What if Ron Paul wins the 2013 CPAC straw poll?

[unknown]

Would there be a point in pushing for a Ron Paul victory?

If not, whom should we back?

Although the media outlets dismiss the outcome (usually when it was Ron Paul), the winner still gets mentioned and a boost.

[Gage]

Rand Paul 2016.

[paulbot24]

Rand Paul 2016.

Well said.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Ever see an athlete hang around past their prime? It isn't pretty. Stop trying to tarnish Ron's legacy and turn him into Lyndon LaRouche.

Rand 2016.

[alucard13mmfmj]

Rand Paul unless someone better AND has a better chance of winning comes along.

[KrokHead]

Would there be a point in pushing for a Ron Paul victory?


Last time I checked he was kinda up there on the years. I think his plan for 2016 is "don't die."

[BuddyRey]

I'd love to see Ron Paul win it again in '13. He's in no way past his prime (just now coming into it, in fact), and still has a LOT to teach the young guns in the liberty movement before leaving.

[compromise]

Better to support Rand Paul. A 2013 CPAC win will gain him more momentum for 2016.

[FrankRep]

Rand Paul 2016.

[sailingaway]

I'd love it if Ron won, but those things take organization, and I don't see C4L doing it, do you? It isn't far away, at this point.

Ron didn't even do the one DURING 2012 once he found out the media was never going to report it anyhow. Everyone knows he can win those any time he tries.

But still, it would be terrific!

[LibertyEagle]

I'd love it if Ron won, but those things take organization, and I don't see C4L doing it, do you?

:confused:

Well, yes, if that was the plan. They were the ones who organized it in the past.

But, I seriously doubt that Ron running again is going to be the plan. Ron is taking on a different role.

[sailingaway]

I meant, I'd love it, as a daydream, just to rub it in their faces, but I don't see C4L (whom I know did it last time with YAL) doing it this year, when they didn't even do it in the campaign, and if they were going to, I think we'd know by now.

[Tinnuhana]

Do you think we could get enough support there to have Ron and Rand (or Rand and Ron) # 1 & 2? Now that would be awesome and cause some waves. it's only 2013, so it could be like symbolically passing the baton off to Rand.

[Anti-Neocon]

Do you think we could get enough support there to have Ron and Rand (or Rand and Ron) # 1 & 2? Now that would be awesome and cause some waves. it's only 2013, so it could be like symbolically passing the baton off to Rand.
And it would also be terrible for political purposes.

[NY-Dano]

I meant, I'd love it, as a daydream, just to rub it in their faces, but I don't see C4L (whom I know did it last time with YAL) doing it this year, when they didn't even do it in the campaign, and if they were going to, I think we'd know by now.

During the campaign there was all this talk in the MSM about how the Values Voter Summit was 'the new CPAC," so I think the campaign just wanted to focus on VVS. CPAC is still 3 months away, they haven't even announced the speaking lineup. I imagine CFL and YAL will start organizing after the holidays and when the kids get back to school. It even might be just the state CFL's in the region organizing, which should be sufficient for a win... but of course supporters from near and far are welcome :-)

Edit: and by win, I mean for Rand.

[69360]

Still?

He's retired and passed the torch.

[itshappening]

Ron will be in his 80's by 2016. Forget about it and let him retire for gods sake.

It's Rand Paul all the way !

[sailingaway]

Still?

He's retired and passed the torch.

He is entering a different stage, he hasn't passed a torch. And note the subforum you are in, which is particularly about him, even within the larger board inspired by him. I think it would be cool if he won, to punctuate that his campaign for liberty never ends, and is just taking a different turn. I'd rather see the money spent getting him to colleges, I guess, but I do think it would be cool.

[klamath]

Waste of time and money and makes a mockery of Ron. Ron has a lot of respect now don't blow it with stupid attempts like this.

[sailingaway]

Waste of time and money and makes a mockery of Ron. Ron has a lot of respect now don't blow it with stupid attempts like this.

but you aren't speaking for him but because you want people focused on someone else. But not everyone is, at least yet, and people in Ron's forum WILL be discussing projects to raise his profile, even if this one doesnt' go forward.

[klamath]

but you aren't speaking for him but because you want people focused on someone else. But not everyone is, at least yet, and people in Ron's forum WILL be discussing projects to raise his profile, even if this one doesnt' go forward.
You are entitled to YOUR opinion.

