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View Full Version : Where are the LIGHT DUTY DIESEL Pickups and SUV's?




presence
12-02-2012, 09:39 AM
"The diesel pickup trucks can not be shipped into the USA !!!" (http://www.best-used-tractors.com/diesel_toyota.html)



VW Chairman Ferdinand Piech himself drove from Wolfsburg to Hamburg to join the shareholders meeting – averaging just 0.89 litres per 100 km (317 mpg) along the way VW Diesel 1-Litre-Car[/B]]

VW engineers[] realized that a diesel engine was the only real option for the powertrain as only a diesel meets the maximum requirements for optimum energy utilization.

http://www.autos.ca/auto-brands/feature-vw-1-litre-car/



What America needs right now is a domestically-built pickup truck that gets 45 miles per gallon.

Ask a small business owner with a local delivery or work fleet that's been squeezed by inflated fuel costs ... a truck that pulls down 45 miles per gallon (MPG) would be heaven sent.
http://www.mpgomatic.com/45_MPG_Pickup_Truck.html

That's science fiction you say?



I've traveled all over the world. Mid sizes diesels trucks are sold everywhere except in the USA. http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efede0b/26#MSG26



Top 5 US SUV's and Light Trucks, by Combined MPG:

32 Ford Escape SUV
22 Toyota Tacoma
21 Chevrolet Silverado
21 GMC Sierra
...I'll even throw the Mazda 5 Minivan in there at 24; it hardly counts.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/best-worst.shtml




due to changes in the U.S. regulatory and market situation[] the truck we've long been expecting isn't going to happen.http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/11/mahindra-gives-up-altogether-on-small-diesel-pickup-for-u-s/


Trucks That Are Bigger and Badder, but Perhaps Not Betterhttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/08/14/automobiles/14SUB3WHEE2/14SUB3WHEE2-articleLarge.jpg
PLUSH The GMC Sierra Denali 2500HD can tow more than 20,000 pounds. It also has air-conditioned leather seats.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/14/automobiles/autoreviews/trucks-that-are-bigger-and-badder-but-perhaps-not-better.html?pagewanted=all


HEAVY-DUTY pickup trucks are the supercars of the truck world. They have more power than drivers are likely ever to exploit, and bragging rights depend on statistics that are, in practical terms, theoretical.

While you can’t buy a diesel engine in a mainstream light-duty pickup, heavy-duty pickups now offer propulsion suitable for a tandem-axle dump truck. I’m not exaggerating. Ford’s 6.7-liter Power Stroke diesel V-8 packs 400 horsepower and 800 pound-feet of torque; the base engine in a Peterbilt 348 dump truck offers a mere 260 horsepower and 660 pound feet. Does your pickup really need more power than a Peterbilt?



Now, I'm not saying there's not need for 20k towing capacity. I know how to use it. I've driven with 37k behind me; I know what that's all about.

I just don't understand why if you want a diesel in the US it has to weigh 4 tons and can't get 23 mpg.


http://www.mpgomatic.com/45_MPG_Pickup_Truck.html

Remarkably, we had a domestically-built compact pickup truck that scored 45 MPG ... twenty-five years ago ... but sadly, it slipped away ..

1981 TOYOTA 1L DIESEL TRUCK
http://dsl.sr5.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/81l1.jpg

1978 RABBIT DIESEL TRUCK (US produced)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/BH/vw-rabbit-pickup-470-1008.jpg


Now when market leaders talk about "light duty diesels" its:

General Motors 4.5L light-duty diesel V8 was on track for 25 mpg combined (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/11/general-motors-4-5l-light-duty-diesel-v8-was-on-track-for-25-mpg/)

4.5L = light duty ??

The VW and Toyota above could tote sheets of plywood all day on 1.8; they didn't even have turbos.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efede0b/27#MSG27


I think most of the blame lies with the EPA and CARB. They have all but blocked the sale of mid sized diesel PU trucks and cars. You want a big fire breathing, CO2 spewing 1 ton diesel truck, No problem. You are right, a mid sized diesel truck would sell very well in the US if offered. I have waited for 10 years for just that vehicle to arrive here. Still waiting.


CARB?



WHEREAS: CARB is an unelected and unaccountable bureaucracy whose actions have killed jobs and harmed our economy.
WHEREAS: CARB has abused its power by levying millions of dollars in disproportionate fines on business owners who have not violated existing laws or who have committed only minor technical oversights.
WHEREAS: CARB has proposed or implemented policies that infringe on our right to make our own decisions and run our own lives.
WHEREAS: CARB continues to move forward with plans to mandate increased ethanol usage despite overwhelming evidence that ethanol will significantly raise fuel costs without improving the environment.
WHEREAS: CARB has promised its actions will lead to a prosperous new green economy that has failed to materialize but that have instead turned California into a national leader in high unemployment.
BE IT RESOLVED: CARB should be abolished! We need jobs and a healthy economy, not punitive and unfair regulations!

http://killcarb.org/


European emissions rules allow a diesel to emit up to 0.29 grams of nitrous oxide (NOx) per mile — which is about what the typical diesel school bus or trash truck emitted 5 years ago.

US regulations on the other hand, only allow a diesel to emit 0.07 grams of NOx per mile, making compliance a costly effort.
Smaller firms like Honda or Subaru would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a compliant engine (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/11/subaru-still-considering-diesel-boxer-engine-for-u-s-if-fuel-pr/), for a historically small US market. So it’s tough for many of them to justify such a big investment.

http://www.practicalenvironmentalist.com/automobiles/subaru-diesel-cars-usa.htm


New Boxer Diesel Forester; Euro only
http://cdn3.worldcarfans.co/2008/9/medium/9080905.007.1M.jpg



September 5, 2008 We’d been looking at pictures and static displays of Subaru’s horizontally-opposed diesel engine for several years before seeing it in the Legacy and Outback earlier this year. The engine is exceptionally compact, very light and has a low centre-of-gravity which benefits handling agility and makes best use of the all-wheel drive system. Throw in gobs of torque (the 2.0 litre version produces 258 lb ft at 1,800 rpm),
[]

Both the Forester and Impreza Boxer Diesels feature new six-speed manual gearboxes while the engine itself benefits from a new closed-type diesel particulate filter.

No other SUV can better the 44.8 mpg[] of the Forester 2.0D.

2012 Colorado; Europe


But you Mr. Land of the Free Home of the Brave... can't buy one, import one, or drive one. And you can't have one of these either:



2013 VW Amarok Pickup Truck
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/2011_Volkswagen_Amarok_(2H)_TDI400_Highline_4-door_utility_(2011-08-17)_02.jpg/800px-2011_Volkswagen_Amarok_(2H)_TDI400_Highline_4-door_utility_(2011-08-17)_02.jpg

Fuel consumption in a combined cycle format is as low as 7.6 L/100 km (37 mpg-imp; 31 mpg-US) on the rear wheel drive variant to 8.1 L/100 km (35 mpg-imp; 29 mpg-US) on the 4Motion theoretically giving the Amarok a 1,000 km (620 mi) range before filling up for fuel.



Fine German engineering... smokes anything on US roads in terms of MPG in a pickup. But basically the same issues as:


Jeep Grand Cherokee and Jeep Wrangler, are both available with 3.0-liter diesel engines in Europe, but they are not available in the U.S. currently and would have to be adapted to meet strict and costly emission standards.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/01/chrysler-ceo-light-duty-diesel-ram-pickup-feasible-but-is-there-a-demand.html


On the other side of the globe, look at what India gets:

Mahindra Maxximo
http://www.automobileupdates.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/MahindraMaxximo.jpg
http://mahindraplanet.blogspot.com/2010/01/mahindra-launches-maxximo-pickup.html

ndia’s leading SUV manufacturer,today organised the ‘Maxximo C2CRDe Mileage Rally’, a unique customer centric initiative aimed at highlighting the vehicle’s class leading fuel economy. This mileage test was done for Maxximo owners in Ludhiana.
Having clocked a record mileage of 35 km/litre, the event took the city by storm[I].

mpg = (km/lt) * 2.35214583 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=convert+km%2Flt+mpg&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmulps.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F04%2 F14%2Fhow-to-convert-kml-to-mpg%2F&ei=nLi7UJvLNKWa0QG1x4H4AQ&usg=AFQjCNFRqE8fOrl4V2JDCNzxJ0oRNT9ATg) 82.3 MPG

That's NY to Miami for $65, tell me you couldn't find a use for one of those little suckers. We're talking fuel expense about equal to belts-oil-tires.

