Unions Kill The Twinkie

[RonPaulFanInGA]

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/11/16/the-end-of-the-twinkie-hostess-files-motion-to-liquidate/


And that’s that: Hostess Brands, maker of Twinkies, Wonder Bread and more, announced this morning it has filed a motion with bankruptcy court to start liquidating the company immediately. A huge number of jobs are soon to be lost.

“Hostess Brands will move promptly to lay off most of its 18,500-member workforce,” said CEO Gregory F. Rayburn in the statement, “and focus on selling its assets to the highest bidders.”

In a letter posted on a new site set up to communicate with employees and suppliers through the liquidation process, Mr. Rayburn pinned the blame on its striking union:

Despite everyone’s considerable efforts to move Hostess out of its restructuring, when we began implementing the Company’s last, best and final offer, the Bakers Union chose to stage a crippling strike. This affected Hostess’ ability to continue to make products and service its customers’ needs and pushed Hostess into a Wind Down scenario. As a result, we are forced to proceed with an orderly wind down and sale of our operations and assets. We deeply regret taking this action. But we simply cannot continue to operate without the ability to produce or deliver our products.

18,500 more food stamp recipients for Obama.

[HOLLYWOOD]

CNBC Squawk Box had very good coverage. Hostess is made up of union and non union employees.

It was a combination over the years of bad management, and unions. The current CEO tried hard on what had to be done to keep Hostess operating. 8% across the board cut in salaries(Every single employee CEO to janitor) less contributions to 401Ks, and help on other cost cutting measures. The equity firm alone, lost 30 million this year, and I think over $100 million for the duration.

I would like to see Little Debbie's biz model for a comparison.

The Bakers Union were suicidial, refused the cuts, now they can become more of the mooching class, we'll have to pay for down the road, BUT... I do beleive the Twinkie will live on

[fr33]

Let them eat cake. Lots and lots of cake.

[CaptUSA]

The good news here is that it serves as a reminder to other union members whose union bosses care more about the politics instead of the workers.

Here's hoping there's a ripple effect.

[carclinic]

Let them eat cake. Lots and lots of cake.
Clever! Like this one!

[pcosmar]

KILLING THE GOOSE THAT LAID THE GOLDEN EGG.

An old story..

[Travlyr]

KILLING THE GOOSE THAT LAID THE GOLDEN EGG.

An old story..

Old story indeed. Drive through Peoria, Illinios or Detroit, Michigan for proof with your own eyes. Unions destroyed the towns.

[Czolgosz]

MAD is an important tool that you sometimes must use in order to remind the others.

[JK/SEA]

owners and management killed this company. Ask me how i know. I worked for Interstate Brands for 8 years as a dough mixer for Wonderbread/Hostess. All you who besmirch the Union don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[VIDEODROME]

Twinkies make me think of Egon and Ghostbusters


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101229062155/burnoutparadise/images/c/c6/Gb065.jpg

[Czolgosz]

Tell these fuckers what's up!

[Czolgosz]

Twinkies make me think of Zingers. Sweet, sweet, Zingers.

[ghengis86]

owners and management killed this company. Ask me how i know. I worked for Interstate Brands for 8 years as a dough mixer for Wonderbread/Hostess. All you who besmirch the Union don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Enlighten all the misinformed

[thoughtomator]

Twinkies can survive nuclear holocaust, but not unions...

[angelatc]

owners and management killed this company. Ask me how i know. I worked for Interstate Brands for 8 years as a dough mixer for Wonderbread/Hostess. All you who besmirch the Union don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Well, the Bakers Union was the only wing of the company unwilling to make any sacrifices. That tells me a lot.

[jmdrake]

I was thinking about this today. I went to the store to buy some Twinkees (before they are no more) so I could give them to my Obama supporting friends with a note attached that says something to the effect of "Thanks to union shortsightedness, you will never be able to buy these again". Or perhaps just give it to them with a DVD of Ron Paul's last speech. Alas....I went to Kroger and there were no Twinkies. (Nothing but Little Debbies at that store). If anyone knows where I can still buy Twinkies in Nashville TN let me know. I think this is a great idea for a protest, but we only have a short time window to do it.

[JK/SEA]

Well, the Bakers Union was the only wing of the company unwilling to make any sacrifices. That tells me a lot.

you are wrong. Tells me you haven't done any research other than the mis-guided notion that 'unions are bad, management good' bullshit.

Sounds like a FOX news meme doesn't it?

[tod evans]

Just spoke to the manager of our local hostess store and her take is it was both the union and the shitty management that's been sucking profits from the top end...

[RonPaulFanInGA]

All you who besmirch the Union don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Right. Even the Teamsters were against this strike, and wanted the Baker's Union to take the offer they (the Teamsters) negotiated on their behalf.

[Acala]

It's more complicated than just greedy unions, although back-breaking union pensions were a major factor. For a closer look:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles

[BSU kid]

Greedy. Greedy. Greedy.

[angelatc]

you are wrong. Tells me you haven't done any research other than the mis-guided notion that 'unions are bad, management good'



It's true. I understand that you're passionate about this, but even the Teamsters agreed to the terms. The Bakers opted to strike instead.

I don't argue that bad management led them into reorg, but the Bakers Union led them into dissolution. But full disclaimer - I do think that unions are a burden on free markets.

[JK/SEA]

I was thinking about this today. I went to the store to buy some Twinkees (before they are no more) so I could give them to my Obama supporting friends with a note attached that says something to the effect of "Thanks to union shortsightedness, you will never be able to buy these again". Or perhaps just give it to them with a DVD of Ron Paul's last speech. Alas....I went to Kroger and there were no Twinkies. (Nothing but Little Debbies at that store). If anyone knows where I can still buy Twinkies in Nashville TN let me know. I think this is a great idea for a protest, but we only have a short time window to do it.

Blame mgmt. Try and get it straight please.

[crhoades]

We are now entering the Zombie apocalypse. No more twinkies. Only a few remaining snow balls! NOOOOOOO!!!!!

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MeS6DvyLScE/0.jpg

[AuH20]

Make concessions or lose your job? Regardless of union mismanagement, the cost benefit analysis is extremely obvious for everyone but these lemmings following union management's myopic agenda.

[angelatc]

Blame mgmt. Try and get it straight please.

Did you lose your job today?

[jmdrake]

Blame mgmt. Try and get it straight please.

Oh I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around. But does it make sense to you to go on strike if management tells you "We're in the red and we can't afford to pay you and we are about to close down if we don't get a deal"?

[angelatc]

Make concessions or lose your job? Regardless of union mismanagement, the cost benefit analysis is extremely obvious for everyone but these lemmings following union management's myopic agenda.

And because they forced the company out of reorg, they can't pay vendor bills or severance. The last Hostess snowball won't be on the shelves.

[Keith and stuff]

owners and management killed this company. Ask me how i know. I worked for Interstate Brands for 8 years as a dough mixer for Wonderbread/Hostess. All you who besmirch the Union don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Good point. The owners decided to allow unions in the company. That is something which may be prevented. It wasn't prevented. The blame goes on the owners and management for that mistake.

[jmdrake]

you are wrong. Tells me you haven't done any research other than the mis-guided notion that 'unions are bad, management good' bullshit.

Sounds like a FOX news meme doesn't it?

Fill in the blank. The benefit to the baker's union strike was ...............................?

[angelatc]

Guys, if he lost his job today, we don't need to berate him. He's our friend. Cut him some slack.

[AuH20]

It's true. I understand that you're passionate about this, but even the Teamsters agreed to the terms. The Bakers opted to strike instead.

I don't argue that bad management led them into reorg, but the Bakers Union led them into dissolution. But full disclaimer - I do think that unions are a burden on free markets.

Union management say jump. 18,000 workers eagerly say how high? 18,000 workers lose their jobs permanently. You can't fix stupid.

[Lucille]

Very sad.


It's more complicated than just greedy unions, although back-breaking union pensions were a major factor. For a closer look:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles


Perhaps one of the most interesting aspects of the just announced Hostess liquidation, one that will be largely debated and discussed in the media, or maybe not at all, is the curious cast of characters and the peculiar history of this particular bankruptcy. Some may not be aware that the company's Chapter 11 (or colloquially known as 22) bankruptcy filing this January, which today became a Chapter 7 liquidation, was the second one in the company's recent history, with Hostess, previously Interstate Bakeries, emerging from its previous protracted multi-year bankruptcy in 2009. What is curious is that its emergence had all the drama of a anti-Mitt Romney PAC funded thriller, with a PE firm, in this case Ripplewood holdings, injecting $130 million in order to obtain equity control of Hostess as it was emerging last time. There were also more hedge funds, investment banks, strategic buyers, politicians involved in this particular story than one can shake a deep fried numismatic value Twinkie at. More importantly, however, as America has been habituated following the last season of the reality TV show known as the presidential election, if Private Equity then "bad." Only this time there is a twist: because it wasn't really PE that was the pure evil in the Obama long-term campaign, it was associating PE with Republicans, and thus: with jobs outsourcing. And here comes the Hostess twist: because Tim Collins of Ripplewood, was a prominent Democrat, a position which allowed him to get involved in the first bankruptcy process in the first place, due to his proximity with the Teamsters' long-term heartthrob Dick Gephardt (whose consulting group just happens to also be an equity owner of Hostess). In other words, the traditional republican-cum-PE scapegoating strategy here will be a tough one to pull off since the narrative collapses when considering that it was a Democrat who rescued the firm, only to see it implode in a trainwreck that has resulted in the liquidation of a legendary brand, and 18,500 layoffs.

But it only gets better. Because the full cast of characters involved here is quite stunning
[...]
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11/Hostess%20Wars.jpg
[...]
The rest of the story is your typical post-emergency NewCo gone horribly wrong with a prominent role for the Snafu here reserved to Hostess restructuring banker Miller Buckfire for not cutting enough of the firm's pre-petition debt, with the straw that broke the camel's back being, what else, unfunded pension liabilities.
[...]
There is much more to this story, but the ending is well-known to all, and it is not a happy one.

End result: a near total loss for everyone involved, except the secured creditors of course, who will now get pennies on the dollar, or perhaps even par, for their claims when all is said and done.

Sadly, in many ways Hostess is now indicative of that just as insolvent larger corporation, the USA, whose insurmountable balance sheet liabilities will be the eventual catalyst for its collapse, but only once the Income Statement and the Cash Flow sheet join in. For now, the Fed provides the flow needed to avoid the day of reckoning, but everything ends eventually.

In the meantime, what the Hostess story will hopefully teach the always gullible public, is that nothing is ever black or white, and there are numerous shades of gray in every story: even one in which an "evil" PE firm is unable to come to resolution with labor unions, despite the man in charge of it all being a prominent democrat. Because when it comes to money other things such alliances, ideology and certainly politics are always, always, secondary. Sadly, ever more Americans will be forced to learn this lesson the hard way.

[Cowlesy]

The Democrats wants to make this an "evil PE firm" thing, except that, the PE Firm that bought the company to help it emerge from bankruptcy, is a huge Democratic donor/supporter, and worked with Dick Gephardt and his union connections to try and save the company.

So, they can'd do a "Oh it's the evil republican wall street people!" meme on this one.

Zerohedge, for once, has a pretty good bead on this.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles

[JK/SEA]

It's true. I understand that you're passionate about this, but even the Teamsters agreed to the terms. The Bakers opted to strike instead.

I don't argue that bad management led them into reorg, but the Bakers Union led them into dissolution.

Interstate Brands ran the company like D.C runs the country....spending on a failed plan led to the downfall. Wonderbread/Hostess spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS on high tech. high speed equipment that engineers couldn't figure out, leading to loss of contracts with companies like COSTCO. As a dough mixer i was working 12, 16, and a few times 24 hour shifts to help get my plant up and running along side my foremans and supervisors. Oven breakdowns, photo eye failures, conveyor breakage, and on and on and on. Lots of the doughs i made went to garbage. All the product in the non running ovens burned... garbage. It was a nightmare in my plant which finally closed. 40 million to build a plant now gone. Jobs gone. You gonna blame the Union?...gtfo.

This also went on in new plants in Nevada, and New England. The older plants where i started were making money. Everyone happy. Good hard working jobs went pffft....when the new plants closed.

[AuH20]

Interstate Brands ran the company like D.C runs the country....spending on a failed plan led to the downfall. Wonderbread/Hostess spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS on high tech. high speed equipment that engineers couldn't figure out, leading to loss of contracts with companies like COSTCO. As a dough mixer i was working 12, 16, and a few times 24 hour shifts to help get my plant up and running along side my foremans and supervisors. Oven breakdowns, photo eye failures, conveyor breakage, and on and on and on. All the doughs i made went to garbage. All the product in the non running ovens burned... garbage. It was a nightmare in my plant which finally closed. 40 million to build a plant now gone. Jobs gone. You gonna blame the Union?...gtfo.

