Something to expect in the US if RP doesn't win...

[qednick]

Many of you will of heard about all the sneaky back-door taxes, government snooping, nannying, CCTV cameras, etc. imposed in Britain in the last decade. One of the things the government there has been trying to impose has been charge-by-the-mile road pricing/taxation. So, if you drive on major highways, you'll pay X amount per mile. Drive on sparse country roads with little traffic and pay much less per mile.

Obviously, to be able to calculate how much you owe, the government proposed that EVERY vehicle in the country be fitted (at the owner's expense) with a GPS tracking device.

The problem, IMO, is that not only will government cronies be able to see where and when you drove anywhere but they can also see exactly how fast you drove on any given stretch. Talk about an invasion of privacy.

2 million Britons signed an online petition letting Tony Blair know they weren't happy. So what happens? The government decide to just go ahead anyway. This in today's news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/22/nroads122.xml

The reason I'm posting this here is because this is EXACTLY the kind of thing (along with the CCTV cameras, ID cards, etc.) that we can expect to happen here in the US within the next few years.

The reason governments like Tony Blair's can get away with crap like this is because the sheeple are more concerned with what's happening on the latest edition of Pop Idol or what's going on in Britney Spears' or Paris Hilton's life.

[Therion]

That's stupid.

There's nothing else to say.

[LibertyCzar]

I've been envisioning those notorious book-burning events that were so famous in Nazi Germany. Then there's the cameras on every street corner. Guards everywhere demanding your papers (or National ID card).

Let's not forget about Iran ... and beyond. Remember the neocon thinking, we must police the world. But our military is already near collapse. We will be forced to return to conscription. Guess who will be first in line to ship out? Not the likes of the establishment. It'll be you and me.

Then we'll have the "under-class" illegals tending to their new masters. Yes, we are headed for a grim North American Union.

[pazzo83]

We have to take back our country people, we cannot let that happen.

I will say, that I don't know if I'll be able to live in a US with Rudolph Giuliani as president.

[wecandoit]

My car is going to start just fine without a GPS or national ID card. :)

[ADGettis]

Obviously, to be able to calculate how much you owe, the government proposed that EVERY vehicle in the country be fitted (at the owner's expense) with a GPS tracking device.

If this does happen, you can all move out here to Montana. With RealID on its way, our legislature this spring voted to invoke the 10th Amendment and overrule Congress. I am confident that if we were required to install mileage meters on our cars, our legislature would do the same.

Our governor's statement on RealID was this, verbatim: "No, nope, no way, Hell no!" Schweitzer is no Ron Paul (we're talking 30% proposed annual budget increases), but there's a bit of that spirit there.

[DrStrabismus]

I drive through providence, ri, almost every day and I've recently become aware of about 14 (I counted) cameras watching I95 the whole way through. They are probably just for monitoring traffic jams now, but they could conceivably be used for tracking purposes in the future.

[mdh]

Wow, it's an EU directive, too. EU now, NAU next.

[TruePatriot44]

I don't care what Ron Paul has to say concerning this topic. This is about state rights to charge fairly for road usage. Taxing gasoline is stupid because hybrid vehicles don't pay their fair share and vehicles that are gas guzzlers pay more. People are being charged with tax fraud for using alternative home made fuels such as vegetable oil because states can't tax it.

Unless you want to see tolls every 5 miles, a GPS car tracker is not all that bad.

[seefate]

I don't care what Ron Paul has to say concerning this topic. This is about state rights to charge fairly for road usage. Taxing gasoline is stupid because hybrid vehicles don't pay their fair share and vehicles that are gas guzzlers pay more. People are being charged with tax fraud for using alternative home made fuels such as vegetable oil because states can't tax it.

Unless you want to see tolls every 5 miles, a GPS car tracker is not all that bad.

Unless you want to see tolls every 5 miles? I do beleive this is why we have local and state taxes. As far as certain vehicles not paying their "fair share" what exactly are you talking about? If I drive a Hybrid and I can get 50 miles to the gallon with an 11 gallon tank how am I not paying my "fair share" versus a Hummer that gets 5 MPG with a 20 something gallon tank??

Not to mention installing a GPS tracker in everyones car is EXACTLY what Dr. Paul is fighting against, invasion of privacy!