And the Maxximo's competitor:

Tata Ace

http://www.motorstown.com/images/tata-ace-01.jpg
http://ace.tatamotors.com/home.php

http://www.marketing91.com/tata-ace-market-challengers/

The Mileage efficiency of Tata Ace is 20-22 KMPL
[47-51.7 MPG]

http://business.inquirer.net/15879/the-best-rides-to-combat-high-fuel-prices


Yeah but those don't meet US safety standards (got Ben Franklin (http://www.bartleby.com/73/1056.html)?)...

Well how about these non-US offerings from Toyota and Isuzu:


Isuzu D-Max 4×2 pickup (manual 2.5L diesel)—20.57 km/L [48 MPG]

http://business.inquirer.net/15879/the-best-rides-to-combat-high-fuel-prices


http://www.zcars.com.au/images/2009-isuzu-dmax1.jpg

We get the same chassis as the "Chevy" Colorado and the Isuzu Rodeo... both 21 mpg.






Toyota Hilux pickup (manual 2.5L diesel)—19.12 km/L [44.9 MPG]


http://www.japanesesportcars.com/photos/d/31299-2/2008-toyota-hilux-sr5-4x4.jpg


Look familiar? Yeah that 45 MPDG Hilux is our top performing 22 MPG Tacoma.

http://www.badgerflats.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/bend_over_2-240x300.jpg

....Hang On Tight!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

Price discrimination or price differentiation[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination#cite_note-1) exists when sales of identical goods or services are transacted at different prices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price) from the same provider.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination#cite_note-krugman-a-2) In a theoretical market with perfect information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information), perfect substitutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good), and no transaction costs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaction_cost) or prohibition on secondary exchange (or re-selling) to prevent arbitrage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage), price discrimination[I] can only be a feature of monopolistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly) and oligopolistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly)markets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market),[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination#cite_note-3) where market power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power) can be exercised.

This is price discrimination. Just like when you buy laundry soap... its all the same shit with different coloring agents and a different label. The more money then cents folks take the Tide off the top shelf, and the more cents than money folks wash with Fab. Everyone gets clean clothes. Everyone gets a progressive price. In the US we get our pickup trucks wrapped up in a big fancy, heavy, fuel guzzling package. While the rest of the world gets twice the mileage with the diesel truck they need. Everyone gets where they're going...

Could you imagine if we actually ALREADY produced 60-70 mpg cars in the US, on an industrial scale, RIGHT NOW... but only exported them:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?397305-Where-are-the-LIGHT-DUTY-DIESEL-Pickups-and-SUV-s&p=4757831&viewfull=1#post4757831

Could you imagine if the only reason was Fuel Tax Revenue (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?397305-Where-are-the-LIGHT-DUTY-DIESEL-Pickups-and-SUV-s&p=4758894&viewfull=1#post4758894)?

We've cornered ourselves. We don't even have a choice any more.

Perhaps the solution is:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efede0b


Find yourself a old pickup, one thats to old for the states to worry about the smog test. Go to a junk yard (bigger cities have the best ones) and find yourself a good working diesel with all the parts ya need. Find a garage to put it all together in and your good to go !

Good luck.



related keywords:
Mazda Bongo, Nissan Vanette, Mahindra Diesel, biodiesel, SVO, WVO, EV, diesel electric hybrid,

tod evans
12-02-2012, 09:49 AM
Quite simply this is due 100% to government regulations..

The GVW determines what EPA regs come into play..

Czolgosz
12-02-2012, 09:50 AM
I've wanted a light duty diesel for a long time, would love to have a diesel in my FJ and all the LD trucks I've own in the past.

madengr
12-02-2012, 10:19 AM
Yeah, I have been wanting a VW truck, and one finally came up for sale locally, and my wife shut me down. ARGHH! She complained it had only two seats; no room for kids; that's the point. I woulda pulled the passenger seat too! ;-)

I do see a VW TDI Wagon (http://autos.nytimes.com/2013/Volkswagen/Jetta_SportWagen/287/10775/352782/researchOverview.aspx) in my future. One of the few family vehicles you can still get in a 5 speed. Problem is they may be prone to high pressure fuel pump failure, which is a $10k fix out of warranty.


I just don't understand why if you want a diesel in the US it has to weigh 4 tons and get 23 mpg.
Funny thing is, 23 MPG is better than my 2005 Tacoma (4 door), and the Taco is a light truck.

Anyway, this guy nails it. Why you can't buy many diesels in the US. Epic rant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBnlXGvA1Wk

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 10:21 AM
Quite simply this is due 100% to government regulations..

The GVW determines what EPA regs come into play..

This is exactly right. In addition, foreign trucks of this size tend to accelerate about as well (maybe) as much heavier trucks in the U.S. American drivers expect one to have a little acceleration under their belts; if you don't you can sit at that stop sign all day as far as we're concerned. Out on the Interstate or on the local truck route, it doesn't matter so much.

It takes a certain amount of money to develop a product. The huge 3500s are easy. You put in a diesel from a Class Six truck (like the Peterbilt 348 the article mentioned) and there you are. This isn't a light truck. This is a medium duty tractor for hauling two axle gooseneck trailers. The U.S. may have the largest car market in the world, but it hardly has a truck market at all. And since there's no diesel car market (due to acceleration and noise), that little light truck market has to pay for a lot of EPA-pleasing special work.

We had all manner of light specialty trucks back in the day. International half tons, Jeep route delivery vehicles and Cushman three wheelers all predated the move by the federal government in the seventies to bury all the competition for GM and Ford except the wealthiest and most dedicated of the importers. Remember the environmentalists carrying on and on about acid rain a while back? Well, here's the tradeoff--no little diesel trucks and no specialty manufacturer to build them.

whippoorwill
12-02-2012, 10:26 AM
Bump. I've been looking for that 40+MPG in a pickup for awhile now

MozoVote
12-02-2012, 10:29 AM
Wall of Text. I'm not going to read all the original post.

But - Google for "Chicken Tax", that is one reason you don't see true compact trucks. It's not impossible to sell them, but manufacturers have to weave and dodge the rules in order to import small trucks.

Truck bloat has been a problem for a while now too. The Nissan Frontier is clearly not the size it was when they were selling the old hardbody truck in the 1980s.

Ford axed the Ranger without a replacement, even though it still sold 80,000 units a year and the tooling had been completely paid for. Keeping the decrepit old plant in Wisconsin operating was becoming a headache and they just didn't want to bother anymore. The final irony is there *is* a "Global Ranger" which Ford sells everywhere else in the world. But not here... it would cannibalize F-150 sales, and there is that Chicken Tax problem again.

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 10:31 AM
Bump. I've been looking for that 40+MPG in a pickup for awhile now

There are certain states that allow very small pickups (like the ones Suzuki makes; I'm talking really small) escape pollution standards, safety regulations, and other things and get regulated less like a light truck and more like a motorcycle. If you haven't seen them around, this isn't because they aren't available at all. It's because your state is regulating them out of existence. Other states have set a precedent for suffering these little pickups to live, save them fuel money and cut their carbon emissions. Though many of those states don't allow them on expressways.

If you can't get them, lobby for them. It may not be exactly what you need, but it's an incremental step in the right direction. In two years, this could enable you to say, 'See, we legalized those and the world didn't end.'


Anyway, this guy nails it. Why you can't buy many diesels in the US. Epic rant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBnlXGvA1Wk

This guy might nail some of the reasons behind this stuff, but he gets a lot of details wrong. So, don't quote him like the Bible. But by all means, this is a good battle for libertarians to pursue. Knock down the EPA and the NHTSA with it? Sure. Let's do it.

AGRP
12-02-2012, 10:33 AM
Anyway, this guy nails it. Why you can't buy many diesels in the US. Epic rant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBnlXGvA1Wk

This. They fight for our freedom.

klamath
12-02-2012, 10:47 AM
Yeah, I have been wanting a VW truck, and one finally came up for sale locally, and my wife shut me down. ARGHH! She complained it had only two seats; no room for kids; that's the point. I woulda pulled the passenger seat too! ;-)

I do see a VW TDI Wagon (http://autos.nytimes.com/2013/Volkswagen/Jetta_SportWagen/287/10775/352782/researchOverview.aspx) in my future. One of the few family vehicles you can still get in a 5 speed. Problem is they may be prone to high pressure fuel pump failure, which is a $10k fix out of warranty.


Funny thing is, 23 MPG is better than my 2005 Tacoma (4 door), and the Taco is a light truck.

