PDA

View Full Version : Why aren't more people libertarians?




juliusaugustus
10-22-2012, 05:00 PM
Libertarianism is always seen as this strange or crazy idea. MY parents even call it anti-social. Why do people feel the need to attack libertarianism? what exactly about is flawed. I want to know what libertarians think about it.

Anti Federalist
10-22-2012, 05:12 PM
Allow me a shameless cross post to answer:


And we keep coming back to this.

But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part.

We think, that all we need to do is "educate" enough people, and a point of critical mass will be reached, and we'll turn this whole thing around.

We are dead wrong.

People do not want freedom.

They never have wanted freedom.

They want what people since the beginning of time have wanted: to be fed, entertained and exercise petty power over their fellow man.

We are the minority, and always will be the minority, and the only time that freedom briefly flourishes, are the times when we have asserted our right to be free and dragged the rest of wretched humanity along for the ride, kicking and screaming the whole time.

This is the only point that I disagree with Ron Paul: freedom is not popular.

It must be seized, and vigorously protected, by force, to last.

A remnant that lacks the will to do that will almost certainly be subjected to slavery and oppression.

heavenlyboy34
10-22-2012, 05:12 PM
Liberty is difficult. Slavery is easy. Average people tend to prefer the easy route, especially when they've had an easy life.

heavenlyboy34
10-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Allow me a shameless cross psot to answer:


And we keep coming back to this.

But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part.

We think, that all we need to do is "educate" enough people, and a point of critical mass will be reached, and we'll turn this whole thing around.

We are dead wrong.

People do not want freedom.

They never have wanted freedom.

They want what people since the beginning of time have wanted: to be fed, entertained and exercise petty power over their fellow man.

We are the minority, and always will be the minority, and the only time that freedom briefly flourishes, are the times when we have asserted our right to be free and dragged the rest of wretched humanity along for the ride, kicking and screaming the whole time.

This is the only point that I disagree with Ron Paul: freedom is not popular.

It must be seized, and vigorously protected, by force, to last.

A remnant that lacks the will to do that will almost certainly be subjected to slavery and oppression.
This is also an excellent answer^^

farreri
10-22-2012, 05:21 PM
Personally because I think a lot of Libertarians do a piss-poor job of explaining it. That's just my opinion.

libertyfanatic
10-22-2012, 05:22 PM
Most people have never even heard of libertarianism.

Travlyr
10-22-2012, 05:23 PM
But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part.


Sorry, but I just can't buy this line. I did not know what was going on until 2007 and I was looking for correct information. When I learned about Ron Paul, I started reading and researching everything he wrote and talked about. In "The Revolution: A Manifesto" I learned about Murray Rothbard's "A Mystery of Banking" I read "A Mystery of Banking" and my eyes were opened wide. I learned what sound money is and I learned that sound money is the key to limiting big government expansion. Then I read Eustace Mullins "The Secrets of the Federal Reserve" and I started reading Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. and have not turned my back on sound monetary principles since.

IMO, the reason more people are not libertarians is because they do not teach libertarian philosophy or sound monetary policy in government schools, or in the media, or ... really not anywhere. Most people do not like to do their own research, so they go with the flow. "Follow The Leader" They go with the government propaganda promoted in school, media, games, Hollywood, and the church.

TheTexan
10-22-2012, 05:24 PM
Personally because I think a lot of Libertarians do a piss-poor job of explaining it. That's just my opinion.

Even if you explain it well, they will nod their head in agreement, say "oh yes I agree completely", then 2 seconds later "oh look a squirrel!" and they forgot everything you just said.

They don't want to understand it. They will ignore you as best as they can, and if they accidentally start to make sense of what you're saying, and they start to see their chains, their instant reaction is to either get offended or change the subject.

dbill27
10-22-2012, 05:24 PM
Libertarianism is the philosophy of the individual. Man evolved as collectivists, tribal societies that worshipped altruism. Libertarians are ahead of the curve, we are the enlightened.

farreri
10-22-2012, 05:26 PM
Even if you explain it well, they will nod their head in agreement, say "oh yes I agree completely", then 2 seconds later "oh look a squirrel!" and they forgot everything you just said.

They don't want to understand it. They will ignore you as best as they can, and if they accidentally start to make sense of what you're saying, and they start to see their chains, their instant reaction is to either get offended or change the subject.
Well when you grow up being conditioned that you need government to protect you, it's hard to be conditioned out of that belief. Took me a couple of years.

