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donnay
11-19-2012, 09:38 PM
My Adventures in Second-Hand Smoke

Thomas Ruppenthal
lewrockwell.com (http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/ruppenthal1.1.1.html)
November 19, 2012

Recently the fates wafted me upon a cloud of second-hand smoke onto a national television show.

Let me explain.

I grew up during the time when smoking was very common and occurred everywhere. I spent my first eighteen years enveloped in tobacco smoke as my father smoked constantly – only a pipe or a cigar and never a cigarette, but constantly. Living in Milwaukee, our home was nearly hermetically sealed for seven or eight months and so we inhaled second-hand smoke with every breath. My brother, my sister and myself all grew up to be non-smokers. Somehow my smoking father lived for a physically healthy 96 years; my mother reached 87 even after spending most of her life smoking second-hand.

When the demonizing of second-hand smoke began, I never believed it since I had grown up very healthy as did my elder brother (who is healthy and in his 70s) and my sister (like myself) is in her 60s. Humans are much tougher than wisps of smoke.

As the do-gooder, anti-tobacco forces continued their relentless march toward tobacco prohibition, which is certainly their goal but which they mask by fighting against second-hand smoke, I began to smoke. Only an occasional smoke at first but as the authoritarians banned smoking nearly everywhere, I smoked more and began enjoying it and now I smoke 3 or 4 cigarettes every evening. I find it relaxing physically but also mentally stimulating – not that different that a cup of coffee, except that coffee isn’t demonized (at this moment).

However a month ago I learned that the City Council in my hometown of San Rafael, Ca. was about to enact a law making it illegal to smoke in your own home if you shared even a single wall with another unit. Even if you owned a condo, you wouldn’t be allowed to smoke in it. A co-worker, who also lives in San Rafael and who smokes more than I do, announced that she would go to the Council meeting and speak out, and she asked me to attend too. I agreed to go, happy to support anyone standing up against government intrusion.

Before the meeting, I studied the proposed tobacco ban online and found that it was primarily based upon an EPA report from 1993; being me, I Googled, found the report and quickly saw how flawed and unscientific the report (or at least its summary) was.

It was based entirely upon analysis of epidemiological studies and I know how easily such data can be manipulated and how easy it is to ignore any study that doesn’t agree with the desired result. Also the summary seemed to lack any doubts about the conclusion that second-hand smoke causes cancer and other serious illnesses. Period. The scientists have spoken so go away and obey! It reminded me of reports from the global warming scam – full of dire predictions while stressing that the science was complete and no one, unless in the pay of oil companies, could doubt it. Well I doubted that “science” and I doubted this too. Since the 1993 report often cited the 1986 Surgeon General’s Report, I then went and read the 300+ plus pages of that report which again contained no original research but only an analysis of published studies.

It too was obviously anti-tobacco and in the summary Dr. C. Everett Koop condemned second-hand smoke as a cause of disease, including lung cancer, in healthy nonsmokers. However as I read the entire report, it was clear that the epidemiological studies did not conclusively prove much of anything as they had too much room for bias, that the numbers involved were often too small, that the results were often inconclusive and that there were far too many confounders including diet, exercise, genetic influences, occupation, vitamin D levels and more. And all of the studies were of nonsmoking spouses who lived with a smoker and so could be breathing smoke 24/7. And the report further stated that living in a home with second-hand smoke was the equivalent of smoking 0.1 up to 1.0 cigarette a day, which I hardly found to be a cause for alarm.

Looking again at the 1993 EPA report, it rated second-hand smoke as Group A pollutant (and no, this A is not a good score) including it with 15 other pollutants, including asbestos, radon, and benzene yet only secondhand smoke, according to the summary, had actually been shown in studies to cause cancer at typical environmental levels. Furthermore, the EPA estimated that approximately 3,000 American nonsmokers die each year from lung cancer caused by secondhand smoke. This number was essentially made up by the EPA – but still it was only in regard to living with a smoker.

(To my amazement I later found a report from the National Cancer Institute that claimed second-hand smoke was responsible for 49,500 deaths per year – a number beyond belief except that people actually seemed to believe it, including at least one doctor as I was to find out).

So I arrived at the San Rafael Council meeting early and found my associate studying her notebook preparing herself; however, she wondered if and when public comment would be allowed. So I went up to ask one of the Councilmembers and he directed me to speak with Mayor Phillips which I did and the Mayor assured me that they would allow time for comment.

After a few minutes of other business, the Mayor opened to floor to comment prior to a vote and he stared directly at me. My friend suddenly got lost in her notebook and wouldn’t move so I had to rise and walk to the podium.

