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FrankRep
11-20-2012, 11:36 PM
The American Tradition of Secession (http://lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo243.html)


Thomas J. DiLorenzo
November 21, 2012



"Secession is a deeply American principle. This country was born through secession."

~ Ron Paul


Leftists and neocons in the media who tend to agree on the propriety and desirability of an ever-growing welfare/warfare/police state were predictably apoplectic when Ron Paul recently stated on his House Web site that secession is "a deeply American principle." Congressman Paul was alluding to the fact that all fifty states have sent secession petitions to the White House.

Typical of the media response was a snotty remark by one Robert Schlesinger, the son of Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., who is the "managing editor of opinion" of the soon-to-go-out-of-business U.S. News. Ron Paul is "deeply wrong," he moaned, calling the congressman a "crank" and predicting that he "will soon be forgotten." Robert Schlesinger’s bad manners are matched by his utter ignorance of American history.

Ron Paul was most certainly correct when he said that America "was born through secession." The Revolutionary War was a war of secession from the British empire. As Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, our Declaration of Secession from the British Empire, governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and whenever that consent is withdrawn, it is the right and duty of the people to "alter or abolish" that government and "to institute a new government."

How else could one possibly interpret the following passage from the Declaration but a declaration of secession or separation from Great Britain?: "That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE and INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved . . .".

In his first inaugural address Jefferson advocated attempts at persuasion, as opposed to a Lincolnian waging of total war of terrorism on American citizens who sought disunion: "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union . . . let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." In a January 29, 1804 letter to a Dr. Joseph Priestly, who had inquired about the prospect of the New England Federalists seceding from the union, as they were plotting to do at the time, Jefferson said: "Whether we remain in one confederacy, or form into Atlantic and Mississippi confederacies, I believe not very important to the happiness of either part. Those of the western confederacy will be as much our children and descendants as those of the eastern . . . " If there was a separation in the future, Jefferson continued, "I should feel the duty & the desire to promote the western interests as zealously as the eastern,, doing all the good for both portions of our future family which should fall within my power."

In an August 12, 1803 letter to John C. Breckenridge Jefferson addressed the issue of New England secession by saying that if they seceded, "God bless them both, & keep them in the union if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better." On June 20, 1816, Jefferson wrote to a Mr. W. Crawford that "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation . . . to a continuance in the union," then "I have no hesitation in saying, ‘let us separate’" (The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A6Q9TOQ/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00A6Q9TOQ&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20), vol. 15, p. 27). Jefferson believed that the right of secession was absolutely necessary if America was to avoid tyrannical government. (And Robert Schlesinger hasn’t the foggiest idea of what he is talking about).

John Quincy Adams believed that if a state or states wanted to secede, then "a more perfect Union" could be formed "by dissolving that which could no longer bind . . ." (John Quincy Adams, The Jubilee of the Constitution (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1936577100/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1936577100&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20), p. 66). In Democracy in America (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140447601/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0140447601&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20) (p. 381) Alexis de Tocqueville observed that "The Union was formed by the voluntary agreement of the States; and in uniting together they have not forfeited their nationality . . . . If one of he states chooses to withdraw from the compact, it would be difficult to disprove its right of doing so, and the Federal Government would have no means of maintaining its claims directly either by force or right."

Jefferson’s great nemesis, Alexander Hamilton, defended the right of secession by saying that "To coerce the States [to remain in the Union] is one of the maddest projects that was ever devised" and thought of "a government that can only exist by the sword," with "Congress marching the troops of one State into the bosom of another" a moral abomination (Jonathan Elliot’s Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1112031588/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1112031588&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20), p. 232).

America’s second generation of secessionists were not the Southern Confederates but the New England Federalists who so loathed the idea of a Jefferson presidency that they plotted to secede for the next fourteen years. Their efforts culminated in the Hartford Secession Convention of 1814 (See James Banner, To the Hartford Convention: The Federalists and the Origins of Party Politics in Massachusetts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394449118/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0394449118&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20)). Much of the discussion of the New England secessionists is contained in Henry Adams, editor, Documents Relating to New-England Federalism (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1246112744/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1246112744&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20). In it one learns that the leader of the New Enland Yankee secessionists was United States Senator Timothy Pickering, who had previously served as George Washington’s adjutant general and quartermaster during the Revolution, and later as secretary of state and secretary or war in the Washington administration.

