Huckabee: "Violence in Schools Because We Systematically Removed God"

[Antischism]

Former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee attributed the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in part to restrictions on school prayer and religious materials in the classroom.

"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News, discussing the murder spree that took the lives of 20 children and 6 adults in Newtown, CT that morning. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

Law enforcement has released few details on the alleged gunman, but Huckabee suggested that the separation of church and state may have spurred his rampage.

"[W]e've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability -- that we're not just going to have be accountable to the police if they catch us, but one day we stand before, you know, a holy God in judgment," Huckabee said. "If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that."

He said those suffering from a crisis from faith should look to God in the community's response to the violence. But he added that "Maybe we ought to let [God] in on the front end and we wouldn't have to call him to show up when it's all said and done at the back end."

http://www.drudge.com/news/163871/huckabee-links-shootings-school-prayer


What an idiot.

What we should really be doing is looking into mental health issues and devoting more time and research into that instead of bringing God/prayer in schools and guns into the equation.

I'm also pretty dumbfounded by how quick some people are to blame the guns when a gun in itself isn't what pulls the trigger; it takes a person with the intent to harm others to pull that trigger. The real issue is obviously pushed to the back of the line because it's easier to attack gun rights than tackle mental health. Of course, big pharma wouldn't want to find practical solutions to mental health problems in our society because then they wouldn't be able to peddle their drugs.

[Cleaner44]

So wait... Huck doesn't think God can be present in a school unless there is a written invitation sent to heaven? I didn't realize that school boards were more powerful than God. Its a damn shame that God could not be there to protect the innocent thanks to a No God Zone sticker on the school windows.

I also think Huck is an idiot.

[paulbot24]

Oh yeah, prayer in schools would have prevented this. I believe we have actually found a dumber culprit than the pistols themselves. This is why people roll their eyes at Republicans. Thanks Huck.

[Vanilluxe]

It is very sad, but prayer will not have prevented such an event. Huckabee is just inflaming the situation.

[alucard13mmfmj]

All these politicians are coming out of the wood works to promote their agendas on the deaths of those little kids.

[kathy88]

At least he isn't pushing for gun control.

[A Son of Liberty]

A Son of Liberty: "Take Government Out of Schools"

SMH. This is the modern American right. This is a leading Republican. Not LESS government (end government schools), but MORE government is what he wants.

Brilliance. Sheer brilliance. Yet leftists claim how far "right" the Republican party has drifted.

Words have no meaning anymore.

[BuddyRey]

So it has nothing to do with the fact that we've invited The State into education (against Constitutional and Natural Law), and based the whole damn one-size-fits-all system on the one invented and perfected in proto-Nazi Prussia?

That's the trouble with neocons like Huck...they seem to understand that something is wrong....but they haven't the faintest idea what the problem really is, let alone how to address it.

[Working Poor]

At least one person should armed at every school

[tttppp]

Former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee attributed the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in part to restrictions on school prayer and religious materials in the classroom.

"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News, discussing the murder spree that took the lives of 20 children and 6 adults in Newtown, CT that morning. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

Law enforcement has released few details on the alleged gunman, but Huckabee suggested that the separation of church and state may have spurred his rampage.

"[W]e've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability -- that we're not just going to have be accountable to the police if they catch us, but one day we stand before, you know, a holy God in judgment," Huckabee said. "If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that."

He said those suffering from a crisis from faith should look to God in the community's response to the violence. But he added that "Maybe we ought to let [God] in on the front end and we wouldn't have to call him to show up when it's all said and done at the back end."

http://www.drudge.com/news/163871/huckabee-links-shootings-school-prayer


What an idiot.

What we should really be doing is looking into mental health issues and devoting more time and research into that instead of bringing God/prayer in schools and guns into the equation.

I'm also pretty dumbfounded by how quick some people are to blame the guns when a gun in itself isn't what pulls the trigger; it takes a person with the intent to harm others to pull that trigger. The real issue is obviously pushed to the back of the line because it's easier to attack gun rights than tackle mental health. Of course, big pharma wouldn't want to find practical solutions to mental health problems in our society because then they wouldn't be able to peddle their drugs.

How about we have no schools at all? I happen to live in Sandy Hook and I can tell you there is absolutely no need to the government to have any involvement in schools. Everyone has some money, so they can afford a private online education.

[sailingaway]

So wait... Huck doesn't think God can be present in a school unless there is a written invitation sent to heaven? I didn't realize that school boards were more powerful than God. Its a damn shame that God could not be there to protect the innocent thanks to a No God Zone sticker on the school windows.

I also think Huck is an idiot.

Yeah. There was a tweet going around yesterday saying: "God, how could you allow children to be shot in school? GOD: 'I'm not allowed in schools' "

Needless to say, I didn't retweet it.

God or even just more morality in our LIVES is a good point, but this wasn't even students shooting, the danger was brought in from elsewhere. And that God isn't there? Weird to see a believer say that.

[ClydeCoulter]

Hey Huck, you don't think not having a future has anything to do with it? The fact that the average person can work and save and then get robbed by people like you? The fact that most peoples lives will be nothing like TV? That people are in debt up to their ears, their other-half walks out and takes any dreams they may have had with them? You don't think it's "personal"?

One of my relatives posted on FB, "Praying? It ain't working. Stop praying, get active".

[Brett85]

Huckabee may be partially right, but it's still not something I would come out and say on TV. I generally don't think it's a good idea to politicize a tragedy like this.

[juleswin]

Religious conservative politicians say the darndest things.

[JK/SEA]

disgusting piece of shit mofo. He's got the 'hand me down no god in schools Hagee/ robertson blues'

I'm surprised this caveman fat son of a bitch can even walk and talk.

[Brett85]

disgusting piece of shit mofo. He's got the 'hand me down no god in schools Hagee/ robertson blues'

I'm surprised this caveman fat son of a bitch can even walk and talk.

What was so offensive about what he said that it caused you to start throwing obscenities at him?

[JK/SEA]

What was so offensive about what he said that it caused you to start throwing obscenities at him?

he makes zero sense, and USES children to promote this God in schools bullshit. How can someone make that leap?....effin moronic conclusions are still moronic conclusions.

[Brett85]

he makes zero sense, and USES children to promote this God in schools bullshit. How can someone make that leap?....effin moronic conclusions are still moronic conclusions.

Anybody who believes in freedom of speech and the first amendment should believe in "God in schools." The ACLU's position is not the libertarian position on this issue. He's right on the actual issue of the 1st amendment being banned in public schools, regardless of whether that actually had anything to do with this shooting or not.

[JK/SEA]

Anybody who believes in freedom of speech and the first amendment should believe in "God in schools." The ACLU's position is not the libertarian position on this issue. He's right on the actual issue of the 1st amendment being banned in public schools, regardless of whether that actually had anything to do with this shooting or not.

what are Churches supposed to be used for?...

[Brett85]

what are Churches supposed to be used for?...

The first amendment doesn't mean that people are allowed to worship God within a building in church and then be required to keep their mouths shut when they step out of that church.

[matt0611]

In schools?

We've been systematically removing God from society for 50 years.

[JK/SEA]

The first amendment doesn't mean that people are allowed to worship God within a building in church and then be required to keep their mouths shut when they step out of that church.

dis-respecting people who may not subscribe to God, are just supposed to keep quiet about 'other' people who send their kids to public schools and want to prosthelitize and promote God in schools ?...is that it?...''hey you...i want God in schools, and i don't care what you think..."

Again...what are churches for?

