What are the Cons of the Free State Project?

[SilentBull]

On their website, the Free State Project says there are many liberty-friendly people that have gotten elected but are not members of the Free State Project. My question is, what do some liberty people have against the project? Is it that they disagree with the project's methods for spreading liberty? Or that maybe they think they would have a better chance of getting elected if they were not members of the project?

[compromise]

They could be NH natives.

[brushfire]

Its probably not a bad idea to have a covert branch, or an establishment "sleeper". I'm sure the establishment will not go quietly.

[sparebulb]

Its probably not a bad idea to have a covert branch, or an establishment "sleeper". I'm sure the establishment will not go quietly.

THIS^^

If I were to join the FSP, the first thing I would do is to not officially join the FSP. I'm not a "joiner", don't want to be on a list, and don't want to pay dues. I would, however, walk the walk on freedom issues.

The FSP needs a conspicuous front, but that is not me. They also need a silent majority.

[green73]

Cold winters.

[Carehn]

Idaho came in 2nd for what state they where going to move to. So thats a down fall. Its not Idaho.

[coastie]

Cons? It can be like this from October to well into May:



http://www.picvalley.net/u/1737/213064062516451662641356970272uEB6mLU9Hksg9aCUkKTh .PNG (http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/1737/213064062516451662641356970272uEB6mLU9Hksg9aCUkKTh .PNG)

After my car accident there, and several unnecessary encounters with Portsmouth's Finest, The State Police, and other local yocal PD's while I was stationed up there, it didn't feel, by any stretch, very free to me. The weather sucks too. Those are my cons.

[Lindsey]

As I see it:

1. The weather

2. The weather

3. The weather

4. The locals who don't appreciate "transplants"

5. Consolidating liberty-lovers in one state rather than having people spreading the message and voting throughout the country.

6. Some representatives of FSP may have turned off potential joiners with their marketing, particularly with the method of spewing negativity about other locations and by being a little too pushy.

[NOVALibertarian]

It's in New Hampshire.

[jcannon98188]

Guys, he meant why would liberty folks elected in NH not be a part of the FSP. Not what are the cons of NH.

[fr33]

The "liberty folks" elected but not part of the FSP might just be "allies" who like *some liberty issues but not *all of the goals of the FSP.

[NoOneButPaul]

As I see it:

1. The weather

2. The weather

3. The weather

4. The locals who don't appreciate "transplants"

5. Consolidating liberty-lovers in one state rather than having people spreading the message and voting throughout the country.

6. Some representatives of FSP may have turned off potential joiners with their marketing, particularly with the method of spewing negativity about other locations and by being a little too pushy.

Really couldn't have said it better myself.

I think the people who are there, especially in Keene, have ruined it for a lot of us and made the FSP look terrible.

Combine that with the fact the GOP basically got their ass handed to them in November in NH and I don't think it's as conservative as we're meant to believe.

As someone who lives in Illinois I'm starting to consider Iowa or Wisconsin the better place to go for me...

[thoughtomator]

NH just feels like an uphill battle to me. It's basically surrounded by socialism, and its weather is a no-go for a lot of us.

Delaware would have been a much better strategic choice. Significantly lower indigenous population to compete with, much better weather, easier access to everything on the East Coast, easier to get people to go there due to those factors, plus a much larger nearby population base to draw from new people from, easier to evangelize and spread the message, and so forth. Then there's the fact that DE is the go-to place for incorporation, which would mean libertarian control of that state would be a strategic victory of almost unimaginable proportions.

[Dreepa]

Natives can't join the FSP.

The goal is to get 20,000 ADDITIONAL people to NH... so someone could agree 100%.. but they couldn't join.
They can join as a friend of the FSP... but not as a participant.

[WilliamShrugged]

I'd say some of the Keene activist have hurt the image within NH. Honestly think NH was a good choice. I've lived in NV, ID, and now TX. These States are some of the more free leaning in the US but i see more POTENTIAL in New Hampshire. Texas is a losing trend like NV due to its movers. NV also has a big issue with water rights. ID is bias Mormon voting state. Its easier to run as a democrat in NH with a libertarian mindset and win compared to running as a republican in ID, and running against a Mormon republican and winning. I view ID as a establishment GOP state that cares more about social issues than freedom.