In 1803 Pickering announced that with New England seceding from the union "I will rather anticipate a new confederacy, exempt from the corrupt and corrupting influence of the aristocratic Democrats of the South." United States Senator James Hillhouse agreed that "The Eastern States must and will dissolve the union and form a separate government." George Cabot, Elbridge Gerry, John Quincy Adams, Fisher Ames, Josiah Quincy, and Joseph Story, among others, voiced similar opinions in the first years of the nineteenth century.

Governor Roger Griswold of Connecticut proclaimed that because of the political clout of the Southern states, "there can be no safety [from political plunder] to the Northern States without a separation from the confederacy [a.k.a. the union]." Senator Pickering explained that secession was THE principle of the American Revolution when he said that "the principles of our Revolution point to the remedy – a separation. That this can be accomplished, and without spilling one drop of blood, I have little doubt." And he was right: President Jefferson considered New Englanders to be an integral part of the American family, and the last thing in the world he would have done was to launch an invasion of New England, bombing Boston, Providence, and Hartford and turning them into a smoldering ruin to "save the union."

The New England Federalists eventually decided in 1814 at the Hartford Secession Convention to remain in the union and work within the system. All during this fourteen year ordeal the predominant view of the New England Federalists as well as the Jeffersonian Democrats was that of course the American union was voluntary, and of course the states therefore have a right to secede without asking for or being given permission by anyone or by any other government.

The third significant American secession movement occurred in what in the nineteenth century were called "the middle states" – New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland. In The Secession Movement in the Middle Atlantic States (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0838611524/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0838611524&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20) historian William C. Wright described how in the 1850s these states, which accounted for some 40 percent of the U.S. economy, had put together a powerful political movement in favor of forming a Central Confederacy as a separate country. On the eve of the War to Prevent Southern Independence leading opinion makers in these states advocated either allowing the Southern states to secede in peace; seceding and joining the Southern Confederacy; or seceding to form a separate nation comprised of the Middle Atlantic states.

Belief that the American union was voluntary and that it would be a war crime and a moral abomination for the federal government to force any state to remain in the union was strong throughout America on the eve of the war. Northern Editorials on Secession (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0844613479/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0844613479&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20), edited by Howard C. Perkins, describes how the majority of Northern newspapers advocated peaceful secession of the Southern states in 1860-61. For example, the Bangor Daily Union editorialized on November 13, 1860 that "The Union depends for its continuance on the free consent and will of the sovereign people of each state, and when that consent and will is withdrawn on either part, their Union is gone." The New York Journal of Commerce condemned "the meddlesome spirit" of Northern "Yankees" who "seek to regulate and control people in other communities." The New York Tribune wrote on December 17, 1860 that "If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861." The Kenosha, Wisconsin Democrat editorialized on January 11, 1861 that "Secession is the very germ of liberty . . . the right of secession inheres to the people of every sovereign state."

Ron Paul could not have said it better.


SOURCE:
http://lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo243.html

Vanilluxe
11-20-2012, 11:44 PM
I have a question I posted on a similar thread that remains unanswered-


I have just one question for all the pro-seccessionist .... ready?

What happens if a city, county, indian reservation, or place in a seceding state wants to stay in the Union?

juleswin
11-21-2012, 12:55 AM
I have a question I posted on a similar thread that remains unanswered-


I have just one question for all the pro-seccessionist .... ready?

What happens if a city, county, indian reservation, or place in a seceding state wants to stay in the Union?

