Marine pioneering effort to move women into combat

[Origanalist]

http://col.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/40/8FE896F3B8763A1776A1DA31BD19C8_h366_w650_m6_lfalse .jpg


Brandy Soublet is one of 45 female Marines assigned this summer to 19 all-male combat battalions.



SAN DIEGO — Marine 1st Lt. Brandy Soublet is about as far from the war front as possible at her desk in the California desert, but she's on the front lines of an experiment that could one day put women as close to combat as their male peers.

The Penfield, N.Y. woman is one of 45 female Marines assigned this summer to 19 all-male combat battalions. The Defense Department in the past year has opened thousands of combat positions to women to slowly integrate them and gauge the impact such a social change would have on the military's ability to fight wars.

No branch is likely to feel that change more than the Marine Corps.

The small, tight-knit force is the most male of the armed services and prides itself on having the toughest and most aggressive warriors. The Corps historically has higher casualty rates because it is considered to be the "tip of the spear," or the first to respond to conflicts. It also was among the last military branches to open its doors to women, forming the first female Corps in 1943, according to the Women's Memorial in Washington D.C.

But changing times are challenging the traditions of the force, long likened to a brotherhood.

Modern warfare has put women in combat like never before over the past decade, even though a 1994 policy bars them from being assigned to ground combat units below the brigade level, which were considered too dangerous since they are often smaller and closer to combat for longer periods.

Already under pressure to provide the same opportunities for women, the Defense Department was hit Tuesday with a second lawsuit by female service members — including two Marines — charging that the gender barriers unfairly block them from promotions open to men in combat.

The lawsuits are intended to accelerate the military's slow march toward lifting the ban that plaintiffs allege has barred women from 238,000 positions.

Defense officials say they recently opened 14,500 jobs to women, and they need to move cautiously to ensure the change will not disrupt wartime operations. Soublet and the other 44 women are part of the quiet, slow transformation. Women make up about 7 percent of the Marine Corps compared to about 14 percent overall among the military's 1.4 million active military personnel.

She said some Marines initially eyed her pioneering presence in the all-male battalion with skepticism.

"The way that I would describe it to friends and family was it was kind of like I showed up to work in a costume," the 25-year-old logistics officer said in a phone interview from Twenty-Nine Palms, a remote desert base east of San Diego. "They stared a little bit but after a while it wasn't like that anymore."

That experience may play out on bases and boats worldwide as the Pentagon levels the battlefield.

The Corps earlier this year opened its grueling infantry officer training school to female Marines and surveyed 53,000 of its troops with an anonymous online questionnaire about the impact of erasing gender barriers. Survey results are expected to be released soon after review by the defense secretary.

Only two female Marines volunteered for the 13-week infantry training course at Quantico, Va., and both failed to complete it this fall. No women have volunteered so far for the next course offered in January, officials said.

Soublet said she was nervous she would feel unwelcome in the combat engineer battalion.

Six months into her historic assignment, she said she has been treated equally.

"I have heard, you know, whisperings, like 'Hey, before you got here we decided to maybe take down some pictures and clean up our language a little bit,' but other than that, they haven't really expressed anything to me," said Soublet, who will remain two years in her battalion and is expected to deploy with them to Afghanistan this spring.

The Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James F. Amos said he met with the top leaders of the 19 battalions and told them to establish the proper command climate. The early steps of assigning females to artillery, tank, combat engineer and other all-male battalions have been successful, but there may be some anxiety if women join infantry, Amos said.

Camp Pendleton combat Marine Carlos Laguna, who left the Corps in 2011, agreed.

"The screams of women, they have a big psychological effect on men. A woman just has a different pitch," said Laguna, who suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder after two tours in Iraq. "If we're in a firefight and a woman is shot or lost her arm, male Marines like me would want to stop and help. It's our nature to help women."

The survey addressed those concerns, asking males if they would be distracted or "feel obligated to protect female Marines." It also asked whether women would be limited because of pregnancy or personal issues.

Female Marines were asked if they would feel pressured to suppress their femininity.

Former Marine Capt. Kristen Kavanaugh, who runs The Military Acceptance Project, a San Diego-based organization promoting equality in the services, found those questions offensive.

"I don't think women who signed up to give their life for their country are worried about the appearance of their femininity," she said.

Former Camp Pendleton Marine Capt. Anu Bhagwati was only the second woman to complete a martial arts instructor training school, earning a black belt in close combat techniques. But she said years of discrimination caused her to quit in 2004.

"I learned early on that the Marine Corps will expect you to fail if you are a woman," said the head of the Service Women's Action Network, which helped the women file the lawsuit. "I faced so much discrimination and sexual harassment that it made me wonder why I was serving."

Soublet said in her three years in the Corps she has found her fellow Marines to be respectful and professional.