I began by summarizing how much the government has intruded into our lives over the course of my life and how they have lately come right into our homes as they told us what kind of toilets to use, what kind of appliances, what light bulbs and even what sort of bag we could use to carry our food home in (San Rafael had earlier in the year banned plastic carry-bags in grocery stores). I then looked at the five supervisors and called their proposed smoking ban to be an act tyranny as it was an unjust and arbitrary use of power, in this case using false science to basically ban an act that some people found annoying. After all, the science only studied non-smokers living with a smoker and breathing smoky air 24/7 and never mentioned or even considered any problem with a whiff of smoke drifting over to reach a neighbor’s nose. Lights on the podium began flashing, telling me that my time was running out. I quickly stated that they were heading down a dangerous path by banning something that merely annoyed others and I mentioned the growing number of rabid vegetarians in our area and of reading a scientific study that showed barbecuing meat released known carcinogens into the air. If this smoking ban was passed based on false science, then soon, if the number of vegetarians continued growing, barbecuing could be made illegal and then possibly extended to even ban cooking meat in homes. Did they want that?

All the podium lights flashed as my two minutes ended and I had to return to my seat not having mentioned studies that showed tobacco smoke protecting against Alzheimer’s, Dementia and Parkinson’s and would San Rafael be open to lawsuits from people who were forced to quit smoking and who then developed these diseases? Oh well.

My still silent friend remained engrossed in her notebook while a number of feeble, frightened-looking women came up to comment and they all basically thanked the politicians for helping make our clean air cleaner still and for protecting innocent people from the health dangers of second-hand smoke.

I assumed that the Council would reject the fatuous feeble females and refuse to be tyrants, but yet again I was wrong. The Council voted unanimously to ban smoking in any multi-unit complex. Who needed science, logic or a respect for personal freedom when you have the power of political correctness. Right about then, my friend told me she was now ready to speak and she couldn’t believe that the ban had already been passed.

It was during all this that a woman came up to ask my name and I wrote it down for her, thinking she was a reporter for our local give-away paper. However it turned out she was a stringer for Reuter’s and soon the ban and my comments were in newspapers and on the internet. A few days later I received a call from a segment producer from the nationally syndicated television show, “The Doctors” and she asked if I might be interested in being on the program. I said sure and then went off on a fifteen minute rant about freedom, personal responsibility, politicized science and probably more. I figured that would be the end of that.

Wrong. A couple of days later she emailed me asking for a couple of recent photos which I sent her while thinking that would certainly be the end as they couldn’t want someone who looked like me on their show.

Wrong again.

Suddenly last Friday morning at 9:00 a.m., I was seated in the front row of the studio audience of “The Doctors” about to face four doctors who I was pretty certain would not be agreeing with me. Next to me sat a nice woman from San Rafael who was for the ban. She had an 8×10 photo of her dead husband, a “victim” of smoking. Not second-hand smoke, smoking.

I knew that I was being set up as the bad guy (and I realized how bad-guyish I must have sounded during my telephone rant and how bad-guyish I must look with my beard) and that I would be set upon by a gang of four doctors. I knew all this but had gone ahead, hoping to make at least one or two points against government and for freedom. I half expected that while in make-up they would stick horns on my head. They didn’t but maybe they would do it in post production.

Earlier, backstage, three different producers or assistants had come up to me to stress that I shouldn’t try to converse as if having a discussion, but rather I should be animated, make my points, not be gentlemanly, interrupt and argue if necessary. It all was a bit like telling a dog how to bark.

As I sat in the front row I mentally rehearsed a few points that I wanted to make – too much government, too much lying government, bad science, vengeful vegetarians, benefits of smoking, and that no matter what laws were passed and what things were banned, we were all going to die and that I would much rather slightly increase my chance of a heart attack if I could greatly increase my chance of not getting Alzheimer’s. I hoped I was ready.

The countdown began, the music increased, lights, camera, action and the four doctors came onto the stage to loud applause. I felt a bit like a bull at a bullfight – undoubtedly doomed but intending to do a bit of goring on the way.

Dr. Travis Stork in the young, handsome doctor, the main man, the star and he introduced our segment. Up came video of the Council meeting and the five politicians voting unanimously to pass the smoking ban. Then a shot of someone who looked like me, only the camera had been above me and off to the side and I think the video had been tampered with because I looked bad and my anti-tyrranical words sounded bad, maybe slowed down to make me sound a bit retarded.

Or at least I hoped it had been tampered with.

Travis then introduces the woman seated next to me who approved of the ban and who held up the photo of her dearly departed. Travis nodded sympathetically, then quoted the 49,000 annual deaths due to second-hand smoking and turned to me. How could I oppose? Nice introduction.

I was a bit stunned, but I knew that this was my one chance so I opened with freedom, stating my belief that in America a person’s home should be a person’s castle, and the government should stay out!

I may have said more but the doctors attacked. “Yes, We agree in principle, but the second-hand smoke reaches and effects other people. Society has a right to protect itself.”