[Brett85]

dis-respecting people who may not subscribe to God, are just supposed to keep quiet about 'other' people who send their kids to public schools and want to prosthelitize and promote God in schools ?...is that it?...''hey you...i want God in schools, and i don't care what you think..."

Again...what are churches for?

Someone who doesn't believe in God doesn't have the right to take away the 1st amendment rights of someone who does believe in God, regardless of whether they're in a "government building" or on private land. The establishment clause of the 1st amendment only says that Congress shall make no laws establishing a religion. It says nothing about people not being allowed to express themselves on government property.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Someone who doesn't believe in God doesn't have the right to take away the 1st amendment rights of someone who does believe in God, regardless of whether they're in a "government building" or on private land. The establishment clause of the 1st amendment only says that Congress shall make no laws establishing a religion. It says nothing about people not being allowed to express themselves on government property.

Something that leftists (whether they are left libertarians or socialists) conveniently forget.

[JK/SEA]

Someone who doesn't believe in God doesn't have the right to take away the 1st amendment rights of someone who does believe in God, regardless of whether they're in a "government building" or on private land. The establishment clause of the 1st amendment only says that Congress shall make no laws establishing a religion. It says nothing about people not being allowed to express themselves on government property.

these people who may not subscribe to organized religion or God, pay taxes to the State so they can send their kids to school, because they may not have the ability to pay for private school or may not have the time or ability to home school. ...and now they have people putting guns to their childrens head to accept what THEY believe to be right...utter fascists...

what are Churches for?...you haven't answered this question.

[specsaregood]

what are Churches supposed to be used for?...

To drum up support for wars to kill members of other religions.

[Brett85]

these people who may not subscribe to organized religion or God, pay taxes to the State so they can send their kids to school, because they may not have the ability to pay for private school or may not have the time or ability to home school. ...and now they have people putting guns to their childrens head to accept what THEY believe to be right...utter fascists...

what are Churches for?...you haven't answered this question.

The children who go to public schools don't have to believe in anything they don't want to believe in, but they nor anyone else has the right to take away the Constitutional right of free speech for anyone they disagree with. The main purpose of churches are to worship God, but as I said before, the 1st amendment doesn't end the moment one walks out the church doors.

[JK/SEA]

To drum up support for wars to kill members of other religions.

yep..and now Huckabee wants to promote that doctrine on children in public schools.

[LibertyEagle]

To drum up support for wars to kill members of other religions.

You honestly believe that?

[LibertyEagle]

I think the point is that our society has become more and more immoral. Our government reflects that immorality. Ron has talked about this before, remember?


The children who go to public schools don't have to believe in anything they don't want to believe in, but they nor anyone else has the right to take away the Constitutional right of free speech for anyone they disagree with. The main purpose of churches are to worship God, but as I said before, the 1st amendment doesn't end the moment one walks out the church doors.

And guys, this is true. It doesn't mean that public school teachers should be leading any discussions about God, but the students should be able to express themselves on school grounds. Don't you remember some years back when prayer was taken out of the classroom, that students were not even allowed to meet outside on the school grounds and say a prayer, if they so wanted?

[JK/SEA]

The children who go to public schools don't have to believe in anything they don't want to believe in, but they nor anyone else has the right to take away the Constitutional right of free speech for anyone they disagree with. The main purpose of churches are to worship God, but as I said before, the 1st amendment doesn't end the moment one walks out the church doors.

when you start spouting the 'perceived' notion that somehow christians have some 'right' to come into public schools and promote an ideology that runs counter to someone, and his CHILDREN, i'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong, and should expect that mother and father to exercise their RIGHTS. Hence..Huckaweewee is a scum sucking evil cocksucker.

[JK/SEA]

You honestly believe that?

settled science.

[JK/SEA]

I think the point is that our society has become more and more immoral. Our government reflects that immorality. Ron has talked about this before, remember?

not true. The 'immorality' comes from our christian leaders in political positions, and Ron Paul does not promote legislation based on religious ideology.

[specsaregood]

You honestly believe that?

how can one not? I don't hate religion or God; but:
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/05/18/image5022532x.jpg

[LibertyEagle]

settled science.

Oh bull. No it's not.

Man, you are acting like you just hate Christians this morning. What's up?

[LibertyEagle]

how can one not? I don't hate religion or God; but:
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/05/18/image5022532x.jpg

I agree that that is ignorant, but I don't blame Christianity for it. I blame ignorant people who are twisting the word of God for their own agenda.

[specsaregood]

I agree that that is ignorant, but I don't blame Christianity for it. I blame ignorant people who are twisting the word of God for their own agenda.

Right, and I didn't say anything about christianity in my response; the question was about churches. And unfortunately it seems most churches in the US nowadays play the role of govt attack dog training schools rather than about christianity.

[specsaregood]

I agree that that is ignorant, but I don't blame Christianity for it. I blame ignorant people who are twisting the word of God for their own agenda.

If the vast majority of church leaders were calling for and encouraging their flock to end of the wars, end the droning, end the patriot act etc..... do you think they would still be in place?

[JK/SEA]

Oh bull. No it's not.

Man, you are acting like you just hate Christians this morning. What's up?

i don't hate the christian, i hate the ideology. For valid reasons. And it saddens me to see well meaning people being led into hell.

I personnally don't subscribe to organized religion or christianity, i am however spiritual, because i will not walk with people who follow a destructive scam like organized religion.

[Brett85]

when you start spouting the 'perceived' notion that somehow christians have some 'right' to come into public schools and promote an ideology that runs counter to someone, and his CHILDREN, i'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong, and should expect that mother and father to exercise their RIGHTS. Hence..Huckaweewee is a scum sucking evil cocksucker.

I didn't say anything about "Christians." If a Muslim teacher decided she wanted to express her religious beliefs in the classroom, I wouldn't claim that what she was doing violated the Constitution. I wouldn't call up the ACLU and demand that they file a lawsuit against the teacher.

[pcosmar]

I agree that that is ignorant, but I don't blame Christianity for it. I blame ignorant people who are twisting the word of God for their own agenda.
And that would start with the thread title and the speaker of the statement. "Huckabee"

[pcosmar]

how can one not? I don't hate religion or God; but:
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2009/05/18/image5022532x.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69zvFnVa03g

comes to mind,,

[LibertyEagle]

not true. The 'immorality' comes from our christian leaders in political positions,

No. Rather if they were truly Christians, they wouldn't be acting so immoral. Anyone can call themselves a Christian; just like anyone can call themselves a conservative. It doesn't make it true.


The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders' political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government's hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people's allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation's Christian heritage.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html


and Ron Paul does not promote legislation based on religious ideology.

He considers God in everything that he does.


"I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, and I endeavor every day to follow Him in all I do and in every position I advocate." -Ron Paul
http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2011/07/ron-pauls-statement-of-faith.html

[JK/SEA]

I didn't say anything about "Christians." If a Muslim teacher decided she wanted to express her religious beliefs in the classroom, I wouldn't claim that what she was doing violated the Constitution. I wouldn't call up the ACLU and demand that they file a lawsuit against the teacher.

whatever. Replace muslim with atheist. Replace atheist with christian. Replace christian with buddhist..in other words, keep your religious or otherwise beliefs out of taxpayer funded schools and let the kids learn the 3 R's without this bullshit distraction. Keep your crapola beliefs in the church of your choice....

[LibertyEagle]

And that would start with the thread title and the speaker of the statement. "Huckabee"

But, many here are not limiting their dislike to just Huckabee. It is overflowing into other areas.

