Target opens at 9 P.M. thanksgiving Day, Toys R US and Walmart, at 8 P.M. [Archive]

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 01:13 PM

I have worked jobs where I was required to work holidays and/or weekends. Days, nights, swing shifts. If I didn't like what I was required to work I found another job.

This. You think I like having to miss my Dawgs play college football every Saturday? Do you think I liked having to work holidays as a waiter and bartender? No, but that's when customers come in, and you know what, I need the work.

If you work in customer service related fields, then you can expect that you'll have to be on at times when the 9-5ers are off. This should not be an outrage, when there are plenty who would love to have the hours.

Business's have a prerogative to be open at times when they're likely to be patronized. If you don't like it, then advance your skills so you can have a better chance of working more convenient hours, if that's your prerogative.

The Goat

11-13-2012, 01:17 PM

I've worked 6am to 6pm or later on thanksgiving and Christmas doing plant maintenance. It wasn't a smack in the face it was my job.

Warrior_of_Freedom

11-13-2012, 01:27 PM

MY first employer tried telling me I had to work on New Years & Christmas day and I laughed in their face

amy31416

11-13-2012, 01:27 PM

I always liked working during the holidays because everyone else was on vacation. I had every lab available to me, every piece of equipment and I could get stuff done without the management weenies mucking up my time with meetings.

Prior to that, when I had retail jobs, I actually liked black Friday and that holidays because time went by so much faster when I was constantly busy.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 01:36 PM

MY first employer tried telling me I had to work on New Years & Christmas day and I laughed in their face

Ah, god bless this grand American entitlement that people assume that your interests trump what they're paying you to do. I assume you'd feel differently if you had a business that had work to be done during the holidays.

Sorry for ad-hominem, I mean no offense, but I see all the time employees who feel they're entitled to a paycheck without making it worth the employer paying them what they do.... It was eye-opening for me doing freelance work when I found out how much of my income would have to go to bringing someone on, particularly when they weren't pulling their weight to make it worth it.

Fact is, if there's demand during the holidays, someone has to work it. Don't take those jobs if you don't like it, or request off early if you're in a position to. I know I'm grateful for every paycheck I get. They owe me nothing more than that.

enjerth

11-13-2012, 01:53 PM

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 01:57 PM

pfft, they should open even earlier; get the women out of the house and let the men folk digest their food in peace.

frodus24

11-13-2012, 02:03 PM

Anti Federalist

11-13-2012, 02:05 PM

So, that's it. The holiday has officially been overrun* by the stampeding hordes of crazed consumers.

$pend.

* officially open to being overrun, anyways. We have yet to see if this will actually materialize. But chances are looking good.

This.

+rep

I wonder how many people will be crushed to death this year, in Boobus' mad rush to by cheap Chinese shit, which has helped cause the rapid loss of decent jobs that took into consideration home, family and holidays.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 02:06 PM

So, I am always amazed at this time of the year. People complain about being broke for 11 months out of the year, but damnit, they have plenty of money to blow on Black Friday through Christmas. Am I missing something?

Americans increasigly live beyond their means. Christams has been transformed into commercialism, to where not spending money on ones you care about somehow equates to not caring, even if you spend time together (what should be important).

Further, America has been a consumption-driven, not production-driven economy for quite some time.

I don't like it anymore than you, but no, you are not missing anything, and it's certainly nothing new.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 02:08 PM

It is one thing if you work in a hospital, or for power maintenance.
It is another thing if you work retail.

I don't care about Christmas or thanksgiving. I worked a few times on those holidays for a 24 hour gas station. (and I do think gas stations are essential on holidays).

But Wal-Mart?

Thanksgiving and Christmas is not sacred to me, so I wouldn't care, but I do feel for the people who feel these days are sacred and special times. And I would bet, 90% of Wal-Mart workers are not going to be happy to have to start getting ready for work right after Thanksgiving dinner with their family. They generally are the type of people who look forward to the holidays, who don't question the inanity of tradition.

Hey, fuck it. Let the holidays be cheapened some more. I am always glad to see tradition fail. Tradition is a prison. Especially Christian tradition. :) I'll go ahead and cheer right on with the slave mentality people who want to see the destruction of their sacred holidays for the new god, the invisible hand.

Anti Federalist

11-13-2012, 02:12 PM

Allow me a shameless cross post:

Ah, the joys of the coming global plantation, where race and creed and nationality and culture and everything that makes a human being unique is wiped clean, where the sins of the past are all washed away in a polyglot global orgy of mass consumption, binge spending on a never ending credit wheel toward well regulated and government defined happiness, all under the watchful eye of the global surveillance grid.

Zippyjuan

11-13-2012, 02:21 PM

Government should do something about this commercialization thing! Order businesses closed on holidays! Put limits on what people can spend! Require people to spend time with their families!

angelatc

11-13-2012, 02:25 PM

Government should do something about this commercialization thing! Order businesses closed on holidays! Put limits on what people can spend! Require people to spend time with their families!

Nope, but the refusal of people to stand up for themselves leaves them open to accepting a government that will do this.

I'm not a Walmart hater, and I would work there proudly. But I do so knowing the wages are crap, the benefits are meh, and the OT doesn't exist. All that is fine, but telling me I had to work on Thursday would be over my line. I'd like to see all the workers there politely say no, we're not going to do that. We will do everything else, but not that.

CaptainAmerica

11-13-2012, 02:27 PM

Michaels Arts and Craft Store is giving out mandatory shifts starting at 3pm -11pm on Thanksgiving Day

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 02:27 PM

Government should do something about this commercialization thing! Order businesses closed on holidays! Put limits on what people can spend! Require people to spend time with their families!

Exactly, this outrage over companies staying open at profitable times is pretty heavily ironic for a group that advocates free market.

If you're against the correcialism of Christmas and Thanksgiving, are you going out there and trying to help people realize that the true holiday spirit doesn't come from buying eachother crap? If not, then you have no justification to lambast companies for staying open at what has become a very in-demand time for consumerism.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 02:30 PM

Nope, but the refusal of people to stand up for themselves leaves them open to accepting a government that will do this.

I'm not a Walmart hater, and I would work there proudly. But I do so knowing the wages are crap, the benefits are meh, and the OT doesn't exist. All that is fine, but telling me I had to work on Thursday would be over my line. I'd like to see all the workers there politely say no, we're not going to do that. We will do everything else, but not that.

See my above post, because that's utterly ridiculous. As Dr. paul always says, you have to change the morality of the people, not force morality.

As long as there's demand there will be supply, and it would be absolutely foolish for companies to not do what they can to compete for that deamnd. It's the essence ofthe free market, and as much as I'm all for employees standing up for themselves, this is not something that I feel they have grounds to stand for, when the time is very clearly their employer's busy season. I don't see that as good reason to band together to force your employer to forego profits to the competition.

Zippyjuan

11-13-2012, 02:34 PM

UWDude

11-13-2012, 02:35 PM

Government should do something about this commercialization thing! Order businesses closed on holidays! Put limits on what people can spend! Require people to spend time with their families!

No, this isn't a job for governemnt.

It is a reason for organization, solidarity, and....

UNIONS, BABY!

Saaahlidarity forever!
Saaahlidarity forever!

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 02:36 PM

UWDude

11-13-2012, 02:37 PM

And you know what else?

Find me a mom-and-pop that would do this to their employees.

CaptainAmerica

11-13-2012, 02:39 PM

Exactly, this outrage over companies staying open at profitable times is pretty heavily ironic for a group that advocates free market.

If you're against the correcialism of Christmas and Thanksgiving, are you going out there and trying to help people realize that the true holiday spirit doesn't come from buying eachother crap? If not, then you have no justification to lambast companies for staying open at what has become a very in-demand time for consumerism.I'd have to say that this falls more in line with the subject of how the u.s. is more and more selfish about how others are treated. If the CEO is not working that day, why should anyone else?Its a moral issue, and sure laws shouldnt be made to restrict people from working or from intimidating their employees to work but hey...its immoral. I sure as hell know that everyone I work with understands that they have a right to work, but the minute they choose to object to working on Thanksgiving and black friday they lose their job and become another statistic to add to the unemployment number. Damned if you do,damned if you dont kind of situation and corporations know people are desperate. You know "Thanksgiving" use to be that one day that the entire family including uncles and aunts,cousins and grandparents would get together....unfortunately there is always someone missing because these corporations dont give a fuck about family.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 02:43 PM

And you know what else?
Find me a mom-and-pop that would do this to their employees.

I spent a thanksgiving cutting a truckload of angle iron for my dad's business. A new years eve, I spent wet dry vaccuuming a water filtration machine filled with all kinds of stuff.

My experience says mom and pops do what they have to do to stay in business and if that means putting people to work on a holiday, they will.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 02:43 PM

Curoius where the Government comes in on the decision of companies to be open on holidays? Is it banned? Is it mandated?

Depends on where you live, but Sunday laws were common when I was a kid.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 02:44 PM

Depends on where you live, but Sunday laws were common when I was a kid.

No car dealerships are open on sundays in NJ. by law.

alucard13mmfmj

11-13-2012, 02:45 PM

Ah... time to buy cheap chinese goods at their true prices.

Warrior_of_Freedom

11-13-2012, 02:45 PM

Michaels Arts and Craft Store is giving out mandatory shifts starting at 3pm -11pm on Thanksgiving Day

so stupid

Anti Federalist

11-13-2012, 02:47 PM

No car dealerships are open on sundays in NJ. by law.

Ocean Grove NJ.

Used to live there and not only was no business allowed, you couldn't even drive.

That was 30 years ago so I imagine that has changed.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

11-13-2012, 02:47 PM

Americans increasigly live beyond their means. Christams has been transformed into commercialism, to where not spending money on ones you care about somehow equates to not caring, even if you spend time together (what should be important).

No shit, and it's kinda hard for people like me who can't plan more than 1 day ahead. I try to give people gifts year round... but I don't enjoy having such a solid deadline at all. As far as places being open on thanksgiving, I like it. Maybe I need to go buy something. Those employees are usually paid time and a half and like it.

I've also quit jobs for mandatory holiday work, and much less than that. As an employee, I've quit plenty of jobs over trivial things. Lucky for me, Wal-Mart wouldn't even hire me. I would have quit there at the time of my choosing too. :)

I used to date a girl who was ultra concerned with giving employers 2 weeks notice. There were jobs I'd quit and not tell them until two hours afterward. lol. I always told her that they'd never give her two weeks notice, so why should she? And she worked some places where I feel she was clearly mistreated.

I'm just not seeing a problem here that people can't solve themselves as individuals.

And you know what else?

Find me a mom-and-pop that would do this to their employees.

I bet my own mom-and-pop have made me work a few thanksgivings. lol

UWDude

11-13-2012, 02:49 PM

Asking government to make it illegal is a red herring.

The real free market solution is unionization.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 02:49 PM

I'd have to say that this falls more in line with the subject of how the u.s. is more and more selfish about how others are treated. If the CEO is not working that day, why should anyone else?Its a moral issue, and sure laws shouldnt be made to restrict people from working or from intimidating their employees to work but hey...its immoral. I sure as hell know that everyone I work with understands that they have a right to work, but the minute they choose to object to working on Thanksgiving and black friday they lose their job and become another statistic to add to the unemployment number. Damned if you do,damned if you dont kind of situation and corporations know people are desperate. You know "Thanksgiving" use to be that one day that the entire family including uncles and aunts,cousins and grandparents would get together....unfortunately there is always someone missing because these corporations dont give a fuck about family.

Again, commercialism is the problem, not those who are suppliers to the demand.

Like I said, you don't change morality through force, you change morality through education. Preach against commercialism, but as long as there is demand there will be suppliers, and if you don't cater to it, your competition will.

Sorry, but people don't go into business to be nice over profitable. Sure it's great that most things shut down on Thanksgiving because of a recognition that it';s a time to spend with family, but if you're in retail, these are peak business times. It's just the way it is. You're not given anything in this world without providing value, in this case working at their peak business times.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 02:50 PM

Success: Find something that no one wants to do, do it, and charge people for it.

The years I worked in the restaurant biz I offered to work all night before Thanksgiving to make the restaurant pies for the Thanksgiving day menu/buffet.

The owner and manager loved me for it and I had the run of the place for many years.

If the owner needs you more than you need them you're doing it right. :)

EDIT:

Asking government to make it illegal is a red herring.

The real free market solution is unionization.
Now why would an individual seeking success want to be constrained by a group? Or am I missing something here?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 02:50 PM

Fine, find me a mom-and-pop retail store that would do this to their employees.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 02:52 PM

See my above post, because that's utterly ridiculous. As Dr. paul always says, you have to change the morality of the people, not force morality.

As long as there's demand there will be supply, and it would be absolutely foolish for companies to not do what they can to compete for that deamnd. It's the essence ofthe free market, and as much as I'm all for employees standing up for themselves, this is not something that I feel they have grounds to stand for, when the time is very clearly their employer's busy season. I don't see that as good reason to band together to force your employer to forego profits to the competition.

If this isn't something they don't have grounds to stand for, what is? And why do you get to pick, and not them?

Maybe today's fractured and blended families have ruined more than just their own lives. But in my corner of the world, Thanksgiving is a day of travel. Relatives come from all over the country to eat one meal, and it's been like that for years and years. I would not work on Thanksgiving or Christmas if I were asked to, because I have a different value system than my employer does.

Some things are worth more than yet another profitable day to our employer, at least to some of us. (and it's not like the profit would vanish if all the stores were closed. It just gets shifted to a different day.)

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 02:55 PM

Fine, find me a mom-and-pop retail store that would do this to their employees.

The mom-and-pop grocery store in my family's hometown (I actually know the owner's family), is always open on Thanksgiving. Why? because there's a demand for last minute groceries. Gas stations, many family-owned are almost all open on Thanksgiving, because people need gas.

The reason most places aren't open on Thanksgiving is usually far more because it's not worth opening over everyone spending time with their families, because most no-retail companies aren't open anyway. So yes, it is nice that many smaller companies (and most non-retail corporatinos for that matter) do this, but they wouldn't if it greatly affected their bottom line and got a good % of their customers swiped by the competition.

Being off on Thanksgiving is a perk, and so is paying them time and a half to work holidays, but should not be a job requirement to have it off if they really need you then.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 02:56 PM

Fine, find me a mom-and-pop retail store that would do this to their employees.

Did you know that Walmart is still considered a "family owned business"?

CaptainAmerica

11-13-2012, 02:56 PM

Again, commercialism is the problem, not those who are suppliers to the demand.

Like I said, you don't change morality through force, you change morality through education. Preach against commercialism, but as long as there is demand there will be suppliers, and if you don't cater to it, your competition will.

Sorry, but people don't go into business to be nice over profitable. Sure it's great that most things shut down on Thanksgiving because of a recognition that it';s a time to spend with family, but if you're in retail, these are peak business times. It's just the way it is. You're not given anything in this world without providing value, in this case working at their peak business times.Its only peak because they set it to be peak with their dumbass marked up margin values all year long and then droppin 1/3rd or half the margine mark up price on these days which they know would cause a mad house.

Zippyjuan

11-13-2012, 02:57 PM

Depends on where you live, but Sunday laws were common when I was a kid.

When I lived in London, most businesses were closed on Sundays. But should the government say that they should be open or closed on certain days?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 02:57 PM

The mom-and-pop grocery store in my family's hometown (I actually know the owner's family), is always open on Thanksgiving. Why? because there's a demand for last minute groceries. Gas stations, many family-owned are almost all open on Thanksgiving, because people need gas.

