Nelson Mandela 'Proven' To Be Communist Party Member, After Decades of Denial

[FrankRep]

http://www.jbs.org/images/stories/mandelaslovo.001.jpg (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/2855-rachel-maddow-exposes-her-youth-inexperience-and-political-correctness)http://www.jbs.org/images/stories/mandelasvictory.001.jpg (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/2855-rachel-maddow-exposes-her-youth-inexperience-and-political-correctness)


How to be a Good Communist (http://archive.org/details/HowToBeAGoodCommunist), by Nelson Mandela



Nelson Mandela 'proven' to be a member of the Communist Party after decades of denial (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nelson-mandela/9731522/Nelson-Mandela-proven-to-be-a-member-of-the-Communist-Party-after-decades-of-denial.html)
A new book claims that, 50 years after he was first accused of being a Communist, Nelson Mandela was a Communist party member after all.


Telegraph UK
08 Dec 2012


For decades, it was one of the enduring disputes of South Africa's anti-apartheid struggle. Was Nelson Mandela, the leader of the African National Congress, really a secret Communist, as the white-only government of the time alleged? Or, as he claimed during the infamous 1963 trial that saw him jailed for life, was it simply a smear to discredit him in a world riven by Cold War tensions?

Now, nearly half a century after the court case that made him the world's best-known prisoner of conscience, a new book claims that whatever the wider injustice perpetrated, the apartheid-era prosecutors were indeed right on one question: Mr Mandela was a Communist party member after all.

The former South African president, who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993, has always denied being a member of the South African branch of the movement, which mounted an armed campaign of guerrilla resistance along with the ANC.

But research by a British historian, Professor Stephen Ellis, has unearthed fresh evidence that during his early years as an activist, Mr Mandela did hold senior rank in the South African Communist Party, or SACP. He says Mr Mandela joined the SACP to enlist the help of the Communist superpowers for the ANC's campaign of armed resistance to white rule.
...

While other SACP members have previously confirmed Mr Mandela's party membership, many of their testimonies were given under duress in police interviews, where they might have sought to implicate him. However, the minutes from the 1982 SACP meeting, said Prof Ellis, offered more reliable proof. "This is written in a closed party meeting so nobody is trying to impress or mislead the public," he said.

Although Mr Mandela appears to have joined the SACP more for their political connections than their ideas, his membership could have damaged his standing in the West had it been disclosed while he was still fighting to dismantle apartheid.

Africa was a Cold War proxy battleground until the end of the 1980s, and international support for his cause, which included the Free Nelson Mandela campaign in Britain, drew partly on his image as a compromise figure loyal neither to East nor West.
...

Full Story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nelson-mandela/9731522/Nelson-Mandela-proven-to-be-a-member-of-the-Communist-Party-after-decades-of-denial.html

[dillo]

People don't celebrate him for his economic ideas.

[FrankRep]

People don't celebrate him for his economic ideas.

That's why Progressive Leftists celebrate him: He's a "communist terrorist thug."

====

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z_-jUmlpAXk/S3v89lM9vcI/AAAAAAAABT0/yJeMtdMOxjU/s400/Mandela+and+Fidel.jpg


"Invictus" and the Truth About Mandela (http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/invictus-and-the-truth-about-mandela)


John Birch Society
Dec 11, 2009



The image of Mandela among Americans is a man who started out as a protestor of his government’s policy of apartheid only to find himself imprisoned for this peaceful protest. He has been welcomed and honored in almost every capitol around the world. He has had countless streets, parks, monuments, and schools names after him.

The “conservative” President George W. Bush awarded him the Medal of Freedom. Queen Elizabeth II knighted him. The Nobel Peace Prize committee awarded him their prize, just as they did Obama.

And, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics issued a commemorative stamp in his honor in 1988. This is a clue as to who Mandela really is.

There are many, many pictures showing Mandela at communist functions, standing below the hammer and sickle and giving the communist salute. Presiding over communist conventions and other events staged by the South African Communist Party.

These photographs never seemed to make it into The New York Times or Time magazine however. Americans have never been able to receive the entire story about the revolutions that take place overseas, be it in South Africa, Cuba, or Venezuela ― until it is too late. A variety of techniques have been used to deprive us of pertinent facts, but none have been more successful than simply not reporting or showing the facts. You do not need to twist the facts, only withhold the facts.

For in truth, Mandela is nothing more than a communist terrorist thug (http://images.google.com/images?q=mandela%20communist&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi), placed in prison because he was about to launch a terrorist campaign against South Africans, aimed more against the black population than the white.

Indeed, while in prison Mandela’s then wife, Winnie, was screaming in every speech that they would use their necklaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing) and matches to further the revolution. This was a reference to the automobile tires that they placed over the heads of their victims, soaked in petrol and set ablaze while their anti-communist victims writhed in excruciating pain until death came after twenty minutes to an hour. This was a common occurrence.

Almost always, the victims of these communists were black Africans, the people they told the world that they were working to free. These acts were usually done in broad daylight, on the street to send a message to the black community: opposition to the communist revolution will be met with brutal reprisal.

This is not the grandfatherly image of Mandela given to the world by the media. It says more about the media than it does about Mandela.

And, it says more about Hollywood as well.

Even today, Americans can not be allowed by our controlled media to understand that South Africa has a communist government. Africa is rapidly going communist as are the nations south of our own border. We are being manipulated into keeping our eyes on the Middle East. The danger looms elsewhere.

Communism is really only dead in the minds of the American people. It is too bad that we do not see a reality show in television about that.

[sparebulb]

A few years back, there was a hot thread here on this forum where several alleged free-market, libertarian-leaning Ron Paul supporters here defended Mandela as being the greatest of all human beings. It was a sad testimonial to the power of public school and university education.

[FrankRep]

A few years back, there was a hot thread here on this forum where several alleged free-market, libertarian-leaning Ron Paul supporters here defended Mandela as being the greatest of all human beings. It was a sad testimonial to the power of public school and university education.

Yep. I remember that. I called Nelson Mandela a Communist back then too.


RonPaulForums.com: The Ron Paul Nelson Mandela comparison (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?284452-The-Ron-Paul-Nelson-Mandela-comparison)
March 22, 2011




Furthermore, Mandela and Ron Paul are both strong advocates for peace and advocates of liberty. I know that Mandela had some communist ties, but to the average American Mandela is seen very positively.

