Conspiracy theorists - Do they hurt the Liberty movement?

[cbrons]

Simple question: Do "conspiracy theorists" hurt our cause?

Do things like 9/11 Truth annoy you as a liberty activist because you think it turns away people from the core message of private property, non-interventionism, respect for individual civil liberties, and free market capitalism?

As a "Truther" yourself, do you have a problem with people who suggest that you are hurting the movement?

Do you have an opinion either way?

Edit: Started this thread as a way to get a topics and people to interview for my radio show but it turned into a regular discussion

[Indy Vidual]

...good people at the Daily Paul...

Hi Chris, this is RPF's not DP.
Edit: What is a "truther", do you have a definition in mind?
I'm not thinking I want to ever be one of those....



Simple question: Do "conspiracy theorists" hurt our cause?...


Some do, some don't.
Are you sure it's a simple question?

(For example) Iran/Contra is a real scandal not a "conspiracy theory", but...
Was Ollie North truly acting alone, or taking orders from much higher up?
The powerful VP, Elder Bush (who was also probably a CIA agent on duty in Dallas the day JFK was shot), "certainly was" the one running the show, right?

The above is just one simple example:
Exactly where do you want to say the "conspiracy theory" starts to damage our cause?

[Tpoints]

Yes, they do, we already have a thread specifically titled "Conspiracy theorists hurt the liberty movement", if it were not the case, it'd be flagged, retitled, removed.

[belian78]

Why are you trying to stir up shit with this post? That's a better question.

[KCIndy]

Why are you trying to stir up shit with this post? That's a better question.

Shhh!! Don't ask!

It's a conspiracy! ;)

[cbrons]

Indy - Sorry, I now post at only 2 places, here and the DP. The DP got the same request.



Exactly where do you want to say the "conspiracy theory" starts to damage our cause?

I don't want to say where or if they do. I want opinions and people willing to contribute. It's been tossed around on these boards, other places, and even in the higher reaches of the Paul campaign. I'm being purposefully ambiguous because I want to be open to all opinions and formulate a show based on diversity of opinion on the "issue."

[belian78]

No, you want to continue to stir up dust when the boards are already in a tenuous time.

[cbrons]

Shhh!! Don't ask!

It's a conspiracy! ;)

+Rep.


Why are you trying to stir up shit with this post? That's a better question.

Isn't that what media is about? I run a small liberty-oriented talk show. It's a shameless ploy for ratings by exploiting a controversial subject that has been brought up a lot lately.

Also, in a weird way, I'd like us to be more unified. I think the people who are labelled as "conspiracy theorists" are seen as "embaressing" and the people who criticize them (Jack Hunter, Jesse Benton) are seen as establisment hacks who left the movement to stump for the Republican party.

I believe its because of this that the so-called "conspiracy theorists" keep the other group honest, and the other group keeps the "conspiracy theorists" from going too far off the deep end.

A dialogue from both, loosely defined groups can help ease some tension perhaps?

Hope that made sense and wasn't too offensive?

[itshappening]

cbrons = COINTELPRO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO)

[Indy Vidual]

Why are you trying to stir up shit with this post? That's a better question.

No, that's the other thread(s), Chris wants content for his radio show.


Shhh!! Don't ask!

It's a conspiracy! ;)

<It's a conspiracy>

His sleeper account here was activated when funding was approved for his "Libertarian" radio show.
If Alex Jones has him on, then you know he is part of the alternative elite. :p
If David Icke links to his site, check his pupils to see if he's really human...

</It's a conspiracy>

[cbrons]

........ oh well it was worth a shot. Thank you all.

[Indy Vidual]

If all Libertarians gave up that fast the LP would not still be active in all 50 states. :)

[Anti Federalist]

........ oh well it was worth a shot. Thank you all.

LOL - I understand you are looking for content, but sheesh, drop a grenade like that, and what do you expect?

I am an "on the record" 9/11 "Truther".

I am an unashamed "conspiracy theorist".

Objective evidence has proved that is the only logical position you can take when dealing with this government.

If they said the sky was blue and the sun rose in the east, I'd argue with them.

Yes, I get very angry when I am told by "establishment" types to STFU and GTFO.

Not nearly as much as I used to, though.

Being right all the time is remarkably calming. ;)

[cbrons]

If all Libertarians gave up that fast the LP would not still be active in all 50 states. :)

Is that an veiled offer to participate?

[Indy Vidual]

Is that an veiled offer to participate?

Thanks, I already did.

[QuickZ06]

No, I do not believe "conspiracy theorists" hurt the liberty movement. Talk to an everyday citizen about the FED, TSA, ending the drug war ect. ect. and I would bet most would think you are a "conspiracy theorists". The overlords want everything to sound like a conspiracy. The only thing I have come to know any time I research anything is how little I know and how much I will never get to know.

[NoOneButPaul]

"Some of our political allies charge that the powerful elite who run things and are found repeatedly in the Fed, the Treasury, and the Presidency plan and purposely cause certain events like 9-11 and our current financial crisis. I don't believe that. But I do believe that many members of the elite make the best they can out of certain events because they facilitate their efforts to achieve their goals. Rahm Emanuel, Obama's chief of staff, said recently: "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." Obama concurred with Emanuel's assessment.
Many of the laws passed after 9-11 had already been proposed prior to the event, but rejected. Economic planners have many plans to socialize our economy and globalize the effort- if only the people will accept it. And why? Socialization always and everywhere means more power to the state, more control to bureaucrats, more security to the elites, and always at to the expense of the rest of us. Economic chaos assists in this effort.
But to purposely bring on catastrophic events such as the current situation would be a bad move for anyone, because this level of calamity can pose danger even to the insiders. Wealth loss by deflation and inflation can affect everyone. Political chaos is not always beneficial to those in charge and may in fact be a danger to them.
In any case, I believe that concentrating too much on the Fed "conspiracy," one that supposedly works hand in hand with Congress, gives the system more credit or blame than it deserves and distracts from the more important issue of bad ideology. Authoritarianism, supporting statism on moral grounds for whatever reason, is the real threat." - Excerpts from Chapter 8 of "End the Fed"

[John F Kennedy III]

I don't have many conspiracy theories. I have lots of conspiracy facts and strong conspiracy suspicions though.

[QuickZ06]

I don't have many conspiracy theories. I have lots of conspiracy facts and strong conspiracy suspicions though.

And this.

[dillo]

I think its more damaging that a large percentage of the population are borderline retarded

[cbrons]

Well i repped some people above. It's hard to get content for 4 hours a week, so you take some shots in the dark here and there, especially when you have no guests lined up and you just finished a grueling week of exams.

[NewRightLibertarian]

They might hurt some people's dreams of being able to rub elbows with the political elite at cocktail parties, but they're the backbone of the liberty movement. No way, no how will the conspiracy theorists ever bend on the key issues because they understand the nature of the beast that is government.

[AGRP]

Theres a difference between being a conspiracy theorist and fear mongers who leads followers to dead ends.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssxEvQNa16E

[coastie]

What are conspiracy theorists? What are truthers? Are their arch enemies called...liars? Serious question, you can't have a name for one, and not the other.

Collectivist much? You're pretending(or actually believe?) that just because someone questions one thing about a possible conspiracy, that they then believe in ALL conspiracies. You make no distinction here, and instead lump everyone into one big basket.

Take 9/11, for example-I believe planes hit the buildings. I have close relatives and friends that saw planes hit the buildings. I don't believe the hijackers were controlling the planes, though. People like you, however, would say that I believe no planes hit the buildings, because all "truthers" believe that, right?

Do you have any idea how many "crazy" conspiracy theories-have turned out to be true? Kinda like I remember everyone calling my uncle a "conspiracy theorist" in saying that our rights were going to disappear after 9/11....oh wait.

[shane77m]

I think its more damaging that a large percentage of the population are borderline retarded

People like the kid in this video.


http://youtu.be/kqhX_X7CN2s

[sailingaway]

I lurked at DP for a couple of years before joining - first there was some technical issue during the 2008 campaign, and then I just was reading stuff. I was really impressed that people would rather have all news and weed through it for what they wanted rather than shut down people who were interested in or believed in stuff they didn't. I thought that was PART of the liberty message, and living it. It also helps people hone their logic and not fall into the 'sound bite repetition' in place of argument you see so much with talking points.

I think it is a good thing.

I'm sorry those outside the LM get away with demonizing people who are more tolerant of different ideas than they are. Bigotry has become PC, unfortunately.

IMHO.

[Tpoints]

Collectivist much? You're pretending(or actually believe?) that just because someone questions one thing about a possible conspiracy, that they then believe in ALL conspiracies. You make no distinction here, and instead lump everyone into one big basket.

Yes, just like you can lump all religious people together until they give you a way to tell them apart. How do you know who's a legit, honest, serious, non-retarded, interested in more than profit by fearmongering conspiracy theorist? Can you tell me?

[cbrons]

People like you..........

+r

Relax.

I didn't mean to start a discussion thread, I was more looking for people who wanted to give their opinions live on a radio program, but as that ain't happening... I guess carry on?

[NewRightLibertarian]

Yes, just like you can lump all religious people together until they give you a way to tell them apart. How do you know who's a legit, honest, serious, non-retarded, interested in more than profit by fearmongering conspiracy theorist? Can you tell me?

Maybe when they give away all of their documentaries for free that might be a dead giveaway that they're more about getting the word out than profit. It doesn't seem like that begging for people to bootleg your DVDs would be the best model for someone interested solely in making a profit.

[Tpoints]

Maybe when they give away all of their documentaries for free that might be a dead giveaway that they're more about getting the word out than profit. It doesn't seem like that begging for people to bootleg your DVDs would be the best model for someone interested solely in making a profit.

Good point!

[idiom]

Something I posted in another thread yesterday.


I don't understand the purpose of getting so wound up about chemtrails though.

The *official* version of 9/11 is that it was carried out by a CIA trained and supplied organisation. People mostly don't care.

General Clark came out a decade ago and said what are now the last 15 years of wars have all been running to a pre-planned scheduled and listed them in order.

Nobody cares.

If the government admitted tomorrow that chemtrails are real, and that they have been paying the airlines subsidies for the wear gear and weight... no one would care.

They would say it is part of the fight against global warming or something.

The world is so full of tin made real we don't have to chase the tin we don't have insider reports or admissions too.


What is the goal? I mean the hardcore tin canon reckons that even if Ron Paul had been elected president along with 400 followers it wouldn't have changed anything because they would have been swapped out with clones or had their minds changed or something, because the current world order isn't a result of mass incompetence but of malevolent intelligence so powerful its possibly extra terrestrial in origin.

Is that the goal? To get us all to stop 'wasting time' on this forum and figure out how to overthrow the alien overlords?

In that light the whole push to get the less investigated theories limelight looks pretty darn cointel pro if you know what I mean.

[Muwahid]

Something I posted in another thread yesterday.

There's literally no evidence that Al Qaeda is/was a CIA trained and supplied organization. That all stems from the fact the US government helped arm Afghan Mujahideen during the soviet war. It's really frustrating to see people tout this as some kind of fact when there's just NO evidence of it.

[shane77m]

Is it a conspiracy that we are supposed to be fighting a war against Al Qaeda but we are also arming them in Syria? That sounds whacked out to me.

[John F Kennedy III]

They might hurt some people's dreams of being able to rub elbows with the political elite at cocktail parties, but they're the backbone of the liberty movement. No way, no how will the conspiracy theorists ever bend on the key issues because they understand the nature of the beast that is government.

This ^ We are here to stay. To hell with anyone who doesn't like it.

[John F Kennedy III]

What are conspiracy theorists? What are truthers? Are their arch enemies called...liars? Serious question, you can't have a name for one, and not the other.

Collectivist much? You're pretending(or actually believe?) that just because someone questions one thing about a possible conspiracy, that they then believe in ALL conspiracies. You make no distinction here, and instead lump everyone into one big basket.

Take 9/11, for example-I believe planes hit the buildings. I have close relatives and friends that saw planes hit the buildings. I don't believe the hijackers were controlling the planes, though. People like you, however, would say that I believe no planes hit the buildings, because all "truthers" believe that, right?

Do you have any idea how many "crazy" conspiracy theories-have turned out to be true? Kinda like I remember everyone calling my uncle a "conspiracy theorist" in saying that our rights were going to disappear after 9/11....oh wait.

I call them Reality Deniers. Because that's what they are.

There are different groups though. Some simply don't know any better, others actively, aggressively, hatefuly oppose any and every attempt at learning the truth if it doesn't toe the Statist Party line.

You could also just call them Statists.

[idiom]

There's literally no evidence that Al Qaeda is/was a CIA trained and supplied organization. That all stems from the fact the US government helped arm Afghan Mujahideen during the soviet war. It's really frustrating to see people tout this as some kind of fact when there's just NO evidence of it.

Roger Cook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Cook), UK Foreign Secretary ('97-'01) wrote (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jul/08/july7.development):


Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.

Notably, he died of a heart attack four weeks after that was published, aged 59.

We were attacked by "The Database". That is the official story.