The reason most places aren't open on Thanksgiving is usually far more because it's not worth opening over everyone spending time with their families. So yes, it is nice that many smaller companies (and most non-retail corporatinos for that matter) do this, but they wouldn't if it greatly affected their bottom line and got a good % of their customers swiped by the competition.

Wow, that's a messed up mom and pop, because where I live, and when I lived in Seattle, Safeway and QFC, adn every other main chain closed before noon on thanksgiving and did not open until the 6 AM the next day.

Oh, yeah, that's right, those are UNION jobs. Damn unions demanding dignity!

And I already said gas stations are essential.

Anti Federalist

11-13-2012, 02:58 PM

Again, commercialism is the problem, not those who are suppliers to the demand.

Like I said, you don't change morality through force, you change morality through education. Preach against commercialism, but as long as there is demand there will be suppliers, and if you don't cater to it, your competition will.

Sorry, but people don't go into business to be nice over profitable. Sure it's great that most things shut down on Thanksgiving because of a recognition that it';s a time to spend with family, but if you're in retail, these are peak business times. It's just the way it is. You're not given anything in this world without providing value, in this case working at their peak business times.

Insane commercialism fostered and promoted by the same retail outlets that are now pushing "Black Friday" into Thursday.

It was not this way when I was growing up.

More than likely because there were still decent jobs to be had creating real value, instead of battling tenths of percentages of mark-ups on cheap Chinese made crap.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 02:59 PM

If this isn't something they don't have grounds to stand for, what is? And why do you get to pick, and not them?

Maybe today's fractured and blended families have ruined more than just their own lives. But in my corner of the world, Thanksgiving is a day of travel. Relatives come from all over the country to eat one meal, and it's been like that for years and years. I would not work on Thanksgiving or Christmas if I were asked to, because I have a different value system than my employer does.

Some things are worth more than yet another profitable day to our employer, at least to some of us. (and it's not like the profit would vanish if all the stores were closed. It just gets shifted to a different day.)

Everything you've said just highlights your freedom to not work for a company that doesn't share your values.

So yes, of course you have the right to strike with the rest of the employees, but you won't earn my respect for not respecting your employer's interests. There are many, many jobs where you're given a Thanksgiving break, but retail is the one area where someone needs to be there to provide a service there is demand for.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 02:59 PM

Did you know that Walmart is still considered a "family owned business"?
So what?
I said mom and pop, you know, where the owners actually work with their employees on a regular basis.

You know, have to look them in the eye and explain why they need them to sell porcelain swans on thanksgiving eve.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:00 PM

So yes, of course you have the right to strike with the rest of the employees, but you won't earn my respect for not respecting your employer's interests.

Oh drat, one of the slaves will not respect us for standing up to master.

let's see, sacred time with family, or respect of internet know-it-all.

Hmmm...

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:00 PM

Insane commercialism fostered and promoted by the same retail outlets that are now pushing "Black Friday" into Thursday.

It was not this way when I was growing up.

More than likely because there were still decent jobs to be had creating real value, instead of battling tenths of percentages of mark-ups on cheap Chinese made crap.

An unfortunate side-effect of competition and the free market, I agree, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, you have to change the morality of the people. Enforcing morality, particularly in the face of demand has never worked and never will.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 03:01 PM

So what?
I said mom and pop, you know, where the owners actually work with their employees on a regular basis.
You know, have to look them in the eye and explain why they need them to sell porcelain swans on thanksgiving eve.

you seem to have a real narrow definition for mom and pop store.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:04 PM

Oh drat, one of the slaves will not respect us for standing up to master.

let's see, sacred time with family, or respect of internet know-it-all.

Hmmm...

Alright just stop with the cheap shots. I've said many times in this thread that I share your morality, and I'm glad to have a job where my boss is nice enough to let me off to go spend time with my family over Thanksgiving. I don't like having to work college football Saturdays either, but I made a decision about which was more important to me, given my other options. I'm sorry some don't have better options than to work at a place open on those days, but if you're not filled with good options, maybe just maybe you should be appreciative for someone to give you a job, rather than have none.

But the way some want to treat this like a civil rights issue, rather than a matter of individual choice of volluntary association for both the employee and employer, is just plain bizarre. I'm not sure how it's so tough to understand that as long as there's demand, someone will be there to supply it.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:05 PM

you seem to have a real narrow definition for mom and pop store.

I asked the question to make the point.

Nameless, faceless corporations will tell their little slaves to do anything, because they don't have to treat them like human beings. They treat them like commodities.

And little sycophants like you like it that way, and your "real narrow definition" of free markets like it that way. Well, fine, sit in your shit and be happy with it. Work all the holidays you can and enjoy your money.

Just do us a favor and STFU when Wal-Mart workers unionize and demand their thanksgivings back.
(which I know you won't, but you know... whatever)

LoL

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:06 PM

Alright just stop with the cheap shots. I've said many times in this thread that I share your morality, and I'm glad to have a job where my boss is nice enough to let me off to go spend time with my family over Thanksgiving.

But the way some want to treat this like a civil rights issue, rather than a matter of individual choice of volluntary association for both the employee and employer, is just plain bizarre. I'm not sure how it's so tough to understand that as long as there's demand, someone will be there to supply it.

Cheap shots?

Hey, you are the one that said you wouldn't respect me for standing up for myself.

And to that I say... ...shove your respect. I don't care for, or want your respect.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:08 PM

When I lived in London, most businesses were closed on Sundays. But should the government say that they should be open or closed on certain days?

No, but several generations ago this argument could have been had about 15 hour days, or heated workspaces...all those things added to the employer's profitability When the employees decided that wasn't optimal, they used the government to force change onto the employers. I see no reason that this can't be used for the same reason - it has bleeding heart liberal cause written all over it.

Which is why I said I'd like to see the workers just say no.

Cowlesy

11-13-2012, 03:08 PM

Used to work on Christmas Day when I was a teen. Our whole crew just pitched in, divied up the hours and got it done.

I'd never go shopping on Thanksgiving, however.

Anti Federalist

11-13-2012, 03:08 PM

An unfortunate side-effect of competition and the free market, I agree, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, you have to change the morality of the people. Enforcing morality, particularly in the face of demand has never worked and never will.

Well, yes and no.

Without a doubt, people's attitudes have changed, and not for the better, I think.

At the same time, a dearth of jobs, especially for younger people, jobs that have the ability to pay a wage that would a man to support his family, has been caused by government rules, currency, credit and trade shenanigans.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:08 PM

Cheap shots?

Hey, you are the one that said you wouldn't respect me for standing up for myself.

And to that I say... ...shove your respect. I don't care for, or want your respect.

Read too much into that, why don'tcha. I know you don't care about my respect, it was a general use of the word I to convey a point that it's not admirable (in my opinion of course) to tell the person who's given you employment to shove it because you don't agree with doing what you were hired to do.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 03:10 PM

I asked the question to make the point.

Nameless, faceless corporations will tell their little slaves to do anything, because they don't have to treat them like human beings. They treat them like commodities.

And little sycophants like you like it that way, and your "real narrow definition" of free markets like it that way. Well, fine, sit in your shit and be happy with it. Work all the holidays you can and enjoy your money.

LoL

lol indeed. I learned growing up that child labor is a great american tradition, via that whole mom and pop business thing. I hope to pass that lesson onto my children as well.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:11 PM

Read too much into that, why don'tcha. I know you don't care about my respect, it was a general use of the word I to convey a point that it's not admirable (in my opinion of course) to tell the person who's given you employment to shove it because you don't agree with doing what you were hired to do.

If people do not stand up for themselves... ...they will be slaves.

So people who do stand up for themselves, deserve respect. And anybody that would denigrate them for standing up for themselves are worthless, selfish pigs. especially because those who stand up for themselves, are often doing it for those too spineless to do so as well.. ..the people who truly do not deserve respect.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:11 PM

Everything you've said just highlights your freedom to not work for a company that doesn't share your values.

So yes, of course you have the right to strike with the rest of the employees, but you won't earn my respect for not respecting your employer's interests. There are many, many jobs where you're given a Thanksgiving break, but retail is the one area where someone needs to be there to provide a service there is demand for.

Respect is best when mutual. I don't care about your respect any more than you care about mine. And my employer certainly has no reason to respect me - I'm an employee, not a partner.

Philhelm

11-13-2012, 03:13 PM

Ah, god bless this grand American entitlement that people assume that your interests trump what they're paying you to do. I assume you'd feel differently if you had a business that had work to be done during the holidays.

Sorry for ad-hominem, I mean no offense, but I see all the time employees who feel they're entitled to a paycheck without making it worth the employer paying them what they do.... It was eye-opening for me doing freelance work when I found out how much of my income would have to go to bringing someone on, particularly when they weren't pulling their weight to make it worth it.

Fact is, if there's demand during the holidays, someone has to work it. Don't take those jobs if you don't like it, or request off early if you're in a position to. I know I'm grateful for every paycheck I get. They owe me nothing more than that.

I think the issue at hand is the general shift in how businesses operate these days. Everything needs to be global, open 24/7, and instantaneous. Are we all to be plugged-in to our computers and phones so that we can be used by our employers at a moment's notice? I'm all for a truly free market, but I'm not going to pretend that modern employers warrant much personal commitment for the most part, especially considering that the idea of long-term employment and opportunities for growth within a single company are becoming ever more rare.

In a truly free market, we would see a drastic rise of small businesses that don't need to be 24/7 operations (obviously depending upon the nature of the work, mind you) and would be more employee-friendly. Sure, a business doesn't owe me more than compensation for the work that I perform, but I don't owe them my soul.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:14 PM

lol indeed. I learned growing up that child labor is a great american tradition, via that whole mom and pop business thing. I hope to pass that lesson onto my children as well.

So what are you saying? You saying child labor was one of those wonderful free market nuances that the damn commie unions took from us?

And why are you trying to use tradition as an argument? This a thread about thanksgiving... ....and working on thanksgiving is certainly NOT an American tradition, child labor or otherwise.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:15 PM

Used to work on Christmas Day when I was a teen. Our whole crew just pitched in, divied up the hours and got it done.

I'd never go shopping on Thanksgiving, however.

I worked at a hardware store. There's not much of a demand for paint and deadlocks on those two holidays.

I always said I'd never shop on Christmas or Thanksgiving either, but in Indiana, our neighbors were Jewish and they kept their store open, but only their family worked. So I figured that wasn't sacrilege, but I may have been misguided. Apparently they created a demand so huge that WalMart is opening.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:15 PM

lol indeed. I learned growing up that child labor is a great american tradition, via that whole mom and pop business thing. I hope to pass that lesson onto my children as well.

Precisely (though I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek), but this country was built on hard work, not entitlement. If you work hard then you can have a choice of where and when you work, but if your choices are limited, then dammit you do what you have to do to get by.

I've missed something like 5 close cousin's weddings because I had to work doing a job where getting off was tough (lots of travel involved), but you know what, I was very grateful for thast opportunity, even though it meant sacrifice. It was far better than being unemployed. If you don't feel that sacrifice is worth it, then by all means prioritize, but life is full of compromises you'll have to decide on. You're entitled to nothing that you don't earn.

Warrior_of_Freedom

11-13-2012, 03:17 PM

Child labor still exists in the form of statutory state-on-child mind rape 7 hours a day at school.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:18 PM

If people do not stand up for themselves... ...they will be slaves.

So people who do stand up for themselves, deserve respect. And anybody that would denigrate them for standing up for themselves are worthless, selfish pigs. especially because those who stand up for themselves, are often doing it for those too spineless to do so as well.. ..the people who truly do not deserve respect.
LOL, I've quit on an employer and reported him for not paying overtime, so don't talk down to me like you know me.

There's a difference between standing up for yourself, and reneging on doing the job you were hired to do. Different jobs require different hours and days.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:19 PM

Precisely (though I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek), but this country was built on hard work, not entitlement. If you work hard then you can have a choice of where and when you work...

LoL. Somebody obviously needs to read a bit about labor history.

I don't know how working 16 hours a day in sawmills and sweat shops wasn't hard enough work. Where were their choices? Why were all those fools working for a nickel a 16-hour day?

Oh yeah, because according to the TheGrinchWhoStoleDC, they weren't working hard enough.

ROTFLMAO

Really dude, do you ever think about how inane your cliches are before you post them?

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:20 PM

So what are you saying? You saying child labor was one of those wonderful free market nuances that the damn commie unions took from us?

And why are you trying to use tradition as an argument? This a thread about thanksgiving... ....and working on thanksgiving is certainly NOT an American tradition, child labor or otherwise.

No, I think he was pointing out the irony of you suggesting the mom-and-pop model.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 03:21 PM

Asking government to make it illegal is a red herring.

The real free market solution is unionization.

Now why would an individual seeking success want to be constrained by a group?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:21 PM

LOL, I've quit on an employer and reported him for not paying overtime

Who gave you the laws requiring time-and-a-half for overtime?

Certainly not people with your mindset in the 1930's.
Your slave mentality has always been the enemy of the common man.

Just do what you are told is required, slave.
DO NOT stand up for yourself.
And shun those who do, even though their risk and sacrifice was done precisely so you could have the power to demand payment for overtime.

Yes, people have sacrificed, specifically so ingrates like yourself can tell yourself you got everything you have by yourself.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:24 PM

Now why would an individual seeking success want to be constrained by a group?

Constrained? What are you talking about?

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:24 PM

LoL. Somebody obviously needs to read a bit about labor history.

I don't know how working 16 hours a day in sawmills and sweat shops wasn't hard enough work. Where were their choices? Why were all those fools working for a nickel a 16-hour day?

Oh yeah, because according to the TheGrinchWhoStoleDC, they weren't working hard enough.

ROTFLMAO

Really dude, do you ever think about how inane your cliches are before you post them?

WTF are you talking about? Now we're equating actual worker abuses with not getting off the holidays? I think that actually highlights the difference quite well. I've had to work many itmes I wish I didn't have to, but that's what I signed on for. It's completely different than actual abuses of labor to hire people to work at high-demand times.

Really dude, do you ever think about how inane your conclusions are before you post them?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:24 PM

No, I think he was pointing out the irony of you suggesting the mom-and-pop model.

There was no irony.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:26 PM

Who gave you the laws requiring time-and-a-half for overtime?

Certainly not people with your mindset in the 1930's.
Your slave mentality has always been the enemy of the common man.

Just do what you are told is required, slave.
DO NOT stand up for yourself.
And shun those who do, even though their risk and sacrifice was done precisely so you could have the power to demand payment for overtime.

Yes, people have sacrificed, specifically so ingrates like yourself can tell yourself you got everything you have by yourself.
Again, there's a difference between what you call slavery, and being hired to satisfy a demand. You are being so ridiculous about not everyone sharing your values, that I'm just not even continue with this BS.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:26 PM

Who gave you the laws requiring time-and-a-half for overtime?

Certainly not people with your mindset in the 1930's.
Your slave mentality has always been the enemy of the common man.

Just do what you are told is required, slave.
DO NOT stand up for yourself.
And shun those who do, even though their risk and sacrifice was done precisely so you could have the power to demand payment for overtime.

Yes, people have sacrificed, specifically so ingrates like yourself can tell yourself you got everything you have by yourself.

