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Anti Federalist
12-05-2012, 11:40 PM
http://cdn.ph.upi.com/sv/i/UPI-3721354631250/2012/1/13546350616352/NY-Post-publishes-morbid-cover-photo-of-subway-killing.jpg

Where is the photographer?

Is there not one single person on that platform that could have helped?

FTW...

angelatc
12-05-2012, 11:49 PM
Yeah, I just saw that a few minutes ago. The report I read said the guy was there for a minute, maybe 90 seconds. And nobody helped him.

New York liberals probably figured the government would come help.

AGRP
12-05-2012, 11:51 PM
Where are the safety devices? Oh. Public anything is immune to accountability.

James Madison
12-05-2012, 11:51 PM
Yeah, I just saw that a few minutes ago. The report I read said the guy was there for a minute, maybe 90 seconds. And nobody helped him.

New York liberals probably figured the government would come help.

Either that or they were simply too busy to care about someone else.

presence
12-05-2012, 11:53 PM
I thought that was security footage.

angelatc
12-05-2012, 11:55 PM
I thought that was security footage.

No, it was a photographer. He said he was trying to warn the conductor by using the camera's flash. Nobody seems to believe him.

The Goat
12-05-2012, 11:57 PM
guy that took the pic was on TV all yesterday morning. There is video of an argument with the guy that pushes him on the tracks too.

The Goat
12-05-2012, 11:58 PM
No, it was a photographer. He said he was trying to warn the conductor by using the camera's flash. Nobody seems to believe him.

looks like he got paid.

presence
12-06-2012, 12:01 AM
No, it was a photographer.
No shit. That's a new spin.



He said he was trying to warn the conductor by using the camera's flash. Nobody seems to believe him.
= conscience fucking with him, denial good, cognitive dissonance bad.





Sorry bud, I gotta break it to ya, you went national geographic when you should've went national hero. Dude's dead; now its doubtless you're havin' trouble sleepin.

Odin
12-06-2012, 12:04 AM
No, it was a photographer. He said he was trying to warn the conductor by using the camera's flash. Nobody seems to believe him.

Duh no one believes him. The guy killed is in the center of the photograph and the flash from the camera is clearly hitting the platform right where the guy is.

Apparently he was on the tracks for 22 seconds and unable to get out and no one helped him. Absolutely disgraceful imo.

Also I would like to know who was counting the time before he was hit, unless of course it is evidence from a camera in the subway platform or something like that.

nano1895
12-06-2012, 12:07 AM
Mob psychology. Everyone automatically thinks someone else is going to do something and automatically defers authority. If there was just the photographer and the man needing help it would've ended differently.

Odin
12-06-2012, 12:27 AM
Mob psychology. Everyone automatically thinks someone else is going to do something and automatically defers authority. If there was just the photographer and the man needing help it would've ended differently.

I understand that if someone drops their folder or something and all the papers come flying out and you figure someone else will help them with it. But if a guy is clearly struggling to get out of the tracks and back onto the platform, then it is inexcusable to think 'someone else will help him.' The stakes in that case are too high to defer authority.

If there were no train coming, someone would have probably just gone over and pulled him out.

Nirvikalpa
12-06-2012, 12:48 AM
*sigh* That cover really bothers me and when I saw it for the first time I nearly vomited.

It's an extremely emotional photo, though. That's literally seconds before he was struck. The distance the train was, it was probably 3 or 4 seconds away from striking him. Do you wonder what that man was thinking, what his last thoughts were? Do you think he knew he was going to die? I wonder what the conductor was thinking that very instance.

All those thoughts aside... I think it's wrong to assume anyone would act any different if they were there. This is truly something you can never prepare for or know how you would react until it actually happens... and you just have to hold onto hope you would act differently. But I have seen people who have sworn they have seen it all stop dead in their tracks in certain situations because of shock, disbelief, and just not knowing what to do. It's amazing how in a sheer second of panic, common-sense can go out of the window - it's especially tragic when that sheer second of panic costs someone their life.

bolil
12-06-2012, 01:42 AM
train control.

alucard13mmfmj
12-06-2012, 02:53 AM
He licensed that photo... lol. That does not help the man's reputation at all. Most people seem to take the side against the photographer. If people were afraid of getting pulled in with the guy, they couldve used a belt or a jacket to pull him up

Anyways, I think it is racially motivated! Duh!! Black on Asian crime! Where are the media hell storm? Where is Al Sharpton and calls for race riots?!

Demigod
12-06-2012, 03:21 AM
Yeah, I just saw that a few minutes ago. The report I read said the guy was there for a minute, maybe 90 seconds. And nobody helped him.

New York liberals probably figured the government would come help.

I thought it was a few seconds at most,but almost a minute WTF.

He should have ran in opposite direction if he could not clime,but in that kind a situation your legs become cement blocks.

John F Kennedy III
12-06-2012, 03:23 AM
Yeah, I just saw that a few minutes ago. The report I read said the guy was there for a minute, maybe 90 seconds. And nobody helped him.

New York liberals probably figured the government would come help.

Obama phones were ringing off the hooks.

John F Kennedy III
12-06-2012, 03:27 AM
*sigh* That cover really bothers me and when I saw it for the first time I nearly vomited.

It's an extremely emotional photo, though. That's literally seconds before he was struck. The distance the train was, it was probably 3 or 4 seconds away from striking him. Do you wonder what that man was thinking, what his last thoughts were? Do you think he knew he was going to die? I wonder what the conductor was thinking that very instance.

All those thoughts aside... I think it's wrong to assume anyone would act any different if they were there. This is truly something you can never prepare for or know how you would react until it actually happens... and you just have to hold onto hope you would act differently. But I have seen people who have sworn they have seen it all stop dead in their tracks in certain situations because of shock, disbelief, and just not knowing what to do. It's amazing how in a sheer second of panic, common-sense can go out of the window - it's especially tragic when that sheer second of panic costs someone their life.

It's amazing how 1-2 seconds can feel like minutes. Everything moving in slow motion. I think it may be some base ancient human survival instinct.

John F Kennedy III
12-06-2012, 03:31 AM
You'd think they'd put guard rails up. If I ever had to use a subway, I'd be 50 feet away until the train pulled up.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-06-2012, 08:24 AM
Mob psychology. Everyone automatically thinks someone else is going to do something and automatically defers authority. If there was just the photographer and the man needing help it would've ended differently.


Yeah, that definitely happens. In this situation, I think the only thing you could do is turn to someone else, make it clear you are talking to THEM, and say "Let's go pull that guy out." If it was really only 22 seconds, I'm not sure there was time for that.




All those thoughts aside... I think it's wrong to assume anyone would act any different if they were there. This is truly something you can never prepare for or know how you would react until it actually happens... and you just have to hold onto hope you would act differently.


I think people can do a much better job of preparing for these things than they do. If you think in advance about how you'll behave in certain situations, you're a lot better off. I know you do such things as a professional... so things are what they are by the time you arrive on scene. But for someone like me, if I had to give someone CPR in a crowded place like a fair, the way to overcome what nano1895 mentioned is by pointing out specific people, and giving them orders that amount to responsibilities. "YOU (pointing at someone specific) - CALL 911!!"

So I think people can prepare for a number of situations if they commit thought to them before they happen. Not everything, of course, and maybe they won't even be able to carry out their pre-game plans, but having some idea of how to handle certain theoretical situations ahead of time must certainly improve peoples' chances.



It's amazing how 1-2 seconds can feel like minutes. Everything moving in slow motion. I think it may be some base ancient human survival instinct.


I'm certain it is. It gives people time to think and react to things that are otherwise happening too fast for them to do so in a normal mental state.

presence
12-06-2012, 08:42 AM
All those thoughts aside... I think it's wrong to assume anyone would act any different if they were there. This is truly something you can never prepare for or know how you would react until it actually happens.

I for one am not going to sit there and fiddle with taking photos with my "smart phone" because I don't own one.

http://www.presentermedia.com/files/animsp/00007000/7820/walking_while_texting_md_wm.gif



I think people can do a much better job of preparing for these things than they do. If you think in advance about how you'll behave in certain situations, you're a lot better off. I know you do such things as a professional... so things are what they are by the time you arrive on scene. But for someone like me, if I had to give someone CPR in a crowded place like a fair, the way to overcome what nano1895 mentioned is by pointing out specific people, and giving them orders that amount to responsibilities. "YOU (pointing at someone specific) - CALL 911!!"

+rep

I was stuck with a man in the midst of a heart attack one time when an idiot EMT told me to "hang out for a second while I go call 911".

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-06-2012, 08:56 AM
It's amazing how 1-2 seconds can feel like minutes. Everything moving in slow motion. I think it may be some base ancient human survival instinct.


Oh, and there have been scientific experiments regarding this phenomenon. I can't remember the exact details, but I know of at least one where they had numbers flashing on a wristband. (and the numbers would flash for certain fractions of a second.) When they dropped people from heights (from a platform of some type), they were able to read the numbers better. The point they were trying to make is that the stress of falling caused people to perceive time differently, allowing them to read the flashing numbers. When they were not under stress (not falling), the numbers flashed too fast for them to perceive.

osan
12-06-2012, 08:58 AM
http://cdn.ph.upi.com/sv/i/UPI-3721354631250/2012/1/13546350616352/NY-Post-publishes-morbid-cover-photo-of-subway-killing.jpg

Where is the photographer?

Is there not one single person on that platform that could have helped?

FTW...

As a native of NYC I find this unsurprising, if disgusting. I'd like to have 30 seconds in a locked room with that photographer. Of course, that is about 20 seconds more than I would need, but the cushion would still be nice in case...

Ca. 1983 I was in the Times Square station waiting to hoof it up to school in Harlem. There was a tiny little black child, about 2, with this HUGE black woman - grandma... or a crack ho' I suppose...