[Brett85]

whatever. Replace muslim with atheist. Replace atheist with christian. Replace christian with buddhist..in other words, keep your religious or otherwise beliefs out of taxpayer funded schools and let the kids learn the 3 R's without this bullshit distraction. Keep your crapola beliefs in the church of your choice....

What part of the Constitution forbids a teacher or student from expressing their religious beliefs in the classroom?

[Dr.3D]

these people who may not subscribe to organized religion or God, pay taxes to the State so they can send their kids to school, because they may not have the ability to pay for private school or may not have the time or ability to home school. ...and now they have people putting guns to their childrens head to accept what THEY believe to be right...utter fascists...

what are Churches for?...you haven't answered this question.
A Church is not a building.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them." (NRS)
A Church can be in the corner of the school lunch room.

[A Son of Liberty]

Gee and to think we could have done without a 3-page pissing match if we didn't have government schools at all...

[LibertyEagle]

whatever. Replace muslim with atheist. Replace atheist with christian. Replace christian with buddhist..in other words, keep your religious or otherwise beliefs out of taxpayer funded schools and let the kids learn the 3 R's without this bullshit distraction. Keep your crapola beliefs in the church of your choice....

That's fine with me that teachers do not do this, as long as secular humanism is ALSO kept out of public schools.

[pcosmar]

Gee and to think we could have done without a 3-page pissing match if we didn't have government schools at all...

Ya think?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPnDZ1Txlo

[LibertyEagle]

If the vast majority of church leaders were calling for and encouraging their flock to end of the wars, end the droning, end the patriot act etc..... do you think they would still be in place?

Most don't say anything at all about it and if they did, it would risk their tax-exempt status. That is one reason I don't go to churches that do the tax-exempt thing.

[JK/SEA]

That's fine with me that teachers do not do this, as long as secular humanism is ALSO kept out of public schools.

agreed.

Huckabee is still a moron for stating his beliefs about no God in schools being the cause of these childrens murders...

[LibertyEagle]

I know some of you are going to hate this.


Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view. The justification is always that someone, somewhere, might possibly be offended or feel uncomfortable living in the midst of a largely Christian society, so all must yield to the fragile sensibilities of the few. The ultimate goal of the anti-religious elites is to transform America into a completely secular nation, a nation that is legally and culturally biased against Christianity. - Ron Paul

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

[LibertyEagle]

agreed.

Huckabee is still a moron for stating his beliefs about no God in schools being the cause of these childrens murders...

I heard it when he said it. It made me pause when he did and I wanted to see where the discussion went in the next days. But, I DO think that we do have a lot of problems because our morality in this country has taken a huge nosedive. And because I am a Christian, I think a lot of that is because of what Ron Paul called The War on Religion.

[GunnyFreedom]

You honestly believe that?

Sad but true, one of the more popular conspiracilluminati movies, and the earlier ones, posits that Christianity was entirely an invention of the new world order and the illuminati for the sole purpose of controlling the masses.


whatever. Replace muslim with atheist. Replace atheist with christian. Replace christian with buddhist..in other words, keep your religious or otherwise beliefs out of taxpayer funded schools and let the kids learn the 3 R's without this bullshit distraction. Keep your crapola beliefs in the church of your choice....

Freedom of religion does not equal freedom from religion. In fact, they are diametric opposites. That would be like claiming "freedom of speech" means you don't ever have to hear anything offensive lest the speaker go to jail. It's ridiculous on it's face.

[madengr]

Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government's hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

Where is God in the constitution? The rights derived fom a creator, in the Declaration of Independance, is simply to say the the rights do not flow from kings.

[Dr.3D]

I heard it when he said it. It made me pause when he did and I wanted to see where the discussion went in the next days. But, I DO think that we do have a lot of problems because our morality in this country has taken a huge nosedive. And because I am a Christian, I think a lot of that is because of what Ron Paul called The War on Religion.
We all heard people boo Ron Paul when he was expressing the "do to others as you would have them do to you." But that has been his view right along. He called it "blow back." What you do to others will be returned to you.

[JK/SEA]

I know some of you are going to hate this.



http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

This was back in 2003. Ron has modified and changed his views before. Whats his latest take on this, because what he is saying here runs counter to a Constitutional Republic vs a mob rule democracy.

[jay_dub]

This shooting doesn't seem to have anything in particular to do with schools. The guy shot his mother first at home. He then went to her place of work, which happened to be a school, and went off.

I'm not sure there's any lesson to be learned from this, except one of gun safety. Every gun owner is responsible for their guns, just as the owner of a dog is responsible for what their dog may do.

With the shooter dead and the gun owner dead (weren't they his mother's guns?), there's not much left to do except pick up and carry on.

[liveandletlive]

what a joke. We need a 3000 year old book to learn what's right and what's wrong?

[AuH20]

No morality. No self-discipline. No empathy. No intellectual curiousity. The government has promoted the eradication of these key qualities, since it leads to the expansion of their power. I wouldn't say it's the removal of God, but rather God's guidelines for a better future.

[KingNothing]

I heard it when he said it. It made me pause when he did and I wanted to see where the discussion went in the next days. But, I DO think that we do have a lot of problems because our morality in this country has taken a huge nosedive. And because I am a Christian, I think a lot of that is because of what Ron Paul called The War on Religion.

As a whole, violent crime is WAY, WAY, WAY down over recent decades. For example, there will probably be around 400 murders this year in NYC. In the early 1990's, there were 2,500 a year!

Crimes that grab our attention are up significantly. Crimes that don't are down significantly. It might be time to ask ourselves why this is, and what can be done about it. Personally, I don't buy the "morality is down" angle, but I do subscribe to the notion that the media and our culture's infatuation with gore and news-as-entertainment does, at the very least, put the thought of mass-homicide into the minds of lunatics.

[KingNothing]

Where is God in the constitution? The rights derived fom a creator, in the Declaration of Independance, is simply to say the the rights do not flow from kings.

The Constitution is not "replete" with references to God. Ron knows that, but he didn't want to let the truth stand in the way of his point. So it goes, I guess.

[JK/SEA]

Freedom of religion does not equal freedom from religion. In fact, they are diametric opposites. That would be like claiming "freedom of speech" means you don't ever have to hear anything offensive lest the speaker go to jail. It's ridiculous on it's face.

natural rights gives me the freedom to express my likes and dislikes about a range of issues. Promoting religion in public schools is one of my dislikes. You don't agree...fine with me. Make your case.

[GunnyFreedom]

agreed.

Huckabee is still a moron for stating his beliefs about no God in schools being the cause of these childrens murders...

Of course he is. For a dozen different reasons.

Chanting a prayer in school will accomplish nothing without sincerity.
Morality is a heart condition, not a lip condition.
There is nowhere that God isn't, and it's beyond human power to kick Him out of anywhere.
The Huckster is spinning self-interested propaganda to make people like him.
Asking government to teach God is like asking Charles Manson to teach peace.
Putting God under government fiat is idolatry and blasphemy.
Asking government to enforce godliness was the error of the Pharisees.
Using tax dollars to teach religion means you have to teach every religion on the planet.
Teachers today barely know how to read, God forbid we ask them to teach theology.
Public Education instills agenda in history and civics, just imagine what they will do with religion.
Taxation being theft, you can't expound God from a foundation of theft.
A positive requirement for a selected religion violates the establishment clause.

I could go on for hours listing reasons why this one position makes the Huckster a moron, weeks if we start getting into his other positons.

[LibertyEagle]

what a joke. We need a 3000 year old book to learn what's right and what's wrong?

Where do you think the concept of right and wrong came from?