I informed them that the studies on second-hand smoke was based upon non-smoking spouses living and breathing with a smoker. 24/7. For years. Decades. It’s dishonest. Wrong. Insane.

Soon all four doctors were talking loudly and very animatedly at me and I interrupted and argued back. It seemed to morph into Jerry Springer. Travis came out to me and handed me a pair of medical gloves. Were we going to duke it out?

I can’t remember what all happened but people told me it was good television. I hope to see it.

I’m sure that there’s a lesson to be learned from all this. It could be that speaking up in public might lead to being on a mediocre television show or speaking up might lead to being made a fool of on a mediocre television show.

It might air on Tuesday, November 20. Unless I’m cut. Or altered beyond recognition in post.

angelatc
11-19-2012, 09:41 PM
I really don't like people any more.

Brian4Liberty
11-19-2012, 09:59 PM
I grew up during the time when smoking was very common and occurred everywhere. I spent my first eighteen years enveloped in tobacco smoke as my father smoked constantly – only a pipe or a cigar and never a cigarette, but constantly.


If we were to nitpick, there's a bit of a difference between cigarettes and other forms of tobacco.

angelatc
11-19-2012, 10:02 PM
I grew up with a smoking parent, in an era where people smoked in elevators, movie theaters, and everywhere else you can think of. Now, the letters to the editor here bitch about people smoking in their own cars at the drive-in.

This country isn't worth saving.

Origanalist
11-19-2012, 11:27 PM
I read the whole thing with a wry grin. None of this surprises me, but it's a great story anyway. Yes, this is how the media works, and none of us should be surprised.

In fact, the thing that should be surprising is that people are stupid enough to base anything on what they hear in the media.



I also find it surprising that anybody living in San Rafael would be taken by surprise by political correctness.

This is Marin County.
:rolleyes:

Origanalist
11-19-2012, 11:40 PM
I really don't like people any more.

Dirty, rotten, backstabbing, lying, cheating, swindling lowlife cockroaches.

But there are also kind, selfless, incredibly smart and descent people.

The hard part sometimes is figuring out which.

Anti Federalist
11-19-2012, 11:56 PM
Funny how fickle the winds of public acceptance are.

40 years ago two men smoking tobacco was a normal and socially accepted adult behavior.

40 years ago two men smoking dick was an abnormal and socially unacceptable adult behavior.

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 12:00 AM
Uff da

liberty2897
11-20-2012, 12:12 AM
Funny how fickle the winds of public acceptance are.

40 years ago two men smoking tobacco was a normal and socially accepted adult behavior.

40 years ago two men smoking dick was an abnormal and socially unacceptable adult behavior.

I think "light" cigarettes were the turning point...

http://www.vintageadsandstuff.com/viewwinston31.jpeg

Anti Federalist
11-20-2012, 12:17 AM
LOL

Of course, a sailor.

You and Danke related?

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2012, 12:59 AM
The Council voted unanimously to ban smoking in any multi-unit complex.

Well, you give up many things when you live in a condo in California. You are ruled by the most petty, tyrannical and power-mad level of government known to man, the HOA. Forget about your sub-woofer on your stereo.

As for smoking, it's more the odor than a health concern, unless someone has some severe lung disorder. People in California have their windows open 350/365 days. Your neighbor's window may be 5 feet below your bedroom window, and it can literally smell like someone is smoking at the foot of your bed when the atmospheric conditions are right (especially nice at 3 am). Not that laws are necessary, but it does require a certain level of "communication" between neighbors, to solve any number of issues that might effect other residents of the beehive. ;)

Certain cooking in condos could be in the same category. Too much curry or microwaved fish-heads are sometimes objectionable. What separates cooking from smoking is the demonization of smoking. Beyond odors, there are also some people that practice some sort of primal howling at sun-up. They think it's good for the lungs and gets the blood flowing. The less laws the better. The more people the better is debatable.

John F Kennedy III
11-20-2012, 03:01 AM
You'd think howling like a wolf at 6am in a condo building would be more hazardous to your health than smoking.

tod evans
11-20-2012, 05:22 AM
Funny how fickle the winds of public acceptance are.

40 years ago two men smoking tobacco was a normal and socially accepted adult behavior.

40 years ago two men smoking dick was an abnormal and socially unacceptable adult behavior.

And this is exactly what a few decades of political correctness combined with media hype will get ya'..


Waiting for the apologists to come marching in...:rolleyes:

Natural Citizen
11-20-2012, 06:42 AM
I don't know about the whole second hand smoke popularization all of a sudden except from the speak the op was referencing. I do hear non smokers complaining about smokers frequently though. A lot lately, in fact. I know some folks who even smoke those e thingamabobs now and are quite content with them. And people still complain. Even though they are essentially huffing water vapor. So...I don't know. seems like another meme on their part.

