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View Full Version : Eyes Wide Shut - "We Are In A Bad Spot"




sailingaway
10-23-2012, 04:31 PM
http://media.peakprosperity.com/images/Energy-Cliff-3-to-1.jpg

this reminded me of JoshLowry

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-23/eyes-wide-shut-we-are-bad-spot

Brian4Liberty
10-23-2012, 04:37 PM
Probably true:


The world around me makes a lot more sense when I think about it in terms of net energy and where we are in that story. Everywhere I go, I simply see oil, oil, and more oil, expressed in jets in the air, cars and trucks on the road, abundant and varied food types at every time of the year, and stores crammed with consumer goods from hither and yon. We truly live in the age of abundance.

Yet that abundance is heavily subsidized by petroleum as well as other fossil fuels.

Where the prior 150 years were defined by ever-increasing amounts of both gross and net energy, a remarkable experience unlikely to ever again be replicated, the next 150 will be defined by its exact opposite.

Travlyr
10-23-2012, 04:41 PM
Art Robinson - Common Sense 2012 (http://www.artforcongress.com/sites/default/files/common-sense-2012-6-18.pdf)


Energy should pose no problem at all for Americans. We have extensive technological knowledge for converting natural energy resources into usable energy, and we have such an abundance of those resources that we could not exhaust them in thousands of years.

Zippyjuan
10-23-2012, 04:43 PM
I agree with this:

The above chart reveals the world towards which we are rapidly moving with new petroleum finds being deeper, tighter, smaller, and generally more difficult to get to and extract, thereby offering lower net energy returns than in the past.
but don't think there will be quite as dramatic and sudden a decline as the chart seems to indicate. They will become more and more expensive (since they are more costly to get the next unit out of the ground or whereever and processed to where we can use it) and that will encourage alternatives which become more cost effective compared to things like oil but no individual source can replace all oil and the transition to new sources takes time and money. The higher price will also discourage the consumption and encourage conservation (the recession is helping with that today).

Deborah K
10-23-2012, 04:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKWPht3fU-o&feature=related

DamianTV
10-23-2012, 05:10 PM
Legalize Pot and turn Hemp into a Biofuel.

ninepointfive
10-23-2012, 05:22 PM
Legalize Pot and turn Hemp into a Biofuel.

much better return on investment, and for the environment than corn ethanol

Zippyjuan
10-23-2012, 05:33 PM
Last time I ran the numbers I came up with something like planting every inch of the US (using estimated yields for hemp and also assuming one barrel of oil produced from hemp would be the same as one barrel of petroleum oil) and we would still not be able to replace all of our current oil demands.

This site estimated it currently would cost about Canadian $1000 to produce one barrel: http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/1434/hemp-biodiesel-when-the-smoke-clears
That could come down as production is increased though.


If it were economically viable, Bobbee could get more excited about making biodiesel from hemp. Several years ago, when the Canadian hemp industry wasn't as well-established as it is now, Bobbee found himself with a surplus on his hands. A large hemp purchasing company went bankrupt, and suppliers like Bobbee were faced with low prices and few marketing options. The situation was particularly dire because hemp seed deteriorates after about a year in storage. The seed that Bobbee was stuck with was starting to go rancid. Since it could no longer be used in the food market, he took 20,000 liters (about 5,300 gallons) of hemp oil and turned it into biodiesel. Not only did the biodiesel have wonderful properties-better cloud point and cetane value than biodiesel made from canola or soy oil-its distinctive green color was a great marketing tool.

That experience turned Bobbee into a fan of hemp biodiesel. Still, he's a realist. As long as he and other hemp growers can get better prices from the food markets, they'll continue to pursue that avenue. At current values of CAN$1,000 for a 45-gallon barrel of hemp oil, it just wouldn't pay to make biodiesel out of the product. "It would be too cost prohibitive at this moment," he says.

Finally, there's the relatively low oil productivity of hemp. Hemp seed does have a relatively high oil content of about 33 percent, compared with canola at about 40 percent. However, it has a low seed per-acre yield. Typically, an acre of hemp yields about 700 pounds of seed, although some farmers have enjoyed production numbers as high as 1,200 pounds an acre in good years, Hanks says. Canola growers, on the other hand, can reap a crop of anywhere from 1,500 to 2,600 pounds an acre.

dannno
10-23-2012, 05:42 PM
I thought this was going to be about the Stanley Kubrick film about the Illuminati (the epic Director suffered an untimely death about a week or two before the film was released, I'd like to know what they took out).