[sailingaway]

You are entitled to YOUR opinion.

sure, but if you were speculating on a project to raise your candidate's profile and people who hang out in this subforum or elsewhere on the board flooded the start of each thread saying not to do it, I don't think you would appreciate it.

[PatriotOne]

Ron would be thrilled if his son won CPAC. He would wonder about the mental status of some of his supporters if they voted for him at this point. I know I do...lol.

[klamath]

sure, but if you were speculating on a project to raise your candidate's profile and people who hang out in this subforum or elsewhere on the board flooded the start of each thread saying not to do it, I don't think you would appreciate it.
Ron isn't a candidate. Flooded because the majority of the RP people know what will keep RP respected and listened too. They want to preserve that respect.

[sailingaway]

so it would be better if your candidate's subforum was flooded with people saying people shouldn't attempt to raise his profile because their candidate would only embarrass himself?

[mz10]

sure, but if you were speculating on a project to raise your candidate's profile and people who hang out in this subforum or elsewhere on the board flooded the start of each thread saying not to do it, I don't think you would appreciate it.

I just think CPAC should be a venue for potential presidential candidates. I agree that we shouldn't just ditch Ron now that he's retired, but there are a lot of other ways to raise his profile, I think our CPAC efforts should be focused on Rand.

[PatriotOne]

so it would be better if your candidate's subforum was flooded with people saying people shouldn't attempt to raise his profile because their candidate would only embarrass himself?

I think the point is since Ron is not even a candidate, nor does he desire to be, it would be really silly to promote him as a candidate at CPAC. For those who do, Ron needs to start getting restraining orders from them since they are clearly dillusional stalkers.

[klamath]

so it would be better if your candidate's subforum was flooded with people saying people shouldn't attempt to raise his profile because their candidate would only embarrass himself?
You let that happen anyway. There is always someone on there pushing Nap or someone else. You use your power as a moderator exactly opposite of the constitutional rule of law espoused by RP.

[sailingaway]

I just think CPAC should be a venue for potential presidential candidates. I agree that we shouldn't just ditch Ron now that he's retired, but there are a lot of other ways to raise his profile, I think our CPAC efforts should be focused on Rand.

well, people will support whomever they support. I already said I thought other projects might be better than this, unless Ron WANTED to make a Cpac speech for some reason of his own, everyone knows he can win it any time he wants to, already. However, not everyone in this subforum is focused on 2016 yet, and there are other reasons to want headlines.

[sailingaway]

You let that happen anyway. There is always someone on there pushing Nap or someone else. You use your power as a moderator exactly opposite of the constitutional rule of law espoused by RP.

This site is private property so I don't see where the Constitution applies. I recall Ron Paul believing in private property. However, I'm not in that forum much so you might need to report bad action. It is just that that is not the ONLY forum where the person the forum is for gets deference.

[CaptLouAlbano]

I think this is a fine idea for those who wish to champion it. Organize yourselves, purchase the tickets, travel & lodge together and cast your votes. You just need one of your to head it up and organize it. If this is a grassroots initiative, I am sure one of you will be willing to take the lead on this.

[69360]

He is entering a different stage, he hasn't passed a torch. And note the subforum you are in, which is particularly about him, even within the larger board inspired by him. I think it would be cool if he won, to punctuate that his campaign for liberty never ends, and is just taking a different turn. I'd rather see the money spent getting him to colleges, I guess, but I do think it would be cool.

Come on this is silly and a waste of time and money that could be put toward worthwhile causes. CPAC is a presidential straw poll for candidates intent on running in the next primary. Ron's son has already publicly announced that he is interested in running in 2016. Simple common sense says he is not running against his dad. It's really time to think about letting it go...

[LibertyEagle]

This site is private property so I don't see where the Constitution applies. I recall Ron Paul believing in private property. However, I'm not in that forum much so you might need to report bad action. It is just that that is not the ONLY forum where the person the forum is for gets deference.

Sailing, I give Ron a lot of deference, which is why I don't want to make a mockery of him.

[sailingaway]

Come on this is silly and a waste of time and money that could be put toward worthwhile causes. CPAC is a presidential straw poll for candidates intent on running in the next primary. Ron's son has already publicly announced that he is interested in running in 2016. Simple common sense says he is not running against his dad. It's really time to think about letting it go...

What is worthwhile is the opinion of the person spending the money.