I guess its packing time for those people. Just the same thing that happened to all those pro British folks during the war for independence, you either accept your new situation or pack up and move. Its sad but that the way it goes, you live in a state that has a right to secede from the union so lets not act all surprised when it happens

Vanilluxe
11-21-2012, 01:03 AM
I guess its packing time for those people. Just the same thing that happened to all those pro British folks during the war for independence, you either accept your new situation or pack up and move. Its sad but that the way it goes, you live in a state that has a right to secede from the union so lets not act all surprised when it happens

How is it possible for a city with 2.5 million people like Houston pack up and move out of Texas if they don't want to secede? Secession is unconstitutional as it is the people's rights that overrides the state's rights. Also the Native Americans have a constitutional right to remain in the union as the reservations and peal off of the state. The state has no right whatsoever to deny rights to the people. The constitution gives provision for the federal government to enforce rights of the people if the state does not protect their rights.

juleswin
11-21-2012, 01:29 AM
How is it possible for a city with 2.5 million people like Houston pack up and move out of Texas if they don't want to secede? Secession is unconstitutional as it is the people's rights that overrides the state's rights. Also the Native Americans have a constitutional right to remain in the union as the reservations and peal off of the state. The state has no right whatsoever to deny rights to the people. The constitution gives provision for the federal government to enforce rights of the people if the state does not protect their rights.

You mean to tell me that all of the 2.5 million Houstononians want to stay with the US? I dont exactly know the process the states uses to determine if it should secede, but my guess is that it involves some sort of democratic process. Who told you secession was unconstitutional? this is the first time I am hearing such a thing, I have heard people say its unwise, it will bring the wrath of the fed but the way I have always thought about the US states is this. The states voluntarily joined the union with the idea that they can voluntarily leave when they want to, the constitution be damned.

Vanilluxe
11-21-2012, 02:11 AM
You mean to tell me that all of the 2.5 million Houstononians want to stay with the US? I dont exactly know the process the states uses to determine if it should secede, but my guess is that it involves some sort of democratic process. Who told you secession was unconstitutional? this is the first time I am hearing such a thing, I have heard people say its unwise, it will bring the wrath of the fed but the way I have always thought about the US states is this. The states voluntarily joined the union with the idea that they can voluntarily leave when they want to, the constitution be damned.

The supreme court stated secession was unconstitutional and stated the union was formed by the people, not the states. It is the precedent from the supreme court not me. I'm saying its also wrong if Native Americans have to be forced to secede if their reservations in the state don't want to. Houston was an example btw.

braane
11-21-2012, 02:46 AM
This is a very informative and interesting read. Thanks for sharing!

GunnyFreedom
11-21-2012, 02:55 AM
The supreme court stated secession was unconstitutional and stated the union was formed by the people, not the states. It is the precedent from the supreme court not me. I'm saying its also wrong if Native Americans have to be forced to secede if their reservations in the state don't want to. Houston was an example btw.

Please show me where, article and section, in the US Constitution that secession is prohibited to the states.

Vanilluxe
11-21-2012, 03:13 AM
Please show me where, article and section, in the US Constitution that secession is prohibited to the states.

Check out the case Texas v. White

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

The supreme court states nullification and secession is unconstitutional

Vanilluxe
11-21-2012, 03:37 AM
Please show me where, article and section, in the US Constitution that secession is prohibited to the states.

I also want to ask is right of the majority worth more than the rights of the minority? Is the right of the state worth more than the rights of the individual people? Is it constitutional for a state to revoke citizenship of some people, just because others want to revoke such status? And who are we to say that the state can secede and take along the native americans who have a treaty with the union as a separate entity from the state?

juleswin
11-21-2012, 06:52 AM
I also want to ask is right of the majority worth more than the rights of the minority? Is the right of the state worth more than the rights of the individual people? Is it constitutional for a state to revoke citizenship of some people, just because others want to revoke such status? And who are we to say that the state can secede and take along the native americans who have a treaty with the union as a separate entity from the state?

The idea that the supreme court has the last say about an issue being constitutional is something that I do not accept. So saying referencing a supreme court decision is something i reject. Also if you care so much about the feeling of the minority position takers and Native American population then you should be speaking out against the US on just about everything they do. How about the people that don't want to pay taxes, people that want to should marijuana, people that want to make their own alcohol, people that want to be exempt from SS, medicare etc etc etc. So please, lets not pretend to be caring about their wants by staying with the union

Also a big check on the powers of the US is the threat of states to secede from it, imagine a wife who cannot divorce from her husband no matter what he does? Just imagine the kind of things he will try and get away with now that is the US where it is illegal to secede.