The child was terrifed of the noises. When the train arrived, she refused to get on. I took a seat right next to the door and all of a sudden the child literally flew into the car, slamming against the opposite door across the aisle. That humongous bitch stomped in yelling and screaming at this poor creature with things like, "you mutha fucka'" and, "Ahma kick yo' ass" and so forth. The train takes off and the whole time this woman is beating the snot out of this child because she would not stop crying. Yeah, beating a crying child always gets them to stop.

I was beside myself. I felt the tears coming up in my eyes and was really straining to keep my shit squared away. It was then I noticed the guy sitting across from me, a young black man dressed for Wall Street. Clean cut and well put together - he weren't no trash from the 'hood. We looked each other right in the eyes and I knew he, too, was about to come out of his hide. When we got to 125th street I got out, turned to that sour whore and said, "you're a sick fuck." That half-back sized bitch shot across that train and punched me in the teeth and that was the end of it for me. I jumped on her and the black guy joined me. Believe it or not, I literally cannot recall what all happened, save that the next thing I knew, the doors were closing, the woman was unconscious on the floor of the train, and the guy and I were standing there on the platform watching the train leave as we held the child.

I remember looking at him and asking, "what do we do now? You know this is technically kidnapping, right?" To that he told me not to worry about it and that he would take it from there. The really weird bit in it was that there was NO mention of this on the six o'clock news. I was fully expecting it to be blasted city-wide and a composite of the two of us plastered on every wall in the city. Not a peep. It was my fantasy that that man took that cute little baby and raised her as his own. I doubt it worked out that way. The 126th precinct was close by and I suspect he surrendered her there... but who knows?

There have been so many stories of people being murdered in the subways in front of huge crowds who stood by and did nothing. They don't owe it to act, but why would you not? Of course, being disarmed is a factor in all of this. Good going ye governors!

HOLLYWOOD
12-06-2012, 09:24 AM
http://americablog.com/2012/12/ny-post-photographs-man-about-to-be-killed-by-nyc-subway-car.html


<iframe src='http://widget.newsinc.com/single.html?WID=1&VID=23906928&freewheel=69016&sitesection=&w=578&h=325' height='325' width='578' scrolling='no' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0'></iframe>

thoughtomator
12-06-2012, 09:45 AM
I don't think everyone would be as quick as they say to help him, when the chances are not insignificant that, like a drowning person, the rescuer could also be pulled in by the panicked rescuee. Especially if it appeared at any point that he would be able to climb out on his own.

angelatc
12-06-2012, 09:56 AM
I don't think everyone would be as quick as they say to help him, when the chances are not insignificant that, like a drowning person, the rescuer could also be pulled in by the panicked rescuee. Especially if it appeared at any point that he would be able to climb out on his own.

I know I freeze. I wish I didn't, but I've been in situations (not life and death, thank God) that require quick reflexes, and I don't have them. My husband would have been the guy to pull him out though. He's as quick as a cat in these types of situations.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-06-2012, 10:06 AM
I don't think everyone would be as quick as they say to help him, when the chances are not insignificant that, like a drowning person, the rescuer could also be pulled in by the panicked rescuee. Especially if it appeared at any point that he would be able to climb out on his own.


Pretty good points. But if he was down there for 90 seconds as some reports have said, that's a long time to not get yourself out. Then you also have to worry about the guy who pushed him in re-involving himself.

Seems like the best solution would be 2 people for starters. Second idea (two people still) is to take off your shirt(s) and use them like ropes so you can disengage if he's pulling you in. So you'd have to tell one strong looking guy to help you, and tell some other people to watch the guy who originally pushed him in. (so he doesn't come up behind you)

This is actually the value in thinking about things like this ahead of time. Prior to now, I had not realized that the original hostile person might still be hostile. I would not want my back to that person without someone at least watching to warn me he is coming. The only way that would happen is by making one or several people responsible for it.

Not that I really EVER run around giving people "commands," but large groups of people really do just stand there often if no one is directing them.

V3n
12-06-2012, 10:19 AM
Unless the 'onlookers' had military or other emergency service training, I don't think 22 seconds is enough time to get one's wits about them and react. Some of that time would have just been him trying to regain his feet. I think if someone did try to help him, we'd be reading about 2 deaths, not one.

Also, I've read eyewitness reports that the victim was drunk and started a fight with the assailant. A drunk man would have been even harder to pull out.

V3n
12-06-2012, 10:27 AM
Not that I really EVER run around giving people "commands," but large groups of people really do just stand there often if no one is directing them.

Too back up what you are saying: I have read if you are ever in trouble and you see people watching but not helping, the trick is to single one person out, point, make eye contact. "You! Call 911!" that person will while they others are still all too confused and stuck in mob mentality.

presence
12-06-2012, 10:29 AM
Not that I really EVER run around giving people "commands," but large groups of people really do just stand there often if no one is directing them.

I have no problem breaking out the voice of Sauron when need be. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBW4zu45VXM

Hocus freakin pocus... get the dude out of the subway pit.


...though I might do it too often, my kid barked "go to your room" to my wife yesterday.

kcchiefs6465
12-06-2012, 10:54 AM
Either that or they were simply too busy to care about someone else.
Many people are ignorant as to which rail is hot and which is not. They probably knew there was a chance they could get cooked and were waiting for subway workers to come. The victim seemed drunk and belligerent and the man who pushed him probably just lost his temper really not meaning for this to happen. All in all a tragedy.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-06-2012, 11:00 AM
Too back up what you are saying: I have read if you are ever in trouble and you see people watching but not helping, the trick is to single one person out, point, make eye contact. "You! Call 911!" that person will while they others are still all too confused and stuck in mob mentality.


Yep. I used the exact same example earlier in this thread. :) :) :)




...though I might do it too often, my kid barked "go to your room" to my wife yesterday.


Did it work?

Danke
12-06-2012, 11:28 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-subway-push-suspect-denied-bail/story?id=17890956#.UMDHRoYndUc

osan
12-06-2012, 11:35 AM
I don't think everyone would be as quick as they say to help him, when the chances are not insignificant that, like a drowning person, the rescuer could also be pulled in by the panicked rescuee. Especially if it appeared at any point that he would be able to climb out on his own.

Perhaps not, but you don't know that. When I was 19 I stuck a Browning HiPower in the kisser of some stupid prick who was beating his girlfriend on Pacific Coast Highway in Redondo Beach. He went away, quickly. I escorted the young miss home and that was the end of it. Not everyone is a coward.

Brian4Liberty
12-06-2012, 11:55 AM
I don't think everyone would be as quick as they say to help him, when the chances are not insignificant that, like a drowning person, the rescuer could also be pulled in by the panicked rescuee. Especially if it appeared at any point that he would be able to climb out on his own.

Yep. Pulling him out could get you pulled in. And would the guy that pushed him in push you in too?


Then you also have to worry about the guy who pushed him in re-involving himself.


The photographer said that part of that 22 seconds was spent making way for and avoiding the pusher. People would not want to go over to that narrow portion of the platform with the pusher still there.

Pulling a guy out of that could be harder than it looks (from experience). If you grab both hands and lift them, they can just hang there with their waist and legs still in the hole, unable to swing their leg out to help get themselves out. Depends upon how heavy they are, and what kind of footing you have. They can kind of catch at the waist, preventing you from pulling them further out. You can try pulling on just one arm, but even then, they might not have strength or a grip to help pull themselves out. The victim being drunk would not help. Probably take two people to pull him out easily.

FindLiberty
12-06-2012, 12:05 PM
yea,
Probably take two people to pull him out

AGRP
12-06-2012, 12:13 PM
How many private businesses have been forced out of business simply because they couldn't afford ada compliant ramps and bathrooms? Meanwhile in a NY subway...

Danke
12-06-2012, 12:22 PM
Watching the video, it appears he could have gone between the trains in the middle, but he was drunk and probably didn't think of that.

http://ktransit.com/transit/NAmerica/usnymetro/newyork/subway/stations/Manhattan/Photos/nyc-hr-s-tsq-072602-01.jpg

AGRP
12-06-2012, 12:29 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-subway-push-suspect-denied-bail/story?id=17890956#.UMDHRoYndUc

If there was a confrontation and he was drunk, then is it reasonable that someone would push him? Gotta love it how the city of NYC is innocent in all of this for not installing safety devices.

osan
12-06-2012, 12:51 PM
Then you also have to worry about the guy who pushed him in re-involving himself.

Good point. Once that becomes a clear issue, the proper procedure is to remove him has a factor, preferably by breaking both of his legs and arms, thereby putting his primary weapons out of service. Granted, that takes a pair, but if you're going to get involved you'd better be loaded for bear.


Seems like the best solution would be 2 people for starters. Second idea (two people still) is to take off your shirt(s) and use them like ropes so you can disengage if he's pulling you in. So you'd have to tell one strong looking guy to help you, and tell some other people to watch the guy who originally pushed him in. (so he doesn't come up behind you).

You don't watch anything. You neutralize. Few greater problems could one expect than to have this guy up your six when you are in the middle of shit and the train is bearing down on you. Break his limbs, leave him in a heap, get someone to kick his teeth down his throat if he so much as twitches, get the guy out of the pit, and then get the fuck out of dodge because in NYC you stand as much chance of going to prison as being hailed a hero when you help others, which may be yet another reason why some did nothing for that poor stooge.


This is actually the value in thinking about things like this ahead of time. Prior to now, I had not realized that the original hostile person might still be hostile. I would not want my back to that person without someone at least watching to warn me he is coming. The only way that would happen is by making one or several people responsible for it.


Exactly. This is right thinking.

presence
12-06-2012, 12:51 PM
If there was a confrontation and he was drunk, then is it reasonable that someone would push him? Gotta love it how the city of NYC is innocent in all of this for not installing safety devices.

You know if the subway system was privately held it would have some regulation requiring 12 guards and an impassable gate to be closed until the subway arrived.

