-06-2013, 01:17 AM
Charge them WITH negligent manslaughter. You likey the state? Enjoy how it rides us for your benifeit? I hope you've appropriated a nice saddle for yourself.

addressed to rationalizing apologist. You know who you are.

AGRP
01-06-2013, 01:23 AM
everyone is so quick to bash them. yet no one stops to think, wtf was he doing ont he ice in the first place?

Playing ice hockey? Tiddlywinks? Going through a traumatic event? Maybe a relative or beloved pet died and he wasnt thinking rationally? Should they have asked so they could decide if his life was worth saving?

Pauls' Revere
01-06-2013, 01:30 AM
like a mystery shopper, he was hired by a local insurance group to test the first responders of the area.
they hadn't planned on there being no rescue. though the FD did get high marks for response time... the follow-through was lacking.

I'm sure they set up a committee to review policy to make further changes to it to include ice rescue.

bolil
01-06-2013, 01:30 AM
Everyone else is being nice, maybe I am just a nasty person but I would like to throw every public servant on the scene that day, parent or not, into lake Michigan and simply video tape what happens. Maybe even coat them in whatever asian carp like to eat so they don't clog up the water pumps.

Tpoints
01-06-2013, 01:33 AM
how can anybody complain if they were not there? Ok, so somebody responded and arrived and did nothing, what about the other people? Were they stopped from or not allowed to jump in?

Ender
01-06-2013, 01:33 AM
"FIRE FIGHTER" implies their paid to fight fires. Not to save dumb asses doing dumb stuff. He should have know the risk of walking onto the ice and should have had an emergency plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P531IaBGRHU

Let us pray that YOU never do anything dumb in your life, 'cause karma's a bitch. :(

jcannon98188
01-06-2013, 01:35 AM
Playing ice hockey? Tiddlywinks? Going through a traumatic event? Maybe a relative or beloved pet died and he wasnt thinking rationally? Should they have asked so they could decide if his life was worth saving?
What if it was an elderly person who was confused? Should we just let them die as well? What if it was a small child, or someone who was not mentally sane. What if somthing scared him onto the ice. What if he dropped something important to him that he was trying to retrieve? What if it was you or someone you loved on the ice? If we are going to trust the government to save us, then they better do their job!

(this isn't pointed to AGRP, I was simply continuing what he had to say)

bolil
01-06-2013, 01:36 AM
how can anybody complain if they were not there? Ok, so somebody responded and arrived and did nothing, what about the other people? Were they stopped from or not allowed to jump in?

Watch the video.

QuickZ06
01-06-2013, 01:40 AM
how can anybody complain if they were not there? Ok, so somebody responded and arrived and did nothing, what about the other people? Were they stopped from or not allowed to jump in?

How can someone complain about "complainers" when they have yet to watch the video and read the article?

nobody's_hero
01-06-2013, 07:50 AM
It's America. And people are people. Lots of us are idiots, or at least do idiotic things on occasion. You guys get paid to deal with that. Nothing more.

Well I didn't. I was a volunteer. But really pay doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you are mortal, lol.

Vol. Firefighters go through the same risk-assessment training that paid departments do (at least where I'm from). We don't have death wishes just because we do it for free. And paid departments don't get issued death warrants just because they're paid.

I would encourage everyone who is a critic (or not a critic) to try to find a volunteer fire department and join up. It was a great experience for me.

But I have to warn you that you will encounter situations where you make mistakes, your plans fail, maybe even situations where you can't do anything (like watching a guy burn up in a fuel tanker fire, because the cab and trailer of his semi-truck is fully involved and burns so hot that liquid evaporates before it even hits the fire). And there are even times when you have to clean up your gear at a scene admidts the mumbles and hisses of bystanders who always think they could do a better job.