Anyway, this guy nails it. Why you can't buy many diesels in the US. Epic rant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBnlXGvA1Wk I just had to get rid of my TDI wagen this year. Being where I live I need 4wd to get to my place I was having to maintain a VW and a Jeep. The cost of maintaining both vehicles did in the fuel mpg advantage of the tdi. I traded them both in for a subaru wagon. The subaru is not nearly as fun to drive. I did have a few computer glitches with the VW but the service was great. Actually the 6 speed tiptronic transmission was great. You can go to the manual mode and shift gears without pushing in a clutch.

youngbuck
12-02-2012, 11:13 AM
There was a company in Inidia that was going to export a compact diesel pickup to America a few years ago. A lot of off-road enthusiasts were interested in its potential. Just did a search on it:

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/07/mahindra-pickup.jpg


With apologies to the Beatles, it's been a long and winding road for those waiting to get their hands on the steering wheel of a small, diesel-powered pickup from Mahindra (http://green.autoblog.com/tag/mahindra). Here's the good news: Something definitive has finally been heard from the Indian automaker. Here's the bad news: It's bad news.

According to Reuters, Mahindra "recently decided not to proceed further with the project due to changes in the U.S. regulatory and market situation." In other words, the truck we've long been expecting isn't going to happen. That said, "M&M will continue to monitor the U.S. situation and remain flexible with its approach to this market."

tod evans
12-02-2012, 11:21 AM
Looks like a market opportunity for those with some free capital...

Maybe an old Perkins 3 cylinder fitted with a turbo mated to a nice aluminum bodied 6 speed.........all bolted to universal mounts that could be welded to anything from a cub-cadet to a late model p/u ....No computer, adjustable fuel rail pressure and boost...neat project..

youngbuck
12-02-2012, 11:35 AM
Looks like a market opportunity for those with some free capital...

Maybe an old Perkins 3 cylinder fitted with a turbo mated to a nice aluminum bodied 6 speed.........all bolted to universal mounts that could be welded to anything from a cub-cadet to a late model p/u ....No computer, adjustable fuel rail pressure and boost...neat project..

That would be awesome.

ghengis86
12-02-2012, 11:38 AM
Looks like a market opportunity for those with some free capital...

Maybe an old Perkins 3 cylinder fitted with a turbo mated to a nice aluminum bodied 6 speed.........all bolted to universal mounts that could be welded to anything from a cub-cadet to a late model p/u ....No computer, adjustable fuel rail pressure and boost...neat project..

Great idea!

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-02-2012, 11:40 AM
Quite simply this is due 100% to government regulations..


Domestic car companies can't get legislation changed that is favorable to them? I thought they had that kind of clout. I suspect they're fine with the current regulatory climate. (we get screwed, but that's not really their concern.)



Wall of Text. I'm not going to read all the original post.


You missed a bunch of interesting things. Why should everyone read what you're writing when they may have already read it in the OP?

John F Kennedy III
12-02-2012, 11:44 AM
About 2 years ago I was really excited about the concept pics I was seeing for the 2014 Toyota Tundra and Ford F150. I can't find them anymore. Maybe someone else can? Are there any official pics yet of either?

I also loved the concept of the Hummer 4: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummer_HX


Edit: This appears to be the 2014 F150:

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2007/10/medium_2006_Ford_Super_Chief_Concept.jpg

tod evans
12-02-2012, 11:48 AM
Domestic car companies can't get legislation changed that is favorable to them? I thought they had that kind of clout. I suspect they're fine with the current regulatory climate. (we get screwed, but that's not really their concern.)


For years there's been collusion between big-oil/government and car manufacturers....They've all figured out how to use climate and pollution alarmists to their financial benefit and anything offered to the "consumer" must fit neatly into one of the preordained pigeonholes.

Sure the manufacturers could profit off mass-marketed diesels in small vehicles but the other two factions would take hits in their wallets...

John F Kennedy III
12-02-2012, 11:56 AM
How about importing one of those foreign trucks and driving it here? Can you if you had the FRN's?

Brian4Liberty
12-02-2012, 11:59 AM
For years there's been collusion between big-oil/government and car manufacturers....They've all figured out how to use climate and pollution alarmists to their financial benefit and anything offered to the "consumer" must fit neatly into one of the preordained pigeonholes.

Sure the manufacturers could profit off mass-marketed diesels in small vehicles but the other two factions would take hits in their wallets...

Corporatism in a nutshell.

tod evans
12-02-2012, 12:00 PM
How about importing one of those foreign trucks and driving it here? Can you if you had the FRN's?

If a person could clear all of the EPA and customs hurdles they'd still face import duties that'll bring the cost on par with a new Jag....

madengr
12-02-2012, 12:06 PM
How about importing one of those foreign trucks and driving it here? Can you if you had the FRN's?

Maybe, but cost prohibitive.

http://www.ehow.com/how_7394125_import-diesel-pickup-north-america.html

tod evans
12-02-2012, 12:24 PM
Diesel powered scooter.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5sd6Pv_xMk

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Looks like a market opportunity for those with some free capital...

Maybe an old Perkins 3 cylinder fitted with a turbo mated to a nice aluminum bodied 6 speed.........all bolted to universal mounts that could be welded to anything from a cub-cadet to a late model p/u ....No computer, adjustable fuel rail pressure and boost...neat project..

Old Perkins? Seriously?

Why not a full electric-hybrid with a Cummins/Onan or other quality generator? You could do a heavy duty driveline that allows you to sell repowered and refurbished trucks, thus avoiding the expenses of compliance with current standards, and a light duty driveline in a new minitruck--designed in house or outsourced from someone like Cub Cadet.

More modern, more efficient, no turbocharger maintenance.

Then you could offer the lighter driveline in a three wheeled car. Losing the fourth wheel causes the fedgov to regard it as a motorcycle, which not only reduces development costs a whole lot, but allows you to design it yourself (four wheelers are so regulated there's a reason they're all so similar--they've basically been designed by Washington for years now). Also, by avoiding the 'automobile' classification you can make it a whole lot lighter. Losing one wheel and a library full of regulations allows you to carve a thousand pounds or more off of the thing.

muzzled dogg
12-02-2012, 01:28 PM
nice thread

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 01:47 PM
So many things on this forum come to this point of, there's a market! We have a way around the regulations that are killing this! Someone ought to run with this ball! And then no one does.

Are we, like the rest of the nation, afraid that as soon as we start, the fedgov will regulate us out of existence? Don't blame you; it isn't like it has never happened before. The question is, are we making political headway or not? The question is, if we do it, and use any governmental attempts to kill our effort as educational tools (want to know why the economy tanked? Look at what Washington does to those who try to fix it), we could do well enough in a power struggle to get our product to market. I wouldn't have said that ten years ago, but I think we could do it today.

I also believe I could produce a prototype of an appealing, attractive, basic, efficient diesel-electric hybrid mini-truck, legal for street duty in (last I heard) 37 states and capable of being cheaply redeveloped as a passenger car, for less than fifty thousand dollars. Can this forum, which once produced million dollar moneybomb days, call me on that and see if it's a bluff?

tod evans
12-02-2012, 02:14 PM
I like the idea, unfortunately all I can afford to chip in is time and half baked ideas...

If it was me working on developing a kit I'd start with a normally aspirated no electronics basic kit..

Hybrid could be an option as could turbo-charging but the ability to burn almost anything should be foremost, and I really like using American castings that are recycled....

klamath
12-02-2012, 02:57 PM
So many things on this forum come to this point of, there's a market! We have a way around the regulations that are killing this! Someone ought to run with this ball! And then no one does.

Are we, like the rest of the nation, afraid that as soon as we start, the fedgov will regulate us out of existence? Don't blame you; it isn't like it has never happened before. The question is, are we making political headway or not? The question is, if we do it, and use any governmental attempts to kill our effort as educational tools (want to know why the economy tanked? Look at what Washington does to those who try to fix it), we could do well enough in a power struggle to get our product to market. I wouldn't have said that ten years ago, but I think we could do it today.

I also believe I could produce a prototype of an appealing, attractive, basic, efficient diesel-electric hybrid mini-truck, legal for street duty in (last I heard) 37 states and capable of being cheaply redeveloped as a passenger car, for less than fifty thousand dollars. Can this forum, which once produced million dollar moneybomb days, call me on that and see if it's a bluff? Diesels including 3 cylinder perkins are getting hit hard in CA by the air quality control board. Even heavy equipment and small off the grid diesel electric plants are being forced to replace perfectly good engines to meet standards.

AGRP
12-02-2012, 03:13 PM
How hard can it be to cheaply convert a car to diesel?

madengr
12-02-2012, 03:36 PM
Anyone know the MPG of a John Deere Gator; 26 HP diesel engine?

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 03:39 PM
How hard can it be to cheaply convert a car to diesel?

Mighty hard. Most gasoline engines aren't stout enough to stand the twenty-something to one compression and ignition by detonation. And many of the auxiliary systems are very different and incompatible, too.


Diesels including 3 cylinder perkins are getting hit hard in CA by the air quality control board. Even heavy equipment and small off the grid diesel electric plants are being forced to replace perfectly good engines to meet standards.