AGRP
12-06-2012, 01:00 PM
You know if the subway system was privately held it would have some regulation requiring 12 guards and an impassable gate to be closed until the subway arrived.

Well, even building codes require safety railing be installed on virtually anything that is above a few feet when someone builds things like decks, but magically it doesnt apply to the subway. He shouldnt be charged with murder, but possibly manslaughter.

KingNothing
12-06-2012, 01:05 PM
Where is the photographer?

Is there not one single person on that platform that could have helped?

FTW...

You, Mr. Braveheart, would have surely done something and saved the drunken man's life, with the maniac who threw him down there still menacing around.

KingNothing
12-06-2012, 01:07 PM
*sigh* That cover really bothers me and when I saw it for the first time I nearly vomited.

It's an extremely emotional photo, though. That's literally seconds before he was struck. The distance the train was, it was probably 3 or 4 seconds away from striking him. Do you wonder what that man was thinking, what his last thoughts were? Do you think he knew he was going to die? I wonder what the conductor was thinking that very instance.

All those thoughts aside... I think it's wrong to assume anyone would act any different if they were there. This is truly something you can never prepare for or know how you would react until it actually happens... and you just have to hold onto hope you would act differently. But I have seen people who have sworn they have seen it all stop dead in their tracks in certain situations because of shock, disbelief, and just not knowing what to do. It's amazing how in a sheer second of panic, common-sense can go out of the window - it's especially tragic when that sheer second of panic costs someone their life.


Don't tell that to the Would Be Heroes around here!!! They're legends in their own minds.

dannno
12-06-2012, 01:17 PM
It's amazing how 1-2 seconds can feel like minutes. Everything moving in slow motion. I think it may be some base ancient human survival instinct.

That's what happens to professional athletes, like baseball players who are hitting baseballs at 90-100mph. Basketball players, like Michael Jordan. Quarterbacks, etc.. They are able to put themselves in the zone.

donnay
12-06-2012, 01:30 PM
Bloomberg will stop all people from getting alcohol. Before you go into the subway platform you have to take a breathalyzer test. Problem solved. <s>

Nirvikalpa
12-06-2012, 01:36 PM
I for one am not going to sit there and fiddle with taking photos with my "smart phone" because I don't own one.

http://www.presentermedia.com/files/animsp/00007000/7820/walking_while_texting_md_wm.gif




+rep

I was stuck with a man in the midst of a heart attack one time when an idiot EMT told me to "hang out for a second while I go call 911".

Was he off duty? God forbid I ever see something occur before my eyes... I would honestly hesitate to help. Thank the government for that.

It's a sad world when I go out of my way to hide the fact I am an EMT in public, at restaurants, bars, etc. Thank God nothing has ever happened to make me choose sides...

Captain Shays
12-06-2012, 01:36 PM
Bloomberg will stop all people from getting alcohol. Before you go into the subway platform you have to take a breathalyzer test. Problem solved. <s>


PLEASE don't give him any ideas

KingNothing
12-06-2012, 01:36 PM
Bloomberg will stop all people from getting alcohol. Before you go into the subway platform you have to take a breathalyzer test. Problem solved. <s>

You say this in jest, but he's just insane and nannying enough to try it.

Brian4Liberty
12-06-2012, 01:55 PM
Watching the video, it appears he could have gone between the trains in the middle, but he was drunk and probably didn't think of that.

Yeah, he stood in the wrong place. Another option would be to lay down in the center of the tracks. Train will just go over you. There was a case where someone was on the tracks, and another person jumped down to save them. The train came too fast so the rescuer laid on top of the person and the train cleared both of them.

RockEnds
12-06-2012, 01:58 PM
I know I freeze. I wish I didn't, but I've been in situations (not life and death, thank God) that require quick reflexes, and I don't have them. My husband would have been the guy to pull him out though. He's as quick as a cat in these types of situations.

Reflexes is really what it all comes down to. I usually don't freeze, but I did once. When my first child was born, he was catching his breath, I guess. He gasped for air. It scared me, and I reached for him, but I literally froze. It's the only time it's ever happened to me, but I couldn't move. That same boy, when he was in high school got speared in the back of the head while he was catching a pass and passed out in the air. One of the dads pulled me off the fence. I was about half way to the top. ;) Then he broke his ankle during a basket ball game. The ref didn't blow the whistle, and he was being trampled. No one grabbed me that time. I flew out of the stands, scooped up my 6'2" kid, and carried him to the bench before anyone could do a thing. All reflexes. No thinking whatsoever involved. I couldn't carry that kid for a million bucks, but I didn't even notice him being heavy that day. Just reflexes. Adrenaline.

Anti Federalist
12-06-2012, 02:03 PM
You, Mr. Braveheart, would have surely done something and saved the drunken man's life, with the maniac who threw him down there still menacing around.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/04/ki-suk-han-man-fatally-struck-subway-one-minute-tracks_n_2238334.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Over a minute. Not split seconds. Not even seconds. Over a minute.

That's how long that man was down there, struggling.

And what would you have done?

Just watched? Walked away? Listened on hold calling 911? Would you have hung around, waiting to watch him to be crushed?

Or did he deserve it, because he was acting like a drunken asshole?

Yes, I would have done something to help, I've done it before.

vita3
12-06-2012, 02:33 PM
News Corp (owner NY POST) is pure evil.

VoluntaryAmerican
12-06-2012, 02:51 PM
I don't see anything wrong with this. Yes it is a distasteful picture, I agree. Oh well? The news isn't always pretty.

More importantly I guarantee this picture will help catch the psycho who pushed the man on the tracks. Also it's good business for the newspaper, I'm sure they sold a lot of copies.

TheNewYorker
12-06-2012, 03:23 PM
Duh no one believes him. The guy killed is in the center of the photograph and the flash from the camera is clearly hitting the platform right where the guy is.

Apparently he was on the tracks for 22 seconds and unable to get out and no one helped him. Absolutely disgraceful imo.



Conductor still should have seen the flashes no matter how far away he was. But really how would the conductor know that a camera flash meant someone was on the tracks? That's not the first thing I would have thought if I was the conductor. I would just think it was someone taking a picture of my train.

But can you really blame people for not helping him? We live in the lawsuit state. Had someone tried to help him and his leg got tore off or something, he would be suing them for millions, claiming the person that was trying to help him only hindered him from escaping.

I know someone that rescued an injured man in dire circumstances. Long story short the victim suffered spinal damage and was somewhat paralyzed and sued my friend claiming he wouldn't have been injured if it wasn't for my friend trying to help him. The funny part is the victim was totally thankful of my friend and so happy he got rescued... until he got home or something and some greedy family member told him to sue my friend or something.

Fortunately my friend ended up winning since the nature of the injury could not have been caused by my friend after examination - but the law process took a major toll on his sanity and family life.

AFPVet
12-06-2012, 04:52 PM
Yep... instead of trying to help the guy, he just takes a picture of him about to be mush.

kcchiefs6465
12-06-2012, 05:30 PM
Over a minute. Not split seconds. Not even seconds. Over a minute.

That's how long that man was down there, struggling.

And what would you have done?

Just watched? Walked away? Listened on hold calling 911? Would you have hung around, waiting to watch him to be crushed?

Or did he deserve it, because he was acting like a drunken asshole?

Yes, I would have done something to help, I've done it before.
Quite honestly, if I stopped to think about the situation at the time, I would have waited until someone with more knowledge of the power and ground lines for the subway system came. After all, being melted to a concrete slab is one of the many deaths I am trying my damnedest to avoid. In all honesty though, I believe in the spur of the moment, seeing him down there, I would have grabbed his arm and tried to pull him up regardless. It is very easy to say what you would or wouldn't do. I would analogize it to this- Would you walk through a mine field to save someone that had 22 seconds before their mine blew up? It's very difficult to say. I like to believe I would.

FWIW, I believe the third rail is the hot rail. (from the platform out)

ETA: I definitely wouldn't be recording the situation. That's fucking ridiculous.

AFPVet
12-06-2012, 06:14 PM
Quite honestly, if I stopped to think about the situation at the time, I would have waited until someone with more knowledge of the power and ground lines for the subway system came. After all, being melted to a concrete slab is one of the many deaths I am trying my damnedest to avoid. In all honesty though, I believe in the spur of the moment, seeing him down there, I would have grabbed his arm and tried to pull him up regardless. It is very easy to say what you would or wouldn't do. I would analogize it to this- Would you walk through a mine field to save someone that had 22 seconds before their mine blew up? It's very difficult to say. I like to believe I would.

FWIW, I believe the third rail is the hot rail. (from the platform out)

ETA: I definitely wouldn't be recording the situation. That's fucking ridiculous.

Yeah, it's the third rail... someone could've helped him.

bolil
12-06-2012, 10:40 PM
Hmmm, well to be an over analytical blah blaher I might say the photographer, whom we should stone to death, DISTRACTED the conductor, via flash, on PURPOSE. There is but one solution: Kill all photographers, all.

John F Kennedy III
12-07-2012, 01:04 AM
Oh, and there have been scientific experiments regarding this phenomenon. I can't remember the exact details, but I know of at least one where they had numbers flashing on a wristband. (and the numbers would flash for certain fractions of a second.) When they dropped people from heights (from a platform of some type), they were able to read the numbers better. The point they were trying to make is that the stress of falling caused people to perceive time differently, allowing them to read the flashing numbers. When they were not under stress (not falling), the numbers flashed too fast for them to perceive.

Yeah it's exactly like that. I've been in a few situations where that has happened.

John F Kennedy III
12-07-2012, 01:16 AM
Was he off duty? God forbid I ever see something occur before my eyes... I would honestly hesitate to help. Thank the government for that.

It's a sad world when I go out of my way to hide the fact I am an EMT in public, at restaurants, bars, etc. Thank God nothing has ever happened to make me choose sides...