TheTexan
10-22-2012, 05:27 PM
Sorry, but I just can't buy this line. I did not know what was going on until 2007 and I was looking for correct information. When I learned about Ron Paul, I started reading and researching everything he wrote and talked about. In "The Revolution: A Manifesto" I learned about Murray Rothbard's "A Mystery of Banking" I read "A Mystery of Banking" and my eyes were opened wide. I learned what sound money is and I learned that sound money is the key to limiting big government expansion. Then I read Eustace Mullins "The Secrets of the Federal Reserve" and I started reading Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. and have not turned my back on sound monetary principles since.

A desire for liberty is something a person either has, or doesn't. It's sometimes buried deep, but most people don't have it at all.


IMO, the reason more people are not libertarians is because they do not teach libertarian philosophy or sound monetary policy in government schools, or in the media, or ... really not anywhere. Most people do not like to do their own research, so they go with the flow. "Follow The Leader" They go with the government propaganda promoted in school, media, games, Hollywood, and the church.

You're half right. Part of it is how they were raised. Schools and so forth. At least I hope so. Regarding nature vs nurture... if it's nurture, at least maybe our great grandchildren have hope. If it's nature... humanity is fucked. Will destroy itself within the next 200 years.

Anti Federalist
10-22-2012, 05:28 PM
Sorry, but I just can't buy this line. I did not know what was going on until 2007 and I was looking for correct information. When I learned about Ron Paul, I started reading and researching everything he wrote and talked about. In "The Revolution: A Manifesto" I learned about Murray Rothbard's "A Mystery of Banking" I read "A Mystery of Banking" and my eyes were opened wide. I learned what sound money is and I learned that sound money is the key to limiting big government expansion. Then I read Eustace Mullins "The Secrets of the Federal Reserve" and I started reading Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. and have not turned my back on sound monetary principles since.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if the education efforts take hold then.

My review of humanity's history suggests otherwise to me.


IMO, the reason more people are not libertarians is because they do not teach libertarian philosophy or sound monetary policy in government schools, or in the media, or ... really not anywhere. Most people do not like to do their own research, so they go with the flow. "Follow The Leader" They go with the government propaganda promoted in school, media, games, Hollywood, and the church.

You'll get no argument from me on that score.

Compulsory government schools were designed and implemented for that exact purpose: fealty and loyalty to the state and the established norms.

dbill27
10-22-2012, 05:29 PM
Bill Maher and Glenn Beck are libertarians. Maybe there's more of them than we realize.

TheTexan
10-22-2012, 05:31 PM
Bill Maher and Glenn Beck are libertarians. Maybe there's more of them than we realize.

Ha, ha. Sigh

NewRightLibertarian
10-22-2012, 05:33 PM
I'd say the main reason is that they've been brainwashed by the state. They're too propagandized to realize how beneficial the libertarian reforms would be. To make matters worse, the state has also bought off much of the public with stolen money.

presence
10-22-2012, 05:33 PM
Most people already practice libertarianism. A few are selected from time to time and battered to keep the movement underground.


MY parents even call it anti-social.

Next time they're driving over the speed limit; tell them to stop being so damn anti-social. That'll start a brush fire.

Czolgosz
10-22-2012, 05:36 PM
Allow me a shameless cross post to answer:


And we keep coming back to this.

But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part.

We think, that all we need to do is "educate" enough people, and a point of critical mass will be reached, and we'll turn this whole thing around.

We are dead wrong.

People do not want freedom.

They never have wanted freedom.

They want what people since the beginning of time have wanted: to be fed, entertained and exercise petty power over their fellow man.

We are the minority, and always will be the minority, and the only time that freedom briefly flourishes, are the times when we have asserted our right to be free and dragged the rest of wretched humanity along for the ride, kicking and screaming the whole time.

This is the only point that I disagree with Ron Paul: freedom is not popular.

It must be seized, and vigorously protected, by force, to last.

A remnant that lacks the will to do that will almost certainly be subjected to slavery and oppression.


+7.62x39 (again) :D

farreri
10-22-2012, 05:36 PM
And it doesn't help when you got LINO groups (like the Republican Party) preaching "small government," but then outspending the Democrats after being elected.

Anti Federalist
10-22-2012, 05:36 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/image001.jpg

cjm
10-22-2012, 05:39 PM
Why aren't more people libertarians?