"This isn't a big deal," she said. "We're Marines, we're here to do a job and it doesn't matter what our gender is."

http://news.msn.com/us/marine-pioneering-effort-to-move-women-into-combat

[PaulConventionWV]

This must really make liberals happy. All people suffer and dying equally... isn't that the American dream?

[Origanalist]

Hey, women can kill people too.

[matt0611]

This must really make liberals happy. All people suffer and dying equally... isn't that the American dream?

Exactly. Yay for equality. Now we can have even more grunts fighting in our destructive wars. We'll just open up the eligibility of the other half of the population to make it even easier for them.

[thoughtomator]

Hey, women can kill people too.

Think of the nagging casualties alone!

[Origanalist]

Why stop there? Let's train Granny to operate armed drones and the younguns to manufacture ammunition.

[seyferjm]

How will they get the kitchens to the frontlines?! :confused:

[youngbuck]

It's just another symptom of a devolving society... I'm all for gender equality, but there are common sense gender roles, and women don't belong on the front lines fighting wars.

[Pauls' Revere]

It's just another symptom of a devolving society... I'm all for gender equality, but there are common sense gender roles, and women don't belong on the front lines fighting wars.

Tell that to the Russians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipers_of_the_Soviet_Union

Snipers of the Soviet Union played an important role mainly on the Eastern Front of World War II, apart from other preceding and subsequent conflicts. In World War II, Soviet snipers used the 7.62x54R rifle cartridge with light, heavy, armour-piercing (B-30), armour-piercing-and-incendiary (B-32), zeroing-and-incendiary (P3), and tracer bullets. Most Soviet WWII snipers carried a combat load of 120 rifle cartridges in the field.[2] Unlike the militaries of other nations, these snipers could be men or women. In 1943, there were over 2,000 women functioning in this role.[3]


and helped defend St. Petersburg from the Nazi's

[James Madison]

Tell that to the Russians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipers_of_the_Soviet_Union

Snipers of the Soviet Union played an important role mainly on the Eastern Front of World War II, apart from other preceding and subsequent conflicts. In World War II, Soviet snipers used the 7.62x54R rifle cartridge with light, heavy, armour-piercing (B-30), armour-piercing-and-incendiary (B-32), zeroing-and-incendiary (P3), and tracer bullets. Most Soviet WWII snipers carried a combat load of 120 rifle cartridges in the field.[2] Unlike the militaries of other nations, these snipers could be men or women. In 1943, there were over 2,000 women functioning in this role.[3]


and helped defend St. Petersburg from the Nazi's

Buck is correct on this one. Cultures that expose their women to high-risk combat scenarios greatly jeopardize their ability to repopulate should large-scale war breakout. Males, for the most part, are expendable. Women are somewhat expendable now due to massive population growth over the millenia, but any short-term gains from women being in combat are far out matched by its long-term dangers.

[Anti Federalist]

And where is the Soviet Union today?

Of course, that is to be expected in a Marxist authoritarian society.

youngbuck is right, this is just signpost along the road of decaying, sick and dying society.

Why not give 10 year old kids rifles as well?


Tell that to the Russians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipers_of_the_Soviet_Union

Snipers of the Soviet Union played an important role mainly on the Eastern Front of World War II, apart from other preceding and subsequent conflicts. In World War II, Soviet snipers used the 7.62x54R rifle cartridge with light, heavy, armour-piercing (B-30), armour-piercing-and-incendiary (B-32), zeroing-and-incendiary (P3), and tracer bullets. Most Soviet WWII snipers carried a combat load of 120 rifle cartridges in the field.[2] Unlike the militaries of other nations, these snipers could be men or women. In 1943, there were over 2,000 women functioning in this role.[3]


and helped defend St. Petersburg from the Nazi's

[Anti Federalist]

Buck is correct on this one. Cultures that expose their women to high-risk combat scenarios greatly jeopardize their ability to repopulate should large-scale war breakout. Males, for the most part, are expendable. Women are somewhat expendable now due to massive population growth over the millenia, but any short-term gains from women being in combat are far out matched by its long-term dangers.

Yah, and you know what else, it's just flat out wrong, sending some 19 y/o girl off to get her guts scattered all over some worthless desert.

And some women wonder why chivalry and male honor is dead?

[Anti Federalist]

Why stop there? Let's train Granny to operate armed drones and the younguns to manufacture ammunition.

Well, why the hell not?

We already got convicts making missile parts.

[specsaregood]

Why not give 10 year old kids rifles as well?

Uhm, I had a rifle around that age.

[idiom]

About time.


Buck is correct on this one. Cultures that expose their women to high-risk combat scenarios greatly jeopardize their ability to repopulate should large-scale war breakout. Males, for the most part, are expendable. Women are somewhat expendable now due to massive population growth over the millenia, but any short-term gains from women being in combat are far out matched by its long-term dangers.

Tell it to post-WW1 France.