I got my CNA license at Job Corps about 4 years ago. A requirement to pass the class is you have to get your CPR license. I don't know the law on it anywhere else, but in Texas if you have your CPR card and don't help someone who needs CPR, you can go to jail.

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 05:31 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/04/ki-suk-han-man-fatally-struck-subway-one-minute-tracks_n_2238334.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Over a minute. Not split seconds. Not even seconds. Over a minute.

That's how long that man was down there, struggling.

And what would you have done?

Just watched? Walked away? Listened on hold calling 911? Would you have hung around, waiting to watch him to be crushed?

Or did he deserve it, because he was acting like a drunken asshole?

Yes, I would have done something to help, I've done it before.


Of course you have. You're a 300+ pound Clark Kent, really.

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 05:33 AM
22 seconds is an amazingly short amount of time to even realize there's a problem, let alone to analyze the situation and address it properly. Anyone who says they'd "do something" to help is speaking without any knowledge of situation whatsoever.

kathy88
12-07-2012, 06:41 AM
Was he off duty? God forbid I ever see something occur before my eyes... I would honestly hesitate to help. Thank the government for that.

It's a sad world when I go out of my way to hide the fact I am an EMT in public, at restaurants, bars, etc. Thank God nothing has ever happened to make me choose sides...

While I was trick or treating my friend and I watched an entire family get hit by a car. My friend is an LPN. I told her she had to go over there and help. She wouldn't. She was frozen and didn't want to get involved. I've only talked to her twice since. I was apalled.

tod evans
12-07-2012, 06:51 AM
Please for your own sanity get out of the big city and try to forget the mentality that accompanies life there...

The Navy trained me as a corpsman, I procured first an EMT-A license then an EMT-P before figuring out that I don't play well with others....Even with the knowledge of legal ramifications I will never not help a person in need...


Was he off duty? God forbid I ever see something occur before my eyes... I would honestly hesitate to help. Thank the government for that.

It's a sad world when I go out of my way to hide the fact I am an EMT in public, at restaurants, bars, etc. Thank God nothing has ever happened to make me choose sides...

acptulsa
12-07-2012, 07:25 AM
Another option would be to lay down in the center of the tracks. Train will just go over you.

That does work with full sized trains, like freight trains. You people in New York City, Washington, Chicago, et al shouldn't count on it. El/subway trains tend to be built closer to the ground. And yes, I've never seen a platform where the hot rail (where there is a hot rail; subway and El tracks have them but even trolley tracks lack them) wasn't farthest from the platform. It's also higher than the others, and mounted on insulators. So, it's easy to spot.

So, if you're ever in the one in a billion situation, now you know.

As for this photographer, he clearly didn't freeze or he'd have never gotten the picture. So, he made a choice--save a life or make money. We see which he chose. And who gave him the money for failing to save the life? Rupert Murdoch, of course--through his bastion of liberal compassion, the Post. Just a little more ammo for discrediting Murdoch and all his properties...

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 07:54 AM
While I was trick or treating my friend and I watched an entire family get hit by a car. My friend is an LPN. I told her she had to go over there and help. She wouldn't. She was frozen and didn't want to get involved. I've only talked to her twice since. I was apalled.

I'm not sure what help an LPN could have been in that situation. She should have just called 911 and waited with the injured people, I imagine.

presence
12-07-2012, 07:58 AM
As for this photographer, he clearly didn't freeze or he'd have never gotten the picture. So, he made a choice--save a life or make money. And we see which he chose. And who gave him the $$$ money $$$ for failing to save the life? Rupert Murdoch, of course--through his bastion of liberal compassion, the Post.

+rep












-----------------
kind off off topic but to answer your question:


Was he off duty?

ON duty, hourly payroll, mid shift, music festival; tending a heart attack was definately his job; not mine. Looking back I think he didn't want to be present when the guy died. I kept dude alive through two "posturing" events, loss of heartbeat, several minutes assisted breathing until paramedics took over. Dude lived through OD suicide attempt.

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 07:59 AM
I will never not help a person in need...

My friends and family have the same mentality. Certainly, it is good to have and people who's initial instinct is "I NEED TO HELP" should be lauded. We need more of them.

At the same time, people around here have been extremely brash when evaluating what another person should or should not have done in a difficult situation.

tod evans
12-07-2012, 08:00 AM
I'm not sure what help an LPN could have been in that situation. She should have just called 911 and waited with the injured people, I imagine.

Anybody with the most basic knowledge can and should stop all arterial bleeding, immobilize spines and extricate all victims from harms way...LPN/CNA/EMT/MD......doesn't matter, common sense and decency dictate action not dialing 911.

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 08:13 AM
Anybody with the most basic knowledge can and should stop all arterial bleeding, immobilize spines and extricate all victims from harms way...LPN/CNA/EMT/MD......doesn't matter, common sense and decency dictate action not dialing 911.

I don't disagree with this. At the same time, I understand that LPNs and CNAs generally have a mentality of deference in the hospital and it isn't a great leap to imagine that many people might extrapolate that to the outside world and be hesitant to act. This is me just trying to understand the mind-set of the people involved -- based on their backgrounds and experience, we might be able to tell why they react certain ways. LPNs and CNAs are certainly useful individuals and their work should be respected, but the scope of their work in a hospital setting is limited and that could cause their initial, instinctual, response to be non-action in the rare situations we're describing.

tod evans
12-07-2012, 08:20 AM
Earlier I posted about my inability to "play well with others".....This hierarchy you describe in hospital politics is exactly why I made the choice to pursue carpentry as a vocation instead of emergency medicine..

I just flat out refuse to act or not act in violation of my own conscience..


I don't disagree with this. At the same time, I understand that LPNs and CNAs generally have a mentality of deference in the hospital and it isn't a great leap to imagine that many people might extrapolate that to the outside world and be hesitant to act. This is me just trying to understand the mind-set of the people involved -- based on their backgrounds and experience, we might be able to tell why they react certain ways. LPNs and CNAs are certainly useful individuals and their work should be respected, but the scope of their work in a hospital setting is limited and that could cause their initial, instinctual, response to be non-action in the rare situations we're describing.

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 08:24 AM
I got my CNA license at Job Corps about 4 years ago. A requirement to pass the class is you have to get your CPR license. I don't know the law on it anywhere else, but in Texas if you have your CPR card and don't help someone who needs CPR, you can go to jail.


Question, answer without thinking:

Hitler needs CPR. You're certified. Do you give it? QUICK! ANSWER!


...what a silly law.

tod evans
12-07-2012, 08:28 AM
Question, answer without thinking:

Hitler needs CPR. You're certified. Do you give it? QUICK! ANSWER!


...what a silly law.

I would help Hitler just as quickly as I'd help some crack addict.......Politicians are the absolute lowest form of life on this planet, even lower than cops, and I'd help them too.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't kick em' in the teeth once they're stabilized..;)

FrancisMarion
12-07-2012, 08:48 AM
With the technology that exists today, there is absolutely no reason that a train conductor should not know whether there is life ahead of him on the rails.

osan
12-07-2012, 09:27 AM
Yeah, he stood in the wrong place. Another option would be to lay down in the center of the tracks. Train will just go over you. There was a case where someone was on the tracks, and another person jumped down to save them. The train came too fast so the rescuer laid on top of the person and the train cleared both of them.

Laying down between the tracks is the best bet as going between rail beds necessitates crossing the third rail, which provides thousands of amps of current and will cook you like a lightning strike. I've been down in the pit and it's creepy there.

osan
12-07-2012, 09:28 AM
With the technology that exists today, there is absolutely no reason that a train conductor should not know whether there is life ahead of him on the rails.

Yah, and who is going to pay for all that technology?

That's what I thought.

osan
12-07-2012, 09:32 AM
I got my CNA license at Job Corps about 4 years ago. A requirement to pass the class is you have to get your CPR license. I don't know the law on it anywhere else, but in Texas if you have your CPR card and don't help someone who needs CPR, you can go to jail.

How is it that in some ways Texas is so good and in other so unfathomably stupid?

Go to jail for failing to administer CPR? What raft of imbeciles vomited that hairball up and into the laps of the citizenry?

Before we know it some of us are going to be escaping to China for relative freedom.

belian78
12-07-2012, 10:02 AM
No, it was a photographer. He said he was trying to warn the conductor by using the camera's flash. Nobody seems to believe him.
Sorry for my language, but that is god damn disgusting. How can a person live the rest of their lives with that memory? Knowing that a person was looking at their death, and instead of helping, you took a fucking picture and then had the audacity to make money off of it? How could any person with a soul live with themselves after that?

belian78
12-07-2012, 10:09 AM
Unless the 'onlookers' had military or other emergency service training, I don't think 22 seconds is enough time to get one's wits about them and react. Some of that time would have just been him trying to regain his feet. I think if someone did try to help him, we'd be reading about 2 deaths, not one.

Also, I've read eyewitness reports that the victim was drunk and started a fight with the assailant. A drunk man would have been even harder to pull out.
Speaking from experience, 22 seconds would be a lifetime to the person who had their head about them. I've pulled people out of fires, out of frozen lakes, and off ledges before, it didn't take me 22 seconds. In an instance like that, adrenaline kicks in and it truly is like the stores, you have energy you didnt realize you had. But coming down off that really takes it out of you for quite some time.

And no, for the record I'm not trying to brag or make myself seem cool. I at times wish that I hadn't had to do those things, they were some of the scariest moments of my life. You can't help but think what would happen if you hadn't been as quick, or if your grip hadn't been as good. It can shake ya if you let it.

Danke
12-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Sorry for my language, but that is god damn disgusting. How can a person live the rest of their lives with that memory? Knowing that a person was looking at their death, and instead of helping, you took a fucking picture and then had the audacity to make money off of it? How could any person with a soul live with themselves after that?

The photographer: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/07/subway-photographer-its-chilling-to-me/?hpt=ac_bn1

sam1952
12-07-2012, 10:18 AM
It's amazing how 1-2 seconds can feel like minutes. Everything moving in slow motion. I think it may be some base ancient human survival instinct.

