PDA

View Full Version : Feds strand Patriot in Hawaii by putting him on "No Fly List" midflight.




Anti Federalist
10-19-2012, 10:28 PM
Just testing the waters for now, probing for pushback.



“Sir, you must come with us”

Doug Hagmann

Tuesday, October 16, 2012

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/50309

One man’s tropical paradise is another man’s prison. Imagine being “stuck” on Oahu. I’m sure you could think of worse situations, but really stop and think about the following true and evolving situation. You’re a “normal” 34 year-old guy, live on the U.S. mainland in Gulfport, Mississippi, and recently married a woman who is a lieutenant in the U.S. Navy stationed in Okinawa.

You’re a citizen of the United States and possess a valid U.S. issued passport. You’re not a criminal and have no history of felony or misdemeanor convictions. In fact, you recently passed a background check to own and carry a firearm in Mississippi. You are, however, an outspoken patriot for the United States Constitution.

You miss your bride of eight months, and decide to fly to Okinawa to visit her. Because you are the “dependent” of an active duty member of the U.S. military, you make arrangements to fly from San Francisco to Okinawa on a military aircraft. You must still have a ticket, pass the screening procedures similar or even more stringent than those flying on normal commercial airlines. After the screening at the airport, you board the plane and settle in for your flight, counting down the hours until you are reunited with your wife.

The plane lands in Hawaii as scheduled for refueling and maintenance. It is here, after re-boarding the aircraft, that two heavily-armed military guards confront you and tell you that you must leave the plane. They take you to a small room at the military base and advise you that you are on the U.S. “No-Fly” list. You’re not under arrest, but you’re not free to go until they decide what to do with you. You watch as your plane, as well as your hopes of seeing your bride vanish into the air while under the careful watch of two heavily armed military police officials.

What’s going on?

As you sit in a small room, thoughts race through your mind. Why am I here? It must be some mistake. I’ve committed no crime. Like any “normal” American, You expect the matter to be resolved as there must be some mix-up. Then, an official with the Customs and Border Enforcement arrives and tells you that there is no mix-up. The official rattles off your name, date of birth, social security number and complete identifying information. It’s you alright, and you are officially on the “No-Fly” list.

“How did you get on that plane?” asks the Customs and Border Enforcement official. You reply that you had a normal ticket, passed through the screening process and boarded the plane normally and without incident. You are told that you should not have been permitted to fly. Again, you are on the “No-Fly” list. You reply that there has to be a mistake, and are met with the stern reply of the official: there is no mistake.

You then ask why you are on the “No-Fly” list and are told that you are not permitted to know. At this point, they tell you that you are free to go, but you cannot fly anywhere by orders of the United States government. And there you are, in “paradise” but unable to leave.

Meet Wade Hicks, Jr

The above events took place on October 14, 2012. The victim in this case is one Wade Hicks, Jr., 34, a U.S. citizen and resident of Gulfport, Mississippi. I personally checked him out and verified his story. With his permission, I conducted a “basic” background check of Mr. Hicks, Jr. He has no criminal record. He is not a “wanted” man. By all normal and visible accounts, Mr. Hicks, Jr. appears to be a law abiding member of society.

I did find, however, that he is an outspoken “patriot” and openly critical of the NDAA. He is a former talk-show host of a small, local radio station known for its “patriotic bias.” He is a member of “Patriots for America” and the Mississippi Preparedness Project. He is openly vocal about the erosion of our rights - and it certainly looks like he has been proven correct. Is that now a crime worthy of being denied the ability to travel freely within the United States?

Mr. Hicks detailed his plight on Monday’s edition of The Hagmann & Hagmann Report to a shocked and disbelieving audience. How can this happen in America? This is inter-STATE travel! There must be some mistake! Has he done anything to let his elected representatives know? The questions were many, and yes, Mr. Hicks, Jr. indeed pleaded for assistance from his elected officials and anyone who would listen during the last 36 hours. “I’ve got nothing to hide,” stated Mr. Hicks. Nothing. “I feel like a prisoner in my own country, but no one will tell me what I’ve done to be placed on the ‘No-Fly’ list. I’m not allowed to know.”