Slave mentality? OK, now you're making my point. The workers banded together and bought the force of government to impose their will upon their employers, which isn't an optimal outcome either.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 03:27 PM

No, I think he was pointing out the irony of you suggesting the mom-and-pop model.

More than anything I was just telling the truth. I grew up in a mom and pop business model and if we had to work on the holidays, we did. Mom and Pop shops aren't some panacea for worker happiness. You often get paid less and worker harder than the big boys. And the successful mom and pop shops sometimes become the big boys, eg: walmart.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:27 PM

WTF are you talking about?

How stupid and unrealistic this little cliche you quipped was:

"but this country was built on hard work, not entitlement. If you work hard then you can have a choice of where and when you work"

Really, TheGrinchWhoStoleDC? Is that how the real world operates, TheGrinchWhoStoleDC?

"If you work hard then you can have a choice of where and when you work."

You want to re-think how utterly absurd this notion is?

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:27 PM

Asking government to make it illegal is a red herring.

The real free market solution is unionization.

Only if there are competing unions.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:27 PM

There was no irony.

Actually I believe there was. You just highlighted all of the actual abuses that happened during the child labor era, whilst claiming it's better than asking someone to work the holidays. That is pretty damn ironic.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:30 PM

Again, there's a difference between what you call slavery, and being hired to satisfy a demand. You are being so ridiculous about not everyone sharing your values, that I'm just not even continue with this BS.

Of course not, because that would require you to ADMIT that UNIONS brought you, through sacrifice (sometimes blood and lives), and standing up for themselves, *your* ability to show a little spine and demand an employer pay you time-and-a-half.

So you sit their, and try to proudly point out how you had a spine this once, but don't acknowledge that it took men with real spines to get you that spine. They did it just so people like you could have some semblance of dignity at your workplace.

Philhelm

11-13-2012, 03:31 PM

Regardless of this or that, I think that the modern employment environment is becoming more Orwellian, which is why government needs to be taken out of the equation. And I'm sick of those piss ant interview intake sheets that ask inane questions that have nothing to do with the job. I'll be impressed if a potential employer actually asks me technical questions.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:32 PM

How stupid and unrealistic this little cliche you quipped was:

"but this country was built on hard work, not entitlement. If you work hard then you can have a choice of where and when you work"

Really, TheGrinchWhoStoleDC? Is that how the real world operates, TheGrinchWhoStoleDC?

"If you work hard then you can have a choice of where and when you work."

You want to re-think how utterly absurd this notion is?

Okay, let me clarify, if you work hard then you might have a chance to decide when and where you work. Because you're absolutely right, the real world owes you absolutely nothing (outside of not being actually abused and treated like a slave like you've claimed). If a company hires you, then you've signed on to work when they need you to work. You're not entitled to a paycheck strictlly on your terms if you're not willing to satisfy for their deamn for labor at high demand times.

It's completely different than this odd tangent you've taken us on trying to compare worker abuse with hiring people to perform a job when you need them.

You're really reaching here.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:32 PM

Actually I believe there was. You just highlighted all of the actual abuses that happened during the child labor era, whilst claiming it's better than asking someone to work the holidays. That is pretty damn ironic.

Uhh... I claimed child labor is better than asking someone to work the holidays?
Uhh... Ok, so I am posting all this pro-union stuff, and you think I prefer child labor to people working holidays?

Hello!? Hello!?

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 03:32 PM

Constrained? What are you talking about?

You don't see being in a group as constraining? What if a 'scab' doesn't share your same idea of success and wants to work hours that you don't want to work, or is willing to do something you won't do?

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:34 PM

Anti Federalist

11-13-2012, 03:35 PM

Only if there are competing unions.

There used to be, in my business.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 03:38 PM

A repeat from me -post #37 got buried pretty quick lol

Success: Find something that no one wants to do, do it, and charge people for it.

The years I worked in the restaurant biz I offered to work all night before Thanksgiving to make the restaurant pies for the Thanksgiving day menu/buffet.

The owner and manager loved me for it and I had the run of the place for many years.

If the owner needs you more than you need them you're doing it right.:)

phill4paul

11-13-2012, 03:38 PM

Just do us a favor and STFU when Wal-Mart workers unionize and demand their thanksgivings back.

Which they will get through loss of their jobs. Sometimes Unions work. Sometimes they don't. You seem to think that companies HAVE to accept unionization. They don't and even within the government they are not immune. Just ask the PATCO union members that lost their jobs under Reagan.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:38 PM

You don't see being in a group as constraining? What if a 'scab' doesn't share your same idea of success and wants to work hours that you don't want to work, or is willing to do something you won't do?

The unions shot themselves in the foot by using government to force demands onto employers, that's for sure.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:38 PM

Okay, let me clarify, if you work hard then you might ...

LoL, yeah dude, I'm sure that's what you meant when you posted it.
So how much of a percentage does this "might" entail? A 99% chance to decide when and where you work?
If that is the case, why didn't 99% of the sweat shop workers who worked 16 hours a day get a better job the next day?
That might is more like around 1 or 2%, isn't it. How hard you work has very little to do with it, doesn't it? A lot more of what determines when and where you work depends on where you were, and who you were born to, doesn't it?

It's completely different than this odd tangent you've taken us on trying to compare worker abuse with hiring people to perform a job when you need them.

You clearly do not understand. Telling millions of people they must work on a holiday that surely 80 - 90% of them feel is sacred, is a worker abuse.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:38 PM

Of course not, because that would require you to ADMIT that UNIONS brought you, through sacrifice (sometimes blood and lives), and standing up for themselves, *your* ability to show a little spine and demand an employer pay you time-and-a-half.

So you sit their, and try to proudly point out how you had a spine this once, but don't acknowledge that it took men with real spines to get you that spine. They did it just so people like you could have some semblance of dignity at your workplace.

Cool, I have no idea what that has to do with companies hiring people they need to work at high-demand times.

Blame the morality of the people who going shopping in droves to get the best deals on Black Friday, or the people who started us down this commercialism path, but not everyone shares your values, and there is demand, competition, which will always mean there's supply.

I respect worker's rights every bit as much as I respect employers rights to be open when they see fit. That doesn't fall under worker abuse. You are 100% free to not work at a place whose hours are inconvenient for you.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:40 PM

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:41 PM

No they didn't. They didn't give a rat's ass about me. They did it for profit.

Bullocks. They did it because they imagined a better world, and risked their lives for it. That is why they did it. They did it for justice.
It is such supreme ingratitude to suggest the workers of the 1930's demanded time and a half, 5 day workweeks, 8 hour workdays, child labor laws (Oh noes, evil laws!!!) and such, because they were just selfish pigs looking to line their own pockets.

Total balderdash and absolute nonsense.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:45 PM

Oh, let's not get overly dramatic. It isn't abuse. It's just a crappy policy.

No, it is abuse.
And god willing, one day, Wal-mart and Target employees will unionize, and end this crap. And then 30 years from then, people will cluck their tongues, and talk about how wrong it was of Wal-Mart and Target to try to steal thanksgiving and Christmas from the workers, and will rejoice about how the Wal-Mart union saved Christmas.

And all the people who sat around and out of blind ideology turned their eyes to the suffering of their fellow man, or even worse, preached and told themselves it was a necessary evil for the good of freedom through free markets, will be harrowed as the ever constant sycophant, dreaming of the day they could own people, and demand they give their holy days, or face financial ruin.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:46 PM

No, it is abuse.
And god willing, one day, Wal-mart and Target employees will unionize, and end this crap. And then 30 years from then, people will cluck their tongues, and talk about how wrong it was of Wal-Mart and Target to try to steal thanksgiving and Christmas from the workers, and will rejoice about how the Wal-Mart union saved Christmas.

And all the people who sat around and out of blind ideology turned their eyes to the suffering of their fellow man, or even worse, preached and told themselves it was a necessary evil for the good of freedom through free markets, will be harrowed as the ever constant sycophant, dreaming of the day they could own people, and demand they give their holy days, or face financial ruin.

Well, I'll never support unions, so I hope that doesn't happen.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:47 PM

Bullocks. They did it because they imagined a better world, and risked their lives for it. That is why they did it. They did it for justice.
It is such supreme ingratitude to suggest the workers of the 1930's demanded time and a half, 5 day workweeks, 8 hour workdays, child labor laws (Oh noes, evil laws!!!) and such, because they were just selfish pigs looking to line their own pockets.

Yeah, ok. :rolleyes:

Seeking to profit = selfish pig. Got it.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:47 PM

Cool, I have no idea what that has to do with companies hiring people they need to work at high-demand times.

It's a high demand time, because they are making it a high demand time.

Philhelm

11-13-2012, 03:48 PM

Regarding children, I think that their cute little fingers are ideal for cleaning out the nooks and crannies of heavy machinery. ;)

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:48 PM

Well, I'll never support unions, so I hope that doesn't happen.

Yeah, well, lucky for you, you have your job where you don't have to work thanksgiving.
You got yours. Screw the rest of 'em. As long as you have your thanksgiving.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 03:49 PM

No response to constraining those who have a different idea of success?

I thought you'd reply -but maybe your group won't let you -or maybe your on break. :D;)

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:50 PM

Yeah, ok. :rolleyes:

Seeking to profit = selfish pig. Got it.

That is what you seemed to insinuate.

You said, "Oh noes, the unions did not demand things for me, no, no, they did it because they wanted more money!"
Is that not in essence what you wrote?

It is. And you are dead wrong.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 03:50 PM

Bullocks. They did it because they imagined a better world, and risked their lives for it. That is why they did it. They did it for justice.
It is such supreme ingratitude to suggest the workers of the 1930's demanded time and a half, 5 day workweeks, 8 hour workdays, child labor laws (Oh noes, evil laws!!!) and such, because they were just selfish pigs looking to line their own pockets.

Total balderdash and absolute nonsense.

How many unions have you been a paying member of?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:51 PM

No response to constraining those who have a different idea of success?

I thought you'd reply -but maybe your group won't let you -or maybe your on break. :D;)

I don't care about your anecdote how you baked pies once on a non-holiday. It's not relevant.

There, you happy? I replied.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:51 PM

How many unions have you been a paying member of?

none.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:51 PM

Regarding children, I think that their cute little fingers are ideal for cleaning out the nooks and crannies of heavy machinery. ;)

He's a union sycophant. I'm guessing he doesn't want to acknowledge the government corruption and violence that the union bosses brought with them.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:52 PM

He's a union sycophant.

Damn straight I am.

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 03:53 PM

none.
funny that. You love unions and havent been a member. I am not a fan of them and have been a member.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:54 PM

That is what you seemed to insinuate.

You said, "Oh noes, the unions did not demand things for me, no, no, they did it because they wanted more money!"
Is that not in essence what you wrote?

It is. And you are dead wrong.

No, you're attaching a false romanticism, when the cold hard truth is that unions and the members are driven by the exact same motivation as the market. Profit.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 03:54 PM

LoL, yeah dude, I'm sure that's what you meant when you posted it.
So how much of a percentage does this "might" entail? A 99% chance to decide when and where you work?
If that is the case, why didn't 99% of the sweat shop workers who worked 16 hours a day get a better job the next day?
That might is more like around 1 or 2%, isn't it. How hard you work has very little to do with it, doesn't it? A lot more of what determines when and where you work depends on where you were, and who you were born to, doesn't it?

You clearly do not understand. Telling millions of people they must work on a holiday that surely 80 - 90% of them feel is sacred, is a worker abuse.

There are many factors that go into employability, not the least of which of which are skills, hard work and resume to show that you cna be trusted. However I can assure you that entitlement beyond basic human rights is not among the characteristics any employer is looking for, not even the nice ones who give the perk of being off Thanksgiving. It's a perk, it is not a basic human right to demand a paycheck but only work when you want to work and not when they need you to.

Note that there are 3 companies doing this, because Black Friday has created a great amount of competition to cause this. So blame Black Friday, because your rights ain't being violated. Hell, you also have the right to be the first to request off. That's what I did to be able to have more than just Thanksgiving day off.

Frankly the fact that my employer is a small employer and in retail (craft beer and wine) is more reason it's only Thanksgiving and not a whole break like the vast majority of companies (many large corporations) enjoy as a perk. He can;t afford to do that and lose business. I was hired with the assumption that we were open during the holidays, and I decided it was worth the risk I may have to work. Life is full of give and takes, but you're not entitlted to anything beyond basic human rights.

Does that make it clear? I really should have just put you on ignore after the ad-hominems, but my hope is that this clarification will help you with introspection. Not holding my breath though.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 03:55 PM

funny that. You love unions and havent been a member.

Why is that funny?
Unions brought me the 8 hour work day. Thank you. I love unions. They brought me the five day work week. Thank you. I love unions. They ended child labor. thank you, I love unions. They brought me time and a half for over time. Thank you. I love unions. They raised wages for all workers, by raising the standard. Thank you, I love unions.

But because I've never myself been in a union... ...uh... yeah... funny, silly, silly me.

AGRP

11-13-2012, 03:58 PM

As a consumer, I make note of the businesses who are open on these days and my view of them adjusts accordingly.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 03:58 PM

Philhelm

11-13-2012, 03:58 PM

funny that. You love unions and havent been a member. I am not a fan of them and have been a member.

I'm generally not a fan of unions and haven't been a member of one (unless the Republican party counts, at least on a philosophical level?), but unions would certainly exist in a free market. I think the problem with unions, as with anything else, is when government gets involved. I don't have a problem with a group of people asking for a redress of grievances with their employer. I do have an axe to grind with modern unions, especially when government workers are unionized, and amongst those, especially police unions.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 04:01 PM

I'm generally not a fan of unions and haven't been a member of one (unless the Republican party counts, at least on a philosophical level?), but unions would certainly exist in a free market. I think the problem with unions, as with anything else, is when government gets involved. I don't have a problem with a group of people asking for a redress of grievances with their employer. I do have an axe to grind with modern unions, especially when government workers are unionized, and amongst those, especially police unions.

That's why there has to be competing unions. Michigan isn't even a right-to-work state, so in essence what we have is monopolies on the labor market.

Philhelm

11-13-2012, 04:01 PM

As a consumer, I make note of the businesses who are open on these days and my view of them adjusts accordingly.

Me too. Take Chick-fil-A for instance, the fast food restaurant that marinates its chicken with holy water. I've always respected the company for being closed on Sundays, since it's so much different to the modern, 24/7 monstrosity of today.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 04:03 PM

Why is that funny?
Unions brought me the 8 hour work day. Thank you. I love unions. They brought me the five day work week. Thank you. I love unions. They ended child labor. thank you, I love unions. They brought me time and a half for over time. Thank you. I love unions. They raised wages for all workers, by raising the standard. Thank you, I love unions.

But because I've never myself been in a union... ...uh... yeah... funny, silly, silly me.

Funny, I wonder why the unions haven't tackled this pressing issue of your right to not work on the holidays yet. :rolleyes:

Actually, you know what that's between the employer and the union, but if you sign on to a job where it's understood you may have to work weekends, weddings, holidays like I do, then don't go throwing a bitchfit when it happens.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:03 PM

There are many factors that go into employability,

employability? You said if you work hard, you can determine when and where you work. Then you said "might". That's called a weasel word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Note that there are 3 companies doing this, because Black Friday has created a great amount of competition to cause this. So blame Black Friday, because your rights ain't being violated. Hell, you also have the right to be the first to request off. That's what I did to be able to have more than just Thanksgiving day off.

