PDA

View Full Version : U.S. waives Jones Act to help get fuel to Northeast




donnay
11-02-2012, 12:43 PM
U.S. waives Jones Act to help get fuel to Northeast
By Timothy Gardner and Ayesha Rascoe (http://news.yahoo.com/u-issues-blanket-jones-act-waiver-fuel-tankers-152041390.html) | Reuters – 21 mins ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. government issued a rare waiver on Friday allowing foreign tankers from the Gulf of Mexico to supply the Northeast with fuel after Hurricane Sandy, but the extent of relief was uncertain since some ports in the region still lack power.

The Department of Homeland Security's waiver of the Jones Act allows foreign vessels to begin shipping petroleum products, such as gasoline and diesel, from the Gulf of Mexico to Northeastern ports effective immediately and running through November 13.

With power still out at many ports and gasoline stations it was unclear how much fuel was needed immediately and how quickly it could get to customers.

DHS said it had received only one request from a company to waive the law. It did not identify the company.

The Jones Act, created to support jobs in the maritime industry, requires goods moved between U.S. ports to be carried by ships built domestically and staffed by U.S. crews.

The American Maritime Partnership (AMP), a domestic maritime industry group, said it was not aware of any cases where U.S. vessels had not been available to transport fuel. But it supported waivers in the aftermath of the massive storm.

"We will not oppose waivers that are necessary to facilitate delivery of petroleum products into the regions affected by Hurricane Sandy," AMP said in a letter sent on Friday to President Barack Obama and the heads of several government departments.

Benchmark New York Harbor gasoline futures dropped 5 cents, or 2 percent, on news of the waivers, which could allow shippers to divert cargoes that are en route to Europe or Latin America to the depleted Northeast market.

NO URGENT NEED?

Craig Fugate, the head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, told reporters several government agencies were trying to figure out how many ships were available. He said the Energy Department held a conference call on Friday with major suppliers.

"We're working ... on which ships can be potentially diverted to New York," Fugate said.

Shipping sources said the slow return of power to ports in the New York Harbor had them considering delivering fuel to nearby cities such as Boston which could boost supplies available in the wider Northeast region.

Energy experts said the waiver might not bring immediate relief to fuel-strapped New York and New Jersey, where two refineries were shut by Sandy. But, in the longer term, shipping alternatives could help ensure steady supply.

"There appears to be no urgent need at the moment" for a Jones Act waiver, said Bob McNally, head of Washington-based consulting firm the Rapidan Group. He said shortages so far have been at the retail level rather than the maritime import level.

David Goldwyn, who headed international energy affairs at the U.S. State Department until early 2011, said the waiver could boost the ability to deliver fuel to the East Coast now that tankers that were set to go to Europe or other destinations can dock there without restriction.

"The travel from Gulf Coast to the East Coast is pretty quick," said Goldwyn, who currently runs Goldwyn Global Strategies, an energy research and strategy company.

(Additional reporting by Roberta Rampton, Susan Cornwell and Robert Campbell in New York; Editing by Gerald E. McCormick, Phil Berlowitz and Jim Marshall)

jkr
11-02-2012, 01:15 PM
but VOLUNTEERS from alaBAMA are not PERMITTED to help restore power... what a convoluted wad of $hit guBBermint is

Feeding the Abscess
11-02-2012, 02:13 PM
The Jones Act should be permanently repealed.

bunklocoempire
11-02-2012, 02:37 PM
The Jones Act, created to support jobs in the maritime industry control people, gouge people, and stifle competition, requires goods moved between U.S. ports to be carried by ships built domestically and staffed by U.S. crews.

:mad:

phill4paul
11-02-2012, 02:47 PM
The Jones Act should be permanently repealed.

Amurika should be considered in a permanent state of emergency and waive all this crap.

FrancisMarion
11-02-2012, 03:30 PM
I imagine this goes hand in hand with this?

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2012/11/01/EPA-issues-gasoline-waivers-post-Sandy/UPI-56661351767870/

Matt Collins
06-15-2021, 07:48 AM
https://youtu.be/zvwg2iFzcG0

donnay
06-15-2021, 08:29 AM
https://youtu.be/zvwg2iFzcG0

Anything that comes out of "Reason" is far from reasonable. They have been promoting globalism for years and against any "America First" policies to help Americans.

Did people not learn anything during the crazy plannedemic? Do you want to outsource everything so when we need things, other countries lord over us--basically making us beg for medicine, oil and other goods?

The next disaster on a cruise ship, like what happened in 1998 (on the Carnival cruise ship Ecstasy), when it caught on fire, just miles offshore of Miami. Most of the crew abandoned the ship and the passengers were left to their own devices. Thank goodness, they were close enough for Coast Guard to help extinguish the fire. But there are many more stories like this one. Cruise ships are foreign flagged, which means they do not have an American crew handling it, nor do they have to follow the stringent protocol that American crew members must adhere to.

Invisible Man
06-15-2021, 09:05 AM
Anything that comes out of "Reason" is far from reasonable. They have been promoting globalism for years and against any "America First" policies to help Americans.

Did people not learn anything during the crazy plannedemic? Do you want to outsource everything so when we need things, other countries lord over us--basically making us beg for medicine, oil and other goods?

The next disaster on a cruise ship, like what happened in 1998 (on the Carnival cruise ship Ecstasy), when it caught on fire, just miles offshore of Miami. Most of the crew abandoned the ship and the passengers were left to their own devices. Thank goodness, they were close enough for Coast Guard to help extinguish the fire. But there are many more stories like this one. Cruise ships are foreign flagged, which means they do not have an American crew handling it, nor do they have to follow the stringent protocol that American crew members must adhere to.


One of the worst ideas that Donald Trump ran on for President were the ideas of mercantilism and protectionism. America is overloaded with politically-connected corporations getting laws passed that tilt the tables to their advantage. The last thing we need are more of these crony laws.But protectionist measures, even though they're a bad idea, sell very well.