Years ago on a job site a friend tossed me a single edge razor knife. I remember thinking as it came towards me, is the blade in or out. I eventually let it drop to the ground. My friend and I talked about it and I remember telling him I felt like I had all the time in world to decide whether to catch it or or not. My thought process had to be so fast it literally slowed down time as normally perceived.. The blade was turned around safely btw.

AFPVet
12-07-2012, 10:18 AM
Please for your own sanity get out of the big city and try to forget the mentality that accompanies life there...

The Navy trained me as a corpsman, I procured first an EMT-A license then an EMT-P before figuring out that I don't play well with others....Even with the knowledge of legal ramifications I will never not help a person in need...

Some states have the Good Samaritan law, so you could be legally screwed if you didn't help someone. Conversely, in my state, the Good Samaritan laws would actually protect off duty EMTs from liability—provided that they are operating within their training.

FrancisMarion
12-07-2012, 10:27 AM
Yah, and who is going to pay for all that technology?

That's what I thought.

The people who ride the trains of course.

Its not rocket science. The same type of sensors are becoming prevalent in mass produced cars. Or, how about just good all fashioned cameras that feed to the controller.

Not that big of an expense.

Nirvikalpa
12-07-2012, 10:30 AM
I got my CNA license at Job Corps about 4 years ago. A requirement to pass the class is you have to get your CPR license. I don't know the law on it anywhere else, but in Texas if you have your CPR card and don't help someone who needs CPR, you can go to jail.

Hence the reason why I hide the fact I am an EMT. If I go out with Matt anywhere with my EMS jacket on (with only a patch on the shoulder), I sit on the side so that my patch is towards the wall. I'm extremely conscious of it.

This isn't just my idea on the subject. Many of my colleagues have told me... if you see a car accident, keep on driving (and call 911 anonymously). In all honesty, I think I would be the type of person who would help. Would I be extra-super-cautious? Absolutely. Then again, I am protected as far as my protocols go - which, without a rig and a jump bag, I would not be much help at all (could do CPR, work an AED, perform the hiemlich)... no airways, no oxygen, no bandaging, no tourniquets, no backboards, no c-collars, no glucose, you get the drift...

There's a lot of confusion over the "Good Samaritan Law," and who is protected by it. The Good Samaritan law, as far as I know, has a main rule of protecting those who "do not have a duty to act." Does a volunteer EMT, off-duty have a duty to act? If so, they are not protected by the law - and can be sued. What's worse is it varies statewide - in some states it protects ONLY untrained bystanders, and in others, ONLY TRAINED professionals. In some states, even VOLUNTEER, ON-DUTY EMT's are not binded legally to act... the "duty to act" is strictly compensation-based.

You also have states that are the complete opposite - pretty sure Texas has a law where you're not at all required to help someone if it is against your will (even being compensated? don't know).

Things can even get fuzzier from there. Say you are working for a BLS (basic life support) company at the time a ALS (advanced life support) call comes in. As usual, both BLS and ALS is dispatched. You are a EMT-P (paramedic)... and you arrive first on scene and are aware ALS will be arriving soon, but your patient really needs ALS NOW. Do you act as a paramedic or a basic?

Honestly, I would feel odd assisting someone without proper paperwork that would protect me - without being able to get binding signatures. I wouldn't have my parental consent papers, my refusal of medical aid papers... nothing. It's just my word vs. theirs, and that's too risky for me.

I don't even know my own state laws in regard to the Good Samaritan law, duty to act, etc etc. No one does. As I said before, it absolutely scares me and tears at my heartstrings, and THANK GOD no event has ever occurred before my eyes to make me choose. I pray it never will.

belian78
12-07-2012, 10:31 AM
The photographer: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/07/subway-photographer-its-chilling-to-me/?hpt=ac_bn1
So was it 22 seconds that he was standing there, or was it a matter of a few seconds when he came down into the subway? Anything over 10-15 seconds would have been a lifetime to stand there and not do anything.

Henry Rogue
12-07-2012, 10:44 AM
Speaking from experience, 22 seconds would be a lifetime to the person who had their head about them. I've pulled people out of fires, out of frozen lakes, and off ledges before, it didn't take me 22 seconds. In an instance like that, adrenaline kicks in and it truly is like the stores, you have energy you didnt realize you had. But coming down off that really takes it out of you for quite some time.

And no, for the record I'm not trying to brag or make myself seem cool. I at times wish that I hadn't had to do those things, they were some of the scariest moments of my life. You can't help but think what would happen if you hadn't been as quick, or if your grip hadn't been as good. It can shake ya if you let it.
+ rep. I don't doubt you, just amazed. how did you find yourself in those situations? I like those kind of stories.

AFPVet
12-07-2012, 10:55 AM
In my state, you would be covered either way:


IC 16-31-6
Chapter 6. Immunity From Liability

IC 16-31-6-1
Emergency medical technician services
Sec. 1. (a) A certified emergency medical technician who provides emergency medical services to an emergency patient is not liable for an act or omission in providing those services unless the act or omission constitutes negligence or willful misconduct. If the emergency medical technician is not liable for an act or omission, no other person incurs liability by reason of an agency relationship with the emergency medical technician.
(b) This section does not affect the liability of a driver of an ambulance for negligent operation of the ambulance.
As added by P.L.2-1993, SEC.14. Amended by P.L.205-2003, SEC.33; P.L.77-2012, SEC.46.


C 34-30-12
Chapter 12. Health Care: Immunity of Persons Rendering Emergency First Aid

IC 34-30-12-1
Gratuitously rendered emergency care; immunity
Sec. 1. (a) This section does not apply to services rendered by a health care provider (as defined in IC 34-18-2-14 or IC 27-12-2-14 before its repeal) to a patient in a health care facility (as defined in IC 27-8-10-1).
(b) Except as provided in subsection (c), a person who comes upon the scene of an emergency or accident, complies with IC 9-26-1-1.5, or is summoned to the scene of an emergency or accident and, in good faith, gratuitously renders emergency care at the scene of the emergency or accident is immune from civil liability for any personal injury that results from:
(1) any act or omission by the person in rendering the emergency care; or
(2) any act or failure to act to provide or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured person;
except for acts or omissions amounting to gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct.
(c) This subsection applies to a person to whom IC 16-31-6.5 applies. A person who gratuitously renders emergency care involving the use of an automatic external defibrillator is immune from liability for any act or omission not amounting to gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct if the person fulfills the requirements set forth in IC 16-31-6.5.
(d) This subsection applies to an individual, business, or organization to which IC 16-31-6.5 applies. An individual, business, or organization that allows a person who is an expected user to use an automatic external defibrillator of the individual, business, or organization to in good faith gratuitously render emergency care is immune from civil liability for any damages resulting from an act or omission not amounting to gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct by the user or for acquiring or providing the automatic external defibrillator to the user for the purpose of rendering the emergency care if the individual, business, or organization and the user fulfill the requirements set forth in IC 16-31-6.5.
(e) A licensed physician who gives medical direction in the use of a defibrillator or a national or state approved defibrillator instructor of a person who gratuitously renders emergency care involving the use of an automatic external defibrillator is immune from civil liability for any act or omission of the licensed physician or instructor if the act or omission of the licensed physician or instructor:
(1) involves the training for or use of an automatic external defibrillator; and
(2) does not amount to gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct. As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.26. Amended by P.L.1-1999, SEC.73; P.L.84-2003, SEC.1 and P.L.91-2003, SEC.1; P.L.74-2006, SEC.5; P.L.126-2008, SEC.11.

IC 34-30-12-2
Gratuitously rendered cardiopulmonary resuscitation; immunity
Sec. 2. (a) This section applies to a person who has successfully completed a course of training in cardiopulmonary resuscitation according to the standards recommended by the Division of Medical Sciences, National Academy of Sciences - National Research Council.
(b) This section does not apply to acts or omissions amounting to gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct.
(c) An act or omission of the person while attempting to administer cardiopulmonary resuscitation, without pecuniary charge, to any person who is an apparent victim of acute cardiopulmonary insufficiency shall not impose any liability upon the person attempting the resuscitation.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.26.

belian78
12-07-2012, 11:04 AM
+ rep. I don't doubt you, just amazed. how did you find yourself in those situations? I like those kind of stories.
Well, the fire was an ex fiance. We were just enjoying a fall evening, I had built a fire in our pit which was about 6' across. We had went through a case of bud light ourselves, then friends showed up with a 30 pack and so we were into that as well. She went to go into the house and her foot caught the edging I had built up around the pit and she fell face first into about 6 hours worth of coals. Luckily I was standing right there, and to this day I have no idea how I did it but bent straight down I lifted her straight up by her waist and threw her out of the fire. Some of her hair was singed, she had a pretty bad cut on her forehead from hitting the opposite side of the edging, and she had a really bad burn on her stomach that I assume she still has a scar from today. Her falling and then landing on the grass happened in a matter of 5 seconds. like I said, I have no idea how I did that, especially after as much beer as I drank that day.

Frozen lake instance was a childhood friend that had the ice break underneath him, we were sleding and his sled when out onto the ice. It broke when he stood up, I just ran out, grabbed his arms and helped him climb out. My mom was so upset with me, and I couldn't understand why at the time, I was just helping my friend not drown. Now I know I that I could have very easily found myself in the same perdicament.

After I got custody of my son we were out walking the trails and he ran ahead of me. This was over 6 years ago so he was about 8 and like 8 year old boys will do, he was playing army man and running ahead of me, even with my futile attempts to slow him down. On the backside of this park we were in, the trails wind up the backside of a bunch of hills, then goes back down as you head back to the nature center. he started sliding down off the side of the trail and didn't realize there was a drop off. As I said, he was up ahead of me so I didnt see it either until I saw his head just disappear. I sprinted up there to see him grabbed onto a tree root and just hauled him up by his shirt. He continued to play soldier, but needless to say he didn't run too far ahead of me after that. It's amazing how a young child can shrug off something like that, I still think about it to this day.