Television.

cajuncocoa
10-22-2012, 05:43 PM
Bill Maher and Glenn Beck are libertarians. Maybe there's more of them than we realize.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t270/cajuncocoa/Emoticons/Rofl2-1.gif

Lucille
10-22-2012, 05:45 PM
The Libertarian Mind
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-libertarian-mind/


The political psychologist Jonathan Haidt and several collaborators have published a new study of libertarians. Using data collected from 11,994 volunteer respondents, the study finds that self-identified libertarians have a distinct moral code based on the priority of freedom, are inclined toward abstract reasoning rather than emotional response, and value individuality over community.

These conclusions won’t be news to anyone who is a libertarian, knows libertarians, or follows their discussions–which I assume to include most of TAC‘s readers. What’s interesting is the way that they complicate some common assumptions about how we relate to each other as political animals:

First, as Haidt argues at length in The Righteous Mind, these data suggest that people don’t simply choose their political beliefs (see Daniel Flynn’s review from the print magazine here). Rather, their political commitments choose them–or, more accurately, appeal to preexisting intuitions and dispositions.

That’s consistent with experience. As many of us have learned in long and fruitless conversations, liberals, conservatives, and libertarians don’t just disagree about “the issues”. They have very different views of the world, which can lead them to draw different conclusions even from uncontroversial facts.

Second, then, the study implies that consensus is far more elusive than many political theorists hope. It doesn’t matter whether we all talk to each other calmly and respectfully, without the influence of pundits, attack adds, and other alleged distractions. We’re unlikely to agree because we’re just not the same kinds of people.

That doesn’t mean discussion is pointless. But it does suggest that we shouldn’t expect to convince each other, even though we may be able to agree on particular positions for different reasons.

Finally, Haidt’s analysis challenges the assumption that political positions can be placed on a flat left-to-right axis. Libertarians, as they appear here, aren’t somewhere “between” liberals and conservatives. They have an distinctive outlook defined by an independent cluster of intuitions and dispositions.

The reason that libertarianism isn’t better represented in electoral politics is that this psychological profile seems to be relatively rare. In Haidt’s study, only 7.6 percent of respondents identified as libertarians. Because it was based on a web questionnaire, the sample may not be representative. But it seems as likely to overestimate the proportion of libertarians as to underestimate it. My unscientific impression is that libertarians have a considerably larger presence online than in the general population.

Libertarians sometimes argue that they’d attract more support if they were only given the chance to explain themselves properly. And Haidt’s research supports their conviction that they’ve been neglected or misunderstood. But it also suggests that libertarians shouldn’t hope to make many converts. The libertarian mind may be too uncommon to have much influence in a democracy.

Czolgosz
10-22-2012, 05:57 PM
The Libertarian Mind
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-libertarian-mind/

Spot on.

jmdrake
10-22-2012, 06:23 PM
Because libertarians do a horrid job of marketing themselves by putting all kinds of conditions on libertarianism. (i.e. "Unless you are pro choice/pro life you aren't a libertarian"). At least that's what I see here at RPF constantly.

Anti Federalist
10-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Because libertarians do a horrid job of marketing themselves by putting all kinds of conditions on libertarianism. (i.e. "Unless you are pro choice/pro life you aren't a libertarian"). At least that's what I see here at RPF constantly.

What's to sell?

Rule 1 - Mind your business.

Rule 2 - Keep your hands to yourself.

awake
10-22-2012, 06:28 PM
Honestly, there are more libertarians than there ever have been. There were only a handful of notable libertarians 40 years ago. Now there are whole movements. It is a slow progress, undeniably, but so is anything worth many generations in the making.

This is a war between extremely small minorities on each end of the spectrum. It is a war on the battlefield of ideas. It is the greatest struggle of all time: good vs. evil. The idea of slavery has been continuously beat back to make way for the ideas of liberty. As hopeless as it looks from the perspective of living inside current events, history has revealed a crystal clear picture: liberty has been making a steady march towards the walls and gates of the violent ruling elite. This is the reason, I believe, behind the push for world government: national strongholds are not enough to contain the people and their natural desire for wanting more or better, even though they might not recognize it as the quest for liberty per say.

There are elite on both sides who influence the rest. It is a war for the minds of the in between.

It does not matter that people don't embrace libertarianism. All that matters are that the ideas can and do make progress in the minds of other people. The term Liberal used to refer to the early liberty fore-bearers until it was infected by those who wanted to put a stop to it...Their work for liberty was not enjoyed by them but is indispensable by current generations. We are doing as they did for the future generations.