They're like the idea of "FREE" Healthcare. Yeah, it's a deadly idea, but it sells extremely well.


Wouldn't you know ... Irony has struck again.


Because the protectionist Jones Act was so horrendous by blocking aid to Puerto Rico, the protectionist President Trump was forced to "temporarily" repeal it.


Don't toy with us Mr. President.


​We don't need a "temporary" breather from a bad idea. Get rid of the Jones Act for good!


We need to be freed from every protectionist measure that is put into place by politically-connected and crony corporations.
The measures stem from the false idea that trade is a zero-sum game, where someone "wins" at someone else's expense.


Trump campaigned by saying "We don't win anymore."


Besides being a soundbite that sells well, it just displays his big understanding about how trade works.


"We don't win anymore" makes no sense.


Whenever two people voluntarily make an exchange, it's always a "win-win" situation. There are no losers in voluntary exchanges.


If two people voluntarily exchange, it means that both believe they will be better off by doing it.


If one of the people thought that they would be worse off, they could simply say "no" and refuse to make the exchange.


Protectionists live under the false idea of zero-sum. As a result, they want government to violently intrude into an exchange, and tilt the tables in one direction. The corporations that get the government to act on their behalf do so to protect themselves from competitors.


Protectionism stifles the marketplace.


Once this practice gets going, everyone wants in on the action. If your competitor is greasing the government, you feel like you have to do the same.


Politicians love it because it gives them a false sense of power, and inflates their importance. Everyone is lobbying for their favors.


Protectionism is economic poison.




We should always call for its abolishment.
http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/great-news-protectionist-president-peels-back-protectionism

donnay
06-15-2021, 09:27 AM
http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/great-news-protectionist-president-peels-back-protectionism

And did Puerto Rico get what they needed? It seem that the protectionists were the officials holding supplies needed from the residence of Puerto Rico.

President Trump was not perfect, nor is any man (or woman), but if you are expecting someone perfect to come along, you'll have to wait a little while longer, because he is coming to right all the wrongs.

Invisible Man
06-15-2021, 09:38 AM
And did Puerto Rico get what they needed? It seem that the protectionists were the officials holding supplies needed from the residence of Puerto Rico.

President Trump was not perfect, nor is any man (or woman), but if you are expecting someone perfect to come along, you'll have to wait a little while longer, because he is coming to right all the wrongs.

The point wasn't to compare Trump to anyone else. The point was that protectionism is always bad and that the Jones Act should not just get temporarily lifted, but repealed altogether. Defending protectionism because it ostensibly puts America first is misguided. Protectionism doesn't help America. It hurts us.

As for Trump, whereas a lot of people here (including you, if I'm reading you right) see his "America first" protectionism as a selling point, Ron Paul's view is in line with the view of Reason Magazine that you criticized, that this is one of Trump's most serious problems.

donnay
06-15-2021, 11:16 AM
The point wasn't to compare Trump to anyone else. The point was that protectionism is always bad and that the Jones Act should not just get temporarily lifted, but repealed altogether. Defending protectionism because it ostensibly puts America first is misguided. Protectionism doesn't help America. It hurts us.

As for Trump, whereas a lot of people here (including you, if I'm reading you right) see his "America first" protectionism as a selling point, Ron Paul's view is in line with the view of Reason Magazine that you criticized, that this is one of Trump's most serious problems.

You will never get the same playing fields. This is what Trump was trying to do, but most people condemned him for it. I love Ron Paul, and I do not think he could have just repealed these things overnight.

We are supposed to be independent, yet there are many counties out there that do not agree with independence. Again, the plannedemic proved that these very countries were willing to blackmail us for medical devices and supplies that had been outsourced. You cannot ask for an investigation of a country that holds the Ace in their hands.

Invisible Man
06-15-2021, 11:31 AM
You will never get the same playing fields. This is what Trump was trying to do, but most people condemned him for it. I love Ron Paul, and I do not think he could have just repealed these things overnight.

We are supposed to be independent, yet there are many counties out there that do not agree with independence. Again, the plannedemic proved that these very countries were willing to blackmail us for medical devices and supplies that had been outsourced. You cannot ask for an investigation of a country that holds the Ace in their hands.

I get that protectionists think this way. But that doesn't make it any better. Other countries having protectionist policies is never an excuse to support America having them too. It doesn't matter if there's a level playing field. Protectionism is always bad.

Matt Collins
06-15-2021, 11:39 AM
Anything that comes out of "Reason" is far from reasonable.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic

Sometimes they put out some good material, sometimes they don't.



They have been promoting globalism for years and against any "America First" policies to help Americans.This has nothing to do with globalism. It has to do with burdensome regulation placed by the US federal government which harms Americans.


Did people not learn anything during the crazy plannedemic? Do you want to outsource everything so when we need things, other countries lord over us--basically making us beg for medicine, oil and other goods?This is where the free market comes in. And business is always a learning endeavor so adjustments and tweaks to models are always being made. Supply chains are being tweaked as a result of 2020.

Also, the shortages were almost all government created, by every government, including the government in DC.


The next disaster on a cruise ship, like what happened in 1998 (on the Carnival cruise ship Ecstasy), when it caught on fire, just miles offshore of Miami. Most of the crew abandoned the ship and the passengers were left to their own devices. Thank goodness, they were close enough for Coast Guard to help extinguish the fire. But there are many more stories like this one. Cruise ships are foreign flagged, which means they do not have an American crew handling it, nor do they have to follow the stringent protocol that American crew members must adhere to.What does that have to do with cabotage or the Jones Act? :confused:

jmdrake
06-15-2021, 12:34 PM
https://youtu.be/zvwg2iFzcG0

Good video.


Anything that comes out of "Reason" is far from reasonable. They have been promoting globalism for years and against any "America First" policies to help Americans.

Did people not learn anything during the crazy plannedemic? Do you want to outsource everything so when we need things, other countries lord over us--basically making us beg for medicine, oil and other goods?