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 11:10 AM
Some states have the Good Samaritan law, so you could be legally screwed if you didn't help someone.

Is that true, or does this only exist on Seinfeld?

KingNothing
12-07-2012, 11:12 AM
She went to go into the house and her foot caught the edging I had built up around the pit and she fell face first into about 6 hours worth of coals.

This may make me a terrible person, but I giggled when I visualized this. Maybe because it happened to an ex?

angelatc
12-07-2012, 11:23 AM
Some states have the Good Samaritan law, so you could be legally screwed if you didn't help someone. Conversely, in my state, the Good Samaritan laws would actually protect off duty EMTs from liability—provided that they are operating within their training.

I've never heard of that. But I have heard of laws that protect the bystanders that try to help.

Florida did not have that at one point. I met a guy in Florida once who, while riding his bike, was hit by a car that fled.. He was flung into the middle of the road. An elderly couple in the next car stopped, leaving their car in the road with the flashers on. Another car came, went around that car, cut back in and hit the poor guy again. That car also fled.

Because Florida did not have a Good Samaritan Law, the poor people that stopped to help got sued. Their lawyer claimed they should have positioned their car differently to prevent that from happening.

RockEnds
12-07-2012, 11:27 AM
In crisis situations, there is time to think, but not so much time to reason. I have a friend who is still a little irked at me for kicking him in the face. Eh, he should have thought better of what he was doing. He was having a bad month, no doubt. He came home one day, many, many years ago, and was upset that supper wasn't ready at 4:15 pm. Get over it. Supper's at 6 pm. He had this insulated coffee mug in his hand. Every day after work, he stopped at a truck stop not far from the house and filled his mug with very hot coffee. As it turned out, that day he had filled his mug with cold water from the fountain at work. He didn't stop at the truck stop. Well, he didn't bother to explain that before he tipped his mug and began dumping it on my head. Did I have time to think? Sort of. I had time to realize that there was most likely hot coffee hitting my head. I had time to realize that I needed to neutralize the threat. And I had time to kick him in the face sending him flying across the room. He's still mad because he thinks I should have had time to realize that the liquid was cold and not hot. Whatever. He also thinks I should have just moved. Well, if I would have known he was just throwing a baby fit, I might have. The fact is, there wasn't time to do a whole lot of philosophical reasoning. I perceived a threat. I neutralized it. If I would have fled, I could have been pursued. That's instinctual thought. It happens very, very quickly, and time doesn't slow down quite enough to involve much higher level reasoning. There's a threat. You react. Quickly and instinctively. There is thought involved, but not the kind of thought we can afford ourselves on an internet forum.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Well, he didn't bother to explain that before he tipped his mug and began dumping it on my head. Did I have time to think? Sort of. I had time to realize that there was most likely hot coffee hitting my head.


Interesting analysis, but I don't see why he's mad. If he purposely dumped cold water on a lot of people who knew it was cold water, he could still expect a kick in the face.

RockEnds
12-07-2012, 11:38 AM
Interesting analysis, but I don't see why he's mad. If he purposely dumped cold water on a lot of people who knew it was cold water, he could still expect a kick in the face.


Explain that to him! Preacher's kid. Sheltered life.

belian78
12-07-2012, 11:41 AM
This may make me a terrible person, but I giggled when I visualized this. Maybe because it happened to an ex?

Not a bad person at all. Once we realized she was going to be ok and got her bandaged (another small feat of wonder considering the amount of alcohol involved) we laughed our asses of at it. She was always really clumsy, so it was just her 'being Janelle' as we called it.

matt0611
12-07-2012, 12:07 PM
Didn't have time to read through this entire thread but why did no one help him?

I mean, I could see if he was on the ground on the tracks people would be paralyzed with fear to jump down there and help him but it looks like the guy is grabbing on to the edge and need a hand to get back up. No one was there to just give him a pull back on the platform?

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-07-2012, 12:19 PM
Explain that to him! Preacher's kid. Sheltered life.


That sort of shit usually gets explained by kicks in the face, although at a much younger age. Not that I have any desire to kick anyone or anything...

RockEnds
12-07-2012, 12:35 PM
That sort of shit usually gets explained by kicks in the face, although at a much younger age. Not that I have any desire to kick anyone or anything...

Agreed. But still, 20 years later he's telling me what I should have had time to think about at that moment. I'm quite sure that he has never found himself in a position where someone's life was immediately threatened. It's not only difficult for him to understand that I did feel threatened, but also impossible for him to understand what I did and didn't have time to think about. I was a little wild when I was young. I mighta found myself on the wrong end of a weapon a time or two. And it's easy to declare from a distance what one would or would not do under such circumstances, but when it's happening, the thoughts that we have in comfort aren't necessarily the ones that spring to mind in a crisis.

Lucille
12-07-2012, 12:47 PM
Sorry for my language, but that is god damn disgusting. How can a person live the rest of their lives with that memory? Knowing that a person was looking at their death, and instead of helping, you took a fucking picture and then had the audacity to make money off of it? How could any person with a soul live with themselves after that?


The photographer: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/07/subway-photographer-its-chilling-to-me/?hpt=ac_bn1


When Mr. Abassi looks at his photographs from that day, it is chilling to him. "It is like a man looking at his end. And the oncoming train, the metaphor for it, death staring him down."

It's chilling because it's a snuff photo, which the NY Post disgustingly put on its cover. "If it bleeds, it leads!"

Sickening all around.

Anti Federalist
12-07-2012, 01:12 PM
Didn't have time to read through this entire thread but why did no one help him?

I mean, I could see if he was on the ground on the tracks people would be paralyzed with fear to jump down there and help him but it looks like the guy is grabbing on to the edge and need a hand to get back up. No one was there to just give him a pull back on the platform?

Well, judging from the pulse of this thread, I guess nobody helped because:

A - You might sued.

B - It is much more fun to giggle, take pictures and watch somebody get crushed to death than to be some self glorifying hero.

And people wonder why the mob loves Caesars and dictators and presidents that kill by the millions?

AFPVet
12-07-2012, 02:28 PM
Yep... well, it might only be the select few like mine, but yeah, if you act within your training, you are immune from liability in the State of Indiana. I posted some of the state laws about it above. On the contrary, if you do not act (call 911 or stop and ask if they're alright), in many states, you can get into some doodoo. This extends to on or off duty EMTs, police officers, medics, doctors, nurses... AND anyone trained in CPR/First Aid.

tod evans
12-07-2012, 03:16 PM
Well, judging from the pulse of this thread, I guess nobody helped because:

A - You might sued.

B - It is much more fun to giggle, take pictures and watch somebody get crushed to death than to be some self glorifying hero.

And people wonder why the mob loves Caesars and dictators and presidents that kill by the millions?

And that's right here on liberty lovin' RPF......:eek::cool:

Nirvikalpa
12-07-2012, 03:38 PM
Say someone did try to pull him up, but could not pull him up all the way and both of his legs had to be amputated from the pelvis down.

Do you think you wouldn't get sued (asking purely hypothetical)? The hospitals bills, the physical therapy, the prosthetics... not cheap. They might not win the case, but the shear thought of the court process would mentally scar me (with a nervous problem), don't know about you all - then again, so would not doing anything at all and watching a man die before my eyes.

Here's another situation that could have occurred:

Say you walked down the steps to the subway just seconds before this happened. For all you know, the guy jumped down there (suicidal) on his own - as he thought about it, he realized his decision was a mistake and regretted it, and tried to get back up. People have regretted suicidal decisions, and then sued the person who came to their aid, saving their life. I would try to save a man who was pushed, and I would try to save a man who regretted his decision to end his life... would other people? I know EMT's/nurses/doctors who think very differently about people who try to take their own life.

Look at the lifeguard in California who lost his job for saving the drowning boy - hell, he even got hit with the hospital bill.

Society is fucked.

tod evans
12-07-2012, 04:13 PM
It's all about conscience........NOT law or fear of law suits..........My conscience will not permit me to walk away from someone I can help.

Anti Federalist
12-07-2012, 04:17 PM
Society is fucked.

That was my first thought when I posted this.

Nothing I've seen so far has convinced me that your assessment is false.

paulbot24
12-07-2012, 04:21 PM
Strange that nobody didn't help especially when you consider that according to "local" standards, he doesn't look like a fucking mutt (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/nypd-stop-and-frisk-search-harlem-student-fucking-mutt-alvin-harlem_n_1952169.html).

coastie
12-07-2012, 05:47 PM
As a trained first responder and cpr licensed(well, I was), and as someone who's hard-wired to help someone in trouble -- I wouldn't have hesitated at all. Notice I said trained. It takes a lot of repetitiveness and real world experience to "turn off" your natural inclination to freeze when TSHTF around you. I can be remarkably calm in the direst of situations, focusing on what needs to be done at the moment, and oblivious to everything else. But this takes practice, and unfortunately, a lot of indifference.

Also, I've noticed that when everyone's standing around not doing anything to help, its when that one person goes to help that seems to set that spark off in others minds, then they'll jump in, too. I've seen it happen several times.

Then again, we had a case once where I and another crew member(an EMT from Cincinnati), did CPR on a middle aged man that had "the big one" heart attack while on a charter boat 30 miles off shore. Because the other two available coasties were too busy with their puppy dog faces and feeling sorry for the guy and throwing up because of the weather and the sights and sounds -and smells- of doing CPR on someone for real to help, this kid and I had to swap out doing CPR for almost 2 hours on the trip back to the dock. We were not "authorized" to pronounce someone dead, which meant we had to keep going until told to stop by an EMT or a Dr, or too exhausted to continue. Some people, even after all of that training, just freeze up and become worthless when its go time. We both knew he was dead already, the AED wouldn't even charge up because it "knew" he was dead as well.