As I said multiple times in this thread, I don't think this is particular venue (CPAC) right now would be the best, myself, more because everyone knows Ron can do it, and I'd personally rather do something to drive attention to his speaking or whatever he is doing after January. But that is just me. My point is more that even Rand is saying he won't start talking about this for about two years, and Ron did the same, starting to go for CPAC in 2010 (note my join date, until then I was just lurking occassionally.)

SOME here are so excited about the idea of Rand running they want to get started right away and that is terrific to be that excited over a candidate, and Rand has a subforum here to plan whatever projects you want to plan, however realistic or farfetched they might be. But even some people who will be supporting Rand two years from now aren't focusing on that race now, and Ron is just leaving congress, and people in HIS subforum should also be able to plan and brainstorm to raise Ron's profile, whether they are or are not plans that aren't going to end up being acted on.

[sailingaway]

Sailing, I give Ron a lot of deference, which is why I don't want to make a mockery of him.

He'd win.

I agree it is only worth doing if there is a purpose to be served by that, however.

[satchelmcqueen]

id love if ron won just to say a big FU to the gop.

but rand would be good also. he needs momentum NOW.

[SpreadOfLiberty]

Ron Pau's straw poll wins have showed us that they are aweful predictors.

[LibertyEagle]

He'd win.

I agree it is only worth doing if there is a purpose to be served by that, however.

He'd win if we stacked it like we did before, yes. But, my comment pertained more to him running for President again. I want to keep his good name intact.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Ron would be thrilled if his son won CPAC. He would wonder about the mental status of some of his supporters if they voted for him at this point. I know I do...lol.
If Rand won CPAC I suspect the media might clamor to interview both the Pauls. This would make for some good face time. Of course if we don't come out to support Rand, Marco Rubio gets to bask in the media spotlight instead of our guys.

[jkob]

Who do you think Ron would vote for at CPAC?

It's Rand's time to shine, for better or worse. A CPAC win would be a good start, don't want Rubio to win do we?

[asurfaholic]

A vote for Rand *is* a vote for Ron. I think it is much more important, politically, that Rand wins, and starts showing his ability to lead and win things.

I honestly believe he is capable of overcoming media bias, and charming the pants off of the normal republican voting block. He doesn't come across as kooky (the biggest complaint I heard about Ron) and the neo-cons shouldn't see him as much of a threat, since he seems to vote for sanctions and stuff. Makes him look more... i dunno, neoconish. I believe that Rand would do the right things in office though, so I dont hold that against him.

[FSP-Rebel]

Who do you think Ron would vote for at CPAC?

It's Rand's time to shine, for better or worse. A CPAC win would be a good start, don't want Rubio to win do we?
Oh gawd, if we let Rubio win Rushbo and Hannity will be shouting it from the mountain tops, sickening. Whether Rand is waiting to finalize his plans or not, it sure would help things if the roots mobilize a win for him at this venue since he'll likely be speaking anyways. His win would get more media traction than Ron's past ones have. He'll probably even score some decent interviews and be treated more fair as a future contender for the nomination. At least the seed would be planted that he'd be a strong candidate esp if the GOP voters want help from us libcons to fend off Hillary.

[jcannon98188]

Ron isn't a candidate. Flooded because the majority of the RP people know what will keep RP respected and listened too. They want to preserve that respect.

Neither is Rand at this point. AFAIK no one is a candidate yet. Stop trying to act like Rand the anointed one Paul is the next GOP Nominee already.

[klamath]

Neither is Rand at this point. AFAIK no one is a candidate yet. Stop trying to act like Rand the anointed one Paul is the next GOP Nominee already.
What is it with you people. Did you even fucking bother to read the OP? The question. Should we support Ron or should we support someone else? So people gave their fucking opinion on the questions. Got it? Because people supporting Rand running as the someone else were the majority you and a certain moderator threw a hissy fit.

[jcannon98188]

What is it with you people. Did you even fucking bother to read the OP? The question. Should we support Ron or should we support someone else? So people gave their fucking opinion on the questions. Got it? Because people supporting Rand running as the someone else were the majority you and a certain moderator threw a hissy fit.

You said, and I quote.
Ron isn't a candidate.

Thus, my statement of "Neither is Rand" is correct. OP asked a theoretical question; if Ron won CPAC straw poll, should we support him for pres, or should we still look for someone else.