Ummmm....that's got nothing to do with whether the stuff that were are importing anyway regardless of the Jones act is shipped via truck or via ship. And lots of trucks on the road today are foreign built and/or foreign owned.



The next disaster on a cruise ship, like what happened in 1998 (on the Carnival cruise ship Ecstasy), when it caught on fire, just miles offshore of Miami. Most of the crew abandoned the ship and the passengers were left to their own devices. Thank goodness, they were close enough for Coast Guard to help extinguish the fire. But there are many more stories like this one. Cruise ships are foreign flagged, which means they do not have an American crew handling it, nor do they have to follow the stringent protocol that American crew members must adhere to.

Mmmmm.....okay. And that has what exactly to do with the Jones Act? :confused: So...you're worried that the Chinese junk being ferried from New York to Puerto Rico gets left to its own devices?

donnay
06-15-2021, 04:22 PM
What does that have to do with cabotage or the Jones Act? :confused:



HOW THE JONES ACT AFFECTS CRUISE SHIPS

The Jones Act is a set of laws about maritime vessels, their workers, passengers, and freight. It is often referred to by its European counterpart name of the Cabotage Law (pronounced like sabotage).

The Jones Act has a portion of the law that specifically covers cruise ships and their passengers. This law, the Passenger Vessel Services Act or PVSA, applies to ships carrying passengers, versus ships carrying cargo.

Learn more about the Jones Act Law/PVSA and how it applies to cruise ships in the U.S.

Jones Act and the PVSA
The Jones Act applies to vessels carrying merchandise from one U.S. port to another. If a ship will move merchandise between U.S. ports it must be built, owned, and a documented vessel. So, if a ship is moving goods within the U.S., they must abide by all U.S. maritime laws.

The Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) applies to cruise ships because cruise ships move passengers. The PVSA prevents a ship from taking passengers from one U.S. port and dropping them off or having them exit the ship in another port. The only way a cruise ship can do this is to be registered in the U.S. and fall under all U.S. maritime laws.

How Do These Affect Cruise Ships?
Most cruise ships operating out of U.S. ports are not registered in the U.S. This means cruise lines must carefully structure their itineraries.

The Jones Act for cruise ships has a few exceptions. If they start in one U.S. port and visit a distant port (one not in North America), then they can depart at a different U.S. port. For example, a passenger could board in Miami, then stop in Bonaire and Curacao (part of South America), travel through the Panama Canal and drop passengers off in a port in California.

Another exception is if a cruise ship is not registered in the U.S. and leaves from a U.S. port then it may not drop passengers at a different U.S. port, but can still stop at a second U.S. port. For example, if passengers board in Ft. Lauderdale for a cruise, they can stop in the Florida Keys, but it cannot be the final destination. The ships may do this only if they visit at least one foreign port during the journey.

Penalties for Breaking the PVSA
Cruise lines are motivated to avoid breaking the Jones Act/PVSA because if they don’t abide by the law they are fined per passenger. If the ship leaves from Ft.Lauderdale, stops in the Florida Keys and a passenger exits the ship without returning the cruise line is fined (not the passenger).

If passenger S boards a ship in say New Jersey. They get off the ship in Maine for an excursion and are injured. They are staying off the ship for medical treatment.

The person traveling with them also exits the ship. The ship is fined for both passengers leaving on a different U.S. port than where they started.

There are several situations where cruise lines can apply for waivers for the Jones Act/PVSA.

Cabotage Law and Its Effects for Cruise Ships in the U.S.
The Cabotage Law or Jones Act Laws require cruise ships to not only carefully structure their itineraries, but also to closely keep track of their passengers at each port. Cruise lines are motivated to know they have boarded all of their passengers, especially at U.S. ports, to avoid fines from these laws.
https://www.barneslawfirm.com/how-the-jones-act-affects-cruise-ships/

jmdrake
06-16-2021, 06:05 PM
https://www.barneslawfirm.com/how-the-jones-act-affects-cruise-ships/


Penalties for Breaking the PVSA
Cruise lines are motivated to avoid breaking the Jones Act/PVSA because if they don’t abide by the law they are fined per passenger. If the ship leaves from Ft.Lauderdale, stops in the Florida Keys and a passenger exits the ship without returning the cruise line is fined (not the passenger).

If passenger S boards a ship in say New Jersey. They get off the ship in Maine for an excursion and are injured. They are staying off the ship for medical treatment.

The person traveling with them also exits the ship. The ship is fined for both passengers leaving on a different U.S. port than where they started.

There are several situations where cruise lines can apply for waivers for the Jones Act/PVSA.


And why exactly do you think ^that is a good idea?

TheCount
06-16-2021, 07:53 PM
And why exactly do you think ^that is a good idea?

Because forbidding cruise lines from requiring their passengers to be vaccinated makes America great.

jmdrake
06-16-2021, 08:04 PM
Because forbidding cruise lines from requiring their passengers to be vaccinated makes America great.

I know your trolling but have fun! Nothing donnay said in this thread has anything to do with vaccination. That said, with all of the pro-vaccination propaganda being pushed the the federal government, it is right an proper for the states to push back. It would be one thing if everyone was making a free market choice. But that's not what's happening.

donnay
06-16-2021, 08:40 PM
And why exactly do you think ^that is a good idea?

Because foreign flags ships do not follow the same protocols that our US captains and crew follow. I already stated an example above.

jmdrake
06-16-2021, 08:44 PM
Because foreign flags ships do not follow the same protocols that our US captains and crew follow. I already stated an example above.

The example you gave showed that foreign flagged shipped were motivated by the Jones Act itself to do things that don't make sense. Your example doesn't prove what you think it proves. Quite the opposite actually. From your example it seems the Jones Act causes more problems than it solves.

Matt Collins
06-16-2021, 08:46 PM
Because foreign flags ships do not follow the same protocols that our US captains and crew follow. I already stated an example above.
So waht?

