Employment and Entitlement Problem

[Shredmonster]

So we have maybe an insurmountable problem at least for the intermediate future here.

You have manufacturing that has left and not very many high paying new jobs available.

At the same time we want to cut entitlement cause it is killing this country. And we need to cut government jobs and pensions for the same economic reasons.

However the paradox is where are these people suppose to earn a living wage if there are not enough jobs to support them ?

These people can't just go out and get a job anymore. This is due to horrible decisions made by greedy and evil politicians and corporations I know.

But this is the situation we now find ourselves in. Government has created what is right now a permanent voting block that relies on a paycheck from it.

This is a huge huge problem.

Can't get manufacturing back when China keeps its currency down and there is nothing we can do especially when the govt. is borrowing 40% of its needs every year from China. I knew once Clinton signed NAFTA it was over.

So anybody have any ideas cause personally I know taxes, regulations and law suits are killing business in this country and tort reform is not coming and taxes are not going down.

Anybody want to solve the puzzle ?

[acptulsa]

I'd like to see an accurate study done to show how many jobs could be created in this nation tomorrow if OSHA were demolished today.

[ShaneEnochs]

My second job was in manufacturing and I freaking loved that kind of work. The job still exists, but I quit due to managerial incompetence. They tried to do everything they could to fire me because I refused to be part of the "clique", so I quit instead. But that's another story.

Since then I've had to take jobs that pay 1/2 of the wages, but I got along with the people better so it kind of worked out. Then I lost my most recent job and we had to depend on the entitlement system (food stamps) to get by.

Well, now my wife and I are BOTH employed and I CANNOT WAIT to get off of foodstamps. I figure I'll finish out the month and then report my income. SO FREAKING EXCITED!

[dannno]

Anybody want to solve the puzzle ?

Yes, very easily.

First you say that we have a lost a lot of manufacturing jobs. Why? Primarily because of high taxes and regulations.

Secondly you say that the workforce has largely shifted over to government jobs, so it would be difficult to shrink government because these people wouldn't have private sector jobs to go to. The flaw in this logic is that the government jobs are paid for BY the private sector! So when you shrink government, you are actually giving money back to the private sector, money they can use to hire people. So if you reduce taxes and regulations and reduce the size of government, you will see unemployment fall dramatically as people go back into a increasingly more productive private sector.

[KCIndy]

1. Get rid of OSHA, as acptulsa aptly points out.
2. Lower corporate taxes to something near reasonable. At the moment the U.S. has the highest (or second highest, I forget which) corporate tax rate in the world. In the WORLD.
3. Abolish (or at least severely reduce) the Federal income tax.

These three things, and the economy would take off like a rocket.

Getting there is largely a matter of educating people. There, unfortunately, we still have a long way to go. :(

[Shredmonster]

Yes, very easily.

First you say that we have a lost a lot of manufacturing jobs. Why? Primarily because of high taxes and regulations.

Secondly you say that the workforce has largely shifted over to government jobs, so it would be difficult to shrink government because these people wouldn't have private sector jobs to go to. The flaw in this logic is that the government jobs are paid for BY the private sector! So when you shrink government, you are actually giving money back to the private sector, money they can use to hire people. So if you reduce taxes and regulations and reduce the size of government, you will see unemployment fall dramatically as people go back into a increasingly more productive private sector.

Not complete argument. What do you do with currency manipulation thereby everything in China is cheaper ie. labor costs etc. much cheaper in China ?

Taxes are not going down. You have to work with reality and what is not what will actually work or what you hope for. Taxes are going up and you won't be able to change this reality.

How do you convince corporations to make less profit cause that is what will happen even if you changed many regulations and the tax structure - why ? Cause US labor costs cannot compete.

And what do you think other countries will do when the US starts pulling its factories out even if they could ?

And here is one thing NOBODY EVER MENTIONS - many small businesses in America are getting their stuff made over in China. Take that away and you also hurt small business in America. Sunglasses, food items etc.... All kinds of stuff.

On top of that you have robotics doing many jobs people use to do.

And then RP supporters want to cut military. I agree however - where do they get jobs ?

This is a large problem with many facets to it. A simple argument does not cut it. This is a very complex situation now that we have sent our factories out of this country.

Not only is the average voter simple and lazy - they don't conceive complex issues. They are use to 30 second sound bites. There is not even enough time in debates to cover this single one issue.

[PauliticsPolitics]

If the marijuana referendums in CO and WA hold up, and a greater national movement commences, this could create a very profitable market.
This is an untapped industry which may open up.
(And I am not just talking about recreation marijuana, but also industrial hemp.)
I see no problem with taking jobs from violent mexican drug lords, and shifting those to hemp plantations, processing, and distribution locally.

The US is prime growing territory of hemp, and if properly utilized, could create a multi-billion dollar industry competing with oil and lumber.
Jobs for farmers, truckers, administrative workers, engineers, etc.

Too bad the Federal government prefers to hinder this industry because they are still under the thumb of Dupont and big oil...

[Shredmonster]

Then don't forget law suits. How are you going to convince an entire segment of the economy (LAWYERS) to do tort reform ? Think you will get that one by ?

Think you will win elections when environmentalists and the media is screaming you are killing us with pollution from moving factories back ?

It is nice to talk about regulations but try getting them recinded. Ain't happening.

Again I agree with all the ideas but you won't get them by politically and that is the reality we are dealing with and have to figure out. Give me some reality here.