[klamath]

You said, and I quote.

Thus, my statement of "Neither is Rand" is correct. OP asked a theoretical question; if Ron won CPAC straw poll, should we support him for pres, or should we still look for someone else.
Yes in a response to a moderator accusing Rand backers of putting down the candidacy of of Ron despite the questions asked in the OP.

[ChristianAnarchist]

I want a "Paul - Paul" ticket in 2016 (If we are still a republic then). Don't see why we can't have Ron Paul as pres and Rand as VP. That way we don't have to worry about his "age" because if he drops, Rand takes the seat. Anyway, have you seen him on that bicycle? Don't think he'll be gone anytime soon...

Besides, Rand has stated that he will be running to keep his Senatorial seat in 2016 which makes him unable to run for pres...

[unknown]

Ron Pau's straw poll wins have showed us that they are aweful predictors.

Not necessarily. A real, free election process was never permitted.

Ron was set to win Iowa. We lost due to an all out media blitz, a media driven "Santorum surge" and the GOP telling people to vote for anyone else.

Would a win in Iowa have been enough to carry us through the rest of the primaries... we'll never know.

[unknown]

I believe that Rand would do the right things in office though, so I dont hold that against him.

This has been my feeling as well. That hes been making nice with the GOP status quo in order to ensure that at-least one freedom fighter remains.

[Fredom101]

Anarchy 2016.

Rand is a huge step down from Ron.

[deadfish]

Is anyone in this thread planning on attending?

[devil21]

Umm, I think having Ron Paul win CPAC 2013 would be rather embarrassing to Rand Paul.

[sailingaway]

Umm, I think having Ron Paul win CPAC 2013 would be rather embarrassing to Rand Paul.

I don't know, he has said he isn't going to start discussing any possible run until 2014. It could be a last 'straw poll' type win to kick off Ron's post House speaking tour and C4L role, illustrating that the Campaign for Liberty isn't confined to election season.

I like the idea of the Ron/Rand thing, but I'd actually be kind of surprised if there was that much focus on CPAC this year.

[ClydeCoulter]

Umm, I think having Ron Paul win CPAC 2013 would be rather embarrassing to Rand Paul.

Wow, really? My son wouldn't be embarrased if I won a poll, even if his friends wanted him to win.

[MelissaWV]

Wow, really? My son wouldn't be embarrased if I won a poll, even if his friends wanted him to win.

If your son were running for prom king and you won, when you weren't even attending the school, he might be embarrassed for a few reasons....

[ClydeCoulter]

If your son were running for prom king and you won, when you weren't even attending the school, he might be embarrassed for a few reasons....

I don't see the corelation. Ron could still Run as president, I could not take the prom queen to the prom.

[MelissaWV]

I don't see the corelation. Ron could still Run as president, I could not take the prom queen to the prom.

Ron has retired from Congress (which is something most folks would not do if they were going to continue to pursue higher office). From an embarrassment standpoint, it would mean Rand had pretty craptastic support. I don't think Rand has to win this CPAC, since almost no one will pay attention to it, but losing to Ron after Ron isn't even in politics anymore would look bad.

[sailingaway]

Ron has retired from Congress (which is something most folks would not do if they were going to continue to pursue higher office). From an embarrassment standpoint, it would mean Rand had pretty craptastic support. I don't think Rand has to win this CPAC, since almost no one will pay attention to it, but losing to Ron after Ron isn't even in politics anymore would look bad.

Are you sure Rand is even going to be on the ballot? In any event, do you have a different suggestion to raise Ron's profile in media, then, since it has dropped him, essentially? Because to be honest, I think that is the only purpose a CPAC win would serve, in 2013, for ANYONE.

[Agorism]

Need an official plan for it, and some top down leadership from C4L would be helpful that way votes don't get split and people have time to plan for it.

[Dystopian]

I don't care who wins it, because CPAC is a joke.

[MelissaWV]

Are you sure Rand is even going to be on the ballot? In any event, do you have a different suggestion to raise Ron's profile in media, then, since it has dropped him, essentially? Because to be honest, I think that is the only purpose a CPAC win would serve, in 2013, for ANYONE.

I was addressing the "I don't get it" post about Rand being embarrassed if Ron won and Rand lost to him. I really don't think there's a point to CPAC in 2013. The media's ready to hop on the winner as being whatever cliche fits their narrative.