It should be a free market.

donnay
06-16-2021, 08:48 PM
The example you gave showed that foreign flagged shipped were motivated by the Jones Act itself to do things that don't make sense. Your example doesn't prove what you think it proves. Quite the opposite actually. From your example it seems the Jones Act causes more problems than it solves.

Example: The 1998 fire onboard the cruise ship, Ecstasy. Much of the crew abandoned ship on life rafts and left the passengers to their own devices. That is NOT what a American flagged crew would have done. We saw this up in Alaska, which had one of the last American flagged cruise ships some years back.

donnay
06-16-2021, 08:52 PM
So waht?

It should be a free market.

Yeah in a perfect world I would agree...but we don't live in a perfect world. When in the last 70-plus years, there are lots of people who hate America and Americans and would have no problem seeing terrible things happen to Americans.

jmdrake
06-16-2021, 08:55 PM
Example: The 1998 fire onboard the cruise ship, Ecstasy. Much of the crew abandoned ship on life rafts and left the passengers to their own devices. That is NOT what a American flagged crew would have done. We saw this up in Alaska, which had one of the last American flagged cruise ships some years back.

And the Jones Act prevented that how? Oh wait....it didn't.

donnay
06-16-2021, 08:58 PM
And the Jones Act prevented that how? Oh wait....it didn't.

They were fined and sued under the current Jones Act/ PVSA for many violations.

TheCount
06-16-2021, 09:25 PM
I know your trolling but have fun! Nothing @donnay (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=7656) said in this thread has anything to do with vaccination.

It's an equivalent restriction on a similar industry, also implemented out of what seems to be essentially virtue signalling.



That said, with all of the pro-vaccination propaganda being pushed the the federal government, it is right an proper for the states to push back.

Push back against the federal government by regulating private businesses based in that state? :confused:

Anti Federalist
06-17-2021, 03:41 AM
Jones is not just protectionist legislation, it recognizes that a merchant fleet, shipbuilding and the men to build and sail that fleet are critical to national defense.

The ChiComs have quietly purchased hulls, ports, shipping lines and other crucial maritime assets over the last thirty years, to the point now, if they so desired, they could shut down maritime trade that we now rely to supply our economy with cheap shit that masks the dirty tricks and inflation the Fed has been playing with the money.

The America Last crowd won't acknowledge that any more than they will acknowledge that the nation's trade policy should always favor US production and US workers.

Hell, we're just coming away from a ChiCom bio-weapon attack that, if you want to believe the official numbers, left 600,000 US citizens dead, and still counting.

God knows how many more will die from "vaccine" after effects.

And we do nothing to reply, avenge, retaliate or defend ourselves against this war crime.

Not even the Fifth Columnists and China Quislings responsible within our own government, like Fauchi, will held accountable.

Years ago, I would have vigorously entered this debate, but now, having my maritime career ended by Joe Biden and his Executive Order pen, I don't give a fuck anymore.

The AmeriKunt people want $10 a gallon gasoline, they want to save three cents on every pack of rubber dog shit shipped in COSCO hulls, they want hostile foreign nations controlling the shipping of oil and grain and food and vital raw materials internally within the country?

Fine, fuck them, give 'em what they want.

jmdrake
06-17-2021, 05:14 AM
It's an equivalent restriction on a similar industry, also implemented out of what seems to be essentially virtue signalling.

Not at all equivalent but in your mind I'm sure you can do the mental gymnastics contortions to make it so.


Push back against the federal government by regulating private businesses based in that state? :confused:

The federal government pushed nationwide lockdowns. Businesses obviously want to be opened up. Requiring vaccine passports are "virtue signaling" to the PTB. "Hey, don't lock us down again. We believe the science." (No such thing as the science.) Dr. Fauci first floated the idea of "immunity passports" just a few months into the pandemic. So this is pushback to a federal government pushed mandate.

jmdrake
06-17-2021, 05:22 AM
Good points. It's like we have foreign made chips in our ships. (Hey that rhymes?) Who knows what backdoors lurk there? I remember back in the 80s when I was taking computer science classes reading in the documentation for the (now obselete) Data Encryption Standard which stated it could be exported for national defense and thinking "Since most of the graduate level comp sci majors are foreign born, including from China, how exactly are they going to keep some words on a piece of paper from being exported?"

Anyhow, which executive order from Uncle Joe ended your merchant marine career?


Jones is not just protectionist legislation, it recognizes that a merchant fleet, shipbuilding and the men to build and sail that fleet are critical to national defense.

The ChiComs have quietly purchased hulls, ports, shipping lines and other crucial maritime assets over the last thirty years, to the point now, if they so desired, they could shut down maritime trade that we now rely to supply our economy with cheap $#@! that masks the dirty tricks and inflation the Fed has been playing with the money.

The America Last crowd won't acknowledge that any more than they will acknowledge that the nation's trade policy should always favor US production and US workers.

Hell, we're just coming away from a ChiCom bio-weapon attack that, if you want to believe the official numbers, left 600,000 US citizens dead, and still counting.

God knows how many more will die from "vaccine" after effects.

And we do nothing to reply, avenge, retaliate or defend ourselves against this war crime.

Not even the Fifth Columnists and China Quislings responsible without our own government, like Fauchi, will held accountable.

Years ago, I would have vigorously entered this debate, but now, having my maritime career ended by Joe Biden and his Executive Order pen, I don't give a $#@! anymore.

The AmeriKunt people want $10 a gallon gasoline, they want to save three cents on every pack of rubber dog $#@! shipped in COSCO hulls, they want hostile foreign nations controlling the shipping of oil and grain and food and vital raw materials internally within the country?

Fine, $#@! them, give 'em what they want.

Anti Federalist
06-17-2021, 07:37 AM
Anyhow, which executive order from Uncle Joe ended your merchant marine career?


President Biden, in one of his first actions in office, put a 60-day pause on the issuance of new permits and leases for drilling and fracking on federal lands. Days later he signed an executive order suspending new oil and gas leasing in an effort to combat climate change.