Here's my experience though. I lived my entire youth in a home with two parents who smoked. Sometimes even family lived with us growing up who smoked as well. Dad even worked in the tobacco fields down south so he had his fix. And they smoked a lot. Right in front of me. In the car, in the house, at the table...wherever.

Later on in my high school years I decide to run track. Some distance running in soccer too.Heck, the warm up run alone was almost 4 miles. Not counting the brutal workout in between. And I was always up front. My track career yielded 16 county, 16 regional and a state championship and got a free education out of it. Later in life, I've produced a national baseball prospect with the same basic list of accomplishments looking back. Except he got to win a national title as well along the way and has a very real shot at mlb in some manner or another.

So, the moral of that is not to say lookit me. Just saying that I was surrounded by these toxins all of my young life. Didn't affect the future.

Bruno
11-20-2012, 07:53 AM
"First, they came for the pot smokers, but I did nothing, as I was not a pot smoker..."

Where were all the outraged cigarette smokers when others' freedom to put in their own bodies what they wanted to was at stake? Oh, not their drug of choice, so it didn't matter at the time? Got it.

RockEnds
11-20-2012, 08:46 AM
My (natural) dad died of lung cancer about 3 years ago. It was a very, very quick thing. One day he was on vacation in Europe. The next he was in intensive care. Literally, that's how it happened. He was dead in 4 months.

They tried to suggest it was from 2nd hand smoke. Somehow, they never suggested it might have something to do with him installing and repairing radiation machines. Prolly 'cuz he installed theirs.

Yep. It was that evil 2nd hand smoke. Uh huh.

brooks009
11-20-2012, 08:57 AM
I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

donnay
11-20-2012, 08:59 AM
It's all about control. They get the people wound up with lies and pseudo science and allow the non-smokers to attack the smokers--it's worked like a charm for them. Divide and conquer!

Next it will be the fat people...

tod evans
11-20-2012, 09:02 AM
I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

I can die from you driving your car..

I'm sorry you have asthma, have you learned to control it?

I'm sure like every other asthma sufferer on the planet airborne dust/pollen/pollution/and aromatic vapors from dozens of common chemicals constrict your airways........Do you consider all of these "assault" too?

brooks009
11-20-2012, 09:08 AM
I can die from you driving your car..

If I hit you with my car yes that is assault.


I'm sure like every other asthma sufferer on the planet airborne dust/pollen/pollution/and aromatic vapors from dozens of common chemicals constrict your airways........Do you consider all of these "assault" too?

Yes, if I have a neighbor for example and he is messing with toxic chemicals and they blow into my yard and I breathe them I would consider that assault.

tod evans
11-20-2012, 09:14 AM
If I hit you with my car yes that is assault.
Yes, if I have a neighbor for example and he is messing with toxic chemicals and they blow into my yard and I breathe them I would consider that assault.

How about smoke from a burnt roast in the oven?

Pot smoke?

Leaves?

BBQ?

Exhaust from engines?

Life is full of smoke and odors, if you have issues with life then I wish you well in the bubble you seek to create.

Peace Piper
11-20-2012, 09:28 AM
It's all about control. They get the people wound up with lies and pseudo science and allow the non-smokers to attack the smokers--it's worked like a charm for them. Divide and conquer!

Next it will be the fat people...


DemocRat Underground: "tax unhealthy food/drinks/products"

"Insuring everyone in this country is going to be incredibly expensive until we start getting people healthier and skinnier. There are a lot of people who have obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes through no fault of their own. But for many people, those conditions are their fault as a result of their diet.

Unless you enjoy paying higher health care costs due to people's poor diet and habits, we need to start taxing unhealthy food/drink products. We can use the money to either help pay for universal healthcare, or use the money to subsidize healthy foods so they are cheaper. We should also figure out which vitamins/ supplements help people the most and encourage people to take them--by offering them at free or reduced costs.

And we need to ensure poor people have easy access to healthy products to they won't get hit extra hard by these regulations

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021827813

brandon
11-20-2012, 09:32 AM
Sure, 2nd hand smoke dangers are sometimes, even often, exaggerated. Yes, I too can share anecdotal evidence of a life time of smoking having few ill effects. But it's still common sense, and common courtesy to not smoke around people. I don't even like smoking around my dog.

Did the author of the article really say he started smoking just because the government didn't want him to? Or did I misread that?

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 09:35 AM
DemocRat Underground: "tax unhealthy food/drinks/products"

"Insuring everyone in this country is going to be incredibly expensive until we start getting people healthier and skinnier. There are a lot of people who have obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes through no fault of their own. But for many people, those conditions are their fault as a result of their diet.

Unless you enjoy paying higher health care costs due to people's poor diet and habits, we need to start taxing unhealthy food/drink products. We can use the money to either help pay for universal healthcare, or use the money to subsidize healthy foods so they are cheaper. We should also figure out which vitamins/ supplements help people the most and encourage people to take them--by offering them at free or reduced costs.