This also went on in new plants in Nevada, and New England. The older plants where i started were making money. Everyone happy. Good hard working jobs went pffft....when the new plants closed.

All true. But union management could have saved the day and rescued these jobs, instead of being obtuse. They decided to leave the field of play and in the process, threw their employees out to the street. Not strategically wise.

[pcosmar]

This also went on in new plants in Nevada, and New England. The older plants where i started were making money. Everyone happy.

Sounds like a good opportunity for folks to start their own business..

[VIDEODROME]

Could they have continued negotiating the contract without taking the step to go on strike?

[angelatc]

It is unthinkable to imagine an America that doesn't make Twinkies. Obama will need to step in, have the government assume a majority share and hand this firm over to the unions.

[Lucille]

It is unthinkable to imagine an America that doesn't make Twinkies. Obama will need to step in, have the government assume a majority share and hand this firm over to the unions.

DH and I were just saying that! And just like with Government Motors bailout, he'll screw the secured creditors in favor of the unions. Because contract law is what Obama says it is.

[JK/SEA]

Could they have continued negotiating the contract without taking the step to go on strike?

lets be real. The strategy is/was to break the Union. Trust me, the dogs in mgmt. in a few years will resurrect Wonder/Hostess as non-union, which will guarantee the upper class and stock holders their pound of flesh in the guise of FRN's...and instead of good paying living wages, and benefits there will be zero medical and pension plans that pay perhaps 10 bucks hr. I wouldn't work in a bakery for that. I also operated ovens, and in the summer months i recorded 110 degrees in the area. Exhaust fans were always on high mode to keep it at that temp. Go ahead, TRY and work in a bakery like that for those wages. I'd love to see one of you try. I've seen many people walk off the job because of the conditions and very hard work required. Its not for everybody.

[Acala]

Interstate Brands ran the company like D.C runs the country....spending on a failed plan led to the downfall. Wonderbread/Hostess spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS on high tech. high speed equipment that engineers couldn't figure out, leading to loss of contracts with companies like COSTCO. As a dough mixer i was working 12, 16, and a few times 24 hour shifts to help get my plant up and running along side my foremans and supervisors. Oven breakdowns, photo eye failures, conveyor breakage, and on and on and on. Lots of the doughs i made went to garbage. All the product in the non running ovens burned... garbage. It was a nightmare in my plant which finally closed. 40 million to build a plant now gone. Jobs gone. You gonna blame the Union?...gtfo.

This also went on in new plants in Nevada, and New England. The older plants where i started were making money. Everyone happy. Good hard working jobs went pffft....when the new plants closed.

The corporate business form in this country is a disaster. It has taken top-down absentee management to an absurd level. Dick holes like Mitt Romney waltz in, buy up a company, strip it down, cook the books to make it look profitable, and then roll it over without ever having been to a plant or seen a worker.

The result of the mega-corporatization of the USA has been a loss of loyalty to customers, loyalty to employees, concern for the community, and perhaps most tragically, a complete loss of interest in the LONG term operation of the business. Instead of trying to maximize profits in the long term by giving the consumer MORE for their money, they have focused their efforts on producing a good quarterly report by giving consumers LESS for their money, which is exactly contrary to the sage advice of Henry Ford at the outset of the industrial revolution. It is all about making the next quarterly report look good, selling the company or changing jobs, and sticking someone else with the hollowed-out shell of the business that once was.

The government-created corporate business form should be taxed to death.

That having been said, unions are just another special interest group trying to use force to get a place at the trough at the expense of their countrymen and it suits me fine to see them get busted.

[angelatc]

DH and I were just saying that! And just like with Government Motors bailout, he'll screw the secured creditors in favor of the unions. Because contract law is what Obama says it is.

But he's not a socialist. That's what they keep telling me.

[angelatc]

That having been said, unions are just another special interest group trying to use force to get a place at the trough at the expense of their countrymen and it suits me fine to see them get busted.

I have no problem with seeing them go down together, that's for sure.

[EBounding]

Twinkies aren't going away. The brand still has value. The recipes, equipment, etc aren't going to vanish in liquidation, the title will just change. Someone else will just make them.

[pcosmar]

Could they have continued negotiating the contract without taking the step to go on strike?

Or they could just go to work and collect a paycheck..
Good luck finding another job.

[JK/SEA]

DH and I were just saying that! And just like with Government Motors bailout, he'll screw the secured creditors in favor of the unions. Because contract law is what Obama says it is.


lets clarify here that the Bakers Union is a private union, not public.

[AuH20]

Or they could just go to work and collect a paycheck..
Good luck finding another job.

Meanwhile, union management will re-emerge in another location after sending their "troops" on a suicide mission.

[JK/SEA]

Or they could just go to work and collect a paycheck..
Good luck finding another job.

you ever work in a high speed production bakery?

[Lucille]

But he's not a socialist. That's what they keep telling me.

He's a Fascialist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo172.html)!


The hallmark of the Obama administration's economic policy thus far is a forced "partnerships" with dozens of large banks along with General Motors and Chrysler. It is threatening hundreds of other "partnerships" in the name of environmental regulation. And that's just in the first five months. Mussolini would be envious.

Italian fascism created one gigantic bailout economy. Italian social critic Gaetano Salvemini wrote in his 1936 book, Under the Axe of Fascism, that "It is the state, i.e., the taxpayer, who has become responsible to private enterprise. In Fascist Italy the state pays for the blunders of private enterprise." "Profit remained to private initiative," Salvemini wrote, but "the government added the losses to the taxpayers' burden. Profit is private and individual. Loss is public and social." Sound familiar?
[...]
Obama promises the worst of all economic worlds: A vast expansion of the welfare state form of socialism, as defined by Hayek, along with a heavy dose of old-fashioned, early twentieth-century, Stalinist socialism with the nationalization of banks, automobile companies, the health care industries, and whatever else he can get away with. The Mussolini-like cult of personality that has developed around him will facilitate this disastrous path to national economic suicide.

[JK/SEA]

Meanwhile, union management re-emerges in another location after sending their "troops" on a suicide mission.

not suicide. Murder by the owners.

[andrew1229649]

I don't understand worker unions. If I was the guy calling the shots I would tell the workers that if they do not show up for work they are fired. Then I would hire new people. Could someone explain why they don't do that?

[AuH20]

not suicide. Murder by the owners.

Self-imposed termination of their employment. The economy is crumbling in nearly every sector and the union is sacrificing these men's livelihoods for the sake of their little game. There is no leverage. And I suppose bankrupcty court will further damage the legacy obligations of Hostess to it's employees. And all to prove a point. Dumb. Dumb. Playing a high stakes game of poker with no cards.

[JK/SEA]

I don't understand worker unions. If I was the guy calling the shots I would tell the workers that if they do not show up for work they are fired. Then I would hire new people. Could someone explain why they don't do that?

yeah...there called CONTRACTS. Apparently some Ron Paul supporters in here don't like them.

[VIDEODROME]

lets be real. The strategy is/was to break the Union. Trust me, the dogs in mgmt. in a few years will resurrect Wonder/Hostess as non-union, which will guarantee the upper class and stock holders their pound of flesh in the guise of FRN's...and instead of good paying living wages, and benefits there will be zero medical and pension plans that pay perhaps 10 bucks hr.

I've picked up from Wonder Bread or Nestle or Consolidated Biscuit as a trucker. Some baking companies do seem kind of chaotic, though Consolidated Biscuit seemed like a steady operation.


I guess one hopes that the strike is always the last thing people resort to, but frankly I can believe poor management, the lousy economy, or even Michelle Obama demonizing sweet treats contributed as well.

[CaptUSA]

JK, it certainly does sound like bad management here. I don't know enough about the circumstances to interject, but would this company have folded regardless of the union? Is that what you're saying?

If that's the case, then maybe the union bosses are a useful tool to place blame.

But it seems from the evidence, that the company could have survived if they could have gotten their labor finances in order. The employees would have taken a huge hit and they'd be pissed at management, but they'd still be working. At least in that scenario, they could look for a job at a better company before losing theirs.

[JK/SEA]

Self-imposed termination of their employment. The economy is crumbling in nearly every sector and the union is sacrificing these men's livelihoods for the sake of their little game. There is no leverage. And I suppose bankrupcty court will further damage the legacy obligations of Hostess to it's employees. And all to prove a point. Dumb. Dumb. Playing a high stakes game of poker with no cards.

as i have already stated. This is the owners looking for an excuse to shed the union diverting the truth of the fact that owners and management FUCKED up and in turn now want to FUCK the hard workers in the union. Thats the truth some of you can't grasp.

[AuH20]

as i have already stated. This is the owners looking for an excuse to shed the union diverting the truth of the fact that owners and management FUCKED up and in turn now want to FUCK the hard workers in the union. Thats the truth some of you can't grasp.

I've already acknowledged as much. Mismanagement led to this fragile state. But now the union wants to sacrifice these jobs that they currently control the fate of. Does that strike you as particularly wise, given the dire economic realities??? Secondly, their long-term benefits could be theoretically cut in bankruptcy court. Do you not understand that this move is incredibly short-sighted??? It's lose-lose.

[Lucille]

lets clarify here that the Bakers Union is a private union, not public.

The Teamsters (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/126543.html) are blaming management and the Baker's union.


The Teamsters union, which represents 6,700 Hostess workers, issued a statement blaming mismanagement by Hostess executives for the company's problems. But it also was critical of the decision of Bakers' union, although it did not identify the union by name.

"Unfortunately, the company's operating and financial problems were so severe that it required steep concessions from a variety of stakeholders but not all stakeholders were willing to be constructive," said Ken Hall, the Teamsters' Secretary-Treasurer. "Teamster Hostess members, based on the facts and advice from respected restructuring advisors, understood what was at stake and voted to protect all jobs at Hostess."
[...]
The Bakers' union has made several statements earlier in the week saying management is to blame for the condition of the company, not the strike. It did not respond to numerous requests for comment Friday.

The new contract cut salaries across the company by 8% in the first year of the five-year agreement. Salaries were then scheduled to bump up 3% in the next three years and 1% in the final year.

Hostess also reduced its pension obligations and its contribution to the employees' health care plan. In exchange, the company offered concessions, including a 25% equity stake for workers and the inclusion of two union representatives on an eight-member board of directors.

Do you work for Hostess? We want to hear from you. E-mail us and your story might be included in our coverage.

[angelatc]

as i have already stated. This is the owners looking for an excuse to shed the union diverting the truth of the fact that owners and management FUCKED up and in turn now want to FUCK the hard workers in the union. Thats the truth some of you can't grasp.

Sure, but apparently part of the mismanagement involved unfunded pensions, which are union. No company ever got in trouble over an unfunded 401(k). But according to the chart, Hostess had about 50 401(k) plans. That's unreal.

[tod evans]

With a company as big as Interstate it wasn't "just" the union or "just" management that screwed the pooch..

Just like with any business failure all that needs done is to follow the money to see where the trouble lies...

Who knows we could have Obama Twinkies by this time next week..:eek:


[edit]

Just had to throw in Obama Wonder Bread too..:cool:

[angelatc]

With a company as big as Interstate it wasn't "just" the union or "just" management that screwed the pooch..

Just like with any business failure all that needs done is to follow the money to see where the trouble lies...

Who knows we could have Obama Twinkies by this time next week..:eek:


[edit]

Just had to throw in Obama Wonder Bread too..:cool:

No, it's a white bread.

[belian78]

Old story indeed. Drive through Peoria, Illinios or Detroit, Michigan for proof with your own eyes. Unions destroyed the towns.
I can't say it's the union's fault entirely, but it's a major factor round here for sure. Sad thing is, even after all that's happened, multi-generational union families still support them wholeheartedly. It's strange to say the least.

[jkr]

dINg DonG, REALITY CALLING!
DOES ANYONE WANT 18,500 JOBBERS?

[JK/SEA]

Sure, but apparently part of the mismanagement involved unfunded pensions, which are union. No company ever got in trouble over an unfunded 401(k). But according to the chart, Hostess had about 50 401(k) plans. That's unreal.

There are 3 main unions in these high speed production plants. Bakers, Teamsters (truck drivers) and Operating Engineers. I'm not surprised the Teamsters are bitchin'. They have the most lucrative contracts. Better pay, better pensions, better medical. Curious they don't 'volunteer' cuts. The web site showing the Bakers fact sheet is down, but when i looked yesterday it showed some cuts the Bakers have already given, but apparently the media doesn't want to talk about that. Go figure

The site is 'BCTGM fact sheet' for those interested, but like i said its down right now.