The American Petroleum Institute projects a drilling ban on federal lands and waters extended through 2030 would result in 1 million job losses by 2022 with the biggest impact being felt in the states of Texas, Wyoming and New Mexico. (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/several-lawmakers-will-demand-answers-from-interior-dept-on-oil-and-gas-issues)
jmdrake

That was the final nail in the coffin.

These bans included all federal offshore leases, which is where 90 percent of all offshore drilling occurs.

My line of work was in a very specialized segment of drilling and production in ultra deepwater projects.

Spending on these wells is calculated in decades of time and billions of dollars.

The Biden ban, while now subject to court challenges, threw enough cold water on a sector that was, frankly, already suffering from Trump's opposing mandates opening millions of acres of much cheaper onshore lands to drill on (I don't complain as much about these because they were good for the country and for me and my fellow citizens), that interest and investing in new ultra deepwater projects essentially dried up overnight.

No sane CEO at BP or Exxon or Shell is going to commit billions of dollars in a US deepwater project now, if the permits or process can be shut down by a POTUS hostile to your business, simply by the stroke of a pen, like this or the Keystone pipeline.

So, that was all it took to shut down my little corner of that world, combined with a medical issue I'm healing from, it pushed me into what can only be called "early retirement".

Maybe things will change in a year or two, but I'm not optimistic, and there are some other outfits that are hiring, hedging that oil prices will climb so high we'll have no choice but to get back to drilling, so maybe that will be an option on a personal level.

Marxists want this because that's what Marxist revolutionaries do.

Idiot America wants it because they are so galactically stupid, they really do think you run a nation's energy grid on Unicorn farts and rainbows.

jmdrake
06-17-2021, 09:17 AM
jmdrake

That was the final nail in the coffin.

These bans included all federal offshore leases, which is where 90 percent of all offshore drilling occurs.

My line of work was in a very specialized segment of drilling and production in ultra deepwater projects.

Spending on these wells is calculated in decades of time and billions of dollars.

The Biden ban, while now subject to court challenges, threw enough cold water on a sector that was, frankly, already suffering from Trump's opposing mandates opening millions of acres of much cheaper onshore lands to drill on (I don't complain as much about these because they were good for the country and for me and my fellow citizens), that interest and investing in new ultra deepwater projects essentially dried up overnight.

No sane CEO at BP or Exxon or Shell is going to commit billions of dollars in a US deepwater project now, if the permits or process can be shut down by a POTUS hostile to your business, simply by the stroke of a pen, like this or the Keystone pipeline.

So, that was all it took to shut down my little corner of that world, combined with a medical issue I'm healing from, it pushed me into what can only be called "early retirement".

Maybe things will change in a year or two, but I'm not optimistic, and there are some other outfits that are hiring, hedging that oil prices will climb so high we'll have no choice but to get back to drilling, so maybe that will be an option on a personal level.

Marxists want this because that's what Marxist revolutionaries do.

Idiot America wants it because they are so galactically stupid, they really do think you run a nation's energy grid on Unicorn farts and rainbows.

Thanks. I think you explained that before and I forgot. And yeah...this is ridiculous.

TheCount
06-21-2021, 10:56 PM
Not at all equivalent but in your mind I'm sure you can do the mental gymnastics contortions to make it so.


The federal government pushed nationwide lockdowns. Businesses obviously want to be opened up. Requiring vaccine passports are "virtue signaling" to the PTB. "Hey, don't lock us down again. We believe the science." (No such thing as the science.) Dr. Fauci first floated the idea of "immunity passports" just a few months into the pandemic. So this is pushback to a federal government pushed mandate.

Just because you like the restriction doesn't make it not a restriction.

The cruise lines are forbidden from requiring vaccinations for cruises originating in FL. Replaced a federal mandate with a state mandate is not improving the situation except for those with an emotional attachment to the specifics of the mandate.

jmdrake
06-22-2021, 02:13 PM
Just because you like the restriction doesn't make it not a restriction.

Straw man argument. I didn't say it wasn't a restriction. I said they weren't equivalent. In this case we are talking about a restriction meant to counteract another government restriction. You know, like the 1964 Civil Right Act, which put restrictions on private business, countered the decades of government and KKK enforced segregation? And before you say "I thought you were against the 1964 Civil Rights Act", realize you are talking to the wrong person.



The cruise lines are forbidden from requiring vaccinations for cruises originating in FL. Replaced a federal mandate with a state mandate is not improving the situation except for those with an emotional attachment to the specifics of the mandate.

Right. And most cruise lines originate in, you guessed it, Florida. So Florida's action had the effect of repealing a federally encouraged mandate. The feds haven't said there has to be a vaccine passport, but they have certainly pushed the hell out of the idea. It's been the steady federal propaganda drumbeat that is what caused the lockdowns in the first place. This despite the fact that Iceland had fewer per capita COVID deaths than any other industrialized country without doing lockdowns or mask mandates.

TheCount
06-22-2021, 03:02 PM
In this case we are talking about a restriction meant to counteract another government restriction.

Ah, I see, we're being pro-business by being anti-business. It's for their own good, really.


Only... What restriction is being counteracted?



So Florida's action had the effect of repealing a federally encouraged mandate.

You can't repeal something that doesn't exist.

Also, the cruise lines have chosen to require vaccination everywhere else, are actually shifting cruises away from Florida, and are imposing severe penalties on passengers who do not voluntarily report their vaccination status.

Is that all a sham? Do the cruise lines secretly love the benevolent restriction which has been placed upon them?


Who will be financially responsible in the case of an outbreak on a cruise ship? Will the Florida state government will pay out of its coffers in the event of any lawsuits against the cruise lines?




This despite the fact that Iceland had fewer per capita COVID deaths than any other industrialized country without doing lockdowns or mask mandates.