Heck. I distinctly recall one incident where we saved an old couple's back-yard garage, and then got complaints from them because our rig left 8-inch-deep treadmarks in their lawn. Fun times.

psi2941
01-06-2013, 08:04 AM
Let us pray that YOU never do anything dumb in your life, 'cause karma's a bitch. :(
1. As a hockey player who played for 13+ years I would never go into any pond/lake ice. They have ice rinks for a reason its only like 4-5 dollars to skate. If you can't afford that you shouldn't be skating at all. 2. I wouldn't expect the fire department to have a boat on their fire truck. To me, 1 hour is perfectly reasonable, how is a fire department who preps to fight fire going need have a boat ready? Your right i might do something dumb down the line that should be my fault not some other guy.

This whole thread, everyone is quick to jump on the band wagon and blame the government. But what happen to personal responsibility? its like blaming guns for the mass murders.

osan
01-06-2013, 08:20 AM
Simple. Every day I carry a 100ft rope in my work truck, and a spare set of clothes. I would have tied one end off on a drain grate or maybe had some big guy tie it to his waist, Tied the other end to my waist, and shimmied my way out. When I get to the guy, say "Hold on to me" while I hand over hand it back to shore. I wouldn't consider it heroic at all. Fairly mundane actually. Change into dry clothes, grab a cup of hot beverage at that McDonald's I see across the street, and back to work.

Yes, but then you would have made the "pros" look bad and would have been charged with interfering. Local opinion of you as a hero would have meant nothing and "government" would have then proceeded to teach you a bitter lesson in the production of redundant anuses.

This nation is SO loused up in its thinking anymore that it is mind-numbing. We desperately need something to hit that "reset" button. A ten meter meteorite on London would be a great​ start.

osan
01-06-2013, 08:26 AM
Your "big guy" just stepped up to hold on to that line and haul your asses back.

And buy the coffee.

Free men.

Indeed. It leaves me to wonder, however, how the cops would respond. Would they taze you or dispense with all pretenses and shoot you dead for interfering with an "op"?

Far too many Americans are in need of a moral compass and the growing of a pair of balls... even if only small ones. Even a little is better than nothing.

newbitech
01-06-2013, 08:45 AM
Very crapily written article, but...

“They followed our ice rescue guidelines pretty much to a T,” Champaign Deputy Fire Chief Eric Mitchell told The News Gazette.“They established command … they made visual contact and attempted to talk to him, threw rescue devices, and went on the water,” he said. “Going on the water is the last thing you want to do. They did all the other things first.”

cept one minor detail, WHERE YOU ACTUALLY RESCUE THE GUY BEFORE HE DIES! sorry, but LOL, to a T? And of course they did all the other things first, but the deputy chief makes it sound like "establishing command", "making visual contact", and "attempting to talk" are things that would/should/could be done as an alternative to saving this man!

Nirvikalpa
01-06-2013, 09:17 AM
What if it was an elderly person who was confused? Should we just let them die as well? What if it was a small child, or someone who was not mentally sane. What if somthing scared him onto the ice. What if he dropped something important to him that he was trying to retrieve? What if it was you or someone you loved on the ice? If we are going to trust the government to save us, then they better do their job!

(this isn't pointed to AGRP, I was simply continuing what he had to say)

You can point out all this ridiculous hypotheticals, but that's not what happened.



Well I didn't. I was a volunteer. But really pay doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you are mortal, lol.

Vol. Firefighters go through the same risk-assessment training that paid departments do (at least where I'm from). We don't have death wishes just because we do it for free. And paid departments don't get issued death warrants just because they're paid.

I would encourage everyone who is a critic (or not a critic) to try to find a volunteer fire department and join up. It was a great experience for me.

But I have to warn you that you will encounter situations where you make mistakes, your plans fail, maybe even situations where you can't do anything (like watching a guy burn up in a fuel tanker fire, because the cab and trailer of his semi-truck is fully involved and burns so hot that liquid evaporates before it even hits the fire). And there are even times when you have to clean up your gear at a scene admidts the mumbles and hisses of bystanders who always think they could do a better job.

Heck. I distinctly recall one incident where we saved an old couple's back-yard garage, and then got complaints from them because our rig left 8-inch-deep treadmarks in their lawn. Fun times.

Amen. +rep. So easy to be a critic when you're sitting behind a computer screen.

I love the collectivism of the OP in regards to all first responders.

green73
01-06-2013, 09:39 AM
I love the collectivism of the OP in regards to all first responders.