WE ARE WINING but its like watching the grass grow. The grass does grow.

juliusaugustus
10-22-2012, 06:39 PM
Bill Maher and Glenn Beck are libertarians. Maybe there's more of them than we realize.

Don't forget john stossel.

jmdrake
10-22-2012, 06:50 PM
What's to sell?

Rule 1 - Mind your business.

Rule 2 - Keep your hands to yourself.

I agree. But then I hear "libertarians" tell me that if I'm not for the state getting into parent business and telling them to keep their spanking hands to themselves I'm not a libertarian. It gets sooooo confusing.

jmdrake
10-22-2012, 06:53 PM
Bill Maher and Glenn Beck are libertarians. Maybe there's more of them than we realize.

Is Bill Maher from the Cornell West "increase taxes on rich people" wing of the libertarians?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR4yaEVYvaE

That said, I love me some Cornell West. And he does respect Ron Paul.

AGRP
10-22-2012, 06:54 PM
There's a lot of money at stake by outlawing virtually free things that have a high value. So much money that people with power will control means of communication and education to brainwash, commerce to control sales and distribution, and freedom to control action. Cant be growing or selling that herb. Cant be milking or selling that milk. Cant be gathering or storing that water.

Anti Federalist
10-22-2012, 07:04 PM
I agree. But then I hear "libertarians" tell me that if I'm not for the state getting into parent business and telling them to keep their spanking hands to themselves I'm not a libertarian. It gets sooooo confusing.

Sound like a violation of rule 1

paulbot24
10-22-2012, 07:14 PM
If they were just given their liberties back and set free from our tyrannical government, many would turn around, look back at their slave quarters, and say, "So they're kicking us out of our homes?"

specsaregood
10-22-2012, 08:06 PM
Because libertarians do a horrid job of marketing themselves by putting all kinds of conditions on libertarianism. (i.e. "Unless you are pro choice/pro life you aren't a libertarian"). At least that's what I see here at RPF constantly.

I was going to say that many vocal libertarians come across as utter assholes; but I'll go with what you said.

roho76
10-22-2012, 08:29 PM
I think all this fake food has made it so we can't pay attention long enough to understand basic math, so politics outside of the "Red team/Blue team" soundbite mentality, is not widely practiced.

NIU Students for Liberty
10-22-2012, 08:36 PM
Is Bill Maher from the Cornell West "increase taxes on rich people" wing of the libertarians?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR4yaEVYvaE

That said, I love me some Cornell West. And he does respect Ron Paul.

At least West tends to see Obama and the Democratic establishment for who they really are. Maher on the other hand panders to that crowd and takes the easy way out by targeting his humor against conservatives (not that they don't deserve to be the subject of ridicule but it's just too easy).

robert68
10-22-2012, 08:37 PM
..

Proph
10-22-2012, 09:04 PM
Allow me a shameless cross post to answer:


And we keep coming back to this.

But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part.

We think, that all we need to do is "educate" enough people, and a point of critical mass will be reached, and we'll turn this whole thing around.

We are dead wrong.

People do not want freedom.

They never have wanted freedom.

They want what people since the beginning of time have wanted: to be fed, entertained and exercise petty power over their fellow man.

We are the minority, and always will be the minority, and the only time that freedom briefly flourishes, are the times when we have asserted our right to be free and dragged the rest of wretched humanity along for the ride, kicking and screaming the whole time.

This is the only point that I disagree with Ron Paul: freedom is not popular.

It must be seized, and vigorously protected, by force, to last.

A remnant that lacks the will to do that will almost certainly be subjected to slavery and oppression.

It has nothing to do with people, already struggling to make ends meet, being deprived of the luxury of carrying on discussions (or researching) like this, eh? In that respect, it actually benefits those in power to keep making things worse, so that the populace remains ignorant. There's no time to figure out how to make things better for yourself (let alone, humanity) if you're working 2-3 jobs and spend your spare time eating and/or sleeping (both basic necessities for survival).

This actually brings up an interesting point; these are the people who need help the most, but are least likely to hear the message (due to the lack of spare time). How do we get the message across to these individuals? But, I digress.