We should draw the comparison.

Comparing Ron Paul to a Communist?

http://www.hnp.org.za/site/uploads/pics/mandela-winnie-slovo-flag.jpg

[JustinTime]

People don't celebrate him for his economic ideas.

Communism is much more than a mere economic idea.

[AGRP]

These days, Zionism seems to be a bigger issue. How many people have died from it?

[FrankRep]

A few years back, there was a hot thread here on this forum where several alleged free-market, libertarian-leaning Ron Paul supporters here defended Mandela as being the greatest of all human beings. It was a sad testimonial to the power of public school and university education.

Actually, here's the thread you're talking about from 2010. I still called him a Communist. heh.

Thoughts on Nelson Mandela? Thoughts on the movie? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?225328-Thoughts-on-Nelson-Mandela-Thoughts-on-the-movie)
Jan. 04, 2010

[itshappening]

the commie is on his deathbed.

[awake]

Communism is the current word for a terrible and timeless idea. The idea might work in Eden, but it is slavery and extinction in the physical world.

[idiom]

Bloody communists standing up for individualism all time...

[JustinTime]

These days, Zionism seems to be a bigger issue. How many people have died from it?

Communism was an idea cooked up to allow Zionists to divide populations, first along class lines, and later when Cultural Marxism evolved, along every other line you can think of.

Its envy really. They encourage envy among people, get the majority seething with envy and then to vote themselves (not really themselves, actually Communist demagogues) control of all wealth and power... uh, so that it may redistributed it in a fair manner, of course.

[FrankRep]

Bloody communists standing up for individualism all time...

In reality....


Wikipedia: Nelson Mandela - Armed anti-apartheid activities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Armed_anti-apartheid_activities)


In 1961 Mandela became leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated Spear of the Nation, and also abbreviated MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated sabotage campaigns against military and government targets, making plans for a possible guerrilla war if the sabotage failed to end apartheid. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad and arranged for paramilitary training of the group.

Fellow ANC member Wolfie Kodesh explains the bombing campaign led by Mandela: "When we knew that we [sic] going to start on 16 December 1961, to blast the symbolic places of apartheid, like pass offices, native magistrates courts, and things like that ... post offices and ... the government offices. But we were to do it in such a way that nobody would be hurt, nobody would get killed." Mandela said of Wolfie: "His knowledge of warfare and his first hand battle experience were extremely helpful to me."

Mandela described the move to armed struggle as a last resort; years of increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had not and could not achieve any progress.

In June 1961, Mandela sent a letter to South African newspapers warning the government, that if they did not meet their demands, the Umkhonto we Sizwe would embark on a campaign of sabotage. The letter demanded the government accept a call for a national constitutional convention. The demands were not met by the government and beginning on 16 December 1961, the Umkhonto we Sizwe with Mandela as its leader, launched a bombing campaign against government targets with the first action of the campaign being the bombing of an electricity sub-station. In total, over the next eighteen months, the Umkhonto we Sizwe would initiate dozens more acts of sabotage and bombings. The South African government alleged more acts of sabotage had been carried out and at the Rivonia trial the accused would be charged with 193 acts of sabotage in total. The campaign of sabotage against the government included attacks on government posts, machines, power facilities, and crop burning in various places including Johannesburg, Port Elizabeth and Durban.

Later, mostly in the 1980s, MK, the organisation co-founded by Mandela, waged a guerrilla war against the apartheid government in which many civilians became casualties. For example, the Church Street bomb in Pretoria killed 19 people and injured 217. After he had become President, Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, criticising those in his own party who attempted to remove statements mentioning this from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Until July 2008 Mandela and ANC party members were barred from entering the United States—except to visit the United Nations headquarters in Manhattan—without a special waiver from the US Secretary of State, because of their South African apartheid-era designation as terrorists.

[JustinTime]

In reality....

Well golly, they never told me that in school. U shure dats not racist?

[Zippyjuan]

I guess you won't vote for him for US president, eh? How communist was his government during his rule in South Africa? Actions are more important than claims. Note that the "proves" in the article is in quotation marks. Was he communist or was he seeking support from any group willing to help end the white minority rule in South Africa?


Although Mr Mandela appears to have joined the SACP more for their political connections than their ideas, his membership could have damaged his standing in the West had it been disclosed while he was still fighting to dismantle apartheid.

Africa was a Cold War proxy battleground until the end of the 1980s, and international support for his cause, which included the Free Nelson Mandela campaign in Britain, drew partly on his image as a compromise figure loyal neither to East nor West.

"Nelson Mandela's reputation is based both on his ability to overcome personal animosities and to be magnanimous to all South Africans, white and black, and that is what impressed the world," said Prof Ellis, a former Amnesty International researcher who is based at the Free University of Amsterdam. "But what this shows is that like any politician, he was prepared to make opportunistic alliances.

[PatriotOne]

http://i45.tinypic.com/166g61j.jpg

[PatriotOne]

http://www.rockefellernews.com/22064/happy-birthday-nelson-mandela/

[FrankRep]

http://www.rockefellernews.com/22064/happy-birthday-nelson-mandela/

http://i45.tinypic.com/166g61j.jpg


Doesn't surprise me.


http://images.wikia.com/infowars/images/4/4d/David-rockefeller-memoirs-small.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812969731/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=libert0f-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=0812969731)
Memoirs (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812969731/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=libert0f-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=0812969731)
- David Rockefeller, 2002



For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure -- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.


- David Rockefeller, "Memoirs (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812969731/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=libert0f-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=0812969731)" (page 405)

[daviddee]

...

[idiom]

When you replace a tyranny with a republic are you still a communist?

[daviddee]

/..

[sparebulb]

When you replace a tyranny with a republic are you still a communist?

People's Republic of China

[FrankRep]

When you replace a tyranny with a republic are you still a communist?


http://www.thenewamerican.com/media/k2/items/cache/6dc622ac9a3c205d92d42dfa787bd4ec_XL.jpg (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)



The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.


South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)


The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
04 August 2012


=====


Nelson Mandela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela): Political party - African National Congress

Jacob Zuma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Zuma) is the President of the African National Congress (ANC), the governing political party, and was Deputy President of South Africa from 1999 to 2005.