To prove that the whole of Muslim radicalization is CIA driven you would have to connect them to Sayyid Qutb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb) who is the intellectual core of Qutbism.


The turning point in Qutb's views resulted from his visit to the United States, where he aimed for further studies in educational administration. Over a two-year period, he worked in several different institutions including what was then Wilson Teachers' College in Washington, D.C., Colorado State College for Education in Greeley, as well as Stanford University.[21] He also traveled extensively, visiting the major cities of the United States and spent time in Europe on the return journey to Egypt.

That trip was in the early fifties so the CIA would have had to have been really on the ball. It is far more plausible that they simply inflamed radical islam later.

[Indy Vidual]

....
We were attacked by "The Database".

Karma works in strange ways...
...sometimes very strange.

[emazur]

Depends.

The frothing at the mouth conspiracy theorists who rant about about 9/11 being an inside job or the NWO at every Ron Paul or libertarian gathering do hurt the liberty movement. It's quite simple: they water down the liberty message with talks of conspiracy that make the liberty movement seem less credible. Especially if the facts of the conspiracy theory are way off (such as JFK being assassinated b/c he "took on the Fed"). That being said, even though they do hurt the liberty movement, they can simultaneously help the liberty movement by bringing in the numbers and by providing a stepping stone from conspiracy theory to more serious and intellectual libertarian theory. The Alex Jones types belong in this category

The calm and structured conspiracy theorist who focuses on the liberty message first and puts conspiracies on the back burner? They help the liberty movement, just so long as they make it clear that their opinions are their own, they take facts and research much more seriously, and don't try to intertwine conspiracy theories with liberty (at least not too much). I would put the John Birch Society (which I like and think their magazine is excellent) in this category. Ron Paul could arguably be put in this category - he believes there is some form of new world order, he believes the Trilateral Commission and CFR conspire to undermine America, and he believes a one world currency is in the pipeline (and in my opinion he would be right or partially right on all three counts. No I don't feel like going into details). As you'll notice, he does not often bring up these subjects and most certainly does not froth at the mouth about them. It is very clear that the message of liberty comes first from Ron Paul. So even if you hate conspiracy theories, you don't really care that Ron believes in some of them.

[Indy Vidual]

...As you'll notice, he does not often bring up these subjects...

Ron does not often bring up these subjects, since he is a master at playing both sides. :p

[Peace&Freedom]

Depends.

The frothing at the mouth conspiracy theorists who rant about about 9/11 being an inside job or the NWO at every Ron Paul or libertarian gathering do hurt the liberty movement. It's quite simple: they water down the liberty message with talks of conspiracy that make the liberty movement seem less credible. Especially if the facts of the conspiracy theory are way off (such as JFK being assassinated b/c he "took on the Fed"). That being said, even though they do hurt the liberty movement, they can simultaneously help the liberty movement by bringing in the numbers and by providing a stepping stone from conspiracy theory to more serious and intellectual libertarian theory. The Alex Jones types belong in this category

The calm and structured conspiracy theorist who focuses on the liberty message first and puts conspiracies on the back burner? They help the liberty movement, just so long as they make it clear that their opinions are their own, they take facts and research much more seriously, and don't try to intertwine conspiracy theories with liberty (at least not too much). I would put the John Birch Society (which I like and think their magazine is excellent) in this category. Ron Paul could arguably be put in this category - he believes there is some form of new world order, he believes the Trilateral Commission and CFR conspire to undermine America, and he believes a one world currency is in the pipeline (and in my opinion he would be right or partially right on all three counts. No I don't feel like going into details). As you'll notice, he does not often bring up these subjects and most certainly does not froth at the mouth about them. It is very clear that the message of liberty comes first from Ron Paul. So even if you hate conspiracy theories, you don't really care that Ron believes in some of them.

The liberty movement has been hurt precisely because it treated exposing conspiracy in this back burner, "wacky uncle" sense, and decimated the momentum of getting any policies changed, by treating the truth as some sort of secondary issue. As you note, Paul kept the matter on the back burner twice in his campaigns, and see how many primaries he won as a result, hmmm? Addressing the issues in an entirely left brain/rational way, to an electorate that is overwhelmingly entranced by neocon right brain emotionalism, is a twice proven failure. This partition theory of liberty discourse is completely false, and feeding the impotence of the movement in waking more people up about both freedom and truth.

The truth will set you free--both factors are on the same level. You simply can't properly talk about the loss of liberty and explosion of war over the last decade without addressing the false flag op that created the pretext for non-stop empire building and omni-surveillance. You can't talk about the evil of the Fed without addressing collusive manner of how it came to be, and how every president who has even incidentally printed money outside the control of the central banks ended up killed. Bashing "JFK took on the Fed" is a strawman, the point is that it IS accurate as a short hand way of summarizing the fate of each politician who allowed non-bank controlled currency to be issued. Why has no President since JFK even accidentially issued more US notes?

The conspiracy structures that entrench and expand tyranny are systemic, and cannot be answered by de-emphasizing their role in crushing freedom. A stance of condescension and derision of Jones et al as 'types' is in no way moving us towards a more serious advocacy of liberty, but rather towards providing cover and legitimacy to the current establishment's marginalization tactics. How many other coincidences, ruined careers and dead bodies are we supposed to ignore, to retain mainstream respectability? Is not this currying of establishment respect part of the problem, and the real reason for giving the exposure of conspiracy second rate status? The Birch Society was mocked and crazy-uncled a generation ago for even bringing up the Fed. So will it be alright for us to admit 9-11 was an inside job in another 30 years, only after we have been all locked up in the camps?

[tangent4ronpaul]

The truether movement, hu?

It did NOT help when making initial contact to hand someone off the street a official RP2012 slim jim and a "9/11 was an inside job" flyer at the same time. It happened. It turned a lot of people off.

The Truether movement has matured. The film group in MI making that movie are pretty good! There have been several other groups that have gotten into good actions or LT projects. Overall, I'm still hesitant about them. It depends on the group, but when they were a toddler - OMG!!!!

EAKS!

-t

[idiom]

The liberty movement has been hurt precisely because it treated exposing conspiracy in this back burner, "wacky uncle" sense, and decimated the momentum of getting any policies changed, by treating the truth as some sort of secondary issue. As you note, Paul kept the matter on the back burner twice in his campaigns, and see how many primaries he won as a result, hmmm? Addressing the issues in an entirely left brain/rational way, to an electorate that is overwhelmingly entranced by neocon right brain emotionalism, is a twice proven failure. This partition theory of liberty discourse is completely false, and feeding the impotence of the movement in waking more people up about both freedom and truth.

The truth will set you free--both factors are on the same level. You simply can't properly talk about the loss of liberty and explosion of war over the last decade without addressing the false flag op that created the pretext for non-stop empire building and omni-surveillance. You can't talk about the evil of the Fed without addressing collusive manner of how it came to be, and how every president who has even incidentally printed money outside the control of the central banks ended up killed. Bashing "JFK took on the Fed" is a strawman, the point is that it IS accurate as a short hand way of summarizing the fate of each politician who allowed non-bank controlled currency to be issued. Why has no President since JFK even accidentially issued more US notes?

The conspiracy structures that entrench and expand tyranny are systemic, and cannot be answered by de-emphasizing their role in crushing freedom. A stance of condescension and derision of Jones et al as 'types' is in no way moving us towards a more serious advocacy of liberty, but rather towards providing cover and legitimacy to the current establishment's marginalization tactics. How many other coincidences, ruined careers and dead bodies are we supposed to ignore, to retain mainstream respectability? Is not this currying of establishment respect part of the problem, and the real reason for giving the exposure of conspiracy second rate status? The Birch Society was mocked and crazy-uncled a generation ago for even bringing up the Fed. So will it be alright for us to admit 9-11 was an inside job in another 30 years, only after we have been all locked up in the camps?

There is a difference between truths that are hidden, like the roll of blow back in foreign policy, where we know more or less exactly what is going on, who is behind it, what the did and when. We have whistle-blowers, insiders coming forward, or documentation.

Then there are thing like 9/11 where we have pretty strong suspicions the official story has holes in it but no alternative timeline that is anything other than speculative.

Its one thing to say, 'the administration is running a deficit and this hurts the economy', but another thing entirely to say, 'President Obama is trying to bring down the united states by running deficits as part of a 300 year old plan put together by Satanists from outer-space'.

Documentation and speculation are very separate.

[tangent4ronpaul]

as weird as the world has been this last decade, I'm going to vote for "300 year old plan put together by Satanists from outer-space'."

-t

[John F Kennedy III]

Depends.

The frothing at the mouth conspiracy theorists who rant about about 9/11 being an inside job or the NWO at every Ron Paul or libertarian gathering do hurt the liberty movement. It's quite simple: they water down the liberty message with talks of conspiracy that make the liberty movement seem less credible. Especially if the facts of the conspiracy theory are way off (such as JFK being assassinated b/c he "took on the Fed"). That being said, even though they do hurt the liberty movement, they can simultaneously help the liberty movement by bringing in the numbers and by providing a stepping stone from conspiracy theory to more serious and intellectual libertarian theory. The Alex Jones types belong in this category

The calm and structured conspiracy theorist who focuses on the liberty message first and puts conspiracies on the back burner? They help the liberty movement, just so long as they make it clear that their opinions are their own, they take facts and research much more seriously, and don't try to intertwine conspiracy theories with liberty (at least not too much). I would put the John Birch Society (which I like and think their magazine is excellent) in this category. Ron Paul could arguably be put in this category - he believes there is some form of new world order, he believes the Trilateral Commission and CFR conspire to undermine America, and he believes a one world currency is in the pipeline (and in my opinion he would be right or partially right on all three counts. No I don't feel like going into details). As you'll notice, he does not often bring up these subjects and most certainly does not froth at the mouth about them. It is very clear that the message of liberty comes first from Ron Paul. So even if you hate conspiracy theories, you don't really care that Ron believes in some of them.

LOL BULLSHIT

[ninepointfive]

There's a scale to conpsiracy theory.

At one end there are people who put facts together, and make a hypothesis about how much B.S. the offical story is.
And at the other are people who incoherently babble about.

So there is a range, and one size doesn't fit all

[itshappening]

The liberty movement is born out of conspiracy because the establishment has perpetuated one for decades, this is undeniable!

Ron Paul was exposing the CIA's involvement in the drug trade in the 80's, that's a fact.

And you don't think all these globalist front groups like the Project for a New American Century are conspiracies ? They meet the very definition.

I hate the term 'conspiracy theory', it's just exposing the facts. The establishment likes to make out that anyone who veers from the official narrative is kooky for believing in 'theories' that are really facts.

Yes, these people do have an agenda, look at the European Union for example. Was that a globalist driven project or a free association of the people's of Europe like how the American Union was born? If you believe it to be the former then your a fully paid up conspiracy theorist.

[Stellwagen]

libertarian = conspiracy theorist in a philosophical kind of way. The idea is that centralization of power cannot be trusted, so we are always speculating as to what politicians are actually doing because we are passionate about a system of checks and balances, and currently our system seems veiled.

That being said, outspoken-emotional-conspiracy theorists do hurt the liberty movement a lot. Not that they're wrong, or that they shouldn't be passionate, but public opinion on conspiracies is very negative by nature.

This is the largest battle, I think, we face with pushing libertarianism mainstream. We draw the people who hate that their freedoms are restricted, but America is relatively free at the moment (in the eyes of most people), so we're associated with druggies, hippies, conspiracy theorists, homeschoolers, homesteaders, etc...... The public sees them as "crazy" so the movement is written off. We need more outspoken "generic/normal" people for the movement to break through. Even Rand's accent will be an issue, I think. The question is, does libertarianism need to go mainstream?

[BAllen]

Well, it's much easier to discredit someone, than to actually go after them with force. Get the msm to spread lies about someone's character, and they can eliminate a lot of their support base. How many sheeple have you heard refer to Ron as a 'kook'? They just repeat what they've heard without any investigation of their own.
Then you have websites with names like 'prisonplanet.com' that doesn't exactly lend itself to credibility, although there may some truth in there. Sensationalists can take a bit of truth and exaggerate it just for popularity purposes, like Alex Jones does.
Start with something that the populace is already familiar with like political correctness. Many recognize it, but they don't really know what it is or where it originated.

[FSP-Rebel]

I think that if people can be brought to the liberty message they'd be more inclined to hear and actually believe the info on conspiracies. While I tend to believe more in the conspiracies than not, I network with the liberty message and leave the rest for people to dig up for themselves. I don't do the research into the conspiracies as I used to since I've heard it all, plus the rabbit hole is too deep and I only have so much time to devote to activism. I think it's a better use of my time trying to bolster the movement by helping campaigns and being a delegate in the GOP along with friends and family. That said, we do need all hands on deck in this growing, multi-faceted movement.

[John F Kennedy III]

The liberty movement has been hurt precisely because it treated exposing conspiracy in this back burner, "wacky uncle" sense, and decimated the momentum of getting any policies changed, by treating the truth as some sort of secondary issue. As you note, Paul kept the matter on the back burner twice in his campaigns, and see how many primaries he won as a result, hmmm? Addressing the issues in an entirely left brain/rational way, to an electorate that is overwhelmingly entranced by neocon right brain emotionalism, is a twice proven failure. This partition theory of liberty discourse is completely false, and feeding the impotence of the movement in waking more people up about both freedom and truth.