[ClydeCoulter]

Ron has retired from Congress (which is something most folks would not do if they were going to continue to pursue higher office). From an embarrassment standpoint, it would mean Rand had pretty craptastic support. I don't think Rand has to win this CPAC, since almost no one will pay attention to it, but losing to Ron after Ron isn't even in politics anymore would look bad.

Losing to Ron? That would assume that Rand is competing with Ron. I don't see any competition there.

And, I think more people are waking up to "Wow, Ron Paul may have been right". But, surely more exposure for Ron will only help Rand, if Rand sticks with the message.

[69360]

Umm, I think having Ron Paul win CPAC 2013 would be rather embarrassing to Rand Paul.

Yes it would, we'd look like a bunch of lunatics who can't let go.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Yes it would, we'd look like a bunch of lunatics who can't let go.
I agree. We'd be seen as a personality cult instead of a real liberty movement.

[sailingaway]

I agree. We'd be seen as a personality cult instead of a real liberty movement.

Would you appreciate these sort of comments in the subforum of the candidate you prefer?

One thing that has always been true in connection to RON Paul is that his campaigns are not only campaigns in the electoral but educational sense. His getting higher media profile continues that educational campaign, and many of us are eager to make sure he continues to have that high profile, regardless of whether he runs for office again. In part this is because he is NOT getting any younger and yet is the most effective voice for liberty in this generation, at least, speaking for myself, I think he is.

Trashing those who support him because you want them to focus on someone else, in his subforum, is no more ok than others trashing you for supporting your candidate in your candidate's subforum. People will be continuing to brainstorm ways to raise Ron's profile in media, and this is one of them. He has a subforum specifically to allow his supporters to support him, discuss him, and brainstorm support.

Personally, I think this way (CPAC) is less bang for the buck than other possibilities, but that is a personal assessment, speaking as a Ron Paul supporter.

I was thinking of a money bomb to support appearance guarantees at colleges where he gets petitions of over 1000 students who want to see him, but Ron may already have a mechanism planned for that.

but I do think we should be brainstorming ways to direct more attention his way.

[ClydeCoulter]

I'm glad this "Let him retire, don't be a personality cult, let's not embarrass..." attitude didn't exist in 2008 and 2012...

[devil21]

This is why it's embarrassing to Rand if Ron were to win CPAC. The establishment's 2016 hopefuls are already announcing speaking roles and will be placed front and center. Like it or not, Rand is going against them, not Ron.

I am curious why the article says Ron Paul is speaking but not Rand yet. Is that accurate??

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/content/marco-rubio-jeb-bush-featured-speakers-cpac-2013



Sen. Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush are two of the top name speakers for CPAC 2013, the American Conservative Union announced today.

The Floridians will join Sen.-elect Ted Cruz, Sen. Jim DeMint, Gov. Susana Martinez, Rep. Ron Paul, Rep. Paul Ryan and Sen.-designate Tim Scott.

[eleganz]

Yes it would, we'd look like a bunch of lunatics who can't let go.

People were saying that about us for the last 5 years, now all of a sudden people care about how we 'look'?

lol

[emazur]

To answer the OP's question, nothing would happen. It wouldn't make Ron even consider throwing his hat in the ring, it wouldn't result in a "draft Ron Paul" movement, and it wouldn't change the minds of the establishment. I doubt Ron would even want his name in the CPAC poll.

As has been said already, the man has retired from public office.

Stop beating a dead horse.

[devil21]

People were saying that about us for the last 5 years, now all of a sudden people care about how we 'look'?

lol

There were a lot of us that cared how we looked and still care because taking control requires a certain appearance. If Ron wins CPAC we are just fulfilling what they said. Ron himself always said this movement was never about him, but the message.

[eleganz]

There were a lot of us that cared how we looked and still care because taking control requires a certain appearance. If Ron wins CPAC we are just fulfilling what they said. Ron himself always said this movement was never about him, but the message.

So if you cared about how you appeared to the masses, why do you use phrasing like 'taking control'? Didn't you know it forces them to put up their shields and be aggressive to what you're trying to achieve?

Sure most of us know this movement is not about him but for MOST people, its still all about Ron and nobody can ignite the base like he can.

When it comes down to it, it is fun to play around with ideas but the people coordinating these efforts will be the ones deciding what really happens. Only those who don't do anything are scared of the outcome. I'm not scared of the outcome.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Would you appreciate these sort of comments in the subforum of the candidate you prefer?