[angelatc]

There are 3 main unions in these high speed production plants. Bakers, Teamsters (truck drivers) and Operating Engineers. I'm not surprised the Teamsters are bitchin'. They have the most lucrative contracts. Better pay, better pensions, better medical. Curious they don't 'volunteer' cuts. The web site showing the Bakers fact sheet is down, but when i looked yesterday it showed some cuts the Bakers have already given, but apparently the media doesn't want to talk about that. Go figure

The site is 'BCTGM fact sheet' for those interested, but like i said its down right now.

The teamsters took the same cuts that everybody else did. You think they should give up more, so the Bakers wouldn't have to give up anything?

[JK/SEA]

dINg DonG, REALITY CALLING!
DOES ANYONE WANT 18,500 JOBBERS?

jobbers are on the 'call' list. Most of these jobs are mostly full time, and some part time. fyi

[JK/SEA]

The teamsters took the same cuts that everybody else did. You think they should give up more, so the Bakers wouldn't have to give up anything?

point is, Bakers have 'given' up cuts already. The conventional wisdom here seems to point to that the Bakers haven't. Which is not true.

[pcosmar]

I can't say it's the union's fault entirely, but it's a major factor round here for sure. Sad thing is, even after all that's happened, multi-generational union families still support them wholeheartedly. It's strange to say the least.

Just as multi-generational welfare families support welfare.

Unions were a benefit once upon a time, but have devolved.
Fair wages and safe work environments are one thing. Excessive pay and demands, and inability to fire dead weight,, and a LOT of Governmental regulation have killed a lot of manufacturing.

There is a balance. but I believe the Unions are on the wrong end of a wide swing.

[angelatc]

point is, Bakers have 'given' up cuts already. The conventional wisdom here seems to point to that the Bakers haven't. Which is not true.

Recently? I've been looking, and all i see are some concessions they made in 2004.

[JK/SEA]

With a company as big as Interstate it wasn't "just" the union or "just" management that screwed the pooch..

Just like with any business failure all that needs done is to follow the money to see where the trouble lies...

Who knows we could have Obama Twinkies by this time next week..:eek:


[edit]

Just had to throw in Obama Wonder Bread too..:cool:

sure, follow the money. MILLIONS spent on a failed plan. The fault lies squarely with owners. (owner looks around...hey!..we need a fall guy...i know, lets blame Suzy and Johnnie on the Twinkie line for daring to work for 20 bucks an hr.....)

[Confederate]

It's true. I understand that you're passionate about this, but even the Teamsters agreed to the terms. The Bakers opted to strike instead.

I don't argue that bad management led them into reorg, but the Bakers Union led them into dissolution. But full disclaimer - I do think that unions are a burden on free markets.

Unions aren't just a burden, they're a parasite that destroy every industry they infect.

[jbauer]

lets be real. The strategy is/was to break the Union. Trust me, the dogs in mgmt. in a few years will resurrect Wonder/Hostess as non-union, which will guarantee the upper class and stock holders their pound of flesh in the guise of FRN's...and instead of good paying living wages, and benefits there will be zero medical and pension plans that pay perhaps 10 bucks hr. I wouldn't work in a bakery for that. I also operated ovens, and in the summer months i recorded 110 degrees in the area. Exhaust fans were always on high mode to keep it at that temp. Go ahead, TRY and work in a bakery like that for those wages. I'd love to see one of you try. I've seen many people walk off the job because of the conditions and very hard work required. Its not for everybody.

So you're saying the company is doing everything every other company is doing. Cut cost to deliever a product consumers will/can buy. Hostess isn't doing anything EVERY other company is doing. If you haven't seen your income decrease over the past several years you're abnormal.

[Brian4Liberty]

It's more complicated than just greedy unions, although back-breaking union pensions were a major factor. For a closer look:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles

Lol, that article says it all! A restructure plan devised by a Democrat and a couple of ex-Goldman Sachs guys. It's Solyndra and Greece combined. We all know where that ends up.

[JK/SEA]

Recently? I've been looking, and all i see are some concessions they made in 2004.

the site showing the most recent cuts is down.

I have good friends in the Union. Biz Reps. I could call them, but i'm afraid they might be to busy now to field my questions, but i do have concerns now with my Bakers Pension. I'm expecting a cut in mine soon because of this.

Ya know, i worked my fucking ass off in this biz, and managed to continue on after the Wonderbread plant in Tacoma closed (Lakewood) by finishing up at Franz Bakery. Same Union. Luckily there pension plan is better than most bakery's, and it was like walking through fire to get there. I may call my buddy on my concerns in a few days. Hell, maybe i'll go to the Seattle Hostess plant and find a Rep. there to talk to. On the news i'm seeing many people on the picket line that i worked with for years at Wonderbread. Glad to see some of them found jobs after Tacoma closed. Now they have this BS to deal with. Hard working people getting fucked by owners....i'm pissed.

[JK/SEA]

So you're saying the company is doing everything every other company is doing. Cut cost to deliever a product consumers will/can buy. Hostess isn't doing anything EVERY other company is doing. If you haven't seen your income decrease over the past several years you're abnormal.

Once again, the OWNERS spent 40 million on one plant in Tacoma that couldn't work, High Tech, high speed. Many many many breakdowns that engineers couldn't keep up with. Losing accounts like COSTCO led to the closing, not fucking pensions or wages.

There were also several other of these plants built across the country. Same result.

[Lucille]

The Bernank's price inflation (they say doesn't exist), the debt, and the unions killed Hostess.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles



Yet while the balance sheet burden was certainly the pension liabilities, what precipitated the liquidation was the income statement, and more accurately, the cash flow statement, or specifically the lack of cash flow.

as the company tried to reinvent itself in 2009 and 2010, external currents were running against it. The Great Recession hurt many consumer brands generally, and the prices of the commodities that Hostess relied on -- corn, sugar, flour -- went up, which is the opposite of what's supposed to happen in a downturn. In addition, the bakery industry underwent more consolidation when Sara Lee sold out to Bimbo.

Those fortuities aggravated Hostess's two root problems -- a highly leveraged capital structure that had little margin of safety, and high labor costs. Neither problem was adequately addressed in the first bankruptcy, and neither existed to the same degree in major competitors like Bimbo and Flowers Food (owner of such brands as Nature's Own and Tastykake). On exiting the first bankruptcy, Hostess's total debt load was nearly $670 million. That was well above what it went into bankruptcy with in the first place -- an unusual circumstance that the company justified on expectations of "growing" into its capital structure.

But the company was dead wrong. Its debt sowed the very seeds of the next bankruptcy. Looking back on the decision to reinvest in Hostess in the first bankruptcy, one of the lenders now says, "If you look in the dictionary at the definition of throwing good money after bad, there should be a picture of Hostess beside it."

By late 2011, Hostess was getting, well, creamed. Its sales last year -- $2.5 billion -- were down about 11% from 2008 and down 28% from 2004. (Twinkies remain the best individual seller -- 323 million of them in the 52-week period ending June 29, give or take a splurt.) Overall, Hostess lost $341 million in fiscal 2011, 2½ times the loss of the prior year -- and by early 2012, primarily because of burgeoning interest obligations, its debt had grown to about $860 million.

As revenue declined, the company continued to burn cash -- in the second half of 2011, the rate was $2 million a week. The liquidity crunch forced Ripplewood in the early spring of 2011 to pump in $40 million more in return for more equity as well as debt that was subordinate to that held by Silver Point and Monarch. In August -- to save a company teetering on the edge of fiscal calamity and forced liquidation -- Silver Point, Monarch, and the group of other lenders put up an additional $30 million to see if a negotiated turnaround was possible.

They turned to the unions and demanded new concessions. But the unions, having three years earlier given up thousands of jobs and millions in benefits, flatly refused.

The company was going to pieces -- again -- and Hostess filed for Chapter 11 protection -- again -- in January of this year. This time, though, the moneymen were no longer on the same page. As the majority equity holder, Ripplewood badly wanted to keep Hostess out of bankruptcy. It pleaded with the lenders to show flexibility, but they were not so inclined. They lenders held superior fiscal hands and had less downside if Hostess failed. In the event of a bankruptcy, given all the assets Hostess owned, the lenders would still walk away with millions.

There is much more to this story, but the ending is well-known to all, and it is not a happy one.

End result: a near total loss for everyone involved, except the secured creditors of course, who will now get pennies on the dollar, or perhaps even par, for their claims when all is said and done.

Sadly, in many ways Hostess is now indicative of that just as insolvent larger corporation, the USA, whose insurmountable balance sheet liabilities will be the eventual catalyst for its collapse, but only once the Income Statement and the Cash Flow sheet join in. For now, the Fed provides the flow needed to avoid the day of reckoning, but everything ends eventually.

In the meantime, what the Hostess story will hopefully teach the always gullible public, is that nothing is ever black or white, and there are numerous shades of gray in every story: even one in which an "evil" PE firm is unable to come to resolution with labor unions, despite the man in charge of it all being a prominent democrat. Because when it comes to money other things such alliances, ideology and certainly politics are always, always, secondary. Sadly, ever more Americans will be forced to learn this lesson the hard way.

[AuH20]

sure, follow the money. MILLIONS spent on a failed plan. The fault lies squarely with owners. (owner looks around...hey!..we need a fall guy...i know, lets blame Suzy and Johnnie on the Twinkie line for daring to work for 20 bucks an hr.....)

But why were they making such an aggressive push for high tech automation and expansion??? Think for a second. It sounds to me like this new investment group did not claculate the hard math on the structural deficencies (mainly employee legacy costs) of Hostess and instead tried to circumvent these obstacles through untried tech enhancements and factory expansion.

[JK/SEA]

Unions aren't just a burden, they're a parasite that destroy every industry they infect.

please....quit with the mis-guided opinion not based in facts. I was there...you ever work in a high speed production Bakery?...if you had you wouldn't be saying what you said.

[pcosmar]

lets be real.

Good. Close the doors. Fire everybody.

Start a new company and hire new folks. If people need work,, they will work.
If the work is "too hard" or the pay is "too low" they can quit. Go work for someone else. or negotiate individually.
If the person truly is valuable they will reach an agreement. if not they can hit the road.

I worked one Union job in my lifetime. I have no use for them.

[Confederate]

Once again, the OWNERS spent 40 million on one plant in Tacoma that couldn't work, High Tech, high speed. Many many many breakdowns that engineers couldn't keep up with. Losing accounts like COSTCO led to the closing, not fucking pensions or wages.

There were also several other of these plants built across the country. Same result.

So the owners are evil for spending millions of their own money trying to modernize a plant?

[Confederate]

please....quit with the mis-guided opinion not based in facts. I was there...you ever work in a high speed production Bakery?...if you had you wouldn't be saying what you said.

Don't need to work in a bakery to know unions are parasites that slowly kill every industry in America.

[jbauer]

the site showing the most recent cuts is down.

I have good friends in the Union. Biz Reps. I could call them, but i'm afraid they might be to busy now to field my questions, but i do have concerns now with my Bakers Pension. I'm expecting a cut in mine soon because of this.

Ya know, i worked my fucking ass off in this biz, and managed to continue on after the Wonderbread plant in Tacoma closed (Lakewood) by finishing up at Franz Bakery. Same Union. Luckily there pension plan is better than most bakery's, and it was like walking through fire to get there. I may call my buddy on my concerns in a few days. Hell, maybe i'll go to the Seattle Hostess plant and find a Rep. there to talk to. On the news i'm seeing many people on the picket line that i worked with for years at Wonderbread. Glad to see some of them found jobs after Tacoma closed. Now they have this BS to deal with. Hard working people getting fucked by owners....i'm pissed.

Be pissed. Welcome to America. The land of the take take take. Everyone has had stuff taken from them. I don't know enough about the bakery industry to know but you used $20/hr as a number that your union was after. Does this take into account money paid for pensions, health, disability, vacation time, over-time, holiday etc? What are other bakeries paying their workers? Contracts are contracts until one goes under. You guys aren't the first to lose and wont be the last. This is America today unfortunatley.

[AuH20]

So the owners are evil for spending millions of their own money trying to modernize a plant?
They were trying to modernize the plant to escape the hindrance of employee legacy costs. Machines don't call in sick or claim disability. That's the dirty little secret. They probably wanted to create a temporary resurgence in perceived profitability and then sell to the next sucker.