California, as always, is difficult. Of course, a diesel running on vegetable oil is extraordinarily clean, doesn't produce significant amounts of sulfur, and is efficient enough to minimize carbon dioxide output. But environmentalists have never been averse to squelching something that could solve the problem because it doesn't fit neatly into their regulations. See, with actual environmentalists, it's about power, not pollution. Their power.


Hybrid could be an option as could turbo-charging but the ability to burn almost anything should be foremost, and I really like using American castings that are recycled....

I like not turbocharging, but a turbine, because it can burn anything. Turbines have disadvantages as motivation for a motor vehicle, but in an electric hybrid they'd work just fine--you'd never notice those 'disadvantages' if all it had to do was turn a big alternator. But that said, the Onan-type generator package has certain huge advantages for a startup vehicle manufacturer. No development costs, someone else covers the warranty, if you come up with something better it's just a component swap into the new model, all of these are good things. Of course, when having automotive dreams the powerplant often stimulates the creative juices, but in this case a safer route is a better route.

As for hybrid, it really doesn't necessarily require a mass of computerization. If you're in a more relaxed EPA vehicle classification, you could build an entire hybrid with less computerization than one EPA-certified clean gas engine. And there are other advantages to an electric hybrid. People can charge them and use them as electrics, regenerative braking really does add a whole lot of efficiency (you'll notice these hybrids get great mileage, even though their batteries are very, very heavy and make them extra heavy), and the electric drive eliminates the heavy, expensive transmission or transaxle--just use one motor per powered wheel.

With an appealing design and development aimed at American conditions, we really could turn something like this into a hit. We could.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
12-02-2012, 03:49 PM
So many things on this forum come to this point of, there's a market! We have a way around the regulations that are killing this! Someone ought to run with this ball! And then no one does.

Are we, like the rest of the nation, afraid that as soon as we start, the fedgov will regulate us out of existence?


You said it all right there. The problem is not that people aren't smart enough. The problem is that the smart people are smart enough to know they'll get crushed in the process.

I'd like to point out that there is a difference between being "afraid," and making an honest assessment for a business plan. (or any plan)

presence
12-02-2012, 03:51 PM
How hard can it be to cheaply convert a car to diesel?

The most cost effective solution is going to be a Gen 1 Toyota. A 2LT Diesel front clip can be had for about 3K. A nice condition donor Chassis/cab $2500. Bells and whistles for the Conversion another $1500. Maybe $7000? Bringing an 80's truck back to beautiful; priceless.


You could do a heavy duty driveline that allows you to sell repowered and refurbished trucks
http://dieseltoys.com/


How about importing one of those foreign trucks and driving it here? Can you if you had the FRN's?

Kind of like traveling from North to South Korea; even if you're standing on the border, you have to travel 6000 miles by way of Beijing to get there and its best to keep your mouth shut about your travels once you arrive.

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 03:58 PM
You said it all right there. The problem is not that people aren't smart enough. The problem is that the smart people are smart enough to know they'll get crushed in the process.

I'd like to point out that there is a difference between being "afraid," and making an honest assessment for a business plan. (or any plan)

If I seemed like I considered such a decision anything but rational, I apologize. I think we could pull it off, but I freely admit we could wind up paying more to lawyers than engineers. Hell, they even did a movie about Preston Tucker just so we'd all get the message loud and clear. This wasn't long after they killed off American Motors and all the other little independents (and damn near took out Chrysler the first time).

No, I'm not saying corporations don't run the country. Far from it. I'm just saying that I think we could sneak some good products over before they realized that we had something competitive, and then we could play the public relations game. If we get that far with it, then this minitruck producer would be profitable, or good for the liberty movement as an object lesson, or both at once (if we play our cards really, really well).

madengr
12-02-2012, 04:45 PM
I just had to get rid of my TDI wagen this year. Being where I live I need 4wd to get to my place I was having to maintain a VW and a Jeep. The cost of maintaining both vehicles did in the fuel mpg advantage of the tdi. I traded them both in for a subaru wagon. The subaru is not nearly as fun to drive. I did have a few computer glitches with the VW but the service was great. Actually the 6 speed tiptronic transmission was great. You can go to the manual mode and shift gears without pushing in a clutch.

Too bad you can't get a TDI Passat Alltrack in this country.

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/passat-alltrack-gp/home

Luciconsort
12-02-2012, 04:51 PM
last year in my buddies 2500 Chevy DuraMax HD we were driving long dist on 95 not towing anything and getting 27mpg per the on dash display thingy. but he had a little computer you hook up the the truck and he set it for fuel economy and all of a sudden we're getting 42mpg. not sure if the computer is legal, or if it's just full of shit. but it would be nice if thats all you had to do to end around stupid regulations.

presence
12-02-2012, 04:58 PM
I just had to get rid of my TDI wagen this year. Being where I live I need 4wd to get to my place I was having to maintain a VW and a Jeep.


Quaife LSD
http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qdf16r

klamath
12-02-2012, 05:42 PM
Too bad you can't get a TDI Passat Alltrack in this country.

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/passat-alltrack-gp/home
You and Presence are really trying to make me miserable:D
Alltrack numbers.
1968cc, 4cyl, 4WD, 168bhp, 258lb ft, 47.9mpg, 155g/km CO2, 0-62 in 8.9secs, 131mph, 1725kg

tod evans
12-02-2012, 05:55 PM
I think we're looking at two completely different end products?

My thoughts were running along the lines of rebuilt used components such as 3 or even 4 cylinder commercial diesels with completely adjustable fuel delivery coupled to an off the shelf transmission, again used and refurbished...

Sounds like your thoughts are running more along the lines of brand-new off the shelf components assembled into a universal kit that could be geared more toward urban life?

Am I even in the ball park?



I like not turbocharging, but a turbine, because it can burn anything. Turbines have disadvantages as motivation for a motor vehicle, but in an electric hybrid they'd work just fine--you'd never notice those 'disadvantages' if all it had to do was turn a big alternator. But that said, the Onan-type generator package has certain huge advantages for a startup vehicle manufacturer. No development costs, someone else covers the warranty, if you come up with something better it's just a component swap into the new model, all of these are good things. Of course, when having automotive dreams the powerplant often stimulates the creative juices, but in this case a safer route is a better route.

As for hybrid, it really doesn't necessarily require a mass of computerization. If you're in a more relaxed EPA vehicle classification, you could build an entire hybrid with less computerization than one EPA-certified clean gas engine. And there are other advantages to an electric hybrid. People can charge them and use them as electrics, regenerative braking really does add a whole lot of efficiency (you'll notice these hybrids get great mileage, even though their batteries are very, very heavy and make them extra heavy), and the electric drive eliminates the heavy, expensive transmission or transaxle--just use one motor per powered wheel.

With an appealing design and development aimed at American conditions, we really could turn something like this into a hit. We could.

Humanae Libertas
12-02-2012, 07:13 PM
Don't get me started on CARB. You can blame Ronnie Raygun -- yes Regan, the President and former "conservative" poster boy. He signed CARB back when he was Governor of the state.

Because of CARB, certain vehicles with certain parts that are not CARB approved (which cost money to get approval), such as catalytic converters, maybe not pass SMOG inspection in the state, therefore can't be registered nor driven I don't know if other state's like CA have a bureaucracy such as CARB.

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 08:52 PM
Am I even in the ball park?

Sort of, though there's no reason for it to be limited to urban duty (except that the state regs I'm out to meet, in some cases, prohibit expressway operation) and I wasn't thinking of kits. But, you know, it's not that hard to convert a conventional vehicle to electric or electric hybrid. So, skirting federal regulations by rebuilding and repowering older vehicles could be done as well. So, the main functional difference between the hybrid system I envision and what you're talking about is that my powerplants are off the shelf new production diesel generators in boxes that can be stuffed anywhere, and you're talking about the old hot rodder trick of inventing special motor mounts.

In fact, Perkins makes three cylinder generators, so my hybrid could use that engine too. I doubt it would need one quite that big, though. It sure wouldn't need a turbocharger. Mechanically, it's an electric with all the torque two or four electric motors can produce (well, actually we wouldn't be using locomotive axle motors, so it would merely have quite enough torque). All the diesel (or turbine, or whatever) needs to do is recharge the batteries some.


Don't get me started on CARB. You can blame Ronnie Raygun -- yes Regan, the President and former "conservative" poster boy. He signed CARB back when he was Governor of the state.

Because of CARB, certain vehicles with certain parts that are not CARB approved (which cost money to get approval), such as catalytic converters, maybe not pass SMOG inspection in the state, therefore can't be registered nor driven I don't know if other state's like CA have a bureaucracy such as CARB.

Don't get you started? You're trying to get me started.