The truth will set you free--both factors are on the same level. You simply can't properly talk about the loss of liberty and explosion of war over the last decade without addressing the false flag op that created the pretext for non-stop empire building and omni-surveillance. You can't talk about the evil of the Fed without addressing collusive manner of how it came to be, and how every president who has even incidentally printed money outside the control of the central banks ended up killed. Bashing "JFK took on the Fed" is a strawman, the point is that it IS accurate as a short hand way of summarizing the fate of each politician who allowed non-bank controlled currency to be issued. Why has no President since JFK even accidentially issued more US notes?

The conspiracy structures that entrench and expand tyranny are systemic, and cannot be answered by de-emphasizing their role in crushing freedom. A stance of condescension and derision of Jones et al as 'types' is in no way moving us towards a more serious advocacy of liberty, but rather towards providing cover and legitimacy to the current establishment's marginalization tactics. How many other coincidences, ruined careers and dead bodies are we supposed to ignore, to retain mainstream respectability? Is not this currying of establishment respect part of the problem, and the real reason for giving the exposure of conspiracy second rate status? The Birch Society was mocked and crazy-uncled a generation ago for even bringing up the Fed. So will it be alright for us to admit 9-11 was an inside job in another 30 years, only after we have been all locked up in the camps?

This^ Quote it. Paste it. Front page sticky it. The more this forum continues to ostracize all of us Crazy Uncle Ron Pauls it will become more and more irrelevant as time goes by. By 2016 it will be 5 people talking to themselves or a carbon copy of the mainstream GOP forums. Unless of course you decide to stop treating us and the truth and the seeking of truth the same way O'Reilly and Hannity and the RNC treated Ron Paul this campaign.

It's really sad that this forum pretty much mirrors a co-op like the GOP co-opted the Tea Party.

1. Let's promote Ron and his message to attract members.

2. Ostracize the truthers and treat them like the Establishment treats Ron to purge the truth and HEART of the movement. Stopping any real change from happening.

3. Let Matt Collins break all the forum rules he needs to in order to stamp out grassroots efforts before they have the chance to make a postive impact.

Seriously, any forum that really gave a shit about Liberty wouldn't do this to its members and Matt Collins wouldn't be allowed anywhere near here. He is a plant just like Jesse Benton.

Brought to you by a proud Crazy Uncle Ron Paul.

[acptulsa]

I remember when Watergate was a conspiracy theory. Couldn't happen. That thing that couldn't happen made a lot of Democrats for a while...

[MelissaWV]

Yes, but not as much as forcibly silencing polite dissent would.

If we can't be civil with one another in discussing these issues, I don't hold out much hope for even taking a baby step in the right direction in the future. There are those who don't think we will ever achieve anything, and that being polite is fruitless, but then again why be part of a community where the mission statement is about "doing" if you think "doing" will gain us nothing at all?

Tact, kindess, empathy, and a bit of common sense... it's sad that those things are out the window (amid a flurry of excuses), but if it weren't conspiracy theorists it'd be something else. Every party or movement or family has its loud, crazy, disruptive seeds.

[pcosmar]

Simple question: Do "conspiracy theorists" hurt our cause?



Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.

[belian78]

This^ Quote it. Paste it. Front page sticky it. The more this forum continues to ostracize all of us Crazy Uncle Ron Pauls it will become more and more irrelevant as time goes by. By 2016 it will be 5 people talking to themselves or a carbon copy of the mainstream GOP forums. Unless of course you decide to stop treating us and the truth and the seeking of truth the same way O'Reilly and Hannity and the RNC treated Ron Paul this campaign.

It's really sad that this forum pretty much mirrors a co-op like the GOP co-opted the Tea Party.

1. Let's promote Ron and his message to attract members.

2. Ostracize the truthers and treat them like the Establishment treats Ron to purge the truth and HEART of the movement. Stopping any real change from happening.

3. Let Matt Collins break all the forum rules he needs to in order to stamp out grassroots efforts before they have the chance to make a postive impact.

Seriously, any forum that really gave a shit about Liberty wouldn't do this to its members and Matt Collins wouldn't be allowed anywhere near here. He is a plant just like Jesse Benton.

Brought to you by a proud Crazy Uncle Ron Paul.
I wish I could rep you much more than just once.

[Anti Federalist]

Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.

Really no more difficult than that.

[John F Kennedy III]

Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.

Yes definitely. The truth is far more important than winning elections. We need to educate enough people to stop the full implementation of a 1984/Nazi Germany/Soviet Russia spy police state on steroids. We may not have enough time to win elections before the SHTF. Will they allow voting in FEMA Camps? Can your corpse vote from a ditch?

[John F Kennedy III]

I wish I could rep you much more than just once.

Just telling it like it is bro.

[Anti-Neocon]

Discussion of potential conspiracies and the promotion of liberty should be as separate as possible.

I think that both are great things to get involved in, but they shouldn't be seen as meshing together or conspiracy theories will be looked down on by progressives, and libertarian ideals will be looked down on by the more typical conservatives.

I know that government conspiracies are a good reason to support liberty, but until they are proven, they should stay in the conspiracy theory realm and not bring down the liberty movement.

[Anti Federalist]

I think that both are great things to get involved in, but they shouldn't be seen as meshing together or conspiracy theories will be looked down on by progressives, and libertarian ideals will be looked down on by the more typical conservatives.

Umm, we already are looked down upon.

In fact, there is a growing subsection of both groups that are calling for our heads on a pike.

"Right wingers" have hated us for years, convinced we want the "Mooslim hordes" to rape their women and impose Sharia Law.

"Left wingers" hate us for exercising our rights, convinced we want to shoot their kids.

Pointing out facts, conspiracy related or otherwise, is not going to make them "like us".

"If you are going to tell people the truth, you had damn well better make them laugh, otherwise, they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

[John F Kennedy III]

Discussion of potential conspiracies and the promotion of liberty should be as separate as possible.

I think that both are great things to get involved in, but they shouldn't be seen as meshing together or conspiracy theories will be looked down on by progressives, and libertarian ideals will be looked down on by the more typical conservatives.

I know that government conspiracies are a good reason to support liberty, but until they are proven, they should stay in the conspiracy theory realm and not bring down the liberty movement.

We don't have time to appease others and that has been proven to be ineffective twice. We would have a much bigger tent and much more enthusiastic grassroots right now if we had promoted Liberty and seeking of truth, including all types of conspiracies. We need to seek and promote truth. You cannot do that if you are not allowed to ask questions.

[pcosmar]

Discussion of potential conspiracies and the promotion of liberty should be as separate as possible.



You mean like Viet Nam.. That shit ended because people raised hell and called it out for what it was.
A pointless war based on a LIE.
A criminal Conspiracy that no one has ever been charged with.

and yet cost the lives of well over 50,000 Americans,,and an unknown number of others.

The whole government runs on Conspiracies. Some of them larger and more deadly. some petty.

It is a reality like air and water.

[PaulConventionWV]

Well i repped some people above. It's hard to get content for 4 hours a week, so you take some shots in the dark here and there, especially when you have no guests lined up and you just finished a grueling week of exams.

Cut the crap. WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR!!!

(kidding)

[John F Kennedy III]

Umm, we already are looked down upon.

In fact, there is a growing subsection of both groups that are calling for our heads on a pike.

"Right wingers" have hated us for years, convinced we want the "Mooslim hordes" to rape their women and impose Sharia Law.

"Left wingers" hate us for exercising our rights, convinced we want to shoot their kids.

Pointing out facts, conspiracy related or otherwise, is not going to make them "like us".

"If you are going to tell people the truth, you had damn well better make them laugh, otherwise, they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

Well said bro.

[NoOneButPaul]

I dont mind the conspiracy stuff, infact I enjoy reading the other perspectives. But, I think the quotes I continue to plaster from Ron himself show my position...

It distracts from the real problem: bad ideology and supporting statism on moral grounds.


My problem with the conspiracy people are three fold:

1) A lot of times their so called "facts" are a total load and that ends up hurting us to the outsiders. So often their "facts" are total lies or overexaggerations and thus their predictions fall flat and make us all look stupid (There's a long list from Jones). Furthermore they never deal with any kind of substance politically it's all just about how afraid we should be today- there's never EVER a solution offered it's just more and more fear spread further and further.
2) Any one who disagrees with them is automatically a bot sent from the gov't to discredit the "truth." It's pretty bogus to just yell and scream cointelpro every time someone says anything you disagree with. It's also incredibly intolerant and thus disgraceful to the ideas of freedom and liberty.
3) The conspiracy people think this is "their" movement that they in fact started it and are the cause for every positive thing that came from 2008 and 2012... I often wonder how many of our delegates and people who actually DO SOMETHING are a part of this so called truth movement. These conspiracy people seem to think they are the driving force of the movement when 1) politically that doesn't seem to be the case and 2) this movement, at least in my opinion, has, was, and is being driven by the Austrian school of economics, not Alex Jones and his brand of fear mongering and repeatedly wrong predictions.
We are all standing on the shoulders of people like Rothbard, Hayek, Mises, and Ron, and to think otherwise is incredibly foolish imo... I think more and more people started to listen to Ron after 2008 because he had been so right about EVERYTHING and part of him being right so often has everything to do with the Austrian school. Not the "truth" movement...

People are entitled to their opinions but I think the biggest problem with the conspiracy people is just how intolerant they are of other people and other people's opinions. Not only does it make us all look like hypocrites but it kills any chance at real growth.

[idiom]

You mean like Viet Nam.. That shit ended because people raised hell and called it out for what it was.
A pointless war based on a LIE.
A criminal Conspiracy that no one has ever been charged with.

and yet cost the lives of well over 50,000 Americans,,and an unknown number of others.

The whole government runs on Conspiracies. Some of them larger and more deadly. some petty.

It is a reality like air and water.

The Vietnam protests got serious when documentary proof came out.

[awake]

Simple question: Do "conspiracy theorists" hurt our cause?

Do things like 9/11 Truth annoy you as a liberty activist because you think it turns away people from the core message of private property, non-interventionism, respect for individual civil liberties, and free market capitalism?

As a "Truther" yourself, do you have a problem with people who suggest that you are hurting the movement?

Do you have an opinion either way?

I want to discuss this on my radio show tomorrow, at 5pm central/6pm eastern on LibertyMovementRadio.com and www.cbrons.com (http://www.cbrons.com).

I would like for the good people on these boards, no matter what their opinion, to chime in on this issue. Your opinion, in the form of a phone or skype recording, will be played on the show. If you want to participate, please respond below and I will private message you for information on how we can get in contact. Again, it will be via phone (you can call the studio or I can call a number you give me) or skype.

Please let me know.


Nope, I love them. They might be wrong on some things, but they are completely correct about government being a bunch of shady thieves and murderers. They add to the liberty movement by simply implying that the state conspires against its citizens.

[cbrons]

Cut the crap. WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR!!!

(kidding)

+r

[pcosmar]

Conspiracy Theorists?

How do you define that?

Was the Viet Nam War started with a False Flag? (Gulf of Tonkin)
Was MK-Ultra a Criminal Conspiracy?
How about COINTELPRO?
Tuskegee Syphilis experiment? (and others)
Forced sterilizations?
Iraq, Afghanistan? (sold with lies and media complicity)

Did our government conspire with others to overthrow democratically elected leaders of other countries?
Has our government ever conspired against American Citizens?

Theories may vary as to details,, Conspiracy is quite common.
Business as usual.

[cbrons]

My problem with the conspiracy people are three fold:

1) A lot of times their so called "facts" are a total load and that ends up hurting us to the outsiders. So often their "facts" are total lies or overexaggerations and thus their predictions fall flat and make us all look stupid (There's a long list from Jones). Furthermore they never deal with any kind of substance politically it's all just about how afraid we should be today- there's never EVER a solution offered it's just more and more fear spread further and further.

I've been listening to A.J. for many years, on and off. Mostly for entertainment purposes/to pass time when I'm playing videogames and I get sick of neo-cons, and I don't want to listen to the regular sound from the game.

While I think he is sincere in many respects, and a talented broadcaster, I get tired very quickly of the endless, complicated evil schemes he believes the government is undertaking around the world. I believe he gives the government way more credit (not to mention assumes they are way more efficient) than they actually deserve or are. I don't necessarily have a big problem with most of these things, but many of his medical/pharma conspiracy theories are truly repulsive. Some examples:

- Vaccines cause autism? He's still pushing this garbage even after many, many reputable medical and public health journals have shown this to be a farce? Does he realize this has consequences or does he simply not care if previously eradicated third world diseases become more common in children? If you don't want to vaccinate your kid, that is your right. But if you are going to use some ridiculously schizo-like paranoid theory to encourage others not to do so, that's where I speak out.