[Pauls' Revere]

And where is the Soviet Union today?

Of course, that is to be expected in a Marxist authoritarian society.

youngbuck is right, this is just signpost along the road of decaying, sick and dying society.

Why not give 10 year old kids rifles as well?

I see your point. Hitler Youth or for that matter Jihadist kids strapped with bombs is ridiculous. However, were talking about a voluntary force versus a conscripted one.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

keeping women off the frontlines isn't about disrespect, it's about protecting women. I doubt she would want to be on the frontlines in a all-out war. Frontlines in this war is just patrolling streets.

[coastie]

I would surmise there's a psychological nightmare in the works...seeing a woman blown to bits probably won't bode well in the deepest parts of the male animal psyche. Toss in the fact that relationships WILL blossom out of this-and now you've got a Marine who just watched their girlfriend/boyfriend die. I'm pretty sure you don't want someone with that on their mind watching your six.


Fuckin a man. I really wish sometimes I was 90 years old with not much time left on this earth, I really do.

[coastie]

keeping women off the frontlines isn't about disrespect, it's about protecting women. I doubt she would want to be on the frontlines in a all-out war. Frontlines in this war is just patrolling streets.

I agree, but...there aren't very many "streets" in Afghanistan, mostly mountains and wide open fields. Look on youtube for 20 seconds and you'll find all kinds of videos of ambushes in the wide open with nowhere to go for cover. Marijuana and poppy fields don't make for very good cover, I imagine.

[Pauls' Revere]

So, we can let homosexuals serve but not women? wtf?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

So, we can let homosexuals serve but not women? wtf?No, it's just some dumb political correctness crap that is destroying any moral value left in the country, just like how feminism brought about lower wages and for most Americans, both parents working are now a necessity.

[idiom]

If it can vote it can fight for its vote.

Women don't fight in the Congo. They just raped by a different group of soldiers each week.

Women are just as responsible for their liberty as the rest of us.

[Origanalist]

If it can vote it can fight for its vote.

Women don't fight in the Congo. They just raped by a different group of soldiers each week.

Women are just as responsible for their liberty as the rest of us.

? :confused:

[Origanalist]

Tell that to the Russians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipers_of_the_Soviet_Union

Snipers of the Soviet Union played an important role mainly on the Eastern Front of World War II, apart from other preceding and subsequent conflicts. In World War II, Soviet snipers used the 7.62x54R rifle cartridge with light, heavy, armour-piercing (B-30), armour-piercing-and-incendiary (B-32), zeroing-and-incendiary (P3), and tracer bullets. Most Soviet WWII snipers carried a combat load of 120 rifle cartridges in the field.[2] Unlike the militaries of other nations, these snipers could be men or women. In 1943, there were over 2,000 women functioning in this role.[3]


and helped defend St. Petersburg from the Nazi's

Where is our Eastern front? Or our invading Nazi's? The only invading force I see is the U S Government.

[nobody's_hero]

Why stop there? Let's train Granny to operate armed drones and the younguns to manufacture ammunition.

Oh no. Granny has enough trouble trying to operate scooters in wal-mart.

EDIT: On second thought . . .

[awake]

Why would any person in their right mind want to go off to another part of the world to kill and destroy people they would probable get along with quite well? The egalitarian movement is populated by people who still think there is a Never Never land. Ironically, we should never never go where they want to go.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Buck is correct on this one. Cultures that expose their women to high-risk combat scenarios greatly jeopardize their ability to repopulate should large-scale war breakout.


They're also spineless dickheads.



Uhm, I had a rifle around that age.


There's a difference between having a rifle at home, and being expected to go fight wars all over the world.

[klamath]

I have served with women in combat. I have extreme respect for many of those that I served with. I never, thank God, saw any of them killed, captured or tortured. Call me whatever but something deep in my soul cannot bare the thought of them getting caught tortured and killed. Somewhere in this man's genes is an instinct to protect women for the survivial of the species. In this modern day where evolution is the revered science why would man evolve to be the stronger physical sex?
I know I am a dying breed but I fear the day that women are deemed fit for all heavy combat and drafted for that duty as they most surely will be.

[tod evans]

Women as a gender are much more ruthless than men..

I'm pretty indifferent about combat duty, my gut says no but my head says yes..

[brooks009]

Most of these comments seem sexist to me. I don't want to see anyone dying in war whether they are male or female. Maybe if we had females on the front lines we would be less willing to go to war (though I doubt it). Seems tragic you don't value male lives as much as females.

[Danan]

It's just another symptom of a devolving society... I'm all for gender equality, but there are common sense gender roles, and women don't belong on the front lines fighting wars.

Neither do men.

[jmdrake]

I see your point. Hitler Youth or for that matter Jihadist kids strapped with bombs is ridiculous. However, were talking about a voluntary force versus a conscripted one.