[jbauer]

Once again, the OWNERS spent 40 million on one plant in Tacoma that couldn't work, High Tech, high speed. Many many many breakdowns that engineers couldn't keep up with. Losing accounts like COSTCO led to the closing, not fucking pensions or wages.

There were also several other of these plants built across the country. Same result.

What was the labor cost of these plants? People are saying 1800 employees? Whats the average pay? I've seen 2 numbers used. $20/hr and 1800 employees. That at a 40hr week puts the cost at $74M/year in employee cost not counting all the other stuff. To know if the union or the managment were to blame you'd have to compare it to your peers. You pay, their costs, their income, profit margins etc. You said they put in high speed lines? What if mangment did that to cut on employee cost trying to save something they couldn't be expected to save?

[Acala]

yeah...there called CONTRACTS. Apparently some Ron Paul supporters in here don't like them.

Well, UNION contracts are a different animal because they are negotiated under a certain amount of coercion from Federal laws that give protection to collective bargaining. Also, there is what Mises called the gun under the table - the unspoken threat of union violence. And that is absolutely an issue with some unions, the Teamsters in particular.

[JK/SEA]

But why were they making such an aggressive push for high tech automation and expansion??? Think for a second. It sounds to me like this new investment group did not claculate the hard math on the structural deficencies (mainly employee legacy costs) of Hostess and instead tried to circumvent these obstacles through untried tech enhancements and factory expansion.

why?...GREED. The older plants with older 1,000 pound dough mixers were kicking ass before this idea of 'going bigger and faster' came about. I'm not the owner of Interstate Brands, but i'm guessing going high Tech. was a strategy to kill off Bakeries like Oroweat and Franz. Too much too fast...i remember seeing that fat fuck, Larry Street who started this idea walking around like he was going to have a heart attack because of all the breakdowns, the mountains of burned product, the huge pile of 'growing dough in the parking lot, the smoke, yelling, people quitting...yeah...fun times. I really really tried to get shit running. It was unreal actually, and this was just ONE plant. Now, years later everyone wants to come down on the Unions like its all their fault. Sick fucking mentality. These are hard working decent people getting a good living wage...now this. Thank God there are still good bakery's around, with smarter people at the helm like Franz and Oroweat. All companies i've worked for btw.

[Lucille]

Hostess was losing money. Contrary to popular leftist belief, companies do not exist to "create jobs." They exist to make a profit.

"If profit is denounced it must be assumed that running at a loss is admirable."
--Isabel Paterson

"Men enslave themselves, forging the chains link by link, usually by demanding protection as a group. When business men ask for government credit, they surrender control of their business. When labor asks for enforced "collective bargaining" it has yielded its own freedom. When racial groups are recognized in law, they can be discriminated against by law."
--Isabel Paterson

[JK/SEA]

Well, UNION contracts are a different animal because they are negotiated under a certain amount of coercion from Federal laws that give protection to collective bargaining. Also, there is what Mises called the gun under the table - the unspoken threat of union violence. And that is absolutely an issue with some unions, the Teamsters in particular.

I've sat in on contract negotiations as a Shop Steward. I guarantee no guns or clubs were involved. Just a lot of sick jokes...lol...

Actually negotiators for the companies played some serious hard ball...very eye opening.

[Confederate]

They were trying to modernize the plant to escape the hindrance of employee legacy costs. Machines don't call in sick or claim disability. That's the dirty little secret. They probably wanted to create a temporary resurgence in perceived profitability and then sell to the next sucker.

That's capitalism. Don't like it move...well no need to move, just wait another 4 years and you won't have to worry about it. Companies exist to make a profit for their owners, not to give jobs to unions.

[JK/SEA]

Hostess was losing money. Contrary to popular leftist belief, companies do not exist to "create jobs." They exist to make a profit.

"If profit is denounced it must be assumed that running at a loss is admirable."
--Isabel Paterson

"Men enslave themselves, forging the chains link by link, usually by demanding protection as a group. When business men ask for government credit, they surrender control of their business. When labor asks for enforced "collective bargaining" it has yielded its own freedom. When racial groups are recognized in law, they can be discriminated against by law."
--Isabel Paterson

Hostess will be back. Wages will be at or near 10 bucks...no bennies. So be it.

[Confederate]

Hostess will be back. Wages will be at or near 10 bucks...no bennies. So be it.

You can thank the union for that. They had a chance to keep their benefits and higher wages, but shat on that chance. They can now take 10 bucks an hour and no benefits.

Sure beats being unemployed.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Hostess will be back. Wages will be at or near 10 bucks...no bennies. So be it.

Or the union could have simply taken the 8% pay cut and not gone on strike, as the Teamsters themselves suggested.

[AuH20]

I have no problems with Unions freely associating and coming together for their best interests. But from what I understand many of these industries during the boom times surrendered far too many costly long-term benefits to their employees, creating a exponiental nightmare on their books as market share shrunk and health care prices rose. So from that point, you have management chasing rainbows and unicorns with very risky moves (expansion, untried high tech advancements) to make up for those built-in structural losses instead of confronting the obvious elephant in the room. They should have hammered out long term viability plans with the union heads years ago.

[Acala]

I've sat in on contract negotiations as a Shop Steward. I guarantee no guns or clubs were involved. Just a lot of sick jokes...lol...

Actually negotiators for the companies played some serious hard ball...very eye opening.

Oh please. If you are suggesting that violence against individuals and private property is not a real threat with many unions, you are being as blind to the faults of your side as are the blind supporters of corporate management. Union violence is historical fact. I have personally been a law clerk in trials involving union violence. Some unions are essentially organized criminal rackets.

[RockEnds]

I'm sorry people lost their jobs, but I won't miss the company. I'm not sure what all they make, but if it's just those nasty tasting treats and that awful white bread, I haven't purchased any of their products for several decades.

[Brian4Liberty]

In the event of a bankruptcy, given all the assets Hostess owned, the lenders would still walk away with millions.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles

And the money lenders still make a profit...

[Cabal]

At least they have Thanksgiving off now.

[whoisjohngalt]

Jk if the owners are as bad as you say, I would have been trying to find a new job immediately. Not to rub salt in a wound but it sounds like you saw the writing on the wall...

[Brian4Liberty]

Hostess will be back. Wages will be at or near 10 bucks...no bennies. So be it.

As a subsidiary of Bimbo?

[torchbearer]

CNBC Squawk Box had very good coverage. Hostess is made up of union and non union employees.

It was a combination over the years of bad management, and unions. The current CEO tried hard on what had to be done to keep Hostess operating. 8% across the board cut in salaries(Every single employee CEO to janitor) less contributions to 401Ks, and help on other cost cutting measures. The equity firm alone, lost 30 million this year.

I would like to see Little Debbie's biz model for a comparison.

The Bakers Union were suicidial, refused the cuts, now they can become more of the mooching class, we'll have to pay for down the road, BUT... I do beleive the Twinkie will live on


We have a 'right-to-work' non-union hostess plant here in alexandria.
they just shifted most their work load from other plants to our plant and are hiring people locally.
many thanks to the union plants that helped deliver this bounty to us.

[Odin]

It could be a good thing if those workers got more productive jobs (they wont but oh well).

For instance if they got jobs producing goods that can actually increase quality of life for people then it would be a good thing but unfortunately that could only happen in a free market.

[torchbearer]

It could be a good thing if those workers got more productive jobs (they wont but oh well).

For instance if they got jobs producing goods that can actually increase quality of life for people then it would be a good thing but unfortunately that could only happen in a free market.

they are producing food products. that is wealth creation.

[Victor Grey]

Sounds fairly clear to me.

Company management took a risk trying to up production. That failed, unions were asked to pay for the failure. They refused, now they don't have a job, and the management doesn't have a company.

[The Free Hornet]

lets be real. The strategy is/was to break the Union. Trust me, the dogs in mgmt. in a few years will resurrect Wonder/Hostess as non-union, which will guarantee the upper class and stock holders their pound of flesh in the guise of FRN's...and instead of good paying living wages, and benefits there will be zero medical and pension plans that pay perhaps 10 bucks hr. I wouldn't work in a bakery for that. I also operated ovens, and in the summer months i recorded 110 degrees in the area. Exhaust fans were always on high mode to keep it at that temp. Go ahead, TRY and work in a bakery like that for those wages. I'd love to see one of you try. I've seen many people walk off the job because of the conditions and very hard work required. Its not for everybody.

Your employer should not spend your paycheck which is what a "medical plan" does. As for pensions, the US labor unions are born of coercion. Anything won in negotiation ought be taken away just as you would take money from a bank robber. If this latest deal is bilking somebody, it is likely not the first time.

Pensions should be avoided at most any cost until/unless union members agree to die at prescribed times. Let a big insurance company dabble with annuities and actuarian tables.

I don't know if $10/hr is suitable, I do know that costs will continue to skyrocket so long as taxation and regulations continue to distort markets. What would they do with more money:

- pay real estate taxes
- pay SSN/medicare taxes
- pay the bloated doctor salaries (AMA might as well be a union)
- pay for all the baloney IP cruft and FDA-approved medicinals
- pay increasing sales tax
- pay for compliance with all regulations
- pay for the public pensions (state taxes, auto fees)
- pay energy taxes

We have malinvestment in this country and more money won't fix it. Why fret over somebody getting 10 disney bucks per hour or 20 disney bucks per hour?

[Odin]

they are producing food products. that is wealth creation.

"Food" I guess haha. It's not going to make one's life better.

Would you rather 18,500 workers work on making twinkies, or build factories, computers, capital goods, exportable products, etc?

[torchbearer]

"Food" I guess haha. It's not going to make one's life better.

Would you rather 18,500 workers work on making twinkies, or build factories, computers, capital goods, exportable products, etc?


I'd rather they make robots that make everything else.
hostess does sell bread.... and other products beyond just sugar bread.

[TheGrinch]

"Food" I guess haha. It's not going to make one's life better.

Would you rather 18,500 workers work on making twinkies, or build factories, computers, capital goods, exportable products, etc?

And why do you assume that only "products that make people's lives better" would be possible in a truly free market? That's a rather bizarre claim, and doesn't follow.

Fact stands that as long as there's a demand for crap food like Twinkies, someone will produce it. I have no idea where you got the idea that business exists to make people's lives better. That's a selling point for the consumer, not the ends of even good-hearted businessmen.

[Victor Grey]

I'd rather they make robots that make everything
Edited.

This is my opinion.

[angelatc]

"Food" I guess haha. It's not going to make one's life better.

Would you rather 18,500 workers work on making twinkies, or build factories, computers, capital goods, exportable products, etc?

Twinkies make my life better. I pick Twinkies.

[TheGrinch]

Twinkies make my life better. I pick Twinkies.

That too. Who's to say what makes my life better? I don't eat sweets, but I do drink beer and love to the point that I'm now working in the craft beer industry.

One could argue that drinking doesn't better one's life, nor does stuffing their face with unhealthy foods, but if it makes you happy, well, that's liberty...

[JK/SEA]

Oh please. If you are suggesting that violence against individuals and private property is not a real threat with many unions, you are being as blind to the faults of your side as are the blind supporters of corporate management. Union violence is historical fact. I have personally been a law clerk in trials involving union violence. Some unions are essentially organized criminal rackets.

hmmm....Union violence today is more of a myth than fact. Union violence today if it does occur,is limited to petty vandalism like a flat tire. When was the last time anyone was killed from Union violence?...history of Union violence was often times perpetrated by Company goons busting heads, and shootings of picket line workers at the behest of company owners so they could keep paying slave wages, and not have to improve working conditions.

[idiom]

The point of taking a company to bankruptcy is not to get the employees fired, but to change out the owners and management. The unions expect that someone else more 'reasonable' will buy the brands out of liquidation and re-hire the existing workforce.

[JK/SEA]

As a subsidiary of Bimbo?

when i was at Wonderbread we all thought that might happen after the closure. We also thought the large Bakery in Canada, (Maple Leaf)? might take over. Didn't happen..

[pcosmar]

hmmm....Union violence today is more of a myth than fact.

Hmm, Union Benefits are more more of a myth than fact these days.

The FED Gov has safety regulations in place to insure workplace safety.. (overbearing as they are) And slave labor wages,, Please !

Slaves don't get paid. If you agree to work for a Dollar an Hour, or a Dollar a day that is up to you.

I would be more than willing to take your job for Minimum wage. (I have been unemployed for 6 years)

[JK/SEA]

Your employer should not spend your paycheck which is what a "medical plan" does. As for pensions, the US labor unions are born of coercion. Anything won in negotiation ought be taken away just as you would take money from a bank robber. If this latest deal is bilking somebody, it is likely not the first time.