FrankRep
11-21-2012, 07:09 AM
Check out the case Texas v. White

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

The supreme court states nullification and secession is unconstitutional

The Constitution doesn't give the supreme court the authority to override the Constitution.

matt0611
11-21-2012, 08:07 AM
The supreme court stated secession was unconstitutional and stated the union was formed by the people, not the states. It is the precedent from the supreme court not me. I'm saying its also wrong if Native Americans have to be forced to secede if their reservations in the state don't want to. Houston was an example btw.

That's funny, because every state had to ratify the Constitution individually and to voluntarily become part of the union. It wasn't put to a popular vote of the 13 colonies.

GunnyFreedom
11-21-2012, 08:49 AM
Check out the case Texas v. White

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

The supreme court states nullification and secession is unconstitutional


I also want to ask is right of the majority worth more than the rights of the minority? Is the right of the state worth more than the rights of the individual people? Is it constitutional for a state to revoke citizenship of some people, just because others want to revoke such status? And who are we to say that the state can secede and take along the native americans who have a treaty with the union as a separate entity from the state?

OK maybe you didn't understand the question. There are 7 Articles and 27 Amendments. I didn't ask for a court case. I asked for chapter and verse. Article number and section number. The Supreme Court doesn't say what's Constitutional. Unless you think Plessy v Ferguson was a good idea? The Constitution says what's Constitutional. In it's own text. Chapter and verse. Show me the Article and Section in the US Constitution where secession is prohibited.

juleswin
11-21-2012, 09:14 AM
OK maybe you didn't understand the question. There are 7 Articles and 27 Amendments. I didn't ask for a court case. I asked for chapter and verse. Article number and section number. The Supreme Court doesn't say what's Constitutional. Unless you think Plessy v Ferguson was a good idea? The Constitution says what's Constitutional. In it's own text. Chapter and verse. Show me the Article and Section in the US Constitution where secession is prohibited.

Stupid, naive Gunny, don't you know that once the all knowing folks at the supreme court deems anything and I mean anything constitutional, that makes it constitutional. In fact they themselves are the constitution, the living one :)

I am still trying to figure out if Vanilluxe is a troll trying to wind us up. He cares so much about the minority opinion and for that reason secession is contrary to individual freedom. I would laugh but people like Vanilluxe actually believe this

specsaregood
11-21-2012, 09:24 AM
OK maybe you didn't understand the question. There are 7 Articles and 27 Amendments. I didn't ask for a court case. I asked for chapter and verse. Article number and section number. The Supreme Court doesn't say what's Constitutional. Unless you think Plessy v Ferguson was a good idea? The Constitution says what's Constitutional. In it's own text. Chapter and verse. Show me the Article and Section in the US Constitution where secession is prohibited.

Stupid, naive Gunny, don't you know that once the all knowing folks at the supreme court deems anything and I mean anything constitutional, that makes it constitutional. In fact they themselves are the constitution, the living one :)


This is all starting to sound similar to that whole protestant reformation. Do we need priests to tell us what the constitutionn says or should we read it and interpret it ourselves?

jay_dub
11-21-2012, 10:33 AM
Check out the case Texas v. White

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

The supreme court states nullification and secession is unconstitutional

Texas v White is the ONLY case Anti-Secessionists can point to and it is so convoluted as to be laughable.

Texas v White was a case involving ownership of bonds. Secession has never been tried on its merits.

I participated in a discussion some time ago on this case. Here's the link for it.

http://jonathanturley.org/2011/09/11/texas-v-white/

I am 'Jim' on that board. In reading the discussion, you'll see just how the SCOTUS, Chase in particular, abused its judicial power and ignored long-held judicial processes in arriving at the decision they did.

