I told you people so...

[Anti Federalist]

My only major disagreement with Ron Paul.

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?

[CaptUSA]

My only major disagreement with Ron Paul.

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?I'd counter that freedom is popular, but perhaps fear is more popular. At least for now. There will come a time when people's fears and lust for freedom will align. That day is rapidly approaching.

[Kotin]

I think when properly understood, it is very very popular.. therein lies the real problem.

[Cody1]

Nothing has happened yet, but I have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

I feel like my sks, .38, and 9mm are all on the chopping block now from the psychotic control freak lefties that run our country. My own mom is giving me worried looks now and is actually questioning the motive behind me buying these firearms. I just want to be left alone. Control freaks.

Control freaks

I stopped watching the news yesterday, the left wing agenda is so overbearing right now. Even here in South Carolina, a "red state" the gun control advocates are coming out of the wood work.

"Why do you need deadly assault weapons for hunting?"

"for hunting?"

Yes. My 1950's Chinese Type 56 rifle with a fixed10 round magazine and iron sights is a deadly assault weapon. JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!

[TonySutton]

just be thankful we are not a direct democracy

[Cody1]

just be thankful we are not a direct democracy

We sure as hell act like one.

Even Republicans were hating on RP supporters during the primaries for their delegate totals saying we were "violating the will of the people".

Im starting to feel cornered on this one.

[Acala]

I think when properly understood, it is very very popular.. therein lies the real problem.

Agreed.

[Brian4Liberty]

My only major disagreement with Ron Paul.

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?

It seems that human nature is "freedom for me is good, freedom for you is good when you agree with me". That is especially popular with totalitarians.

[otherone]

Gotta go with AF on this one. People want self-governance, not Freedom. Or at least the illusion of self-governance. Ron Paul was right...people don't know what freedom is...

[sailingaway]

My only major disagreement with Ron Paul.

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?

I think freedom is popular but people don't have the information they need to analyze reality in a controlled media. That is easy to see with other countries, harder with your own if it is special interest controlled rather than government controlled.

I also think people are worn down and give up when they think the other side holds all the cards.

Not sure what to do about THAT, either, though.

But Ron's message catches on like wildfire when people get it. Not with everyone, but we have all seen it.

[jcannon98188]

As always, I agree 100% with AF. +rep

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

Freedom is very popular it is just that most people are very confused as to what it actually is.

[brushfire]

Other people's freedom is not popular... I think an individual's freedom is popular - its all perception.

"Why the fk should I care about someone's right to own a gun? I've never even shot a gun."

"Why would I care about the USPA? They can listen to me all day. I dont do anything wrong"

"They should do what they do in Singapore. They should kill that guy for having weed on him"

There is also the media prizm that skews these perceptions. If I went by the media's account of society, I'd think I was the only freedom lover in the world. Still, every time I go to any event, I see tons of like minded individuals. I later watch the same event, if it even makes the news, and I see that prism.

We do have our work cut out for us, but there are many who are starting to realize that they must respect other people's rights, if they are to retain their own.

[EBounding]

People love to be comfortable. They find comfort in the police state, but they won't call it that. It's going to be up to us to persuade people that you'll be more comfortable with individual liberty. This is a tall order since people, for instance, are OK with being molested at the airport "as long as it's quick".

[Anti Federalist]

To all who wrote: "freedom is popular but not understood", I understand where you are coming from, I really do.

I just think it is too late.

They told us to sacrifice liberty for security.

They told us that was "civilized" and "progressive".

They told us we would be "safe".

But warnings from history told us otherwise, that when you sacrificed liberty for security you would get neither.

We ignored those warnings, and now, here we are, living in a nation that the chief executive has claimed the right to strip your rights as a citizen and "render" you to God knows where for torture and execution, simply by his say so, where the massive surveillance apparatus is announced and ignored on a daily basis, where NSA, DIA, DHS and God only knows what other alphabet soup agencies create dossiers and files on every single person, monitor every single communication, and hold what you say and do against you, where agents of government routinely grope and frisk innocent children, and police kill us and our pets with impunity.

We sacrificed liberty, it's gone, and in return...nothing.

Nothing but authoritarianism.

We sit and cringe every time something like this happens, because the default reaction, the immediate response from our rulers is: "more freedom must be taken away".

Well, for fuck's sake, how much more freedom do you want?

Schools are already prisons for all intents and purposes, do you think that is going to improve or change?

Take our guns?

Go ahead, they are pretty worthless in a population that is too timid to aim them and engage in the right direction.

Put us under surveillance?

We already are.