We're also talking about defensive wars versus offensive ones. When women were killing Nazis in defense of Stalingrad they were literally defending their homes. And Hitler Youth only saw front line action when the front line became Germany itself. Also the stories of child suicide bombers are largely myth. The youngest suicide bomber on record was 16. Most are over the age of 18. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Pales tinian_conflict) And again, we're talking about people fighting either in their homeland or the area they believe to be their homeland.

If this country is ever overrun either by external or internal forces seeking to establish tyranny, you will see women on the front line of combat by default. It's better than sitting around waiting to be raped and/or killed.

[jmdrake]

Where is our Eastern front? Or our invading Nazi's? The only invading force I see is the U S Government.

+rep

[klamath]

I will say that I don't think the military should stop women that voluntarily wants to serve in frontline combat I just don't want our society to accept sending all women to the front lines as the norm.
However those women that want to serve frontline they need to be required to pass the same physical standards as the male combat soldiers. Many of the women that are pushing for this complain that being barred from combat assignments is hampering their promotions. Physical fitness scores play a very big part in promotions and the failure to make minimum scores will kill a military career entirely. For women that volunteer for combat the scores should be equal with men. For an example a career ending 59 out of 100 points for a male in the 2 mile run is 95 out of 100 points for a female a very big deal in getting promoted.
In otherwords we are getting female NCO's promoted over male NCO's for performing actually less than the male.

[James Madison]

About time.



Tell it to post-WW1 France.

Tell them what?

[dinosaur]

Why would any person in their right mind want to go off to another part of the world to kill and destroy people they would probable get along with quite well? The egalitarian movement is populated by people who still think there is a Never Never land. Ironically, we should never never go where they want to go.

I don't think that there is really much of a femminism movement left at all, they are the older generation. The government isn't doing this to us based on mass pressure from women, it is doing it because it wants to.

[TheTexan]

You know a war is meaningless when they start talking about dumb shit like this.

But whatever. If 19 y/o girls want to go off and get their limbs blown off so that they can perpetuate a needless war... who am I to say they can't...

[dinosaur]

You know a war is meaningless when they start talking about dumb shit like this.

But whatever. If 19 y/o girls want to go off and get their limbs blown off so that they can perpetuate a needless war... who am I to say they can't...

Just wait until they start drafting women. It is not going to be a voluntary thing for most of them in the future.

[klamath]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY
Just wait until they start drafting women. It is not going to be a voluntary thing for most of them in the future. Yes once it is established it will be selective service and draft for women then the song will be "I was only a 19 year old girl"

[Matt Collins]

The issue isn't whether some females are capable of combat, many certianly are. The problem is that female presence changes the atmosphere of the males in the group.

[angelatc]

Women as a gender are much more ruthless than men..

I'm pretty indifferent about combat duty, my gut says no but my head says yes..

Me too. I'm torn, because I like to be taken care of. I have two boys and a husband. I can't remember the last time I carried anything heavy. Not because I can't, but because I don't have to.

But on the other hand, I don't need men to take care of me. I have no doubt that I could protect myself and my property just fine. But women are different. I can't imagine some of my girly-girl friends being told they needed to crawl though mud.

But again, back to that first hand - you guys are saying that women shouldn't be in combat because hearing a feminine shout of pain would be too upsetting for the man? Uh.....

The best idea is to stop the damned wars. If the enemy invades us, there will be enough killing for everybody.

[angelatc]

Just wait until they start drafting women. It is not going to be a voluntary thing for most of them in the future.

On the bright side, we'll be able to watch the abortion rate sink like a stone.

[AFPVet]

Well, in the Air Force, women are already members of Security Forces (military police, security, and counter sniper). There was even one SF girl who took out an insurgent with a .50 at a pretty good distance.

[SeanTX]

You know a war is meaningless when they start talking about dumb shit like this.



Yes, if we were in a war like WW2/Vietnam/Korea with mass casualties this subject wouldn't even come up, at least until the war was over.

And serving in a combat MOS is no great prize -- unless you are Special Operations (Navy SEAL, Delta, etc) it doesn't even count for much anyway.

You won't ever see Glenn Beck or Tom Clancy or any of the other Neocon chickenhawks hanging around with regular old grunts or even mentioning them -- you have to be one of the "elite" special operator types to be good enough hang out with them (even though they never served at all themselves).

[Anti Federalist]

Uhm, I had a rifle around that age.

You know what I mean...

[Anti Federalist]

I see your point. Hitler Youth or for that matter Jihadist kids strapped with bombs is ridiculous. However, were talking about a voluntary force versus a conscripted one.

Not to belabor the point, but, that voluntary force will get thrown in the woods the second we get dragged into fighting a "real" war again against a real adversary.