Although I’m tempted to insert a reference to “Gilligan’s Island,” I will refrain. If all of the facts presently known withstand more intense scrutiny and further investigation, we have a very big problem in this country. You might be next, and Hawaii might not be where you are inexplicably left on your own.

I am following the fate of Mr. Hicks and continue to search for a logical explanation. At this point, however, the only logical explanation I’ve found is a very disturbing one. Perhaps this is how it all starts. Stay tuned

Anti Federalist
10-19-2012, 10:31 PM
A more "mainstream" article, if that's your preferred flavor.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/fly-list-strands-man-island-hawaii-17521926

Or:

http://www.examiner.com/article/feds-strand-ndaa-critic-hawaii-using-no-fly-list-no-explanation-given

sailingaway
10-19-2012, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I saw something on that. You can't even know why you are prohibited from flying. That HAS to be unconstitutional.

Keith and stuff
10-19-2012, 10:40 PM
That HAS to be unconstitutional.

Just like almost all federal laws and rules. If something is Constitutional it is highly unusual and likely to change.

AGRP
10-19-2012, 10:41 PM
The lesson is to keep quiet and hide under your bed. Fear tactics are so obvious when they present themselves. Is this listed on infowars too?

Anti Federalist
10-19-2012, 10:50 PM
Then there's this...

Remember, you have no "right" to a passport to get the fuck out of here.

A passport is government property, issued and revoked wholly at government's whim.

When they decide to shut the doors, that's it.



State Dept. admits passport form was illegal, but still wants it approved

The new U.S. passport application forms are back, worse than ever.

http://papersplease.org/wp/2012/09/24/state-dept-admits-passport-form-was-illegal-but-still-wants-it-approved/#more-4874

Ignoring massive public opposition, and despite having recently admitted that it is already using the “proposed” forms illegally without approval, the State Department is trying again to get approval for a pair of impossible-to-complete new passport application forms that would, in effect, allow the State Department to deny you a passport simply by choosing to send you either or both of the new “long forms”.

Early last year, the State Department proposed a new “Biographical Questionnaire” for passport applicants, which would have required anyone selected to receive the new long-form DS-5513 to answer bizarre and intrusive personal trivia questions about everything from whether you were circumcised (and if so, with what accompanying religious rituals) to the dates of all of your mother’s pre- and post-natal medical appointments, your parents’ addresses one year before you were born, every address at which you have ever resided, and your lifetime employment history including the names and phone numbers of each of your supervisors at every job you have ever held.

Most people would be unable to complete the proposed new form no matter how much time and money they invested in research. Requiring someone to complete Form DS-5513 would amount to de facto denial of their application for a passport — which, as we told the State Department, appeared to be the point of the form.

The State Department’s notice of the proposal in the Federal Register didn’t include the form itself. After we published the proposed Form DS-5513, the story went viral and more than 3,000 public comments objecting to the proposal were filed with the State Department in the final 24 hours of the comment period.

After that fiasco, the State Department went dark for several months, and claimed that they would “revise” the form. But they didn’t give up, and apparently they didn’t listen to (or didn’t care) what they had been told by members of the public in our comments.

The State Department is now seeking approval for a (slightly) revised Form DS-5513 as well as a new Form DS-5520, also for passport applicants, containing many of the same questions.

The State Department no longer wants you to tell the passport examiner about the circumstances of your circumcision, but does still want to know the dates and locations of all of your mother’s pre- and post-natal medical appointments, how long she was hospitalized for your birth, and a complete list of everyone who was in the room when you were born. The revised forms no longer ask for all the addresses at which you have lived, but only for those addresses you are least likely to know: all the places you lived from birth until age 18.

And so on, as you can see for yourself on the proposed Form DS-5513 and Form DS-5520.

Pursuant to the Paperwork Reduction Act (44 U.S.C. 3501 et seq.), any “information collection” by Federal agencies must be approved in advance by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB). If a Federal government form or questionnaire (including verbal questioning, if the same questions are asked of ten or more people) asks you to provide information, but doesn’t contain a current, valid, unexpired “OMB control number”, you aren’t required to answer and can’t be penalized for declining to answer.