[Lucille]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-17/newtown-shooting-syndrome-troubled-society


In a concerning shift of sentiment, a majority of Americans, based on a new WaPo-ABC poll, now see the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary as a sign of broader problems in society (as opposed to an 'isolated' incident). While there remains widespread - and intense - opposition to banning the sale of handgunds in general (though high-capacity ammo clip restrictions are just as broadly despised), from the 2007 Virgina Tech shootings to this year's Aurora theater massacre, the poll results below suggest societal problems are becoming ever more critical in our nation's thinking.

Washington Post-ABC News Poll
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postabcpoll_20121216.html


This Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted by telephone Dec. 13-16, 2012

Do you favor or oppose stricter gun control laws in this country?

Would you support or oppose a law requiring a nationwide ban on [ITEM]?

What do you think is the best way to reduce gun violence in this country - (by passing stricter gun control laws), or (by stricter enforcement of existing laws)? [biased, leading question much?]

Thinking about the shooting at a Connecticut elementary school: Do you think this shooting reflects broader problems in American society, or are things like this just the isolated acts of troubled individuals?

[heavenlyboy34]

My only major disagreement with Ron Paul.

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again. :( The "freedom for me but not for thee" mindset is as popular now as ever. Bad news if you're seriously interested in liberty.

[CaptUSA]

Deep breaths, AF. Deep breaths.

We all feel this frustration. Everytime anything in the world happens, we expect them to take more freedom away. It's what they do.

But we have a small army of individuals all over the country and all over the world. They cannot get us all.

[heavenlyboy34]

To all who wrote: "freedom is popular but not understood", I understand where you are coming from, I really do.

I just think it is too late.

They told us to sacrifice liberty for security.

They told us that was "civilized" and "progressive".

They told us we would be "safe".

But warnings from history told us otherwise, that when you sacrificed liberty for security you would get neither.

We ignored those warnings, and now, here we are, living in a nation that the chief executive has claimed the right to strip your rights as a citizen and "render" you to God knows where for torture and execution, simply by his say so, where the massive surveillance apparatus is announced and ignored on a daily basis, where NSA, DIA, DHS and God only knows what other alphabet soup agencies create dossiers and files on every single person, monitor every single communication, and hold what you say and do against you, where agents of government routinely grope and frisk innocent children, and police kill us and our pets with impunity.

We sacrificed liberty, it's gone, and in return...nothing.

Nothing but authoritarianism.

We sit and cringe every time something like this happens, because the default reaction, the immediate response from our rulers is: "more freedom must be taken away".

Well, for fuck's sake, how much more freedom do you want?

Schools are already prisons for all intents and purposes, do you think that is going to improve or change?

Take our guns?

Go ahead, they are pretty worthless in a population that is too timid to aim them and engage in the right direction.

Put us under surveillance?

We already are.

To some people "freedom" means freedom from risk and any possible discomfort. This is nothing new. That's how they foisted the welfare/warfare state upon us. And in recent years the Surveilance State. (it seems like a sort of "egalitarianism of the prison complex" to me) "It's for your own good, citizen". Cradle to grave "security" has always been appealing to at least a portion of the population. What can I say? I know the slippery slope argument is fallacious, but it seems to be true WRT this situation.

[TheTexan]

Deep breaths, AF. Deep breaths.

We all feel this frustration. Everytime anything in the world happens, we expect them to take more freedom away. It's what they do.

But we have a small army of individuals all over the country and all over the world. They cannot get us all.

The US philosophy is that if you have a perfectly good army you may aswell use it

[TheTexan]

You ask the average american what the freeest country in the world is youll get one answer.. USA

This is no misunderstanding, they know exactly what freedom is... Freedom from responsibility

[TheTexan]

You ask the average american what the freeest country in the world is youll get one answer.. USA

This is no misunderstanding, they know exactly what freedom is... Freedom from responsibility

[idiom]

Freedom is plenty popular here. Americans are just a pack o' cowards.

:P

[Cody1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP_-YIhgF3w


There is a holy war brewing in the United States. Those who believe in God given rights such as the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness versus those who worship money, authoritarianism and government sanctioned violence through the state apparatus.

I have strayed from God over these past few years but damn this path we are taking is making me worried. I am an individual, not a part of some collectivist blob.

[heavenlyboy34]

Freedom is plenty popular here. Americans are just a pack o' cowards.