- The way he hocks multi-vitamins as cures for inveterate diseases (he actually had some guy on there claim that he cured a man with Madcow disease using the "Alex Pack" - a combo of Omega 3, multivitamins, and glucosamine/chondroitin. (The human "form" of so-called madcow disease is called Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease - which is universally fatal and not diagnosed until autopsy). This was so disgusting to me I actually almost tried calling in to the show to argue with the quack he had on there. Imagine if a little vitamin C and fish oil could cure an illness the best neurologists and infectious disease physicians and researchers in the world have known and been working to treat for almost 100 years!) Simply amazing to me. Of course, he could have been misdiagnosed by an actual MD as opposed to the Veterinary pathologist (not joking) who pushes these products, something tells me the story is a complete fraud but then again I am cynical. There are probably many other examples outside of health. I'm particularly entertained by his oft-used script:

"X WAS CREATED/TRAINED BY THE CIA. IT'S MAINSTREAM NEWS."
"THE GOVT IS POISONING THE WATER. IT'S MAINSTREAM NEWS." etc.


2) Any one who disagrees with them is automatically a bot sent from the gov't to discredit the "truth." It's pretty bogus to just yell and scream cointelpro every time someone says anything you disagree with. It's also incredibly intolerant and thus disgraceful to the ideas of freedom and liberty.

Prognostication for responses in this thread.... But it is incredibly embarrassing. One of the my latest favorites in the YouTube world is where a group of former AJ fans label him COINTELPRO and go back and forth with their "documentary evidence" interchanged with him calling other people COINTELPRO.



3) The conspiracy people think this is "their" movement that they in fact started it and are the cause for every positive thing that came from 2008 and 2012... I often wonder how many of our delegates and people who actually DO SOMETHING are a part of this so called truth movement. These conspiracy people seem to think they are the driving force of the movement when 1) politically that doesn't seem to be the case and 2) this movement, at least in my opinion, has, was, and is being driven by the Austrian school of economics, not Alex Jones and his brand of fear mongering and repeatedly wrong predictions.

We are all standing on the shoulders of people like Rothbard, Hayek, Mises, and Ron, and to think otherwise is incredibly foolish imo... I think more and more people started to listen to Ron after 2008 because he had been so right about EVERYTHING and part of him being right so often has everything to do with the Austrian school. Not the "truth" movement...

This is the best part of your post, and I couldn't agree more. As someone who reads all of the people you mentioned above, especially Rothbard, I really wish people in this movement would spend more time "getting back to their roots." Rothbard was a genius, and an intellectual giant among other giants of his day. He was disliked by neo-cons and the leftist hacks, and in fact, he showed in Betrayal of the American Right that they are basically one in the same.

Rothbard himself was a conspiracy theorist in a way. He looked beyond the mainstream reports, and traced connections between the politicians and the megabanks (and other corporate interests) who backed them and benefited from their policies. He makes pretty astute but obvious connections in his writings. Read Wall Street, Banks, and American Foreign Policy for example (here for free (https://mises.org/document/1223/Wall-Street-Banks-and-American-Foreign-Policy) in ebook form). He casts doubt on the integrity of every US president from McKinley to LBJ, including the beloved Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, and FDR. These guys were not the noble leaders people are taught today - they were opportunists who were elected by the wealthy elite and their presidencies only brought them more wealth.

Here's the thing, though: Rothbard's "conspiracy theories" were not really all that complex. They were simply obvious to anyone who believes humans will always seek to pursue their own rational self-interest. He didn't have to come up with creative pseudo-religions for the power elite, symbological conspiracy, or highly complex background stories to everything. The book I just mentioned covers ~80 years of American foreign policy, mentions the Council on Foreign Relations, mentions the Trilateral Comission, mentions Cecil Rhodes and his imperialism, and yet is well under 200 pages. It's all about connecting the shared interests of the different players. There is really nothing astonishing, new, or even interesting about human beings being corrupt and selfish.



People are entitled to their opinions but I think the biggest problem with the conspiracy people is just how intolerant they are of other people and other people's opinions. Not only does it make us all look like hypocrites but it kills any chance at real growth.

Before anyone gets upset with me, please try to see where I'm coming from:

I defend the so-called "conspiracy theorists" of the L.M. for a few reasons:

1. To me, any strong distrust of government is to be encouraged.

2. I consider all of the so-labelled "conspiracy theorists" to be my bros/sisters in liberty. They may annoy me sometimes, but they keep me honest, and I know the people labelled by the "establishment" liberty movement people, like the ones who run candidates in the Republican party, are kept honest by the "conspiracy theorists" because this group will never cave into the establishment garbage just to fit in. And that I admire.

I should be able to criticize people like Alex Jones, even in a way that may seem harsh, while still recognizing that he is fundamentally on the same side. This whole issue is an "in-family" argument, at least that's how I see it. If you are deeply offended by criticisms of your beliefs in 9/11 or water fluoridation or whatever, then you probably place a greater importance in propagating those theories at the expense of promoting the message of liberty - which is fundamentally what Ron Paul himself says, only in a nicer way.

Whether you believe 9/11 was an inside job or not, the people in this movement want to see the scum who run the country sent packing and want to see the Constitution and Bill of Rights in particular, respected once again and/or they at least want the right to self-determination respected again. In other words, if they don't want to restore the country to its founding principals, they want to see it break up into smaller governments that are more controllable that will or they want to see a breakup of all government in particular. Without really expounding on the merits (or lack thereof) any of those options, it all comes down to the fact that we are staunch individualists and want a situation that is reflective of that.

[Danke]

link? I have heard talk about being able to reverse some of the Alzheimer symptoms with nutrition.

[EBounding]

I think that if people can be brought to the liberty message they'd be more inclined to hear and actually believe the info on conspiracies. While I tend to believe more in the conspiracies than not, I network with the liberty message and leave the rest for people to dig up for themselves. I don't do the research into the conspiracies as I used to since I've heard it all, plus the rabbit hole is too deep and I only have so much time to devote to activism. I think it's a better use of my time trying to bolster the movement by helping campaigns and being a delegate in the GOP along with friends and family. That said, we do need all hands on deck in this growing, multi-faceted movement.

^ This right here.

Conspiracy theorists hurt the movement only if they're telling voters things they don't want to hear. But this goes for any activist. I'm personally extremely pro-life, but I'm not going to tell an independent voter the horrors of scraping unborn babies from the womb when all they care about is the economy.

[UWDude]

LoL. It so childish to see people try to shut other people up because they are "hurting the movement".

[John F Kennedy III]

LoL. It so childish to see people try to shut other people up because they are "hurting the movement".

I agree.

[cbrons]

LoL. It so childish to see people try to shut other people up because they are "hurting the movement".

Who is trying to shut people up?

[UWDude]

Who is trying to shut people up?

Just about everybody. I see it all the time here and on Youtube. OMG Adam K! Don't say that, you'll hurt the movement! OMG if you're a truther, keep it quiet, you'll hurt the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement? Shut up, yer hurtin' the movement!

It's the libertarian's sad attempt at shutting up other libertarians they disagree with.

Yer hurtin' the movement!

[ninepointfive]

Just about everybody. I see it all the time here and on Youtube. OMG Adam K! Don't say that, you'll hurt the movement! OMG if you're a truther, keep it quiet, you'll hurt the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement? Shut up, yer hurtin' the movement!

It's the libertarian's sad attempt at shutting up other libertarians they disagree with.

Yer hurtin' the movement!

If I were a cartoonist, I'd make a special bowel movement for the liberty movement cartoon.

Basically, the one's I see who claim to think others are hurting the movement are the one's who have installed themselves into the political scene, and can't have anyone's who's shoulders they've stood upon embarrass them.

[NewRightLibertarian]

Basically, the one's I see who claim to think others are hurting the movement are the one's who have installed themselves into the political scene, and can't have anyone's who's shoulders they've stood upon embarrass them.

We are supposed to believe that their political ambitions are more important than the truth because, I guess, if they are able to succeed that they'll be sure to advance liberty once they're in the position of power. I wonder how many other people have gotten into politics with the goals of promoting what they believed to be a noble goal, 'played the game' and then suddenly reverted to a champion of a virtuous belief system once in power? Has that ever happened?

[parocks]

LOL BULLSHIT

Right. I'm a Ron Paul supporter. Back in 2008, Ron Paul talked about Conspiracies. If all Ron Paul was talking about was tired Libertarian BS that I've heard from Libertarians for years (Open Borders and repeal the Minimum Wage are always out front), I would not have been a passionate supporter.

Is there a Ron Paul "Anti-Conspiracy" movement? Anti Conspiracy was definitely a real part of Ron Paul's message in 2008. He spent some time talking about it at the big Philly rally. Anti-Conspiracy is and should remain part of whatever it is that the Ron Paul people are doing.

The people who are concerned with conspiracies often act like assholes, and are prone to ranting in a conversation. Often those people are just now learning about these conspiracies and want to tell everyone, loudly.

And what's the problem with talking about United States Notes. JFK did have United States Notes printed - in $2 and $5. There are many who believed that JFK pissed off the Fed by doing this. JFK was shot. Do we have to believe the "lone gunman" theory in order to be in the Liberty Movement.

You could change the title to "Assholes - Do they hurt the Liberty movement"? Because that's actually a real problem. Antiwar protester assholes - do they hurt the Liberty Movement.

I don't want to even hear suggestions that conspiracy theories are harmful.

Ron Paul Supporters - Do they hurt the Liberty Movement?
Libertarians - Do they hurt the Liberty Movement?

[UWDude]

Right. I'm a Ron Paul supporter. Back in 2008, Ron Paul talked about Conspiracies. If all Ron Paul was talking about was tired Libertarian BS that I've heard from Libertarians for years (Open Borders and repeal the Minimum Wage are always out front), I would not have been a passionate supporter.

Is there a Ron Paul "Anti-Conspiracy" movement? Anti Conspiracy was definitely a real part of Ron Paul's message in 2008. He spent some time talking about it at the big Philly rally. Anti-Conspiracy is and should remain part of whatever it is that the Ron Paul people are doing.

The people who are concerned with conspiracies often act like assholes, and are prone to ranting in a conversation. Often those people are just now learning about these conspiracies and want to tell everyone, loudly.

And what's the problem with talking about United States Notes. JFK did have United States Notes printed - in $2 and $5. There are many who believed that JFK pissed off the Fed by doing this. JFK was shot. Do we have to believe the "lone gunman" theory in order to be in the Liberty Movement.

You could change the title to "Assholes - Do they hurt the Liberty movement"? Because that's actually a real problem. Antiwar protester assholes - do they hurt the Liberty Movement.

I don't want to even hear suggestions that conspiracy theories are harmful.

Ron Paul Supporters - Do they hurt the Liberty Movement?
Libertarians - Do they hurt the Liberty Movement?

Shut up, please, dude. Yer hurtin' the movement.

[ninepointfive]

We are supposed to believe that their political ambitions are more important than the truth because, I guess, if they are able to succeed that they'll be sure to advance liberty once they're in the position of power. I wonder how many other people have gotten into politics with the goals of promoting what they believed to be a noble goal, 'played the game' and then suddenly reverted to a champion of a virtuous belief system once in power? Has that ever happened?

Yeah, probably not.

I have at one time thought they can go do what they do, we can do what we do, and just have respect for the others who want to go a different route. You know, live and let live. The non aggression principle and all. And all meet in the middle with respect for one another.

I call those types who will have it no other way, the Libertarian Authoritarians. They are not actually promoting freedom, but their own ego. It's quite disgusting. What will Ron Paul's legacy become if we are to compromise on our virtue?

Some people are in this for different reasons. But when it becomes apparent that one side would like to fight the other, then it's a duty to call them out for their falsehoods and disrespect. We must not allow them the higher ground, and make sure the appropriate funds and hard work are placed into venues of positive action with freedom as the result.

And it's become obvious that the politicos which have recently become dubbed Ron Paul Inc. have no respect for the grassroots efforts, and have no respect for the principle of free will and a multiple pronged approach to restore the republic. They have actively sought to destroy anyone else who doesn't fit into the mold, and therefore I will expose them to the best of my ability.

The Republic has little time left, and those who wish to divide us, have no place in my company.

[cbrons]

Shut up, please, dude. Yer hurtin' the movement. lol +r

Remember I started this thread as a cheap ploy for controversy on my radio show but since I didn't get any takers to discuss the issue on radio it became a discussion.

[Neil Desmond]

Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.
Very well put!

These are just a few things that I'd like to mention:

Part of being a liberty-minded individual is to be distrustful of government. If there's anything that would make an organization look bad, it would be the chumps who are part of that organization - not the other way around (e.g., people being skeptical or doubtful of a story that lacks evidence and isn't plausible).

I believe in justice just as much as I believe in liberty. The attacks that occurred on 9/11/01 should have been handled and investigated as a crime, yet they weren't; for example, evidence such as the steel beams from the World Trade Center (WTC) buildings was hauled away to be shipped to China and melted down to make a Navy ship - this is a tragedy of injustice.