[mdh]

I don't care what Ron Paul has to say concerning this topic. This is about state rights to charge fairly for road usage. Taxing gasoline is stupid because hybrid vehicles don't pay their fair share and vehicles that are gas guzzlers pay more. People are being charged with tax fraud for using alternative home made fuels such as vegetable oil because states can't tax it.

Unless you want to see tolls every 5 miles, a GPS car tracker is not all that bad.

Seriously, give me the toll booths!!!

[TruePatriot44]

Unless you want to see tolls every 5 miles? I do beleive this is why we have local and state taxes. As far as certain vehicles not paying their "fair share" what exactly are you talking about? If I drive a Hybrid and I can get 50 miles to the gallon with an 11 gallon tank how am I not paying my "fair share" versus a Hummer that gets 5 MPG with a 20 something gallon tank??

Not to mention installing a GPS tracker in everyones car is EXACTLY what Dr. Paul is fighting against, invasion of privacy!

Well lets say you drive 100 miles. The hummer fills up on 20 gallons and the Hybrid fills up on 2 gallons. With a modest 20 cent per gallon state tax, the driver of the Hummer pays $4.00 while the Hybrid pays just $0.40 cents. Yet they both drove the same distance and used the road equally. They do not pay a fair share.

If a state wants to use GPS then that is their right. Dr. Paul advocates state rights on these issues, such as abortion, gay marriage, education...ect.

[AgentSmith]

I cant wait until it gets like singapore and we get taxed whenever we drive based on time and place. Then only people who can afford it will be allowed to drive to work at 8am, and rush hour will move to 6am. And we will be double plus safe once Homeland Security is able to see where everyone is driving - they will be able to find terrorists better!

[propanes]

The Hummer and the other suv trucks contribute more wear and tear to the roads. The trucks pollute at a higher rate.


Well lets say you drive 100 miles. The hummer fills up on 20 gallons and the Hybrid fills up on 2 gallons. With a modest 20 cent per gallon state tax, the driver of the Hummer pays $4.00 while the Hybrid pays just $0.40 cents. Yet they both drove the same distance and used the road equally. They do not pay a fair share.

If a state wants to use GPS then that is their right. Dr. Paul advocates state rights on these issues, such as abortion, gay marriage, education...ect.

[jj111]

After talking about these things, you had better work your a**es off for the Ron Paul campaign if you know what's good for the future of the world....

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

"Can a person have a microscopic chip implanted in them to track their every move? You will have to rule on this, mark my words, before your tenure is over"

- Sen. Joe Biden, Supream Court Chief Justice John Roberts comfermation hearing.

[AZJV]

Many of you will of heard about all the sneaky back-door taxes, government snooping, nannying, CCTV cameras, etc. imposed in Britain in the last decade. One of the things the government there has been trying to impose has been charge-by-the-mile road pricing/taxation. So, if you drive on major highways, you'll pay X amount per mile. Drive on sparse country roads with little traffic and pay much less per mile.

Obviously, to be able to calculate how much you owe, the government proposed that EVERY vehicle in the country be fitted (at the owner's expense) with a GPS tracking device.

The problem, IMO, is that not only will government cronies be able to see where and when you drove anywhere but they can also see exactly how fast you drove on any given stretch. Talk about an invasion of privacy.

2 million Britons signed an online petition letting Tony Blair know they weren't happy. So what happens? The government decide to just go ahead anyway. This in today's news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/22/nroads122.xml

The reason I'm posting this here is because this is EXACTLY the kind of thing (along with the CCTV cameras, ID cards, etc.) that we can expect to happen here in the US within the next few years.

The reason governments like Tony Blair's can get away with crap like this is because the sheeple are more concerned with what's happening on the latest edition of Pop Idol or what's going on in Britney Spears' or Paris Hilton's life.