:P
lolz

[jmdrake]

Here's the problem. Freedom is "compartmentalized". The same jackasses on the left who want to restrict gun rights will turn around and say "but don't read my private emails and don't profile people". They support "free speech" when it's borderline child porn, but don't support free speech when it's "hate speech". The same jackasses on the right who are all for throwing away the constitution as a "suicide pack" rely on the constitution to support gun rights. They're okay with secret government lists to kill you or arrest you without trial or keep you off an airplane, but they're against secret government lists to take away your gun rights. They support "free speech" when it's Koran burning but not free speech when it's flag burning or other forms of protest. Few understand that to have your freedom you have to let the other guy have his.

[Czolgosz]

There are all sorts of contributing factors, but the bottom line is that Humans are generally subservient. They also like to be part of groups, hate being ostracized, etc. These things are not conducive to freedom.

I don't believe you can solve societal problems by changing the person, the traits are too ingrained. I'm certain there IS a solution, but we have yet to discover it.

My suggestion is that a conversation around societal structure happen, one that doesn't devolve into the stupid label wars, but something designed to satisfy the needs of various philosophies.

[tfurrh]

You know what is popular? Whatever that damned tube says is popular.

[dannno]

You know what is popular? Whatever that damned tube says is popular.

Hey long time no see!

[Cowlesy]

I think when properly understood, it is very very popular.. therein lies the real problem.

I used to believe this too man, but not anymore. We're past the point of no return unfortunately. Bolshevism and rule by the masses, here we come! Vox Populi is now Vox Dei.

[brushfire]

NGUNS

[tfurrh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP_-YIhgF3w


There is a holy war brewing in the United States. Those who believe in God given rights such as the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness versus those who worship money, authoritarianism and government sanctioned violence through the state apparatus.

I have strayed from God over these past few years but damn this path we are taking is making me worried. I am an individual, not a part of some collectivist blob.

That's another thing the damned tube wants you to believe...that every little hiccup is just a hairs breadth away from Armageddon

[Anti Federalist]

It Depends Upon Whose Children Are Murdered

Posted by Bill Anderson on December 17, 2012 11:45 AM

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/128745.html

The murder of 27 people, including 20 children, in Connecticut is utterly shocking and evil in every respect. Yet, many of the politicians who have demanded the president use all of his "powers" to impose punishment upon those who were innocent of this crime had no problem nearly 20 years ago when U.S. Government forces massacred 76 people, including 26 children, at Waco.

People like Sen. Charles Schumer, one of the loudest voices calling for draconian gun control laws in the wake of the murders, also was one of the loudest voices defending the FBI for its role in the murder of the children at Waco. As many Democrats have told me, the people at Waco were "nut jobs," "wackos," and the like, so it really was OK that they were slaughtered. (Yes, I know there are a few Democrats who were horrified at what happened, but I don't know any personally, and I work in a place where almost everyone around me is a Democrat and a liberal Democrat at that.)

So, while people try to gain partisan advantage because of what happened Friday, we might remember that many of these same people would not care at all if a lot of other children were gunned down by government workers or immolated in fires the government officials deliberately set because, after all, their parents are "wackos."

[tangent4ronpaul]

My only major disagreement with Ron Paul.

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?

We don't need to do anything about it because the government will come and free the shit out of us! :rolleyes:

-t

[Cody1]

That's another thing the damned tube wants you to believe...that every little hiccup is just a hairs breadth away from Armageddon


Knock some sense into me, I sure hope you're right.

[tfurrh]

It Depends Upon Whose Children Are Murdered

Posted by Bill Anderson on December 17, 2012 11:45 AM

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/128745.html

The murder of 27 people, including 20 children, in Connecticut is utterly shocking and evil in every respect. Yet, many of the politicians who have demanded the president use all of his "powers" to impose punishment upon those who were innocent of this crime had no problem nearly 20 years ago when U.S. Government forces massacred 76 people, including 26 children, at Waco.

People like Sen. Charles Schumer, one of the loudest voices calling for draconian gun control laws in the wake of the murders, also was one of the loudest voices defending the FBI for its role in the murder of the children at Waco. As many Democrats have told me, the people at Waco were "nut jobs," "wackos," and the like, so it really was OK that they were slaughtered. (Yes, I know there are a few Democrats who were horrified at what happened, but I don't know any personally, and I work in a place where almost everyone around me is a Democrat and a liberal Democrat at that.)

So, while people try to gain partisan advantage because of what happened Friday, we might remember that many of these same people would not care at all if a lot of other children were gunned down by government workers or immolated in fires the government officials deliberately set because, after all, their parents are "wackos."

Or how about all the black, brown, and yellow kids we've killed abroad.