The African National Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress) (ANC) is South Africa's governing political party, supported by its tripartite alliance with the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) and the South African Communist Party (SACP), since the establishment of non-racial democracy in April 1994.

[AGRP]

Well, ignoring the 100,000,000 people killed because of leftwing ideologies from 1900-2000.... Yes, Zionism seems so much worse with a body count under 20K.

Israel's body count: http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

Communism's killing spree:

http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2005/05/01/the-red-plague/

40,000,000 as the low estimate and 250,000,000 on the high side. I believe 100,000,000 to be a very safe number using simply Stalin, Mao, etc.

Communism never disappears... It is just repackaged to keep up with the times. The mindset is genetic.

I like to live in the present. It just seems idiotic to cry about cold war style communism complete with hammer and sickle when present day genocides are fueled by zionism.

[jmdrake]

Right. And that's why white police commanders in South Africa are having their black officers kill black miners. It's all a plot to kill all the white folks.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/8/21/massacre_in_south_africa_police_defend


http://www.thenewamerican.com/media/k2/items/cache/6dc622ac9a3c205d92d42dfa787bd4ec_XL.jpg (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)



The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.


South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)


The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
04 August 2012


=====


Nelson Mandela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela): Political party - African National Congress

Jacob Zuma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Zuma) is the President of the African National Congress (ANC), the governing political party, and was Deputy President of South Africa from 1999 to 2005.

The African National Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress) (ANC) is South Africa's governing political party, supported by its tripartite alliance with the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) and the South African Communist Party (SACP), since the establishment of non-racial democracy in April 1994.

[LibertyEagle]

I like to live in the present. It just seems idiotic to cry about cold war style communism complete with hammer and sickle when present day genocides are fueled by zionism.

Communism isn't dead, it just changed names. It's now called communitarianism (http://www.newswithviews.com/Raapana/nikiA.htm).

[amy31416]

Maybe white people should have had the morality to know that it's wrong to go into a foreign country and enslave the population to produce riches in the first place. Perhaps then this wouldn't have been such a problem.

Immorality only results in more of the same. That's why I'm against Israel and the US' current bullshit in the ME. Leave people the fuck alone and focus on defense, because there's lots of bad people out there...and even in here.

[LibertyEagle]

Maybe white people should have had the morality to know that it's wrong to go into a foreign country and enslave the population to produce riches in the first place. Perhaps then this wouldn't have been such a problem.

Immorality only results in more of the same. That's why I'm against Israel and the US' current bullshit in the ME. Leave people the fuck alone and focus on defense, because there's lots of bad people out there...and even in here.

Did they "enslave" them, Amy, or did they offer employment?

[amy31416]

Did they "enslave" them, Amy, or did they offer employment?

Both.

I spent a year in SA under apartheid, I know what I'm talking about--it was hell for the black people and it degrades morality. Leave people alone and respect their sovereignty.

[Tpoints]

The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.



Did I get that right? Genocide is worse than communism?

[TER]

The vast majority of us here couldn't fathom the amount of tyranny, prejudice and persecution this man and his countrymen have had to endure. Communistic ideals were those ideals which finally could get them free from the evils of discrimination and the shackles of slavery. We may not agree communism is the best political ideology and certainly not the ideal way to come to freedom and individual liberty, but it can be, it can be a step towards it when what it is leaving is a far more tyrannical ideology. More significantly, it happened to be the only way which finally worked for them, as imperfect as it was.

[Brian4Liberty]

After finding out that Lincoln was a proto-Marxist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?397386-Was-Lincoln-a-Marxist), nothing is shocking anymore.

[The Free Hornet]

A few years back, there was a hot thread here on this forum where several alleged free-market, libertarian-leaning Ron Paul supporters here defended Mandela as being the greatest of all human beings. It was a sad testimonial to the power of public school and university education.

Can you substantiate this and include evidence that the posters were, in fact, "free-market, libertarian"? Yes, I cropped your quote since being a little bit libertarian is like being a little bit pregnant. Don't forget to find the money quotes: "greatest of all human beings".

[Tpoints]

Communism isn't dead, it just changed names. It's now called communitarianism (http://www.newswithviews.com/Raapana/nikiA.htm).

or egalitarianism.

[FrankRep]

Did I get that right? Genocide is worse than communism?
Communist/Socialist countries usually get in the business of Genocide: Mao Ze-Dong, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, etc...

[Tpoints]

Communist/Socialist countries usually get in the business of Genocide: Mao Ze-Dong, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, etc...

That's not my question. Is genocide better or worse than communism? Or does it depend on something?

[FrankRep]

That's not my question. Is genocide better or worse than communism? Or does it depend on something?
That's a trick question. Communist/Socialist countries usually get in the business of Genocide: Mao Ze-Dong, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, etc...

You might want to read the article and stop playing word games.

South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)



The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.

[BlackTerrel]

How is this relevant? Or important?

[sparebulb]

Can you substantiate this and include evidence that the posters were, in fact, "free-market, libertarian"? Yes, I cropped your quote since being a little bit libertarian is like being a little bit pregnant. Don't forget to find the money quotes: "greatest of all human beings".

Thanks for showing up. It's not worth my time to play games with you, but my carefully chosen words have flushed out those that prove my point.

[Tpoints]

That's a trick question. Communist/Socialist countries usually get in the business of Genocide: Mao Ze-Dong, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, etc...

You might want to read the article and stop playing word games.

South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)



The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.

No, it's not a trick question.

Since you say the USUALLY get into the geno biz, what if they don't? Is a country that is commie but no geno better or worse than a country that goes geno but not commie? Or is there something that determines it, do you know?

Why can't you just admit either they are equally bad or you don't know?

[daviddee]

Both.

I spent a year in SA under apartheid, I know what I'm talking about--it was hell for the black people and it degrades morality. Leave people alone and respect their sovereignty.

Posticide.

[daviddee]

...

[LibertyEagle]

That's not my question. Is genocide better or worse than communism? Or does it depend on something?

Idiotic question. They both are horrible.

[idiom]

Genocide is okay when *we* do it.

[purplechoe]

Genocide is okay when *we* do it.

To be more accurate: it's ok for the Republicans when Bush does it, it's ok for the Democrats when Obama does it.