[LibertyEagle]

This was back in 2003. Ron has modified and changed his views before. Whats his latest take on this, because what he is saying here runs counter to a Constitutional Republic vs a mob rule democracy.

No, it doesn't. And I don't think he's changed his views. Perhaps you should dig up some of his later speeches on this subject.

[GunnyFreedom]

natural rights gives me the freedom to express my likes and dislikes about a range of issues. Promoting religion in public schools is one of my dislikes. You don't agree...fine with me. Make your case.

Who (other than the Huckster) said anything about promoting religion in public schools? I'm simply saying that the government has no right to suppress it.

[Petar]

I just want to say that I think that the concept of respecting one another is very natural and does not require religion, but I also want to give some credit to religion for those times that it supports things like "do unto others..." etc.

[KingNothing]

Where do you think the concept of right and wrong came from?

Social mores of a time and place. Depending on what those are, people have differing notions of right and wrong. These things are entirely subjective. Our culture has accepted judeo-christian values, for better or worse (I think better, but far Eastern philosophies hold value as well), and there may come a time when this changes. Certainly, there have been shifts in the past.

[KingNothing]

I just want to say that I think that the concept of respecting one another is very natural and does not require religion, but I also want to give some credit to religion for those times that it supports things like "do unto others..." etc.

I think the idea of a Prince of Peace is very powerful and represented a wonderful leap forward for mankind.

[liveandletlive]

Where do you think the concept of right and wrong came from?

from the innate human desire of wanting to do good. It is embedded in our genes and has progressed over thousands of years. Human beings are being MORE MORAL as we have LESS RELIGION.

[KingNothing]

Where do you think the concept of right and wrong came from?

Whose?

[AuH20]

The species is wise while the individual is often impulsive, short-sighted and ignorant, thanks in large part to their limited time on this planet. I'm a deist but I see the Bible as a collection of wisdom accumulated over numerous centuries.

[KingNothing]

from the innate human desire of wanting to do good. It is embedded in our genes and has progressed over thousands of years. Human beings are being MORE MORAL as we have LESS RELIGION.

My assumption is that religion and state subside as people take it upon themselves to treat each other better. If that is what you're saying, I agree.

[GunnyFreedom]

from the innate human desire of wanting to do good. It is embedded in our genes and has progressed over thousands of years. Human beings are being MORE MORAL as we have LESS RELIGION.

James seems to think that the definition of true religion is to embrace liberty and act morally:


James 1:25-27 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. [NASB]

[AGRP]

Too many false prophets these days misrepresenting Christianity.

[donnay]

I agree that that is ignorant, but I don't blame Christianity for it. I blame ignorant people who are twisting the word of God for their own agenda.

Like Huckabee.

Religion has been sullied, tarnished and scorn by the very people pretending to be Christians.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. "

"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?"

Matthew 7:15-16

[donnay]

What part of the Constitution forbids a teacher or student from expressing their religious beliefs in the classroom?

What part of the Constitution talks about public schools?

[JK/SEA]

Who (other than the Huckster) said anything about promoting religion in public schools? I'm simply saying that the government has no right to suppress it.

or promote it.

[LibertyEagle]

What part of the Constitution talks about public schools?

That's not the way it works, Donnay. You know that. Where does it say that public schools are opted out of the 1st Amendment?

Congress shall make no law...

[LibertyEagle]

Like Huckabee.

Religion has been sullied, tarnished and scorn by the very people pretending to be Christians.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. "

"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?"

Matthew 7:15-16

Very true.

[GunnyFreedom]

or promote it.

Pretty sure I just gave a list of 12 reasons why that is both a horrible idea, and unconstitutional.

[LibertyEagle]

Whose?

I think you just described a lot the problems.

[donnay]

That's not the way it works, Donnay. You know that. Where does it say that public schools are opted out of the 1st Amendment?

Congress shall make no law...


Stealing is immoral. I do not have children in the public schools so why do they steal from me for them?

[JK/SEA]

Too many false prophets these days misrepresenting Christianity.

the sheep will follow....right over the cliff and into hell.

[JK/SEA]

Pretty sure I just gave a list of 12 reasons why that is both a horrible idea, and unconstitutional.

yep...thought i deleted that comment, after re-reading. This thread is moving pretty fast, but yeah..agreed.

[KingNothing]

I think you just described a lot the problems.

That people don't uniformly believe exactly what you believe?

[GunnyFreedom]

Stealing is immoral. I do not have children in the public schools so why do they steal from me for them?

Because the American people are largely immoral. They understand that they should not aggress themselves against individuals, but they do not understand that asking government to aggress against others on their behalf is just as wrong. They think that by getting the government to do their dirty work for them, they can wash their hands of it like Pontius Pilate. Instill this truth and a lot of this problem will self-correct.

[donnay]

the sheep will follow....right over the cliff and into hell.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOOs8MaR1YM

[donnay]

Because the American people are largely immoral. They understand that they should not aggress themselves against individuals, but they do not understand that asking government to aggress against others on their behalf is just as wrong. They think that by getting the government to do their dirty work for them, they can wash their hands of it like Pontius Pilate. Instill this truth and a lot of this problem will self-correct.

Indeed. +rep


ETA:

I would also add that this country has systematically be swindled into Marxism.

10th Plank of The Communist Manifesto

Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html

[Cleaner44]

I wonder if Huck thinks we have violence in the middle east because there is a lack of God there too.

Fucking idiot.

[CaptainAmerica]

Its more than just about "schools", its about a guy who snapped for uknown reasons. He didn't attend the school,mike huckabee is a morangatang.

[GunnyFreedom]

Indeed. +rep


ETA:

I would also add that this country has systematically be swindled into Marxism.

10th Plank of The Communist Manifesto

Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. You end up with a chicken vs egg scenario here. Does immorality cause acceptance of public schools, or do public schools cause immorality? the answer to that question is simply, "yes." Still, I think that the fundamental immorality of accepting government aggression on our behalf is a little but more fundamental, a little bit closer to the root. So in the attempt to 'strike the root,' I tend to go after the willingness to aggress, or the willingness to as government to aggress on our behalf, first.

Eliminate the willingness to have government aggress on our behalf, and taxation is seen as the theft that it is. A lot of principles become clear, like taking your money to teach children things you find abominable is an aggression against you. Suddenly, the Constitution starts working, and it becomes clear that the US Constitution does not provide for education.

So, trying to get the dominos to fall, and working from Ron Paul's splendid elucidation in his farewell speech, I'm trying to work back from the first domino. Do not aggress, and do not ask government to aggress on our behalf. I believe that Ron Paul is right. Fix this one thing, and the dominos after it all begin to fall in sequence. it is the most sure path to ultimate victory for our movement.

[specsaregood]

Most don't say anything at all about it and if they did, it would risk their tax-exempt status. That is one reason I don't go to churches that do the tax-exempt thing.
Which leads to another question: does a church that keeps their trap shut and does not speak out about moral outrages in exchange tax-exempt status do more harm than good? Religion in america is dying out; and many of those churches have nobody to blame but themselves.





You honestly believe that?
Sad but true, one of the more popular conspiracilluminati movies, and the earlier ones, posits that Christianity was entirely an invention of the new world order and the illuminati for the sole purpose of controlling the masses.

FTR, my views have nothing to do with any such movies -- as I doubt I've bothered even viewing them -- but rather from my own observations and don't require belief in any conspiracy to see.