[ghengis86]

It's the matrix. People love the illusion of choice. They love to feel like they're safe. They hate to be uncomfortable. They shy away from painful thoughts, actions and decisions. But it's perfectly understandable when people have a short term view on life; instant gratification over delayed prosperity. I thoroughly understand this about the majority of people. The problem is, there isn't a viable way (currently) to divorce ourselves from these people and live a peaceful, free and happy life. I don't want to pull people along, kicking and screaming (as AF accurately observes) if they don't want it for themselves. But they will pull us, kicking and screaming in the devolution to tyranny. That's the problem. We want to be left alone. I don't see how they'll be convinced to leave us alone.

Which brings us back to "so what now?"

I'm seriously considering expatriating elsewhere. Somewhere that doesn't claim the right to your life at the leaders whim.

[Anti Federalist]

Which brings us back to "so what now?"

I'm seriously considering expatriating elsewhere. Somewhere that doesn't claim the right to your life at the leaders whim.

Fucked if I know...

I now know what a "trapped rat" feels like though.

Any place in the world that even comes close to meeting your requirement (mine as well) is smart enough not to have its doors wide open.

[jcannon98188]

Fucked if I know...

I now know what a "trapped rat" feels like though.

Any place in the world that even comes close to meeting your requirement (mine as well) is smart enough not to have its doors wide open.

Let me know if you find some place good. I'll grab my stuff and follow suit.

[farreri]

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?
I think it's because people confuse total freedom with partial freedoms like what we mostly have in the USA.

Example, people are free to own some assult weapons, but people are not free to carry guns in some places those assult weapons might be used by a criminal.

[Anti Federalist]

Eric Peters nails it again.

Throw them in the woods.


Get Ready…

December 15, 2012

By eric

http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/12/15/get-ready/

Because here it comes.

The bodies weren’t cold before the slaughter perpetrated by a single homicidal maniac became the basis for calls to slaughter the rights of millions of non-maniacs.

That’s us, in case you missed it.

That 27 are dead is horrific, a nightmare.

That the deaths of these innocents will be used to demagogue gun ownership generally is arguably more so.

For our rights – our liberties – are everything. Without them, our lives are nothing more than biological datum. We exist – but we do not live. Because it is not living when your life is controlled by others (those “others” being the people who control the machinery and enforcement apparatus of government) … when your freedom of action is denied, limited, constrained…. not because of any harm you’ve caused.

But because someone else caused harm.

And worse, because someone else might cause harm.

For which you are to be held presumptively responsible.

It is the logic – no, poor word choice there. It is the justification used for every abridgment of liberty we’ve suffered in recent memory.

Someone might drive drunk. Therefore, anyone who happens to be out driving must submit to being treated as presumptively drunk driving – until they’ve demonstrated otherwise, to the satisfaction of armed and costumed goons.

There might be a terrorist at the airport. So millions of innocent people trying to get someplace must submit to being handled – literally – as presumptive terrorists by armed, costumed goons.

Purchase “too much” Sudafed – and you are presumed to be a confector of arbitrarily illegal “drugs.” And treated accordingly by armed, costumed goons – despite your having done nothing.

That someone else might have done something is sufficient warrant to assume you did – or are about to.

And to treat you as if you already had.

There’s no end to it – because it’s open-ended. If “someone” might do something then certainly any of us could be that someone.

A free society cannot withstand this.

Which is exactly why this country is no longer free.

Yet few people see the connection. If Smith can be restrained – punished – because of the actions of Jones… because of the potential actions of Jones – then Smith is not free. Moral hazard – the notion that each of us ought to bear the consequences of our actions (not the actions of others) is the ethical basis of a free society. Punishment before you, as an individual, have done anything to anyone – in other words, the application of random, arbitrary aggressive violence against a peaceful person – is the sine qua non of unfree societies.

The ancient question, why? – is answered with: “There is no why here.”

Just because. Because they can. Because they have power. And because you are powerless.

Submit. Obey.

Ironically, neither Smith nor Jones is “safer” as a result – the supposed benefit to be had by the evisceration of Smith’s freedom because of the actions (or potential actions) of Jones – because both are now subject to unrestricted, arbitrary violence against their persons – for any reason or no reason. When a person – any of us – is no longer secure in “their persons and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures” – and all the rest of it – then we are by definition insecure.

And insecure is another way of saying, unsafe. Because we are at the mercy of others – within government and without. They can do things to do us – and we have no defense. Not legally, not physically.

Just … Submit. Obey.

Or else.