Black Friday created this demand. Hmmm... ...was it the alignment of the stars? The phase of the moon? Exactly what was it about this day that created the demand? The paucity of goods on this day, perhaps? Yes, yes, it must be supply and demand that created this competition and demand.

Frankly the fact that my employer is a small employer and in retail (craft beer and wine) is more reason it's only Thanksgiving and not a whole break like the vast majority of companies (many large corporations) enjoy as a perk. He can;t afford to do that and lose business. I was hired with the assumption that we were open during the holidays, and I decided it was worth the risk I may have to work. Life is full of give and takes, but you're not entitlted to anything beyond basic human rights.

Entitled?
Why not?
Why are people who sacrifice time from their lives for the benefit of a corporation not entitled to some things themselves? They are entitled to pay, are they not? They are entitled to fair wages... ..right.. or do you think that fair wages is not an entitlement? As long as an employer pays a penny a day, it's not slavery. All people are only entitled to a penny a day. Wait, no no, half a penny. Yes, entitled to half a penny. Or why even any money at all, how about just room and board?

They are entitled to days off, are they not? Or again, do you think that a person should have to work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, if their employer deems it necessary.

Oh, wait, 365 days a year, yes, yes you do believe that. Thanksgiving be damned.

OK.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:05 PM

Actually, you know what that's between the employer and the union, but if you sign on to a job where it's understood you may have to work weekends, weddings, holidays like I do, then don't go throwing a bitchfit when it happens.

Why not? Why shouldn't I say, no, no I won't work that day? Because you don't like to see people standing up for themselves? What about that pisses you off so?

specsaregood

11-13-2012, 04:06 PM

That's why there has to be competing unions. Michigan isn't even a right-to-work state, so in essence what we have is monopolies on the labor market.

And in the meantime, here in union-run NJ we have people still without utilities due to the storm and out of state contractors sent away because they weren't union.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:07 PM

Funny, I wonder why the unions haven't tackled this pressing issue of your right to not work on the holidays yet. :rolleyes:

Are you sure they haven't?
And maybe, because coporations with unionized workforces, like Albertsons, Safeway, and QFC, know better than to press their luck.

AGRP

11-13-2012, 04:09 PM

Me too. Take Chick-fil-A for instance, the fast food restaurant that marinates its chicken with holy water. I've always respected the company for being closed on Sundays, since it's so much different to the modern, 24/7 monstrosity of today.

Big respect to them. I cant help but notice what businesses are open on certain holidays. I have a general list in my mind of which ones are open and closed mostly because its hard not to notice. Im sure some employees dont mind too much, but its still an incredibly trashy thing to do.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 04:09 PM

I don't care about your anecdote how you baked pies once on a non-holiday. It's not relevant.

There, you happy? I replied.

You dodged the question.

Why would someone want to have their success be constrained by a group?

Have I mentioned my restaurant double days?

7 a.m. to midnight 4 days a week with a "1/2 day" (one shift) on the fifth. Sometimes 5 days and a "1/2 day" Sometimes 6 days with a "1/2 day" on the 7th.

I used to work an insane amount of doubles -voluntarily. I had a different idea of success than some of my fellow employess. There were about three of us 'double workin' fools' in an employee pool of about 30.

If we had been unionized, there's a good chance the 'double workin' fools' would have been constrained by the others who chose to not work doubles for whatever reason.

Some are content to dictate what success others shall have and call it 'helping them'.

Hiding in the herd is fine, but constraining others attempts at success is wrong -especially when you don't own the place of employment. Maybe we agree on that part but I can't tell from your reply.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 04:12 PM

[QUOTE=TheGrinchWhoStoleDC;4732302]There are many factors that go into employability, {/quote]

employability? You said if you work hard, you can determine when and where you work. Then you said "might". That's called a weasel word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Black Friday created this demand. Hmmm... ...was it the alignment of the stars? The phase of the moon? Exactly what was it about this day that created the demand? The paucity of good on this day, perhaps? Yes, yes, it must be supply and demand that created this competition and demand.

Entitled?
Why not?
Why are people who sacrifice time from their lives for the benefit of a corporation not entitled to some things themselves? They are entitled to pay, are they not? They are entitled to fair wages... ..right.. or do you think that fair wages is not an entitlement? As long as an employer pays a penny a day, it's not slavery. All people are only entitled to a penny a day.

They are entitled to days off, are they not? Or again, do you think that a person should have to work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, if their employer deems it necessary.

Oh, wait, 365 days a year, yes, yes you do believe that. Thanksgiving be damned.

OK.

Oh man, I wish you hadn't wasted all of my energy so that I could get into the minimum wage fallacy.

The weasel word you claim was you taking me too literally in a gotcha attempt that forced me to clarify.

Black Friday was assuredly created by competition. I'm not sure who it was first, but someone got the idea that it was good business to start Chrsitmas sales the day after Thanksgiving, which has led to competition among who will be first for those dollars. As I said in the beginning of the thread, I don't liek the commercialization of Christams anymore than anyone, but it is what it is at this point. All you can do now is change the morality of the peolle to not buy crap to show eachother they care when they can do that for free. Otherwise there will always be demand and thus supply.

You are entitled to not be abused by employers, such as you have said through things like unions. But jsut the same, companies are entitled to stay open whenever they see fit. It is no coincidence there is no law on the books against working holidays, because frankly, there are employers who have no choice but to be open then. My employer is one of those. He's not some fat cat who doesn't care. He's trying to make a living too.

Hope that makes it all clear, because you've wasted far too much of my day off, and I regret all the people who have to read this ridciulous tangent this thread has taken.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:12 PM

They also brought murder, graft, violence, and unemployment.

yeah, corruption is a bitch, isn't it?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:18 PM

Oh man, I wish you hadn't wasted all of my energy so that I could get into the minimum wage fallacy.

Who is talking about minimum wage?

The weasel word you claim was you taking me too literally in a gotcha attempt that forced me to clarify.

No, you wrote the stupid, un-thought out cliche, that "hard work brings freedom". One you obviously have never really pondered, but always thought sounded good. When I challenged you your cliche, you changed your cliche to "hard work 'might' bring freedom". That way, there is no real quantifiable way to determine how much hard work has to be done for this freedom, but it still allows you to feel good that your sacred cliche is correct. That is exactly what a weasel word is. You even bolded your weasel word for me, to make it seem like it was really important, and surely, I could not deny, with a "might" added to your cliche, that it was now true.

That is what weasel words are for. That is exactly how you used it.

You are entitled to not be abused by employers, such as you have said through things like unions. But jsut the same, companies are entitled to stay open whenever they see fit.

we finally agree on something.
But why is it, that when people say, "you know, I don't want to work in these conditions, or on this day, or for this pay" suddenly you act like they are morally wrong?

What is it about people demanding more from their employers that pisses you off?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:22 PM

Why would someone want to have their success be constrained by a group?

No I didn't, I asked you WTF you were talking about.

Have I mentioned my restaurant double days?

7 a.m. to midnight 4 days a week with a "1/2 day" (one shift) on the fifth. Sometimes 5 days and a "1/2 day" Sometimes 6 days with a "1/2 day" on the 7th.

I used to work an insane amount of doubles -voluntarily. I had a different idea of success than some of my fellow employess. There were about three of us 'double workin' fools' in an employee pool of about 30.

I hope you gave yourself a lot of cookies for that?

If we had been unionized, there's a good chance the 'double workin' fools' would have been constrained by the others who chose to not work doubles for whatever reason.

And you base this conclusion on what?

Hiding in the herd is fine, but constraining others attempts at success is wrong -especially when you don't own the place of employment.

OK?

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 04:26 PM

What is it about people demanding more from their employers that pisses you off?

What is it about employers hiring people at an agreed upon wage to work agreed upon times that pisses you off?

Anyways, it's clear you just want to play gotcha, since you declined responding to the fact that my employer has no choice but to be open over the Thanksgiving and Christmas breaks. Both me and him would greatly appreciate it if you left us out of your crusade to save Thanksgiving, because we're trying to make a living the best we know how, and forcing him to only open when you think is okay could well result in the loss of my job if he cannot afford to pay me because he lost business at peak times.

Different jobs require different hours. It really sucks because I wish the world could shut down so I could just watch football on Saturdays, but then of course it's not fair to those poor football players, commentators and crew that have to work football games on the holidays. Guess we should just all do nothing and require nothing over the holidays, and just hope that no competition will come in and supply the demand.

Sorry, the world doesn't work on your watch.

phill4paul

11-13-2012, 04:28 PM

And god willing, one day, Wal-mart and Target employees will unionize, and end this crap.

ain't gonna happen. Not at the retail level in this economy anyway. They would be replaced as soon as they were fired.

amy31416

11-13-2012, 04:28 PM

LOL, I've quit on an employer and reported him for not paying overtime, so don't talk down to me like you know me.

There's a difference between standing up for yourself, and reneging on doing the job you were hired to do. Different jobs require different hours and days.

Not really directed toward you, since this thread turned into a spat. I'll just say this: I worked for a farmer over Christmas holiday selling Christmas trees when I was in college, I worked 80 or so hours/week--whatever was required. No OT--but I got paid in cash, so no taxes. Worked out better for me and the farmer. No way I'd ever turn someone in for it, I'd just refuse the work if it bothered me. One of the most fun jobs I ever had.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:32 PM

What is it about employers hiring people at an agreed upon wage to work agreed upon times that pisses you off?

Nothing. But if workers say they don't want to work on thanksgiving for a pointless sale, then god bless 'em for having a backbone.

And by the way, these sales keep creeping deeper and deeper into the thanksgiving holiday. I am sure most of the Wal Mart workers were hired before they were told they would have to work on Thanksgiving.

Not that it matters. There clearly is only one reason Wal-Mart thinks it can destroy its worker's day off. And that is more days off for the owners and stockholders.

since you declined responding to the fact that my employer has no choice but to be open over the Thanksgiving and Christmas breaks.

Did I? What does your employer do? I already said there are many services I believe are essential... ..and I even said gas stations were, which really, they aren't like hospitals, but you know, lots of people don't fill up the day before, and lots of people take long vacations, and need gas to get to their families.

But it's not like people need a big screen tv on Thanksgiving day, and not the day after. No, there is nothing essential about Wal-Mart being open on Thanksgiving.

Both me and him would greatly appreciate it if you left us out of your crusade to save Thanksgiving, because we're trying to make a living the best we know how, and forcing him to only open when you think is okay could well result in the loss of my job if he cannot afford to pay me because he lost business at peak times.

I am forcing your employer to close on Thanksgiving? Really? I could have sworn I this thread was about Wal-Mart and Target.

The Free Hornet

11-13-2012, 04:34 PM

Of course not, because that would require you to ADMIT that UNIONS brought you, through sacrifice (sometimes blood and lives), and standing up for themselves, *your* ability to show a little spine and demand an employer pay you time-and-a-half.

So you sit their, and try to proudly point out how you had a spine this once, but don't acknowledge that it took men with real spines to get you that spine. They did it just so people like you could have some semblance of dignity at your workplace.

Most of these laws followed pre-existing trends. They were more descriptive than prescriptive. Child labor decreased because the need to have children working to ensure their and the family's survival is not generally an issue. If you were sent back in time to the bronze age would you try to improve things by keeping people from working until 18, limiting the work week of adults, and increasing the pay of fiat wompumbucks?

Perhaps you would cut through all that BS and just outlaw starvation?

You have been fooled by the almighty dollar. Getting 50% more monopoly money is not a value. I'd concern myself with the totality of the paycheck and what it is worth. Politicians just love useful idiots who keep score with their fiat currency.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 04:34 PM

Not really directed toward you, since this thread turned into a spat. I'll just say this: I worked for a farmer over Christmas holiday selling Christmas trees when I was in college, I worked 80 or so hours/week--whatever was required. No OT--but I got paid in cash, so no taxes. Worked out better for me and the farmer. No way I'd ever turn someone in for it, I'd just refuse the work if it bothered me. One of the most fun jobs I ever had.

My apologies for feeding the ridiculousess. I'm sucker for being reeled in.

I've done the same working at a pine farm under the table during Christams season. As a teenager, I valued the independence of having my own money over having the break off from school, so I don't give a damn if someone has different values. Go work for those who share your values, because I have my own reasons I won't go to work for most corporations, even though it would likely increase my worth. Life is full of give-and-takes, but nothing is given to you unless you're incredibly lucky.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 04:41 PM

Did I? What does your employer do? I already said there are many services I believe are essential... ..and I even said gas stations were, which really, they aren't like hospitals, but you know, lots of people don't fill up the day before, and lots of people take long vacations, and need gas to get to their families.

But it's not like people need a big screen tv on Thanksgiving day, and not the day after. No, there is nothing essential about Wal-Mart being open on Thanksgiving.

I am forcing your employer to close on Thanksgiving? Really? I could have sworn I this thread was about Wal-Mart and Target.
You're missing the point entirely. If Walmart doesn't open, then Target will. If Target doesn't then Toys r us will, etc., etc. That's how this started in the first place, that places ran sales, more followed suit to compete, and people shopped on what became known as Black Friday.

So unless you want all of the companies in the world to sign a treaty that only non-essetnails are to be sold during the holidays, then there will be competition waiting to take your market share if you're not there to supply the demand.

"I am forcing your employer to close on Thanksgiving? Really? I could have sworn I this thread was about Wal-Mart and Target. "

OK gotcha, so only the big corporations you deem unworthy apply to this "no working on holidays" rule you have. Seems your view stems from anti-corporatism (which I share to a degree, but am not about to legislate my bias) and not logic, because logic dictates that demand will be met with supply, and if you don't, someone else will swoop in and take your customers away.

What exactly is your solution then? Because I agree it's between a company and their employees.

angelatc

11-13-2012, 04:42 PM

Are you sure they haven't?
And maybe, because coporations with unionized workforces, like Albertsons, Safeway, and QFC, know better than to press their luck.

Most Safeway stores are open, actually. I don't know what Albertsons does now that Super Valu owns them, and I have never heard of QFC, but a quick Google search indicates they're also open.

Those are actually some of the worst unions around. The grocers keep their employee hours at just under the amount that's required to provide benefits, and use the money that's saved to hire extra people. The unions allow it, because more members mean more dues.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 04:43 PM

No I didn't, I asked you WTF you were talking about.

I hope you gave yourself a lot of cookies for that?

And you base this conclusion on what?

OK?

Jennifer Ann, another Target employee, also has a petition calling on Target to save Thanksgiving for employees. “Family has always been important to me and Thanksgiving is all about family,” she wrote. “I love seeing family that we haven't seen in years and spending time with each other on the only day when we can all get together. Last year, it became clear to me that for some large retailers, this holiday isn't about family or being grateful at all.”

Jennifer Ann has a different idea of success than some of her fellow employees. Jennifer apparantly prefers family time over $'s -good for her, it's great she's in that position to turn down hours.

Yet this is also mentioned:

Not all employees are thrilled about having to come to work on the holiday.

"Not all employees" implies that some would prefer to chase $'s as is their right and has NOTHING to do with those who choose otherwise. Jennifer does not mention allowing for other employees to work the hours that she does not care to work herself.

Zippyjuan

11-13-2012, 04:58 PM

Most Safeway stores are open, actually. I don't know what Albertsons does now that Super Valu owns them, and I have never heard of QFC, but a quick Google search indicates they're also open.