Not Regan. Donnie Regan was Reagan's Chief of Staff or something like that in the White House. And yeah, Reagan was a bizarre governor. Every year through his reign Dodge Polara (which met the long wheelbase requirement) won the Highway Patrol's performance competition for Enforcement Class Units. And Dodge was competitive pricewise, too. But Reagan woke up one day with the notion that all state agencies must buy from more than one vendor, if only occasionally. So, they got some inferior patrol cars from time to time, just to make Reagan happy.

Yes, ever state has some kind of air resources board. Some don't do much but take care of federally required paperwork. Many have smog checks of some kind or another. No other state sells enough cars to dare tell the carmakers of the world they have to meet a tougher standard than the federal standard except New York, and even they either stick to the federal or the California standard. Of course, California sells more cars than many a country.

AFPVet
12-02-2012, 08:56 PM
If we wanted excellent MPG and power, most of our vehicles would be turbo diesel by now. They already have clean diesel technology... damn regulations. Oh, and diesels can run on about anything... including used vegetable oil* :)

*With a little kerosene added to thin out the mixture in cold temperatures.

Origanalist
12-02-2012, 09:06 PM
Diesel powered scooter.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5sd6Pv_xMk

I want one, and I bet I could turn it around without having to back up.

acptulsa
12-02-2012, 09:07 PM
If we wanted excellent MPG and power, most of our vehicles would be turbo diesel by now. They already have clean diesel technology... damn regulations. Oh, and diesels can run on about anything... including used vegetable oil* :)

*With a little kerosene added to thin out the mixture in cold temperatures.

Very little kerosene.

Yeah, all true--but I'm going to quibble over terms. Turbodiesels aren't bad on power. But any normally aspirated diesel has relatively less power than a gas engine. They do not lack torque. Torque is sheer force; power is a measurement of how much torque you can produce per second. So, diesels are used to carry heavy loads, because they make the torque, but aren't used for dragsters because power gives you acceleration and gas engines give you power. Turbines, meanwhile, are slow to spool up and don't give you engine braking, but run on any fuel.

In a hybrid the engine runs a generator (alternator). Doesn't matter what kind of engine it is. Any engine can turn an alternator.

Anti Federalist
12-03-2012, 12:40 AM
Much win in this thread.

Why not an 80-90 mpg Ford Focus diesel, while we are at it?

http://jozcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2012-ford-focus-econetic-front-angle-view.jpg

coastie
12-03-2012, 01:44 AM
Much win in this thread.

Why not an 80-90 mpg Ford Focus diesel, while we are at it?

http://jozcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2012-ford-focus-econetic-front-angle-view.jpg

Meh, while I like the whole nearly 100mpg thing, I don't like the
a). Ford thing
b). Being encased in something that could totally double as a space ship of some sort. Man that thing is fugly.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 05:30 AM
In my mind I'd not considered electric drive motors....I was stuck on pure diesel propulsion without all of the EPA crap and no computer to go out....

Have you looked at Volvo's prototype electric car? Motors at each wheel...The concept is sound but the electronics cause me to shudder..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T40ZqLZiZyg




Sort of, though there's no reason for it to be limited to urban duty (except that the state regs I'm out to meet, in some cases, prohibit expressway operation) and I wasn't thinking of kits. But, you know, it's not that hard to convert a conventional vehicle to electric or electric hybrid. So, skirting federal regulations by rebuilding and repowering older vehicles could be done as well. So, the main functional difference between the hybrid system I envision and what you're talking about is that my powerplants are off the shelf new production diesel generators in boxes that can be stuffed anywhere, and you're talking about the old hot rodder trick of inventing special motor mounts.

In fact, Perkins makes three cylinder generators, so my hybrid could use that engine too. I doubt it would need one quite that big, though. It sure wouldn't need a turbocharger. Mechanically, it's an electric with all the torque two or four electric motors can produce (well, actually we wouldn't be using locomotive axle motors, so it would merely have quite enough torque). All the diesel (or turbine, or whatever) needs to do is recharge the batteries some.

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 06:14 AM
Have you looked at Volvo's prototype electric car? Motors at each wheel...The concept is sound but the electronics cause me to shudder..

Yes, more than one of them, including some interesting turbine-electric work. And the electronics for electric drive are simpler than the electronics for engine management. Far simpler. Remember, there were electric cars more than a hundred years ago, when you still had a lever in the hub of the steering wheel on your gas buggy to advance and retard the spark as you accelerated and slowed. Electrics honestly don't need much but a rheostat and a reversing relay. And turning the motors into generators for regenerative braking isn't really any more complex. Just another relay. Compared to oxygen sensors and knock sensors, ignition timing controls and fuel injector controls, electric drive stuff is child's play and sixty years proven or more.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 06:24 AM
I'm not against the idea, I'm just ignorant...

I keep going back to what I know....Mechanical stuff.

I'm familiar with basic wiring in industrial settings, motor controls and the like but in my brain I'm able to visualize current flow..Once things get complex enough that motors are offering feedback to a computer that equalizes torque in an attempt to correct for oversteer/understeer I get lost...

Is the system you envision using current drive-line technology or something similar to the Volvo concept?


Yes, more than one of them, including some interesting turbine-electric work. And the electronics for electric drive are simpler than the electronics for engine management. Far simpler. Remember, there were electric cars more than a hundred years ago, when you still had a lever in the hub of the steering wheel on your gas buggy to advance and retard the spark as you accelerated and slowed. Electrics honestly don't need much but a rheostat and a reversing relay. And turning the motors into generators for regenerative braking isn't really any more complex. Just another relay. Compared to oxygen sensors and knock sensors, ignition timing controls and fuel injector controls, electric drive stuff is child's play and sixty years proven or more.

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 06:29 AM
Is the system you envision using current drive-line technology or something similar to the Volvo concept?

For a mini truck? I envision great simplicity. But that doesn't mean traction control couldn't be available as an option. It would enable off-roaders to get more benefit from four motor drive, and people who live in snowy climates might find the cost and complexity worthwhile.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 06:59 AM
For a mini truck? I envision great simplicity. But that doesn't mean traction control couldn't be available as an option. It would enable off-roaders to get more benefit from four motor drive, and people who live in snowy climates might find the cost and complexity worthwhile.

Great simplicity to me means using the existing differential :o...

What I hear you saying is design a new rear (or front) differential/suspension system to encompass electric drive motors...At this point the generator and battery pack could be placed anywhere in the vehicle, not necessarily under the hood..

All of the technology we're talking about is available off the shelf now it'd just be a matter of fitting it to a vehicle..

Makes me wonder about battery weight, even with lithium ion...In order to fit the package into an existing vehicle without redesigning the whole undercarriage weight and weight distribution would be a big factor..

presence
12-03-2012, 07:09 AM
And the electronics for electric drive are simpler than the electronics for engine management. Far simpler. Remember, there were electric cars more than a hundred years ago, when you still had a lever in the hub of the steering wheel on your gas buggy to advance and retard the spark as you accelerated and slowed. Electrics honestly don't need much but a rheostat and a reversing relay. And turning the motors into generators for regenerative braking isn't really any more complex. Just another relay. Compared to oxygen sensors and knock sensors, ignition timing controls and fuel injector controls, electric drive stuff is child's play and sixty years proven or more.

For conversion:

http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp11.php = electric motor capable of propelling a ford ranger to 75 mph $3000
http://www.evsource.com/tls_Soliton1.php = "rheostat" another $3000
http://www.evsource.com/tls_lithium_calb.php = batteries; you'll need another $3500 / 2000lb in this category

The motor bolts right up to an adapter plate eliminating clutch and engine; possibly tranny too. You've still got $2500 in charge controller, fuses, wiring, etc. The problem with EV is range. You're up against the fact that for every 100 miles of range in a Light Duty Truck you need about 2000 lb of battery.

About 10k to get a ford ranger rolling forward w/ 100 mile range on electric. If you really want to get fancy another 20k will let you dock it during the day and charge by solar... then drive at night?

presence

tod evans
12-03-2012, 07:20 AM
Anybody notice that this thread has drifted from diesel powered small trucks to electric power?

presence
12-03-2012, 07:38 AM
In my research of EV it just doesn't seem practical (yet)... huge battery cost, huge battery payload, battery replacement every 36-72 months; 10K plus for a conversion... TDI IMHO is the magic. Grease only makes things better.

I'm driving a 98 vw tdi; 48 mpg last tank. My project truck is a Toyota 2L diesel into an Gen 1 Toyota 4x4; I'm expecting 32+ mpg. If I could only dump half the junk vehicles I have I could afford to finish it. My neighbor has 3 Dodge's w/ 12v and 24v Cummins; he runs 100% Chinese fryer grease by summer; 50/50 w/ regular diesel in cold. The only thing he does is filter the grease 2x through 10 micron. He doesn't titrate/remove glycerin. He says even when he counts the time he has in acquiring/filtering the grease at $20/hr he's still paying under a buck a gallon. The big dodge works for him as a daily driver because he hauls stone. I've beefed up my suspension in my vw so I can haul 500 lbs of tools in the trunk; its my 48 mpg work truck.