One thing that has always been true in connection to RON Paul is that his campaigns are not only campaigns in the electoral but educational sense. His getting higher media profile continues that educational campaign, and many of us are eager to make sure he continues to have that high profile, regardless of whether he runs for office again. In part this is because he is NOT getting any younger and yet is the most effective voice for liberty in this generation, at least, speaking for myself, I think he is.

Trashing those who support him because you want them to focus on someone else, in his subforum, is no more ok than others trashing you for supporting your candidate in your candidate's subforum. People will be continuing to brainstorm ways to raise Ron's profile in media, and this is one of them. He has a subforum specifically to allow his supporters to support him, discuss him, and brainstorm support.

Personally, I think this way (CPAC) is less bang for the buck than other possibilities, but that is a personal assessment, speaking as a Ron Paul supporter.

I was thinking of a money bomb to support appearance guarantees at colleges where he gets petitions of over 1000 students who want to see him, but Ron may already have a mechanism planned for that.

but I do think we should be brainstorming ways to direct more attention his way.
Stop making it about one man. How many times does Ron himself have to say this before it sinks in? Also, you should give up your moderator power if you continually choose to abuse it by playing this divide and conquer game.

[Bastiat's The Law]

There were a lot of us that cared how we looked and still care because taking control requires a certain appearance. If Ron wins CPAC we are just fulfilling what they said. Ron himself always said this movement was never about him, but the message.
Honestly, we'd be laughed out of the building. Makes us look like we just can't let go.

[trey4sports]

Meh, i dont think anyone out there is that great.

[sailingaway]

To answer the OP's question, nothing would happen. It wouldn't make Ron even consider throwing his hat in the ring, it wouldn't result in a "draft Ron Paul" movement, and it wouldn't change the minds of the establishment. I doubt Ron would even want his name in the CPAC poll.

As has been said already, the man has retired from public office.

Stop beating a dead horse.

But in a year when CPAC doesn't matter to most people, it would be a way to remind people he is continuing his campaign for Liberty, and to maybe get the same people who didn't listen before because they were rooting for someone else, to listen with a less defensive ear.

Now that he has been invited I do hope he goes, but I don't know that it is fair to expect him to when he is asking for an appearance fee from most organizations (there either will be or is something in place to let donations subsidize student appearances, I feel sure.)

How is the 'Defender of the Constitution' award picked?

[sailingaway]

Stop making it about one man. How many times does Ron himself have to say this before it sinks in?

You just want to make it about one other man. I support a number of people, but so far Ron still carries the banner for me, simply because he is the one who inspires me most. When someone else does, I'm completely open to that as well.

[helmuth_hubener]

That would be cool if he won. I would smile.

But that's a bunch of money going into the coffers of these scumbags at CPAC, who will use it to further the cause of evil. Maybe it would be better to spend it going to the Austrian Economics Research Conference 2013, which is happening around the same time, in March. https://www.mises.org/events/167/Austrian-Economics-Research-Conference-2013-formerly-ASC

[sailingaway]

That would be cool if he won. I would smile.

But that's a bunch of money going into the coffers of these scumbags at CPAC, who will use it to further the cause of evil. Maybe it would be better to spend it going to the Austrian Economics Research Conference 2013, which is happening around the same time, in March. https://www.mises.org/events/167/Austrian-Economics-Research-Conference-2013-formerly-ASC

I don't know if the blocks of seats will be purchased, or for that matter if this particular venue is important enough to Ron to forgo his new speaking fee. But I'd like to see him speak there, or at similar places, not just to those who already agree with us.

---
edit, my browser/virusware didn't like your link?

[69360]

People were saying that about us for the last 5 years, now all of a sudden people care about how we 'look'?

lol

There is a potential candidate who's declared interest who does care how he looks.

[NorfolkPCSolutions]

Contender #2 would be declared the winner by a HUGE margin. If this has already been posted, I'm sorry.

The troll in me would absolutely revel in such a victory.

[helmuth_hubener]

edit, my browser/virusware didn't like your link? Don't worry, it's just the NSA trying to censor you from going to the Mises Institute site. ;)

[sailingaway]

Don't worry, it's just the NSA trying to censor you from going to the Mises Institute site. ;)

:p

I've been there before. It must be a sudden allergy.