Excellent point. Below is a link to a video titled "The real face of the european union" This is a very scary look at what we have in store for us. England's soverignty has been been completely taken over. I was shocked when I watched this video. I had no idea the extent of control that the "union" wields over a country. Watch this docuementary and have your eyes opened. VERY SCARY STUFF

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2699800300274168460&q=european+union&total=177503&start=0&num=30&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[pazzo83]

Excellent point. Below is a link to a video titled "The real face of the european union" This is a very scary look at what we have in store for us. England's soverignty has been been completely taken over. I was shocked when I watched this video. I had no idea the extent of control that the "union" wields over a country. Watch this docuementary and have your eyes opened. VERY SCARY STUFF

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2699800300274168460&q=european+union&total=177503&start=0&num=30&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Why are the Brits letting this happen? They need to take their country back too.

[Andrew76]

As to anyone "paying their fair share," the law passed in the UK is not an effort to help pay for highways, but in fact is an effort to try and force a reduction in "congestion." I was in the UK when they were talking about this on the radio, touring around in a van no less.
The logic behind it is this: "Well, if someone wants to be selfish and drive themselves everywhere all the time instead of using mass transit, then by god they're going to pay for it! What'll we ever do with all of this traffic everywhere!" They'll track where you go, and how far you go, then tax you accordingly (if you use less travelled, country roads you get charged less). What this money is then used for, since it's not for making new roads, is anyone's guess. The craziest part is that over 2 million people signed a petition stating they want no such thing, but the EU... the freaking E!!!UU!!! is telling Great Britain what it will do. Utter madness. Churchill is spinning in his grave.

As to anyone advocating such a thing in the U.S. Gas taxes and state/local taxes already pay for roads and highways. The easy answer, at least to me, if someone wants to get all up in arms about someone else "paying their fair share," is to give tax incentives to owners of hybrid cars. Then again, todays re-chargeable cars actually pollute the same amount, if not more, since what they don't use in gas, they use in electricity ie: coal and nuclear power. Ditto for ethanol. Veggie oil cars, I don't know so much about, though I looove the idea. Ok, I'm done rambling. :D

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

Put a GPS in my car to track its every move? I have no doubt that someday the government will sign a law that puts a microchip in my arm.

[jj111]

Put a GPS in my car to track its every move? I have no doubt that someday the government will sign a law that puts a microchip in my arm.

Be optimistic. Work hard for Ron Paul and donate all you can to his campaign.

[NewEnd]

The Hummer and the other suv trucks contribute more wear and tear to the roads. The trucks pollute at a higher rate.

Also the science of traffic jams uses the size of the vehicle. Larger vehicles, both in length, and width, take more space, and slow down traffic.

Very interesting stuff. It doesn't seem like much alone, but when combined with all the other larger vehicles... everything counts in large amounts.

[dseisner]

I will say, that I don't know if I'll be able to live in a US with Rudolph Giuliani as president.

I grew up in the New York City area and Rudy is a hero there, a respected man. But I have told my family, don't hope Rudy wins, because I will have to move to another country...or fight to save this one. Good thing we have an alternative to Rudy...

[Shmuel Spade]

I grew up in the New York City area and Rudy is a hero there, a respected man. But I have told my family, don't hope Rudy wins, because I will have to move to another country...or fight to save this one. Good thing we have an alternative to Rudy...

You must be in a whole different part of town. I haven't met a single New Yorker who's a fan of Rudy yet.

[pazzo83]

You must be in a whole different part of town. I haven't met a single New Yorker who's a fan of Rudy yet.

I've just heard he was incredibly authoritarian

[Shmuel Spade]

I've just heard he was incredibly authoritarian

He was, but people were ready to accept that then as a trade off for protection. In reality Rudy rode a national wave of low crime to great success. His policies were generally an inept continuation of things pioneered during the Dinkins administration.

[pazzo83]

He was, but people were ready to accept that then as a trade off for protection. In reality Rudy rode a national wave of low crime to great success. His policies were generally an inept continuation of things pioneered during the Dinkins administration.

A LOT of Americans are, and that is not good at all.

[torchbearer]

I've got a large rifle collection. May have to use them if voting doesn't work.

[denvervoipguru]

One of the things the government there has been trying to impose has been charge-by-the-mile road pricing/taxation. So, if you drive on major highways, you'll pay X amount per mile. Drive on sparse country roads with little traffic and pay much less per mile.


OMG...Is there any police-state, globalist policy that people WONT SUPPORT in EU/UK???

[torchbearer]

If we could get rid of the control of the federal reserve....