[squarepusher]

Yes, very easily.

First you say that we have a lost a lot of manufacturing jobs. Why? Primarily because of high taxes and regulations.

Secondly you say that the workforce has largely shifted over to government jobs, so it would be difficult to shrink government because these people wouldn't have private sector jobs to go to. The flaw in this logic is that the government jobs are paid for BY the private sector! So when you shrink government, you are actually giving money back to the private sector, money they can use to hire people. So if you reduce taxes and regulations and reduce the size of government, you will see unemployment fall dramatically as people go back into a increasingly more productive private sector.

actually the federal reserve now pays for a lot of the government jobs.

The entitlement problem is social security and medical, maybe we could raise the pension age for the former to help.

[angelatc]

I'd like to see an accurate study done to show how many jobs could be created in this nation tomorrow if OSHA were demolished today.

Slash the minimum wage while you're dreaming. I'd love to hire a couple of high school kids to help me with some stuff, but I can't afford the minimum wage plus the employer taxes. Well, I can afford it, but it would turn a slight profit into a slight loss, which means why bother?

[Acala]

The simple answer is this:

For every dollar you don't spend on a government job or a subsidy, you return a dollar to taxpayers who then spend that dollar on buyhing goods or services they want or they invest it, creating capital that is used to hire people and makes goods and services cheaper for everyone. The money government leaves in the hands of the taxpayers doesn't get stuffed into mattresses. It is invested and spent. That is simple. It is just the flip side of the broken window fallacy.

Unfortunately, things are complicated by the phony monetary system that has essentially "created" jobs and blown up prices based a gigantic fraud. A very painful correction will be required that will cause massive job dislocation and price adjustments. It is going to hurt but will not last long if done right and the market will reach equilibrium. There is no such thing as voluntary unemplyment in a truly free market.

In any event, things cannot continue as they are. It will end one way or another. The better way to end it is with a decisive move to freedom and sound money.

[acptulsa]

Didn't mean to understate the advantage. OSHA is just the tip of the iceberg.

Sure there are other things besides asinine regulatory hoops that drive costs up in the U.S. But the simple fact that the goods can then be sold in the U.S. without serious shipping costs negates a good many of them...

[dannno]

Not complete argument. What do you do with currency manipulation thereby everything in China is cheaper ie. labor costs etc. much cheaper in China ?

Currency manipulation is due to monetary regulation. When I say reduce regulations, I don't just mean throw a few darts at a dartboard full of regulations. We need a more honest monetary system.




Taxes are not going down. You have to work with reality and what is not what will actually work or what you hope for. Taxes are going up and you won't be able to change this reality.

Taxes must be lowered. Sounds like some puzzle pieces missing from the puzzle box. The puzzle can't be solved unless one has access to all the pieces.




How do you convince corporations to make less profit cause that is what will happen even if you changed many regulations and the tax structure - why ? Cause US labor costs cannot compete.

There is no regulation or tax that is making any business sector more profitable except for some exceptions in the financial sector. There are SUBSIDIES that are making some individual corporations more profitable, even monopolist in nature. I have no problem taking these away. There are certainly individual corporations who will be hurt when regulations fall and their competitors are able to compete on a more level playing field, but the sector as a whole and the population as a whole will benefit.





And what do you think other countries will do when the US starts pulling its factories out even if they could ?

The cost to move an entire physical factory is too much. They may lay everybody off, move some of the equipment back over here, but not the factories themselves. They will be sold, at a much lower cost, to the highest bidder in that country where they can be used to manufacture goods for themselves or for nearby countries.




And here is one thing NOBODY EVER MENTIONS - many small businesses in America are getting their stuff made over in China. Take that away and you also hurt small business in America. Sunglasses, food items etc.... All kinds of stuff.

Small businesses have a disadvantage when it comes to selling imported goods because the minimum order quantities for imported goods are often much, much higher so companies like WalMart really have an advantage here. When our manufacturing base begins to expand here, smaller businesses will be on a more level playing field with companies like WalMart because they may have slightly high prices, but it won't be as dramatic as what we saw that drove them out to begin with, but they may provide a much better customer service experience.



On top of that you have robotics doing many jobs people use to do.

That is ALWAYS a good thing. I think one big concept you are missing here is that demand is infinite. Demand for Product X might not be infinite, but demand for SOME type of product will always exist. So as robots continue to make, say Product (Y), Product (Y) becomes cheaper and more people can afford them and our standard of living goes up. People who used to make Product (Y) can now move on to making Product (Z) or providing Service (T) which wouldn't exist if robots weren't making so much of Product (Y). So now people have Product (Y), Product (Z) and Service (T) where before robots all they had was Product (Y).




And then RP supporters want to cut military. I agree however - where do they get jobs ?

Right now the private sector is paying their salary and they aren't producing any goods or services. Give the money back to the private sector and let them HIRE the people in the military to produce goods or services, and we will benefit greatly from all of the goods and services they produce.




This is a large problem with many facets to it. A simple argument does not cut it. This is a very complex situation now that we have sent our factories out of this country.


Study Austrian Economics, it deals specifically with all of these questions you have brought up and provides very easy solutions.




Not only is the average voter simple and lazy - they don't conceive complex issues. They are use to 30 second sound bites. There is not even enough time in debates to cover this single one issue.

Do you like rap?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GTQnarzmTOc