DamianTV
10-23-2012, 05:49 PM
The Processing Facilities would have a huge impact on the initial costs, but once those facilities were in place and they were paid off, the cost to produce Hemp Biofuel would come down, hopefully by a proportional ammt. Whatever energy source we end up using, you can be guaranteed one thing; Perpetual Dependancy on someone to provide that source of energy.

dannno
10-23-2012, 05:52 PM
Last time I ran the numbers I came up with something like planting every inch of the US (using estimated yields for hemp and also assuming one barrel of oil produced from hemp would be the same as one barrel of petroleum oil) and we would still not be able to replace all of our current oil demands.

This site estimated it currently would cost about Canadian $1000 to produce one barrel: http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/1434/hemp-biodiesel-when-the-smoke-clears
That could come down as production is increased though.

I'd have to look more closely at the numbers. Hemp is very highly regulated and restricted in Canada. Hemp requires very little water and fertilizers compared to other competitors. In a free market where hemp producers can compete on price and as better technology comes about to process the hemp, I'll bet prices would be a small fraction of what they are currently.

angelatc
10-23-2012, 05:53 PM
I agree with this:

but don't think there will be quite as dramatic and sudden a decline as the chart seems to indicate. They will become more and more expensive (since they are more costly to get the next unit out of the ground or whereever and processed to where we can use it) and that will encourage alternatives which become more cost effective compared to things like oil but no individual source can replace all oil and the transition to new sources takes time and money. The higher price will also discourage the consumption and encourage conservation (the recession is helping with that today).

Sure, but the higher price will also encourage increased efficiency.

Zippyjuan
10-23-2012, 06:19 PM
Yield is important. This article http://hempsteadprojectheart.com/hempstead-wildseed/ claims six barrels of oil from one acre. http://hempsteadprojectheart.com/hempstead-wildseed/

Cold pressing of hemp seeds yields over 300 gallons of oil and 6,000 pounds of
high protein hemp meal. That is 6 barrels of oil produced per acre, which is
extremely healthy while fresh, and 3 tons of high protein food per acre. This
oil production rate is three times more productive than the next most
productive seed oil crops: soybeans, sunflower seeds and canola/rapeseed, which
produce 100 to 115 gallons of oil per acre. Hemp seed oil will be the most
productive source of biodiesel fuel when legalized, and it is also a nontoxic
resource for plastics and many other synthesized products.
One barrel is 42 gallons and the US consumes 20 million barrels of petroleum oil every day. That means we need 4.2 million acres every day times 365 days is 1.5 bilion acres of hemp planted if we want to replace all our current demands. That is more than half the total acrage of the the entire US (2.3 billion acres with 587 million currently being cropland) and twice the land currently dedicated to crops. http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-information-bulletin/eib14.aspx

ninepointfive
10-23-2012, 06:25 PM
Zippy - do you know the cost of inputs into corn ethanol fuel in comparison? Minus the subsidy

Travlyr
10-23-2012, 06:27 PM
Yield is important. This article http://hempsteadprojectheart.com/hempstead-wildseed/ claims six barrels of oil from one acre. http://hempsteadprojectheart.com/hempstead-wildseed/

One barrel is 42 gallons and the US consumes 20 million barrels of petroleum oil every day. That means we need 4.2 million acres every day times 365 days is 1.5 bilion acres of hemp planted if we want to replace all our current demands. That is more than half the total acrage of the the entire US (2.3 billion acres with 587 million currently being cropland- this would require twice that amount).

There are plenty of energy sources. Hemp does not have to replace the entire petroleum industry... only supplement it. There is NO excuse to keep the most green plant known on Earth illegal to grow and use.


Art Robinson - Common Sense (http://www.artforcongress.com/sites/default/files/common-sense-2012-6-18.pdf)

For example, American coal, oil, natural gas, and methane clathrate resources are vast. These four forms of hydrocarbon energy are industrially inter-convertible, so we can use the least expensive to produce the more expensive. here are today industrial plants converting coal to oil as the Germans did during World War II, and plants converting natural gas into oil. Methane clathrates (natural gas in special forms of ice in the ocean) are so abundant that they exceed all oil, coal, and natural gas combined. Methods of recovering methane from clathrates are just being developed. Our hydrocarbon natural resources are essentially inexhaustible.