[Gee]

Maybe we should all vote democrat until the government goes bankrupt. Libertarians and free markets always win in the end, because everything else goes broke.

[BuddyRey]

I'll tell you what to expect if Ron Paul doesn't win...

Me and my family moving to Portugal! :)

[Jeff556]

Eventually we are going to win anyways because the country is going broke and the dollar is going to collapse. Sure we will go through hard times but the US government will lose its main weapon and that is the dollar.

[kimosabi]

Eventually we are going to win anyways because the country is going broke and the dollar is going to collapse. Sure we will go through hard times but the US government will lose its main weapon and that is the dollar.

No your not, the new plan is to merge Canada, USA and Mexico, into a new union, ie European Union with a new constitution and currency...

The only way out for the USA is to get rid of the Federal Reserve or Create a new Currency...

[Jeff556]

Well lets say you drive 100 miles. The hummer fills up on 20 gallons and the Hybrid fills up on 2 gallons. With a modest 20 cent per gallon state tax, the driver of the Hummer pays $4.00 while the Hybrid pays just $0.40 cents. Yet they both drove the same distance and used the road equally. They do not pay a fair share.

If a state wants to use GPS then that is their right. Dr. Paul advocates state rights on these issues, such as abortion, gay marriage, education...ect.

Just because people want to buy gas guzzling vechicles does not mean that I have to put a GPS tracker in my car so that its fair for them. People who buy those kind of cars should already be prepared to spend more money then the rest of us on gas and on gas taxes.

I don't feel sorry for people who can afford things like hummers and expensive SUVs. And I will BE FUCKING DAMNED before i put a GPS tracker in my car so that things "are fair for them."

Its an outrageous suggestion that we should all put GPS trackers in our car so that things are more fair for the rich people who drive cars that give only 10 miles to the gallon, and im surprised that it would come on this board of all places. FUCK that. Don't act like people that drive things like hummers have no choice but to drive hummers, vehicles are not a race. If you feel so strongly about gas guzzler rights then go start a civil rights movement or something. You can be like the hummer Al Sharpton.

Sorry if I sound angry but the thought of having big brother watch everywhere I go for the sake of people that buy gas guzzling cars touched a nerve.

[beermotor]

If this does happen, you can all move out here to Montana. With RealID on its way, our legislature this spring voted to invoke the 10th Amendment and overrule Congress. I am confident that if we were required to install mileage meters on our cars, our legislature would do the same.

Our governor's statement on RealID was this, verbatim: "No, nope, no way, Hell no!" Schweitzer is no Ron Paul (we're talking 30% proposed annual budget increases), but there's a bit of that spirit there.



This is really our best hope, if things go south. GET ELECTED INTO YOUR STATE LEGISLATURES. There, we have a much better chance of fighting the Feds. I don't think there will ever be another Civil War type event - so they would be unlikely to try to use force. A strong state response to "illegal" Fed activity would give them a lot of pause, and provide a big groundswell for support of states rights as well. And bring this country back to where it was supposed to be.

[CJLauderdale4]

GPS, that's easy. I'll just work with my fellow engineers at my office to develop a GPS-jammer for all of those GPS SiRF frequencies. That'll fit nicely under my hood, hidden away with my LoJack.

Unfortunately, as soon as they get NO SIGNAL, they'll come pay me a visit and label me a 'domestic terrorist'. Club Gitmo here I come!!

[MsDoodahs]

Things I expect if Dr. Paul does not win:

National ID cards (very soon after elections)

Gov't control of the internet (Very soon after elections)

Military draft (Medium term, done as the US continues to stir up trouble around the globe. Initially there will be some protest, perhaps even sporadic violence.)

Borders sealed (medium term - once the state realizes Americans are actively leaving the country, then they will seal the borders. It will never be done to keep people OUT - it will be done to lock people IN.)

Economic collapse (longer term)

Balkanization (longer term, triggered by the economic collapse)

[BLS]

Just because people want to buy gas guzzling vechicles does not mean that I have to put a GPS tracker in my car so that its fair for them. People who buy those kind of cars should already be prepared to spend more money then the rest of us on gas and on gas taxes.

I don't feel sorry for people who can afford things like hummers and expensive SUVs. And I will BE FUCKING DAMNED before i put a GPS tracker in my car so that things "are fair for them."