The Iceland which closed its borders and now requires proof of vaccination or prior infection in order to travel there? That Iceland?

jmdrake
06-23-2021, 05:19 AM
Ah, I see, we're being pro-business by being anti-business. It's for their own good, really.

That's not what I said. But let me ask you straight up. Are you against the 1964 civil rights act yes or no? You've not come across as libertarian but rather contrarian. But maybe I misread you.



Only... What restriction is being counteracted?


The official CDC recommendations which shut down the country as most governors followed them. It makes perfect business sense for a company, whether it agreed with vaccine mandates or not, to say "I don't want to be shut down by California again so I'll put in a vaccine mandate. Better to be safe than sorry."



You can't repeal something that doesn't exist.


Just because you claim something doesn't exist doesn't make you right. There were federally encouraged lockdowns in most states.



Also, the cruise lines have chosen to require vaccination everywhere else, are actually shifting cruises away from Florida, and are imposing severe penalties on passengers who do not voluntarily report their vaccination status.


That's fine for them. So what are you complaining about? Federalism is working. And the free market has been saved. We don't have one state like California setting the agenda for the entire nation. And Florida isn't setting the agenda for the entire nation. If you want a "vaccine certified cruse" you can get one. And if you want cruise with no vaccine mandate you can get one. Awesome! By the way, the states they are shifting to are the ones that had the restrictions that you keep claiming don't exist.



Is that all a sham? Do the cruise lines secretly love the benevolent restriction which has been placed upon them?


Non argument. Cause for speculation.



Who will be financially responsible in the case of an outbreak on a cruise ship? Will the Florida state government will pay out of its coffers in the event of any lawsuits against the cruise lines?


Who will be responsible for the people dying from vaccines?



The Iceland which closed its borders and now requires proof of vaccination or prior infection in order to travel there? That Iceland?

Closing the borders under those circumstances was a great idea. And Iceland smashed COVID before vaccinations were around. So...what's your point? Mine was that lockdowns and masks were not required to smash COVID. Vaccines weren't either as Iceland smashed COVID long before vaccines were available. But again, what's your point?

TheCount
06-24-2021, 01:05 PM
That's not what I said. But let me ask you straight up. Are you against the 1964 civil rights act yes or no? You've not come across as libertarian but rather contrarian. But maybe I misread you.

I'm against it for free association reasons.

To be fair, I'm not an absolutist or a purist. I accept that sometimes societies must make tradeoffs in order to achieve some desired result. The question being, of course, whether there is actually some justifiable interest in infringement on the free functioning of an economy.

With regard to the Civil Rights Act, I think that a reasonable argument could be made in either direction.

This cruise ship nonsense? I don't think there's a good, non-tribal argument for it.




The official CDC recommendations which shut down the country as most governors followed them.

That's entirely separate from the 95% vaccinated requirement placed on the cruise lines, which was their barrier to operation and which was in no way lifted or nullified by Florida's law.



It makes perfect business sense for a company, whether it agreed with vaccine mandates or not, to say "I don't want to be shut down by California again so I'll put in a vaccine mandate. Better to be safe than sorry."

It also makes perfect business sense to say "I don't want to have to cancel a cruise midway through because that's really fucking expensive, and I don't want my ship quarantined either, that's bad PR"




Just because you claim something doesn't exist doesn't make you right. There were federally encouraged lockdowns in most states.

The topic was cruises not lockdowns.




That's fine for them. So what are you complaining about? Federalism is working.

I shouldn't oppose impositions on freedoms by states because federalism?

Should I stop opposing impositions on freedoms by the federal government because people could just go to another country?



Who will be responsible for the people dying from vaccines?

Will or should?




Closing the borders under those circumstances was a great idea. And Iceland smashed COVID before vaccinations were around. So...what's your point? Mine was that lockdowns and masks were not required to smash COVID. Vaccines weren't either as Iceland smashed COVID long before vaccines were available.

They were very successful with mandatory contact tracing, isolation, and quarantine, yeah.


But again, what's your point?

I didn't bring it up, you did. What's your point?

I don't have a point. You're the one who brought it up.

jmdrake
06-24-2021, 01:17 PM
I'm against it for free association reasons.

To be fair, I'm not an absolutist or a purist. I accept that sometimes societies must make tradeoffs in order to achieve some desired result. The question being, of course, whether there is actually some justifiable interest in infringement on the free functioning of an economy.

Fair enough.



With regard to the Civil Rights Act, I think that a reasonable argument could be made in either direction.


Okay.



This cruise ship nonsense? I don't think there's a good, non-tribal argument for it.


It's not "tribal nonsense" at all. What "tribe" are you even talking about? There are black people and white people, democrats and republicans, gay and straight, fill-in-the-blank that are against vaccine passports and for good reason. None of this would have been an issue of the CDC hadn't pressured states to do lockdowns.

Edit: And how is it that you don't see the civil rights act as being "tribal?" The "white tribe" didn't want the "black tribe" to have the same access to society, public or private, as whites. The black tribe wanted full and equal access to everything, public or private. Isn't that tribalism by definition?



That's entirely separate from the 95% vaccinated requirement placed on the cruise lines, which was their barrier to operation and which was in no way lifted or nullified by Florida's law.


That's your entirely flawed opinion that you have not given an actual reason for. Here is what you are purposefully ignoring. The CDC started easing up on the lockdown recommendation based on people being vaccinated. And Dr. Fauci, the same person that pushed for the lockdowns, floated vaccine passports even before there were any announcements about progress on vaccines. So no. They are not "entirely separate." Not even kind of.




It also makes perfect business sense to say "I don't want to have to cancel a cruise midway through because that's really $#@!ing expensive, and I don't want my ship quarantined either, that's bad PR"


And who is going to quarantine the ship? Oh...that's right. The government that you are pretending doesn't exist.




The topic was cruises not lockdowns.


The lockdowns, that were lifted based on vaccine availability motivated the vaccine passports whether you are willing to admit that or not.


I shouldn't oppose impositions on freedoms by states because federalism?