Likewise, our uranium and thorium reserves can fuel our nuclear power industry for thousands of years. Wind, sun, and hydroelectric resources are also extensive. We only need to use those technologies that are most practical and economical – a choice that can best and most wisely be made by free people competing and using their talents and abilities, and certainly not by Washington politicians.Yet our energy industry, hobbled by the tentacles of big government, cannot now even supply our own needs. We have been importing 30% of our energy. With our economy in a slump, it is now 20%.

dannno
10-23-2012, 06:34 PM
Yield is important. This article http://hempsteadprojectheart.com/hempstead-wildseed/ claims six barrels of oil from one acre. http://hempsteadprojectheart.com/hempstead-wildseed/

One barrel is 42 gallons and the US consumes 20 million barrels of petroleum oil every day. That means we need 4.2 million acres every day times 365 days is 1.5 bilion acres of hemp planted if we want to replace all our current demands. That is more than half the total acrage of the the entire US (2.3 billion acres with 587 million currently being cropland) and twice the land currently dedicated to crops. http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-information-bulletin/eib14.aspx



George Washington, obviously knew that Hemp, unlike other crops, could be grown just about everywhere, even on otherwise unproductive areas...


The truth is that hemp once grew and still does grow wild in many parts of the country.

If hemp was growing on 30% of the continent and it was self sufficient so that the energy used to harvest the hemp and turn it into fuel was much less than what you got out of it, you could grow a very large supply. You could rotate food crops in because hemp is a nitrogen fixer. Who knows what the free market would come up with.

If we were to increase the amount of alternative energies that we use, implement more efficient production and transportation methods such as mag-lev trains and use local fossil fuels during the transition then I think we could have a relatively energy intensive and productive future.

Zippyjuan
10-23-2012, 06:35 PM
There is no single source which can replace everything we get from petroleum. If we want to end the use of oil, it will take many different things. I would agree that corn is not a good alternative- it uses almost as much energy to produce the energy from corn in the form of ethanol as it produces. In my brief research I found that per acre, soy beans actually give more oil than either hemp or corn (hemp seeds have more oil but the plants pruduce much fewer seeds in volume per acre). Another problem with trying to produce a lot of our energy from biofuels is that it is often as a trade-off against producing foods and that drives up the cost of them. There aren't cheap and simple solutions. Using plant wastes means not using those wastes for compost and returning the nutrients to the ground which means more feritilzers needed (and most of our fertilizers are made using petroleum products).

GunnyFreedom
10-23-2012, 07:15 PM
Legalize Pot and turn Hemp into a Biofuel.

Look into Sourgum Bicolor. I 100% believe that we need to legalize industrial hemp, but the finest and easiest and most energy dense biomass for biofuel available int he world today is not hemp, it's sourgum bicolor.

The added benefit is that any biomass that is perfect for biofuel will end up as a GMO, and I do NOT WANT GMO hemp infecting cannabis sativa via cross pollination.

So I admit that I have backed way way off of selling hemp as a good biofuel for two reasons. One, sourgum bicolor is actually way better, and two, I DO NOT WANT to see GMO hemp scattering it's Frankenstein pollen all over America, which if hemp becomes a primary biofuel it WILL be turned into a GMO.

Travlyr
10-23-2012, 07:23 PM
SORGHUM GENOME (http://www.mgel.msstate.edu/sorghum.htm)


Sorghum bicolor (grain sorghum) is a staple food for millions of people in the semi-arid tropics (in particular Africa and India) and is an important feed crop in the U.S. S. bicolor is similar to maize in nutritional content, but it is higher in protein and lower in fat content.

More at link (http://www.mgel.msstate.edu/sorghum.htm).

GunnyFreedom
10-23-2012, 07:31 PM
SORGHUM GENOME (http://www.mgel.msstate.edu/sorghum.htm)



More at link (http://www.mgel.msstate.edu/sorghum.htm).

Thanks for the information!

I went in to the NCGA in 2011 with the intent to legalize hemp for biofuel, and cobbled together a cabal of experts who informed me that Sorghum Bicolor is the most energy-dense, easiest to convert, and lowest input to output biomass for fuel that we currently know of in the world. The have a machine already made at NCSU that you just stuff biomass into a tube at one end, and fuel you can pump right into your gas tank comes out the other end. You can tune it for several different formats of fuel, or a base for ordinary gasoline motors.