Its an outrageous suggestion that we should all put GPS trackers in our car so that things are more fair for the rich people who drive cars that give only 10 miles to the gallon, and im surprised that it would come on this board of all places. FUCK that. Don't act like people that drive things like hummers have no choice but to drive hummers, vehicles are not a race. If you feel so strongly about gas guzzler rights then go start a civil rights movement or something. You can be like the hummer Al Sharpton.

Sorry if I sound angry but the thought of having big brother watch everywhere I go for the sake of people that buy gas guzzling cars touched a nerve.

Jeff, My man, I am glad you said it...cuzz my blood is boiling right now.
Who, on THIS forum of all places would suggest it's OK to put a GPS on our cars?!?!

And I PRAY for the soul who tries to insert any implant in my body.

[MsDoodahs]

Think about it.

The "we have to make it fair for the rich" is the first salvo in the battle to get the masses to accept/go along with the GPS in our cars idea. That will evolve, quickly.

It isn't about fairness to anyone or even about gas consumption - it's ABOUT GOVT CONTROL OVER EVERY ASPECT OF YOUR LIFE.

However - most people will latch onto the idea of somehow PUNISHING those who have more than they do. If the idea of putting a GPS in all cars as a way to force those evil rich bastards that have hummers to pay MORE in taxes is floated, then the envious among us will not only go for it, they'll CHAMPION it.

I hate this and it does sadden me, but the reality of my own experience is that many americans are highly envious creatures, and therefore tend to support any "tax" that they think will punish those who have more than they do.

[beermotor]

Have you guys watched that Zeitgeist movie on google? My mom forwarded it to me ... this after I had converted her to support RP instead of Fred Thompson (ugh). Part 3 is all about economics ... I knew most of the stuff already, but it is packaged pretty well. I haven't watched parts 1 or 2, which seem to be some kind of religious conspiracy stuff / 911 conspiracy stuff. I'm not a rabid follower of any of that stuff, but the financial stuff really hits home.

[torchbearer]

I saw part 3 and i want to buy airtime on tv to air it so many others can see it. the things they didnt teach you in high school... because who decides what uniform set of books you read?

[qednick]

Why are the Brits letting this happen? They need to take their country back too.

Like I said: people are more interested in Pop Idol (the precursor to American Idol), Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. That there is the problem folks!! And it's the same here. Which is why we need to get out and "educate" people as much as we can.

Don't forget, the Brits don't have a single real codified consititution like the US does though it does have the Magna Carta and 1689 Bill of Rights. However, people don't know as much about them over there so they are less likely to stand up for their rights as Americans are. Also, as far as I know, there are no politicians like RP over there.

[qednick]

OMG...Is there any police-state, globalist policy that people WONT SUPPORT in EU/UK???

I think pretty much most of them. It's just that over there, people elect in the politicians, then the politicians do whatever they like, whether the people object or not. One high court judge over there once said Britain is an "electoral dictatorship" - he was exactly right!!

[SeanEdwards]

The reason governments like Tony Blair's can get away with crap like this is because the sheeple are more concerned with what's happening on the latest edition of Pop Idol or what's going on in Britney Spears' or Paris Hilton's life.

What's funny about that is that Paris Hilton thinks the coverage of Paris Hilton is ridiculous when so many more important things are going on. :D

[joenaab]

Maybe we should all vote democrat until the government goes bankrupt. Libertarians and free markets always win in the end, because everything else goes broke.

To do that is to ignore the fact that government always runs the largest deficits under republican administrations, - Reagan, Bush I, Bush II. The bigger the debt, the more profits to the Federal Reserve. That's why they do it. They just lie better. ;)

[joenaab]

This is really our best hope, if things go south. GET ELECTED INTO YOUR STATE LEGISLATURES. There, we have a much better chance of fighting the Feds. I don't think there will ever be another Civil War type event - so they would be unlikely to try to use force. A strong state response to "illegal" Fed activity would give them a lot of pause, and provide a big groundswell for support of states rights as well. And bring this country back to where it was supposed to be.