And we need to ensure poor people have easy access to healthy products to they won't get hit extra hard by these regulations

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021827813

You aren't advocating this, right?

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 09:37 AM
You'd think howling like a wolf at 6am in a condo building would be more hazardous to your health than smoking.

You never know what you might attract doing that.

donnay
11-20-2012, 09:47 AM
Sure, 2nd hand smoke dangers are sometimes, even often, exaggerated. Yes, I too can share anecdotal evidence of a life time of smoking having few ill effects. But it's still common sense, and common courtesy to not smoke around people. I don't even like smoking around my dog.

Did the author of the article really say he started smoking just because the government didn't want him to? Or did I misread that?


Then some pseudo science study will say wood fires from chimneys are causing pollution (some states they are already pushing it). My point is these are all, pardon the pun, smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is all about control.

jay_dub
11-20-2012, 10:21 AM
I'm a smoker and I don't like smelling the smoke that comes off the end of a cigarette. That stuff is nasty. Of course, I'm talking about commercial cigarettes...the ones that are chock full of every noxious thing known to man.

I make my own, as does my wife. They don't stink like the commercial smokes do.

Funny how it was about the same time (at least it seems to me) that we were starting to get warned about second hand smoke and getting the warnings on the packs is about the time cigarettes ceased to be just tobacco wrapped in a paper.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2012, 10:23 AM
You'd think howling like a wolf at 6am in a condo building would be more hazardous to your health than smoking.

They try to hide when they do it. I found one guy. ;)

angelatc
11-20-2012, 10:31 AM
Then some pseudo science study will say wood fires from chimneys are causing pollution (some states they are already pushing it). My point is these are all, pardon the pun, smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is all about control.

Exactly right. Humanity has taken a horrible shift in a single generation, and smoking exemplifies it. It used to be considered polite to smile endure the bad habits of both the general public as well as houseguests. Now it's considered acceptable, desirable even, to demand that other people behave to suit your expectations. No smoking, take your shoes off before you come in, no meat, no liquor, no perfume, no seafood....whatever people want, they feel absolutely entitled to demand from other people.

tod evans
11-20-2012, 10:39 AM
Exactly right. Humanity has taken a horrible shift in a single generation, and smoking exemplifies it. It used to be considered polite to smile endure the bad habits of both the general public as well as houseguests. Now it's considered acceptable, desirable even, to demand that other people behave to suit your expectations. No smoking, take your shoes off before you come in, no meat, no liquor, no perfume, no seafood....whatever people want, they feel absolutely entitled to demand from other people.

And the toe of my boot will be well planted on their way right back out the door they came in...

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2012, 10:51 AM
Then some pseudo science study will say wood fires from chimneys are causing pollution (some states they are already pushing it). My point is these are all, pardon the pun, smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is all about control.

:D


Woodsmoke pollution

Smoke from wood heaters is a major cause of air pollution. In fact, during winter, wood heaters can produce up to seven times as much particle pollution as cars. Not only is a smoking fire wasting your money, but the air pollution it causes can also affect our health.

That's why we need to change the way we use our heaters.

Woodsmoke contains a number of noxious gases (including carbon monoxide, oxides of nitrogen, and a range of organic compounds, some of which are toxic or carcinogenic) and fine particles, which go deep into the lungs.

Influence of topography and the weather

Weather patterns during the winter months, together with the increase in woodsmoke, influence air quality.

Wind, temperature and sunlight all have an impact on the movement and dispersion of particle pollution. Temperature inversions, where pollution is trapped in a cold layer of air at ground level, can also have an impact.

www.environment.nsw.gov.au/woodsmoke/

belian78
11-20-2012, 11:08 AM
I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

I'm sure it's been said already but, 'because ya know, you can't just walk away'. right? :rolleyes:

*edit* No, doesn't look like it has been said. I'm now a nonsmoker after smoking for over 15 years, but you will never ever see me demonize someone for their vice. I can't stand to smell it anymore, but if I'm out in public I can always walk away the same as you can. You can't exactly walk away from someone punching you in the face.

belian78
11-20-2012, 11:12 AM
Sure, 2nd hand smoke dangers are sometimes, even often, exaggerated. Yes, I too can share anecdotal evidence of a life time of smoking having few ill effects. But it's still common sense, and common courtesy to not smoke around people. I don't even like smoking around my dog.

Did the author of the article really say he started smoking just because the government didn't want him to? Or did I misread that?
From what I understood, he wasn't a smoker but with all the hubub he decided to try it and found that he enjoyed a few in the evenings.

Michelangelo
11-20-2012, 11:38 AM
I'm sure it's been said already but, 'because ya know, you can't just walk away'. right? :rolleyes:

*edit* No, doesn't look like it has been said. I'm now a nonsmoker after smoking for over 15 years, but you will never ever see me demonize someone for their vice. I can't stand to smell it anymore, but if I'm out in public I can always walk away the same as you can. You can't exactly walk away from someone punching you in the face.