Those are actually some of the worst unions around. The grocers keep their employee hours at just under the amount that's required to provide benefits, and use the money that's saved to hire extra people. The unions allow it, because more members mean more dues.

Walmart does that (they aren't union- neither is Target) but I have friends in the grocery industry (Safeway, Kroger/Ralphs, Albertsons, Food For Less) and their contract has a minimum hours requirement and that minimum is enough to qualify for benefits. Stores near me are open the holidays (shorter hours on Thanksgiving and Christmas). Lets people go in and buy the stuff they forgot for their holiday dinners (I went there on Thanksgiving and it was insanely busy).

UWDude

11-13-2012, 04:59 PM

You're missing the point entirely.

So I didn't get the details of your situation, and you won't give them to me... ...but you still want me to address your personal situation?
How win/win for you!

If Walmart doesn't open, then Target will. If Target doesn't then Toys r us will, etc., etc. That's how this started in the first place, that places ran sales, more followed suit to compete, and people shopped on what became known as Black Friday.

They won't if the workers refuse to work that day. It's gonna have to stop sometime, or soon Wal Mart will be able to do whatever it wants. (I know, I know, there are these horrible things called laws that would stop them from not paying time and a half for OT and such, but we will dismantle those soon enough for more prosperity and freedom)

So unless you want all of the companies in the world to sign a treaty that only non-essetnails are to be sold during the holidays, then there will be competition waiting to take your market share if you're not there to supply the demand.

In the world? Really? The holidays are not worldwide. And people can't shop far away from their home. But a treaty between workers and companies... yeah, I do want that. Yes.

"I am forcing your employer to close on Thanksgiving? Really? I could have sworn I this thread was about Wal-Mart and Target. "

OK gotcha, so only the big corporations you deem unworthy apply to this "no working on holidays" rule you have.

You are the one that wanted to make this about your family business about which you will not give details on why your dad makes you work thanksgiving.

And like I said already, it's not a rule I have. I don't care. These holidays are not sacred to me. But i know they are to most of the workers who work at these places, and I think, if they don't want to work on Thanksgiving, they should stand up, together, and say "No!"

Seems your view stems from anti-corporatism (which I share to a degree, but am not about to legislate my bias) and not logic, because logic dictates that demand will be met with supply, and if you don't, someone else will swoop in and take your customers away.

Whose customers? Wal Mart Inc customers?
BFD.

Targets?

BFD.

I don't care about them losing money. I care about the workers having their holiday. I care about the workers having a few extra hours with family they see once a year or less.

And if all retail is closed on Thanksgiving, because workers learn how to stand up for themselves again, then nobody loses anything, and everybody wins. The way it ought to be.

What exactly is your solution then? Because I agree it's between a company and their employees.

STRIKE! STRIKE! STRIKE!

UWDude

11-13-2012, 05:02 PM

Those are actually some of the worst unions around. The grocers keep their employee hours at just under the amount that's required to provide benefits, and use the money that's saved to hire extra people. The unions allow it, because more members mean more dues.

Quelle horreur!

UWDude

11-13-2012, 05:04 PM

"Not all employees" implies that some would prefer to chase $'s as is their right and has NOTHING to do with those who choose otherwise. Jennifer does not mention allowing for other employees to work the hours that she does not care to work herself.

That bitch!

angelatc

11-13-2012, 05:08 PM

Quelle horreur!
But they get none of the benefits of the full time employees. What does the union do for them?

UWDude

11-13-2012, 05:09 PM

But they get none of the benefits of the full time employees. What does the union do for them?

Union pay.

And either way, more people working is not a bad thing. Benefits or not. It increases demand for the worker, which increases wages.

Zippyjuan

11-13-2012, 05:14 PM

But they get none of the benefits of the full time employees. What does the union do for them?

The grocery union employees do get the benefits. According to my friend (Safeway), the only difference between full time and part time is that full time is guaranteed 40 hours a week and part time are guaranteed 24 hours (enough to get their other benefits- they need to average 18 hours to qualify). They also get a bit more pay for vacation and holidays. Otherwise the same.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 05:15 PM

That bitch!

If you're trying to feed your family or get ahead and someone is suggesting all should stay home then yeah, she is a bitch -a controlling bitch who would constrain the success of others to satisfy her own comfort level.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 05:17 PM

If you're trying to feed your family or get ahead and someone is suggesting all should stay home then yeah, she is a bitch -a controlling bitch who would constrain the success of others to satisfy her own comfort level.

And if you are someone trying to feed your family on thanksgiving, or get head on thanksgiving, and people are insisting you go to work, then yeah, they are bitches - controlling hypocritical bitches who themselves are feeding their own families to a thanksgiving dinner, and getting head.

We seem to be at an impasse, don't we?

So is it money and prostitution, or family and prostitution.

I'll go ahead and side with those who want time with their families.
I know it's terrible. And I don't even hold Thanksgiving sacred... ...but my family does, and I attend for their sake.
I know.. I know... I must have some selfish intention for attending thanksgiving, and it is the cranberry salad my mom makes.
And of course, I have some selfish intention for being mad on behalf of workers who hold a holiday sacred that I do not. I am sure you can come up with plenty of selfish and diabolical reasons to project on me.

MelissaWV

11-13-2012, 05:49 PM

It deserves saying again.

Those poor workers can work another day, or they can change jobs, or they can actually talk to their supervisors ahead of time and ask for time off to be with their families. They can trade shifts.

Or they can work. I worked until close on Thanksgiving at the grocery store a few times. It was packed, hectic, hot, and people were rude and angry that we were closing early. I got paid for it. At the end of the shift, the bosses gave us all the spare pies and flowers. They did the same thing at Christmas (since we were closed Christmas Day) and for New Year's.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 05:53 PM

Those poor workers can work another day, or they can change jobs, or they can actually talk to their supervisors ahead of time and ask for time off to be with their families. They can trade shifts.

I just don't understand what planet you all speak of when you talk about people changing jobs all the time.
By the way, if your resume has too many job changes, you don't get hired any more.
And no, everybody who wants thanksgiving off does not get it off.

Except the shareholders, of course. I am sure they have wonderful thanksgivings.

Or they can work. I worked until close on Thanksgiving at the grocery store a few times. It was packed, hectic, hot, and people were rude and angry that we were closing early. I got paid for it. At the end of the shift, the bosses gave us all the spare pies and flowers. They did the same thing at Christmas (since we were closed Christmas Day) and for New Year's.

Good luck seeing any wal mart and target workers getting spare pies and flowers... ...and your store was nice enough to close early for the evening, and still gave pies and flowers.

Anti Federalist

11-13-2012, 05:55 PM

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 05:55 PM

And if you are someone trying to feed your family on thanksgiving, or get head on thanksgiving, and people are insisting you go to work, then yeah, they are bitches - controlling hypocritical bitches who themselves are feeding their own families to a thanksgiving dinner, and getting head.

We seem to be at an impasse, don't we?

So is it money and prostitution, or family and prostitution.

I'll go ahead and side with those who want time with their families.
I know it's terrible. And I don't even hold Thanksgiving sacred... ...but my family does, and I attend for their sake.
I know.. I know... I must have some selfish intention for attending thanksgiving, and it is the cranberry salad my mom makes.
And of course, I have some selfish intention for being mad on behalf of workers who hold a holiday sacred that I do not. I am sure you can come up with plenty of selfish and diabolical reasons to project on me.

I think you're missing the point. Jennifer Ann wants to call the shots for others who may want or need the hours.

Jenny-poo wants to control another persons labor or at the very least relinquish what choice another may have concerning their own labor to suit her own wishes.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why this union stuff is only considered a one way street by some folks on the RPF's. If there's a cap on what people have to do, then the cap on what people WANT to do should also be examined.

Happy Thanksgiving!:)

UWDude

11-13-2012, 05:58 PM

I think you're missing the point. Jennifer Ann wants to call the shots for others who may want or need the hours.

Jenny-poo wants to control another persons labor or at the very least relinquish what choice another may have concerning their own labor to suit her own wishes.

No, I understand your point. You missed mine. The Wal-Marts and Targets of this world cannot be run just by the few people that want to work on Thanksgiving, and the shareholders and walton family. So if it is going to be open, that means people are going to have to work on their sacred holiday, and they are going to have to do so, because other people want more money.

See how that works? Your logic runs both ways, hence the impasse.

So then it becomes a question of sacred holiday or money.

I say, sacred holiday. Let the plebes have their pumpkin pie.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 06:03 PM

Boy, I wish that great American, Sam Walton, were with us today. I wonder what he would say about being open on Thanksgiving....

I wonder if he ever felt it was worth the big bucks to make his clerks, who he supposedly held in such high esteem, work on Thanksgiving.

MelissaWV

11-13-2012, 06:06 PM

I just don't understand what planet you all speak of when you talk about people changing jobs all the time.
By the way, if your resume has too many job changes, you don't get hired any more.
And no, everybody who wants thanksgiving off gets it off.

Except the shareholders, of course. I am sure they have wonderful thanksgivings.

Good luck seeing any wal mart and target workers getting spare pies and flowers... ...and your store was nice enough to close early for the evening, and still gave pies and flowers.

So you are saying NO ONE wants to work the holiday, get paid, etc.? There is NO ONE to trade with, and if you request time off at an hourly job you are ALWAYS denied? Or are you assuming all of that?

Yeah getting home at 8pm on Thanksgiving was really a treat. So very early. I loved reheating my portion of the meal! But if I wanted money, I worked.

By the way, I have no trouble getting hired :) That "job hopping" nonsense is older thinking.

I have been a proofreader, a copy editor, a personal lines insurance agent, a cashier, a bagger, a check proofer, a mailroom clerk, a data order provisioning team member, data entry clerk, bilingual international packaging logistics liaison, collections representative, biller, accounts payable clerk, obituary writer, a front-end coordinator, a back-office clerk, a courier, payroll clerk, human resources orientation presenter, fundraiser, and a dozen other things that aren't worth mentioning.

Oddly, I find that most people who complain about their work have never lifted a finger to try to help themselves. If you ask for Thanksgiving off in August, you are likely to find that most procrastinators have not started thinking about it yet. If you cultivate good relationships with your co-workers, you may find that someone is willing to work your Thanksgiving shift (maybe in exchange for you working New Year's Day). And if you find yourself in a menial job with no benefits and a Grinch for a boss who won't consider giving anyone time off, then yes it may be time for a new job.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 06:14 PM

So you are saying NO ONE wants to work the holiday, get paid, etc.? There is NO ONE to trade with, and if you request time off at an hourly job you are ALWAYS denied? Or are you assuming all of that?

Of course I am. And I am doing so so you can bash my position easier. :rolleyes:

((I edited the post a while ago for clarity. Not everybody that wants thanksgiving off will get it.

For more clarity, a grocery store being open until 4 PM on thanksgiving is reasonable. It is a grocery store, and thanksgiving is about food.

Ehh... fuck it.
Fuck thanksgiving.
I have no skin in this game.
Let the plebes be robbed of their silly traditions, if they are too weak to stand up for themselves, they deserve it.
I don't care.

amy31416

11-13-2012, 06:15 PM

That's Christmas working conditions I'd love to have.

It brings a smile to my face recalling that. We sold regular trees and rooted trees. My right arm got stupid muscular because you had to cut off about an inch of the regular tree trunk right before you tied it onto the customer's car. Frasier firs are still my favorite--they're soft, non-pokey and absolutely beautiful. The rooted/balled trees were wayyy too heavy for me, so I had to call in the fellas to get those strapped to a car. Blue spruce, while beautiful, was my least favorite because the needles are so freaking sharp.

Watching the parents with their kids, letting them pick out the tree was awesome. The closer we got to Christmas, the fewer trees we had and I'd tell them about the "Charlie Brown" style Christmas trees, which were actually better than the fancy ones.

Go into work at 6 AM, leave whenever the stuff was done, somewhere between 8PM and 10. Get home, drink cocoa, fall asleep. Do it the next day until Christmas Eve--boss gives us a bonus and a giant fruit basket.

If I would have truly appreciated it at the time, I might have dropped out of college.

dillo

11-13-2012, 06:20 PM

MelissaWV

11-13-2012, 06:27 PM

4pm =/= 8pm

The entire to-do was about opening at 8pm disrupting Thanksgiving dinner. I had to work UNTIL 8pm, which meant there really wasn't much moving around available (other than eating ungodly late?). Frankly, these days it's a late lunch kind of meal, which is optimal.

Oh and the "well it was a grocery store and this is a foodcentric holiday" seems odd, since a lot of WalMarts and Targets now sell groceries.

UWDude

11-13-2012, 06:29 PM

4pm =/= 8pm

Yeah.

I stopped caring.

Fuck thanksgiving.

I stopped liking it the day they told me I had to deliver these huge ass papers, with no extra pay, at 5 in the morning.
Then a year later, they did it to Christmas, and ruined my little 12 year old's Christmas, with a huge stack of special, first Christmas edition, first morning edition papers, and it only took me about 5 times as long to deliver their happy crap that is now dirt in a landfill.

And I cant wait until everyone's happy little Christmases are ruined by their apathy.

Seriously, I've seriously hated Christmas for so long, I'm glad that Americans will finally destroy it, and make it just another day, where everyone has to go to work, because everyone else is going to work. Just like your stupid sacred Sabbaths (Sundays... yeah, real sacred now, huh?). LoL. And even then, you miserable miscreants will be whining about federal workers who get Christmas off, because "that's not the way it is in the private sector, and government should be more like business." :rolleyes: LoL

And I'm dead serious. I stopped liking Christmas decades ago. It's a christian holiday, and I stopped being a Christian decades ago. So I will watch with Joy as you Christians slowly rip away another traditional hold you have on this country selling your souls, while quoting A Christmas Carol and Bible verses, and asking, "what happened to the spirit of Christmas?"

Silly Christians. You sold your souls for a dollar, and then wonder why nobody takes anything you say or do seriously anymore.

And, now that I have thought about the Sunday parallel, (which I know, none of you think Christmas will become as mundane as Sunday.. ...but I bet in the 1920's, the idea that everybody would be working on Sundays was preposterous), it's funny, because I bet there were "free market" (the boss cocking version of free market enthusiast, not the collective bargaining type) enthusiasts, who argued, "well, hurr-durr, if you don't like workins Serndays, then go werk somewhere else" thinking that the few places open on Sundays would not turn to all places open on Sundays in 80 years, and their precious 4th commandment would somehow still be observable by Christians (the majority of whom have no choice, and must break it... I mean... if they want to keep working at most establishments).

All this is just another nail in the christian coffin. So bring it on. Crack that whip, Wal Mart. Make 'em work Thanksgiving! Punish these fools!

LoL

And you all can pat yourselves on the back for being such hard workers. Yippee for you.

TheGrinch

11-13-2012, 06:31 PM

Just looked and 99% of businesses are not open on Thanksgiving or Christmas, and I'm guessing that the ones who can't find employment in 99% of the industries are grateful to have any employment at a decent wage. (or should be if you have don't have a skillset to be hired in one of the 99% of jobs you'll get off for Thanksgiving if that's more important than the wage/opportunity. For me the wage/opportunity is more important and there's nothing wrong with that)

Everyone (except a lucky minority) have to make sacrifices to get where they are in the world, and sometimes that means that your best choice is to work hours you'd prefer not to work. No one sheds a tear for me, nor do I want them to.