I know some mention the Dakotas, Wyoming, or Montana but i see some same things i see in ID. Government owns a lot of the land, high social conservative population, and little chance to make a political impact to change outside of out-populating them, which i do see happening anywhere...Yet lol.

[Keith and stuff]

Idaho came in 2nd for what state they where going to move to. So thats a down fall. Its not Idaho.

Here is the order.
1. New Hampshire
2. Wyoming
3. Montana
4. Idaho
5. Alaska
6. Maine
7. Vermont
8. Delaware
9. South Dakota
10. North Dakota

Here is how I voted:
1. WY
2. SD
3. AK

A group started a WY/ID/MT project, it failed and the website went down in 2009, I beleive.

A group started an unofficial MT project. I think 1 family moved.

A group started a WY project. The website has been updated every 6 months or so for the last few years. There were movers, maybe as many as several dozen. Some of them left, though. 1 think only 1-2 are still politically active and that is just voting.

There was a Paulville project to create a community in rural TX but it failed.

A Free Town Project started in Grafton, NH. Some of the people involved talked about making a giant penis statue in the center of town and several other things which turned off the locals. The project went away, but the people there decided to continue it, unofficially. It is thriving. Several new people moved this year and Grafton might be the freest town in the developed world.

Ian Freeman, co-host of Free Talk Live, created the Free Streets Project in Keene, NH. So far, it is 3 properties all right next to each other. Maybe 5 people live there, b/t the 3 properties. A near by house is for sale so it could expand to a total of 4 properties in the foreseeable future but unless someone else puts a house for sale, I don't see it growing.

Recently, another couple copy cat groups where created. 1 for Ashville, NC. Funny thing is, the founder of the FSP lived in Ashville when he created the idea. He never even considered NC because of the high population, high population growth and lack of freedom.

A family who has attended Porcfest for a few years recently started a project in project to Free Austin, TX. TX isn't terribily unfree, especially if you are a conservative Christian. However, Austin is arguably the least free part of TX. I beleive the current mover count is at zero.

Here is a Facebook page which compares the various projects. It is run by Mark Edge, co-host of Free Talk Live. https://www.facebook.com/MoveHereProject

[Keith and stuff]

Cons? It can be like this from October to well into May:
Weather reports of the last few years show NH is getting warmer. Last year, there was a big snow storm on 10-30. It was all melted within 4 days and there wasn't any additional snow until December. The next big snow storm was in January and there were only several big storms all year. The streets and sidewalks were completely clear on snow and ice the vast majority of the winter.

This year, it has snowed 15 inches so far where I live but only 1/2 that in parts of the Seacoast. Heck, I remember 2-3 winters ago. NYC had more snow than where I live in NH. Plus, the further north you live, the less snow is an issue. The further north you live, the better prepared the people and the government are at dealing with snow. Plus, the snow storms in NH tend to be different than the extremely dangerous types, NE, CO, WY, MT and the Dakotas get. There are a bunch of mountains in NH so we don't have storms roll on through the plains. For example, drive through parts of CO and NE. You will likely notice moveable fences near the interstates. These are to protect cars on the open plains from being completely covered by blowing snow.

To answer the OP, though. Most of the liberty people who have been and are elected in NH aren't FSPers. They tend to be other movers or natives. 2/3s of the adult population in NH isn't from NH. People have been moving to NH for liberty since well before the FSP. People have been doing it for a couple hundred years as NH has been noticeably freer than the rest of the Northeast that whole time. FSPers have won a little over 100 elections, but there are a ton of positions and many elections every year.

Some people do move after they hear about how great NH is from FSPers, but, not join the FSP. Some people are almost with the FSP but don't feel they fit the mold. Other people don't like to join lists and have their name in a database so they never join. There have been dozens of these people. However, since they feel less committed, they are more likely to leave NH, it seems. I know a guy who moved from OK to NH. Decided that FSPers weren't violent enough and then move back to OK. However, he still helps with activism in NH. He changes the words of well known songs to make the songs more liberty oriented. Even though he doesn't live here, he has been doing this for a couple years.