There are still no rules in the supporting materials submitted to OMB by the State Department (supporting documents for Form DS-5513, supporting documents for Form DS-5520) for who will be required to complete which (or both) of these two new forms. It would still be up to the standardless, secret, administrative “discretion” of any passport examiner who doesn’t like your looks to spike your right to foreign travel by choosing to give you one or both of the “long form” passport applications.

Supposedly, Form DS-5520 will be for those passport applicants of whose “identity” the State Department is in doubt, while the partially-redundant Form DS-5513 will be for those whose “entitlement” to a U.S. passport (i.e. U.S. citizenship) is in question. But both forms say that, “Failure to provide the information requested may result in … the denial of your U.S. passport application.”

As we noted in our comments (which appear to have been almost entirely ignored), the State Department is entitled to require only that information which is actually necessary to establish identity and eligibility. Once an applicant has provided prima facie evidence of identity and eligibility for a U.S. passport, the State Department has no further authority for interrogatories. A passport must be issued unless there is sufficient evidence to overcome the applicant’s showing of identity and citizenship.

State Department regulations entitle passport applicants to establish their identity by the affidavit of an identifying witness, in lieu of documentary evidence of identity. So the new Form DS-5520 (”Supplemental Questionnaire to Determine Identity for a U.S. Passport”) would be “necessary” only if no identifying witness is available. Bringing an identifying witness when you apply for a passport is a nuisance, but often easier than completing the “long-form” application questionnaires.

As we’ve recently pointed out, however, the State Department seems to be trying not to call attention to the option of establishing identity by a witness, and to make it harder for applicants to exercise that right. Apparently the government thinks that papers, not people, are the ultimate arbiters of who we are. And the State Department is succeeding. The number of people using the witness affidavit (Form DS-71) has fallen by about 75% in the five years since the required form was removed from the State Department’s website.

The State Department published another set of notices in the Federal Register about the revised forms. But since the Federal Register notices didn’t include the actual forms, there was no way to verify whether the “revisions” actually addressed the public objections to the first draft of Form DS-5513.

Not surprisingly, most people felt that we had already told the State Department what to do with the proposed from — scrap it! — and hardly any new comments were submitted.

The State Department’s latest submissions to OMB make no mention of the thousands of comments submitted in objection to the original proposal, or of the issues we raised that the proposed form and its use would exceed the State Department’s authority and violate other Federal laws, the First Amendment, and international human rights treaties that protect the right to freedom of movement.

In July of this year, OMB rejected the requests for approval of both the revised Form DS-5513 (OMB notice of action) and the proposed new Form DS-5520 (OMB notice of action) as “improperly submitted”. OMB didn’t say publicly what was “improper” about the State Department’s requests, but we suspect that the impropriety was that the State Department claimed that these were “new” forms when in fact, as we reported last year, they were and are already being used, illegally, without OMB approval.

This August, the State Department resubmitted the proposed forms (Form DS-5513, Form DS-5520) to OMB with new “supplemental statements” admitting that both Form DS-5513 (MS-Word version; PDF) and Form DS-5520 (MS-Word version; PDF) are “existing collection[s of information] in use without an OMB control number” and that both of these forms were “created to correct a procedure that might have been inconsistent with the Paperwork Reduction Act.”

In other words, “We’ve been using these unapproved forms illegally for years, but now we want OMB to give us its blessing to keep on using them.”

OMB is now considering these resubmitted State Department “information collection requests”. There’s no fixed deadline for the current OMB review, but in the meantime, use of the forms remains illegal.

The State Department still hasn’t answered our year-old FOIA request for information about the current unauthorized forms, including how long they have been in use and how many people have been required to fill them out (under illegal threat of denial of a U.S. passport if they are unable or unable to provide the requested information).