[donnay]

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. You end up with a chicken vs egg scenario here. Does immorality cause acceptance of public schools, or do public schools cause immorality? the answer to that question is simply, "yes." Still, I think that the fundamental immorality of accepting government aggression on our behalf is a little but more fundamental, a little bit closer to the root. So in the attempt to 'strike the root,' I tend to go after the willingness to aggress, or the willingness to as government to aggress on our behalf, first.

Eliminate the willingness to have government aggress on our behalf, and taxation is seen as the theft that it is. A lot of principles become clear, like taking your money to teach children things you find abominable is an aggression against you. Suddenly, the Constitution starts working, and it becomes clear that the US Constitution does not provide for education.

So, trying to get the dominos to fall, and working from Ron Paul's splendid elucidation in his farewell speech, I'm trying to work back from the first domino. Do not aggress, and do not ask government to aggress on our behalf. I believe that Ron Paul is right. Fix this one thing, and the dominos after it all begin to fall in sequence. it is the most sure path to ultimate victory for our movement.


I owe you one gunny. Well said!

[LibertyEagle]

That people don't uniformly believe exactly what you believe?

What are you talking about? Are you unfamiliar with the 10 Commandments?

[LibertyEagle]

Which leads to another question: does a church that keeps their trap shut and does not speak out about moral outrages in exchange tax-exempt status do more harm than good? Religion in america is dying out; and many of those churches have nobody to blame but themselves.
Yes, I think some do. Which is why I don't choose to attend those.

[GunnyFreedom]

Which leads to another question: does a church that keeps their trap shut and does not speak out about moral outrages in exchange tax-exempt status do more harm than good? Religion in america is dying out; and many of those churches have nobody to blame but themselves.

501(c)3 is, IMHO, the primary mark of apostasy in America today. From where I sit, any church that has a 501(c)3 status is already considered to have fallen away, and I place zero credence on anything they have to say on any topic whatsoever.


FTR, my views have nothing to do with any such movies -- as I doubt I've bothered even viewing them -- but rather from my own observations and don't require belief in any conspiracy to see.

Ron Paul would be a good example of the Christian remnant. Also Chuck Baldwin is about 98% there.

Zeitgeist is one of the primary conspiracy documentaries that makes the claim that all religion, and particularly Christianity, was fabricated out of thin air by the illuminati in order to control the masses. (I finally remembered it's name)

[KingNothing]

What are you talking about? Are you unfamiliar with the 10 Commandments?

I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Are you implying that everyone abides by the 10 Commandments or that they are recognized outside of judeo-Christian societies? Or that the philosophies they convey require the Bible as a medium?

[KingNothing]

Zeitgeist is one of the primary conspiracy documentaries that makes the claim that all religion, and particularly Christianity, was fabricated out of thin air by the illuminati in order to control the masses. (I finally remembered it's name)

I hate Zeitgeist, but I think it's pretty clear that all religions, all moral or philosophical codes even, were created to control people. I'm not sure why that must be viewed as a bad thing, though. If offering people a moral compass that they can accept voluntarily helps them to coexist peacefully, it sounds fine to me. Whether or not religion has managed to accomplish that is another thing altogether.

[LibertyEagle]

I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Are you implying that everyone abides by the 10 Commandments or that they are recognized outside of judeo-Christian societies? Or that the philosophies they convey require the Bible as a medium?

I don't think you realize that the morality that was taught most of us came from the Bible. And no, a lot of people do not follow the 10 Commandments. THAT is one of the problems.

[LibertyEagle]

I hate Zeitgeist, but I think it's pretty clear that all religions, all moral or philosophical codes even, were created to control people. I'm not sure why that must be viewed as a bad thing, though. If offering people a moral compass that they can accept voluntarily helps them to coexist peacefully, it sounds fine to me. Whether or not religion has managed to accomplish that is another thing altogether.

Which video was it that you watched that left you believing that?

[Luciconsort]

So wait... Huck doesn't think God can be present in a school unless there is a written invitation sent to heaven? I didn't realize that school boards were more powerful than God. Its a damn shame that God could not be there to protect the innocent thanks to a No God Zone sticker on the school windows.

I also think Huck is an idiot.

god is a vampire apparently... they need invites to get in as well lmao

[GunnyFreedom]

I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Are you implying that everyone abides by the 10 Commandments or that they are recognized outside of judeo-Christian societies? Or that the philosophies they convey require the Bible as a medium?

Actually, she's a little off. All of human morality basically expounds from the instructions God gave Noah in Genesis 9. With or without the Bible, because that describes the moral instruction that God gave the whole human race before they split off into their little groups, nations, and religions. The fundamental principles conveyed in Genesis 9 can be found in pretty much every major world religion for that reason alone, and this is why pretty much every belief structure on the planet has it's own version of the golden rule.

I mean, I don't expect you to accept that. When you approach this as though the Bible is a work of fiction, then events described in it could not possibly directly precipitate real-world consequences. Especially when said events are as fantastic as a global flood and a re-boot of the human race from a small seed.

Nevertheless, the moral instruction according to Judeo-Christian theology that has lodged into every human being on the planet regardless of age, sex, race, color, creed, or religion, is derived from the moral instruction God gave Noah after the flood, when his little familial band were all the humans on the face of the Earth. Which explains why such moral traditions have passed on to every faith tradition on Earth.

[GunnyFreedom]

I hate Zeitgeist, but I think it's pretty clear that all religions, all moral or philosophical codes even, were created to control people. I'm not sure why that must be viewed as a bad thing, though. If offering people a moral compass that they can accept voluntarily helps them to coexist peacefully, it sounds fine to me. Whether or not religion has managed to accomplish that is another thing altogether.

Actually, the Bible says "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2Cor 3:17

That's pretty much the opposite of control. The only controlling being done here is by people who pervert the intent because they themselves want to control others.

[Anti Federalist]

So it has nothing to do with the fact that we've invited The State into education (against Constitutional and Natural Law), and based the whole damn one-size-fits-all system on the one invented and perfected in proto-Nazi Prussia?

That's the trouble with neocons like Huck...they seem to understand that something is wrong....but they haven't the faintest idea what the problem really is, let alone how to address it.

Bingo.

People say the "the public schools are failing".

No they are not.

They are doing just what they were designed to do, produce generation after generation of high functioning illiterates, whose first loyalty is always to the state.

[KingNothing]

I don't think you realize that the morality that was taught most of us came from the Bible. And no, a lot of people do not follow the 10 Commandments. THAT is one of the problems.

So, you paid no attention to what I've written?

[pcosmar]

Bingo.

People say the "the public schools are failing".

No they are not.

They are doing just what they were designed to do, produce generation after generation of high functioning illiterates, whose first loyalty is always to the state.

This bears repeating,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPnDZ1Txlo



Francis Julius Bellamy (May 18, 1855 – August 28, 1931) was an American Christian Socialist,[1][2] Baptist minister, and author, best known for authoring the American Pledge of Allegiance.

just sayin'

[Anti Federalist]

That's not the way it works, Donnay. You know that. Where does it say that public schools are opted out of the 1st Amendment?

Congress shall make no law...

I think she was driving more toward the point of compulsory attendance without due process.

[AGRP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2BfqDUPL1I&feature=youtube_gdata

[DamianTV]

(in regards to story)

Right. Excluding the study of God in Public Schools (where every religion is supposed to be accepted) is what causes people to go psycho. It wouldnt have anything to do with Schools being Indoctrination Centres that are designed to break peoples spirits and twist their minds.

/sarcasm

[Anti Federalist]

Maybe if Huck had taken the tack that we, as a nation, will reap what we sow, he might have made more sense.

There is no doubt in my mind about that.

Call it God's justice, the laws of the universe, karma or what have you, a nation and people so inured to the violence that is spread in our name, will have it meted back to us in one form or another.