Pensions should be avoided at most any cost until/unless union members agree to die at prescribed times. Let a big insurance company dabble with annuities and actuarian tables.

I don't know if $10/hr is suitable, I do know that costs will continue to skyrocket so long as taxation and regulations continue to distort markets. What would they do with more money:

- pay real estate taxes
- pay SSN/medicare taxes
- pay the bloated doctor salaries (AMA might as well be a union)
- pay for all the baloney IP cruft and FDA-approved medicinals
- pay increasing sales tax
- pay for compliance with all regulations
- pay for the public pensions (state taxes, auto fees)
- pay energy taxes

We have malinvestment in this country and more money won't fix it. Why fret over somebody getting 10 disney bucks per hour or 20 disney bucks per hour?

Going back in History on worker benefits, it is true 'benefits' were a way to attract workers, and soon became the norm for contract negotiations. Is it the fault of todays workers that this practice of issuing benefits to private Union workers is now considered 'main stream' and expected, but i fully realize that Union workers and Union Reps. should be flexible, and as far as i'm concerned, especially in the Hostess issue, they have. I maintain this entire debacle is a manufactured tactic to bust the Union. Will it work?.....time will tell. One thing is sure, someone or somebody will be making lots of money off this BS. Sad.

[angelatc]

hmmm....Union violence today is more of a myth than fact. Union violence today if it does occur,is limited to petty vandalism like a flat tire. When was the last time anyone was killed from Union violence?...history of Union violence was often times perpetrated by Company goons busting heads, and shootings of picket line workers at the behest of company owners so they could keep paying slave wages, and not have to improve working conditions.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/09/union_violence_of_little_interest_to_media.html

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/09/08/in-labor-dispute-500-union-members-storm-port-take-six-hostages/

Slave wages? Stop that.

[Anti Federalist]

hmmm....Union violence today is more of a myth than fact. Union violence today if it does occur,is limited to petty vandalism like a flat tire. When was the last time anyone was killed from Union violence?...history of Union violence was often times perpetrated by Company goons busting heads, and shootings of picket line workers at the behest of company owners so they could keep paying slave wages, and not have to improve working conditions.

This is true. I have a very close friend and ex-shipmate who lived through the "company goon" terrorism and murders, while growing up in hard scrabble West Virginia.

At the same time, back in the late 80's, my tug was shot at, and Molotov cocktails tossed off bridges onto red flag barges carrying gasoline by union thugs in and around NYC.

I've worked union, and didn't care for it at all.

At the same time, I'm doing all I can to organize mariners into some sort of "professional association", for the purposes of pushing back against some of these outlandish regulations, in addition to providing support for men to stand up to the "bosses" and prevent another Deepwater Horizon disaster. Especially when the consequences of not doing your job properly may result in criminal charges. (Maybe if some of those charged had bothered to read RPFs, they would have know to STFU when talking to the feds).

While the hard headedness of the Bakers Union certainly appears to be a factor here, there is more at work than just "greedy unions".

[AGRP]

I don't know about unions much, but didnt hostess have every right to reject the deals that led up to this?

[Elwar]

Why do companies in those states not just move their manufacturing plants to right to work states?

There are plenty of people here in Florida who would work on making twinkies.

[angelatc]

They should have hammered out long term viability plans with the union heads years ago.

They have no interest in long term viability. It's grab-what-you-can-now in the new economy.

[Odin]

And why do you assume that only "products that make people's lives better" would be possible in a truly free market? That's a rather bizarre claim, and doesn't follow.

Fact stands that as long as there's a demand for crap food like Twinkies, someone will produce it. I have no idea where you got the idea that business exists to make people's lives better. That's a selling point for the consumer, not the ends of even good-hearted businessmen.

That's the goal of economic activity. Most of the time consumers have rational demands but the government often intervenes in the market and demands are skewed because prices are skewed. That usually leads to a misallocation of resources which requires a recessionary period to correct and re-balance.

I never claimed that businesses exist to make people's lives better, but the principle of free market capitalism is that the end result is rising quality of life because it is the most efficient means to meet rational demands.

But if the market puts something pointless like twinkies out of business and reallocates the resources to something more productive, I would be very happy. However I did add the caveat that I don't think that will happen.

[JK/SEA]

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/09/union_violence_of_little_interest_to_media.html

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/09/08/in-labor-dispute-500-union-members-storm-port-take-six-hostages/

Slave wages? Stop that.

i'm pretty sure you wouldn't work very long in some of the Bakery's i've been in for slave wages...i consider 10 bucks an hour slave wages in this example.

[Odin]

Twinkies make my life better. I pick Twinkies.

So if I offered you a free computer, or 100 boxes of free twinkies (pretend they are worth the same amount of money), you would take the twinkies?

lol ok if you say so. You won't have any more twinkies because they are going out of business. I guess you'll have to make do with dum dums or whatever the imitation thing is called.

[PauliticsPolitics]

Ha. even on this forum people politicize everything.
Hostess has been struggling for 10+ years.
They already went bankrupt in 2004 (in a "good" economy and with a GOP prez...)
Yea, bad management. Yea bad unions. Yea their products don't sell as much anymore.

Regardless, for all the twinkie lovers, I'm sure the company will either re-start. Or they will sell their brands to other companies (like Kraft) as part of liquidation.

[Elwar]

as part of liquidation.

So you are saying that there will be a twinkie liquidation?

mmm...

[Brian4Liberty]

Lol, that article says it all! A restructure plan devised by a Democrat and a couple of ex-Goldman Sachs guys. It's Solyndra and Greece combined. We all know where that ends up.

As much fun as it is to talk about Unions, IMHO, the company was doomed when it put it's fate into the hands of vulture capitalists who could make money by letting the company fail and selling off the assets. Might as well borrow money from Tony Soprano.

[angelatc]

As much fun as it is to talk about Unions, IMHO, the company was doomed when it put it's fate into the hands of vulture capitalists who could make money by letting the company fail and selling off the assets. Might as well borrow money from Tony Soprano.

Anything other than maximum profit is malinvestment of capital.

Speaking of vulture capitalists: Twinkies, Ho Hos going for $100 and more on eBay (http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/16/boxes-of-twinkies-ho-hos-going-for-100-and-more-on-ebay/#ixzz2CPuyI2Ov)

[JK/SEA]

Why do companies in those states not just move their manufacturing plants to right to work states?

There are plenty of people here in Florida who would work on making twinkies.

yeah...they might for awhile. Employee turnover would kill the industry.

[JK/SEA]

As much fun as it is to talk about Unions, IMHO, the company was doomed when it put it's fate into the hands of vulture capitalists who could make money by letting the company fail and selling off the assets. Might as well borrow money from Tony Soprano.

yep.

[Acala]

hmmm....Union violence today is more of a myth than fact. Union violence today if it does occur,is limited to petty vandalism like a flat tire. When was the last time anyone was killed from Union violence?...history of Union violence was often times perpetrated by Company goons busting heads, and shootings of picket line workers at the behest of company owners so they could keep paying slave wages, and not have to improve working conditions.

Right. The lawsuit that I sat in on a few years ago arose out of a local Teamster election. The thugs supporting one candidate thug broke into a rally of thugs supporting the other thug candidate and shoved an icepick between his ribs and punctured his lung. All for the benefit of the workers, of course. And back when I was in high school, the Teamsters went on strike and "somebody" started dropping cinder blocks off the overpasses into the windshields of passing "scab" trucks. Probably just some kids.

[Odin]

I don't think some people realize the extent of ill-effects that government and civilization has had on human freedom.

We evolved as hunter-gatherers and our instincts are tuned to that. Imo you can only achieve happiness through the fulfillment of those instincts.

A human being is not meant to sit in a cubicle all day and then drive to Ralphs and buy 5 boxes of twinkies and eat them. That is a personal deprival of freedom.

[AuH20]

As much fun as it is to talk about Unions, IMHO, the company was doomed when it put it's fate into the hands of vulture capitalists who could make money by letting the company fail and selling off the assets. Might as well borrow money from Tony Soprano.

But didn't the vulture capitalists inject 170 million into the company? Obviously, they were trying to put lipstick on a pig but...

[Brian4Liberty]

Anything other than maximum profit is malinvestment of capital.


Who says what is "maximum profit"? There is long term risk/reward to consider. A venture capitalist who invested in Apple in 1997 and sold as soon as the stock rose 20% made a foolish decision.

[Brian4Liberty]

But didn't the vulture capitalists inject 170 million into the company? Obviously, they were trying to put lisptick on a pig but...

There were multiple players. The Democrat that invested money wanted the company to succeed. The Goldman Sachs guys wanted to make a quick buck. It was the Goldman Sachs guys who pulled out the rug.

[jbauer]

i'm pretty sure you wouldn't work very long in some of the Bakery's i've been in for slave wages...i consider 10 bucks an hour slave wages in this example.

Ok now $10/hr. What is/was the going rate for a "fast bakery" line worker at your competitors? You can't call something slave wage without knowing the going rate for a "fast bakery" worker. Either way I'd start looking for a job because you can kiss the bulk of that pension you keep talking about away. It will end up in the federal pension guarentee program at 65% and they'll find a way to strip all the cost of living out of it.

Regardless between the union and mangment they both sunk the ship. Both sides are going to blame both sides its the Amerikan way.

[angelatc]

Who says what is "maximum profit"? There is long term risk/reward to consider. A venture capitalist who invested in Apple in 1997 and sold as soon as the stock rose 20% made a foolish decision.

That depends on how the freed up capital performed on his next investments.

[JK/SEA]

Makes me wonder how the hell Oroweat and Franz manage to stay open.....wait...i know. People that give a shit about making good product and making money. This would include Union workers and good management...and owners.

[angelatc]

i'm pretty sure you wouldn't work very long in some of the Bakery's i've been in for slave wages...i consider 10 bucks an hour slave wages in this example.

Yes, yes, and John McCain said none of could last a day picking lettuce, either. We are weak and obviously deserve everything we have coming to us.

[Confederate]

i'm pretty sure you wouldn't work very long in some of the Bakery's i've been in for slave wages...i consider 10 bucks an hour slave wages in this example.

If you don't want to do it for $10/hour I'm sure there are thousand of Mexicans who would eagerly line up for a chance at your job.

[kylejack]

The hedge funds were increasing top executive pay and bonuses while asking the employees to take a [second] pay cut and they had stopped contributing to the pension that they were contractually obligated to pay.

If I were an employee, I'd tell them to shove their company where the sun don't shine.

[jbauer]

Who says what is "maximum profit"? There is long term risk/reward to consider. A venture capitalist who invested in Apple in 1997 and sold as soon as the stock rose 20% made a foolish decision.

No, a venture capitalist who only made 20% in 1997 didn't have a job in 1998. The return on the s&p 500 in 97 was 30ish% and just south of that in 98. Venture capitalizm has nothing to do with long term reward. They exist for short term turn and burns of companies. Get in, get out, take what you can get and move onto the next one.

[JK/SEA]

Ok now $10/hr. What is/was the going rate for a "fast bakery" line worker at your competitors? You can't call something slave wage without knowing the going rate for a "fast bakery" worker. Either way I'd start looking for a job because you can kiss the bulk of that pension you keep talking about away. It will end up in the federal pension guarentee program at 65% and they'll find a way to strip all the cost of living out of it.

Regardless between the union and mangment they both sunk the ship. Both sides are going to blame both sides its the Amerikan way.

I retired almost 6 years ago, and my last paycheck showed i was making 22 an hour. I had 24 years in this industry.

[Confederate]

If I were an employee, I'd tell them to shove their company where the sun don't shine.

Seattle?

[jbauer]

Makes me wonder how the hell Oroweat and Franz manage to stay open.....wait...i know. People that give a shit about making good product and making money. This would include Union workers and good management...and owners.

Large companies that give a shit dont exist anymore. Be happy yours did till now.

[jbauer]

I retired almost 6 years ago, and my last paycheck showed i was making 22 an hour. I had 24 years in this industry.

Plus or minus benis?

[Qdog]

lets be real. The strategy is/was to break the Union. Trust me, the dogs in mgmt. in a few years will resurrect Wonder/Hostess as non-union, which will guarantee the upper class and stock holders their pound of flesh in the guise of FRN's...and instead of good paying living wages, and benefits there will be zero medical and pension plans that pay perhaps 10 bucks hr. I wouldn't work in a bakery for that. I also operated ovens, and in the summer months i recorded 110 degrees in the area. Exhaust fans were always on high mode to keep it at that temp. Go ahead, TRY and work in a bakery like that for those wages. I'd love to see one of you try. I've seen many people walk off the job because of the conditions and very hard work required. Its not for everybody.