I was on a cruse a few years ago and one of the servers was a black dude from South Africa, I told him that they made a mistake with Mandela because he was a communist and he just gave me a look like he wanted to cut my head off...

[jmdrake]

Did they "enslave" them, Amy, or did they offer employment?

If the Chinese invaded America, destroyed our social order, built factories and offered us "jobs" but undermined any efforts we made to be self sufficient, what would you call that?

[amy31416]

I have many friends who are South Africans who would dispute your comments... especially the use of the word hell.

Sadly, they all left once the odds of being raped went to 1:20, flamethrowers on the cars, and their spouses needed to insert razorblade lined diaphragms.

I believe my last statement is a closer definition to hell.

Of course they would. I have a couple white friends I stayed in touch with as well, and they agree with your friends. Under apartheid, it was hellish for blacks. Without apartheid it's hellish for whites.

Should the white people keep the native blacks as their servants by force? Is that moral? Or is it moral for them to leave them alone and stay off their land?

(Though I do think that your "razorblades in the vagina" thing is a bit of hyperbole.)

[Keith and stuff]

When you replace a tyranny with a republic are you still a communist?

I don't know but not sure how that relates to Mandela.

[Athan]

I've never really had an opinion of Mandela as I still am uninformed of the regional history to this day, after reading this though I definitely a negative view of mandela.

[sparebulb]

.....and their spouses needed to insert razorblade lined diaphragms.

That sounds like the perfect way to increase the chances of getting the AIDS.

[LibertyEagle]

If the Chinese invaded America, destroyed our social order, built factories and offered us "jobs" but undermined any efforts we made to be self sufficient, what would you call that?

What social order was in South Africa?

[jmdrake]

What social order was in South Africa?

Not sure if serious. Research pre colonial South Africa if you are serious.

Edit: Here's a place to start if you're being serious. http://www.sahistory.org.za/early-history/pre-colonial-history-sa

[jmdrake]

I've never really had an opinion of Mandela as I still am uninformed of the regional history to this day, after reading this though I definitely a negative view of mandela.

Nelson Mandela is so evil that when his term ended he became dictator for life and......oh wait a minute, that was just about every other post colonial president in Africa. Nevermind.

[pcosmar]

And how is this in the least bit relevant?

OOOh,, the Red Scare.. (where in a bunch of Socialists (or fascists) point fingers at "communists")

I am no more in favor of Communism than I am Socialism. I see very little difference in practice.
And the Sad Fact is,, the US has been a socialist country for 100 years,, along with the rest of the world.

Another reality is that there has never been a communist country,, and there never will be.
It is contrary to human nature and will never exist outside of philosophical writings.

So again,, how is this relevant?

[Brian4Liberty]

Another reality is that there has never been a communist country,, and there never will be.
It is contrary to human nature and will never exist outside of philosophical writings.


On the small scale, it has worked for short periods of time in kibbutzim, communes and cults. Of course those experiments all fail over time. But there's a sucker born every minute...

[LibertyEagle]

And how is this in the least bit relevant?

OOOh,, the Red Scare.. (where in a bunch of Socialists (or fascists) point fingers at "communists")

I am no more in favor of Communism than I am Socialism. I see very little difference in practice.
And the Sad Fact is,, the US has been a socialist country for 100 years,, along with the rest of the world.

Another reality is that there has never been a communist country,, and there never will be.
It is contrary to human nature and will never exist outside of philosophical writings.

So again,, how is this relevant?

So, when you were growing up, you saw absolutely no difference between the U.S. and the USSR or Red China? Seriously?

[LibertyEagle]

I read it Drake and I am open to reading more. I certainly am no expert on the subject. Maybe it will cause me to change my current opinion on the subject. Because I haven't been so adamantly against some of the colonialists. That is, if they brought development, sanitization, electricity, food and jobs to areas of undeveloped countries that had none and if the people could choose whether to work for them or not.

[Zippyjuan]

So no list of Communist laws passed by the South African government while Mandela was the head?

[jmdrake]

So no list of Communist laws passed by the South African government while Mandela was the head?

^Thread winner.

[amy31416]

I read it Drake and I am open to reading more. I certainly am no expert on the subject. Maybe it will cause me to change my current opinion on the subject. Because I haven't been so adamantly against some of the colonialists. That is, if they brought development, sanitization, electricity, food and jobs to areas of undeveloped countries that had none and if the people could choose whether to work for them or not.

They wouldn't have had to use force and oppression if they showed up on the shores and offered them something good or desired. It's also social engineering to the nth degree--and we all know how well that usually turns out.

[jmdrake]

I read it Drake and I am open to reading more. I certainly am no expert on the subject. Maybe it will cause me to change my current opinion on the subject. Because I haven't been so adamantly against some of the colonialists. That is, if they brought development, sanitization, electricity, food and jobs to areas of undeveloped countries that had none and if the people could choose whether to work for them or not.

Fair enough. Tell me this. Do you think that we can bring in enough development, sanitation, electricity, food and jobs to say, Afghanistan, to get them to accept us? Remember, colonization always follows conquest. Hey, I think the Afrikaaners who have been their for generations have a right to stay and the current government has a responsibility to protect them. (And it's interesting that nobody has commented on my link showing black policemen commanded by white officers killing black miners. If the current government aims to kill all white people, that's a poor way to do it.) I do understand, though, why the black population wanted to see the apartheid system ended. And, so far, the end of white rule in South Africa has turned out better than what happened in many (if not most) post colonial African countries. That said, the current government seems to leave a lot to be desired. (Killing of black miners is evidence).

[BlackTerrel]

[QUOTE=Zippyjuan;4770921]So no list of Communist laws passed by the South African government while Mandela was the head?[/QUOTE

.....

[FrankRep]

So no list of Communist laws passed by the South African government while Mandela was the head?

Here's a quick list for ya.


The list shows the typical things Communists love to push: Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities


Wikipedia: Nelson_Mandela - Presidency_of_South_Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Presidency_of_South_Africa)



During the course of his presidency, a wide range of progressive social reforms were enacted by Mandela's government, aimed at reducing long entrenched social and economic inequalities in South Africa.