[Brett85]

What part of the Constitution talks about public schools?

It doesn't, which is my point. The 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making a law establishing a religion. It says nothing about preventing people from expressing their views in government buildings.

[ClydeCoulter]

So, what time will school actually start? Pledge, christian prayer, muslim prayer, "other religion" prayers...okay kids today (ring...ring...) uh, lunch time.

[jonhowe]

As and atheist, this misplaced blame on what I see as a fable is really, really sad. What a waste of time and energy to debate mythology when little kids just got shot.

[madengr]

Yes, but teaching religion, or spending any money for it via the federal government, requires budget (law) by congress. If they approve money for it (school spending) then that could be considered a law endorsing religion. Just keep religion out of government; that's all I care about, coming from a Dawkins/Hitchens inspired atheist.

[jonhowe]

Where do you think the concept of right and wrong came from?


You REALLY think there was no morality before people read it in an old book? FUCK you're a cynic.

[cbrons]

Yes, I agree with Huckabee. The elimination of absolute moral standards, replacing it with moral relativism (http://carm.org/what-relativism) is the reason why we're seeing violence of this sort.

[heavenlyboy34]

he makes zero sense, and USES children to promote this God in schools bullshit. How can someone make that leap?....effin moronic conclusions are still moronic conclusions.
The problem that you and Huck both have here is that you fail to understand the nature of the Pledge. It is a fascist meme for indoctrinating the masses, not a prayer.

[heavenlyboy34]

Bingo.

People say the "the public schools are failing".

No they are not.

They are doing just what they were designed to do, produce generation after generation of high functioning illiterates, whose first loyalty is always to the state.
This^^ Gatto and Iserbyt explain this in detail in their respective literature.

[mport1]

The god of the old testament was extremely violent and evil. How would removing him cause more violence?

[2young2vote]

It isn't about a god or religion. There are many people who call themselves Christians, but don't use the bible/religion (specifically the last five of the Ten Commandments) as their basis for what they believe is right and wrong. I grew up going to church and the church and religion had no impact at all on my perception of what right and wrong are. I can't believe i'd be the only one this applied to.

It is about Morality. I can tell you that if i hadn't had parents who could tell me what was right and what was wrong, and I had never been introduced to Ron Paul and the ideas of property and liberty, then I would be one of those moral-less losers you see everywhere. There are many people who aren't as fortunate as I am and don't have parents who teach them things or good people they can idolize. So what happens? They learn from other loser kids at school and from the media. The problem is when we don't have any external forces teaching us about proper behavior, then we look inward to know what to do. And when you have a school with thousands of kids learning the same way, then they all learn off each other which means they all learn from their emotions. The problem is that our emotions are the most powerful things that can influence our behavior if we don't know how, or have never learned how, to behave based on reason and logic. That means our natural emotions take over and we literally devolve into wild animals that can read and write. The use of emotion as a decision making tool is dangerous and unproductive to society. Take my cousin for example. She is only 15 years old and has already become pregnant. If she based her decisions using the information she has by observation and simple logic and reasoning, then she would KNOW that having a child at 15 or 16 will make for a lifetime of struggle. But she doesn't base her decisions on her knowledge. She bases them on what she FEELS. "I feel that I want this so I will make my behavioral decisions based on those feelings so I can appease them." If she had remained abstinent she could have gone to school, gotten a good and stable life, AND have had a child or two. Now she is going to be a government leech for the rest of her life and kids who will probably grow up to be just like her.

[juleswin]

Gee and to think we could have done without a 3-page pissing match if we didn't have government schools at all...

Yup, not even the atheists complains about prayers or religious symbols in catholic public schools. Seems the problem we have here is the public school part and I see vouchers as a quick solution to it

[Confederate]

In schools?

We've been systematically removing God from society for 50 years.

Longer than that. And THAT is the problem our society faces. Every one of our problems stems from that.

[Brett85]

If they approve money for it (school spending) then that could be considered a law endorsing religion.

Even if it was considered "endorsing" a religion, the Constutition doesn't forbid "endorsing" a religion. It simply forbids establishing a religion, meaning that Congress can't pass a law forcing people to attend a state sponsored church.

[Confederate]

Even if it was considered "endorsing" a religion, the Constutition doesn't forbid "endorsing" a religion. It simply forbids establishing a religion, meaning that Congress can't pass a law forcing people to attend a state sponsored church.

The modern interpretation of the 1st Amendment is such a perversion of its original intent.

[Sonny Tufts]

Even if it was considered "endorsing" a religion, the Constutition doesn't forbid "endorsing" a religion. It simply forbids establishing a religion, meaning that Congress can't pass a law forcing people to attend a state sponsored church.

The Establishment Clause means much more than that. It means in part that the government can't play favorites by promoting one religion over another. Think about it: do you really want some government bureaucrat deciding what religion the government should favor?

[Brett85]

The Establishment Clause means much more than that. It means in part that the government can't play favorites by promoting one religion over another. Think about it: do you really want some government bureaucrat deciding what religion the government should favor?

1) Where do you read in the Constitution that the government is forbidden from "promoting one religion over another?"

2) I never said that the government should promote one religion over another. I just said that people of all faiths should be free to express their religious beliefs and exercise their 1st amendment rights, regardless of where they're at.

[Confederate]

The Establishment Clause means much more than that. It means in part that the government can't play favorites by promoting one religion over another. Think about it: do you really want some government bureaucrat deciding what religion the government should favor?

Where does it say that?

[nasaal]

He trivializes the event by not making an argument that can be truly respected.

[Danke]

Where does it say that?It doesn't. It is a restriction on the Federal government, not the States. Many States had official religions for many years after the adoption of the Constitution.

[Agorism]

Start calling this guy reverend Huckabee rather than governor Huckabee

[Confederate]

Start calling this guy reverend Huckabee rather than governor Huckabee

Well he is an ordained minister...

[ClydeCoulter]

Well he is an ordained minister...

So is my brother, but I wouldn't take this from him either.

[Giuliani was there on 911]

I'm an atheist but I think he has a general point in terms of the removal of God from society as a whole. The moral decay of this country is what's causing all of these mass shootings.

[Confederate]

So is my brother, but I wouldn't take this from him either.

Take what?

[ClydeCoulter]

Take what?

What he said as the "gospel" :)

[pcosmar]

Start calling this guy reverend Huckabee rather than governor Huckabee

"Reverend" would infer respect.
I haz none.

[ClydeCoulter]

I see what is going on in the perspective of more than just this shooting.
I think I see it from the perspective of all of the things that are going on. Devaluation of the dollar, devalued morals (of which TV is the antagonist), commitments not being taken seriously (what is love in the sense of "my god, I can't live without you"...yes you can, but are you willing to make a commitment? screw marriage, just commit or not), etc...
MKUltra? Maybe, but can you be mkulta'ed if your principled? (I don't know).
Morals, integrity, principle...means a whole lot. Are you as good as your word?
Parents, are we saying "Do as I say, not as I do"? So is the fedgov and all levels of power.
No wonder kids are confused.

[FreeHampshire]

Violence in school is due to government schools themselves. A free market education system would put a greater emphasis on things such as homeschooling. Demented children and undesirables would be removed from most private schools, and new security measures may be enacted to keep the students safe. (ie teachers carrying guns)

[Agorism]

Reverend Sharpton err I mean Reverend Huckabee thinks....bla bla bla

[Pauls' Revere]

All these politicians are coming out of the wood works to promote their agendas on the deaths of those little kids.