Ad hominem attacks on people who don't want to buy an officially sanctioned or promoted story only serve to help the assailants get away with their attacks, crime, treason, etc. I don't buy what's generally referred to as the "official story" regarding the 9/11/01 attacks (i.e., that it can all be explained as an event carried out by 19 suicidal hijackers), but at the same time I'm not going to allege that it was an inside job without proof, evidence, or a good enough reason to do so (not that there is or isn't, but meaning that there are necessary and sufficient elements to do so).

Just because the 9/11/01 WTC attack planes crashed into the buildings, and the buildings collapsed shortly afterwards, does not mean that the planes crashing into the buildings caused these buildings to collapse. This is a type of logical fallacy known as Post hoc ergo propter hoc. When one poses the question cui bono (or says follow the money), one can arrive at the conclusion that the 9/11/01 WTC complex attack was at least in part a candidate case of insurance fraud.

[Indy Vidual]

Yeah, probably not.

I have at one time thought they can go do what they do, we can do what we do, and just have respect for the others who want to go a different route. You know, live and let live. The non aggression principle and all. And all meet in the middle with respect for one another.

I call those types who will have it no other way, the Libertarian Authoritarians. They are not actually promoting freedom, but their own ego. It's quite disgusting. What will Ron Paul's legacy become if we are to compromise on our virtue?

Some people are in this for different reasons. But when it becomes apparent that one side would like to fight the other, then it's a duty to call them out for their falsehoods and disrespect. We must not allow them the higher ground, and make sure the appropriate funds and hard work are placed into venues of positive action with freedom as the result.

And it's become obvious that the politicos which have recently become dubbed Ron Paul Inc. have no respect for the grassroots efforts, and have no respect for the principle of free will and a multiple pronged approach to restore the republic. They have actively sought to destroy anyone else who doesn't fit into the mold, and therefore I will expose them to the best of my ability.

The Republic has little time left, and those who wish to divide us, have no place in my company.

+Rep for venues of positive action :)

[John F Kennedy III]

Just about everybody. I see it all the time here and on Youtube. OMG Adam K! Don't say that, you'll hurt the movement! OMG if you're a truther, keep it quiet, you'll hurt the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement? Shut up, yer hurtin' the movement!

It's the libertarian's sad attempt at shutting up other libertarians they disagree with.

Yer hurtin' the movement!

Yep. Ron Paul would vehemently object to the Statist actions of many members on here.

[John F Kennedy III]

We are supposed to believe that their political ambitions are more important than the truth because, I guess, if they are able to succeed that they'll be sure to advance liberty once they're in the position of power. I wonder how many other people have gotten into politics with the goals of promoting what they believed to be a noble goal, 'played the game' and then suddenly reverted to a champion of a virtuous belief system once in power? Has that ever happened?

Well the excuse used to be that we should shut up so Ron Paul can have a real shot at becoming President. The election was over a month ago.

[Indy Vidual]

Theres a difference between being a conspiracy theorist and fear mongers who leads followers to dead ends.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssxEvQNa16E

Is it safe to watch that, or will we be assigned a special room at FEMA camp? :o

[Indy Vidual]

The Vietnam protests got serious when documentary proof came out.

Much of the massive protesting was a direct response to the draft, or so I was told.

[John F Kennedy III]

Yeah, probably not.

I have at one time thought they can go do what they do, we can do what we do, and just have respect for the others who want to go a different route. You know, live and let live. The non aggression principle and all. And all meet in the middle with respect for one another.

I call those types who will have it no other way, the Libertarian Authoritarians. They are not actually promoting freedom, but their own ego. It's quite disgusting. What will Ron Paul's legacy become if we are to compromise on our virtue?

Some people are in this for different reasons. But when it becomes apparent that one side would like to fight the other, then it's a duty to call them out for their falsehoods and disrespect. We must not allow them the higher ground, and make sure the appropriate funds and hard work are placed into venues of positive action with freedom as the result.

And it's become obvious that the politicos which have recently become dubbed Ron Paul Inc. have no respect for the grassroots efforts, and have no respect for the principle of free will and a multiple pronged approach to restore the republic. They have actively sought to destroy anyone else who doesn't fit into the mold, and therefore I will expose them to the best of my ability.

The Republic has little time left, and those who wish to divide us, have no place in my company.

Amen brother. We are re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I just want a fucking life preserver. Let them have the piano.

[liberty2897]

Conspiracy theorists - Do they hurt the Liberty movement?

No.

Statists - Do they hurt the liberty movement?

Yes.

[idiom]

http://i.imgur.com/x87GK.png

[UWDude]

http://i.imgur.com/x87GK.png

who wrote this?

I especially like the part about people uninterested in the skills of the others. It is off-topic, but only tennis players like to watch tennis, and only karaoke singers really like American Idol.

[Indy Vidual]

According to one site:

who wrote this?

Right
By Light and Life Evangel



http://i.imgur.com/x87GK.png

Great in most contexts. :)
"Never to mind what others say", while remaining open to learning from others.

[PaulConventionWV]

This^ Quote it. Paste it. Front page sticky it. The more this forum continues to ostracize all of us Crazy Uncle Ron Pauls it will become more and more irrelevant as time goes by. By 2016 it will be 5 people talking to themselves or a carbon copy of the mainstream GOP forums. Unless of course you decide to stop treating us and the truth and the seeking of truth the same way O'Reilly and Hannity and the RNC treated Ron Paul this campaign.

It's really sad that this forum pretty much mirrors a co-op like the GOP co-opted the Tea Party.

1. Let's promote Ron and his message to attract members.

2. Ostracize the truthers and treat them like the Establishment treats Ron to purge the truth and HEART of the movement. Stopping any real change from happening.

3. Let Matt Collins break all the forum rules he needs to in order to stamp out grassroots efforts before they have the chance to make a postive impact.

Seriously, any forum that really gave a shit about Liberty wouldn't do this to its members and Matt Collins wouldn't be allowed anywhere near here. He is a plant just like Jesse Benton.

Brought to you by a proud Crazy Uncle Ron Paul.

I would be really careful using the whole "Ron Paul does this and he hasn't won any primaries" argument. What's ironic is that we are discussing conspiracies (theories, facts, whatever), and we use that argument even though we know the very fact that Ron Paul hasn't won any primaries could be the result of a conspiracy. I happen to think it's been pretty well-demonstrated that this happened. There's no doubt that the media had an effect on his support among average joes.

Correlation does not equal causation, especially when there are only two cases available to study. No relationship can be established. "Ron Paul does this" and "Ron Paul doesn't win any primaries" may be facts, but they have no established relationship, strong or weak. They are exclusive.

[UWDude]

I know this:
There is a conspiracy in the media, to deliver a tailor made message regardless of the event.
Do I think Newtown was a MKUltra staged event? Unlikely.
Do I think there is a conspiracy, to chip away at the second, by trying to blame a certain gun, a "rifle" "assault weapon"
Abso-fucking-lutely.
Do I think there is, and has been a concerted, well guided effort to hide the effects of psychotropic drugs in all of these cases?
Abso-fucking-lutely. 100% sure.
Instead, it is the same tired cliches of guns, video games, and rock music.
There are no rights to take away by blaming the poisons in these poor kids' heads.
And do I believe there is a concerted effort, by an elite few, to take away our rights as their principle objective?
Again, 100% absolutely sure.
They are going after the second, because it is the ONLY guarantor of the first.
And more than anything, the liars in charge want to shut us up.

Why? Because they know:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. And to get people to kill people, they have to have an idea. And they don't want anybody getting any ideas. They know, if enough people figure out what crooked, evil, sociopathic megalomaniacs they are, that their $1000 silk ties will be their nooses.
They know if their soldiers and enforcers get the "wrong" ideas, that their armies and police apparatuses will be useless.

[PaulConventionWV]

LoL. It so childish to see people try to shut other people up because they are "hurting the movement".

+rep

The issue of whether conspiracy theorists hurt the movement is completely moot. What's more, the issue itself is a distraction, not just the conspiracy theories that come out. The whole idea that we should figure out whether someone is hurting the movement assumes that we can do anything about it. In other words, the debate is really an argument over who should have control over what gets out and what doesn't. It's stifling to liberty to say that we should try to make people stop speaking their minds.

This is about people who want control or influence over the movement to strengthen their own agenda. So I say we stop it with this silly business about who hurts and who helps. It doesn't make a damned bit of difference. People are going to say what they want to say, and we have to stop seeing that as a reflection on the collective "movement". Supporters of Ron Paul cannot represent Ron Paul, and we have to wake up to this fact.

[MelissaWV]

Movements need to move on.

That's what's causing most of the division right now. Some folks never believed anyone would win their election anyways, and the few that have will obviously just turn on us (and a subset of those folks are salivating, waiting for someone to vote "wrong" so they can post an article and preen about it). Some folks believed everyone would get elected THIS time, and did actually get a few people elected (but at what cost, both financially and philisophically). Some folks don't give a fig about the elections and mostly seem interested in a mixture of informing fellow forum members... and crying that the sky is falling (too many chemtrails). It's always been the makeup of the population on the forums, but now that the bulk are not focused on the same shiny object, it becomes more obvious how different we all are.

The forum still does have a mission statement. It still does have moderators (most of which are not even moderating anymore, but are still complained about on a regular basis). There still are alternatives to it. There's still a market for a variety of sites that cater to different segments of the population that want to engage in certain kinds of discussions. I don't think anyone's really being silenced, and I find a bit of irony in someone on these boards saying that one person expressing a "shhh you'll hurt the movement" opinion is unacceptable, because it silences the other person who has every right to say that the WTC was brought down by [insert theory].

It's time to reflect on what YOU want to happen next, and how YOU can help it happen. Will you run for office? Will you start prepping more seriously? Will you go completely off-grid? Will you support Rand? Thomas? Amash? Someone else? Will you toss your money at Ron and whatever new venture he captains? Will you continue to dig up stories (and be responsible enough to research them, and not post rumor as fact)? Will you find a pet cause and advocate for it? Will you find one injustice you can stop, maybe even on a local level, and rally to do just that? There are myriad things to do, and some of them are going to "look bad." It's time to stop linking everything back to one central movement, imo. The "crazy uncle" comparison is apt, but there's no direct blood relation.

So maybe, just maybe, I can hope that the fact I want people being held to rules they agree to abide by ... doesn't make me "Statist"? And that pointing out big glaring logic holes in folks' posts ... doesn't make me a Government plant/shill? Nah. Back to your regularly-scheduled game of "he started it." :(

[acptulsa]

No relationship can be established. "Ron Paul does this" and "Ron Paul doesn't win any primaries" may be facts, but they have no established relationship, strong or weak. They are exclusive.

That's probably an overstatement, but not much of one. You are completely right that Fox cost Ron Paul a bunch of primaries, and there have been shenanigans (such as when Louisiana combined all the other candidates into a 'coalition' in 2008) and possibly vote fraud. If there's a causal relationship here, it's Ron Paul doesn't 'play ball' and vote as he's told to, so he wins no primaries.


People are going to say what they want to say, and we have to stop seeing that as a reflection on the collective "movement". Supporters of Ron Paul cannot represent Ron Paul, and we have to wake up to this fact.

The trick, of course, is to do a good job rebutting the feeling in others. This isn't easy when the media is constantly playing its divide and conquer game, and telling people, 'See? You don't want to be associated with these other people.' On the other hand, there are people here who are here specifically because they were made to see the truth about, say, 9/11 and it made them mad enough to get off their duffs. So, I guess the thing to wish for is that we all become perfect, and perfectly able to ferret out what will make a person love liberty enough to fight for it and push just those particular buttons.

But in the end, our best strategy is to help everyone come to love liberty--be it messy or not, and whether the idea of one's crazy next door neighbor having liberty is frightening or not.

[PaulConventionWV]

Who is trying to shut people up?

Everyone who argues passionately that conspiracy theorists hurt the movement. They may not admit it, but the fact is that they don't like free speech, and if they could have people only speak in ways they approve, they would. The whole concept is an appeal to a central ideology, one which we, as a collective, do not necessarily possess. It's all about the desire to possess control over what people say and what others hear.

The solution is to simply realize that people cannot represent other people without their consent and to include this as part of your message.

[UWDude]

I find a bit of irony in someone on these boards saying that one person expressing a "shhh you'll hurt the movement" opinion is unacceptable,


The only thing this movement has ever had, was the freedom of ideas. It is a movement of ideas. Furthermore, it only grows on common ground.

That means, some people will need to hear about the end of the world, Armageddon, and the return of Jesus Christ, to wake up.
Do I believe in all that?
No.
But, I would never dream of telling them to shut up because it "will hurt the movement".
Because I know, there are ears, that can only hear that message.
So a right-wing christian convinced these are the end times is not some kooky, counter-productive proselytizer trying to use "the movement" as a spring board for their own Christian agenda.
If they are truly in love with the concepts of freedom, then they will speak to those of like minds, and mix the essential message of freedom with the message of the end of days.

[MelissaWV]

The only thing this movement has ever had, was the freedom of ideas. It is a movement of ideas. Furthermore, it only grows on common ground.