(Oh and in answer to your earlier question UW, right now I'm working with a local craft beer and wine retailer, the owner of which I know has worked hard to build the place from the ground-up and make it the premiere retailer for rare beers in GA. His margins are thin enough with a ton of overhead to lose valuable business at time when people like to drink and drink alot. He has given us the perk of being off Thanksgiving day, but I would fully understand if he felt competition to be open like other retailers do).

I guess I jsut have more gratitude towards someone who hired me specifically to do a job when they could have hirewd someone else, to where yes, as long as they don't abuse me or take me forgranted, I'm being hired to do what we agree they need me to.

Plus as Angela said, I've never had a job where I couldn't get off if I asked first well in advance... And in the few instances I have, I can assure you there are people whose jobs are far worse than having to work a thanksgiving until I find something more suitable in the 99% of industries I can have it off in.

bunklocoempire

11-13-2012, 06:32 PM

No, I understand your point. You missed mine. The Wal-Marts and Targets of this world cannot be run just by the few people that want to work on Thanksgiving, and the shareholders and walton family. So if it is going to be open, that means people are going to have to work on their sacred holiday, and they are going to have to do so, because other people want more money.

See how that works? Your logic runs both ways, hence the impasse.

So then it becomes a question of sacred holiday or money.

I say, sacred holiday. Let the plebes have their pumpkin pie.
Got it now I think.

The folks who want/need to work didn't necessarliy want this mess (gigantico Targ-Marts), but it's here -I do understand the suck that is coporate. The folks who hold holidays family time sacred didn't necessarily want this mess (Targ-Marts), but it's here.

Families need to eat, and real families need to love each other as well. How that all gets done will get done by those who love each other no matter what.

I think we can agree that our times are not ideal for families who need to eat and love easily at their leisure.

EDIT: I would also add that there was a trade made -and it wasn't for things that were needed that led us to this mess.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

11-13-2012, 07:29 PM

lol indeed. I learned growing up that child labor is a great american tradition, via that whole mom and pop business thing. I hope to pass that lesson onto my children as well.

I learned that too, but I'd never work my kids like I was worked. Well, maybe "never" isn't the right word. If everyone in a family has to work for survival, then that is how shit goes down. That's where my parents lived... or at least where their teachers (parents and grandparents) lived. I've never lived there and hope not to.

Which they will get through loss of their jobs. Sometimes Unions work. Sometimes they don't. You seem to think that companies HAVE to accept unionization. They don't and even within the government they are not immune. Just ask the PATCO union members that lost their jobs under Reagan.

I once worked at a company that kept the unions out by starting to behave like unions. This was bad for me as a young high performer... but the threat of a union can also make working conditions better. It made the situation worse in my case. I had experience for certain jobs, but was passed because of seniority. There were a lot of other things wrong with that job, but it paid a lot at the time. But when the union attempted to enter, the factory started acting like a union.

I don't care about your anecdote how you baked pies once on a non-holiday. It's not relevant.

There, you happy? I replied.

I think he provided a valuable lesson for some people. I even +repped bunklocoempire for it. You might consider that everything here isn't about you. This can be a conversation instead of a fight.

Me too. Take Chick-fil-A for instance, the fast food restaurant that marinates its chicken with holy water. I've always respected the company for being closed on Sundays, since it's so much different to the modern, 24/7 monstrosity of today.

I've respected that, but damn if I haven't wanted some of their yummy chicken on Sundays.

Seriously, I've seriously hated Christmas for so long, I'm glad that Americans will finally destroy it, and make it just another day, where everyone has to go to work, because everyone else is going to work. Just like your stupid sacred Sabbaths (Sundays... yeah, real sacred now, huh?). LoL. And even then, you miserable miscreants will be whining about federal workers who get Christmas off, because "that's not the way it is in the private sector, and government should be more like business." :rolleyes: LoL

And I'm dead serious. I stopped liking Christmas decades ago. It's a christian holiday, and I stopped being a Christian decades ago. So I will watch with Joy as you Christians slowly rip away another traditional hold you have on this country selling your souls, while quoting A Christmas Carol and Bible verses, and asking, "what happened to the spirit of Christmas?"

Your hatred is eating you. I don't know what is going on with you right now, but I hope it gets better and I'm pretty sure you'll be ok. I mean that. I'm not a big christmas fan, either. Or any holiday. I won't even tell people when my birthday is if I can avoid it. But people pick when they work and if you feel like you can't do that, then you are giving up control of yourself. If you feel like you can't work your way out of it, then you are giving up hope. Both of those will lead to more unhappiness than working on any particular holiday. I get the point that if others give those things up, it affects you. But it seems this is some sort of giant frustration point for you and I hope you get past it. There are a lot of worse things going on right now.

HOLLYWOOD

11-13-2012, 07:52 PM

I like Christmas in July Sales... those seem to be the best deals.

I bought some killer XMAS LED lights in July, that will put Clark Griswald's house to shame.

puppetmaster

11-13-2012, 07:59 PM

Casino workers have worked holidays forever......not then end of the world.

Occam's Banana

11-13-2012, 08:36 PM

My employer will be open for business on Thanksgiving but working is purely voluntary (and for a nice pay in my case- I won't mind working since I have no family around and will get a huge check). Also open Christmas Day- I refuse to work that one. We used to be closed down then.

Way back when, I used to work for a large regional supermarket chain. Volunteers were always asked for when holiday shifts needed filling. There was never any problem.

musicmax

11-13-2012, 08:40 PM

I think it's disgusting. What a slap in the face to their workers.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/thanksgiving-shouldnt-black-thursday-target-215753491.html

Blame the shoppers too.

Occam's Banana

11-13-2012, 09:04 PM

Wow, that's a messed up mom and pop, because where I live, and when I lived in Seattle, Safeway and QFC, adn every other main chain closed before noon on thanksgiving and did not open until the 6 AM the next day.

Oh, yeah, that's right, those are UNION jobs. Damn unions demanding dignity!

The supermarket chain (Schnucks) I worked for (as mentioned in my earlier post) did *exactly* the same thing. They were not unionized. (And I would have sought a job elsewhere if they had been.)

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

11-13-2012, 09:09 PM

The supermarket chain (Schnucks) I worked for...

lol. Why do these places choose to overcome such dumb names?

In FL, there is a chain called Badcocks. Really, who wants to walk in that store? What are you buying in there? Or what makes you want to walk in there to see what they are selling?? lol

Occam's Banana

11-13-2012, 09:21 PM

I'm generally not a fan of unions and haven't been a member of one (unless the Republican party counts, at least on a philosophical level?), but unions would certainly exist in a free market. I think the problem with unions, as with anything else, is when government gets involved. I don't have a problem with a group of people asking for a redress of grievances with their employer. I do have an axe to grind with modern unions, especially when government workers are unionized, and amongst those, especially police unions.

RPFs sez: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Philhelm again."

lol. Why do these places choose to overcome such dumb names?

In FL, there is a chain called Badcocks. Really, who wants to walk in that store? What are you buying in there? Or what makes you want to walk in there to see what they are selling?? lol

:eek::D

UWDude

11-13-2012, 10:45 PM

I think he provided a valuable lesson for some people. I even +repped bunklocoempire for it. You might consider that everything here isn't about you. This can be a conversation instead of a fight.

No, it was about me, because he asked me twice why I didn't respond to his post. So yes, it was about me.

Your hatred is eating you. I don't know what is going on with you right now, but I hope it gets better and I'm pretty sure you'll be ok. I mean that. I'm not a big christmas fan, either. Or any holiday. I won't even tell people when my birthday is if I can avoid it. But people pick when they work and if you feel like you can't do that, then you are giving up control of yourself. If you feel like you can't work your way out of it, then you are giving up hope. Both of those will lead to more unhappiness than working on any particular holiday. I get the point that if others give those things up, it affects you. But it seems this is some sort of giant frustration point for you and I hope you get past it. There are a lot of worse things going on right now.

No, I started out pretty early stating I had no stake in this. These holidays mean nothing to me, and haven't for a long time, and I personally get these holidays off.

Why must people always I assume if I am upset about something, it's because I am personally affected? Can't I care about other people? Can't I feel for people who love their holidays that I personally don't care about?

I just feel for the poor Target worker who broke down into tears when she found she couldn't get thanksgiving off this year. And I bet there were ten of thousands of them! No she can't just "go get another job." That's a cop-out peddled as truth, but a freaking lie, because in the real world it just does not work that way for most people. Not everybody can be perfect little libertarian workers who bounce from job to job always looking for that free-market edge. It just doesn't work that way for most people. Most people can't be highly intelligent and well educated people who know the nuances of the labor market. A lot of people are naturally dumb. And just because they are dumb, doesn't mean they deserve to have what is precious taken away from them.

And then, when some of these poor folks try to stand up for themselves, there is hatred from many people here, for some odd reason. Why? Oh, yes, because people here don't feel Wal-Mart or Target workers are entitled to anything. Not even their holy days any more. Once you work for someone, you should be forced to do whatever your boss says. A boss is just a boss. They aren't your owner. And if they are going to try and take something precious to you... ...you should stand up! Not just for yourself, but for everyone else too scared to stand up for themselves.

A bunch of heartless bastards, really.
And you all are just destroying yourselves.

Hatred? No, it is you all who hate your fellow man.

And selfish consumerism, which is the cause of this, is the worst thing happening to America right now. It is what is driving every other stupid thing that is happening. There is nothing sacred any more.

You people talk about family values and shit, but when it comes time to stand up, and defend any kind of family value, like a holiday tradition, you all obviously really don't care. It's just money, money, money, and "Shut up and be happy you have a job, slave!"

jclay2

11-13-2012, 11:27 PM

bunklocoempire

11-14-2012, 03:42 AM

I didn't take the time to read the entire thread, but the comments that state "you are not forced if your getting paid to work" miss the point. The point is our society is being completely overrun by mass consumption. So much so to the point where consuming useless crap is more important than enjoying time with your family and community at home. Wake up people and realize that there are more important things in life then going bankrupt buying garbage you will never use.
The "buying garbage you will never use" isn't what Jennifer Ann or Casey St. Clair (article) is petitioning against.

If Jennifer Ann and Casey did that they might be out of a job -and then I suppose we'd get another petition from them.:p;)

EDIT:
there are more important things in life then going bankrupt buying garbage you will never use.
I agree, but it is not my place to force others to abide by my wishes.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 04:28 AM

I agree, but it is not my place to force others to abide by my wishes.

Finish this sentence, please:

It's not force when an employer tells their employee to do something they don't want to do, but it is force when employees tell other employees not to do something they want to do because...

bunklocoempire

11-14-2012, 04:57 AM

Finish this sentence, please:

It's not force when an employer tells their employee to do something, but it is force when employees tell other employees not to do something because...

...because it's not my place to limit a fellow employee's ambitions with our mutual employer just because I can't, or don't want to equal, or exceed, my co-workers ambitions. And of course because I don't own the company.

Now let's try this.

Finish this sentence, please:

My fellow employees should not exceed my own ambitions regarding our mutual employer because...

UWDude

11-14-2012, 05:01 AM

...because it's not my place to limit a fellow employee's ambitions with our mutual employer just because I can't, or don't want to equal, or exceed, my co-workers ambitions. And of course because I don't own the company.

I edited this like 20 minutes ago. Did it really take you that long to come up with that?

Finish this sentence, please:

My fellow employees should not exceed my own ambitions regarding our mutual employer because...

Because fuck their brown nosing bullshit, the rest of us want our thanksgiving. We want livable wages. We want dignity, lunch breaks, a 40 hour work week, and extra pay for anything above that. We want safe working conditions. Just because some brown nosing dipshit thinks working without safety equipment is going to get them a promotion, doesn't mean the rest of us have to be retarded too. Put our lives, dignity, or traditions on the line so some guy who we never even see can get an extra $100 a week? Hell no. A company takes more than an owner to succeed.

Fuck co-workers who are willing to lick the shit off their bosses' ass for a raise. Those people are a detriment to the workforce and society. Those people deserve nothing. They are the worst of slaves.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 05:45 AM

Fuck co-workers who are willing to lick the shit off their bosses' ass for a raise. Those people are a detriment to the workforce and society. Those people deserve nothing. They are the worst of slaves.

Fuck people without enough intestinal fortitude to get off their asses and work for themselves.

Don't like terms of employment, don't work there.....Simple.

Occam's Banana

11-14-2012, 05:46 AM

Because fuck their brown nosing bullshit, the rest of us want our thanksgiving. We want livable wages. We want dignity, lunch breaks, a 40 hour work week, and extra pay for anything above that. We want safe working conditions. Just because some brown nosing dipshit thinks working without safety equipment is going to get them a promotion, doesn't mean the rest of us have to be retarded too. Put our lives, dignity, or traditions on the line so some guy who we never even see can get an extra $100 a week? Hell no. A company takes more than an owner to succeed.

Fuck co-workers who are willing to lick the shit off their bosses' ass for a raise. Those people are a detriment to the workforce and society. Those people deserve nothing. They are the worst of slaves.

Congratulations. That fetidly septic little chunk of hate-addled spittle-spewing just destroyed any shred of respect I might have had for you or your position. Welcome to my ignore list.

phill4paul

11-14-2012, 05:48 AM

bunklocoempire

11-14-2012, 05:51 AM

I edited this like 20 minutes ago. Did it really take you that long to come up with that?

Because fuck their brown nosing bullshit, the rest of us want our thanksgiving.

Fuck co-workers who are willing to lick the shit off their bosses ass for a raise. Those people are a detriment to the workforce and society. Those people deserve nothing. They are the worst of slaves.

505 site error whatever that is.

I'm not a detriment to the workforce or society. I've been an employee and to a lesser extent an employer -and as such I've got my unique experiences that differ from your own. My "brown nosing bullshit" enabled me to collect monies to help start my own business and keep my father (delivery guy) in a small amount of cash for six years. My father will now enjoy 100% of my business as I turn it over to him -for as long as he needs it/wants it.

This Thanksgiving my wife and myself will be working our asses off with our own businesses -we're pushing our own T-day celebration back to the 30th/31st. Have I mentioned wifey and I have taken a hit to make payroll for her employees? We're looking at around 6 months of major belt tightening to keep four full-time employees paid and two others with part time/hourly work. I will be working for my wife/her company for free.

Her employees are worth it -excellent, drama-free, hardworking people. Employees cost employers about twice as much as evrybody thinks they cost.

Her employees have Thanksgiving off, and then Christmas and Easter, The 4th. Paid holidays. Paid vacations. They are welcome to work those days if they want to.

Done with you on this thread UW.

Occam's Banana

11-14-2012, 05:52 AM

I think the libtard is losing it.

That's what happens when a raging sense of self-righteous entitlement confronts the sort of question bunkloco asked.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 05:55 AM

Don't like terms of employment, don't work there.....Simple.

Yeah, so simple... ..to the simple minded.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 05:57 AM

Yeah, so simple... ..to the simple minded.

Thanks for qualifying that Ace...

UWDude

11-14-2012, 05:58 AM

Her employees have Thanksgiving off, and then Christmas and Easter, The 4th. Paid holidays. Paid vacations. They are welcome to work those days if they want to.

Paid holidays and vacations for your employees. But god damn those employees at target and Wal-Mart. How dare they suggest they should get *un-paid* Thanksgiving off.

Back to work, slaves!

And why the hell are you two working on thanksgiving? Why don't you do what Wal Mart and Target owners are doing...