As for the Indians and secession, below is a link to the Cherokee Declaration of Causes of Secession. They, and other tribes, willingly joined the Confederacy in seceding from any obligations and associations with the Union.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/cherokeecauses.htm

http://www.civilwarvirtualmuseum.org/1861-1862/native-americans-in-the-war/images/cherokee-braves-flag-medium.jpg

Chester Copperpot
11-21-2012, 10:53 AM
The supreme court stated secession was unconstitutional and stated the union was formed by the people, not the states. It is the precedent from the supreme court not me. I'm saying its also wrong if Native Americans have to be forced to secede if their reservations in the state don't want to. Houston was an example btw.

Yeah And the supreme court said Obamacare is constitutional too
IF the supreme court stated secession was unconstitutional then it MUST be CONSTITUTIONAL afterall..

fuck the federal govt.. including the SCOTUS... Theyre all a bunch of liars and hacks.... they can go fuck themselves

heavenlyboy34
11-21-2012, 11:08 AM
OK maybe you didn't understand the question. There are 7 Articles and 27 Amendments. I didn't ask for a court case. I asked for chapter and verse. Article number and section number. The Supreme Court doesn't say what's Constitutional. Unless you think Plessy v Ferguson was a good idea? The Constitution says what's Constitutional. In it's own text. Chapter and verse. Show me the Article and Section in the US Constitution where secession is prohibited.
Plus, I would argue that SCOTUS decisions that aren't subject to jury nullification or check of some kind are illegitimate, even by constitutionalist standards. Without that check, they're basically a small legislature.

A Son of Liberty
11-21-2012, 11:13 AM
Some people don't have the right to force other people to stay in a state; but those other people don't have the right to force the some people to leave one, either.

Gee. What a pickle. I wonder - oh, wonder - what the solution is?

robert68
11-21-2012, 11:16 AM
An interesting quote:




Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for "perpetual union" so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession. Anarchy would have been established, and not a government, by Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, and the other patriots of the Revolution.

—Robert E. Lee, letter, 23 January 1861 (http://radgeek.com/gt/2005/01/03/robert-e-lee-owned-slaves-and-defended-slavery/)

robert68
11-21-2012, 11:34 AM
That's funny, because every state had to ratify the Constitution individually and to voluntarily become part of the union. It wasn't put to a popular vote of the 13 colonies.

Those “states” that “individually ratified” the Constitution were just people from each state hand picked by the pro Constitution forces. It was entirely extralegal.

matt0611
11-21-2012, 11:49 AM
Those “states” that “individually ratified” the Constitution were just people from each state hand picked by the pro Constitution forces. It was entirely extralegal.

My point still stands, every state had to ratify the Constitution, there wasn't a popular vote of the 13 colonies or anything like that. The union did not "create the states", that notion is preposterous.

jay_dub
11-21-2012, 12:27 PM
My point still stands, every state had to ratify the Constitution, there wasn't a popular vote of the 13 colonies or anything like that. The union did not "create the states", that notion is preposterous.

I agree. It is beyond absurd to think that the Creation (the Union) would have supremacy over the Creator (the States).

robert68
11-21-2012, 02:20 PM
Please show me where, article and section, in the US Constitution that secession is prohibited to the states.

Where's an article and section in the US Constitution stating that a state can secede from the Union?

jay_dub
11-21-2012, 02:52 PM
Where's an article and section in the US Constitution stating that a state can secede from the Union?

Where in the UN Charter does it say we can leave the UN?

robert68
11-21-2012, 03:08 PM
Where in the UN Charter does it say we can leave the UN?

Don't know or care.

mad cow
11-21-2012, 03:48 PM
Where's an article and section in the US Constitution stating that a state can secede from the Union?

The 10th Amendment states this plain as day.

GunnyFreedom
11-21-2012, 06:32 PM
Where's an article and section in the US Constitution stating that a state can secede from the Union?

You do not understand the nature of the Constitution. The Constitution is a document of enumerated powers, as demonstrated by the 9th and 10th Amendments. The 10th Amendment says it explicitly.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Read the 10th Amendment carefully. It makes it very explicit that if the power to secede is not prohibited from the States by the Constitution (it's not) then it is reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

GunnyFreedom
11-21-2012, 06:39 PM
The 10th Amendment states this plain as day.

Yes, exactly. The Constitution doesn't give the people the right to grow potatoes either, and yet people manage to grow potatoes unmolested all the time. There is a pretty significant lack of understanding around here as to the nature of the US Constitution.