Someone else asked if you can be sued for not helping, well of course you can, this is America, aint it? ;)

CPR does a LOT of damage to the body when performed properly, and you can actually lacerate someone's liver if you do it too low on the chest(i.e. not doing it right). I was taught "If you aint crackin' and breakin' ribs-you aint doing it right." I've done it about 10 times on real people, and it's much more violent than what they show in the movies/TV. I couldn't begin to describe the sound and feeling. Its something you never forget, that's for sure. None of those 10 survived. That also, is only in the movies. I can see why some would be hesitant to perform it on someone, especially when you know the damage it can do, and how little of a chance the person has to survive either way.

Went a little o/t there, but I was just trying to say that those questioning what others would do(KingNothing to AF), have no idea what others would do, and I think it's kinda of shitty to even offer you're opinion on what others would do when you don't even know them. Its pretty obvious what KingNothing would have done, and that's nothing. Fitting name.

AGRP
12-07-2012, 05:57 PM
I dont blame anyone for not helping. In fact, it could have made the situation worse with two dead people. Imagine if he was hanging onto a meager stick just before going over niagra falls. It would be stupid to swim in there to help. Again, the blame should be placed at NYC for not installing a safety system but apparently its not that important to the people of NYC. Its reasonable that confrontations like this will occur and people will be pushed.

osan
12-07-2012, 07:41 PM
Say someone did try to pull him up, but could not pull him up all the way and both of his legs had to be amputated from the pelvis down.

Are you saying the guy lived?


Here's another situation that could have occurred:

Say you walked down the steps to the subway just seconds before this happened. For all you know, the guy jumped down there (suicidal) on his own - as he thought about it, he realized his decision was a mistake and regretted it, and tried to get back up. People have regretted suicidal decisions, and then sued the person who came to their aid, saving their life. I would try to save a man who was pushed, and I would try to save a man who regretted his decision to end his life... would other people? I know EMT's/nurses/doctors who think very differently about people who try to take their own life.

That is why you get out of there IMMEDIATELY after doing what you do. You get your ass home and you SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT for at least the 7 year duration for limitations.

Look at that imbecile wanker Bernie Goetz - he was home free after plugging those bastards on the train. He was regarded as a hero by most of the city because he stood up to the vermin and defended himself. Then to stupid donk went shooting his big SwissMiss mouth off to a neighbor and that was the end of that. What an idiot. Help. Leave. Be silent, preferably forever. Anything less than this and you deserve every pain you suffer for sheer stupidity.


Look at the lifeguard in California who lost his job for saving the drowning boy - hell, he even got hit with the hospital bill.

Yes, well California is the most stupid place in the entire universe, bar none.


Society is fucked.

You have a gift for understatement.

Anti Federalist
12-07-2012, 07:53 PM
Look at that imbecile wanker Bernie Goetz - he was home free after plugging those bastards on the train. He was regarded as a hero by most of the city because he stood up to the vermin and defended himself. Then to stupid donk went shooting his big SwissMiss mouth off to a neighbor and that was the end of that. What an idiot. Help. Leave. Be silent, preferably forever. Anything less than this and you deserve every pain you suffer for sheer stupidity.

Wow, did that name bring back memories.

What a shit storm that was.

But incidents like that are what I use to grasp at the thinnest reeds of hope that somehow this can be turned around.

It was the Bernie Goetz case that was instrumental in helping the activists in Florida get the first in the nation CCW law passed.

And we see what happened from there.

Nirvikalpa
12-08-2012, 12:02 AM
Are you saying the guy lived?



That is why you get out of there IMMEDIATELY after doing what you do. You get your ass home and you SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT for at least the 7 year duration for limitations.

Look at that imbecile wanker Bernie Goetz - he was home free after plugging those bastards on the train. He was regarded as a hero by most of the city because he stood up to the vermin and defended himself. Then to stupid donk went shooting his big SwissMiss mouth off to a neighbor and that was the end of that. What an idiot. Help. Leave. Be silent, preferably forever. Anything less than this and you deserve every pain you suffer for sheer stupidity.



Yes, well California is the most stupid place in the entire universe, bar none.



You have a gift for understatement.

I could do that without doing anything to help someone...


Then again, we had a case once where I and another crew member(an EMT from Cincinnati), did CPR on a middle aged man that had "the big one" heart attack while on a charter boat 30 miles off shore. Because the other two available coasties were too busy with their puppy dog faces and feeling sorry for the guy and throwing up because of the weather and the sights and sounds -and smells- of doing CPR on someone for real to help, this kid and I had to swap out doing CPR for almost 2 hours on the trip back to the dock. We were not "authorized" to pronounce someone dead, which meant we had to keep going until told to stop by an EMT or a Dr, or too exhausted to continue. Some people, even after all of that training, just freeze up and become worthless when its go time. We both knew he was dead already, the AED wouldn't even charge up because it "knew" he was dead as well.

The AED will only work on ventricular fibrillation of the heart or ventricular tachycardia, which occurs infrequently because that time is so short lived and leads to asystole (flat lining). By the time someone flatlines the AED is useless and it's up to chest compressions and breaths to save someone's life.


CPR does a LOT of damage to the body when performed properly, and you can actually lacerate someone's liver if you do it too low on the chest(i.e. not doing it right). I was taught "If you aint crackin' and breakin' ribs-you aint doing it right." I've done it about 10 times on real people, and it's much more violent than what they show in the movies/TV. I couldn't begin to describe the sound and feeling. Its something you never forget, that's for sure. None of those 10 survived.

That crepitus sound of the ribs rubbing together once you break them during CPR is a sound that never leaves your mind once it happens, and never seems to get any easier to hear the more you hear it. I have done CPR 4 times... my last attempt was my first save ever, 3 weeks ago. 94 y.o patient, brought back twice. AED wouldn't shock as patient was already asystole. I felt both elated and extremely guilty at the same time - I know the end of their life will be spent in a hospital, and still to this day I wonder if it was worth it... knowing they'll probably suffer. Anyway, patient has so much fluid in their lungs/chest/pleural cavity that every time I compressed the chest, the fluid was expelling out of the tracheal intubation/laryngoscope and straight onto my gloved hands. Most foul odor I have ever experienced in my life, and if I was ever close to vomiting on a call that was it. Still, when the family of the patient came to the hospital and the daughter had that look in her eye, you know it's worth it.

Henry Rogue
12-08-2012, 07:58 PM
Years ago I had a Foreman who did CPR on his neighbor. The neighbor had a heart attack. The neighbor threw up coffee into my foreman's mouth, but he lived. He told me he could still taste the coffee.:p Regarding the subway incident, I can't believe they're not searching for the guy who pushed him off the platform. It seems murderous to push him off and then not attempt to pull him up.

KingNothing
12-08-2012, 09:52 PM
As a trained first responder and cpr licensed(well, I was), and as someone who's hard-wired to help someone in trouble -- I wouldn't have hesitated at all. Notice I said trained. It takes a lot of repetitiveness and real world experience to "turn off" your natural inclination to freeze when TSHTF around you. I can be remarkably calm in the direst of situations, focusing on what needs to be done at the moment, and oblivious to everything else. But this takes practice, and unfortunately, a lot of indifference.

Also, I've noticed that when everyone's standing around not doing anything to help, its when that one person goes to help that seems to set that spark off in others minds, then they'll jump in, too. I've seen it happen several times.

Then again, we had a case once where I and another crew member(an EMT from Cincinnati), did CPR on a middle aged man that had "the big one" heart attack while on a charter boat 30 miles off shore. Because the other two available coasties were too busy with their puppy dog faces and feeling sorry for the guy and throwing up because of the weather and the sights and sounds -and smells- of doing CPR on someone for real to help, this kid and I had to swap out doing CPR for almost 2 hours on the trip back to the dock. We were not "authorized" to pronounce someone dead, which meant we had to keep going until told to stop by an EMT or a Dr, or too exhausted to continue. Some people, even after all of that training, just freeze up and become worthless when its go time. We both knew he was dead already, the AED wouldn't even charge up because it "knew" he was dead as well.

Someone else asked if you can be sued for not helping, well of course you can, this is America, aint it? ;)

CPR does a LOT of damage to the body when performed properly, and you can actually lacerate someone's liver if you do it too low on the chest(i.e. not doing it right). I was taught "If you aint crackin' and breakin' ribs-you aint doing it right." I've done it about 10 times on real people, and it's much more violent than what they show in the movies/TV. I couldn't begin to describe the sound and feeling. Its something you never forget, that's for sure. None of those 10 survived. That also, is only in the movies. I can see why some would be hesitant to perform it on someone, especially when you know the damage it can do, and how little of a chance the person has to survive either way.

Went a little o/t there, but I was just trying to say that those questioning what others would do(KingNothing to AF), have no idea what others would do, and I think it's kinda of shitty to even offer you're opinion on what others would do when you don't even know them. Its pretty obvious what KingNothing would have done, and that's nothing. Fitting name.


Great post until the end. AF is just a loud mouth wanna-be hero. No one can say what they would or wouldn't do in the situation. For Christ sake, we are assuming we would have been close enough to actually get there in time and that we were paying attention to that ordeal. There are too many unknowns to instantly christen yourself a hero and speak definitively that you'd have saved the day, as AF has claimed.

pacelli
12-08-2012, 10:39 PM
I don't see the subway train driver being discussed, don't these incidents usually involve sleeping or some other form of impairment? Anything on the driver and his or her level of alertness?

Nirvikalpa
12-09-2012, 12:06 AM
I don't see the subway train driver being discussed, don't these incidents usually involve sleeping or some other form of impairment? Anything on the driver and his or her level of alertness?

The conductor was absolutely distraught after the incident occurred - according to local sources, he was both crying and had to be transported to the hospital for trauma. I've also heard that the train only came 3/4 into the station - so the conductor did try to stop.