If its that bad, then dont do it. If those evil managers really arent paying enough then no one will do the work. I would wager that someone will.

[kylejack]

If its that bad, then dont do it.
That's exactly what 92% of the employees did.



If those evil managers really arent paying enough then no one will do the work. I would wager that someone will.
Not a very smart wager, considering they apparently can't find scabs for the right price and are going under.

[JK/SEA]

If you don't want to do it for $10/hour I'm sure there are thousand of Mexicans who would eagerly line up for a chance at your job.

no doubt...at least for a little while. Again, turn over of workers would kill the industry. Mexicans are good workers and they aren't fools. Giving raises to keep workers would be the rule. Eventually. There goes your theory that people would do these jos for peanuts. Hell, an apple picker in Washington State gets 20 an hour.

[UWDude]

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/11/16/the-end-of-the-twinkie-hostess-files-motion-to-liquidate/



18,500 more food stamp recipients for Obama.

As if.

There will always be the demand for food. It just simply will not be made by Hostess any more.

And good riddence, they made garbage, and eventually everybody figured it out. Twinkies are vile.

[JK/SEA]

Right. The lawsuit that I sat in on a few years ago arose out of a local Teamster election. The thugs supporting one candidate thug broke into a rally of thugs supporting the other thug candidate and shoved an icepick between his ribs and punctured his lung. All for the benefit of the workers, of course. And back when I was in high school, the Teamsters went on strike and "somebody" started dropping cinder blocks off the overpasses into the windshields of passing "scab" trucks. Probably just some kids.

you make it sound like its an epidemic. More like an exception than a rule. Are there idiots out there?...yep. Plenty of ignorance to go around.

[QWDC]

So wait, there is no talk/demand of a bailout from the left and media? I would rather the creator of tasty treats get bailed out rather than big banks and car companies.

[JK/SEA]

If its that bad, then dont do it. If those evil managers really arent paying enough then no one will do the work. I would wager that someone will.

i did 'do it' ....24 years worth. I did everything in a Bakery from cleaning and maintaining equipment, to mixing 2,000 lb. doughs to operating 75 foot tunnel ovens to being a foreman/supervisor. i retired 6 years ago. I made bread. Both at Oroweat and Franz and Wonderbread....good hard work, and not easy i guarantee you. You want to get ahead in a Bakery, you better have decent math skills as well as a good strong back, and don't mind sweating...a lot.

[UWDude]

People always act like a big corporation that makes something anybody can make, (hostess) or providing a service anybody can provide (Wal Mart) would be the end of those industries if they went under.

As if nobody was alive before the nineties when every retail store in the United States was not Wal Mart.

Hostess has been over-priced for decades now. International advertising campaigns, and having too much management overhead does that.

Same with the big banks. People all act like if JPM or GS went under, that would be the end of banking, and nobody would make loans anymore. I remember, as a kid in the eighties, there were tons of different banks in my city. Now, there are only a handful.

[Victor Grey]

It will end up in the federal pension guarentee program at 65%

There's a federal pension guarantee?

I've heard everything now. I hate everyone.

[Acala]

you make it sound like its an epidemic. More like an exception than a rule. Are there idiots out there?...yep. Plenty of ignorance to go around.

It is a fact of life when dealing with certain unions. It doesn't have to happen in every negotiation. It only has to happen once in a while to have an influence.

If UPS fired all its drivers and hired non-union replacements, people would die and buildings would burn. That is an absolute certainty.

[UWDude]

It is a fact of life when dealing with certain unions. It doesn't have to happen in every negotiation. It only has to happen once in a while to have an influence.

If UPS fired all its drivers and hired non-union replacements, people would die and buildings would burn. That is an absolute certainty.

No, it isn't.

[JK/SEA]

Plus or minus benis?

per contract the worker and company contributed to both.

[Acala]

No, it isn't.

You are right. It isn't an absolute certainty. But it IS probable enough to be a big factor in shaping behavior.

[Tpoints]

Plus or minus benis?

I almost Googled the word "benis".

[Dr.3D]

From my experience, this closing or "bankrupt" activity is just a way to bust the unions and relieve the company of the need to pay pensions. This is what happens when a company ends up with a huge legacy cost and no way to cover it.

[Anti Federalist]

As much fun as it is to talk about Unions, IMHO, the company was doomed when it put it's fate into the hands of vulture capitalists who could make money by letting the company fail and selling off the assets. Might as well borrow money from Tony Soprano.

Teldar Paper and Blue Star Airlines.

+rep

[JK/SEA]

Yes, yes, and John McCain said none of could last a day picking lettuce, either. We are weak and obviously deserve everything we have coming to us.

picking lettuce?....lol...picking lettuce would be like a vacation for me compared to what i 'used' to do.

[JK/SEA]

Teldar Paper and Blue Star Airlines.

+rep

''greed is 'good'...yeah, only if EVERYONE' benefits. Reality says otherwise though.

[tod evans]

From my experience, this closing or "bankrupt" activity is just a way to bust the unions and relieve the company of the need to pay pensions. This is what happens when a company ends up with a huge legacy cost and no way to cover it.

Much truth here, be interesting how this plays out...

[jbauer]

per contract the worker and company contributed to both.

Not my job to be a judge as to the worth of a working person but $22 + benifits is a pretty high paying job even with 2.5 decades working for them.

[JK/SEA]

Not my job to be a judge as to the worth of a working person but $22 + benifits is a pretty high paying job even with 2.5 decades working for them.

i disagree.

[tod evans]

Not my job to be a judge as to the worth of a working person but $22 + benifits is a pretty high paying job even with 2.5 decades working for them.

$45k year is "high"?

[JK/SEA]

Much truth here, be interesting how this plays out...

To be eligible for a Bakers Union pension, there is a plan called the Golden 80, age plus years of service. As to the Hostess workers, its unclear how many have been eligible but keep working, because for every year you work past your Golden 80, you receive an additional 200 bucks. Could be just a handful. Some are probably close to retirement, while some may have several more years to go. It is possible some of these workers may get hired on at other Union bakery's.

[JK/SEA]

$45k year is "high"?

depending on seniority, a person could 'bump' someone for overtime at time plus 1/2, increasing your yearly take home. The most i ever made in a year was 62 grand. That was from Wonderbread, and working to keep the place running...btw...overtime does not accrue towards pension time.

[awake]

Unions protect your job? Ha!... look at the result...they are a workers greatest enemy.They are constantly working toward your unemployment while taxing you "dues" along the way.

Unions protect jobs...lol. Tell that to the mass of unemployed.

[JK/SEA]

Unions protect your job? Ha!... look at the result...they are a workers greatest enemy.They are constantly working toward your unemployment while taxing you "dues" along the way.

Unions protect jobs...lol. Tell that to the mass of unemployed.

not entirely true. As a Shop Steward i ran interference on several workers that the company wanted to fire for the only reason of personality conflicts and not work performance.

[tod evans]

depending on seniority, a person could 'bump' someone for overtime at time plus 1/2, increasing your yearly take home. The most i ever made in a year was 62 grand. That was from Wonderbread, and working to keep the place running...btw...overtime does not accrue towards pension time.

Sounds like "comfortable" wages, certainly not get-rich money.

The lady that manages our local hostess store commented about various corporate types during her 12 yrs that pulled down 7 figures..

Quite a disparity.....

[Tpoints]

Unions protect your job? Ha!... look at the result...they are a workers greatest enemy.They are constantly working toward your unemployment while taxing you "dues" along the way.

Unions protect jobs...lol. Tell that to the mass of unemployed.

No, they protect wages, not jobs :)

The Union doctrine : give us the wages we want, or give us unemployment!

[JK/SEA]

Sounds like "comfortable" wages, certainly not get-rich money.

The lady that manages our local hostess store commented about various corporate types during her 12 yrs that pulled down 7 figures..

Quite a disparity.....

raised a family on my wages. The medical benefits were so-so, and the pension is ok compared to Teamster.

[awake]

not entirely true. As a Shop Steward i ran interference on several workers that the company wanted to fire for the only reason of personality conflicts and not work performance.

Sorry to say, but under liberty you are free to fire and hire for any reason as long as it does not fall into the frame of a legal contract [ Clause 341.b Can not fired due to persoanl differences]. The fact that you lay off productive people for petty personal reasons would play out in the profit loss column.

As for Unions being necessary in any way is a contradiction. "Necessary" automatically implies voluntary membership to verify the statement. Voluntary membership is the end of coercive unionism.

[JK/SEA]

No, they protect wages, not jobs :)

The Union doctrine : give us the wages we want, or give us unemployment!

c'mon...really?..you really think these guys that negotiate for the company just fell off the turnip truck?.....lol...

[Tpoints]

c'mon...really?..you really think these guys that negotiate for the company just fell off the turnip truck?.....lol...

not sure what you mean...explain please?

[Tpoints]

$45k year is "high"?

Yes. Though it may vary based on how many mouths you have to feed or where you live.

[1000-points-of-fright]

King Don Shrugged.

[pcosmar]

c'mon...really?..you really think these guys that negotiate for the company just fell off the turnip truck?.....lol...

Nope,, I think they are the guys that sell stuff that "fell off a truck".

[JK/SEA]

Sorry to say, but under liberty you are free to fire and hire for any reason as long as it does not fall into the frame of a legal contract. The fact that you lay off productive people for petty personal reasons would play out in the profit loss column.

As for Unions being necessary in any way is a contradiction. "Necessary" automatically implies voluntary membership to make it a valid statement.

well, i could understand your attitude, but we're talking private Company's, and Unions, not taxpayer funded workers.

You either honor a contract or you show your lack of integrity by not honoring a contract. Simple. Yep, freedom and liberty to fuck your workers. Nice concept.

[tod evans]

Yes. Though it may vary based on how many mouths you have to feed or where you live.

And what wage should a man with 2 decades experience in any field expect?

[Tpoints]

And what wage should a man with 2 decades experience in any field expect?

nothing. Let the market decide. I'm sure you've heard of people who work 40 years in an obsolete industry.

Where do Americans get this idea that seniority and loyalty gets you higher pay?

Experience might, but experience doesn't keep growing infinitely, at some point, somebody with 10 years of experience is as good as somebody with 35 years. Or, the difference doesn't matter until it translates into productivity (profits).

[JK/SEA]

not sure what you mean...explain please?

pretty self explanatory. In other words, no one put a gun to these guys heads. They could simply say..well, were not gonna renew the contract....a strike would break out, scabs hired, union gets busted. Why doesn't this happen more often?...no one wins thats why. In a perfect world we wouldn't need unions. But we do.

[tod evans]

nothing. Let the market decide. I'm sure you've heard of people who work 40 years in an obsolete industry.

Where do Americans get this idea that seniority and loyalty gets you higher pay?

Experience might, but experience doesn't keep growing infinitely, at some point, somebody with 10 years of experience is as good as somebody with 35 years. Or, the difference doesn't matter until it translates into productivity (profits).

I can't speak for other industries, but in carpentry/woodworking 20 years in you're learning some....I'm over 30 years in and still learning..

I would think most vocations are similar..

[Tpoints]

pretty self explanatory. In other words, no one put a gun to these guys heads. They could simply say..well, were not gonna renew the contract....a strike would break out, scabs hired, union gets busted. Why doesn't this happen?...no one wins thats why. In a perfect world we wouldn't need unions. But we do.

I didn't say we do or don't need unions, I'm sure they're useful someway or another. But I don't believe it's always the case that nobody wins, sometimes labor laws force employers to compromise, and sometimes employers can't afford to wait (even though ideally they'd prefer to), still other times, employers are in denial as much as the employees.

[UWDude]

You are right. It isn't an absolute certainty. But it IS probable enough to be a big factor in shaping behavior.
"probable" in "shaping" behavior.

Nice and vague. Do you feel you made your point?

[JK/SEA]

nothing. Let the market decide. I'm sure you've heard of people who work 40 years in an obsolete industry.

Where do Americans get this idea that seniority and loyalty gets you higher pay?

Experience might, but experience doesn't keep growing infinitely, at some point, somebody with 10 years of experience is as good as somebody with 35 years. Or, the difference doesn't matter until it translates into productivity (profits).

you said it. Let the markets decide. I used to hire people for jobs at Oroweat. Many many people could not do the jobs for various reasons, In order to attract higher quality people you must offer a competitive wage and benefits. In other words, make them an offer they must consider or go work for minimum wage at Mickey D's.

[Tpoints]

I can't speak for other industries, but in carpentry/woodworking 20 years in you're learning some....I'm over 30 years in and still learning..