The only reason I'm writing this is that you seem demoralized and/or frustrated. I've felt like posting rants similar to yours before, but refrained because negativity is contagious. Just as you felt the need to cross-post, I feel the need to post this, because I think more people need to hear it; especially with the "We must take action!" rhetoric I've been seeing in a few places:

Isn't taxation just a form of modern-day slavery? Slavery, at the time before the Civil War, was a necessary evil. Do you think it would have still existed, as technology became more advanced? I don't. The "necessary" bit would become smaller and smaller, until eventually, slavery is just evil. I think the same would/will eventually happen with taxation and (big) government.

I propose we just wait it out. By setting a good example, as Paul has done himself, you become the light that guides the others. The shittier things get, the brighter your ideas become. It's a battle of perception, and this defeatist "poor us!" (porous!) mentality does NOT help the cause. Inform, sure, but most won't believe or understand you until they experience it themselves.


Take consolation in the fact that big government is its own biggest threat, not us. What's that old saying...?

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Wait...what? So...

Bah! Fuck it!


But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part.

We think, that all we need to do is "educate" enough people, and a point of critical mass will be reached, and we'll turn this whole thing around.

We are dead wrong.

Do they? Check out Robin Koerner's article "Love and Sales: The Thankless Art of Political Persuasion" if you haven't already:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robin-koerner/love-and-sales-the-thankl_b_1376615.html


Nevertheless, I notice that many of my political brethren advocate for our favored candidate and passionately held beliefs by trying to show our opponents they they are wrong. It never works - even when they are wrong -- because being right is not the same thing as winning an argument. And even more importantly, winning an argument is not the same thing as winning a supporter.

Wow. This post ended up being much longer than I initially intended. If nothing else, maybe it can be used as a sleep-aid? If you legitimately reached the bottom, congratulations! Level up! Hai faive!

cajuncocoa
10-22-2012, 09:09 PM
The thing I keep hearing a lot from friends and family is, they like the ideas, but they don't think it would work.
I keep telling them we'll never know unless we try, and what we've been doing for the past....well, forever, hasn't worked either.
Then they usually just nod politely and change the subject. *smh*

LibForestPaul
10-22-2012, 09:18 PM
Allow me a shameless cross post to answer:


And we keep coming back to this.

But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part.

We think, that all we need to do is "educate" enough people, and a point of critical mass will be reached, and we'll turn this whole thing around.

We are dead wrong.

People do not want freedom.

They never have wanted freedom.

They want what people since the beginning of time have wanted: to be fed, entertained and exercise petty power over their fellow man.

We are the minority, and always will be the minority, and the only time that freedom briefly flourishes, are the times when we have asserted our right to be free and dragged the rest of wretched humanity along for the ride, kicking and screaming the whole time.

This is the only point that I disagree with Ron Paul: freedom is not popular.

It must be seized, and vigorously protected, by force, to last.

A remnant that lacks the will to do that will almost certainly be subjected to slavery and oppression.

Not 100% agree. There is also much fear in people. This includes fear of reprisal, as well as fear of liberty, self-reliance.

LibForestPaul
10-22-2012, 09:20 PM
Sorry, but I just can't buy this line.

Do you really think the elderly want their monthly shakedown of the young to stop?
Do you really think 55 year old retired cops want their pensions to stop?
Do you really think some CEO wants to compete on merit and not use the courts against his competitor?

jmdrake
10-22-2012, 09:23 PM
+rep. Worth the wait. Especially this part. winning an argument is not the same thing as winning a supporter.


It has nothing to do with people, already struggling to make ends meet, being deprived of the luxury of carrying on discussions (or researching) like this, eh? In that respect, it actually benefits those in power to keep making things worse, so that the populace remains ignorant. There's no time to figure out how to make things better for yourself (let alone, humanity) if you're working 2-3 jobs and spend your spare time eating and/or sleeping (both basic necessities for survival).

This actually brings up an interesting point; these are the people who need help the most, but are least likely to hear the message (due to the lack of spare time). How do we get the message across to these individuals? But, I digress.

The only reason I'm writing this is that you seem demoralized and/or frustrated. I've felt like posting rants similar to yours before, but refrained because negativity is contagious. Just as you felt the need to cross-post, I feel the need to post this, because I think more people need to hear it; especially with the "We must take action!" rhetoric I've been seeing in a few places:

Isn't taxation just a form of modern-day slavery? Slavery, at the time before the Civil War, was a necessary evil. Do you think it would have still existed, as technology became more advanced? I don't. The "necessary" bit would become smaller and smaller, until eventually, slavery is just evil. I think the same would/will eventually happen with taxation and (big) government.