That means, some people will need to hear about the end of the world, Armageddon, and the return of Jesus Christ, to wake up.
Do I believe in all that?
No.
But, I would never dream of telling them to shut up because it "will hurt the movement".
Because I know, there are ears, that can only hear that message.
So a right-wing christian convinced these are the end times is not some kooky, counter-productive proselytizer trying to use "the movement" as a spring board for their own Christian agenda.
If they are truly in love with the concepts of freedom, then they will speak to those of like minds, and mix the essential message of freedom with the message of the end of days.

Someone can tell you to shut up, but the only person who can really silence you in that scenario... is you.

[green73]

I think its more damaging that a large percentage of the population are borderline retarded

Best comment I've read in a long time.

[PaulConventionWV]

That's probably an overstatement, but not much of one. You are completely right that Fox cost Ron Paul a bunch of primaries, and there have been shenanigans (such as when Louisiana combined all the other candidates into a 'coalition' in 2008) and possibly vote fraud. If there's a causal relationship here, it's Ron Paul doesn't 'play ball' and vote as he's told to, so he wins no primaries.



The trick, of course, is to do a good job rebutting the feeling in others. This isn't easy when the media is constantly playing its divide and conquer game, and telling people, 'See? You don't want to be associated with these other people.' On the other hand, there are people here who are here specifically because they were made to see the truth about, say, 9/11 and it made them mad enough to get off their duffs. So, I guess the thing to wish for is that we all become perfect, and perfectly able to ferret out what will make a person love liberty enough to fight for it and push just those particular buttons.

But in the end, our best strategy is to help everyone come to love liberty--be it messy or not, and whether the idea of one's crazy next door neighbor having liberty is frightening or not.

Precisely.

+rep

[UWDude]

Someone can tell you to shut up, but the only person who can really silence you in that scenario... is you.

Depends who controls the parks, or forums, or wherever else you are talking, eh?

[MelissaWV]

Depends who controls the parks, or forums, or wherever else you are talking, eh?

It's the internet. Even if a mod told you to shut up here, you realize you are not "silenced," right? There are other venues all over the place.

[UWDude]

It's the internet. Even if a mod told you to shut up here, you realize you are not "silenced," right? There are other venues all over the place.

I said parks too. Yup. It's more than the internet.

[gwax23]

Yes they do.

[MelissaWV]

I said parks too. Yup. It's more than the internet.

Then you should have mentioned it in the post I was responding to.


The only thing this movement has ever had, was the freedom of ideas. It is a movement of ideas. Furthermore, it only grows on common ground.

That means, some people will need to hear about the end of the world, Armageddon, and the return of Jesus Christ, to wake up.
Do I believe in all that?
No.
But, I would never dream of telling them to shut up because it "will hurt the movement".
Because I know, there are ears, that can only hear that message.
So a right-wing christian convinced these are the end times is not some kooky, counter-productive proselytizer trying to use "the movement" as a spring board for their own Christian agenda.
If they are truly in love with the concepts of freedom, then they will speak to those of like minds, and mix the essential message of freedom with the message of the end of days.

My response fit the post.

[jmdrake]

Movements need to move on.

Agreed.



That's what's causing most of the division right now. Some folks never believed anyone would win their election anyways, and the few that have will obviously just turn on us (and a subset of those folks are salivating, waiting for someone to vote "wrong" so they can post an article and preen about it). Some folks believed everyone would get elected THIS time, and did actually get a few people elected (but at what cost, both financially and philisophically). Some folks don't give a fig about the elections and mostly seem interested in a mixture of informing fellow forum members... and crying that the sky is falling (too many chemtrails). It's always been the makeup of the population on the forums, but now that the bulk are not focused on the same shiny object, it becomes more obvious how different we all are.


That we are a diverse mix has been obvious since before this forum even existed. That some people falsely claim that those who support this idea or that don't support the general goal of getting people elected to office is also obvious. And yes, it is a false claim. Everybody holds some position that might turn some segment of "likely republic voters" off. For some it's their support of gay marriage. For others it's their pro choice position. For others it's their view on the environment and global warming. Some are against corporate personhood. Some feel the need to re-fight the civil war. Some are anti organized religion. Some are anti-God period. Some want to make sure everyone knows what an evil communist womanizer Martin Luther King supposedly was. Each of those positions pisses off some portion of the electorate that we want to reach. But for some odd reason, it's only the "conspiracy theorists" that are the problem. Ummm....okay.

These divisions have always been their and have always been known about. The New York Times mentioned this in their article about Ron Paul back in 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22Paul-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This was before a single primary had been lost. This diversity has always been the strength and the weakness of the Ron Paul movement. It's a strength because it's hard otherwise to put together a group of people that agree with people like Dennis Kucinich about the wars and all civil liberties other than gun control, and who agree with people like Jim Demitt on fiscal responsibility, that the welfare state is bad for everyone including those "benefiting" from it, and the need to protect gun rights, the one civil liberty that liberals hate the most. (Liberals also like some forms of free speech and hate others. Same with conservatives. And I'm speaking in generalities here.)

When there is a focused goal of "raising millions for Ron Paul" it's easy to set aside differences and focus on the common goal. What's happening now is not much different from what happened in 2008/2009. There was fracturing then as well. Only then there was the possibility of Ron running again, and nobody considered the possibility of someone like Rand taking the mantle without adopting the same rhetoric.



The forum still does have a mission statement. It still does have moderators (most of which are not even moderating anymore, but are still complained about on a regular basis). There still are alternatives to it. There's still a market for a variety of sites that cater to different segments of the population that want to engage in certain kinds of discussions. I don't think anyone's really being silenced, and I find a bit of irony in someotne on these boards saying that one person expressing a "shhh you'll hurt the movement" opinion is unacceptable, because it silences the other person who has every right to say that the WTC was brought down by [insert theory].


Let me see if I understand you correctly. It's okay for someone to express his "shhhh you'll hurt the movement" opinion, but it's not acceptable for someone to express the opposite opinion? Only the OP has a right to express his opinion? Because...that's in effect what you are saying. Some of us think what the OP did was counter productive and only caused more discussion of what he supposedly didn't want talked about. Look at how long this thread is and compare it to the lengths of recent "conspiracy" threads. It's the forum version of "blowback". And it's just stupid. I finally got "yongrel" to see this truth years ago. (I kinda miss him). Others will eventually figure it out. Still others will stupidly keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.



It's time to reflect on what YOU want to happen next, and how YOU can help it happen. Will you run for office? Will you start prepping more seriously? Will you go completely off-grid? Will you support Rand? Thomas? Amash? Someone else? Will you toss your money at Ron and whatever new venture he captains? Will you continue to dig up stories (and be responsible enough to research them, and not post rumor as fact)? Will you find a pet cause and advocate for it? Will you find one injustice you can stop, maybe even on a local level, and rally to do just that? There are myriad things to do, and some of them are going to "look bad." It's time to stop linking everything back to one central movement, imo. The "crazy uncle" comparison is apt, but there's no direct blood relation.


There have been several positive threads about this. And in one a certain previous moderator started a flamewar with a certain current moderator because she took a mild criticism of the campaign by the current moderator and blew it way out of proportion. But yes, people realize that we have to move beyond the idea of getting Ron Paul elected or focusing solely on getting good people elected or focusing solely on elections period. I hope you realize that too.



So maybe, just maybe, I can hope that the fact I want people being held to rules they agree to abide by ... doesn't make me "Statist"? And that pointing out big glaring logic holes in folks' posts ... doesn't make me a Government plant/shill? Nah. Back to your regularly-scheduled game of "he started it." :(

Do you really understand the forum rules? Because "never talk about conspiracies" isn't one of them. In fact I saw forum admin Josh Lowry post a 9/11 conspiracy thread in general politics some months ago, though he (or someone) eventually moved it to hot topics. Since the beginning of this forum discussions of conspiracies (and anti/pro gay rights, and anti/pro abortion rights, and anti/pro religion, and anti/pro confederate states of America) have been allowed. Certain of those controversial discussion have been whisked to HT as soon as possible. Some controversial discussions seem more equal than others. But those who focus on "the mission statement" as a way to attack others for talking about what they don't want discussed aren't really looking at this realistically IMO.

People who want positive discussion should post positive threads. People who like flamewars should start threads like the OP. It's that simple.

Edit: I just realized I got this thread mixed up with another on. The OP in this was was looking for interviews for his radio show. The OP in the other thread was actively trying to "shsshh" people. The OP in this thread was actively looking for discussion, so I guess he got what he wanted.

Edit 2: But MelissaVW, since you claim to care about the forum rules, does it concern you that the OP actually broke a well known rule by starting a conspiracy theory thread in General Politics instead of hot topics?

[jmdrake]

It's the internet. Even if a mod told you to shut up here, you realize you are not "silenced," right? There are other venues all over the place.

True. And people can tell folks like the OP to "shut up" and he's not really silenced either. And people can point out to the OP that if what he really wants is less conspiracy discussion, he's going about it the wrong way. But he's free to be counterproductive. So are you.

[acptulsa]

Mr. Drake, you said some good and thoughtful things in your posts, but perhaps your best contribution to this thread is in your sig.


"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

One man's trash is another man's treasure, as they say. All the liberal selling points are selling points. Liberty is messy. Send five organizations into Ethiopia to end the starvation and you invariably wind up with one or more of those treading on each other's efforts, duplicating each other's efforts, reinventing the wheel that another group has just reinvented. Results are often hard to measure. Liberty is messy. But out of that mess comes brilliant solutions that central planning either doesn't think of, or is afraid to try because sending a group off to work on something unproven and experimental could waste their time--and ordering people to waste their time when they're set on doing some good could lead to mutiny. That's why the Soviet Union was never known for innovation and the U.S, once upon a time, was.

No doubt we'd like to be a monolith that rolls over the countryside, converting people en masse and never setting a foot wrong. That we can never be. The world is full of individuals, and it does take different strokes to win over different folks. So, perhaps we should learn to embrace this? No?

The mass media has its advantages, it has its strengths. It also has its weaknesses. That's why The Monolith invented Fox News. There was a certain segment of the population that had gotten completely sick of the anti-Archie Bunker narrative. We are not Mass Media. We in no way resemble a steamroller. We get forced into dealing with people on an individual basis. It ain't quick. But you know what? It's working for us.

People hate 9/11 Truthers. Well, sure they do. Who wants to hear bad news? Who wouldn't want to shoot the messenger? But at the same time, when you show someone that the official narrative of that day doesn't add up, and they finally see it and know it, they become some of this movement's stalwarts. Necessity is the mother of invention, and we have been these last six years (some of us more) inventing new ways to sell people on something that shouldn't need selling--liberty. Or to put it another way, we invent new ways to undo the propaganda brain washing, ways that don't work for everyone but do work for some. The media has to craft their mass message, and that message can only evolve slowly. The 'you're with us or you're weird' method only allows for the message to change so fast, and that isn't fast at all, but slow. If we push the right buttons, we can wake people who stay awake. And if we cheerfully admit that freedom is messy, but point out that only from that mess can true innovation spring, we have much less to worry about when it comes to pressing the agenda forward.

In collectivism, you have to sell everyone, or fifty-one percent of everyone, on an idea before you even get a chance to try it out. We don't. There's a weakness in the MSM monolith for us to exploit, and a strength we can call our very own.

[John F Kennedy III]

I would be really careful using the whole "Ron Paul does this and he hasn't won any primaries" argument. What's ironic is that we are discussing conspiracies (theories, facts, whatever), and we use that argument even though we know the very fact that Ron Paul hasn't won any primaries could be the result of a conspiracy. I happen to think it's been pretty well-demonstrated that this happened. There's no doubt that the media had an effect on his support among average joes.

Correlation does not equal causation, especially when there are only two cases available to study. No relationship can be established. "Ron Paul does this" and "Ron Paul doesn't win any primaries" may be facts, but they have no established relationship, strong or weak. They are exclusive.

Do you look at my sig? They flat out stole the nomination from Dr. Paul. In a fair fight he'd be President Elect right now.

[cybermonk]

9/11 truthers are not part of a conspiracy! They are part of the truth! The phrase "conspiracy theorists" implies that they are theorizing about the true events that took place. In all actuality they are not theorizing anything. They are simply finding more facts about what happened. If more facts are found why not allow a transparent study of them? The reason is simple: to hide the real truth and stick to the official story that was championed by executive elite, NWO officials, investors Lloyd Goldman, Joseph Cayre, and Larry Silverstein.