I would think most vocations are similar..

I don't think so, not if the job is teaching, selling, mechanics on a car, painting walls, moving cargo, baking bread, delivering pizza.

Yes, there's always new things to learn, but it's not always something new people can't also learn too. The point is - the best measure for wage and compensation is the value you are to the market, the employer, the customer.

How much is a 20 year carpenter worth compared to a newbie?
How much is a 30 year carpenter worth compared to a 20 year one?
Unless you can assess how much more productive, effective, profitable, reliable one is, the number of years is pointless. I don't need to tell you that people have private lives, and personal health differences, all of which can have a noticeable effect on performance and independent of how many years of expereince you have.

[Tpoints]

you said it. Let the markets decide. I used to hire people for jobs at Oroweat. Many many people could not do the jobs for various reasons, In order to attract higher quality people you must offer a competitive wage and benefits. In other words, make them an offer they must consider or go work for minimum wage at Mickey D's.

So we agree there, I don't automatically equate high quality with seniority. I equate higher compensation with high quality work, but not anything less.

[JK/SEA]

So we agree there, I don't automatically equate high quality with seniority. I equate higher compensation with high quality work, but not anything less.

yep, we agree. I knew many guys with tons of seniority, but it didn't really matter to them. Their only concern was accrued vacation time and pension. BUT, these guys knew their jobs and did them well. They just plugged along like little cogs in the wheel. Of course there were exceptions, but in my experience high seniority and low quality was not the norm.

[tod evans]

So we agree there, I don't automatically equate high quality with seniority. I equate higher compensation with high quality work, but not anything less.

This is valid, however, higher quality generally comes with experience, as does the ability to produce high quality work expeditiously.

Not all "experienced" workers are capable of high quality work, and not all inexperienced are incapable..

[UWDude]

I don't think so, not if the job is teaching, selling, mechanics on a car,

LoL. Really!?
Wow!
teaching, selling, and certainly mechanics are some of the jobs that age well with experience.

I guarantee you, a salesman with 20 years experience will ALWAYS lay waste to one with 3 years.
And mechanics? I can't believe you just showed such aristocratic disdain for one of the most experience based jobs in the country! What, jsut because they are "grease monkeys" it must be a job for stupid people, that anyone can do? LoL!
Do you really think a mechanic with three years' experience can be just as good as one with 20?

[Tpoints]

This is valid, however, higher quality generally comes with experience, as does the ability to produce high quality work expeditiously.

Not all "experienced" workers are capable of high quality work, and not all inexperienced are incapable..

my point exactly, which is why I said it was absurd to ask "how much should a person who worked 20 years expect as his wage".

[Tpoints]

LoL. Really!?
Wow!
teaching, selling, and certainly mechanics are some of the jobs that age well with experience.

I guarantee you, a salesman with 20 years experience will ALWAYS lay waste to one with 3 years.
And mechanics? I can't believe you just showed such aristocratic disdain for one of the most experience based jobs in the country! What, jsut because they are "grease monkeys" it must be a job for stupid people, that anyone can do? LoL!
Do you really think a mechanic with three years' experience can be just as good as one with 20?

Yes, I do. Even if it's rare.

Now tell me, how much more is a 20 years mechanic worth compared to a 3 year mechanic? Can you give me an estimated number for their per hour value?
Do you base that solely on years, or do you consider the productivity from a customer's perspective?

Salesman as well, how much more sales does a 20 year person sell compared to a 3 year person? Can you tell me? Or should it even matter if we put them both on commission?

[tod evans]

my point exactly, which is why I said it was absurd to ask "how much should a person who worked 20 years expect as his wage".

And this is the primary purpose of "unions" from what I understand; Time in grade = pay and benefits.

Were I a person who chose "security" when seeking a job then government or union employment would be logical...

Government, like unions, does "time in grade"...

So once again "how much is two decades of experience worth?"

Obviously it's worth "something" or these presidents wouldn't have been set and then adhered to...

[awake]

well, i could understand your attitude, but we're talking private Company's, and Unions, not taxpayer funded workers.

You either honor a contract or you show your lack of integrity by not honoring a contract. Simple. Yep, freedom and liberty to fuck your workers. Nice concept.

You can't even recognize freedom of association? If you had people come to your house who you paid to mow your lawn and rake the leaves, and they annoyed you to high hell, is it f@#$ng them to tell them you won't be continuing their services?

Unions are are unions..private or public is moot, thier special laws empower them to do the same harm.

Liberty is often too much to for even its advocates some times.

[Tpoints]

And this is the primary purpose of "unions" from what I understand; Time in grade = pay and benefits.

Were I a person who chose "security" when seeking a job then government or union employment would be logical...

Government, like unions, does "time in grade"...

So once again "how much is two decades of experience worth?"

Obviously it's worth "something" or these presidents wouldn't have been set and then adhered to...

Sure, it must be worth something to these people, but I can't answer a number for every industry. The question was asked in a way that assumes a 20 year professor must get the same promotion and salary raise as a 20 year toilet scrubber or floor mopper.

[tod evans]

Liberty is often too much to for even its advocates some times.

But "liberty" includes unions too, at least in my book it does.

[Anti Federalist]

Experience might, but experience doesn't keep growing infinitely, at some point, somebody with 10 years of experience is as good as somebody with 35 years. Or, the difference doesn't matter until it translates into productivity (profits).

Hmmm....

Who would you rather have flying your plane?

The two kids who crashed Colgan Air flight 3407 in Buffalo after a series of pilot errors in bad weather?

Or old man "Sully" Sullenberger, who "dead stick-ed" an A320 into the Hudson River with no serious injuries?

(That's still a fucking miracle AFAIC)


Sullenberger said: "One way of looking at this might be that for 42 years, I've been making small, regular deposits in this bank of experience, education and training. And on January 15 the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."[37]

[JK/SEA]

You can't even recognize freedom of association? If you had people come to your house who you paid to mow your lawn and rake the leaves, and they annoyed you to high hell, is it f@#$ng them to tell them you won't be continuing their services?

i would honor our 'contract' whether verbal or otherwise. They finish the job agreed on, and if as you say they had annoyed me...well, they won't get repeat business. If though on the chance were talking about a unionized lawn care business, i would write up a grievance to their Union/company and expect relief, say perhaps a discount on services, or some other solution.

[tod evans]

Sure, it must be worth something to these people, but I can't answer a number for every industry. The question was asked in a way that assumes a 20 year professor must get the same promotion and salary raise as a 20 year toilet scrubber or floor mopper.

I suppose I should have used the term "vocation" instead of "field"...Although I personally would hold many toilet scrubbers in higher regard than some of the professors I've had.

Book learnin' will only get a person so far, after that experience and dedication come into play.

[Lucille]

Related:

Capitalism At Work: Twinkies Soar On Ebay
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/capitalism-work-twinkies-soar-ebay


The invisible hand at work once again as fat-fingered demand dominates union-stifled supply... $8,000 for a single Twinkie... and other offers... It seems, once again, that there are more than a few greater fools who still have no idea just how the bankruptcy process works... will Twinkies be rebranded Bimbettes?
[...]
There is, however, a small problem for all those hoping for a collectible value on Hostess products after today, and lifting these ridiculous ebay bids: Grupo Bimbo, who wanted to buy Hostess outright in 2006, will almost certainly buy the various now defunct trademarks in a Stalking Horse liquidation auction, and will absolutely continue making them (as we discussed here) collapsing any residual value as Twinkies will be found, in the same identical box, in a grocery store near you.

Sadly, having zero understanding of the bankruptcy process never stopped Americans from making decisions: such as taking one's words for what would happen to America's auto industry had contract law not been inverted several years ago and it the car companies had "failed."

[UWDude]

Yes, I do. Even if it's rare.

Now tell me, how much more is a 20 years mechanic worth compared to a 3 year mechanic? Can you give me an estimated number for their per hour value?
Do you base that solely on years, or do you consider the productivity from a customer's perspective?

Salesman as well, how much more sales does a 20 year person sell compared to a 3 year person? Can you tell me? Or should it even matter if we put them both on commission?

I'd say a 20 year mechanic can fix machines 3 to 4 times as fast, with 3 to 4 times less mistakes, than a 3 year mechanic. Maybe even more. And they do not get paid 3 to 4 times as much. A 20 year mechanic can also train younger mechanic 3 to 4 times, if not 20 times as efficiently as a 3 year mechanic.

And I was a mechanic for about 2 years. And the old man teaching me KNEW HIS SHIT! And, to top it off, sometimes, when he wasn't around, they would have the former mechanic, who had about 3 years experience come in to help, and that guy was hardly any better than me. I can't even fathom how someone could assume a mechanic is a job where somebody with 3 years experience could be any where near as valuable as someone with 20. I have no idea how someone can be so arrogant and disrespectful of the work of others, really.

Sales? I'd say a 20 year sales person could close 3 times as many deals a month as a 3 year sales person. And commission based jobs scare away new prospects, because they know damn well selling isn't easy.

So, in conclusion, your views obviously stem in complete disrespect and the complete inability to imagine all the things people learn when they work a job. Have you worked more than three jobs in your life?

[pcosmar]

Well that didn't take long,
http://www.redstate.com/files/2012/11/Twinkie-The-Kids-Final-Moments1-620x465.jpg#Union%20kills%20Twinkie%20620x465

[tod evans]

Unions are the private sectors answer to government employment...

Does this mean that all the GS-16's and up will be given the ax?

[UWDude]

And one of the reasons unions demand pay for seniority is because sometimes there are personal reasons managers overlook workers. Be it political, religious, racial, girls, hatred of the way they talk, feeling threatened by their experience or comradery with other workers, and of course my favorite, the worker that is never afraid to let management know that they are being retarded, while all the other workers just grumble quietly, sometimes there is one who will say, "yeah, your new proposal, is not going to make things any better, and will just slow production".

Just like on any forum, if someone brings up an idea, no matter how dumb, they will take it personally if its flaws are brought to light.

[JK/SEA]

i can make a loaf of bread with my eyes closed....lol

[jllundqu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V13CZnUCOaQ

[CaseyJones]

Things American Unions Have Destroyed

http://ronpaulproblems.tumblr.com/post/35866256290/things-american-unions-have-destroyed

[jllundqu]

Things American Unions Have Destroyed

http://ronpaulproblems.tumblr.com/post/35866256290/things-american-unions-have-destroyed

Tell that to some of the more 'union friendly' folks around here ;)

[tod evans]

Who knows we could have Obama Twinkies by this time next week..:eek:
[edit]

Just had to throw in Obama Wonder Bread too..:cool:

Sure didn't take long;

Petition wants Obama to save Twinkies

A new White House petition wants President Obama to nationalize the "Twinkie industry," saving the popular junk food from possible extinction.

"We the undersigned, hereby request Barack Obama to immediately Nationalize the Twinkie industry and prevent our nation from losing her sweet creamy center," a petition on the White House "We the People" website requests.

more;

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/11/petition-wants-obama-to-save-twinkies-149789.html

[JK/SEA]

Things American Unions Have Destroyed

http://ronpaulproblems.tumblr.com/post/35866256290/things-american-unions-have-destroyed

as a once hardworking union member in Bakers Local 9 now retired, i take personal offense at this and demand an apology.

[torchbearer]

Why do companies in those states not just move their manufacturing plants to right to work states?

There are plenty of people here in Florida who would work on making twinkies.

they moved several divisions to louisiana.
they are still hiring, so apparently its was seen as a profitable division.

[torchbearer]

as a once hardworking union member in Bakers Local 9 now retired, i take personal offense at this and demand an apology.


unions have a bad name in this state.
every place that have been instituted, the production has gone down as payroll goes up. (as people find its harder to get fired for being lazy as long as they just show up for work)
the GM plants were the only ones that were almost all union. they are all out of business.
the manufacturing moving in are those trying to escape the unions. our standard of living in this state is rising.
how's the standard of living in detroit?

[awake]

Let me not mince words; unions are the sign of the end of a product(s). When employees "representatives" spend more time trying to war with management and vise versa, who has time to care about making anything worth buying.

Current unions are micro governments who live by taxation called dues. They follow all the same tenants: represenatives, voting and corruption.

[JK/SEA]

unions have a bad name in this state.
every place that have been instituted, the production has gone down as payroll goes up. (as people find its harder to get fired for being lazy as long as they just show up for work)
the GM plants were the only ones that were almost all union. they are all out of business.
the manufacturing moving in are those trying to escape the unions. our standard of living in this state is rising.
how's the standard of living in detroit?

not true in every case. Cherry picking negatives is not a noble or worthy endeavor.