[heavenlyboy34]

Tell that to the Russians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipers_of_the_Soviet_Union

Snipers of the Soviet Union played an important role mainly on the Eastern Front of World War II, apart from other preceding and subsequent conflicts. In World War II, Soviet snipers used the 7.62x54R rifle cartridge with light, heavy, armour-piercing (B-30), armour-piercing-and-incendiary (B-32), zeroing-and-incendiary (P3), and tracer bullets. Most Soviet WWII snipers carried a combat load of 120 rifle cartridges in the field.[2] Unlike the militaries of other nations, these snipers could be men or women. In 1943, there were over 2,000 women functioning in this role.[3]


and helped defend St. Petersburg from the Nazi's
The USSR didn't have as much leisure to choose like we do. They weren't separated from Germany by an ocean. If it had been possible, it's most likely the women would've stayed home like they did during the war against the Russo-Franco war against Napoleon.

[alucard13mmfmj]

Female will have to understand there are risks like...

Sexual Harassment/rape from fellow soldiers
Sexual Harassment/rape from being captured by enemy
Seeing boyfriend blown up (even though its probably against protocol to fraternize with others, you know it will happen)

[idiom]

Tell them what?

France had very low birth rates post WW1, despite not lacking in women folk.

[AFPVet]

Female will have to understand there are risks like...

Sexual Harassment/rape from fellow soldiers
Sexual Harassment/rape from being captured by enemy
Seeing boyfriend blown up (even though its probably against protocol to fraternize with others, you know it will happen)

This happens more than people realize. Although it's against the UCMJ to fraternize with commissioned or warrant officers, we had a few people on the same flight who engaged in relationships. Our leadership just split them up when we went to work lol.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm13423.htm

[smhbbag]

I am 5'10, 210lbs, and 20% body fat.

And I am probably more prepared for a combat unit right now than the most elite female Marines. I can do 5 pull-ups, which puts me near the very best of female Marines. And I'm doing it while lifting 70-90 more pounds over the bar than they do.

My bones are the bones of a man, which means those women have 3-5 times the risk of a stress fracture under heavy load than I do. My overall risk of stress injury is lower because my muscles, ligaments, and tendons have been carrying a woman's full combat load (body weight + gear) for my entire life just as daily living. My hands, back, neck, knees, hips, and ankles are stronger.

I am not exceptional, and could probably barely pass the Marine PFT right now. But I could drag or carry a 200lb wounded soldier.

A woman in battle dress strikes me the same as a man in a skirt. Both should be laughed at, pitied, or scorned. Unfortunately, we now take them both seriously.

[smhbbag]

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

Combat units are groups of pack mules that occasionally take a break to fight. Women are not built to be pack mules.

[idiom]

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

Combat units are groups of pack mules that occasionally take a break to fight. Women are not built to be pack mules.

http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/art-print/andrew-parkinson-a-women-carrying-a-heavy-load-across-a-bridge-kalopani-annapurna-circuit-nepal_i-G-27-2751-515TD00Z.jpg

http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.9340610.7919/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg

http://www.fredhoogervorst.com/oni.app/local/upload/14321.jpg

http://www.trust.org/contentAsset/resize-image/e9d97295-467f-4335-b45d-f8555924b0d9/photowide/?w=460&h=318&vn=201207201222

Get over yourself.

[smhbbag]

Get over yourself.

I knew someone was going to bring out these irrelevant pictures. What is absent is any data regarding their rates of physical problems from such work, especially compared to men who do similar things. We have piles and piles of data from our armed forces, and they show exactly what I'm saying.

[Anti Federalist]

And this is the society we wish to build?

A 30 year life span, hauling bricks on your head?

Certainly that is what the global government/NWO/Agenda 21 crowd wishes for us.


http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/art-print/andrew-parkinson-a-women-carrying-a-heavy-load-across-a-bridge-kalopani-annapurna-circuit-nepal_i-G-27-2751-515TD00Z.jpg

http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.9340610.7919/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg

http://www.fredhoogervorst.com/oni.app/local/upload/14321.jpg

http://www.trust.org/contentAsset/resize-image/e9d97295-467f-4335-b45d-f8555924b0d9/photowide/?w=460&h=318&vn=201207201222

Get over yourself.

[idiom]

Oh, yes we should be restricting other peoples options in life for their own good.

Which forum am I even on?

[Anti Federalist]

Oh, yes we should be restricting other peoples options in life for their own good.

Which forum am I even on?

LOL - But I thought an employer could set whatever restrictions they wished to place on employees?

The MIC is one of the biggest employers around.

They don't have the right to choose which employees they wish to hire?

That said, come for my daughter in a draft, and there will be a fight.

[aGameOfThrones]

LOL - But I thought an employer could set whatever restrictions they wished to place on employees?

The MIC is one of the biggest employers around.

They don't have the right to choose which employees they wish to hire?

That said, come for my daughter in a draft, and there will be a fight.

She's not yours, she belongs to the STATE you glorified babysitter!