I propose we just wait it out. By setting a good example, as Paul has done himself, you become the light that guides the others. The shittier things get, the brighter your ideas become. It's a battle of perception, and this defeatist "poor us!" (porous!) mentality does NOT help the cause. Inform, sure, but most won't believe or understand you until they experience it themselves.


Take consolation in the fact that big government is its own biggest threat, not us. What's that old saying...?

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Wait...what? So...

Bah! Fuck it!



Do they? Check out Robin Koerner's article "Love and Sales: The Thankless Art of Political Persuasion" if you haven't already:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robin-koerner/love-and-sales-the-thankl_b_1376615.html



Wow. This post ended up being much longer than I initially intended. If nothing else, maybe it can be used as a sleep-aid? If you legitimately reached the bottom, congratulations! Level up! Hai faive!

Root
10-22-2012, 09:37 PM
Libertarians don't give people stuff.

Keith and stuff
10-22-2012, 09:39 PM
The vast majority of people are very much against freedom.

Czolgosz
10-22-2012, 10:05 PM
Are libertarians made, or born?

COpatriot
10-22-2012, 10:09 PM
Bill Maher and Glenn Beck are libertarians. Maybe there's more of them than we realize.

http://www.anomalouspropagation.com/files/page0_blog_entry34-mj-laughing.gif

Proph
10-22-2012, 10:24 PM
+rep. Worth the wait. Especially this part. winning an argument is not the same thing as winning a supporter.

I wish I could take credit for it. It was a quote from the article. I went back and edited it to reflect the author's name, instead of none at all (to avoid future confusion). The italics were all him, as well. At least I can take credit in the recycling of it or showing it to new people, eh?

Check out his other writings, if you have time. I can't remember reading an article of his that I didn't like.

Might as well quote more from the article, for those too lazy to read. There's just so many good points!


As in sales, so in all of life: Seek first to understand -- and only then to be understood. This is an idiom that actually makes your life easier, because people will always tell you how they can be persuaded if only you listen for long enough to let them.

The fundamental, psychological truth here is quite simple: No one cares what you think; they only care what they think. But if they respect you -- and only if they respect you -- will they let your thinking affect theirs.

Never let your ego get in the way of your objective: peace and freedom for all...

...or whatever the hell your objective is.

specsaregood
10-22-2012, 11:12 PM
Do you really think some CEO wants to compete on merit and not use the courts against his competitor?

yes, the vast majority.

Feeding the Abscess
10-23-2012, 12:11 AM
Even if you explain it well, they will nod their head in agreement, say "oh yes I agree completely", then 2 seconds later "oh look a squirrel!" and they forgot everything you just said.

They don't want to understand it. They will ignore you as best as they can, and if they accidentally start to make sense of what you're saying, and they start to see their chains, their instant reaction is to either get offended or change the subject.

This. I get people hating on Obama when I post articles about his warmongering, and they're fucking Romney supporters.

It's like, "god damn, really? Are you that dense?"

LibertyEagle
10-23-2012, 12:20 AM
It's like, "god damn, really? Are you that dense?"

Yes, yes, many are.

driller80545
10-23-2012, 12:36 AM
The vast majority of people in this country think that they are free. To question this idea is not in vogue at the present time. Libertarians are viewed as disgruntled.

DamianTV
10-23-2012, 01:41 AM
Libertarianism is always seen as this strange or crazy idea. MY parents even call it anti-social. Why do people feel the need to attack libertarianism? what exactly about is flawed. I want to know what libertarians think about it.

Libertarians are the new Atheists. Its cool to hate them.

Actually, given the choice between what is right and what is easy, an alarming number of people choose what is easy.

alucard13mmfmj
10-23-2012, 01:47 AM
cause they nominate people like bob barr.

idiom
10-23-2012, 04:12 AM
Libertarianism is always seen as this strange or crazy idea. MY parents even call it anti-social. Why do people feel the need to attack libertarianism? what exactly about is flawed. I want to know what libertarians think about it.

Hang around libertarians a bit longer. Its not exactly an undeserved reputation.

I mean the even some of the leading lights of the movement thought Race baiting might be a good idea.

Communism is an evil vicious philosophy in practice but its always promoted as stopping tyrants and helping the poor.

Libertarianism is a truly moral philosophy, but libertarians always say things like keep out of my pockets and get off my lawn.

We are largely elitist dicks.