Exactly, and it's shameful.

[Natural Citizen]

But, many here are not limiting their dislike to just Huckabee. It is overflowing into other areas.

Edit -- Meh. Screwit. Nevermind. Deleted post. Shouldn't even have opened the door. Politicians should be taken at face value when organizing religiously and conforming to the fear model like Mike did. By default he's strived to become and has been successful in becoming the authority figure. I'll just leave it at that.

[Sonny Tufts]

Where does it say that?

The Establishment Clause.


The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing Township, 330 U.S. 1, 15 (1947)

People who want the government to promote their particular faith should ask themselves: is your faith so unpersuasive that you need the force and authority of the state to spread it? And if another faith gains political control and begins to promote its beliefs, will you tolerate it or will you run to the courts to try and get it stopped?

[presence]

Huckabee: "Violence in Schools Because We Systematically Removed GUNS"



Fixed for ya Huck!


The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence.
They deserve a place of honour with all that's good.
When firearms go, all goes.
We need them every hour.

George Washington

[Feeding the Abscess]

1) Where do you read in the Constitution that the government is forbidden from "promoting one religion over another?"

The Constitution is supposed to be a document that details what the government can do; not what it cannot do.

The first interpretation would at least suggest a limited government. The second, which you have endorsed in this post, allows for just about anything.

[Southron]

Huckabee should instead be encouraging Christian parents to take their children out of the indoctrination camps. I'm actually not surprised by sinful acts of men in a sinful world. The best you can do is not put your children in situations where you are unable to protect them.

[madengr]

Huckabee should instead be encouraging Christian parents to take their children out of the indoctrination camps. I'm actually not surprised by sinful acts of men in a sinful world. The best you can do is not put your children in situations where you are unable to protect them.

I agree. I don't want religion pushed in schools, but the best approach is to stop the taxation so parents can send their kids where they want. I'm sending mine to a secular private school, and it cost $, but no more than what the state already spends per pupil in public schools. I still have to pay property taxes even though I want no part of the system.

[Sola_Fide]

Huckabee should instead be encouraging Christian parents to take their children out of the indoctrination camps. I'm actually not surprised by sinful acts of men in a sinful world. The best you can do is not put your children in situations where you are unable to protect them.

Agree.

And something else to think about is this: "Christian" parents send their children to be indoctrinated with evolution and statism, things which a young person internalizes and eventually confirms their war against God and a Christian worldview. What some so-called Christian people have done by not fighting tooth and nail against the state schools (and even participating in it) is worse than sending their children to be murdered. It's sending them to be confirmed in their sinful thinking and condemn them to eternal hell.

[jonhowe]

I'm sorry, but a lot of people in this thread are as bonkers as Huckabee. Learning science is apparently a ticket to hell...?

Like the Republican party, the liberty movement isn't going anywhere if it's stuck in the bronze age.

[yadranko]

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/20593_418755311528020_421727408_n.jpg

[VBRonPaulFan]

Huckabee got the dickings on his facebook post

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/18029_391608480922119_1827713860_n.png

[madengr]

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/20593_418755311528020_421727408_n.jpg

Ha ha, I'm borrowing this for use on a local gun forum.

[Brett85]

The Constitution is supposed to be a document that details what the government can do; not what it cannot do.

The first interpretation would at least suggest a limited government. The second, which you have endorsed in this post, allows for just about anything.

No, the interpretation I endorsed simply calls for freedom of speech. If you're someone who doesn't support freedom of speech, both in private and in public buildings, then you aren't a libertarian or a believer in limited government.

[yadranko]

I'm sorry, but a lot of people in this thread are as bonkers as Huckabee. Learning science is apparently a ticket to hell...?

Like the Republican party, the liberty movement isn't going anywhere if it's stuck in the bronze age.

Very well said, I totally agree!

[Brett85]

The Establishment Clause.



People who want the government to promote their particular faith should ask themselves: is your faith so unpersuasive that you need the force and authority of the state to spread it? And if another faith gains political control and begins to promote its beliefs, will you tolerate it or will you run to the courts to try and get it stopped?

1) So you're going to quote a Supreme Court decision and say that Supreme Court decisions trump the original meaning of the Constitution? I suppose Justice Roberts' decision in the recent health care case means that the Constitution gives the federal government the authority to force Americans to buy health insurance?

2) I've never heard anyone say that the government should promote a certain religious faith. I simply said that people of all faiths should have the right to freedom of speech both in private and government buildings.

[Sola_Fide]

I'm sorry, but a lot of people in this thread are as bonkers as Huckabee. Learning science is apparently a ticket to hell...?

Like the Republican party, the liberty movement isn't going anywhere if it's stuck in the bronze age.

Where did I say "learning science is a ticket to hell"? Evolutionism is not science, it is a religion. And what I said is that the religions of evolutionism and statism confirm young minds in unbelief.

[Brett85]

Most people here profess to support the 2nd amendment, but it's amazing how many people here are opposed to the 1st amendment.

[Sola_Fide]

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/20593_418755311528020_421727408_n.jpg

What "church"? The Roman Catholic church?

It should be no surprise to anyone that there is all kinds of sickening sin in the synagogue of Satan. The gospel is not preached in the Roman Catholic Church and God is not present in it.

[Confederate]

Most people here profess to support the 2nd amendment, but it's amazing how many people here are opposed to the 1st amendment.

I've seen so many "the government has no right to infringe on my right to bear arms" statements, and at the same time so many "the government should ban religion on public property" statements.

[Confederate]

What "church"? The Roman Catholic church?

It should be no surprise to anyone that there is all kinds of sickening sin in the synagogue of Satan. The gospel is not preached in the Roman Catholic Church and God is not present in it.

More anti-Catholic bullshit from you. It's to be expected though from a man who thinks he is infallible and that his god pre-ordained the massacre of innocent chldren.

[Sola_Fide]

More anti-Catholic bullshit from you. It's to be expected though from a man who thinks he is infallible and that his god pre-ordained the massacre of innocent chldren.

"Anti-Catholic"? No...I am equally against all false works-religions.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

How about we have no schools at all? I happen to live in Sandy Hook and I can tell you there is absolutely no need to the government to have any involvement in schools. Everyone has some money, so they can afford a private online education.

Yup, privatize Education. It would better protect the children's safety and they wouldn't be forced to learn government propaganda.

[donnay]

It doesn't, which is my point. The 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making a law establishing a religion. It says nothing about preventing people from expressing their views in government buildings.

No where in the constitution does it even express, imply or suggest anything about education. Go to the root of the problem, you realize the problem.

[Odin]

No Huckabee, the problem is public schools themselves. I guess "Huck" thinks that public schools indoctrinating one more thing into our children will undo all the other indoctrination that causes these problems in the first place. No it won't!

[JK/SEA]

I've seen so many "the government has no right to infringe on my right to bear arms" statements, and at the same time so many "the government should ban religion on public property" statements.

its not really a fair statement. My own opinion is what gives people 'the right' to express their religious doctrine on people who may not want to hear it?...is it that difficult to control yourself from being a pushy little fucker over your ideology on an institution funded by taxpayers?...sure, you have the 'right' to be a pushy little fuck and ram your crap down peoples kids throats. It just shows a complete lack of respect towards people who may not want that shit foisted on their kids. Perhaps we could balance things out and bring in satan worshipers the same time you want to hold a bible study after classes are over.