News flash: The American people do not trust them and for the right reasons. It is time to recognize the power of intuition. We all have to take a closer look at who profited monetarily from the accident. Larry already made a Billion from the collapse just off of insurance (not including any other looted goods and/or market manipulations). Also important to note how aggressively Larry Silverstein went after the money for both policies he had worked his way into, edited, and took out. http://articles.cnn.com/2004-04-29/justice/attacks.insurance_1_single-occurrence-larry-silverstein-swiss-reinsurance?_s=PM:LAW There were also large amounts of gold stolen from the towers in the weeks before the attacks and the security company, Securacom backed by KuwAm, was owned by Marvin Bush. The lease was purchased by the Silverstein Group for $3.2 billion that same year. WTC Insurance Payout Totaled $4.55 Billion. "This is a dream come true," Larry Silverstein said. "We will be in control of a prized asset, and we will seek to develop its potential, raising it to new heights." This also immediately allowed our government to change the headquarters for the FBI and CIA and "wipe the slate clean" so to speak. There was a HUGE amount of data and intelligence that was not backed up offsite that simply demolished with the towers. All of the old timer CIA and FBI officials were stationed in the towers that day some of which were in Tower 7. http://rememberbuilding7.org/ http://wtc7.net/ With all that being said, look at when it happened in our financial history! Please watch this video and let me know what you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJBRzBusfc8. It was simply the beginning of the looting of our federal reserve system by foreigners and domestic terrorists alike. American's deserve to know the full truth. We have also recently learned that a scud missile hit the Pentagon thanks to declassified documents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRK8QFvXyfE Time to wake up and turn off the TV people. These people are serious about their blood money. We should be too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvay28lZiHUWe Listen to the messages of each of the people individually and a coverup is simply undeniable. Beware the bearers of false gifts and their broken promises!

[idiom]

American's deserve to know the full truth. We have also recently learned that a scud missile hit the Pentagon thanks to declassified documents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRK8QFvXyfE

See that right there. What is that? Is that a link to a pdf with declassified documents of DOD investigations concluding that the impactor was a scud missile? It looks that way in the way the link was presented.

No. Its a link two two frames of a security video that are blurry as anything. You claimed specific knowledge of the impactor. You didn't have it. That's fraud. A.k.a. lying.

I don't think it hurts the movement. But I think it hurts you personally. At best it makes you look like an idiot. At worst it looks like you are trying to deceive.

You talk about truth but you have no idea what that even means.

[Travlyr]

See that right there. What is that? Is that a link to a pdf with declassified documents of DOD investigations concluding that the impactor was a scud missile? It looks that way in the way the link was presented.

No. Its a link two two frames of a security video that are blurry as anything. You claimed specific knowledge of the impactor. You didn't have it. That's fraud. A.k.a. lying.

I don't think it hurts the movement. But I think it hurts you personally. At best it makes you look like an idiot. At worst it looks like you are trying to deceive.

You talk about truth but you have no idea what that even means.
It does not look like an airplane to me.

[donnay]

There's literally no evidence that Al Qaeda is/was a CIA trained and supplied organization. That all stems from the fact the US government helped arm Afghan Mujahideen during the soviet war. It's really frustrating to see people tout this as some kind of fact when there's just NO evidence of it.

Top Ranking CIA Operatives Admit Al-qaeda Is a Complete Fabrication

BBC’s killer documentary called “The Power of Nightmares“. Top CIA officials openly admit, Al-qaeda is a total and complete fabrication, never having existed at any time. The Bush administration needed a reason that complied with the Laws so they could go after “the bad guy of their choice” namely laws that had been set in place to protect us from mobs and “criminal organizations” such as the Mafia. They paid Jamal al Fadl, hundreds of thousands of dollars to back the U.S. Government’s story of Al-qaeda, a “group” or criminal organization they could “legally” go after.

http://polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operatives-admit-al-qaeda-is-a-complete-fabrication.html


Unraveling the Myth of Al Qaida
http://www.globalresearch.ca/unraveling-the-myth-of-al-qaida/7787

Al Qaeda and the “War on Terrorism”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-and-the-war-on-terrorism/7718

Hillary Clinton Admits the U.S. Government Created al-Qaeda
http://www.dailypaul.com/235730/hillary-clinton-admits-the-us-government-created-al-qaeda?page=1

Al Qaeda Links
http://tvnewslies.org/html/al_qaeda_links.html

[acptulsa]

It does not look like an airplane to me.

Indeed not. It is more than a cause for reasonable doubt. But it is not, as represented, positive proof that the building was hit by, specifically, a SCUD missile. And, indeed, the notion that our government used a SCUD missile for anything at all is ridiculous on the face of it. So is the idea that the Twin Towers were hit with missiles that had hologram generators on board to make it look like they had airplane wings.

It's one of the older tricks in the book. Something is done, people look for the truth and begin to offer theories that better fit the facts, someone (who is either dumb or a COINTEL professional) offers a perfectly ridiculous theory, certain dumb people pick up on it (perhaps because it's the sexiest explanation yet) and spread it around, and intelligent people hear it and roll their eyes. These last people could have been convinced, or at least could have bugan to harbor seeds of doubt, but roll their eyes instead. And if these same idiots are kind enough to end their presentation of a severely flawed theory as fact with, 'And that's why we need to vote for Ron Paul!' then, yes, the movement is damaged. The only thing that keeps the thread title from being a yes or no question with an obvious answer of 'yes' is the phrasing--conspiracy theorists who go off half cocked do damage the liberty movement. If they had any brains, they'd refrain--at least until the powers that be paid them to do what they do.

Everyone has had either a Christian or an antheist prostelytize them. I include both Christians and Atheists because people are bound to find one more irritating than the other. These people have Faith, so they present stuff that isn't scientifically proven as fact. Now, they're free to believe, and they're free to share, but just as soon as they insist theory is fact they become bothersome. The same is true of conspiracy theorists. The successful ones stick to presenting irrefutable holes in the official story, and irrefutable facts that don't add up to the official story.

All one has to prove is that there are very good reasons to have reasonable doubts.

[idiom]

It does not look like an airplane to me.

A SCUD has a ballistic (Up n Down) trajectory and the very latest are doing extremely well to get within 100m of their target. They have zero ability to fly horizontally and follow terrain.

Still waiting on those declassified documents identifying it specifically as a SCUD.

I am not taking issue with the possibility of it not being a plane. I am taking issue with people who flat out lie to get attention.

[donnay]

I've been listening to A.J. for many years, on and off. Mostly for entertainment purposes/to pass time when I'm playing videogames and I get sick of neo-cons, and I don't want to listen to the regular sound from the game.

While I think he is sincere in many respects, and a talented broadcaster, I get tired very quickly of the endless, complicated evil schemes he believes the government is undertaking around the world. I believe he gives the government way more credit (not to mention assumes they are way more efficient) than they actually deserve or are. I don't necessarily have a big problem with most of these things, but many of his medical/pharma conspiracy theories are truly repulsive. Some examples:

- Vaccines cause autism? He's still pushing this garbage even after many, many reputable medical and public health journals have shown this to be a farce? Does he realize this has consequences or does he simply not care if previously eradicated third world diseases become more common in children? If you don't want to vaccinate your kid, that is your right. But if you are going to use some ridiculously schizo-like paranoid theory to encourage others not to do so, that's where I speak out.

- The way he hocks multi-vitamins as cures for inveterate diseases (he actually had some guy on there claim that he cured a man with Madcow disease using the "Alex Pack" - a combo of Omega 3, multivitamins, and glucosamine/chondroitin. (The human "form" of so-called madcow disease is called Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease - which is universally fatal and not diagnosed until autopsy). This was so disgusting to me I actually almost tried calling in to the show to argue with the quack he had on there. Imagine if a little vitamin C and fish oil could cure an illness the best neurologists and infectious disease physicians and researchers in the world have known and been working to treat for almost 100 years!) Simply amazing to me. Of course, he could have been misdiagnosed by an actual MD as opposed to the Veterinary pathologist (not joking) who pushes these products, something tells me the story is a complete fraud but then again I am cynical. There are probably many other examples outside of health. I'm particularly entertained by his oft-used script:



Wow, talk about distorting the truth? Can you cite your source. Maybe while playing video games you didn't hear Dr. Wallach correctly?

Prion diseases such as Creutzfeldt-Jakob or "mad cow" disease, and also Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease are related to the accumulation of wrongly folded and entangled prion proteins. It has now been shown that this may be due to a copper deficiency in the brain, and that copper stabilises prions and helps them to fold correctly (7).

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/copper.html

Other sources:
http://www.health-science-spirit.com/copper.html
http://www.soilminerals.com/information.htm
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=20010801000231

[John F Kennedy III]

It does not look like an airplane to me.

I've seen the footage many times. It's NOT a commercial airliner. It's:

1. A small private plane

2. Some type of missile

3. Something else tiny that makes that flash and ball of fire on impact.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

The net of "conspiracy theorist" has been drawn so large as to question any rational persons thoughts and criticisms.

Even bringing up things like the TSA has gotten me labeled conspiracy theorist... It's being used as a way to demonize thinking men.

[TheTexan]

Even bringing up things like the TSA has gotten me labeled conspiracy theorist... It's being used as a way to demonize thinking men.

And that's exactly their intent:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Hj-Y6o6ec

They have constructed a two-word tool to instantly and immediately discredit anybody who presents an idea contrary to any official story. This was their design. To silence anybody who questions the official story. Any official story.

[John F Kennedy III]

The net of "conspiracy theorist" has been drawn so large as to question any rational persons thoughts and criticisms.

Even bringing up things like the TSA has gotten me labeled conspiracy theorist... It's being used as a way to demonize thinking men.

Exactly. Fuck everybody that uses that term against someone, they're all dirty piece of shit Statists.

[John F Kennedy III]

And that's exactly their intent:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Hj-Y6o6ec

They have constructed a two-word tool to instantly and immediately discredit anybody who presents an idea contrary to any official story. This was their design. To silence anybody who questions the official story. Any official story.

+rep to you sir :)

[PaulConventionWV]

Do you look at my sig? They flat out stole the nomination from Dr. Paul. In a fair fight he'd be President Elect right now.

No, I hadn't seen that. Thanks for pointing it out. I am sure what you say is true, although I still don't know the extent to which the whole thing was altered. I am certain it was a very significant amount, but it is indeed possible that that is an understatement.

[paulbot24]

(glancing at some shill in a uniform) "These guys are the kind of people that think Elvis is dead." - Fox Mulder from the X-Files:D On a serious note, think about it:

If this world wasn't a a giant conspiracy you wouldn't have a few families owning a third of the globe and the rest of us magically in the chains of their organized tyranny. WTF people!!! These "accidents" do not just happen.

[cybermonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wLTcusT8IE&feature=share

Here is something else for you to watch idiom and anyone else who thinks that their visual reality on 9/11/2001 wasn't manipulated in some way! No fraud in telling the truth about what you find! When was the last time you heard anything like that discussed on the mainstream news around September?

[papitosabe]

absolutely they hurt the liberty movement...and I'm sure there are shills paid to deliberately do this...look at different forums and they're on both sides...some will just mock and attack just about anything liberty oriented...and then if you talk about other issues, they will slowly diverge it somehow to abortion, gay rights, entitlements, etc etc... they don't want you talking about the corporations, or the military industrial complex, etc etc.....I was even told by a moderator in another forum that there are members that just create different acctts (with the same IP address) to argue points ... I'm sure they're paid, but have no proof... they just go around several forums and create bullshit arguments and spew misinformation...after a while, it gets pretty obvious

then you have the ones that say they're RP/liberty guys that sound good for the most part, but then dilute everything with zombie apocolypses, reptilian underground satanic elites that run the world, etc etc.... there are a few sites I'm on and its the same people over and over, and that is all they do...

[jmdrake]

absolutely they hurt the liberty movement...and I'm sure there are shills paid to deliberately do this...look at different forums and they're on both sides...some will just mock and attack just about anything liberty oriented...and then if you talk about other issues, they will slowly diverge it somehow to abortion, gay rights, entitlements, etc etc... they don't want you talking about the corporations, or the military industrial complex, etc etc.....I was even told by a moderator in another forum that there are members that just create different acctts (with the same IP address) to argue points ... I'm sure they're paid, but have no proof... they just go around several forums and create bullshit arguments and spew misinformation...after a while, it gets pretty obvious

then you have the ones that say they're RP/liberty guys that sound good for the most part, but then dilute everything with zombie apocolypses, reptilian underground satanic elites that run the world, etc etc.... there are a few sites I'm on and its the same people over and over, and that is all they do...

Mmmmmm....okay. ^That has to be the most disjointed, incoherent, inaccurate and illogical post I've ever read. Conspiracy theorists want to talk about abortion and gay marriage and they don't want to talk about corporations or the military industrial complex? Are you serious or trolling?

[papitosabe]

Mmmmmm....okay. ^That has to be the most disjointed, incoherent, inaccurate and illogical post I've ever read. Conspiracy theorists want to talk about abortion and gay marriage and they don't want to talk about corporations or the military industrial complex? Are you serious or trolling?

sorry, late, and I'm out of it.... didn't mean that..just saying that IMO, there are shills out there that act as conspiracy theorists...and there are some out there, that try to diverge topics so as to get both sides, dems/reps, side tracked, and talking about the not so important topics such as abortion, gay marriage, etc etc..... hope that made better or any sense yet...sorry, haven't slept yet...