1.) Free health care was introduced in 1994 for all children under the age of six together with pregnant and breastfeeding women making use of public sector health facilities (Big government)

2.) Reconstruction and Development Programme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_and_Development_Programme) (RDP) is a South African socio-economic policy framework implemented by the African National Congress (ANC) government of Nelson Mandela in 1994 after months of discussions, consultations and negotiations between the ANC, its Alliance partners the Congress of South African Trade Unions and the South African Communist Party, and "mass organisations in the wider civil society". (Big Government)

3.) Skills Development Act of 1998 provided for the establishment of mechanisms to finance and promote skills development at the workplace. (Big Government)

3.) The Labour Relations Act of 1995, which promoted workplace democracy, orderly collective bargaining, and the effective resolution of labour disputes. (Big Government)

4.) Employment Equity Act of 1998 was passed to put an end to unfair discrimination and ensure the implementation of affirmative action in the workplace. (Big Government)

5.) Compulsory schooling was introduced for African children between six and fourteen years, while free meals were provided for between 3.5 to 5 million school children. (Big Government)

6.) National Development Agency was established in 1998, and was mandated to provide funds to civil society organizations to meet the developmental needs of poor communities. (Big Government)

[jmdrake]

Hey, if they keep it up South Africa will become as communist as the U.S.A! :rolleyes:


Here's a quick list for ya.


The list shows the typical things Communists love to push: Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities


Wikipedia: Nelson_Mandela - Presidency_of_South_Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Presidency_of_South_Africa)



During the course of his presidency, a wide range of progressive social reforms were enacted by Mandela's government, aimed at reducing long entrenched social and economic inequalities in South Africa.


1.) Free health care was introduced in 1994 for all children under the age of six together with pregnant and breastfeeding women making use of public sector health facilities (Big government)

2.) Reconstruction and Development Programme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_and_Development_Programme) (RDP) is a South African socio-economic policy framework implemented by the African National Congress (ANC) government of Nelson Mandela in 1994 after months of discussions, consultations and negotiations between the ANC, its Alliance partners the Congress of South African Trade Unions and the South African Communist Party, and "mass organisations in the wider civil society". (Big Government)

3.) Skills Development Act of 1998 provided for the establishment of mechanisms to finance and promote skills development at the workplace. (Big Government)

3.) The Labour Relations Act of 1995, which promoted workplace democracy, orderly collective bargaining, and the effective resolution of labour disputes. (Big Government)

4.) Employment Equity Act of 1998 was passed to put an end to unfair discrimination and ensure the implementation of affirmative action in the workplace. (Big Government)

5.) Compulsory schooling was introduced for African children between six and fourteen years, while free meals were provided for between 3.5 to 5 million school children. (Big Government)

6.) National Development Agency was established in 1998, and was mandated to provide funds to civil society organizations to meet the developmental needs of poor communities. (Big Government)

[LibertyEagle]

Hey, if they keep it up South Africa will become as communist as the U.S.A! :rolleyes:

When we have someone like Winnie running around necklacing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing)anyone and everyone who doesn't want Communism, I'll agree with you.

[FrankRep]

Hey, if they keep it up South Africa will become as communist as the U.S.A! :rolleyes:

Lets look at the score:


Is America Embracing the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto? (http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/commentary/item/11092-is-america-embracing-the-10-tenets-of-the-communist-manifesto)



Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels established a government paradigm that transformed Europe, and their political ideology has seized upon U.S. society.

[jmdrake]

When we have someone like Winnie running around necklacing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing)anyone and everyone who doesn't want Communism, I'll agree with you.

Look up the Clinton/Bush bodycounts and get back with me.

[Zippyjuan]

Opression by the white minority was OK but a black leader trying to change that is a commie and should be hated. The "Red Menace" is over.

4.) Employment Equity Act of 1998 was passed to put an end to unfair discrimination and ensure the implementation of affirmative action in the workplace. (Big Government)
Ending discrimination is bad?

Even Israel treats the Palstinians better than the native blacks of South Africa were treated in their own country. And that should change too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgcTvoWjZJU

[LibertyEagle]

Look up the Clinton/Bush bodycounts and get back with me.

I already know about them.

[jmdrake]

I already know about them.

Good. So then you should be ready to agree with me. ;)

[LibertyEagle]

Good. So then you should be ready to agree with me. ;)

Hardly. Bush and Clinton weren't killing people off because they didn't want Communism.

[FrankRep]

When we have someone like Winnie running around necklacing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing)anyone and everyone who doesn't want Communism, I'll agree with you.


Can Winnie Mandela's heroism outshine her crimes? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8474580.stm)

BBC News
25 January 2010



By 1985, she had had enough. As unrest gripped the townships, Winnie openly defied the regime and moved back to Soweto.

Increasingly, her rhetoric played to the mob, as when she made her most infamous speech in Munsieville, saying: "With our necklaces we shall liberate this country."


Wikipedia: Necklacing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing)



Necklacing is the practice of summary execution and torture carried out by forcing a rubber tyre, filled with petrol, around a victim's chest and arms, and setting it on fire. The victim may take up to 20 minutes to die, suffering severe burns in the process.

[jmdrake]

Hardly. Bush and Clinton weren't killing people off because they didn't want Communism.

Right. They were killing off people because they wanted communism. (Or big government fascism. Same diff). So....what's your point again?

[Original_Intent]

I like to live in the present. It just seems idiotic to cry about cold war style communism complete with hammer and sickle when present day genocides are fueled by zionism.

Those who fail to learn from history....

[idiom]

Mandatory schooling to age 14 is communism now?

Where are is the nationalisation of key industries? Nationalisation of farms? Price controls? General execution of the upper classes by state forces?

Mandela is incredibly notable for his *lack* of retributive policy, let alone redistributive.

Its like calling OWS communists. calling A bunch of students hanging out for a bit having fun 'communists' is an insult to real communists.

[FrankRep]

Hardly. Bush and Clinton weren't killing people off because they didn't want Communism.

Right. They were killing off people because they wanted communism. (Or big government fascism. Same diff). So....what's your point again?

Actually, Bill Clinton was giving Communist China advanced weapon technology. That's the real reason he was being impeached before the Monica Lewinsky detraction.


Bill Clinton Impeachment: What is ChinaGate? Bribery and Treason in the White House (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMu0K_q9fLY)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMu0K_q9fLY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMu0K_q9fLY

[jmdrake]

Mandatory schooling to age 14 is communism now?