[carclinic]

One small step for woMAN

One giant leap for porno

[idiom]

So... women are allowed to defend themselves with guns... unless they are being paid to do it, in which case only men are good enough?

[carclinic]

So... women are allowed to defend themselves with guns... unless they are being paid to do it, in which case only men are good enough?

Women can't physically do what men do. I wouldn't trust my life to a woman in a combat situation as much as a man any more than I would expect a woman to be able to work 70 to 80 hours a week in my repair shop on cars. Women don't have the mental nor physical stamina.


Yet, they have much more patience when it comes to kids. Maybe it's God's way of telling us something.


I hate it that in our ass backwards society, being a good mother is somehow not as "honorable" as working a job. I think mothers have the most important job in the world, for the sake of societal stability and posterity.

[TheTexan]

One small step for woMAN

One giant leap for porno

http://img.izismile.com//img/img3/20101112/640/girls_and_guns.jpg

[aGameOfThrones]

http://img.izismile.com//img/img3/20101112/640/girls_and_guns.jpg

I surrender!

[smhbbag]

Oh, yes we should be restricting other peoples options in life for their own good.

Which forum am I even on?

It's for the good of the unit. Women can't do the job, and if they can, they can't do it for years. That's what we need. They are inherently, structurally incapable of the performance that is necessary. Although there are one-in-a-million (literally) freaks out there, it's not the unit's job to try to find that needle in a haystack just to make your politically correct, "everyone should have the freedom to do whatever they want" panties happy.

[TheTexan]

It's for the good of the unit. Women can't do the job, and if they can, they can't do it for years. That's what we need. They are inherently, structurally incapable of the performance that is necessary. Although there are one-in-a-million (literally) freaks out there, it's not the unit's job to try to find that needle in a haystack just to make your politically correct, "everyone should have the freedom to do whatever they want" panties happy.

They're obviously less qualified... could just pay them less. Though I don't think that'd go over too well lol

[Occam's Banana]

Oh, yes we should be restricting other peoples options in life for their own good.

Which forum am I even on?

Your statement would be much more compelling if the "options" you were referring to did not revolve around being sent to foreign countries to kill people who have done us no harm.

[TheTexan]

Not to be a dick to the very talented female professional billiard players, but women don't even compete at the same level as men in billiards, let alone combat

[dinosaur]

Your statement would be much more compelling if the "options" you were referring to did not revolve around being sent to foreign countries to kill people who have done us no harm.

His statement would be more compelling if he offered other "options" than carrying bricks on our head or getting sent off to war to get raped.

[heavenlyboy34]

Not to be a dick to the very talented female professional billiard players, but women don't even compete at the same level as men in billiards, let alone combat
And in sports (especially martial sports), women aren't allowed to compete with men-even in the same weight class. Their muscle structure and general physical attributes are so different that it can never be a fair match outside of the extremely gifted players. I've trained with female partners in judo before-they go down way easier than their male counterparts. They could never compete in grappling, either. The musculature and type of strength just isn't there.

[angelatc]

And in sports (especially martial sports), women aren't allowed to compete with men-even in the same weight class. Their muscle structure and general physical attributes are so different that it can never be a fair match outside of the extremely gifted players. I've trained with female partners in judo before-they go down way easier than their male counterparts. They could never compete in grappling, either. The musculature and type of strength just isn't there.

But billiards is more physics than biceps. Bowling too - why do men perform better? I mean, you can only do so good at bowling.

[TheTexan]

But billiards is more physics than biceps. Bowling too - why do men perform better? I mean, you can only do so good at bowling.

Strength is occasionally a factor in billiards. Which is why men and women usually compete in separate leagues.

[idiom]

Boys are soldiers and women are for making babies.

Really not surprising we poll so poorly among women.


Women can't physically do what men do. I wouldn't trust my life to a woman in a combat situation as much as a man any more than I would expect a woman to be able to work 70 to 80 hours a week in my repair shop on cars. Women don't have the mental nor physical stamina.


Yet, they have much more patience when it comes to kids. Maybe it's God's way of telling us something.

I am not really able to believe people still think this way.

[TheTexan]

Boys are soldiers and women are for making babies.

Really not surprising we poll so poorly among women.

Don't blame us... blame millions of years of evolution...

[amy31416]

I don't give a shit about gender, sexual or political orientation--if you're promoting war, you better get your flabby ass out there and fight it. Let them kill each other.

[carclinic]

Strength is occasionally a factor in billiards. Which is why men and women usually compete in separate leagues.
Unlike in combat.

[Keith and stuff]

I had no problem serving alongside female soldiers. I also had no problems serving in units without female soldiers. At the end of the day, this isn't an issue of major concern. I think the women likely do have a case that this is an issue of the federal government discriminating against women, though. That doesn't seem like a good thing.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't give a shit about gender, sexual or political orientation--if you're promoting war, you better get your flabby ass out there and fight it. Let them kill each other.