The train’s operator was taken from the station in a wheelchair, wearing an oxygen mask and was treated for shock.


Today the driver of the subway train which ran over Mr Han spoke of his desperate attempts to slam on the emergency breaks.
Motorman Terrence Legree said he saw Mr Han, but he could not stop the train before it crushed him.
'I saw the guy, and I did what I was trained to do,' he said. 'You’re hopeful you’re going to stop, but you don’t have control of the train at that point.'
Mr Legree said he rushed out of his control booth and tried to help the man wedged between the subway car and the platform.

Also just read an article that a resident (doctor) was on the station platform (all the way down) and she and a security guard did chest compressions to try and save Han. Article also states the ambulance was sitting for 10-15minutes outside the station, so it seems likely they were doing CPR.

Ugh, so many conflicting stories.


Dr Laura Kaplan, 27, a second-year resident at Beth Israel Medical Center, told how people were shouting and yelling when the tragedy happened but were running in the other direction.
After Mr Han was fatally struck by the train, she said she used her stethoscope and heard what she thought were heart sounds, but he never took a breath.
Another passenger reported seeing blood coming from Mr Han's mouth and said it had been impossible to give him CPR.

... she is a second-year resident and heard what she thought were heart sounds?

And weirder:


Mrs Han, who has a college-age daughter, was said to be shocked and distraught as she left the couple's red-brick, low-rise home in Queens last night. A pair of men's trainers sat discarded in the front garden.
His wife said she had argued with her husband, who had been drinking, before he left the house at around 11am and headed into Manhattan.
She said she tried calling him several times in an attempt to calm him down but he did not pick up her calls. One witness claimed Mr Han had been the aggressor and authorities reportedly found a bottle of vodka on his body afterward.


'I'd say the guy was on the rails for between 30 and 45 seconds trying to get up before he was hit.


“It was terrifying, but you run on adrenaline,” Kaplan told The Post. “There was no pulse, never, no reflexes.”

“I heard what I thought were heart sounds,” she added. “We started compressions, which is half of CPR. We were unable to perform rescue breathing [the other half of CPR] because there was blood coming out of his mouth. He wasn’t in the right position [for full CPR] and there was just no way to get him out of there.

I'm done. I just learned a whole bunch of nothing.

kcchiefs6465
12-09-2012, 12:35 AM
Years ago I had a Foreman who did CPR on his neighbor. The neighbor had a heart attack. The neighbor threw up coffee into my foreman's mouth, but he lived. He told me he could still taste the coffee.:p Regarding the subway incident, I can't believe they're not searching for the guy who pushed him off the platform. It seems murderous to push him off and then not attempt to pull him up.
Link? I hadn't heard they aren't searching for the man who pushed him. Voluntary manslaughter is surely being sought against him.

Brian4Liberty
12-09-2012, 12:44 AM
True recent story:

Heard a woman crying for help. Went over to find an old woman laying in the bushes. Asked her what happened, she said she fell and hit her head. I pulled her up into a sitting position. Asked her if she lost consciousness, she was not sure. Asked her if she could feel her arms and legs. She said yes. She said the arm she fell on was broken. At that point, I thought it best to leave her seated in the bushes and ask if she wanted an ambulance. She was not sure. She wanted me to lift her out of the bushes. I hesitated due to legal concerns. A postman came walking by at the moment, and asked what was happening. She told him, and he asked if she wanted an ambulance. She said she wanted help up. The postman then said several times, "do you give us permission to lift you". She said yes. We lifted her up, I made sure that she could keep herself up before letting go of her. She was able to walk away, and go to the hospital on her own.

What's the point? As rescuers, both myself and the postman were very conscious of the fact that we might get sued for anything we might do to help this person. Thank the ambulance chasing lawyers for this sad state of affairs.

AGRP
12-09-2012, 12:55 AM
Try building a giant death trap machine yourself to move passengers around and you will be shut down by the city and lawyers before you can open for business.

devil21
12-09-2012, 02:24 AM
I havent followed this story at all. Did he work for Goldman? Whether I feel any sympathy probably revolves around what duties exactly that man performed in NYC.

Harsh but yeah...just sayin.

kcchiefs6465
12-09-2012, 02:30 AM
True recent story:

Heard a woman crying for help. Went over to find an old woman laying in the bushes. Asked her what happened, she said she fell and hit her head. I pulled her up into a sitting position. Asked her if she lost consciousness, she was not sure. Asked her if she could feel her arms and legs. She said yes. She said the arm she fell on was broken. At that point, I thought it best to leave her seated in the bushes and ask if she wanted an ambulance. She was not sure. She wanted me to lift her out of the bushes. I hesitated due to legal concerns. A postman came walking by at the moment, and asked what was happening. She told him, and he asked if she wanted an ambulance. She said she wanted help up. The postman then said several times, "do you give us permission to lift you". She said yes. We lifted her up, I made sure that she could keep herself up before letting go of her. She was able to walk away, and go to the hospital on her own.

What's the point? As rescuers, both myself and the postman were very conscious of the fact that we might get sued for anything we might do to help this person. Thank the ambulance chasing lawyers for this sad state of affairs.
There are many statutes that have been written for this very reason. You cannot be sued for trying to help someone. Even if that results in more injuries. I am not sure of the specifics of the law in regards to trained responders while they are off duty but I do know that the average person is not liable if in the event of helping a car accident victim for example they inadvertently cause more injuries. When you are by yourself it is tricky. The person could claim that they specifically told you not to move them and upon moving them you hurt their back or whatever. These types of incidents are perpetrated by parasitic scum who have no moral qualms stealing money from a person who tried to help from the goodness of their heart. Very few and far between I would imagine.. and hope. Unless the person is in immediate danger of death it is probably a smart idea to stay with the person and comfort them/stop bleeding if possible and wait for first responders

Henry Rogue
12-09-2012, 10:45 AM
Link? I hadn't heard they aren't searching for the man who pushed him. Voluntary manslaughter is surely being sought against him.I should of been clearer. I wasn't claiming they weren't searching for him. I just hadn't read that they were and found that strange. I wonder if the photographer got a picture of him.

Nirvikalpa
12-09-2012, 11:16 AM
Link? I hadn't heard they aren't searching for the man who pushed him. Voluntary manslaughter is surely being sought against him.

He indicted himself.

Nirvikalpa
12-09-2012, 11:24 AM
True recent story:

Heard a woman crying for help. Went over to find an old woman laying in the bushes. Asked her what happened, she said she fell and hit her head. I pulled her up into a sitting position. Asked her if she lost consciousness, she was not sure. Asked her if she could feel her arms and legs. She said yes. She said the arm she fell on was broken. At that point, I thought it best to leave her seated in the bushes and ask if she wanted an ambulance. She was not sure. She wanted me to lift her out of the bushes. I hesitated due to legal concerns. A postman came walking by at the moment, and asked what was happening. She told him, and he asked if she wanted an ambulance. She said she wanted help up. The postman then said several times, "do you give us permission to lift you". She said yes. We lifted her up, I made sure that she could keep herself up before letting go of her. She was able to walk away, and go to the hospital on her own.

What's the point? As rescuers, both myself and the postman were very conscious of the fact that we might get sued for anything we might do to help this person. Thank the ambulance chasing lawyers for this sad state of affairs.

Man, you were better than me. The second she said she fell and hit her head, didn't know if she had LOC (loss of consciousness), broke her arm, and wanted to get up I wouldn't have helped her up, but told her to remain still and to try not to move - that moving could further injure her. Anything with the head/neck freaks me out. She fell and hit her head, and at that point with age and the impact... anything further she might say might not be the truth. For all you knew, she did lose consciousness, she hurt her back/neck, may have broke her hip... I would have called the ambulance.

Sticky situation. The good thing is, you both could defend each other's words/actions. If it was just one person... that's begging for a lawsuit.

RockEnds
12-09-2012, 12:02 PM
True recent story:

Heard a woman crying for help. Went over to find an old woman laying in the bushes. Asked her what happened, she said she fell and hit her head. I pulled her up into a sitting position. Asked her if she lost consciousness, she was not sure. Asked her if she could feel her arms and legs. She said yes. She said the arm she fell on was broken. At that point, I thought it best to leave her seated in the bushes and ask if she wanted an ambulance. She was not sure. She wanted me to lift her out of the bushes. I hesitated due to legal concerns. A postman came walking by at the moment, and asked what was happening. She told him, and he asked if she wanted an ambulance. She said she wanted help up. The postman then said several times, "do you give us permission to lift you". She said yes. We lifted her up, I made sure that she could keep herself up before letting go of her. She was able to walk away, and go to the hospital on her own.

What's the point? As rescuers, both myself and the postman were very conscious of the fact that we might get sued for anything we might do to help this person. Thank the ambulance chasing lawyers for this sad state of affairs.

We had something similar happen a few years back. One of my boys was with me in the car. We were pulling up to a red light as an old woman fell backwards on the sidewalk. My son jumped right out of the car, but he had a freshly broken back and was in a back brace. He couldn't have lifted her even if he'd wanted. He had a 50% compression fracture. He held her hand and talked to her while I found a parking spot. By the time I did that, someone else had come along and lifted her. That person walked her up to her door which was right beside where she fell. That guy left pretty quickly. I stayed with the old woman along with another woman had come along. The woman who fell didn't want an ambulance, and it didn't look to me as if she had hit her head, but she didn't know her son's name. She was definitely disoriented, maybe from the fall or maybe from Alzheimer's or something. I didn't want to force her into an ambulance if I could contact her family. I didn't know what kind of insurance she has or anything about her situation. But she needed to go to the hospital, and I didn't want to transport her myself. Fortunately, it didn't take long to find a list of numbers by her phone. We got ahold of her son, and he called the ambulance. Or maybe he told me to call them. I can't remember now. The other lady and I stayed until the ambulance arrived. It didn't take long--just a few minutes. She ended up in the nursing home. :(