[JK/SEA]

i'm still waiting for my apology from the mod. Perhaps insults by mods are tolerated now?...

[Tpoints]

Hmmm....

Who would you rather have flying your plane?

The two kids who crashed Colgan Air flight 3407 in Buffalo after a series of pilot errors in bad weather?

Or old man "Sully" Sullenberger, who "dead stick-ed" an A320 into the Hudson River with no serious injuries?

(That's still a fucking miracle AFAIC)

I want a competent person to fly my plane, regardless of his age and experience.

[torchbearer]

not true in every case. Cherry picking negatives is not a noble or worthy endeavor.

we have a few example of union plants in this state to pick from... they all fail. that is how unions get a bad name here.
Cameron/Cooper valves pay awesome wages, and are moving more of their facilities here. if you start talking union, the employees will be the first to ask you to leave.

[JK/SEA]

we have a few example of union plants in this state to pick from... they all fail. that is how unions get a bad name here.
Cameron/Cooper valves pay awesome wages, and are moving more of their facilities here. if you start talking union, the employees will be the first to ask you to leave.

so?...and some people like to smoke pot and some don't...whats your point?

[tod evans]

I want a competent person to fly my plane, regardless of his age and experience.

And who would you rely on to make that decision?

Obviously every passenger isn't given the opportunity to interview pilots before boarding.

So as a general rule you'd prefer the 5yr man or the 20yr man?

[Tpoints]

I suppose I should have used the term "vocation" instead of "field"...Although I personally would hold many toilet scrubbers in higher regard than some of the professors I've had.

Book learnin' will only get a person so far, after that experience and dedication come into play.

No, using vocation over job, task, or field wouldn't matter. Every job, task ,and paid time should be scrutinized for their value. I don't care if the person has kids to feed or student debt to pay, as long as he's replaceable, he can bargain for more when he's less replaceable. I don't think toilet scrubbers are bad people, I am just saying there's not much more value one can earn after doing it for 20 years, any more than a person who's done it for 5 years.

[ghengis86]

i'm still waiting for my apology from the mod. Perhaps insults by mods are tolerated now?...

For posting a link?

[tod evans]

No, using vocation over job, task, or field wouldn't matter. Every job, task ,and paid time should be scrutinized for their value. I don't care if the person has kids to feed or student debt to pay, as long as he's replaceable, he can bargain for more when he's less replaceable. I don't think toilet scrubbers are bad people, I am just saying there's not much more value one can earn after doing it for 20 years, any more than a person who's done it for 5 years.

So length of service shouldn't matter to employers?

Is this right?

[Brian4Liberty]

No one wants to face reality. There are two billion people who would gladly do your job for a bowl of rice and a fish-head. You will be lucky to get the same. You are a dime a dozen. You have no worth. Those without worth have no liberty. Get used to it.

Exceptions:

- does not apply to those who work for the government.
- does not apply to those who lend money on Wall St.
- does not apply to those who directly pal around with either of the two above groups.
- substantially better food available for free (while supplies last), no work required. See government for more details.
- the right to cross-dress and use any bathroom you like has been granted as a substitute for the Bill of Rights.

[JK/SEA]

OK, i'll do it. On behalf of Ron Paul Forums and the moderator Casey Jones, i would like to apologize to the member JK/SEA for insulting this posters past job history for disparging remarks in regards to his membership in a labor union.

''things UNIONS have destroyed''

really?

how about things UNIONS have built...professional or otherwise?....

[torchbearer]

so?...and some people like to smoke pot and some don't...whats your point?


goes back a couple post-
unions have a bad name in this state, and i listed why.
you said i cherry pick.
i tell you we have very few union places to give as an example as most have already gone out of business and no other place will start a union because the employees don't want them.

[emazur]

OK, Unions 101 question here: why couldn't Hostess fire the whole lot of 'em, put up a help wanted sign, and watch the applications flow in during a time of massive unemployement? Be specific.

[Tpoints]

So length of service shouldn't matter to employers?

Is this right?

Not until it translates to dollars. Loyalty is nice, but until you can eat it, why should an employer care?

[tod evans]

Repless, but worth 10 pts!



No one wants to face reality. There are two billion people who would gladly do your job for a bowl of rice and a fish-head. You will be lucky to get the same. You are a dime a dozen. You have no worth. Those without worth have no liberty. Get used to it.

Exceptions:

- does not apply to those who work for the government.
- does not apply to those who lend money on Wall St.
- does not apply to those who directly pal around with either of the two above groups.
- substantially better food available for free (while supplies last), no work required. See government for more details.
- the right to cross-dress and use any bathroom you like has been granted as a substitute for the Bill of Rights.

[JK/SEA]

No one wants to face reality. There are two billion people who would gladly do your job for a bowl of rice and a fish-head. You will be lucky to get the same. You are a dime a dozen. You have no worth. Those without worth have no liberty. Get used to it.

Exceptions:

- does not apply to those who work for the government.
- does not apply to those who lend money on Wall St.
- does not apply to those who directly pal around with either of the two above groups.
- substantially better food available for free (while supplies last), no work required. See government for more details.
- the right to cross-dress and use any bathroom you like has been granted as a substitute for the Bill of Rights.

ok, riiight..when the price of gas gets back to 10 cents a gal. i'll work for rice and fish heads...geez...

[Tpoints]

ok, riiight..when the price of gas gets back to 10 cents a gal. i'll work for rice and fish heads...geez...

you want to complain about gas? try not having a car.

[tod evans]

Not until it translates to dollars. Loyalty is nice, but until you can eat it, why should an employer care?

An employee in a position has generally proven his worth.

Not that long ago loyalty and ethics carried weight in the business environment, your attitude and statements express loyalty only to profit, exactly as many have demonized Bain Capitol for..

Honestly it sickens me to listen to the views and justification used to exhibit unethical behavior, and that goes for workers as well as management.

As you move into life try very hard to remember Ron Paul getting booed for the golden rule...

[tod evans]

ok, riiight..when the price of gas gets back to 10 cents a gal. i'll work for rice and fish heads...geez...

It was a funny dude...

Although pathetically accurate..

[presence]

owners and management killed this company. Ask me how i know. I worked for Interstate Brands for 8 years as a dough mixer for Wonderbread/Hostess. All you who besmirch the Union don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

I posted this yesterday.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?395837-Do-Twinkies-really-last-forever

seeing as my thread died and this one floats... what do you guys think of this slant:



management was trying to make union workers the scapegoats for a plan by "Wall Street investors" to sell off Hostess.


The union said the private equity and hedge funds that control Hostess did not live up to promises to modernize plants and trucks but

grew the company's debt
while rewarding themselves financially.

That sounds like the Bain method to me.

[Confederate]

i'm still waiting for my apology from the mod. Perhaps insults by mods are tolerated now?...

Who did he insult? Last I checked unions are not ronpaulforums.com members...or people for that matter.

[JK/SEA]

OK, Unions 101 question here: why couldn't Hostess fire the whole lot of 'em, put up a help wanted sign, and watch the applications flow in during a time of massive unemployement? Be specific.

in right to work state maybe. I'm pretty sure if your scenario were played out, i can guarantee in a few years Unions would gain more prominence due to employer abuses. The workers, like back in the early 1900's would be getting together to form a union. This scenario of getting rid of unions reminds me of prohibition of alcohol. Yeah, looks good on paper, but in reality we'd end up with an army of new hard asses with the big whip. Ain't gonna fly.

[Tpoints]

An employee in a position has generally proven his worth.

Not that long ago loyalty and ethics carried weight in the business environment, your attitude and statements express loyalty only to profit, exactly as many have demonized Bain Capitol for..

Honestly it sickens me to listen to the views and justification used to exhibit unethical behavior, and that goes for workers as well as management.

As you move into life try very hard to remember Ron Paul getting booed for the golden rule...

I don't care what Bain Capital is good or bad for. I don't think I like unethical behavior any more than you do. And yes, I remember the golden rule.

[Confederate]

OK, Unions 101 question here: why couldn't Hostess fire the whole lot of 'em, put up a help wanted sign, and watch the applications flow in during a time of massive unemployement? Be specific.

Unions have probably strong-armed politicians into passing laws making that illegal.

[JK/SEA]

Who did he insult? Last I checked unions are not ronpaulforums.com members...or people for that matter.

the blanket comment of CJ's post an unions destroying shit is absurd and an insult to this union member. How about i insult the mods?...all of em..even though they are a fair bunch for the most part. What do you think would happen to me?...

[Tpoints]

I posted this yesterday.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?395837-Do-Twinkies-really-last-forever

seeing as my thread died and this one floats... what do you guys think of this slant:

That sounds like the Bain method to me.

I don't get the Bain method, can somebody explain it to me?

First of all, who would agree to let Bain own or manage them?
How does a company get into debt they don't want or can't pay? (if they do, whose fault is it?)
Who are the people "rewarding themselves" and "while the company goes into debt"? Who would allow it?

[Tpoints]

the blanket comment of CJ's post an unions destroying shit is absurd and an insult to this union member. How about i insult the mods?...all of em..even though they are a fair bunch for the most part. What do you think would happen to me?...

is anybody forcing you to stay here and endure insults??

[JK/SEA]

is anybody forcing you to stay here and endure insults??

so..TOS rules don't apply to mods..that what you're saying?

[Tpoints]

so..TOS rules don't apply to mods..that what you're saying?

No, didn't say that.

[tod evans]

I don't get the Bain method, can somebody explain it to me?

First of all, who would agree to let Bain own or manage them?
How does a company get into debt they don't want or can't pay? (if they do, whose fault is it?)
Who are the people "rewarding themselves" and "while the company goes into debt"? Who would allow it?

Read a bit on Interstate's financial woes and who profited from them, it's not all one side's good and the other bad.

Business isn't as simple as quarterly profit.......Unless that's what you want to focus on..

[Brian4Liberty]

OK, Unions 101 question here: why couldn't Hostess fire the whole lot of 'em, put up a help wanted sign, and watch the applications flow in during a time of massive unemployement? Be specific.

Already answered in earlier posts and links:


Based in Greenwich, Conn., Silver Point was founded in 2002 and has approximately $6.5 billion under management; its two co-founders are 49-year-old Edward Mulé and 47-year-old Robert O'Shea, both former Goldman Sachs (GS) partners.
...
Silver Point and Monarch, along with about 20 other lenders, owned about $450 million of Hostess secured debt at the time of the bankruptcy filing in 2004, according to court records. Remarkably, though -- given that Hostess's financials are now supposed to be an open book in federal bankruptcy court -- it's unclear how much the lenders actually paid for those notes. But it's presumably less than face value. Opportunistic investors like Silver Point and Monarch commonly buy distressed debt at a considerable discount. Their strategy: Invest in fundamentally "good" companies that have "bad" capital structures brought about by overborrowing, bankruptcy, or other corporate stresses.

Neither the specific amount put up by each investor nor the percentage of the total debt is public record (In re Hostess Brands, Case No. 12-22052). So it's impossible to know for sure how much "skin in the game" the creditors have. But according to sources with knowledge of Hostess's debt structure, Silver Point owns about 30% of the debt; Monarch, also about 30%; and the other lenders combined own the remaining 40%. Clearly, it was Silver Point and Monarch, along with Ripplewood, that had the biggest bets going forward.
...
(more good information at link)
...
As the majority equity holder, Ripplewood badly wanted to keep Hostess out of bankruptcy. It pleaded with the lenders to show flexibility, but they were not so inclined. They lenders held superior fiscal hands and had less downside if Hostess failed. In the event of a bankruptcy, given all the assets Hostess owned, the lenders would still walk away with millions.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-16/hostess-liquidation-curious-cast-characters-twinkie-tumbles


Bottom line: Creditors wanted to walk away with their money intact. Bankruptcy did that for them.

[ghengis86]

in right to work state maybe. I'm pretty sure if your scenario were played out, i can guarantee in a few years Unions would gain more prominence due to employer abuses. The workers, like back in the early 1900's would be getting together to form a union. This scenario of getting rid of unions reminds me of prohibition of alcohol. Yeah, looks good on paper, but in reality we'd end up with an army of new Boss Tweeds with the big whip. Ain't gonna fly.

In the Internet age, I doubt it. Whistleblowers can bring companies to their knees. Consumers can act in concert to affect change without the use of violence (absent government bailouts).

And, people are free to quit if they don't care for the wage or conditions.

[JK/SEA]

you want to complain about gas? try not having a car.

geez, if i knew you didn't have a car, you coulda had one of my beaters. I had 3 running ones but sold them for cheap a few years ago.