I mean read the comments sections of any article attacking Ron Paul. Lots of nice reasoned comments but tonnes and tonnes or vitriol and diatribes and flat out crazy ranting.

Warrior_of_Freedom
10-23-2012, 04:14 AM
I don't care about party politics. Ron Paul was our guy and I supported him, and his message which is the message of those who founded the country. I got invited a constitution party event and right on the brochure it talked negative about immigrants and gay marriage. Scapegoating our problems to immigrants getting 3 dollars an hour isn't going to solve them, nor hating on gays. No leftists are going to be attracted by that rhetoric.

jmdrake
10-23-2012, 04:42 AM
I figured you were quoting someone. It's still worth a +rep. Sharing insightful information is often as good as coming up with it yourself. ;) I know I need to internalize that. It's so easy to focus on winning the argument. :(


I wish I could take credit for it. It was a quote from the article. I went back and edited it to reflect the author's name, instead of none at all (to avoid future confusion). The italics were all him, as well. At least I can take credit in the recycling of it or showing it to new people, eh?

Check out his other writings, if you have time. I can't remember reading an article of his that I didn't like.

Might as well quote more from the article, for those too lazy to read. There's just so many good points!



Never let your ego get in the way of your objective: peace and freedom for all...

...or whatever the hell your objective is.

Travlyr
10-23-2012, 05:35 AM
Do you really think the elderly want their monthly shakedown of the young to stop?
Do you really think 55 year old retired cops want their pensions to stop?
Do you really think some CEO wants to compete on merit and not use the courts against his competitor?

I think some people understand what is going on, but most people don't have a clue because sound monetary principles are not taught. The CEO may know exactly what he is doing. The retired pensioners probably don't understand what is going on and neither do the elderly. They look at it as if they paid their dues and do not look at it as a monthly shakedown of the young. They believe they have earned their position. That is a misunderstanding of what is going on.

More importantly, many young people are buying into doing away with government as the solution to their problems. They see government as their enemy rather than understanding the proper role of government. That is a misunderstanding of how to achieve liberty.

Ron Paul talks about the virtues of sound money all the time. He also talks about obeying the constitution. While most people see Ron Paul as the champion of liberty, they do not hear his message of being the champion of the constitution. His message is misunderstood.

So I see most people in America as being misinformed, intentionally, rather than being informed and understanding their world. They are propagandized in school, media, Hollywood, their churches, and online.

That is why I wrote that I did not buy AF's line, "But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part."

I think most people misunderstand rather than understand.

CaptLouAlbano
10-23-2012, 06:08 AM
Personally, I think most people are libertarian in a general sense. They want a limited government particularly at the federal level. Where libertarians have a problem, is that the ideology, when taken to its natural conclusions is incompatible in the real world. Particularly because we are not a moral society. Libertarians lose the argument when the issues get closer to home. Libertarians can convince someone that their principles will work at the federal and even the state level, but when you get to local issues (zoning, schools, etc) you lose most people. Most people don't want a whorehouse opening up next door to their home. Most people don't want a heroin store opening up next to a school. These are the issues where ideological purists falter because their adherence to libertarian purity can cloud their ability to realize that people coming together to live in a community have the right to create a government to their liking to ensure that their community functions as they desire it to.

EBounding
10-23-2012, 06:10 AM
Why aren't more people libertarians? I think the most simple answer is because people like to feel safe. People feel safe with the current system and politicians. And unfortunately I don't think people are going to run towards liberty when things get really bad. They're going to want a tyrant who will "fix the problem" as fast as possible.

Philhelm
10-23-2012, 08:23 AM
I don't think that I've ever met a stupid libertarian. Draw your own conclusion.

jcannon98188
10-23-2012, 08:38 AM
I have come to the conclusion that people don't want to be free. To be free means that you have to take responsibility for your mistakes. Freedom means that they can no longer just exist they have to actively live (v).

ClydeCoulter
10-23-2012, 08:53 AM
I think some people understand what is going on, but most people don't have a clue because sound monetary principles are not taught. The CEO may know exactly what he is doing. The retired pensioners probably don't understand what is going on and neither do the elderly. They look at it as if they paid their dues and do not look at it as a monthly shakedown of the young. They believe they have earned their position. That is a misunderstanding of what is going on.

More importantly, many young people are buying into doing away with government as the solution to their problems. They see government as their enemy rather than understanding the proper role of government. That is a misunderstanding of how to achieve liberty.