...tell your employees to go to work, so you can enjoy your thanksgiving? As a matter of fact, why don't you two stop paying vacation pay as well? It is morally just for Wal Mart and Target to do so, so why don't you two do it?

UWDude

11-14-2012, 05:58 AM

Thanks for qualifying that Ace...

You're welcome.

Occam's Banana

11-14-2012, 06:02 AM

505 site error whatever that is.

I've noticed that kind thing happens a lot around 4:45 - 5:00 AM (CST). Don't know what's up with that.

I'm not a detriment to the workforce or society. I've been an employee and to a lesser extent an employer -and as such I've got my unique experiences that differ from your own. My "brown nosing bullshit" enabled me to collect monies to help start my own business and keep my father (delivery guy) in a small amount of cash for six years. My father will now enjoy 100% of my business as I turn it over to him -for as long as he needs it/wants it.

This Thanksgiving my wife and myself will be working our asses off with our own businesses -we're pushing our own T-day celebration back to the 30th/31st. Have I mentioned wifey and I have taken a hit to make payroll for her employees? We're looking at around 6 months of major belt tightening to keep four full-time employees paid and two others with part time/hourly work. I will be working for my wife/her company for free.

Her employees are worth it -excellent, drama-free, hardworking people. Employees cost employers about twice as much as evrybody thinks they cost.

Her employees have Thanksgiving off, and then Christmas and Easter, The 4th. Paid holidays. Paid vacations. They are welcome to work those days if they want to.

Done with you on this thread UW.

+rep for (1) general principle, (2) specific content and (3) ability to deal civilly with obnoxious pricks

UWDude

11-14-2012, 06:11 AM

My "brown nosing bullshit"

Ahh.. so you are one of those people that worked off the clock to make yourself look better right?
One of those who always argued that safety equipment was unnecessary and for sissies, right? Or maybe you just wouldn't use it, because properly equipping it would hurt your output.
One of those, who if you worked over 40 hours, you would just cut the extra hours off your pay stub, or clock out, so that the company would not have to pay you overtime.
And then, when performance reviews would come up, the managers would look around at your co-workers, and tell them, "Once again, bunklocoempire has exceeded everyone else by 10%" And you would beam with pride, knowing you just cheated your way to favor.
Or one of those idiots who always worked through his lunch break to make himself look good come review time.

Yeah, those kind of people are TRASH, and I despise them.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 06:13 AM

That's what happens when a raging sense of self-righteous entitlement confronts the sort of question bunkloco asked.

Workers are entitled to rights. Workers are entitled to dignity and safety. If they put their sweat and labor into a company, they deserve respect. Yes, they are entitled. Sorry, they are not slaves, like so many neo-confederates wish.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 06:25 AM

phill4paul

11-14-2012, 06:27 AM

Workers are entitled to rights. Workers are entitled to dignity and safety. If they put their sweat and labor into a company, they deserve respect. Yes, they are entitled. Sorry, they are not slaves, like so many neo-confederates wish.

Oh, lawd. Now the libtard plays the racist card. LOL.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 06:30 AM

Oh, lawd. Now the libtard plays the racist card. LOL.

It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with people thinking that if you own a company, you own the employees as well.

phill4paul

11-14-2012, 06:33 AM

It has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with people thinking that if you own a company, you own the employees as well.

I am pretty sure that you are not allowed to hold employees at gunpoint in captivity.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 06:33 AM

I didn't like working for other people so I work for myself, over the years I've "hired" help strictly paid on what they put out the door.

I'm working by myself again, seems the folks I find want paid for more than they produce.

And what exactly do you produce UWDude?

Not going to answer your question Tod. Unlike most posters on this thread, I'm not here to brag about what an awesome, outstanding member of society I am. And how if everyone was just like me, my version of free-market economics, where the owner makes all the rules, and workers only job is to say "yes sir", would work. Plus what I do is fairly unique, Seattle and worldwide.

But please Tod, please tell us how you are an awesome person, and everybody else that works at lowly places like Wal-Mart and Target are just lazy, ungrateful, self-entitled bums.

An.. lol. You cant get an employee to work for you? I wonder why. LoL
Good luck making your millions without any workers.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 06:34 AM

I am pretty sure that you are not allowed to hold employees at gunpoint in captivity.

Yes, but telling coworkers they cant come to work on Thanksgiving because the majority want to spend time with their families, is "force", according to the anti-unionists.

Telling someone if they don't give up thanksgiving, and come work for you, they are fired... ...is "not force", according to the anti-unionist.

Yes, it is amazing how the definition of force always seems to fit so nicely into your ideological fantasies, isn't it?

It's kind of like how they keep comparing corporations where the owners don't even live in the same state as the people they are forcing to work thanksgiving, is akin to their little bakery or customized cell-phone cover business.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 06:46 AM

Not going to answer your question Tod. Unlike most posters on this thread, I'm not here to brag about what an awesome, outstanding member of society I am. Plus what I do is fairly unique, Seattle and worldwide.

But please Tod, please tell us how you are an awesome person, and everybody else that works at lowly places like Wal-Mart and Target are just lazy, ungrateful, self-entitled bums.

An.. lol. You cant get an employee to work for you? I wonder why. LoL
Good luck making your millions without any workers.

Carpenters generally never make millions, I knew that going in. It's never been a goal of mine to be rich, I'm happy to produce a quality product for people who are happy to pay for it.

So what was it you make?

Oh... you're not going to say...

Don't blame your employer for your inability to produce...

Maybe you'd like me to mail you a check just because you "deserve" it?

I mean why not eh?, the government pays unproductive people every day with tax dollars, let's cut out the middle man and see how many here will cut you a check.......You deserve it!

Folks who take jobs at box-stores generally look at them as stepping stones and understand that it's not desirable employment. Heck many on this board would be loath to work with me, it's hard, dirty work...

UWDude

11-14-2012, 06:55 AM

Maybe you'd like me to mail you a check just because you "deserve" it?

Oh, yeah, uh huh. Good one, Tod!
(wtf?)

I mean why not eh?, the government pays unproductive people every day with tax dollars, let's cut out the middle man and see how many here will cut you a check.......You deserve it!

I don't work for the government, if that is what you are trying to ask.

Heck many on this board would be loath to work with me, it's hard, dirty work...

Yeah, I would loathe to work with you, but not because I'm afraid of hard, dirty work. (I've done PLENTY of that) It's your attitude.

And I know your response. Yeah, you wouldn't hire me.

So what. I don't care that some guy thinks because he has employees, suddenly he is just like Wal-Mart and Target, and shares in their struggles of keeping those uppity workers from "whining" about working on Thanksgiving. And if Wal Mart and Target were to cave into their "whining", well then, he would lose all property rights somehow, and the worldwide communist revolution would start, ushering in the great new rule of the proletariat.

NAY! NAY, I SAY! It must not happen! Do not give those workers their Thanksgiving off! No Matter the cost, Wal-Mart and Target! Capitalism itself would be ruined if you did!!! Stand your ground! You are the last bastion of freedom! FREEDOMMM!!! Your defeat would be the defeat of all business owners worldwide!

LoL

tod evans

11-14-2012, 07:13 AM

NAY! NAY, I SAY! It must not happen! Do not give those workers their Thanksgiving off! No Matter the cost, Wal-Mart and Target! Capitalism itself would be ruined if you did!!! Stand your ground! You are the last bastion of freedom! FREEDOMMM!!! Your defeat would be the defeat of all business owners worldwide!

LoL

Ever hear of SSRI's?

As bad as they are it's possible they could help...

As far as "hiring" anyone.......I got tired of training my competition...As I get older it's a lot more difficult to keep up with the young carpenters so I've got to rely on skill and knowledge....

My "attitude" is that I owe no man...Apparently that doesn't sit well with you, that's why I offered to see how many would voluntarily send you a check.

I'd chip in a couple of bucks if you'll prove it goes either to knowledge or medication..

Still wondering what it is you make? (Other than noise)

69360

11-14-2012, 07:18 AM

Employment is at will in this country unless you have a contract. If you don't have a contract specifying holidays off there is nothing to discuss.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 07:21 AM

Ever hear of SSRI's?

As bad as they are it's possible they could help...

Oh man! Comic gold! And you say you are in carpentry? You really should answer the call to do stand up!
Answer the call of destiny, Tod!

As far as "hiring" anyone.......I got tired of training my competition...As I get older it's a lot more difficult to keep up with the young carpenters so I've got to rely on skill and knowledge....

Hey, you originally said they apparently wanted more than they were worth, now you are saying they actually were worth more than you. Which is it?

My "attitude" is that I owe no man...Apparently that doesn't sit well with you, that's why I offered to see how many would voluntarily send you a check.

What's with the gibberish?

I'd chip in a couple of bucks if you'll prove it goes either to knowledge or medication..

Tod! Please! really.. comic gold, my friend!

Still wondering what it is you make? (Other than noise)

metal things. three dimensional things.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 07:22 AM

Employment is at will in this country unless you have a contract. If you don't have a contract specifying holidays off there is nothing to discuss.
If they learn to stand up for themselves, they could change that contract, and save Thanksgiving from the consumerist hoardes of doom and their corporocrat masters!

Of course, changing contracts is anti-free market, apparently. Hrmm.

specsaregood

11-14-2012, 07:24 AM

Still wondering what it is you make? (Other than noise)

yesterday, I almost asked if he had ever even had a fulltime job. But then I found something useful to do with my time instead.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 07:25 AM

metal things. three dimensional things.

So you actually produce a tangible item....I'm impressed, really!

Now next question; Are you self employed?

UWDude

11-14-2012, 07:28 AM

So you actually produce a tangible item....I'm impressed, really!

Now next question; Are you self employed?

Yes and no. To both of your questions. I mean yes to tangible items, but not always.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 07:36 AM

Here we go, once again, you shmucks are not going to be able to figure out why I would be upset about something that really has no bearing on my own personal self-interests. Why I would be so upset about a holiday I don't even care about, and industry I haven't worked for in fifteen years?

This tunnel vision, I hypothesize, comes from your basic philosophy that nobody ever does anything, unless it is out of self-interest. It holds for about 95% of the population, but as always, human beings can be surprising.

69360

11-14-2012, 07:38 AM

If they learn to stand up for themselves, they could change that contract, and save Thanksgiving from the consumerist hoardes of doom and their corporocrat masters!

Of course, changing contracts is anti-free market, apparently. Hrmm.

That any 2 people can enter into any contract that is mutually agreeable is a free market principle. Whining that government should enforce holidays off is not.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 07:39 AM

And look at Target and Wal-Mart's ads.

They are all about family, holidays, and happy, happy workers.
What utter bullshit.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 07:41 AM

That any 2 people can enter into any contract that is mutually agreeable is a free market principle. Whining that government should enforce holidays off is not.

I've never said anything about the government. I said unions.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 07:44 AM

Whoa Nelly,

Here we go with "shmucks" and tunnel vision...

Where do you get the idea that any business should provide more to an employee than what is spelled out in their contractual agreement with said employee?

Doesn't matter if "business" is Mom-n-Pop or a fortune 500 company...

Next if an employee contracts to provide labor under a contractual agreement why should the business be penalized if the employee breaks the contract, or expects more than is agreed on?

Jingles

11-14-2012, 07:45 AM

I actually request to work on holidays. It get's me out of family obligations. Although, mine are more complicated than most. Like on Thanksgiving I have to go to 3 separate thanksgiving dinners and one requires having to go to a completely other state.

But then again I've always liked Christmas because you have like triple Christmas and presents.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 07:47 AM

And look at Target and Wal-Mart's ads.

They are all about family, holidays, and happy, happy workers.
What utter bullshit.

Is this the real issue?

You don't like leading advertisement?

How in the hell did you sit through the political debates without having a stroke?

UWDude

11-14-2012, 07:51 AM

Is this the real issue?

You don't like leading advertisement?

How in the hell did you sit through the political debates without having a stroke?

I don't watch the debates. I haven't watched a debate since 2004. I don't watch SoTU speeches either. Gave those up about the same time.

Where do you get the idea that any business should provide more to an employee than what is spelled out in their contractual agreement with said employee?

Doesn't matter if "business" is Mom-n-Pop or a fortune 500 company...

Next if an employee contracts to provide labor under a contractual agreement why should the business be penalized if the employee breaks the contract, or expects more than is agreed on?

Why can't laborer's change the contract? And exactly what is this contract anyways? when I worked at places like this, there was very little fine print, IIRC. (It was a long time ago) Why can't the laborers band together and say "we want a change in the contract! You're not going to take our thanksgiving away!"

Once you sign an employment contract, you are bound for life to abide by the terms?

What's this talk about penalization? The only penalization would be when Wal-Mart or Target decides to ignore their workers complaints, and they get a union in their face.

This is all dreaming of course. People at Wal-Mart and Target will never unionize or stand up for themselves.

Whoa Nelly,
Here we go with "shmucks" and tunnel vision...

why are you asking me about my personal life, then? I know this game. I provide details of personal life, you either use them to attack me, or keep asking questions until you can find your chink, and then stab. Been on the internet for a long time, dude.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 08:10 AM

UWDude

11-14-2012, 09:05 AM

Just trying to understand your crusade for box-store employees to be off holidays, figured with your zeal maybe there was some sort of connection..

Honestly if the community didn't want stores open on holidays then they wouldn't patronize them, if the community doesn't like a stores business practices then they won't patronize them.

Instead of blaming the store for responding to the community try addressing the community that chooses this business model...

No, I'm going to address the community that hates people that try to stand up for the entitlement to spend thanksgiving with their families. And yes, they are entitled to it, especially if they stand up for all workers of the United States who want to keep Thanksgiving as a day that nobody but the most essential of personnel will work. But they are also entitled to it because they work hard, for little pay, and their reason for existence is not to serve Target shareholders, or commercial zombies too rude to understand they are ruining somebody's holiday, but to love their families and neighbors.

This particular community has a serious problem with message, and is always asking themselves why nobody ever listens to their message. Well, I'm letting this particular community know why. Because this community is full of heartless bastards that think the free market is only there for the owners of companies. Good luck selling that crap in the free market of ideas.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 09:10 AM

jclay2

11-14-2012, 09:11 AM

tod evans

11-14-2012, 09:15 AM

Most of the blame lies with the people and culture. However, it also lies with greedy ceo's who lack any morals. There is no reason for big box stores to be open all Thanksgiving Night. Now that doesn't mean I am in favor of forcing them to change, I just think it shows a lack of integrity and care for one's employees and fellow people in your community.

What's the answer?

I'll never vote for more legislation and the only way I know to force a company to change policy is to not pay them....

specsaregood

11-14-2012, 09:20 AM

There is no reason for big box stores to be open all Thanksgiving Night.

Really? It seems to make sense since the majority of their customers will be off of work and available to shop if they so choose. But perhaps I'm just a greedy CEO type.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 09:23 AM

I do my part, I haven't ever, in 52 years, given any store one nickle on Thanksgiving day or even the day after...

UWDude

11-14-2012, 09:32 AM

So instead you address this community and try to push "workers rights"......

Doesn't make sense to me but like you said......"It's the internet."

Wasn't the communist party all about "workers rights"?

Is there something wrong with being for worker's rights? Is there no place for the worker in capitalism? Is the power of collective bargaining only for the owners, who collectively garner power through capitalization via stock sales?

UWDude

11-14-2012, 09:34 AM

It seems to make sense since the majority of their customers will be off of work and available to shop if they so choose.