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 07:41 AM
The motor bolts right up to an adapter plate eliminating tranny and engine. You've still got $2500 in charge controller, fuses, wiring, etc. The problem with EV is range. You're up against the fact that for every 100 miles of range in a Light Duty Truck you need about 2000 lb of battery.

About 10k to get a ford ranger rolling forward w/ 100 mile range on electric. If you really want to get fancy another 20k will let you dock it during the day and charge by solar... then drive at night?


Anybody notice that this thread has drifted from diesel powered small trucks to electric power?

I didn't do it! Or, at worst, I only half did it!

Is this an electric or a diesel?

http://www.thedieselshop.us/alco6JMech.jpg

The answer is yes and no. It's a diesel-electric. It cannot run off of third rail, overhead wire, or any of the things a straight electric locomotive runs on. It also does not have a clutch and transmission for its huge, amazingly torquey diesel to destroy. Instead, it runs on electricity like an electric locomotive, but that electricity is generated by the on-board diesel.

I haven't been talking straight electrics, just hybrids. Electric drives have advantages, which is why most diesel locomotives (and all large diesel locomotives) are diesel-electric. One is the fact that electric motors are very tractable; they smoothly deliver torque and power. Another is that they are dependable and last a long time. A third is they can act as generators, and give you regenerative braking. And the generator and motors are lighter than most automatic transaxles, and less complex than any.

Add batteries and the whole thing becomes heavier. But that enables you to use the power you saved from regenerative braking to help power you back up to speed. There's a lot to be said for a hybrid.


huge battery cost, huge battery payload, battery replacement every 36-72 months; 10K plus for a conversion...

There are indeed drawbacks. Just having enough battery capacity for regenerative braking and acceleration holds down battery cost (initially and replacement) and payload-robbing weight, and this helps reduce conversion cost. Seems to me the trick is to have just enough capacity to reduce your engine size without losing performance. This doesn't require nearly as much capacity as getting decent range from pure electric power does. And if you design the vehicle around that in the first place, you save the weight and cost of a transaxle, which is significant.

presence
12-03-2012, 07:53 AM
Is this an electric or a diesel?

http://www.thedieselshop.us/alco6JMech.jpg


I've actually read about someone building something like that using a Geo Metro shell and a 10HP Yanmar Diesel. Can't find the link. The idea is actually becoming popular as auxillary power for sailboats. keywords Yanmar SD20 Hybrid Saildrive


interesting...


Biodiesel and SVO Discussion Forums
Build Your Own Hybrid and while you're at it, run on BD or WVO
http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25463

8/20/2007
Icymudpuppy
Senior Member


Hello Everyone,

Some of you may have read about my 1955 IHC pickup I have converted to VO. However, the 1976 Chrysler-Nissan Diesel doesn't run well on Biodiesel or VO, experiencing significant loss of power at lower RPMs. So, I am reworking the whole thing. Tearing out the powertrain and starting fresh.

I will be making a biodiesel/electric hybrid using a 13HP Yanmar diesel generator.


Sent PM to our RPF Icymudpuppy...

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 07:58 AM
I've actually read about someone building something like that using a Geo Metro shell and a 10HP Yanmar Diesel. Can't find the link.

Not surprised.

Many years ago, people tried to do the same thing with flywheels. Braking energy from the wheel motors powered up a heavy flywheel, and the flywheel energy was tapped for acceleration. The main problems were that a flywheel would lose some of that stored energy spinning while the vehicle was parked, and that heavy, high speed flywheels don't last even as long as batteries.

But they were interesting experiments. Especially since, if you mounted them in the right place and had them spin the right direction, the gyroscope action could make for a sweet-handling car.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 08:04 AM
I didn't do it! Or, at worst, I only half did it!


Guilty as charged:o

All of these ideas have merit somebody pick a path and lets head willy-nilly down it to see where it ends..

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 08:16 AM
All of these ideas have merit somebody pick a path and lets head willy-nilly down it to see where it ends..

We could make it pay. We could make it end in profit.

America once had a tradition of driving for pleasure, before the World Wars (and our own wastefulness) used up our oil reserves, and the oil companies and the government then spoiled the party. The rise of motorcycles indicates there's still a desire for little getaways, but not everyone wants to be out in the weather, and not everyone wants to balance a machine that weighs hundreds of pounds and costs thousands of dollars. There are businesses who know they can improve their bottom lines if only they could be free to do what Europe does, too. And there are people who don't want some of this crap we have to buy in our new cars like air bags (nothing like a safety device that deploys with lethal force and can kill you dead by itself). And though any car on the American market today is more powerful and more stable than, say, an ancient MG, some don't consider any of them as fun to drive because the government won't let you build a four-wheeler that light in weight.

I think this minitruck/cyclecar notion would have a ready market waiting for it. The two products could be developed from a single platform, and they would pay for its development handily. And we'd educate some people on why the federal government is a menace in the process. Why can't a four-wheeled be as light, efficient and nimble as this three-wheeled cyclecar? Washington, D.C., that's why.

Of course, they'd have to look good. And the two passenger, three wheeled car version would have to be fun to drive. But that can certainly be arranged.

presence
12-03-2012, 08:22 AM
Not surprised.

Many years ago, people tried to do the same thing with flywheels.

I've done a bit of reading on that subject too. Something I picked up was that you got better storage out of a higher speed thick plastic flywheel (I think they were using lexan) than you do out of a heavy steel flywheel. Not sure of the science behind it. The other element I learned was that counter rotating flywheels balance those gyro forces.

georgiaboy
12-03-2012, 08:24 AM
Great thread. Though this is not an area of expertise for me, I've become much more interested in clean diesel, esp. biodiesel. Given the MPGs of some of the new diesel autos, seems like this is a no-brainer.

Somebody get the right business plan & prototypes, coupled with a few "de-regulate" or "smart regulate" bills sponsored by friendly legislators, in front of Peter Thiel.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 08:34 AM
How about a wood-framed aluminum bodied 3 wheeler...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_4GZDN6eyU

ghengis86
12-03-2012, 08:37 AM
The technology for high mileage, light-duty trucks has been here for decades. Unfortunately, so has government regs. So how do we get around that?

Just drop a little turbo diesel in a Ford Ranger or Toyota Tacoma and you're done. The 4-wheeling guys have been dropping diesels into jeeps and trail rigs for years. Run your truggy on vegetable oil and you're good to go.

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 08:43 AM
How about a wood-framed aluminum bodied 3 wheeler...

I think we can do better than wooden framing. And even though the JAP engine was amazingly efficient for its day, we can do better there as well. That said, the old Morgan does prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a cyclecar can be attractive, sexy and great fun to drive.


The technology for high mileage, light-duty trucks has been here for decades. Unfortunately, so has government regs. So how do we get around that?

Just drop a little turbo diesel in a Ford Ranger or Toyota Tacoma and you're done. The 4-wheeling guys have been dropping diesels into jeeps and trail rigs for years. Run your truggy on vegetable oil and you're good to go.

Yes and no. Yes, but in some states it won't be street legal because it won't pass the emissions test, but if it's old enough it'll be hard to find a lot of them to convert and if it's new enough it'll be overweight from the silly regulations, but to escape those silly regulations in newly built units there's another way--the minitruck category allowed by the laws of nearly forty states.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 08:45 AM
I think we can do better than wooden framing. And even though the JAP engine was amazingly efficient for its day, we can do better there as well. That said, the old Morgan does prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a cyclecar can be attractive, sexy and great fun to drive.

Hold on now......As a carpenter I've got to campaign for wooden parts..:o

presence
12-03-2012, 08:46 AM
The technology for high mileage, light-duty trucks has been here for decades. Unfortunately, so has government regs. So how do we get around that?

Just drop a little turbo diesel in a Ford Ranger or Toyota Tacoma and you're done. The 4-wheeling guys have been dropping diesels into jeeps and trail rigs for years. Run your truggy on vegetable oil and you're good to go.