Gotta hand it to you here.

I guess it's a moot issue, really.

How much strength or stamina is required to sit behind a drone monitor and unleash Hellfire missiles at people?

[Anti Federalist]

Boys are soldiers and women are for making babies.

Really not surprising we poll so poorly among women.

I am not really able to believe people still think this way.

See, I get so confused...

When, let's say, homosexuality is held out as an unchangeable human trait, that people are "born that way" and have no choice in the matter, everybody is supposed to be accommodating and tolerant, and the entire structure of society is supposed to change to accept that. This is "progressive" and "enlightened".

But then when it is pointed out that the same exact thing applies to say, gender roles, that men and women are built differently, for different roles, that they are "born this way", one suddenly turns into a knuckle dragging troglodyte.

I thought the whole point of "liberty philosophy" was, among other things of course, consistency.

Either people are born a certain way, and employers have a right to base employment decisions based, among other things, on those differences, or they are not.

And if they are not, then people can change, and an entire society should not have to turn itself inside out and upside down, each time some new perversion comes shambling down the pike demanding that it be accepted.

[AFPVet]

I don't give a shit about gender, sexual or political orientation--if you're promoting war, you better get your flabby ass out there and fight it. Let them kill each other.

Yep... exactly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUzd9KyIDrM

[demolama]

There are no front lines anymore. Women are MPs and they see as much fighting as infantry soldiers do. The war is all around them, which is why soldier come home all screwed up. There is no "safe" place to fall back to get some RR because there are no front lines.

[PaulConventionWV]

The issue isn't whether some females are capable of combat, many certianly are. The problem is that female presence changes the atmosphere of the males in the group.

That's only a small part of it to me. Some of us still value old chivalry and think feminism and equality are not all they're hyped up to be. Do women really want to be like us? Never in history can I think of a time when society didn't value "women and children" over their men. Now we're destroying that. Gender roles are not a bad thing. Women bear children, so it makes sense that society had always protected women and let them live different lives from men. Gender roles were very important earlier in history, and now that we're so coddled in our society, we think that's no longer necessary, but I disagree because the very nature of each sex hasn't changed. Men are stronger, so their natural role is defense and production. Women are weaker, so their natural role is child-bearing and everything that goes with it. That's not to say women can't travel and do most of the things men do, but no inequality exists in society that isn't there for a reason. I do not want to see gender roles dissipate, and it's not because I'm a power-hungry chauvinistic male.

[PaulConventionWV]

Me too. I'm torn, because I like to be taken care of. I have two boys and a husband. I can't remember the last time I carried anything heavy. Not because I can't, but because I don't have to.

But on the other hand, I don't need men to take care of me. I have no doubt that I could protect myself and my property just fine. But women are different. I can't imagine some of my girly-girl friends being told they needed to crawl though mud.

But again, back to that first hand - you guys are saying that women shouldn't be in combat because hearing a feminine shout of pain would be too upsetting for the man? Uh.....

The best idea is to stop the damned wars. If the enemy invades us, there will be enough killing for everybody.

They're not going to stop. And feminism is going to go right along with it. Feminism is alive and well in our society. Even more so now than ever, in fact. Whoever said that it's a thing of the past, I really have to wonder where they've been sticking their heads this whole time.

[Matthew5]

I sat down to type an opinion on this and I began mapping out all the factors at play. I really can't say whether this is a good or bad thing, because the issue of gender roles, family roles, and population needs have to be addressed first. But we also have the liberty element to it. If we believe in the right of the individual, does that give women the power to abstain from their social role? This is a tough call.

I will say that current de-genderfication (I probably just made up a word) efforts in this society are alarming. How far is too far? I'm leaning toward this not being too far.

Now whether any gender should be fighting these "wars" is a pretty clear cut issue.

[PaulConventionWV]

Female will have to understand there are risks like...

Sexual Harassment/rape from fellow soldiers
Sexual Harassment/rape from being captured by enemy
Seeing boyfriend blown up (even though its probably against protocol to fraternize with others, you know it will happen)

Not to mention being killed and experience all other manner of ungodly unpleasantness associated with living in tents in the desert.

[Matthew5]

That's only a small part of it to me. Some of us still value old chivalry and think feminism and equality are not all they're hyped up to be. Do women really want to be like us? Never in history can I think of a time when society didn't value "women and children" over their men. Now we're destroying that. Gender roles are not a bad thing. Women bear children, so it makes sense that society had always protected women and let them live different lives from men. Gender roles were very important earlier in history, and now that we're so coddled in our society, we think that's no longer necessary, but I disagree because the very nature of each sex hasn't changed. Men are stronger, so their natural role is defense and production. Women are weaker, so their natural role is child-bearing and everything that goes with it. That's not to say women can't travel and do most of the things men do, but no inequality exists in society that isn't there for a reason. I do not want to see gender roles dissipate, and it's not because I'm a power-hungry chauvinistic male.