I love how you say love when you when you really don't love.

jj-
01-06-2013, 09:43 AM
I love how you say love when you when you really don't love.

nirvifatbottom's signature looks like someone with histrionic personality disorder

specsaregood
01-06-2013, 10:13 AM
This would have been a much better story if one of the people went and actually did something while the firefighters and cops just stood there

You mean like this guy:
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15278256


Raft guide arrested after helping stranded rafter on Clear Creek

Clear Creek sheriff's deputies on Thursday arrested a rafting guide for swimming to a stranded young rafter who had tumbled from his boat on Clear Creek.

Ryan Daniel Snodgrass, a 28-year-old guide with Arkansas Valley Adventures rafting company, was charged with "obstructing government operations," said Clear Creek Sheriff Don Krueger.

"He was told not to go in the water, and he jumped in and swam over to the victim and jeopardized the rescue operation," said Krueger, noting that his office was deciding whether to file similar charges against another guide who was at the scene just downstream of Kermitts Roadhouse on U.S. 6.

Duke Bradford, owner of Arkansas Valley Adventures, said Snodgrass did the right thing by contacting the 13-year-old Texas girl immediately and not waiting for the county's search and rescue team to assemble ropes, rafts and rescuers.

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
01-06-2013, 10:16 AM
I am not ready to jump all over them because I was not there and can't say for sure what the situation was that prevented them from performing the rescue. I guess the one question I have is that I live in an area surrounded by water, as a consequence we have trained dive teams with pretty much every local volunteer fire department. When a call comes in about a fisherman, diver, boater, swimmer, etc that is in trouble a dive team is automatically dispatched along with the regular rescue units. Those trucks are loaded down with john boats, ropes and other assorted equipment that would be needed for a water rescue. So I have to wonder if this fire department or locality have any units like this and if they were there. If they do exist they would be fully equipped to handle such an event.

pcosmar
01-06-2013, 10:21 AM
http://vivusarchitecture.com/archive/cub-scouts-practice-ice-rescue-on-me


http://vivusarchitecture.com/gallery/albums/Cub-Scouts/2006_02_Ice_Rescue_003.sized.jpg

Lucille
01-06-2013, 10:24 AM
I am not ready to jump all over them because I was not there and can't say for sure what the situation was that prevented them from performing the rescue. I guess the one question I have is that I live in an area surrounded by water, as a consequence we have trained dive teams with pretty much every local volunteer fire department. When a call comes in about a fisherman, diver, boater, swimmer, etc that is in trouble a dive team is automatically dispatched along with the regular rescue units. Those trucks are loaded down with john boats, ropes and other assorted equipment that would be needed for a water rescue. So I have to wonder if this fire department or locality have any units like this and if they were there. If they do exist they would be fully equipped to handle such an event.

They do. The dive team was called in after he went under.

NCGOPer_for_Paul
01-06-2013, 10:42 AM
I was not there, so I cannot possibly put myself in that position. Though, from what I see is more of a concern for following the "book" or their "training", rather than "someone's in the water, what do we need to do to get him out?" It seems to be a common thing with all of these cases of "first responders" acting as if they don't care. Unfortunately, I feel as if human nature and common sense has been "trained" out of them.

ONE cop ran to Cabela's to get rope? ONE? One cop used COMMON SENSE? Only ONE? Why didn't they use the ladder? Why wasn't SOMETHING that wasn't in the "training" used? I think that's the biggest concern most people have about this situation.

Sure, the "first responders" did everything they were "supposed" to by their "training", and they'll be "praised" for following their damn training, while not really giving a damn about the sap who died 30 feet from them.

Tpoints
01-06-2013, 12:13 PM
http://vivusarchitecture.com/archive/cub-scouts-practice-ice-rescue-on-me


http://vivusarchitecture.com/gallery/albums/Cub-Scouts/2006_02_Ice_Rescue_003.sized.jpg

Good luck having 8 year olds pull you up when you're actually in water (and not supported by ice)

Cleaner44
01-06-2013, 12:16 PM
Good luck having 8 year olds pull you up when you're actually in water (and not supported by ice)

The cool thing about a ladder is that you don't need someone to pull you... you can climb them on your own.