Yes. And Indian graveyards are just plots of prime land waiting to be developed. Great Mountains are better off blasted into cyanide leech gold mines.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 09:40 AM

Is there something wrong with being for worker's rights? Is there no place for the worker in capitalism? Is the power of collective bargaining only for the owners, who collectively garner power through capitalization via stock sales?

Advocating for the "greater-good" is noble but look at history..

Somebody needs to decide what the greater good is and somebody needs to enforce the edicts.

Our country is fraught with "greater-good" legislation that's eating us out of house and home right now..

Much better to do as RP suggests and work on two fronts;

1) Restrain government
2) Restore morality

UWDude

11-14-2012, 09:47 AM

Advocating for the "greater-good" is noble but look at history..

Somebody needs to decide what the greater good is and somebody needs to enforce the edicts.

Our country is fraught with "greater-good" legislation that's eating us out of house and home right now..

Much better to do as RP suggests and work on two fronts;

1) Restrain government
2) Restore morality

That's interesting and all. But you did not answer the question.
Is there something wrong with being for worker's rights?

Restore morality?
By shrugging your shoulders when a company says "fuck thanksgiving, consumerism rules"? And then getting mad at the workers who say, "we want our thanksgiving!'?

So, exactly, how in the end, is your position more about restraining government and restoring morality than mine? At least mine has a semblance of morality.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 09:52 AM

That's interesting and all. But you did not answer the question.
Is there something wrong with being for worker's rights?

Restore morality?
By shrugging your shoulders when a company says "fuck thanksgiving, consumerism rules"? And then getting mad at the workers who say, "we want our thanksgiving!'

So, exactly, how in the end, is your position more about restraining government and restoring morality than mine? At least mine has a semblance of morality.

You seem to be wanting to argue..

There is nothing wrong with being for workers "rights"............What exactly are those "rights"? Who decides and who enforces?

You want workers to be off T-day......Others the winter or summer solstice, and yet others on Independence day....

Should they all be heard?

Who decides?

What's the penalty for non-compliance?

What if "workers" voluntarily don't comply?

TheGrinch

11-14-2012, 09:58 AM

You seem to be wanting to argue..

There is nothing wrong with being for workers "rights"............What exactly are those "rights"? Who decides and who enforces?

You want workers to be off T-day......Others the winter or summer solstice, and yet others on Independence day....

Should they all be heard?

Who decides?

What's the penalty for non-compliance?

What if "workers" voluntarily don't comply?

I would like off for the SEC championship, even though I agreed to work weekends when I was hired, and haven't asked with any notice.

UW, can this be your first quest to fight for this worker's rights? To let my scummy boss know that he can't treat workers he's paying a decent wage as workers?

Seriously, Thanksgiving is important to some, for others it's summer vacation, for me it's football. So does everyone jsut get off when they went, with no regard of if the company needs them then?

You really must think that people hire people jsut to be charitable. They don't. You're hired to do the job you signed on for.

jbauer

11-14-2012, 09:58 AM

TheGrinch

11-14-2012, 10:02 AM

I'm sure this has been said several times in the 22 prior pages but the easiest way to stop this is to not shop on Thanksgiving. Problem solved.

Not to mention most of the black friday deals can be had over the internet from the comfort of your own home.

It has, but here we are turning a day that's turned into a big sale competition into a human rights issue...

Where is UW's tear for all the poor football players, refs, commentators and game crews that have to work thanksgiving? The world does not jsut stop for everyone on holidays. Some people have shit to do.

jllundqu

11-14-2012, 10:04 AM

belian78

11-14-2012, 10:05 AM

I asked the question to make the point.

Nameless, faceless corporations will tell their little slaves to do anything, because they don't have to treat them like human beings. They treat them like commodities.

And little sycophants like you like it that way, and your "real narrow definition" of free markets like it that way. Well, fine, sit in your shit and be happy with it. Work all the holidays you can and enjoy your money.

Just do us a favor and STFU when Wal-Mart workers unionize and demand their thanksgivings back.
(which I know you won't, but you know... whatever)

LoL
Personal insults are against ToS here, so stop calling people names, especially when they've said they agree with you on a personal level. Insults and name calling shows you've lost your argument.

specsaregood

11-14-2012, 10:13 AM

Personal insults are against ToS here, so stop calling people names, especially when they've said they agree with you on a personal level. Insults and name calling shows you've lost your argument.

I actually enjoy the attempts at insult; they let me know its time to stop responding.

tod evans

11-14-2012, 10:14 AM

I would like off for the SEC championship, even though I agreed to work weekends when I was hired, and haven't asked with any notice.

And I'd like to have off when the ol' lady's in a good mood, work when she's bitchy...

Think some customer would be cool with that?

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:19 AM

Personal insults are against ToS here, so stop calling people names, especially when they've said they agree with you on a personal level. Insults and name calling shows you've lost your argument.

LoL, coming from the man that called me a unionized zombie fuck. OK dude.

jbauer

11-14-2012, 10:21 AM

It has, but here we are turning a day that's turned into a big sale competition into a human rights issue...

Where is UW's tear for all the poor football players, refs, commentators and game crews that have to work thanksgiving? The world does not jsut stop for everyone on holidays. Some people have shit to do.

I would say that if working on a holiday is a legitmate humans right issue that the world is in a far better place then what I see with my own eyes.

jllundqu

11-14-2012, 10:21 AM

LoL, coming from the man that called me a unionized zombie fuck. OK dude.

And How!

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:22 AM

I'm sure this has been said several times in the 22 prior pages but the easiest way to stop this is to not shop on Thanksgiving. Problem solved.

No, the problem is not solved. Because everybody is a not a conscious, caring libertarian like you.
Most people are consumerist zombies. And just because you stay away on thanksgiving, does not mean the commercialized drones will.

Whether you like it or not, the only answer is unionization.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:23 AM

Get over it... I work in a job that often requires me to work nights, weekends, holidays, etc. It's a great job and about a thousand other people fought me for it and would gladly work those hours if I chose to quit.

It's called the free marketplace.

But collective bargaining is not part of the free market place... cuz.. cuz... cuz... ya hate unions, yah, that's a good reason!

Wait no, collective bargaining is good, if it is done on behalf of the shareholders, who pool all their money to amass power, but not the workers... because... cuz... I hates unions!!

And it's cool you have a great job and all, but Wal Mart and Target isn't exactly... a "great job"

tod evans

11-14-2012, 10:27 AM

.
Whether you like it or not, the only answer is unionization.

Whoa Nellie yet again..

How do you intend to implement unions in non-union work places?

Forced unions?

Sure that'll work.......

Think the automated check-out lines are cool now, just try unionized retail..

No human interaction at all.........And it could be coming sooner than later as it is.

But that's cool everybody will be off on T-day.......And the government can buy them a turkey with tax dollars..

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:29 AM

It has, but here we are turning a day that's turned into a big sale competition into a human rights issue...

Why do you trolls always do this?
It's just about decency. It's not necessarily a human right, its just about dignity and morality.
But you always like to set up your little straw men to make yourselves feel right about your wrong positions.

Where is UW's tear for all the poor football players, refs, commentators and game crews that have to work thanksgiving? The world does not jsut stop for everyone on holidays. Some people have shit to do.

I don't care about them. Should I? But Target and Wal-Mart's decisions effect millions of workers.

I would like off for the SEC championship, even though I agreed to work weekends when I was hired, and haven't asked with any notice.

Target workers were told six days ago that they would have to work thanksgiving. That gave many of them enough time to cancel their holiday plans.

UW, can this be your first quest to fight for this worker's rights? To let my scummy boss know that he can't treat workers he's paying a decent wage as workers?

If you really want it off, go ahead and ask for it off.

Seriously, Thanksgiving is important to some, for others it's summer vacation, for me it's football. So does everyone jsut get off when they went, with no regard of if the company needs them then?

To say it is important to some is an understatement. Your glib attempts at cheapening the heartbreak this is causing for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people does not amuse me.

You really must think that people hire people jsut to be charitable. They don't. You're hired to do the job you signed on for.

Oh I must huh? Just because I support people who are standing up for themselves?

tod evans

11-14-2012, 10:31 AM

I don't care about them. Should I? But Target and Wal-Mart's decisions effect millions of workers.

So only Target and Wally World should have forced unionization?

Or should this include other retail stores too?

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:34 AM

Whoa Nellie yet again..

How do you intend to implement unions in non-union work places?

Forced unions?

Sure that'll work.......

Think the automated check-out lines are cool now, just try unionized retail..

No human interaction at all.........And it could be coming sooner than later as it is.

But that's cool everybody will be off on T-day.......And the government can buy them a turkey with tax dollars..

here comes that word "force" again that has a hundred different definitions, each picked at your leisure to make your point.

So only Target and Wally World should have forced unionization?

Or should this include other retail stores too?

Ope, and he does it again. Force force force. UWDude is advocating force of some sort. Force force force. Violence violence. Murder murder murder. UWDude is advocating murder for thanksgiving day.

TheGrinch

11-14-2012, 10:36 AM

Why do you trolls always do this?
It's just about decency. It's not necessarily a human right, its just about dignity and morality.
But you always like to set up your little straw men to make yourselves feel right about your wrong positions.

I don't care about them. Should I? But Target and Wal-Mart's decisions effect millions of workers.

Different people have different views of dignity and morality. For me, it's moral and dignified to work hours I don't want to work, in fact I'm on my second unpaid internship and working weekends and during part of my Thanksgiving break to pay bills, so that I can gain some marketable skills and hopefully advance to better work

I was barely employed for over 2 years, so don't tell me what's dignified and moral for me to work to put food on the table when I have kids. It is only 1% of jobs that work Thanksgiving, and I can assure that in those 1% of industries there will be plenty who value the hours over not having them at all. I know I do.

It's a tough world out there, no matter what job you have, but no one sheds a tear for my struggles, as I work to try to put myself in a better position than to have to work all the damn time for peanuts. So don't talk to me about strawmans as you've spent this entire thread creating a strawman over a retail company being open on the holidays, just like the retail store I work at is (not on Thanksgiving, but we don't get a break for travel unless you request off liek I did). It's part of the job.

jllundqu

11-14-2012, 10:39 AM

But collective bargaining is not part of the free market place... cuz.. cuz... cuz... ya hate unions, yah, that's a good reason!

Wait no, collective bargaining is good, if it is done on behalf of the shareholders, who pool all their money to amass power, but not the workers... because... cuz... I hates unions!!

And it's cool you have a great job and all, but Wal Mart and Target isn't exactly... a "great job"

I do believe balance can be acheived and that unions have their place, but if you don't want to work on Thanksgiving, find another job. Easy squeezy.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:40 AM

You seem to be wanting to argue..

There is nothing wrong with being for workers "rights"............What exactly are those "rights"? Who decides and who enforces?

You want workers to be off T-day......Others the winter or summer solstice, and yet others on Independence day....

Should they all be heard?

Who decides?

What's the penalty for non-compliance?

What if "workers" voluntarily don't comply?

the other holidays do not have mass swathes of people wanting the days off, so the logistics problems are not the same. If people want days other than a longstanding traditional holiday off, like thanksgiving, they can take it easily. But most people want thanksgiving off that is where this conflict is stemming from. You probably already knew that you were writing irrelevant garbage, but in case you didn't, now you do.

As far as the second question, if worker of these stores can force them not to make them work on thanksgiving, then the store will have to close, and anybody still insisting they must work on thanksgiving will show up to an empty store. Simple as that. No force. No penalties.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:41 AM

I do believe balance can be acheived and that unions have their place, but if you don't want to work on Thanksgiving, find another job. Easy squeezy.

No, it's not easy to just "find another job" for many many people. Especially those that have worked at target or Wal Mart for years. And in Target's case, they just found out six days ago they would be working Thanksgiving.

belian78

11-14-2012, 10:43 AM

LoL, coming from the man that called me a unionized zombie fuck. OK dude.
I'm not trying to debate or argue with you, I have too many like you to put up with in the area I live in. And I stand by my label of you, as you haven't proven to be anything but over the last 20 pages or so. Which, if you are telling the truth about not being in a union, makes it even worse that you are so vehemently slinging insults and talking points at others here.

jllundqu

11-14-2012, 10:43 AM

Me thinks some people here are confused about whether they like free will or Karl Marx

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:47 AM

It's a tough world out there, no matter what job you have, but no one sheds a tear for my struggles,

Sorry, I don't have time to shed a tear for your struggles, or know your struggles. But I will for the workers of these retail chains, because I know their sacred day is being taken from them for really no moral or decent reason. Profit in and of itself is no reason to rob people of their sacred holiday.

(not on Thanksgiving, but we don't get a break for travel unless you request off liek I did). It's part of the job.

So what? As I already explained, the reason why thanksgiving is a problem, is because everybody wants that day off. Al that other crap about wanting days off for football was real cute Youtube level commentary, but WalMart and Target would not have a problem finding a replacement for you on any other day, and people would not have to take off time from visiting family to cover for you.

It's not the same thing, so go ahead and drop it.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:48 AM

Which, if you are telling the truth about not being in a union, makes it even worse that you are so vehemently slinging insults and talking points at others here.

Yes, and why is it worse that I am not in a union?

Just like when I say america is evil for Iraq. People think I must be a Muslim. there is no way my passion could be from pure empathy of suffering.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:49 AM

Me thinks some people here are confused about whether they like free will or Karl Marx

I think a lot of people here are confused about whether they like free will or consumerism.

amy31416

11-14-2012, 10:51 AM

I worked for a unionized retailer back in the college days.

They're out of business now, so they'll get EVERY holiday off! Yayyyyyyyy.

UWDude

11-14-2012, 10:53 AM

I worked for a unionized retailer back in the college days.

They're out of business now, so they'll get EVERY holiday off! Yayyyyyyyy.

Oh yeah. This little cliche argument:

OMG, if Wal Mart and Target don't open at 8 PM, thanksgiving night... they'll go out of business, and no-one will have a job tehre!!11!!

LoL

Cliche post is cliche

TheGrinch

11-14-2012, 10:54 AM

Sorry, I don't have time to shed a tear for your struggles, or know your struggles. But I will for the workers of these retail chains, because I know their sacred day is being taken from them for really no moral or decent reason. Profit in and of itself is no reason to rob people of their sacred holiday.

So what? As I already explained, the reason why thanksgiving is a problem, is because everybody wants that day off. Al that other crap about wanting days off for football was real cute Youtube level commentary, but WalMart and Target would not have a problem finding a replacement for you on any other day, and people would not have to take off time from visiting family to cover for you.

It's not the same thing, so go ahead and drop it.

Actually it is really tough to get off weekends for football games (I had to cover another guys shifts to get him to cover mine), and it's sacred to me to grill out and watch the game with friends, jsut as important to me as Thanksgiving. That is a sacrifice I have to make every single week of the season, so yes, I think it's similar.

Look, again, unless you're passing legislation that NO ONE will be open on Thanksgiving (and even then that doesn't enable travel for those who work in retail, I still had to get my other shifts covered), then if Walmart isn't open, Target will be, etc. So to expect them to just forego profit to their competition just isn't going to happen. There will always be someone open on Black Friday and now into Thanksgiving because there is consumer demand to be the first for the hot deals.

I know you don't like that, I don't either, but it's part of a free market, that where there is demand there will be suppliers. Your Marxist views have already proven that they won't work. People are motivated by profit to better their lives, which includes doing things you don't always want to do. It's work, not fun.