I have asthma as well and I agree that all these anti-smoking laws are hogwash, but we can't always just walk away. There are public spaces where we have to go through or be in. In these instances I do believe that anti-smoking rules should be implemented; although ideally I would prefer to privatize these public spaces altogether and let the owners decide the rules. Smoking in restaurants, homes, etc etc. should be up for their owners to decide. Most public spaces are large enough where you can indeed just walk away or ask someone to stop smoking - but there are also major walkways which are harder to avoid. This is especially a problem if you live in a highly urban community and walking is your main means of transport.

Dr.3D
11-20-2012, 11:45 AM
Then some pseudo science study will say wood fires from chimneys are causing pollution (some states they are already pushing it). My point is these are all, pardon the pun, smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is all about control.
I live across the expressway from a "camp ground" and every night in the summer the smoke from that place blows over to my place and makes me gag. I knew the place was there when I moved in, so I can't complain. I just wish people didn't feel the need to have a campfire every night.

Anti Federalist
11-20-2012, 01:01 PM
How about smoke from a burnt roast in the oven?

Pot smoke?

Leaves?

BBQ?

Exhaust from engines?

Life is full of smoke and odors, if you have issues with life then I wish you well in the bubble you seek to create.

This, +1776

I'm sorry some folks are sick, but c'mon...are you seriously suggesting that people should be arrested for assault for farting or sneezing.

'Cos that's absurd.

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 01:04 PM
This, +1776

I'm sorry some folks are sick, but c'mon...are you seriously suggesting that people should be arrested for assault for farting or sneezing.

'Cos that's absurd.

I dunno, some flatulence can be pretty lethal.

Anti Federalist
11-20-2012, 01:24 PM
I'm a devout Muslim/Jew/Vegan.

Your cooking odors of meat/bacon is offensive to me.

Cooking of meat is now banned.

tod evans
11-20-2012, 01:38 PM
I smoke a pipe and I respect others............until they tell me what they think I should be doing.

At that point all respect goes out the window and the cave man comes out...

dannno
11-20-2012, 01:41 PM
I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

I have asthma, too. I smoke weed, it helps a lot with my asthma, you should try it. I believe it will help alleviate some of your tyrannical behavior as well.

Maybe if somebody is smoking cigs you should leave the area, that's what I do when something bothers me.

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 01:47 PM
I have asthma, too. I smoke weed, it helps a lot with my asthma, you should try it. It believe it will help alleviate some of your tyrannical behavior as well.

Maybe if somebody is smoking cigs you should leave the area, that's what I do when something bothers me.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dannno again.

tod evans
11-20-2012, 01:54 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dannno again.

Covered.


Hmmm, A naturally occurring bronchodilator that helps with aggressive anxiety.....Betcha a nickle there's an excuse not to try it..

coastie
11-20-2012, 02:15 PM
I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

YEAH! That will stop it! Then, you can go cut down the remaining trees from the forest fire by your home, after all-they could've assaulted you with their potential smoke from a future fire.:rolleyes:

Same as punching you in the face, lmao. Sounds to me that's something that you should've experienced at one point or another in your life. Stay patient, I'm sure one's in your near future if this is how you think.;)

Bossobass
11-20-2012, 02:25 PM
49,400 deaths per year from secondhand smoke exposure




Death rate extrapolations for USA for Automobile accidents injury: 42,443 per year, 3,536 per month, 816 per week, 116 per day, 4 per hour, 0 per minute, 0 per second. Note: this extrapolation calculation uses the deaths statistic: 42,443 deaths in USA 2001 (CDC); 42,401 deaths reported in USA 1999 for "motor vehicle accidents" (NVSR Sep 2001); 41,804 deaths in 2000 (CDC);




Incidence extrapolations for USA for Automobile accidents injury: 4,563,000 per year, 380,250 per month, 87,750 per week, 12,501 per day, 520 per hour, 8 per minute, 0 per second. Note: this extrapolation calculation uses the incidence statistic: 4,563,000 cases requiring emergency department visits in 2000 (CDC)

So, when are they gonna ban driving?

PaulConventionWV
11-20-2012, 02:27 PM
If we were to nitpick, there's a bit of a difference between cigarettes and other forms of tobacco.

I think it's a bit more than a nitpick to point out the difference between a plant (tobacco) and a plant with additives like mercury, cyanide, rat poison, etc. Seriously, why do so many people seem to ignore this difference?

coastie
11-20-2012, 02:51 PM
I think it's a bit more than a nitpick to point out the difference between a plant (tobacco) and a plant with additives like mercury, cyanide, rat poison, etc. Seriously, why do so many people seem to ignore this difference?