America used to be place where you knew that if you hadn’t done anything – or given good reason to suspect you were about to – you had a shield of immunity against arbitrary force being applied against you. Cops could not just stop you – without cause, for no reason having to do with anything you’d done. Your home was your castle. They had to have specific reason – evidence of crime having been committed – to violate your space. We could come – and go – without obtaining permission slips. You could buy a car, or cold medicine, a gun or even dynamite – and not be regarded as (and treated as) a presumptive criminal. You felt secure… safe.

Free.

People actually used to say things like, “It’s a free country.” It’s not anymore. Obviously. Depressingly so. And less so, seemingly with the passing of every day.

Especially days such as yesterday – and what they imply about tomorrow.

Which is why that saying is rarely said anymore.

So, it’s not about guns – as such.

A child could – should be able to – see through the infantile idiocy of banning handguns. (How’s that ban on arbitrarily illegal drugs – or murder, for that matter – working for you, Herr Schumer, Moore, et al?) People who feed on such pap are already over the event horizon and cannot be salvaged. It is the adults in the room – the people who can grasp the principle at stake – that must be the focus of our attentions. Who may still be reached before they, too, slip across the threshold and into the abyss.

Taking the rest of us along with them, alas – if we fail to reach them before it’s too late.

Throw it in the Woods?

[heavenlyboy34]

AF, you are clearly just a paranoid fringe cook. Reported to Big Sister. ;)
http://fotos.starmedia.com/imagenes/2012/07/janet-napolitano-indocumentados.jpg

[AGRP]

All sides need to take a breather for at least a week.

[sailingaway]

AF, you are clearly just a paranoid fringe cook. Reported to Big Sister. ;)
http://fotos.starmedia.com/imagenes/2012/07/janet-napolitano-indocumentados.jpg

Big Sister, who explains her lack of so much as a personal email account as being a 'Luddite' of sorts.... of course she knows more than most about what privacy doesn't exist, and what information is being maintained... http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?398693-Massive-New-Surveillance-Program-Uncovered-by-Wall-Street-Journal

[ghengis86]

Fucked if I know...

I now know what a "trapped rat" feels like though.

Any place in the world that even comes close to meeting your requirement (mine as well) is smart enough not to have its doors wide open.

It's actually a moot point since our government reserves the right to exterminate you anywhere in the world or secretly kidnap you off the street of a country that doesn't allow drones to bomb you and render you to the gulag. So where is only secondary as dropping off the grid is more important (at least to me). Then you'll live the life of a hermit. Which brings us back to "why leave and live in fear?" and the follow up, "might as well get it on here than live fear".

[brushfire]

http://fotos.starmedia.com/imagenes/2012/07/janet-napolitano-indocumentados.jpg

I hope she gets a skin infection under one of her evil rolls...

[Elwar]

We lost more in 2012 than an election.

[dillo]

I think a lot more people are going to die if they ban guns

[heavenlyboy34]

I hope she gets a skin infection under one of her evil rolls...
lolz ;) Reptilian skin is rather resiliant, but I hope so too.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I think a lot more people are going to die if they ban guns

Maybe that is the idea.

-t

[heavenlyboy34]

Maybe that is the idea.

-t
Certainly possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21

[thequietkid10]

My only major disagreement with Ron Paul.

Freedom is NOT popular.

I think that is now perfectly clear, don't you?

So, what to do about it, eh?

People don't want freedom, they want security. They want to know when their kids are going to elementary school that they won't be shot. They want to know that there will be food on the table today and down the road. But I still believe that most people pride themselves on being productive members of society (even when they aren't). It is up to us to show them that:

1. The world is really not as dangerous as you think.

2. You are your own best advocate regarding your security and prosperity.

3. If you want security (fiscal and otherwise), your best bet is freedom.

[TheTexan]

1. The world is really not as dangerous as you think.

2. You are your own best advocate regarding freedom and prosperity.

3. If you want security (fiscal and otherwise), your best bet is freedom.

I agree.. but I also don't think people will buy any of these things until they are shown... first-hand.

It kind of puts us in a catch 22. With just one or two ways to break that dilemma.

[paulbot24]

I also think people are worn down and give up when they think the other side holds all the cards.

Not sure what to do about THAT, either, though.

This is what my wife experiences when I talk to her about things I discover and possible outcomes. Most of what I find is unfortunately not exactly good news, but I don't find it depressing like she does. After I little while, I catch her trying to change the subject and so I do. I believe this "facing a mountain of opposition" feeling keeps people down, just as the Soviets during the Cold War used to intentionally inundate their people with news meant to instill fear and helplessness, to keep people subservient and feeling powerless.