I'll +rep this. Gender roles are important and I think they need to be preserved. But I think those roles can be tweaked as long as you don't mess with the internal mechanics. I believe there are some inequalities that should be fixed because they're bent in the wrong direction.

[dinosaur]

Whoever said that it's a thing of the past, I really have to wonder where they've been sticking their heads this whole time.

I'm the one who said that it was a thing of the past...among women. I said it because the under 40 crowd no longer has a chip on their shoulder about not being seen as "as good as" men or about not having as many opportunities as men. They don't. And if you could get them to be honest, they are sad about not having the opportunity to work inside the home like women of past generations had. There is no mass push for women in combat among yourng females, and I'm betting that the vast majoirity of them would not ever want to deliberately put themselves in that situation. What I find disturbing is that it seems to be mostly men pushing the femminist line these days...and women will go along with it because that is what men expect from them now.

[PaulConventionWV]

So... women are allowed to defend themselves with guns... unless they are being paid to do it, in which case only men are good enough?

They're not defending themselves. Can you honestly not differentiate between shooting a burglar or rapist and going thousands of miles to fight people who wouldn't normally concern you in any way. There's also a difference between defending oneself and defending a whole country, although I hate to call it defense at this point because America is not under threat from any enemy.

Sadly, I think most people who use such analogies on this forum know that it's faulty, but they are suffering from cognitive dissonance that allows them to keep their biases despite obvious contradictions. Either that, or you're just a shit disturber and a liar that likes to bait people into arguing against such idiocy. I don't want to use the word "troll" because it's too casual. It's worse than that.

[PaulConventionWV]

They're obviously less qualified... could just pay them less. Though I don't think that'd go over too well lol

Exactly. Pay them less because they are less productive... and the feminists scream and shout. Give them equal pay and, well, you get the picture.

Plus, I don't think paying them less would attract too many women. The men aren't paid that much as it is. Weird how that works.

[PaulConventionWV]

But billiards is more physics than biceps. Bowling too - why do men perform better? I mean, you can only do so good at bowling.

Weird, huh? Nonetheless, the differences persist. There may also be a strength factor in bowling. I'm terrible at it, and I know my wrists get tired after about 7 rounds, greatly affecting my ability to control the ball.

[PaulConventionWV]

Don't blame us... blame millions of years of evolution...

Or divine creation. Either way...

[demolama]

Female will have to understand there are risks like...

Sexual Harassment/rape from fellow soldiers
Sexual Harassment/rape from being captured by enemy
Seeing boyfriend blown up (even though its probably against protocol to fraternize with others, you know it will happen)



Not to mention being killed and experience all other manner of ungodly unpleasantness associated with living in tents in the desert.
This already happens in non-combat roles. Nothing will change

[Keith and stuff]

Not to mention being killed and experience all other manner of ungodly unpleasantness associated with living in tents in the desert.

They already do that. All of that already happens. Women serve in combat rules in the Army, Air Force and Marines already. This just means that some of the tiny number of units which don't currently usually have women will now have women. Women have served on the front lines for many years in the Army. In fact, since at least the post 911 Iraq War.

[klamath]

Not to mention being killed and experience all other manner of ungodly unpleasantness associated with living in tents in the desert. This seems to be based on some pretty bad ignorance of the current situation in the military. You don't think that women that were deployed were in tents now? I must have spent some time in tents with some mighty pretty guys if not.;)

[PaulConventionWV]

This seems to be based on some pretty bad ignorance of the current situation in the military. You don't think that women that were deployed were in tents now? I must have spent some time in tents with some mighty pretty guys if not.;)

I must have misunderstood the question. Never mind. I thought it was referring to females going into the military for the first time.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Boys are soldiers and women are for making babies.

Really not surprising we poll so poorly among women.



I am not really able to believe people still think this way.


I poll quite well among women, and one of the reasons is because I'm responsible for their security when they're with me. They know I'm capable of it. The girls I know like this. I also open doors that they could open for themselves, and carry things that they could carry for themselves. And I'll do things like work on their cars sometimes when they need help.

I'm not sure I've ever heard a girl complain about any of those things.

I don't like the idea of girls fighting in wars because I care about them. If they want to, do I feel some overwhelming need to stop them? Not really. But I'm also not a soldier. I don't want men fighting in these wars, either. There's an entire generation coming up with missing limbs and PTSD. I dislike that. If I can differentiate groups of them and express my disapproval, then that's where I'm at. Men, aged 18-21? I don't like that. Men... aged 22-25 I don't like that. Can I stop them? Not really.

I'll carry a 5 year old for a mile, who is perfectly capable of walking. Does that mean I don't respect the 5 year old?