[idiom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wLTcusT8IE&feature=share

Here is something else for you to watch idiom and anyone else who thinks that their visual reality on 9/11/2001 wasn't manipulated in some way! No fraud in telling the truth about what you find! When was the last time you heard anything like that discussed on the mainstream news around September?

http://i.imgur.com/2YSMR.gif

That is not what you were claiming. There is a world of difference between:

"I think the video recordings of 9/11 and what people witnessed were manipulated in some way"

and

"This declassified document identifies the weapon that hit the pentagon as a Russian SCUD missile somehow modified for surface skimming"

As for the video.... oh dear.

a) it is irrelevant to your argument
b) whoever posted it misrepresents it in the title, claiming it is about passport issuance which it is not.
c) the content of the video is not only part of the official story it has been the subject of hololywood movies like Charlie Wilsons War and Green Zone.

[vita3]

Really enjoyed reading ex FBI translators, Sibel Edmonds, book "Classified Women" over Christmas break. She documents all the people & specific evidence she discovered whcih allowed the 911 attacks to take place. When you add other creditable whistleblowers like Coleen Rowley, Robert Wright, Michael Springman & Col. Anthony Schaffer etc..it's obvious that at the very least people inside our Gov. allowed 911 to happen.

This could absolutely be proven with their testimony if there was a Federal Judge who was on the up & up re: Law & Justice.

[jmdrake]

I want to thank the OP for keeping 9/11 truth on the main forum by starting this thread on the main forum regarding whether or not conspiracy theories hurt the liberty movement. A conspiracy theorist never would have been able to get away with this.

[DonovanJames]

I love this country just as much as anyone else. I love my freedom, our quality of life and the access to luxuries that we embellish in on a daily basis. I love this country so much that I believe it is a harmful to not question those which would scour the reputation of such a great country with nefarious practices.

I would 100% believe the investigative report for 9/11 if all the glaringly obvious questions asked, were answered with facts. In our Court system, a man is innocent until absolutely proven guilty - testimony, evidence, argument from both sides, review from your peers, and lastly nonobjective conclusion is met. We call that due process and hold it sacred (Use too I guess) but when you question anything regarding the Government it deems you a conspiracy theorist.

We've got a 24/7 media that can collar the beast of Public Opinion and the current is that asking anything about Building 7 will put you in the same category as a terrorist, un-American, a nut. I see it as being patriotic. If there is still a chance, until proven otherwise, that the people responsible for the lives of 3000 Americans (Not including the subsequent wars to follow) are still walking among us; do you not owe it to those lives to bring them to justice?

Silence is the biggest disservice here.

[jmdrake]

I love this country just as much as anyone else. I love my freedom, our quality of life and the access to luxuries that we embellish in on a daily basis. I love this country so much that I believe it is a harmful to not question those which would scour the reputation of such a great country with nefarious practices.

I would 100% believe the investigative report for 9/11 if all the glaringly obvious questions asked, were answered with facts. In our Court system, a man is innocent until absolutely proven guilty - testimony, evidence, argument from both sides, review from your peers, and lastly nonobjective conclusion is met. We call that due process and hold it sacred (Use too I guess) but when you question anything regarding the Government it deems you a conspiracy theorist.

We've got a 24/7 media that can collar the beast of Public Opinion and the current is that asking anything about Building 7 will put you in the same category as a terrorist, un-American, a nut. I see it as being patriotic. If there is still a chance, until proven otherwise, that the people responsible for the lives of 3000 Americans (Not including the subsequent wars to follow) are still walking among us; do you not owe it to those lives to bring them to justice?

Silence is the biggest disservice here.

Here's the crazy thing about those who wish to silence the "conspiracy theorists". They've turned "innocent until proven guilty" on it's head. Because the government says OBL is/was the "guilty party" and he did it all by himself along with his fellow "caveman conspirators", that counts as "proof". If you question the official story or *gasp* go so far as to say somebody inside the government at least knew something, you are "finding the government guilty" and the government must be deemed "innocent until proven guilty". When did the government become a "person" so that "innocent until proven guilty" even applies? I guess all of the government secrecy is constitutional protected to because the government, as a fictitious legal person, has a right not to testify against itself?

Oh, they'll throw in a couple of crappy videos with dubious interpretations where OBL supposedly "took credit" for the attacks, while ignoring the places where he denied responsibility, but hey, it doesn't matter right?

[vita3]

I love this country just as much as anyone else. I love my freedom, our quality of life and the access to luxuries that we embellish in on a daily basis. I love this country so much that I believe it is a harmful to not question those which would scour the reputation of such a great country with nefarious practices.

I would 100% believe the investigative report for 9/11 if all the glaringly obvious questions asked, were answered with facts. In our Court system, a man is innocent until absolutely proven guilty - testimony, evidence, argument from both sides, review from your peers, and lastly nonobjective conclusion is met. We call that due process and hold it sacred (Use too I guess) but when you question anything regarding the Government it deems you a conspiracy theorist.

We've got a 24/7 media that can collar the beast of Public Opinion and the current is that asking anything about Building 7 will put you in the same category as a terrorist, un-American, a nut. I see it as being patriotic. If there is still a chance, until proven otherwise, that the people responsible for the lives of 3000 Americans (Not including the subsequent wars to follow) are still walking among us; do you not owe it to those lives to bring them to justice?

Silence is the biggest disservice here.

Great post.

[ProBlue33]

It hurts it, and I say that as truther. I think we are talking primarily about 9/11 when we talk about conspiracy theorists as that is the real big one.

There is a saying "Discretion is the better part of valor" and I feel that to be true with 9/11 truth.
I feel Ron Paul truth and 9/11 truth is just too much for most people to absorb at the same time, sure some rare people can, but most have a cognitive dissonance thing going on, it's massive overload. But sometimes it works in reverse it was 9/11 truth that I discovered in the fall of 2006 that made me so receptive to Ron Pauls message the very next year. When before I would have thought he was nuts, like many neo-cons.

Understanding 9/11 is the epiphany that changed my world view, from a pro-American neo-con to Ron Pauls message being the only one that made sense now.
But because the reversal is so profound it needs to be left alone, while trying to get the message of liberty out without getting it discounted as coming from wacko's.

I have no doubt that as some people come to accept what Ron Paul is saying is the basic truth, it will inevitably lead them to question the events of 9/11.
The interview on Ron Paul on 9/11 in his 2008 election run sums it up...

"I can't handle the controversy" and "I've got enough on my plate already".
Promoters of liberty would be wise to heed that advise, so I never mix the too together. Except for on this forum, because posters are generally already all the way there, or half way there anyway.

Thus I post this 5 minute video, which every supporter of Ron Paul should watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ehODNeJ-OGY

[AuH20]

Really enjoyed reading ex FBI translators, Sibel Edmonds, book "Classified Women" over Christmas break. She documents all the people & specific evidence she discovered whcih allowed the 911 attacks to take place. When you add other creditable whistleblowers like Coleen Rowley, Robert Wright, Michael Springman & Col. Anthony Schaffer etc..it's obvious that at the very least people inside our Gov. allowed 911 to happen.

This could absolutely be proven with their testimony if there was a Federal Judge who was on the up & up re: Law & Justice.

If there was indeed government malice, it was because select elements likely LET IT HAPPEN. All the internal demo theories and other lunacy, I beleive is being spewed forth by government sponsored sources to cover their tracks. I've always suspected the truther movement had too many strange individuals in it's stead. Infiltrated right at the start.

[vita3]

"If there was indeed government malice, it was because select elements likely LET IT HAPPEN"

They certainly LET IT HAPPEN @ a minimum & like I wrote before this could be proven in a Court of Law. Problem is all 911 cases are going to two Federal Judges, who are not interested in facts & truths.

(Judge Alvin Hellerstein & Judge Reggie Walton)

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

JFK posted a great documentary the other day and I'm paraphrasing one part where David Icke points out that the word conspiracy has been ridiculed to the point that it doesn't matter if it's real or not, people automatically disbelieve it. I'm paraphrasing of course. The fact is the government has already admitted to false flags in the past, one of the most recent being fast & furious. So why would one of the most strange events in American history have 0 chance of being a false flag?

When I was in middle school 9/11 happened, and I found it very strange that they already had compiled a list of all the "terrorists" who were on the planes. What the hell? How did they know Osama Bin Laden planned it all along the moment it happened? THEN Obama claims Osama is dead, but there's not ONE shred of EVIDENCE that the man is dead. My bullshit alarm has been going off for 12 years.

[UWDude]

Conspiracy theory is such a loaded word, that many people are told the creature from Jekyll Island is a conspiracy, and that if you talk about the Federal reserve, you are a conspiracy theorist.

And indeed, if peopel didn't talk about the federal reserve, eventually, it would be labeled whacko conspiracy theory, and dismissed out of hand, even though it is in plain sight and documented true.

The only reason why the federal Reserve has not been outcast to conspiracy theory land is because people hate paying taxes, so they are open to explanations of the monetary system.

But I assure you, go tot the JREF forums, and you'll see, many of those people, "skeptics" consider the Federal reserve to be a conspiracy theory.

[idiom]

There is the 'The Federal Reserve is fleecing Americans and exacerbating the business cycle at the behest of big bankers' and there is 'The Federal Reserve is designed, used and owned by alien intelligences to control the planet.

Both are conspiracy theories. One has documentation.

[DamianTV]

Conspiracy Theorists dont hurt anyone.
Conspirators hurt everyone.

[John F Kennedy III]

If there was indeed government malice, it was because select elements likely LET IT HAPPEN. All the internal demo theories and other lunacy, I beleive is being spewed forth by government sponsored sources to cover their tracks. I've always suspected the truther movement had too many strange individuals in it's stead. Infiltrated right at the start.

How did the 3 towers come down?

[idiom]

How did the 3 towers come down?

See, this is where you can go to ways. You can say 'I don't know, but I don't think the official story explains it', or you can claim special knowledge as to exactly how they came down, which individuals were involved and how they did it, and why.

I prefer to keep finding new questions rather than preaching answers that came to me in my sleep.

[AuH20]

How did the 3 towers come down?

Silverstein took down Building 7 since the structural integrity was compromised.

[UWDude]

There is the 'The Federal Reserve is fleecing Americans and exacerbating the business cycle at the behest of big bankers' and there is 'The Federal Reserve is designed, used and owned by alien intelligences to control the planet.

Both are conspiracy theories. One has documentation.

Go to the James Randi Educational Foundation forums with the first one. The "skeptics" will call you a conspiracy theorist. Guarantee it.

[AGRP]

Silverstein took down Building 7 since the structural integrity was compromised.

You also spread disinformation?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

There is the 'The Federal Reserve is fleecing Americans and exacerbating the business cycle at the behest of big bankers' and there is 'The Federal Reserve is designed, used and owned by alien intelligences to control the planet.

Both are conspiracy theories. One has documentation.
http://worldonline.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2012/12/08/im-not-saying-its-aliens-but-its-aliens_t640.jpg

[Petar]

http://worldonline.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2012/12/08/im-not-saying-its-aliens-but-its-aliens_t640.jpg

Oh shit, that never gets old...

[idiom]

Go to the James Randi Educational Foundation forums with the first one. The "skeptics" will call you a conspiracy theorist. Guarantee it.

It is a conspiracy theory. It happens to be about an actual conspiracy.

Some people won't go in the rabbit hole at all. Some wander as far in as the evidence leads. Some get to the bottom of the hole and keep digging.

The latter make it really hard to get the first group to go into the hole at all.

[angelatc]

It is a conspiracy theory. It happens to be about an actual conspiracy.

Some people won't go in the rabbit hole at all. Some wander as far in as the evidence leads. Some get to the bottom of the hole and keep digging.

The latter make it really hard to get the first group to go into the hole at all.

Part of the problem is that everything is a conspiracy to some of us. Somebody goes nuts with a gun? Conspiracy. Nobody can ever be crazy - no - the whole world is a conspiracy. THey want to kill us with vaccines, drugs that save lives are actually evil, and the doctors are all in on it. They're spraying chemicals in the skies, they control the weather and they are sending us subliminal messages through the internet.

And they can make energy from nothing.

[idiom]

If you believe that a highly organised and efficient group of people can manage a large country with nothing more than a little smooth propaganda for over a hundred years, then you might as well be a socialist.

Except that these highly efficient global managers are also malicious and evil. Thus they should be opposed by individualists.

I think this is the point that so called 'conspiracy theorists' join forces with non-'conspiracy theorists' (I guess) who don't believe that large organisations can be as efficient as the theories require.



This is a fundamental divide in the demographics of the 'liberty movement'. Whether extremely large highly efficient organisations can control a country or the world for an extended period of time is a fundamental disagreement.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Part of the problem is that everything is a conspiracy to some of us. Somebody goes nuts with a gun? Conspiracy. Nobody can ever be crazy - no - the whole world is a conspiracy. THey want to kill us with vaccines, drugs that save lives are actually evil, and the doctors are all in on it. They're spraying chemicals in the skies, they control the weather and they are sending us subliminal messages through the internet.

And they can make energy from nothing.
The lack of critical thinking is astounding.

[Bastiat's The Law]

If there was indeed government malice, it was because select elements likely LET IT HAPPEN. All the internal demo theories and other lunacy, I beleive is being spewed forth by government sponsored sources to cover their tracks. I've always suspected the truther movement had too many strange individuals in it's stead. Infiltrated right at the start.
A conspiracy within a conspiracy.