Though I don't agree that a spiraling down into violent conflict at home is impossible, I agree completely that the states must begin to assert their constitutional rights and prepare for the event of a state-by-state cessession movement. There is an all out war on the constitution and national sovereignty. We might lose the federal government, but we could save the states and then re-group at that level and try to run the world government out again. They are heavily armed and will never hesitate to brutalize anyone anywhere anytime. Americans must wake up to this. The American superiority complex is it's achilles heel.

[joenaab]

Things I expect if Dr. Paul does not win:

National ID cards (very soon after elections)

Gov't control of the internet (Very soon after elections)

Military draft (Medium term, done as the US continues to stir up trouble around the globe. Initially there will be some protest, perhaps even sporadic violence.)

Borders sealed (medium term - once the state realizes Americans are actively leaving the country, then they will seal the borders. It will never be done to keep people OUT - it will be done to lock people IN.)

Economic collapse (longer term)

Balkanization (longer term, triggered by the economic collapse)

That is the "Lite" version of how I see it, but I agree with you entirely.

[qednick]

Excellent point. Below is a link to a video titled "The real face of the european union" This is a very scary look at what we have in store for us. England's soverignty has been been completely taken over. I was shocked when I watched this video. I had no idea the extent of control that the "union" wields over a country. Watch this docuementary and have your eyes opened. VERY SCARY STUFF

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2699800300274168460&q=european+union&total=177503&start=0&num=30&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Wow. Thanks for posting that movie link AZJV. I hadn't seen that before. All Americans need to watch that to know what the NAFTA and CAFTA have in store for them.

[mconder]

My car is going to start just fine without a GPS or national ID card.

What if they won't let you fuel without one of them?

[torchbearer]

they will try to hold us hostage with the national id card. making it law to prove your citizenship to make an essential purchases

[qednick]

My car is going to start just fine without a GPS or national ID card.

What if they won't let you fuel without one of them?

Yeah things are not always that simple. First of all, when I said GPS devices, I didn't mean the fancy Garmin type things that display maps and help you find where you're going. They're talking about a "black box" that sits on the dash and tracks where you go. Instead of paying the 42 cents (or whatever) tax on a gallon of gas, you pay X amount per mile - the X being based on the type of road and how busy it is.

Now, I'm guessing that cops would be on the look out for vehicles that don't have the black box on the dash or there will be be some technological manner in which a cop driving nearby can determine if you're a "tax dodger". They can already do this in the UK with car insurance whereby the cop car driving behind you scans your license plate and automatically checks against a giant database to see if your insurance coverage is current and valid - I only found out about this when my dad told me he'd been pulled over - his insurance company had somehow not updated the record in the giant DB in time.

So I suppose they could scan your license plate as you're driving and determine the following:

1] You are insured
2] You have a valid MOT (inspection)
3] You have valid road tax / registration
4] Your black box is valid and working properly
5] The vehicle's registered owner is not on some "wanted" list

Also, just a note about the Hummer vs Hybrid thing and what is "fair". You have to remember that gasoline/road usage taxes are voluntary. There is nobody forcing you to own a vehicle, drive and pay those taxes. Therefore, the type of vehicle you drive is also voluntary - if driving a Prius gives some kind of "tax break" in that respect then that's simply encouraging people to be more environmentally friendly.

[qednick]

they will try to hold us hostage with the national id card. making it law to prove your citizenship to make an essential purchases

The next step will be to turn the ID card into your "credit/debit" card and get rid of cash altogether. Then we'll all be royally screwed.

[torchbearer]

we will have to a print a new currency, like the original colonist did... and then King George will get mad and send our own fellow citizens to kill us.... but the people will win.. just like we did in 1783.

[Shmuel Spade]

Maybe we should all vote democrat until the government goes bankrupt. Libertarians and free markets always win in the end, because everything else goes broke.

Many desperate libertarians have come to that conclusion over the years. Vote for the absolute biggest government you can, and wait for the laws of economics to catch up with the government.

I couldn't personally vote to do such a thing, but I have heard the idea spoken of before. If REP isn't POTUS in 2008, I'm basically going "partyarch."

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

I dont know. Im willing to do that exact type of thing all the time to prove a point. Do things exactly the way someone wants just to show them it doesnt work.

But destroy the country just to prove all the big government socialists wrong?