You forgot carpet glue..which is what they put in the new MANDATED "fire safe" smokes that supposedly go out(they don't, and burn HOTTER than "traditional" rat poison based smokes). The additives are there because of the .gov, research it.

I roll my own now, 100% tobacco.

RockEnds
11-20-2012, 02:56 PM
Eww. Ya'll are making me glad that I roll my own from organic loose tobacco. And I'll confess, it does bother me to be around a store bought cigarette, but I can leave. I can't recall ever leaving a place because of tobacco smoke, but I could.

jbauer
11-20-2012, 03:07 PM
I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

Agree, I've got the same problem. Its bad enough that if I get put in a hotel room that is "non-smoking" but has been smoked in )cleaned with their smoke cleaning chemicals) I will have a rough couple days ahead. If it happens and coencides with a cold I will miss work over it.

jbauer
11-20-2012, 03:11 PM
Exactly right. Humanity has taken a horrible shift in a single generation, and smoking exemplifies it. It used to be considered polite to smile endure the bad habits of both the general public as well as houseguests. Now it's considered acceptable, desirable even, to demand that other people behave to suit your expectations. No smoking, take your shoes off before you come in, no meat, no liquor, no perfume, no seafood....whatever people want, they feel absolutely entitled to demand from other people.

You come in my house or car and I'll demand whatever the heck I want to demand.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2012, 05:11 PM
I think it's a bit more than a nitpick to point out the difference between a plant (tobacco) and a plant with additives like mercury, cyanide, rat poison, etc. Seriously, why do so many people seem to ignore this difference?

Yeah, they tend to ignore those things. Here's an analogy:

Wine:
http://www.bloomberg.com/image/iYqrBd9pbha0.jpg

Not Wine:
https://static.flickr.com/96/229318869_1bfcb61e6d.jpg

Dr.3D
11-20-2012, 05:12 PM
Yeah, they tend to ignore those things. Here's an analogy:

Wine:
http://www.bloomberg.com/image/iYqrBd9pbha0.jpg

Not Wine:
https://static.flickr.com/96/229318869_1bfcb61e6d.jpg
Oh... one is real fermented wine and the other is Koo-laid with added alcohol.

Tpoints
11-20-2012, 05:18 PM
I really don't like people any more.

you an equal opportunity disliker?

angelatc
11-20-2012, 05:19 PM
I have asthma as well and I agree that all these anti-smoking laws are hogwash, but we can't always just walk away.

I suppose staying home is out of the question, too.

This is symptomatic of the shift in American values I was discussing. Previously, people with disabilities didn't want to be a burden, didn't want other people to modify their behavior on their behalf. Now, they angrily demand it.

angelatc
11-20-2012, 05:22 PM
You come in my house or car and I'll demand whatever the heck I want to demand.

Of course, and that's my point. People used to enjoy being good hosts, which meant putting their guests ahead of themselves.

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 06:05 PM
Of course, and that's my point. People used to enjoy being good hosts, which meant putting their guests ahead of themselves.

Seems so long ago. Could it be the people who demand everybody modify their behavior to accommodate them might be part of the reason this custom has faded?

tod evans
11-20-2012, 06:09 PM
It comes from the same place as such comments as this;

"Your smoke is polluting my air"

torchbearer
11-20-2012, 06:09 PM
Of course, and that's my point. People used to enjoy being good hosts, which meant putting their guests ahead of themselves.


i thought that may have been cultural.
In the area i grew up in.. this is custom.
guest are honored.

tod evans
11-20-2012, 06:14 PM
i thought that may have been cultural.
In the area i grew up in.. this is custom.
guest are honored.

It is common practice to honor guests in polite society everywhere.

Pockets of impolite people tend to congregate in urban areas..

angelatc
11-20-2012, 06:18 PM
Seems so long ago. Could it be the people who demand everybody modify their behavior to accommodate them might be part of the reason this custom has faded?

It hasn't faded entirely. When people come over, I put out ashtrays. I can't remember the last time anybody used one though - they all step outside to smoke. I think that as long as I make the offer, then they're free to do whatever makes them comfortable. Sometimes I'd secretly prefer they just smoke inside (card games come to mind) but if they're more comfortable outside, a hostess can only make sure that there's shelter and ashtrays outside, too.

And the two traits aren't mutually exclusive. I know two people who were invited to functions where then-President Bush was "hosting," and they both said they were surprised at how attentive he was. He ran around all night, making small talk, and making sure people had enough to eat and drink. I don't think any of us would make the case that he wasn't a control freak.

Like marriage though, even simple etiquette is quickly becoming a trait much more commonly found in the upper classes than the lower. And there's always been a plentiful supply of boors. It's just that they used to not get invited back, but now they never seem to leave.

donnay
11-20-2012, 06:30 PM
You come in my house or car and I'll demand whatever the heck I want to demand.