QuickZ06
01-06-2013, 12:20 PM
You can point out all this ridiculous hypotheticals, but that's not what happened.



Amen. +rep. So easy to be a critic when you're sitting behind a computer screen.

I love the collectivism of the OP in regards to all first responders.

Really? What was so collective about any of the comments, sorry but in todays age we have so many laws and rules that people cannot use common sense and figure out a situation like this one it seems. People wanted to help (let um, their life) but the leo's would not let them. Any of those bystanders could have possibly had a better idea than waiting 10 minutes to fill up a raft with air. I don't think anyone is complaining about first responders in general overall just the way these ones were doing there job, but it seems you get really offensive when these types of threads pop up since you are/were one yourself. I realize not everything will go according to plan but good god for an environment like this you would think after all these 100 of years firefighters would have the tools and knowledge and an actual plan to get people out of frozen ponds, lakes ect. ect. a lot more quickly than they did.

pcosmar
01-06-2013, 12:25 PM
The cool thing about a ladder is that you don't need someone to pull you... you can climb them on your own.

He would have known that if he had looked at the link I gave.

This is something cub scouts learn.. I learned it in the Boy Scouts and in school safety classes when I was a kid.


The possibility that this was not common knowledge sort of boggles the mind.

:(

jj-
01-06-2013, 12:30 PM
The possibility that this was not common knowledge sort of boggles the mind.

:(

We live in the age of stupidity (or idiocy?). People are becoming more stupid generation after generation.

Anti Federalist
01-06-2013, 04:47 PM
We live in the age of stupidity (or idiocy?). People are becoming more stupid generation after generation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

green73
01-06-2013, 05:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_4jrMwvZ2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyv_MHxqRX0

jmdrake
01-06-2013, 05:32 PM
As a 10 y/o boy I jumped into the pond to pull out one of the neighbor kids who'd fallen through....This was north of Chicago and plenty cold....

So hell yes I expect a grown man who's paid with tax-payer dollars to get his happy ass out in the wet and save the guy!

+rep both for your bravery as a boy and your common sense as a man.

Tpoints
01-06-2013, 09:11 PM
The cool thing about a ladder is that you don't need someone to pull you... you can climb them on your own.

Ok, I'll do that next time somebody falls out of a plane, what idiot would get a parachute when they can climb a ladder on his own? You don't need to actually pull a person upward, but holding a ladder in place is probably hard enough for an 8 year old.

Tpoints
01-06-2013, 09:13 PM
He would have known that if he had looked at the link I gave.

This is something cub scouts learn.. I learned it in the Boy Scouts and in school safety classes when I was a kid.


The possibility that this was not common knowledge sort of boggles the mind.

:(

You mean a ladder doesn't need to be held in place? Can I just drop ladders all around the lake next time? Or can I throw a person a ladder when he falls out of an airplane? Why was I so stupid to think somebody needs to hold or pull your ladder for you...sorry!

jclay2
01-06-2013, 10:02 PM
How the crap are these corrupt individuals not trained for this fairly common emergency? if they had a rope and any type of flotation device, all they had to do is send out one guy and attempt a 2 minute rescue. This isn't rocket science. Geez.

Edit: From the comments.


I was Coast Guard - Great Lakes four years. Personally did several through ice rescues. Looking at the equipment available ladders, ropes, etc. there was no excuse for not conducting a rescue. It appears they couldn't figure out a way to rescue, but figured out a way to recover the body. What a pitiful group of people conducting this failed rescue

Warrior_of_Freedom
01-07-2013, 12:02 AM
how the hell did he get in the pond? Placing on the ice? I drank some iced tea today and under the cap it said, "Don't just stand there, do something."
I am fortunate to live in a town where the police took on criminals who had more firepower, without any casualties on their side.

phill4paul
09-26-2014, 08:09 PM
bump for relevance to another thread this evening.

Anti Federalist
09-26-2014, 08:29 PM
bump for relevance to another thread this evening.

There was another one like this where they stood around and watched a man drown in the ocean off San Fran IIRC.