Origanalist
11-21-2012, 07:17 PM
Yes, exactly. The Constitution doesn't give the people the right to grow potatoes either, and yet people manage to grow potatoes unmolested all the time. There is a pretty significant lack of understanding around here as to the nature of the US Constitution.

Noooooo

juleswin
11-21-2012, 08:05 PM
You just might be a troll if......

You are serious arguing against the legality of secession on RPF. That is more democraticunderground than RPF, next thing you know they will start making pro stronger executive powers arguments.

robert68
11-21-2012, 11:30 PM
You do not understand the nature of the Constitution. The Constitution is a document of enumerated powers, as demonstrated by the 9th and 10th Amendments. The 10th Amendment says it explicitly.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Read the 10th Amendment carefully. It makes it very explicit that if the power to secede is not prohibited from the States by the Constitution (it's not) then it is reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I quite understand it. But no Articles, Sections, or Amendments were cited in the DiLorenzo's article or Ron Paul’s recent remarks as legal justifications for secession; this was part of what made me ask the question. They cited the DOI, which IIRC, the Supreme Court doesn't use as a legal basis in their rulings.

robert68
11-21-2012, 11:37 PM
My point still stands, every state had to ratify the Constitution, there wasn't a popular vote of the 13 colonies or anything like that. The union did not "create the states", that notion is preposterous.

There wasn't "a popular vote of the 13 colonies" or a legal ratification by every state.

fj45lvr
11-22-2012, 02:22 AM
The supreme court stated secession was unconstitutional and stated the union was formed by the people, not the states. It is the precedent from the supreme court not me. I'm saying its also wrong if Native Americans have to be forced to secede if their reservations in the state don't want to. Houston was an example btw.

and we believe what a few judges say as "truth"?? the "people" met in secret to form a constitution?? LOL

GunnyFreedom
11-22-2012, 11:11 AM
I quite understand it. But no Articles, Sections, or Amendments were cited in the DiLorenzo's article or Ron Paul’s recent remarks as legal justifications for secession; this was part of what made me ask the question. They cited the DOI, which IIRC, the Supreme Court doesn't use as a legal basis in their rulings.

Ok... then cite me the article and section that allows us to eat potatoes. or turkey for that matter.

You don't seem to understand the base nature of the US Constitution.

robert68
11-23-2012, 02:31 PM
...

You don't seem to understand the base nature of the US Constitution.

Then neither does Ron Paul, because he never mentioned the 10th or any Amendments in either his written statement on the subject here (http://paul.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2029:secession-are-we-free-to-go&catid=64:2012-texas-straight-talk&Itemid=69), or his audio address on the same here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ggyd70SFI0&feature=plcp).

I never said the 10th Amendment wasn’t a legal justification for secession. But evidently asking a simple question on this subject is politically incorrect with you.

GunnyFreedom
11-23-2012, 02:53 PM
Then neither does Ron Paul, because he never mentioned the 10th or any Amendments in either his written statement on the subject here (http://paul.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2029:secession-are-we-free-to-go&catid=64:2012-texas-straight-talk&Itemid=69), or his audio address on the same here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ggyd70SFI0&feature=plcp).

I never said the 10th Amendment wasn’t a legal justification for secession. But evidently asking a simple question on this subject is politically incorrect with you.

No, asking where in the Constitution it allows States to do "X" demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of the US Constitution. It is not in the nature of the document to list what states can do. It lists what the Federal Government can do, and anything not listed it cannot do. Then it lists what the States cannot do, and anything not listed the states can.

I have never heard Ron Paul once say otherwise, so please do not confuse your own misunderstanding with the understanding of Ron Paul.

greenghost1964
11-23-2012, 04:16 PM
Well the power of the people, who according to many says when the Gov't because oppressive/overbearing/etc.......the whole purpose of the 2nd Admendment......to refresh said Gov't......YOU DON'T ask to do that.......you just do it.......like in 1775......but is that right for this time.......maybe not.......but who wants to live like 1960 era Cuba either? Waiting for the knock on the door in the middle of the night.........