[mad cow]

Aside from the winters,there is also the winters.
Moving is a major hassle,but if I wasn't so lazy,I would move right now to Kentucky,specifically the 4th Congressional District.
This State and area has a proven record of electing Liberty minded candidates.
It is also beautiful with a mild climate,cheap real estate and low property taxes.

[Keith and stuff]

NH just feels like an uphill battle to me. It's basically surrounded by socialism, and its weather is a no-go for a lot of us.

Delaware would have been a much better strategic choice. Significantly lower indigenous population to compete with, much better weather, easier access to everything on the East Coast, easier to get people to go there due to those factors, plus a much larger nearby population base to draw from new people from, easier to evangelize and spread the message, and so forth. Then there's the fact that DE is the go-to place for incorporation, which would mean libertarian control of that state would be a strategic victory of almost unimaginable proportions.

DE was a choice. The FSP which state vote wasn't a joke. 1,000s of people were involved and 10,000s of hours or research and debate happened before the vote. The top liberty activists in the country talked it out and then voted. As we can see, DE did very poorly in the vote.
1. New Hampshire
2. Wyoming
3. Montana
4. Idaho
5. Alaska
6. Maine
7. Vermont
8. Delaware
9. South Dakota
10. North Dakota

DE had so many problem. You cannot carry a gun in DE, for example, unless the government likes you. DE does have much for the outdoors or even very close. There aren't huge lakes or mountains near by. The crime is bad. It offered the best job prospects but NH had the 2nd best job prospects. It offered the most mild weather but NH offered the 3rd most mild weather. Comparisons were done and the highs in DE were only a few degrees warmed than southern NH during much of the winter. The major difference in winter is the snow, not the temperature. Some people thought DE was too far away from a border and too close to major population centers. Many people from the West wouldn't even consider DE since 1/2 of it is basically a suburb of Philly. Many people wanted to be near a lot of nature. They wanted to be away from major cities in case there was a SHTF situation. Also, DE isn't that free and has an income tax. Plus, it isn't easy to change. There are some very established interests in DE. Not so in NH. NH is by far the easiest state to change through politics. The media markets are cheaper in NH. Plus, NH is the most important state in the US, politically. Another issue is DE is a solid Democratic state. NH is a swing state and some of the FSP voters were really Republican. You know, those type of people who say they had never even met an elected libertarian Democrat. Those voters didn't want to live in a really dangerous state where you aren't allowed to defend yourself, with terrible schools and nothing but Democratic majorities for decades to come. Honestly, I don't blame them. DE was near the bottom of my list, just like for most of the voters.

[daviddee]

***MY APOLOGIES*** should have read the damn thread.

[Pericles]

1. Weather
2. Proximity to other states
3. Shoveling shit against the tide (see #2)
4. Pissing in the wind (see #2)
5. It is contained within the borders of the USA police state (see concepts described in #3 and #4).

Bonus: #6. Taxes. If you derive your income from dividends, NH is a high tax state.
Bonus: #7. Taxes. If you plan on buying a home then make sure you are fully aware of how much the property taxes will be each year and factor that on a per month basis - so it is painfully clear. $1000 a month for property taxes was a little too much for me. Moving to another state knocked my property taxes to $500 a month and eliminated dividend taxes. NH is a very high tax state in some instances (mine specifically).
Bonus #8. Taxes. If you are self employed you will be hit with corporate taxes on anything about $60K as I recall
Bonus #9. Taxes. If you work in Massachusetts (as a lot of NH people do). Massachusetts will take MA State Taxes out of your check that you get no value from.
Bonus #10. Wages. If you choose not to work in Massachusetts then prepare for the pay cut in NH. A job paying $120K in Massachusetts will pay $80K in NH.

***MY APOLOGIES*** should have read the damn thread. I went into NH sucks mode before reading the thread, but will leave the above rant... because NH sucks :)

Pretty much why I have not made the move - my taxes would rise by over 50%.