+rep. Using that scale the U.S. is more "communist" than South Africa.

[FrankRep]

+rep. Using that scale the U.S. is more "communist" than South Africa.

Both... are Communist perhaps? The United States is still in self-denial.

[jmdrake]

Actually, Bill Clinton was giving Communist China advanced weapon technology. That's the real reason he was being impeached before the Monica Lewinsky detraction.


No disagreement from me. Actually I agree with Ron Paul that the best reason to impeach Bill Clinton was for his bombing of Iraq.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQCrIbTmitk

[idiom]

Winnie Mandela has this to say of her ex-husband:


Yesterday she said: 'This name Mandela is an albatross around the necks of my family.
'You all must realise that Mandela was not the only man who suffered. There were many others, hundreds who languished in prison and died.
'Mandela did go to prison and he went in there as a young revolutionary but look what came out.
'Mandela let us down. He agreed to a bad deal for the blacks. Economically we are still on the outside. The economy is very much "white".
'I cannot forgive him for going to receive the Nobel with his jailer de Klerk. Hand in hand they went. Do you think de Klerk released him from the goodness of his heart?

She is still communist, but racially so. She wants a black economy with all the nationalisation of white farms that Zimbabwe saw.

Nelson tried to lead the nation to genuine reconciliation and away from the horrors of extreme economics.

[jmdrake]

Winnie Mandela has this to say of her ex-husband:



She is still communist, but racially so. She wants a black economy with all the nationalisation of white farms that Zimbabwe saw.

Nelson tried to lead the nation to genuine reconciliation and away from the horrors of extreme economics.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to idiom again.

[FreeHampshire]

Opression by the white minority was OK but a black leader trying to change that is a commie and should be hated. The "Red Menace" is over.

Keep mocking anyone worried about communism. But we do know you on the Left are more than happy to find racists, klansmen, and nazis where they don't exist. At least the Communist ties with respected individuals are substantial and clear as day.

[LibertyEagle]

Mandatory schooling to age 14 is communism now?

Where are is the nationalisation of key industries? Nationalisation of farms? Price controls? General execution of the upper classes by state forces?

Mandela is incredibly notable for his *lack* of retributive policy, let alone redistributive.

Its like calling OWS communists. calling A bunch of students hanging out for a bit having fun 'communists' is an insult to real communists.

My understanding at the time was that Mandela had Winnie and her henchmen to do the dirty work. So, he could keep an arm's length away from it.

[FrankRep]

Winnie Mandela has this to say of her ex-husband:



Yesterday she said: 'This name Mandela is an albatross around the necks of my family.
'You all must realise that Mandela was not the only man who suffered. There were many others, hundreds who languished in prison and died.
'Mandela did go to prison and he went in there as a young revolutionary but look what came out.
'Mandela let us down. He agreed to a bad deal for the blacks. Economically we are still on the outside. The economy is very much "white".
'I cannot forgive him for going to receive the Nobel with his jailer de Klerk. Hand in hand they went. Do you think de Klerk released him from the goodness of his heart?


She is still communist, but racially so. She wants a black economy with all the nationalisation of white farms that Zimbabwe saw.

Nelson tried to lead the nation to genuine reconciliation and away from the horrors of extreme economics.

Nelson Mandela supported all these things:



Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?398005-Nelson-Mandela-Proven-To-Be-Communist-Party-Member-After-Decades-of-Denial&p=4771706&viewfull=1#post4771706)


I would consider those items above to be pretty "extreme economics."

I'm not gonna call Nelson Mandela an awesome person just because he finally decided after many years that killing and torturing your enemies may not be the best approach.

[idiom]

Nelson Mandela supported all these things:



Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?398005-Nelson-Mandela-Proven-To-Be-Communist-Party-Member-After-Decades-of-Denial&p=4771706&viewfull=1#post4771706)


I would consider those items above to be pretty "extreme economics."

I'm not gonna call Nelson Mandela an awesome person just because he finally decided after many years that killing and torturing your enemies may not be the best approach.

New Zealand has all of those things and ranks in the top 10 least restricted economies. Which I guess makes it a communist utopia.

In fact its hard to find a first world country that doesn't have those things. Mirroring every first world country is hardly extreme economic policy.

You are having to claim that communism is working very well in multiple countries around the world in order to attack Mandela. It is irrational hatred.

The total lack of cause for attacking Nelson Mandela, the desperate need to shred any respect given to him starts to reek of ulterior biases.

Explain again how many people he tortured and killed while in power when he would have had the total backing of the populace to do so?

[FrankRep]

New Zealand has all of those things and ranks in the top 10 least restricted economies. Which I guess makes it a communist utopia.

God Save The Queen!


Wikipedia: New Zealand -- Politics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Politics)

http://prediction17.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/ratu_elizabeth_ii.jpg?w=450&h=337



Queen Elizabeth II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II) is the Queen of New Zealand and the head of state. The Queen is represented by the Governor-General, whom she appoints on the advice of the Prime Minister. The Governor-General can exercise the Crown's prerogative powers (such as reviewing cases of injustice and making appointments of Cabinet ministers, ambassadors and other key public officials) and in rare situations, the reserve powers (the power to dismiss a Prime Minister, dissolve Parliament or refuse the Royal Assent of a bill into law). The powers of the Queen and the Governor-General are limited by constitutional constraints and they cannot normally be exercised without the advice of Cabinet.

[Tpoints]

God Save The Queen!


Wikipedia: New Zealand -- Politics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Politics)

http://prediction17.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/ratu_elizabeth_ii.jpg?w=450&h=337



Queen Elizabeth II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II) is the Queen of New Zealand and the head of state. The Queen is represented by the Governor-General, whom she appoints on the advice of the Prime Minister. The Governor-General can exercise the Crown's prerogative powers (such as reviewing cases of injustice and making appointments of Cabinet ministers, ambassadors and other key public officials) and in rare situations, the reserve powers (the power to dismiss a Prime Minister, dissolve Parliament or refuse the Royal Assent of a bill into law). The powers of the Queen and the Governor-General are limited by constitutional constraints and they cannot normally be exercised without the advice of Cabinet.

I didn't get your point.

[FrankRep]

I didn't get your point.

New Zealand is a Monarchy, ruled by the Queen of England. I'm just saying that Idiom is comparing apples to oranges. New Zealand is not a sovereign country.