We're lacking the "little turbo diesel" in the States. The two small diesels we have the most of (and they're few and far between) are the VW TDI and the 4BT Cummins (not the 6BT in the Dodge 2500, but the smaller "bread truck" engine). The VW is a bit underpowered for a Tacoma and the 4BT is too heavy. This leaves in you in diesel engine import mode.... In reality front clip import mode. $3000+ for the motor (I believe 1kzte for a 2000 tacoma)... and whatever time/parts+++ for "just drop it in" Even if you accomplish either swap you're still not going to get much beyond 30 mpg. A 45mpg vw TDI is much more aerodynamic and lighter than a Tacoma. The 4BT would be like driving around with a cast iron bath tub on your hood. Any of the new vehicles are going to require emmisions in many states; so you can't (I don't think you can) just plug and play a 2012 D-4D Hilux engine into a 2012 Tacoma; "Trail Rigs" obviously exempt.

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 09:44 AM
We're lacking the "little turbo diesel" in the States. The two small diesels we have the most of (and they're few and far between) are the VW TDI and the 4BT Cummins (not the 6BT in the Dodge 2500, but the smaller "bread truck" engine). The VW is a bit underpowered for a Tacoma and the 4BT is too heavy. This leaves in you in diesel engine import mode.... In reality front clip import mode. $3000+ for the motor (I believe 1kzte for a 2000 tacoma)... and whatever time/parts+++ for "just drop it in" Even if you accomplish either swap you're still not going to get much beyond 30 mpg. A 45mpg vw TDI is much more aerodynamic and lighter than a Tacoma. The 4BT would be like driving around with a cast iron bath tub on your hood. Any of the new vehicles are going to require emmisions in many states; so you can't just plug and play a 2012 Hilux engine into a 2012 Tacoma; "Trail Rigs" obviously exempt.

Rebuilding and repowering pre-regulation vehicles is a wonderful thing. For example, because it predates a lot of silly regulations, this...

http://www.stationwagonforums.com/forums/gallery/files/5/6/1/7/img00017-20100723-1603.jpg

...weighs less than 90% of the minivans on the U.S. market. But the problem is, there are only so many of them to rebuild...

tod evans
12-03-2012, 09:49 AM
Old pick-ups can be bought cheap and there are aftermarket panels/even complete bodies for everything from the 30's on, suspension parts too....

All that's really needed is the old title and with that you could build/modify to your hearts content..

presence
12-03-2012, 10:06 AM
1961 Dodge Seneca

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2263/2119447285_9dcbb5889d.jpg

145 hp 215 lb-ft

2005+ Toyota Hilux D-4D
http://images03.olx.com.ph/ui/18/44/29/1325233917_295613529_8-2007-Toyota-Fortuner-G-D4D-diesel-46km-only-fresh-well-maintained-.jpg

155 hp and 254 lb-ft (without aftermarket chip)


I'd pack my tools in the back of that all day. I'd bet you'd get 45+ MPG.

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 10:13 AM
...the old title...

Don't forget the VIN plate. And, yes, that's the tricky part.

I don't think three wheeled cars and minitrucks are so completely foreign to Americans that we couldn't get around fed regs that way. And with fuel prices and the economy in the current state, I expect the market to move that direction anyway. We could build and sell all those cars the auto industry isn't building for us. But we have to be less cautious and more unafraid of getting outside the box than Detroit and Tokyo are.

But, yes, rebuilding old relics is a way to build up to some kind of new production. And it's another good way to demonstrate to people just what those asinine regulations are doing to us. An assembly line not for mere assembly, but for disassembly and renovation, would be an interesting thing to design. Would certainly be hard on the supply of whatever model you chose for your efforts. Eventually you would run out of examples worth rebuilding.

AFPVet
12-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Very little kerosene.

Yeah, all true--but I'm going to quibble over terms. Turbodiesels aren't bad on power. But any normally aspirated diesel has relatively less power than a gas engine. They do not lack torque. Torque is sheer force; power is a measurement of how much torque you can produce per second. So, diesels are used to carry heavy loads, because they make the torque, but aren't used for dragsters because power gives you acceleration and gas engines give you power. Turbines, meanwhile, are slow to spool up and don't give you engine braking, but run on any fuel.

In a hybrid the engine runs a generator (alternator). Doesn't matter what kind of engine it is. Any engine can turn an alternator.

True, but diesels can be tuned to create a lot of horsepower too ;) I think it was an Audi TDI or something like that which made a good about of horsepower out of like three liters. Also, acceleration is a combination of torque (the force that gets you moving) and horsepower (the force that keeps you moving).

You really want to make the most power lower in the RPM band because if you have two vehicles that weigh the same, have the same transmissions... the vehicle that makes x amount of horsepower before the other one is going to get to the end of the 1/4 first. Diesels happen to be great at making horsepower lower in the RPM band, unfortunately, many don't have very good HP/weight ratios. I would like to see that changing. If you put a 300hp diesel in a mustang, you'll be hitting the 1/4 MUCH faster than the 300hp gasoline engine provided that you can hook lol.

presence
12-03-2012, 11:11 AM
2004 TOYOTA RAV4 XT4 D-4D SILVER
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-TOYOTA-RAV4-XT4-D-4D-SILVER-/160931333199?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item257841444f
current bid $2800, ends 2 hours


uk bidders only



42.8 MPG combined fuel economy
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/rav4/16397/toyota-rav4



Regular Gasoline

21 MPG
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/20375.shtml


over 10,000 miles 233 gallons diesel @4.05/g vs 476 petro gallons at $3.50

10k diesel miles: $943
10k petro miles: $1666
-------------
$723

100k miles

$7,230

200k miles life of the vehicle

$14,460

+/- 150k annual sales in the US, of this vehicle alone

2,169,000,000

$2.1 Billion in unnecessary fuel expense just by adding another years worth of these SUV's to the market without the available-everywhere-else diesel.

@ 13c on the dollar: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/gas-price1.htm

=$282M

Catch that? Over the life of the vehicle, .gov gets $282 million in additional fuel tax revenue by disallowing diesel engines on one model year of one SUV.

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 11:44 AM
...you'll be hitting the 1/4 MUCH faster than the 300hp gasoline engine provided that you can hook lol.

Yup. That's why turbocharging is so nice for diesels. Yeah, there's turbo lag. But turbocharging boosts power much more than torque, which is just what a diesel needs for automotive use. You'll still get enough torque to break loose, of course. But not so much more that it's about impossible to stay hooked.

And making power 'lower down' isn't that decisive. It's all in the gearing.

There's a reason I like electric motor drive. The more of them you use, the less heavy driveline you need. Is any transmission so wonderful as to be worth its weight? Does anyone here really like changing CV joints?

presence
12-03-2012, 12:39 PM
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/yanmar_4kw.asp?page=yanmar_4kw
Slow-Turning 5 kW Yanmar Diesel Generator $3375

With that Warp 11 EV setup I mentioned earlier; maybe 1/4 of the batteries.
.24 g/hr

Tod
12-03-2012, 12:40 PM
My neighbor the dairy farmer still drives an old diesel VW pickup from the 70's. It is the second one he's owned in the 24 yrs I've known him.

presence
12-03-2012, 12:47 PM
My neighbor the dairy farmer still drives an old diesel VW pickup from the 70's. It is the second one he's owned in the 24 yrs I've known him.


81 rabbit D ending in 30 minutes on ebay; $2900 Ohio

Anti Federalist
12-03-2012, 12:47 PM
Meh, while I like the whole nearly 100mpg thing, I don't like the
a). Ford thing
b). Being encased in something that could totally double as a space ship of some sort. Man that thing is fugly.

A - First On Race Day

B - What new car isn't fugly? They all look like Tylenol capsules on acid AFAIC. Nobody is ever going to sing rockabilly songs about their Prius or Accord.

AGRP
12-03-2012, 01:16 PM
Isnt the vw tdi series diesel? They are all over the place.

presence
12-03-2012, 01:24 PM
Isnt the vw tdi series diesel? They are all over the place.

Yep. I drive one. They're not trucks or SUV's though. There is the new Passat TDI Wagon.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 01:25 PM
I know it's not a diesel, but am I the only one who finds the S&S powered Morgan extremely cool?

presence
12-03-2012, 01:37 PM
I know it's not a diesel, but am I the only one who finds the S&S powered Morgan extremely cool?

Have you seen the harley powered Ellipse? http://www.planetltd.com/

I'd still prefer a yanmar diesel in it.

tod evans
12-03-2012, 01:41 PM
Have you seen the harley powered Ellipse? http://www.planetltd.com/

I'd still prefer a yanmar diesel in it.

Cool! (It's running an S&S motor too)

There's no reason a fellow couldn't put a veggie-stroker on that...Hook a trailer to it and insta-work vehicle..

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 02:04 PM
I know it's not a diesel, but am I the only one who finds the S&S powered Morgan extremely cool?

Are you kidding? Or merely accusing me of lacking taste?

The original Morgans are one reason why I want to produce a cyclecar so much, aside from I sense a developing market for them. They're not only pretty, they handle really well. I think the boattailed speedster is a far better body style for three wheelers than for four wheelers.