You still have your freedom. You just said you can go to a different state and get on a cruise ship that has a vaccine passport. Is that what you want by the way? Do you have a fetish for making sure all of your cruise mates are vaccinated? If so, just say it.



Should I stop opposing impositions on freedoms by the federal government because people could just go to another country?


You should oppose the imposition of a vaccine passport. That's not freedom.




They were very successful with mandatory contact tracing, isolation, and quarantine, yeah.


They only isolated and quarantined those that were known to be sick or exposed to someone known to be sick. They didn't isolate or quarantine the healthy. And there were no lockdowns. No economic consequences that went along with lockdowns.



I didn't bring it up, you did. What's your point?


I already explained it. Reading comprehension is fundamental.

Edit: I will explain it one more time. The federal government, while floating the idea of "immunity passports", pushed the states to lockdown the entire economy. They were aided in this effort by the complicit media and big tech censorship. Any questioning of the Fauci narrative was squelched on the big tech platforms. But there was no need for the lockdowns. If the Iceland model had been followed, which maximized personal freedom while minimizing deaths, the idea of a "vaccine passport" really wouldn't have come up. Why would it with fewer deaths than even a mild flu season, which is what Iceland had?

jmdrake
06-24-2021, 01:25 PM
TheCount This is the origin of the "vaccine passport."

Problem, reaction, solution. The problem is that by April the entire economy was shut down largely on the word of federal bureaucrat Anthony Fauci. The "reaction" was "We need some 'safe' way to reopen." Rather than following sensible steps that Iceland was doing, quarantining the sick or those known to have been exposed, shutting down international travel, contact tracing and mass testing, Dr. Fauci floated the "solution" of vaccine passports. That was the goal all along.

Edit: And that's the point that you keep missing whether purposefully or through oversight. The federal government pushed the worst possible "solutions" to this "crisis." It would have been the same as if they had said "We aren't mandating that you keep black people off cruise ships. But it would be really helpful if you kept black people off cruise ships."


https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/10/fauci-coronavirus-immunity-cards-for-americans-are-being-discussed-178784

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, revealed Friday the federal government is considering issuing Americans certificates of immunity from the coronavirus, as the Trump administration works to better identify those who have been infected and restart the U.S. economy in the coming weeks.

“You know, that’s possible,” Fauci told CNN’s “New Day,” when asked whether he could imagine a time when people across the country carry such forms of identification.

“I mean, it’s one of those things that we talk about when we want to make sure that we know who the vulnerable people are and not,” he said. “This is something that’s being discussed. I think it might actually have some merit, under certain circumstances.”

The proposal is contingent upon the widespread deployment of antibody tests which the National Institutes of Health and the Food and Drug Administration are in the process of validating in the the U.S., Fauci said.

“Within a period of a week or so, we’re going to have a rather large number of tests that are available” to the public, he added.

The development of a comprehensive antibody testing system represents the next phase of the administration’s efforts to reopen the country and begin reintegrating essential workers such as health care providers and first responders back into society.

Although coronavirus testing thus far has been able to determine if an individual has an active infection, antibody tests report whether an asymptomatic person was previously infected but has since recovered, potentially allowing them to return to their jobs.

“As we look forward, as we get to the point of at least considering opening up the country, as it were, it’s very important to appreciate and to understand how much that virus has penetrated the society,” Fauci said.

Immunity certificates are already being implemented by researchers in Germany and have been floated by the United Kingdom and Italy, the most recent epicenter of the global outbreak in Europe.

In parts of China, citizens are required to display colored codes on their smartphones indicating their contagion risk. The controversial surveillance measure facilitated the end of the lockdown earlier this week of Wuhan, the city in China’s central province of Hubei where the novel coronavirus first emerged.

Asked Thursday about various methods of monitoring Americans who have come into contact with those who are infected, Dr. Robert Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said “people are looking at all the different modern technology that could be brought to bear to make contact tracing more efficient and effective.”

“Are there more, if you will, say, tech-savvy ways to be more comprehensive in contact tracing versus the old-fashioned way? You know, currently, these things are under aggressive evaluation,” Redfield told NPR.

TheCount
06-25-2021, 04:35 PM
None of this would have been an issue of the CDC hadn't pressured states to do lockdowns.

Everything about COVID has been politicized, and the political tribes involved count coup by parading their beliefs around, such as by wearing masks when they don't need them and not wearing them when they do.



Edit: And how is it that you don't see the civil rights act as being "tribal?"

Most people living today have not formed a personal identity around whether or not they agree with the civil rights act.

Nobody goes into a Piggly Wiggly and screams at the greeter about the civil rights act.



The "white tribe" didn't want the "black tribe" to have the same access to society, public or private, as whites. The black tribe wanted full and equal access to everything, public or private. Isn't that tribalism by definition?

Those weren't the tribes involved. Most of the people who voted for the civil rights act were white. Most of the people who support the civil rights act were and are white.



That's your entirely flawed opinion that you have not given an actual reason for.

It's my opinion that the CDC had a 95% vax requirement for cruises? How is that an opinion?

Here, since googling a 3-word phrase (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=cruise+ships+95%25) seems to be a challenge:



CDC: U.S. Cruises Can Restart This Summer — As Long As 95% Of Passengers Are Fully Vaccinated
https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/04/29/cdc-us-cruises-can-restart-this-summer---as-long-as-95-of-passengers-are-fully-vaccinated/?sh=6b9f4de85b89




Also included in the report are five points of clarification that give cruise lines better insight into the CDC's expectations for a restart:


Ships can bypass the required simulated test voyages carrying volunteers and jump to sailings with paying passengers if 98% of crew and 95% of passengers are fully vaccinated.


https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/04/29/report-cdc-says-cruise-ships-could-restart-mid-july-95-vaccinated-passengers



And who is going to quarantine the ship? Oh...that's right. The government that you are pretending doesn't exist.

Psst... more than one government is involved with most cruises.