[Confederate]

its not really a fair statement. My own opinion is what gives people 'the right' to express their religious doctrine on people who may not want to hear it?...is it that difficult to control yourself from being a pushy little fucker over your ideology on an institution funded by taxpayers?...sure, you have the 'right' to be a pushy little fuck and ram your crap down peoples kids throats. It just shows a complete lack of respect towards people who may not want that shit foisted on their kids. Perhaps we could balance things out and bring in satan worshipers the same time you want to hold a bible study after classes are over.

Do you have a right to hold voluntary prayer on school property?
Do you have a right to read a poem that mentions God in public schools?
Do you have a right to acknowledge God in a graduation speech?

According to liberals, you don't.

The only approved religion in public schools is atheism.

[Brett85]

No where in the constitution does it even express, imply or suggest anything about education. Go to the root of the problem, you realize the problem.

You're right. The Constitution doesn't say that the right to free speech contained in the 1st amendment doesn't apply in public schools.

[Odin]

Do you have a right to hold voluntary prayer on school property?
Do you have a right to read a poem that mentions God in public schools?
Do you have a right to acknowledge God in a graduation speech?

According to liberals, you don't.

The only approved religion in public schools is atheism.

I agree with that, but Huckabee seems to be more of the opinion that religion should be officially taught in public schools, and that prayer should be part of the school schedule like saying the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm not sure if that's what he thinks that is just my impression, but I also don't think the lack of prayer is the reason why these things happen.

[Danke]

1) So you're going to quote a Supreme Court decision and say that Supreme Court decisions trump the original meaning of the Constitution? I suppose Justice Roberts' decision in the recent health care case means that the Constitution gives the federal government the authority to force Americans to buy health insurance?

2) I've never heard anyone say that the government should promote a certain religious faith. I simply said that people of all faiths should have the right to freedom of speech both in private and government buildings.

It comes from the argument of the Fourteenth Amendment "Due Process Clause." This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states. The Fourteenth Amendment wasn't even properly ratified.

[JK/SEA]

Do you have a right to hold voluntary prayer on school property?
Do you have a right to read a poem that mentions God in public schools?
Do you have a right to acknowledge God in a graduation speech?

According to liberals, you don't.

The only approved religion in public schools is atheism.

What you propose if i'm reading right, is that ONLY 'christians' have the 'right' to do what you are saying. If thats the case, where does it end?...at graduation we could have a 'christian' prayer...then a Muslim prayer...then a mormon, then a buddhist..then a satan worshiper, then an atheist could give their 'speech''...2-3 hours later we could then start handing out diplomas....i mean, we have to be fair...right?

[Confederate]

What you propose if i'm reading right, is that ONLY 'christians' have the 'right' to do what you are saying. If thats the case, where does it end?...at graduation we could have a 'christian' prayer...then a Muslim prayer...then a mormon, then a buddhist..then a satan worshiper, then an atheist could give their 'speech''...2-3 hours later we could then start handing out diplomas....i mean, we have to be fair...right?

That's not what I said.

I'm asking:

Do you have a right to hold voluntary prayer on school property?
Do you have a right to read a poem that mentions God in public schools?
Do you have a right to acknowledge God in a graduation speech?

None of that involves coercion or pushing any religion on anyone, yet they are all banned in public schools.

[Sola_Fide]

That's not what I said.

I'm asking:

Do you have a right to hold voluntary prayer on school property?
Do you have a right to read a poem that mentions God in public schools?
Do you have a right to acknowledge God in a graduation speech?

None of that involves coercion or pushing any religion on anyone, yet they are all banned in public schools.

Don't you see that the reason that all the things you mention are huge issues is precisely because schools are public schools?

Where are there huge debates about prayer or God in homeschools or private schools?

[Danan]

Even if it was considered "endorsing" a religion, the Constutition doesn't forbid "endorsing" a religion. It simply forbids establishing a religion, meaning that Congress can't pass a law forcing people to attend a state sponsored church.

So no law or action of the executive branch that the Constitution does not specifically forbid can be considered bad?

[Brett85]

So no law or action of the executive branch that the Constitution does not specifically forbid can be considered bad?

What do you mean by "action of the executive branch?" We aren't discussing the executive branch. We're discussing whether local school districts have the right to stop people from speaking freely in a government building.

[Dr.3D]

its not really a fair statement. My own opinion is what gives people 'the right' to express their religious doctrine on people who may not want to hear it?...is it that difficult to control yourself from being a pushy little fucker over your ideology on an institution funded by taxpayers?...sure, you have the 'right' to be a pushy little fuck and ram your crap down peoples kids throats. It just shows a complete lack of respect towards people who may not want that shit foisted on their kids. Perhaps we could balance things out and bring in satan worshipers the same time you want to hold a bible study after classes are over.
Since no one is doing anything physical to them, is it really that hard for them to ignore people who are doing something they don't like? They can always put their fingers in their ears and hum while the prayer is being said.

[paulbot24]

Since no one is doing anything physical to them, is it really that hard for them to ignore people who are doing something they don't like? They can always put their fingers in their ears and hum while the prayer is being said.

That trick should be called "doing the O'Reilly." I do it all the time at my mother-in-law's house with Fox News! That show is so bad I look forward to tampon commercials.

[bunklocoempire]

"Violence in Schools Because We Systematically Removed God"

lol

Judging from his every action, Huck's god (small 'g') is the god of force, yet here he is mentioning my God (capital 'G') the God of Love.

Huckabee is a pawn for evil -always muddying up the subject and injecting fear, false pride, and outrage.:mad:

[Natural Citizen]

Where did I say "learning science is a ticket to hell"? Evolutionism is not science, it is a religion. And what I said is that the religions of evolutionism and statism confirm young minds in unbelief.

It's "Evolution". What the heck is it with all of the isms added to everything? You can put an ism on the end of anything you please but that doesn't mean you get to create the terms of controversy for making it a religion just because you're religious and throw the ism on the end of it.

I dont really care what people do with Religion in school. I really don't. Keep it out of my science classroom though.

I swear, we have all of these threads discussing this incident and out comes this self rightous politician with the same old spew and the minions go ape shit with bad energy. That's all I ever see from anything that has the term Religion attached to it. Nothing but a big old can of unruly bad energy gets opened up. Every single time. It never fails. The discussion I've read here seems like just another example of it's application to destroy society and turn them against one another and remove critical discussion and thought. I mean look at what it's done here in this thread alone.

Are we still engraving scriptures on our bombs, I wonder? It's nuts. Gosh.

[alucard13mmfmj]

Huckabee got the dickings on his facebook post

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/18029_391608480922119_1827713860_n.png

Wow. That is disgusting. Were there criminal charges like animal cruelty? Can someone say serial killer or mass killer quality right there?

[JK/SEA]

Since no one is doing anything physical to them, is it really that hard for them to ignore people who are doing something they don't like? They can always put their fingers in their ears and hum while the prayer is being said.

you totally miss the point.

Ask Native Americans about Christian Indoctrination Schools. I wonder what would have happened if they had 'just put their fingers in their ears'...

[Feeding the Abscess]

No, the interpretation I endorsed simply calls for freedom of speech. If you're someone who doesn't support freedom of speech, both in private and in public buildings, then you aren't a libertarian or a believer in limited government.

Libertarians believe in property rights over free speech, and this:


1) Where do you read in the Constitution that the government is forbidden from "promoting one religion over another?"

supposes that the Constitution is a document that says what the government cannot do.

[Nirvikalpa]

He's wrong, God was there. We are just so hellbent on thinking he wasn't that we miss that he spoke, when Vicki Soto told the shooter all her kids were in gym class, after ushering them all into the closets and cabinets, and it was he who empowered three women to lunge at the shooter in attempts to stop him.