OMB’s Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) says that:

In addition to submitting comments through regulations.gov, outside parties may provide written comments to the OIRA Administrator on a regulatory action under review. Parties may also request a meeting with the Administrator. The best way to communicate comments to OIRA is by fax at (202-395-7245). The best way to request a meeting regarding a rule is to contact the Docket Library at 202-395-6880. At any point, members of the public may also submit comments to … OIRA about any currently approved information collections.

We’ve already called and faxed OIRA to resubmit our comments (which the State Department ignored), and to request a meeting to discuss the objections we and our many co-signers raised.

(We’ve provided links above to all of the cited documents on .gov websites where possible because the forms are so incredible that many readers doubted their authenticity when we posted the original version last year.)

If you submit comments to OIRA, make sure you say that you are commenting on OMB’s review of proposed Department of State information collection requests Form DS-5513 (ICR Reference Number 201208-1405-002) and Form DS-5520 (ICR Reference Number 201208-1405-001).

Anti Federalist
10-19-2012, 10:50 PM
////

AGRP
10-19-2012, 10:53 PM
Oh crap. Hide under your beds and get all your mouths sewn shut.

Anti Federalist
10-19-2012, 10:55 PM
Oh crap. Hide under your beds and get all your mouths sewn shut.

This wasn't an infowars story.

So, what should we do?

Ignore this and hope it will go away?

Yeah, that's real productive...

RickyJ
10-19-2012, 10:58 PM
What is with this "no-fly" list anyway? Doesn't everyone get screened, if so then why not let all people fly? They pay their money so let them fly! Damn, who the hell thought of a "no-fly" list anyway?

What's next, a no eat list?

AGRP
10-19-2012, 10:59 PM
This wasn't an infowars story.

So, what should we do?

Ignore this and hope it will go away?

Yeah, that's real productive...

We need to hide under our beds and sew our mouths shut. Otherwise well be stranded and quarantined in far away places.

AFPVet
10-19-2012, 11:00 PM
It will only continue to get worse.

Anti Federalist
10-19-2012, 11:01 PM
We need to hide under our beds and sew our mouths shut. Otherwise well be stranded and quarantined in far away places.

No, we need to be even more loud, outspoken and radical, and rally to this man's defense.

WTF is your problem tonight?

sailingaway
10-19-2012, 11:04 PM
No, we need to be even more loud, outspoken and radical, and rally to this man's defense.

WTF is your problem tonight?

I think he was using irony and sarcasm. At least that was how I took it. Black humor.

RickyJ
10-19-2012, 11:04 PM
No, we need to be even more loud, outspoken and radical, and rally to this man's defense.

WTF is your problem tonight?

I think it is called sarcasm. At least I see it that way.

Warrior_of_Freedom
10-19-2012, 11:11 PM
Can he take a boat?
What about going on a cruise and just getting off on the mainland? :P


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8F3UE9qFsg

Anti Federalist
10-19-2012, 11:12 PM
I think he was using irony and sarcasm. At least that was how I took it. Black humor.


I think it is called sarcasm. At least I see it that way.

Oh, well, my mistake then.

I'm tired, I feel like shit and am in a generally pissed off mood.

I miss such things in that state of mind.

Indy Vidual
10-19-2012, 11:21 PM
"It's scary to know that something like this can happen in a free country. You're not accused of any crime. You haven't been contacted by anyone. No investigation has been done. No due process has taken place," he said.

Indy Vidual
10-19-2012, 11:22 PM
...and said he plans to seek to recoup his added travel costs from the government.

idiom
10-20-2012, 12:29 AM
For anyone interested, this is New Zealand's passport form:

http://www.passports.govt.nz/vwluResources/adult-new-form.pdf/$file/adult-new-form.pdf

It is typical of NZ govt form. Short, simple, nothing that isn't needed. Usually more pages of instructions than questions.

paulbot24
10-20-2012, 01:02 AM
What is with this "no-fly" list anyway? Doesn't everyone get screened, if so then why not let all people fly? They pay their money so let them fly! Damn, who the hell thought of a "no-fly" list anyway?