You still have your freedom.

My freedom is unaffected. The cruise line's isn't.



You should oppose the imposition of a vaccine passport. That's not freedom.

I support the concept of a business requiring its customers to have been vaccinated in order to use their services.



Edit: I will explain it one more time. The federal government, while floating the idea of "immunity passports", pushed the states to lockdown the entire economy. They were aided in this effort by the complicit media and big tech censorship. Any questioning of the Fauci narrative was squelched on the big tech platforms. But there was no need for the lockdowns. If the Iceland model had been followed, which maximized personal freedom while minimizing deaths, the idea of a "vaccine passport" really wouldn't have come up. Why would it with fewer deaths than even a mild flu season, which is what Iceland had?

What does any of that have to do with whether or not a business can refuse service?

Here's the law:


A business entity,as defined in s. 768.38to include any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business operations in this state.

Do you or do you not think that a business should be able to do that?

RJB
06-25-2021, 04:46 PM
jmdrake

That was the final nail in the coffin.

These bans included all federal offshore leases, which is where 90 percent of all offshore drilling occurs.

My line of work was in a very specialized segment of drilling and production in ultra deepwater projects.

Spending on these wells is calculated in decades of time and billions of dollars.

The Biden ban, while now subject to court challenges, threw enough cold water on a sector that was, frankly, already suffering from Trump's opposing mandates opening millions of acres of much cheaper onshore lands to drill on (I don't complain as much about these because they were good for the country and for me and my fellow citizens), that interest and investing in new ultra deepwater projects essentially dried up overnight.

No sane CEO at BP or Exxon or Shell is going to commit billions of dollars in a US deepwater project now, if the permits or process can be shut down by a POTUS hostile to your business, simply by the stroke of a pen, like this or the Keystone pipeline.

So, that was all it took to shut down my little corner of that world, combined with a medical issue I'm healing from, it pushed me into what can only be called "early retirement".

Maybe things will change in a year or two, but I'm not optimistic, and there are some other outfits that are hiring, hedging that oil prices will climb so high we'll have no choice but to get back to drilling, so maybe that will be an option on a personal level.

Marxists want this because that's what Marxist revolutionaries do.

Idiot America wants it because they are so galactically stupid, they really do think you run a nation's energy grid on Unicorn farts and rainbows.

My brother is as cynical about politics as anyone and saw no point in voting. He is an engineer that does work with the pipelines and because of Biden has had to look for other work. He has changed his outlook a bit.

We are witnessing national suicide.

jmdrake
06-25-2021, 05:53 PM
Nothing worth reading.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how a 95% vaccination rate mandate for cruises could be enforced without a vaccine passport. I asked you that in a related thread. Until you answer that one question, it's clear you're just blowing smoke. Actually that's been clear for a while now.

TheCount
06-25-2021, 06:14 PM
I'm still waiting for you to explain how a 95% vaccination rate mandate for cruises could be enforced without a vaccine passport.

Right now, the cruises are relying on voluntary reporting combined with severe penalties for those who do not voluntarily report.

jmdrake
06-25-2021, 06:30 PM
Right now, the cruises are relying on voluntary reporting combined with severe penalties for those who do not voluntarily report.

Yeah.....that's a vaccine passport.

TheCount
06-26-2021, 02:27 AM
Yeah.....that's a vaccine passport.

Call it whatever you want.

A business asking its passengers for proof of vaccination before they get on the business' boats is not the same as a government mandated vaccine passport.

Pizza hut wanting my phone number in order for me to order carryout does not make my phone number a phone passport.

Anti Federalist
06-26-2021, 07:04 AM
My brother is as cynical about politics as anyone and saw no point in voting. He is an engineer that does work with the pipelines and because of Biden has had to look for other work. He has changed his outlook a bit.

We are witnessing national suicide.

Yes, we are, and the really troubling part is that roughly two thirds of the population want that.

If they fully seize and consolidate power, they will happily use that power to exterminate the remaining third of refuseniks.

That's you and me.

jmdrake
06-26-2021, 08:16 AM
Call it whatever you want.

A business asking its passengers for proof of vaccination before they get on the business' boats is not the same as a government mandated vaccine passport.

Pizza hut wanting my phone number in order for me to order carryout does not make my phone number a phone passport.

But the government mandating the business have a 95% vaccination rate requires businesses to inquire about vaccination rates. The Florida law bans businesses from inquiring about vaccination rates. Pretend what's going on isn't all you want.

TheCount
06-26-2021, 09:10 AM
But the government mandating the business have a 95% vaccination rate requires businesses to inquire about vaccination rates. The Florida law bans businesses from inquiring about vaccination rates. Pretend what's going on isn't all you want.

As I said, the Florida law doesn't make the federal mandate go away. It doesn't nullify it or even speak to it.


Both levels of government are busy trying to restrict businesses in different ways. There's no "freedom" happening there.

jmdrake
06-26-2021, 09:22 AM
As I said, the Florida law doesn't make the federal mandate go away.

That would be impossible for a single state to do.



It doesn't nullify it or even speak to it.


It does nullify it. No need to specifically speak about it because it's clear that's what's being addressed. USA Today gets it. You are just being obtuse.



Both levels of government are busy trying to restrict businesses in different ways. There's no "freedom" happening there.

One restriction is at odds with the other. That's a plus.

Matt Collins
05-13-2023, 02:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9-qPrOE_VM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9-qPrOE_VM

Anti Federalist
05-16-2023, 02:02 AM
Funny video, I like Remy and I like that song actually.

But it is misleading.

If that ship has cargo that was loaded onboard outside the US, there is nothing that would prevent them from mooring and unloading.

US vessel requirements only apply to cargo hauled directly from one US port to another US port




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9-qPrOE_VM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9-qPrOE_VM

Matt Collins
05-20-2023, 07:51 PM
https://youtu.be/Hoq_m3zSFNc


https://youtu.be/Hoq_m3zSFNc