It's a matter of being civil about it. Most people are not civil anymore they demand way too much and EXPECT laws to protect them.

Seraphim
11-20-2012, 06:35 PM
Sorry dude, you're wrong.

Ask the person to leave or leave yourself.

It's not even remotely close to assault. If you tell them you have asthma and the person pins you down and blows smoke in your face... THAT'S assault.

You having asthma does not qualify nearby smokers as VIOLENT OFFENDERS.

I seriously hope you're trolling.


I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

Anti Federalist
11-20-2012, 06:49 PM
Of course, and that's my point. People used to enjoy being good hosts, which meant putting their guests ahead of themselves.

I vaguely recall that...it used to be called "manners", right?

Anti Federalist
11-20-2012, 06:50 PM
Wine?

http://www.american-trading.com/beverages/images/md2020.jpg

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 06:53 PM
Wine?

http://www.american-trading.com/beverages/images/md2020.jpg

Want some cheese with that wine?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ulNxnxOE3es/TTunB3A30nI/AAAAAAAAAWA/Ga_VIr86HAg/s320/Processed+Cheese.jpg

angelatc
11-20-2012, 07:13 PM
Wine?

http://www.american-trading.com/beverages/images/md2020.jpg

Kids, the correct answer is "Yes, thank you!" or "No, Thank you," and not "That cheap crap gives me a headache!"

Anti Federalist
11-20-2012, 07:38 PM
Want some cheese with that wine?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ulNxnxOE3es/TTunB3A30nI/AAAAAAAAAWA/Ga_VIr86HAg/s320/Processed+Cheese.jpg

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/41/82835383_268d6c3d67_z.jpg

Origanalist
11-20-2012, 07:52 PM
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/41/82835383_268d6c3d67_z.jpg


http://l.yimg.com/ck/image/A5457/54577/470_54577.jpg

tod evans
11-20-2012, 07:55 PM
My morning coffee's so strong it might as well be...



http://l.yimg.com/ck/image/A5457/54577/470_54577.jpg

donnay
11-20-2012, 08:02 PM
http://wehrman.labfire.com/fineart/images/wc-wine_cheese.jpg


A nice Chanti and Cheese with some Fava beans. [hisses]

Qdog
11-20-2012, 08:06 PM
I have asthma. I see smoking as physical assault. Same as punching me in my face (maybe worse because I can die from it). Like assault it should be illegal.

I like peanut butter sandwhiches. If I eat a peanut butter sandwich in public am I "assaulting" someone with a peanut allergy? Grow a spine. The whole world is not going to cater to your speecial disability. If its that big of a problem then why doesn't exhaust from automobiles kill you? You could also wear a facemask.

Brian4Liberty
11-20-2012, 09:11 PM
Wine?

http://www.american-trading.com/beverages/images/md2020.jpg

Not wine, but cigarettes pair well with that beverage.

KCIndy
11-20-2012, 09:36 PM
Kids, the correct answer is "Yes, thank you!" or "No, Thank you," and not "That cheap crap gives me a headache!"

LOL!! That's gonna be a tough order for any "wine snob" to follow!

But of course, you're right.

Antischism
11-20-2012, 11:05 PM
Privately owned areas should be able to dictate whether or not smoking is allowed. However, when in public, smoking is perfectly fine because you have the ability to simply walk away. If anything, as a human, you can politely ask the smoker to put out their cigarette if you have health issues and you're in a situation where you can't get away from the smoke. If people want to denigrate their bodies with all the harmful additives, they have the right to do so as long as it's in their own private location or in public outdoor spaces.

dannno
11-20-2012, 11:31 PM
Privately owned areas should be able to dictate whether or not smoking is allowed. However, when in public, smoking is perfectly fine because you have the ability to simply walk away. If anything, as a human, you can politely ask the smoker to put out their cigarette if you have health issues and you're in a situation where you can't get away from the smoke. If people want to denigrate their bodies with all the harmful additives, they have the right to do so as long as it's in their own private location or in public outdoor spaces.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L07p_P8H0AU



Antischism - Foreign Policy

How many rivers of blood must spill?
How many more people killed?
I'm tired of hearing about politics
I want to know when the killing will end
Senseless killing for corporate profit that's their foreign policy
Vile old men in a pentagon office
Looking at the world through blood-stained glasses
Lining their pockets with human flesh
But all their money stinks of death
Senseless killing for corporate profit that's their foreign policy
These criminals are unknown
You never hear their names
They sit in their offices
Playing multinational murder games
It's worse than you can imagine
Millions have already died
But there are no laws in this game
And no one pays for their crimes
Endorsing apartheid in South Africa
Pumping money into the hateful system
As the CIA are playing chess games in Central America
Instigating revolution and then counter-revolution
Well its as if they had any right
The madness it must be stopped

Antischism
11-21-2012, 01:38 PM
Love that song. :)