[Tpoints]

New Zealand is a Monarchy, ruled by the Queen of England. I'm just saying that Idiom is comparing apples to oranges. New Zealand is not a sovereign country.

Do you need to be a sovereign country to have Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities..? or communism?

[FrankRep]

Do you need to be a sovereign country to have Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities..? or communism?

I said Communists/Socialists support those Big Government ideas. When you talk about Monarchies, you talking about a Dictatorship ruled by however the King/Queen wants to rule their lands.

This thread is about Nelson Mandela and his connection to Communism.

[idiom]

You were saying that the Queens 'policies' (because she rules and micromanages with an iron fist) are communist.

Mandela's actual record is at worst very mild socialism.

For someone bringing the country out of apartheid he actually massively lowered the amount of class and race warfare going on.

Classically communists would increase class warfare.

But now you are arguing that dictators can't be communists.

Communists don't actually support much of those. Several of those can only exist in capitalist systems.

[idiom]

This is why he and Ron Paul are comparable:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd-dBnWBrj0

The integrity and courage to lead by example in spite of intense political pressure to sell out.

[Zippyjuan]

New Zealand is a Monarchy, ruled by the Queen of England. I'm just saying that Idiom is comparing apples to oranges. New Zealand is not a sovereign country.

The Queen is a figurehead- she is not the true ruler in that she decrees laws and makes decisions as to how the country is run or what the government does. The members of the Commonwealth are not really monarchies.

Let's read the rest of that entry at Wiki:

The powers of the Queen and the Governor-General are limited by constitutional constraints and they cannot normally be exercised without the advice of Cabinet.[62][63]


The Parliament of New Zealand holds legislative power and consists of the Sovereign (represented by the Governor-General) and the House of Representatives.[63] It also included an upper house, the Legislative Council, until this was abolished in 1950.[63] The supremacy of the House over the Sovereign was established in England by the Bill of Rights 1689 and has been ratified as law in New Zealand.[63] The House of Representatives is democratically elected and a Government is formed from the party or coalition with the majority of seats.[63] If no majority is formed a minority government can be formed if support from other parties during confidence and supply votes is assured. The Governor-General appoints ministers under advice from the Prime Minister, who is by convention the Parliamentary leader of the governing party or coalition.[64] Cabinet, formed by ministers and led by the Prime Minister, is the highest policy-making body in government and responsible for deciding significant government actions.[65] By convention, members of cabinet are bound by collective responsibility to decisions made by cabinet.[66]

Judges and judicial officers are appointed non-politically and under strict rules regarding tenure to help maintain constitutional independence from the government.[57] This theoretically allows the judiciary to interpret the law based solely on the legislation enacted by Parliament without other influences on their decisions.[67] The Privy Council in London was the country's final court of appeal until 2004, when it was replaced with the newly established Supreme Court of New Zealand. The judiciary, headed by the Chief Justice,[68] includes the Court of Appeal, the High Court, and subordinate courts.[57]

Almost all parliamentary general elections between 1853 and 1996 were held under the first past the post voting system.[69] The elections since 1930 have been dominated by two political parties, National and Labour.[69] Since 1996, a form of proportional representation called Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) has been used.[57] Under the MMP system each person has two votes; one is for the seventy electoral seats (including seven reserved for Māori),[70] and the other is for a party. The remaining fifty seats are assigned so that representation in parliament reflects the party vote, although a party has to win one electoral seat or 5 percent of the total party vote before it is eligible for these seats.[71] Between March 2005 and August 2006 New Zealand became the only country in the world in which all the highest offices in the land (Head of State, Governor-General, Prime Minister, Speaker and Chief Justice) were occupied simultaneously by women.[72]

New Zealand is identified as one of the world's most stable and well-governed nations.[73] As of 2011, the country was ranked 5th in the strength of its democratic institutions[74] and 1st in government transparency and lack of corruption.[75] New Zealand has a high level of civic participation, with 79% voter turnout during the most recent elections, compared to an OECD average of 72%. Furthermore, 67% of New Zealanders say they trust their political institutions, far higher than the OECD average of 56%

[Tpoints]

I said Communists/Socialists support those Big Government ideas. When you talk about Monarchies, you talking about a Dictatorship ruled by however the King/Queen wants to rule their lands.

This thread is about Nelson Mandela and his connection to Communism.

In the case of NZ, regardless of whether it is ruled by a monarch or by a communist sovereign regime, do they have those "big government ideas" in the works?

[FrankRep]

You were saying that the Queens 'policies' (because she rules and micromanages with an iron fist) are communist.

I called a Monarchy a dictatorship.


Mandela's actual record is at worst very mild socialism.

Nelson Mandela is a member of the Communist Party and put in place Socialist policies. As a supporter of Ron Paul, I would hope that you're against all those government policies.



For someone bringing the country out of apartheid he actually massively lowered the amount of class and race warfare going on.

That is false.

Genocide and Communism Threaten South Africa (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/13280-genocide-communism-threaten-south-africa)


24 October 2012 - South Africa is in a death spiral, as its elected communist leaders incite genocide and uprisings to bring about total control.

South African Tells of Genocide in Communist-dominated South Africa (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/13121-south-african-tells-of-genocide-in-communist-dominated-south-africa)


06 October 2012 - Sonia Hruska spoke Oct. 2 at the Fox Valley Conservative Forum in Appleton, Wisconsin on genocide against whites in communist-dominated South Africa.

South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)


04 August 2012 - The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.



Classically communists would increase class warfare.

See the articles above.


But now you are arguing that dictators can't be communists.

I'm saying the Queen of England is not a Communist.


Communists don't actually support much of those. Several of those can only exist in capitalist systems.

Read the Communist Manifesto (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1453704426/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1453704426&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20) please.

[FrankRep]

In the case of NZ, regardless of whether it is ruled by a monarch or by a communist sovereign regime, do they have those "big government ideas" in the works?

As a Ron Paul supporter, I reject Monarchy and Communism.

[Tpoints]

As a Ron Paul supporter, I reject Monarchy and Communism.

Dude, that wasn't my question. I never asked you to like Monarchy or any form of government. I was asking you if you acknowledge that NZ has the big government ideas in the works, and working, as idiom said.