That's when it struck me like a bell that if you start mass producing hemp for biofuel, it WILL be genetically modified. And I really don't want GMO cannabis pollen flooding American air.

GunnyFreedom
10-23-2012, 07:37 PM
Also:

Sweet Sorghum Ideal for Biofuel (http://www.nariphaltan.org/seedworld.htm)

Sweet Sorghum for Biofuel Production (http://www.extension.org/pages/26634/sweet-sorghum-for-biofuel-production)

And here are a variety of dissertations (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Sorghum+Bicolor+biofuel&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=JkWHUJClL8aQ0QHhgoGADQ&ved=0CB0QgQMwAA) available on the subject if you want to pay for them.

Travlyr
10-23-2012, 07:46 PM
Thanks for the information!

I went in to the NCGA in 2011 with the intent to legalize hemp for biofuel, and cobbled together a cabal of experts who informed me that Sorghum Bicolor is the most energy-dense, easiest to convert, and lowest input to output biomass for fuel that we currently know of in the world. The have a machine already made at NCSU that you just stuff biomass into a tube at one end, and fuel you can pump right into your gas tank comes out the other end. You can tune it for several different formats of fuel, or a base for ordinary gasoline motors.

That's when it struck me like a bell that if you start mass producing hemp for biofuel, it WILL be genetically modified. And I really don't want GMO cannabis pollen flooding American air.

Yeah, there is no need to contaminate the good stuff. We raised grain sorghum when I was young. We fed it to our cattle. We only did that for a couple of years, then we sold all our cattle.

This is good information and I'm glad you brought it up. Industrial hemp has so many good qualities. If making bio-fuel is not its forte, then perhaps it can settle in as a raw material with many other useful purposes.

ninepointfive
10-23-2012, 08:37 PM
That's when it struck me like a bell that if you start mass producing hemp for biofuel, it WILL be genetically modified. And I really don't want GMO cannabis pollen flooding American air.

but the females don't produce pollen - and you'd want females for the seeds/oil.

bicolor sounds interesting - never heard of it before

idiom
10-23-2012, 08:47 PM
Also GMO pollen is usually inert.

Its a copy-protection scheme.

thoughtomator
10-23-2012, 09:19 PM
The future will belong to thorium reactors - nuclear power without nuclear waste and without weaponizable byproducts.

GunnyFreedom
10-23-2012, 09:47 PM
The future will belong to thorium reactors - nuclear power without nuclear waste and without weaponizable byproducts.

This should be true, but it's going to be a lot harder for the 'big boys' to profit from, which is why the technology is not already ubiquitous. With thorium reactors you could actually build a nuclear power generator at neighborhood or even individual home levels. Thorium reactors will make it far too easy for individuals to go off the grid, which is why it isn't already happening. This has been possible for some 20 years now already.

Travlyr
10-24-2012, 04:56 AM
This should be true, but it's going to be a lot harder for the 'big boys' to profit from, which is why the technology is not already ubiquitous. With thorium reactors you could actually build a nuclear power generator at neighborhood or even individual home levels. Thorium reactors will make it far too easy for individuals to go off the grid, which is why it isn't already happening. This has been possible for some 20 years now already.

What do thorium reactors, industrial hemp, and sound money have in common? They all help to free people and get them off the grid. Legalize them.

A Nuclear Reactor in Every Home (http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2006/10/a-nuclear-reactor-in-every-home/)

Thorium (http://www.thorium.tv/en/thorium_reactor/thorium_reactor_1.php)

Tod
10-24-2012, 05:49 AM
http://media.peakprosperity.com/images/Energy-Cliff-3-to-1.jpg

this reminded me of JoshLowry

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-23/eyes-wide-shut-we-are-bad-spot

IF that is true, why can a gallon of gasoline be purchased for the same silver dollar that it could be decades ago? Shouldn't it be much more expensive in real terms because of the change in ratio along the horizontal axis? Is it because silver has followed a similar graph?

Aratus
10-24-2012, 06:50 AM
Legalize Pot and turn Hemp into a Biofuel.

yep... lets all make the crazywackytobaccy joints three or ten times as pricey
as our cancer sticks... lewts have kudzu and hemp be bio-fuel and not hog corn

Travlyr
10-24-2012, 08:34 PM
A thorium reactor in every home.