Ron Paul talks about the virtues of sound money all the time. He also talks about obeying the constitution. While most people see Ron Paul as the champion of liberty, they do not hear his message of being the champion of the constitution. His message is misunderstood.

So I see most people in America as being misinformed, intentionally, rather than being informed and understanding their world. They are propagandized in school, media, Hollywood, their churches, and online.

That is why I wrote that I did not buy AF's line, "But here's the fundamental problem: people understand, they understand perfectly what is going on, for the most part."

I think most people misunderstand rather than understand.

Yes.

I'm still in the process of "de-programming". I learn more each day, some from you all here, some from other sources/experiences.

I don't label myself as "libertarian".

I am having discussions with a couple of people, online (my oldest son and a brother-in-law). I'm listening and responding, hopefully we are each learning. Learning, if nothing else, how to discuss things without pointing fingers at each other.

We all have our own programming to deal with. Maybe some things won't be understood right now. Is pro-choice or pro-life the better moral choice? Does god(s) really exist? Some things won't matter until we learn to deal with one another and live with each other in the situation we are in already.

For every saying, that seems to make sense, there's an atidote. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", "give him salt tablets". I think sayings and parables are just as bad a propaganda as any other tool, or can be. They, sometimes, give pat stances that prevent good discussion. I often times have to combat these things when trying to have a good discussion.

etc...etc...etc...I'm still learning

SilentBull
10-23-2012, 08:54 AM
I think it is the fact that libertarianism is just never presented to the American people, by the media. They always hear only 2 sides to every issue. Many people would agree with libertarianism if only they knew that the option existed.

July
10-23-2012, 09:58 AM
I think it's a combination of things.

First of all, most people actually don't realize they aren't free already. In America, we are always told we are the most free country on earth. But what do we have to compare it to? Few people check to see if that claim is really true, unless they travel a lot, which is not most people. What did Mises say about human action? That the opposite of action is not inaction, it is contentment. So when you are content, there's no real effort to change an existing state of being, because you are satisfied as you are.

Second, libertarian history and ideas aren't taught to children when they are young, and young people have few libertarian adult role models and elders to look up to as they age. So people will tend to follow their peers, and follow the example of others. Philosophy and politics isn't really taught either. And most people aren't taught real economics. So ignorance does play a part.

And lastly, the kind of personality profile that is curious, willing to challenge convention, who are intellectual, or naturally anti authority enough to go digging for the truth, or who are able to break free of propaganda, are rare personality types.... Personality types like INTJ or INTP, for example, are RARE. And those are the kind of people who tend to be early adopters, etc. The majority of society won't jump on board with an idea until it is popular and mainstream enough. Which is why libertarianism will never be popular until it can be mainstream and familiar to people.

I think it is possible for libertarianism to be popular and status quo someday. It's going to take a lot of deliberate effort by people who have naturally individualistic and anti authority dispositions to push themselves to be role models and leaders, though. That isn't so easy for many of us. It will also take naturally intellectual types with a willingness to present the message in a simplified way for the masses, so te ideas can enter the mainstream. This is easier said then done, because the very idea of doing that repels many with this kind of personality type.

presence
10-23-2012, 10:04 AM
What's to sell?

Rule 1 - Mind your business.

Rule 2 - Keep your hands to yourself.

What's to sell? Convincing other people it is worth exploring and managing all the paradoxes those two rules create without creating more rules.

SilentBull
10-23-2012, 11:07 AM
And lastly, the kind of personality profile that is curious, willing to challenge convention, who are intellectual, or naturally anti authority enough to go digging for the truth, or who are able to break free of propaganda, are rare personality types.... Personality types like INTJ or INTP, for example, are RARE. And those are the kind of people who tend to be early adopters, etc. The majority of society won't jump on board with an idea until it is popular and mainstream enough. Which is why libertarianism will never be popular until it can be mainstream and familiar to people.

Exactly. Most people just follow. Even if most people were "libertarian" only a minority of them would actually be able to explain why they are libertarian. People like us will never be the majority. But we can make our ideas mainstream enough so the rest of the people will follow, even if they are following for the wrong reasons.

That's why sometimes it is not worth wasting our time explaining every little detail of Austrian economics to people if what we want is for them to vote for our candidates. Our message needs to be simplified for those who really don't care to actually study the issues. For example, in a recent article I wrote I explain that federal student loans enrich the schools, and don't help the students. This message is received better than trying to explain to a liberal, Austrian Economics.