[FrankRep]

Dude, that wasn't my question. I never asked you to like Monarchy or any form of government. I was asking you if you acknowledge that NZ has the big government ideas in the works, and working, as idiom said.

Well, what kind of Big Government policies are in place in New Zealand? Please cite explicit policies.

There's nothing to "acknowledge" because no policies have been listed.

[Tpoints]

Well, what kind of Big Government policies are in place in New Zealand? Please cite explicit policies.

There's nothing to "acknowledge" because no policies have been listed.

These things.

"Nelson Mandela supported all these things:
Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities

New Zealand has all of those things and ranks in the top 10 least restricted economies. Which I guess makes it a communist utopia. "

See? I know how to copy and paste too.

[FrankRep]

These things.

Again, Please cite explicit policies.

[Tpoints]

Again, Please cite explicit policies.

Idiom, can you post them for us? Thanks.

[idiom]

Genocide and Communism Threaten South Africa (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/13280-genocide-communism-threaten-south-africa)


24 October 2012 - South Africa is in a death spiral, as its elected communist leaders incite genocide and uprisings to bring about total control.

South African Tells of Genocide in Communist-dominated South Africa (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/13121-south-african-tells-of-genocide-in-communist-dominated-south-africa)


06 October 2012 - Sonia Hruska spoke Oct. 2 at the Fox Valley Conservative Forum in Appleton, Wisconsin on genocide against whites in communist-dominated South Africa.

South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover (http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/12326-south-africa-facing-white-genocide-total-communist-takeover)


04 August 2012 - The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.


You basically just proved my point. With Nelson Mandela out of the picture the racial tensions and communist factions are taking over. These are the sorts of thing everyone predicted would happen immediately. Mandela held them at bay and created a very real possible peaceful integration after a peaceful transition. This is why he is held in esteem.

The leaders following him were not nearly as far sighted.

You might try finding things Mandela did and attacking him with his own actions.

[idiom]

Read the Communist Manifesto (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1453704426/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1453704426&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20) please.


Nevertheless in the most advanced countries the following will be pretty generally applicable:
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc., etc.

These are the short term goals. Of these only #10 is similar to any of the policy prescriptions you claim Mandela implemented, and that is because in 1847 universal education was a pretty radical concept. I don't know of any libertarians advocating that children should not be educated.

In 1991 mandatory education for children to the age of 14 is hardly a policy worthy of denouncing someone.

I am trying to think of first world countries where you can take children and put them to work before their teenage years instead of educating them. I don't think anyone but a sub-section of an-caps think that is ideal. Also you need to separate out mandatory schooling from mandatory public schooling.

I imagine you have a specific source showing where Mandela abolished private schooling while in power? No?

[idiom]

Well, what kind of Big Government policies are in place in New Zealand? Please cite explicit policies.

There's nothing to "acknowledge" because no policies have been listed.

They are pretty small government versions, but nearly all of them are functioning throughout the first world. I really don't see how this point is in dispute.

New Zealand allows unions to exist.
New Zealand funds public and private education to the age of 18.
New Zealand has private and public healthcare systems.
New Zealand has an unemployment benefit and a dependent persons benefit.
New Zealand has no import or export tariffs.
New Zealand has a nearly completely unregulated radio spectrum.
New Zealand has no price controls.
New Zealand has an aggressively deregulated utility market.
New Zealand has almost no standing army.
New Zealand has a very simple tax system with no capital gains taxes.
New Zealand has no inheritance tax.
New Zealand has no payroll tax.
New Zealand has no healthcare tax.
New Zealand has no social security tax and no mandatory retirement payments.
New Zealand has no agricultural subsidies or controls, despite this being a major economic sector.
New Zealand markets largely function on healthy voluntary self-regulating mechanisms.

Apparently this makes it communist. As it is all holding up, then apparently communism works just fine.

By the definitions you are using there are no non-communist governments in the world.


New Zealand’s entrepreneurial environment is the most efficient and competitive among the economies graded in the Index. Start-up companies enjoy great flexibility under licensing and other regulatory frameworks. With no minimum capital required for launching a company, it can take only one day to start a business. Flexible labour regulations facilitate a dynamic labour market… and monetary stability is well maintained.

Yeah central planning and government control are kind of hard to come by, but Mandela's policies as implemented were to the right of New Zealand.

There are sports and arts subsides however... maybe that is what makes New Zealand so tyrannical...?

[FrankRep]

There are sports and arts subsides however... maybe that is what makes New Zealand so tyrannical...?

I've only said that New Zealand is ruled by the Queen of England. (Will the next King be a tyrant?)

I didn't call New Zealand Communist, I called it a Monarchy ruled by the Queen of England.

I just just said "read the Communist Manifesto," and Nelson Mandela actually IS a Communist.


It almost sounds like you support a Monarchy as a Government Form. Should the United States allow the Queen of England to rule?

[angelatc]

Did they "enslave" them, Amy, or did they offer employment?

Both. Black people couldn't own land or vote. I'm no fan of Mandela's wealth redistribution schemes, but I'm not an apartheid denier.

[angelatc]

You basically just proved my point. With Nelson Mandela out of the picture the racial tensions and communist factions are taking over. These are the sorts of thing everyone predicted would happen immediately. Mandela held them at bay and created a very real possible peaceful integration after a peaceful transition. This is why he is held in esteem.

The leaders following him were not nearly as far sighted.

You might try finding things Mandela did and attacking him with his own actions.

It wasn't peaceful. One of my friends has family there. They are white, and they lived in a house surrounded by a 10 foot concrete wall to keep the roaming gangs of armed thugs out. But armed thugs can scale walls, apparently.

This was 5-10 years ago - long after Mandela was freed and started taking property away from white people and giving it to black people.

[Zippyjuan]

Mandela retired from being leader of South Africa in 1999 which would have been 13 years ago.

http://www.lalr.org.za/news/land-reform-in-post-apartheid-south-africa-2013-a-disappointing-harvest-by-ben-cousins

In 1994 the new democratic government set itself some very ambitious targets for land reform. Restitution clams would be resolved and implemented within 10 years. Redistribution of 30% of white-owned agricultural land would be achieved within 5 years.



These targets were clearly unrealistic. Progress was very slow to begin with, and by the end of the Mandela era very little land had been restored or redistributed.