What's next, a no eat list?

http://www.thelunchtray.com/schools-ban-flamin-hot-cheetos-but-why-stop-there/

http://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition/1019/flamin-hot-cheetos-from-vending-machine-to-emergency-room.aspx

"The USDA is soon releasing proposed nutritional standards..." Couldn’t we do better? Is it remotely possible that Congress will follow the lead of San Francisco USD (http://www.thelunchtray.com/do-the-new-massachusetts-competitive-food-rules-go-far-enough/) and require snack products sold on campus to not only be low in fat and salt but to also contain naturally-occurring positive nutrients?"

As we speak.....!

dillo
10-20-2012, 01:08 AM
so how does alex jones fly if hes not a disinfo fed agent

paulbot24
10-20-2012, 01:15 AM
so how does alex jones fly if hes not a disinfo fed agent

Oh boy. Here we go.:D

QuickZ06
10-20-2012, 10:54 AM
Beard....terrorists....merika.

AGRP
10-20-2012, 11:23 AM
so how does alex jones fly if hes not a disinfo fed agent

http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2011/4/11/508bdf91-be54-4f97-824a-36f403370662.jpg

jclay2
10-20-2012, 11:32 AM
After I looked at this story, I looked up more about the no fly list. Apparently it has 20000 names, of which, 500 are Americans. There is a much larger terror watch list that has half a million names, but I am unsure how many are Americans. My guess is that when s starts htf, the # of americans unable to fly will swell to at least a million strong. Most of us on this site, will in all likelihood, be on such a list.

One other thing to note from the story. If anyone ever approaches you in liberty circles and starts mentioning violence to end the establishment...run. Do not trust anyone like this as there is an extremely high probability that they are from the dhs/fbi and are just trying to entrap you.

Czolgosz
10-20-2012, 11:34 AM
You come to my house and I agree to let you in on the condition that you're not allowed to speak, have I violated your rights?


After you thoughtfully answer the question, ask yourself; how many agreements, tacit or by signature, do I make with government?

Keith and stuff
10-20-2012, 12:36 PM
After I looked at this story, I looked up more about the no fly list. Apparently it has 20000 names, of which, 500 are Americans. There is a much larger terror watch list that has half a million names, but I am unsure how many are Americans. My guess is that when s starts htf, the # of americans unable to fly will swell to at least a million strong. Most of us on this site, will in all likelihood, be on such a list.

I'm not too worried, I have already made the move to New Hampshire :D

nobody's_hero
10-20-2012, 01:36 PM
If they really wanted to punish people at this point they would put them on a "must fly" list. Seriously, why the hell do people even put up with airports anymore? If the founders were alive today I guarantee you we'd have a bunch of people dressing up like native americans and tossing luggage off the planes in protest, lol.

It would be a massive Boston Tarmac Party.

AFPVet
10-20-2012, 02:05 PM
so how does alex jones fly if hes not a disinfo fed agent

LOL... maybe because he has lots of friends in high places who are listeners? He's not a disinfo agent. He's just too big to go down... he also has many friends in law enforcement.

donnay
10-20-2012, 04:26 PM
I think he was using irony and sarcasm. At least that was how I took it. Black humor.

Hmm...maybe I will use that in my signature like he took my sarcastic remark to Specs and made it look like I was serious. :rolleyes:

donnay
10-20-2012, 04:29 PM
so how does alex jones fly if hes not a disinfo fed agent

Selectively enforced. Jones is also in the public eye and there would be backlash.

Tinnuhana
10-20-2012, 05:12 PM
Meanwhile, all the personnel on Okinawa have a 2300-0500 curfew due to the "alleged" rape of a 20 yr old Okinawan woman by two drunk sailors. and they aren't even stationed there: they were off a boat on "liberty".

Pericles
10-20-2012, 05:17 PM
If they really wanted to punish people at this point they would put them on a "must fly" list. Seriously, why the hell do people even put up with airports anymore? If the founders were alive today I guarantee you we'd have a bunch of people dressing up like native americans and tossing luggage off the planes in protest, lol.

It would be a massive Boston Tarmac Party.

Damn straight. Almost there.