The Northbreather
12-03-2012, 02:15 PM
I've wanted a light duty diesel for a long time, would love to have a diesel in my FJ and all the LD trucks I've own in the past.
I have a 79 toyota land crusier bj40 (toyota diesel engine) that gets awesome milage ..... its warming up in the driveway as we speak

tod evans
12-03-2012, 02:16 PM
I really like that it's running an American made motor, not one that's just assembled here...


Are you kidding? Or merely accusing me of lacking taste?

The original Morgans are one reason why I want to produce a cyclecar so much, aside from I sense a developing market for them. They're not only pretty, they handle really well. I think the boattailed speedster is a far better body style for three wheelers than for four wheelers.

presence
12-03-2012, 02:28 PM
The original Morgans are one reason why I want to produce a cyclecar so much, aside from I sense a developing market for them..

Have you seen the KMX Viper EV? They're on ebay for about $3500

http://kmxus.com/models/viper/

+

http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/
(http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/)

There are youtubes out there with people on custom tadpole EV's smoking tires and dropping 0-60 in under 5.

I wonder if one of those 2.5cc model air plane diesel engines would keep it charged?

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Have you seen the KMX Viper EV?

No, I hadn't. That's nice. Shows the advantages of a low center of gravity in making a three wheeler handle well. But I was thinking a little weather protection would be nice...

presence
12-03-2012, 03:42 PM
greenspeed, ice sprint, and catrike are other brands of tadpoles

some people are attaching 125cc dirtbike engines and aerodynamic shells... 100 mpg on petro 60 mph; legality issues in some states; you need 250 cc minimum on interstate?

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/125cc-sufficient-aerodynamic-custom-tadpole-trike-10992.html


But I was thinking a little weather protection would be nice...
<br>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;feature=fvwp&amp;v=NjnFPauxStw

tod evans
12-03-2012, 03:44 PM
But I was thinking a little weather protection would be nice...

Rain-n-bugs;

http://www.designerwholesalesources.com/images/discount-ray-ban-aviators-2-6.jpg

Snow-n-ice;

http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/160/4/AAAAAq5zIfcAAAAAAWBGyw.jpg?v=1224014058000

Anti Federalist
12-03-2012, 03:55 PM
I know it's not a diesel, but am I the only one who finds the S&S powered Morgan extremely cool?

The drool shorted out my keyboard.

Madison320
12-03-2012, 04:05 PM
At least I'm not the only one who wants a high mpg pickup! I've been wanting one for years. I have a 2003 nissan frontier but it is still classified as a mid size and only gets about 23 mpg. Have you ever seen a "small" late model pickup next to an older model? The older models (70s and 80s) were MUCH smaller.

My dream truck would be to start with a frontier or tacoma with a king cab, scale it down a little, make it more aero and make it a diesel or a hybrid so it gets 35 mpg.

presence
12-03-2012, 04:11 PM
Check out this 95 mpg diesel:

HDT M1030-M2 670cc JP8

http://motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/HDT/hdt_m1030m2_670.htm





Now there's a motor for your diesel/EV hybrid.

opal
12-03-2012, 04:16 PM
No love for Dodge in this thread?
Ram diesel anyone?

















*still clinging to 45 year old wagons as the best vehicle ever

gerryb1
12-03-2012, 04:27 PM
I also believe I could produce a prototype of an appealing, attractive, basic, efficient diesel-electric hybrid mini-truck, legal for street duty in (last I heard) 37 states and capable of being cheaply redeveloped as a passenger car, for less than fifty thousand dollars. Can this forum, which once produced million dollar moneybomb days, call me on that and see if it's a bluff?

indiegogo.com

acptulsa
12-03-2012, 04:56 PM
No love for Dodge in this thread?
Ram diesel anyone?

Sure. The consensus was it's a beast that looks better in a Class Six Truck.


*still clinging to 45 year old wagons as the best vehicle ever

That was a very good year. About the worst federal regulation up to that point was the sealed beam headlamp.

presence
12-03-2012, 06:49 PM
No love for Dodge in this thread?
Ram diesel anyone?


2500 Cummins pulls my 7.5 ton Dynahoe with no problems on 5th wheel; no real change in the 20 mpg you get driving empty. It has its purpose and adapts to wvo very well. Generally too wide for the trail and too heavy to tote tools on the cheap. Great for hauling stone, cattle, lumber, vehicles, etc. Totally different category than a 4 door 45mpg Hilux. Great truck, purpose built, but not a light duty truck by any means.

AFPVet
12-03-2012, 08:07 PM
Oh, and check out this Audi turbodiesel race car:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10_TDI

Specs:


Audi R10 TDI at the Neckarsulm AudiForum
Category Sports car racing -
Le Mans Prototype LMP1
Constructor Audi AG (with Dallara)
Predecessor Audi R8 (race car)
Successor Audi R15 TDI
Technical specifications
Chassis Carbon fibre monocoque
Suspension (front) Double wishbone, torsion bar with separate damper, anti-roll bar
Suspension (rear) Double wishbone, torsion bar with separate damper, anti-roll bar
Length 4650 mm
Width 2000 mm
Height 1030 mm
Wheelbase 2,980 mm (117.3 in)
Engine Audi 5.5 litre V12 TDI DPF twin-turbo, mid-engined, longitudinally mounted
Transmission 5-speed S-tronic[1]
Fuel Shell V-Power Diesel
Tyres Michelin

The Northbreather
12-03-2012, 08:44 PM
No love for Dodge in this thread?
Ram diesel anyone?



*still clinging to 45 year old wagons as the best vehicle ever

Nope :)

'04Ford F250 Diesel 4x4
'79 Toyota 4cylinder Diesel 4x4
'87 Toyota 4runner 4x4
'86 Toyota 4runner 4x4

cjm
12-04-2012, 03:10 AM
$2.1 Billion in unnecessary fuel expense just by adding another years worth of these SUV's to the market without the available-everywhere-else diesel.

@ 13c on the dollar: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/gas-price1.htm

=$282M

Catch that? Over the life of the vehicle, .gov gets $282 million in additional fuel tax revenue by disallowing diesel engines on one model year of one SUV.




+rep.

madengr
12-04-2012, 12:13 PM
Electrics honestly don't need much but a rheostat and a reversing relay. And turning the motors into generators for regenerative braking isn't really any more complex. Just another relay. Compared to oxygen sensors and knock sensors, ignition timing controls and fuel injector controls, electric drive stuff is child's play and sixty years proven or more.

There is more to it than that. It one thing making a motor turn, and another to do it smoothly and efficiently. Solid state motor drives, and the motors, can get pretty complex, and research is on-going.

AFPVet
12-04-2012, 12:50 PM
It looks like Ford already thought about a LDD. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/16/fords-light-duty-4-4l-v8-diesel-doa/



Ford's light-duty 4.4L V8 diesel DOA?

By Jeremy Korzeniewski RSS feed

Posted Oct 16th 2008 11:30AM
Email This
CommentsAdd

Click above for high-res gallery of the 2009 Ford F-150

Ford's reported decision to put its long-awaited light-duty diesel truck engine on ice for the time being could well be a result of slowing truck sales and the rising cost of diesel fuel. Indeed, the Blue Oval's pickup sales are down by about 27% compared to last year and are a far cry from what they were a few short years ago. That downward trend in sales is partly blamed on the recent rise in fuel prices, and diesel fuel has outpaced gasoline in its upward spiral. So, while diesel engines are inherently more fuel efficient than those running on gasoline, that pricing difference is usually only made up when a truck is used for heavy hauling and towing – one reason the expensive oil-burners prove so popular in the largest of trucks. Ford's not so sure any longer that drivers of its non Super-Duty trucks want or need a smaller diesel engine option. So, for now, Ford's 4.4-liter diesel V8 has been shelved.

Though not in the full-size truck segment for nearly as long, Toyota's Tundra has seen sales declines much steeper than the pickups from Ford, and the Japanese automaker has also put its diesel V8 on hold. General Motors is still on track to launch its 4.5-liter oil-burner, as is Chrysler with a Cummins-built 5.0-liter turbodiesel V8. These relatively small diesels are expected to average about 25% better fuel economy than their gasoline brethren while offering a power improvement of 10-15%. Ford believes it can offer similar performance benefits with its EcoBoost series of engines, one of which is slated for the F-Series trucks in 2010, for a smaller surcharge. We'll see.

Related Gallery2009 Ford F-150

[Source: PickupTrucks.com]

muzzled dogg
12-04-2012, 01:31 PM
I kinda want a ram cummins

tod evans
12-04-2012, 01:49 PM
I kinda want a ram cummins

A friend of mines kid just cranked 1200ftlbs on the dyno with his...:eek: