Losing the Christian Vote

[yaz]

Someone I'm close to, along with countless other hardcore Christians are being persuaded to vote for Huckabee even though he is a "pro-life liberal." We need to influence local Christian groups in a positive way. There are many talk show hosts that throw around pro-Huckabee propaganda as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHLwFjAilnY

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this group of people?

[Paulite5112007]

What message is Huckabee presenting that is persuading them? I'm an atheist so don't really know what would drive a Christian vote.

[RonPaulFever]

I fear that RP won't get much of the Christian Right vote simply because he won't pander to them. He puts the constitution before any group's agenda, and it's unfortunate that a lot of Christians won't be voting for him because of that.

[RonPaulFever]

What message is Huckabee presenting that is persuading them? I'm an atheist so don't really know what would drive a Christian vote.

Seems like a bunch of bland, feel-good Jesus-y rhetoric that Christians eat up. In other words, nothing with substance that might actually cause them to think rationally or put their beliefs aside for the good of the country.

[Paulite5112007]

Thats too bad - the reason I am voting for him is primarily I can trust him not to pander to any particular group.

[AdamT]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this group of people?

Radio ads. We recorded several here (http://www.alcpac.com/spots_radio.html), which we are planning on airing on local Christian radio stations. The guy who runs the station was even a supporter!

[DealzOnWheelz]

you need to sell them on his principles; morals; & the fact that he is not buyable

[yaz]

Seems like a bunch of bland, feel-good Jesus-y rhetoric that Christians eat up. In other words, nothing with substance that might actually cause them to think rationally or put their beliefs aside for the good of the country.

I take offense to that.

[yaz]

I think our best bet is finding issues that Huckabee isn't so Christian-like on. Chuck Norris endorsed Huck because he's a Christian.

[Paulite5112007]

Maybe emphasize his stance on the constitutional priciples that they feel are drawn from the bible? He will vigoriously support those and is the only candidate who can be trusted to keep supporting them once elected because he does not take special interest money to trash the constitution and the Christian founders who fathered it.

...I know they were not ALL Christian, but I'm sure at least a few were.

[Mark]

I fear that RP won't get much of the Christian Right vote simply because he won't pander to them. He puts the constitution before any group's agenda, and it's unfortunate that a lot of Christians won't be voting for him because of that.


You just need to point out to them that there is no "honor"
in slaughtering innocent lives like Huckabee believes..

Jesus would not let ONE innocent child be murdered to "save honor"
or whatever Huck thinks it is..

[yaz]

that wont run well, many Christians are pro-war.

[Paulite5112007]

Exactly, there is no honor is sending our children to die in a misguided war. Its easier to convice someone of the path to Jesus with a tap on the shoulder and word from the Bible than a barrel to their face.

...that sounds good and I'm not even Christian.

[Paulite5112007]

that wont run well, many Christians are pro-war.

Did not know that..

I don't think we should worry about losing the pro-war vote actually. As much as we are against it, they are for it. I know knothing they can say will change my mind and I am not arrogant enough to believe something I could say will change theirs.

[Bodhi]

that wont run well, many Christians are pro-war.

I'm running up against that problem as well. A lot of family members are "Christians" but they are very pro war. Doesn't make any sense to me so I am caught off guard a bit by the hypocracy of being a pro war "Christian".

[dircha]

What message is Huckabee presenting that is persuading them? I'm an atheist so don't really know what would drive a Christian vote.

That he is just like Bush, only a better Evangelical Christian, and a more Compassionate Conservative.

And as best as I can tell, he is. So if that's what gets someone going in a political candidate, then Huckabee is the man.

A vote for Huckabee is a vote for your hip, guitar-playing pastor.

[nayjevin]

ask them if jesus would indiscriminantly kill innocent brown people to save face

[dircha]

I'm running up against that problem as well. A lot of family members are "Christians" but they are very pro war. Doesn't make any sense to me so I am caught off guard a bit by the hypocracy of being a pro war "Christian".

Ron Paul was caught off guard too.

When he dared to mention in the debate that Christ was called "the Prince of Peace", the crowd erupted in angry hisses and boos.

Booo! Booo! Bring back Mr. 9/11 guy! Double Guantanamo!

[Ncturnal]

you need to sell them on his principles; morals; & the fact that he is not buyable

Christians don't usually go for that. Hell, Pat Robertson endorsed Rudy. That's about as far as you can get on principles and morals in the Republican party. :rolleyes:


that wont run well, many Christians are pro-war.

Amazing isn't it.

[dircha]

ask them if jesus would indiscriminantly kill innocent brown people to save face

If they're anything like the conservative Republicans who attend the debates, bringing that up just makes them angry.

It's much easier to just shout down someone suggesting that you think critically than it is to actually think. They'd rather listen to Pastor Huck reassure them in his soothing, folksy voice that we need to stay to the last man, come hell or high water, to defend our honor.

[Paulite5112007]

Yep - better to focus efforts on people who's agenda is not pro-war. Sadly, if this means we lose the pro-war Christain vote...so be it. I typically go after people I know who are apathetic to voting or who are against the war or are for the war but willing to consider a candidate who will 'fix' America in ways a Commander in Chief can fix it.

[Mark]

I'm running up against that problem as well. A lot of family members are "Christians" but they are very pro war. Doesn't make any sense to me so I am caught off guard a bit by the hypocracy of being a pro war "Christian".

It's complete hypocrisy.

There is, as Dr Paul says, a 'justified war' need at times I suppose,
like stopping a Hitler, but, what the neocons have engaged us in
is unjust by any Righteous standard.

The Christians who are pro this war have just been brainwashed by
the MSM, like others who think this is a justified war.

Show them pictures of maimed and killed children. Mention the estimated
1,000,000 Irags killed/maimed.

Ask them how many, of the 3000 people who died on 9/11, and who are
now in Heaven, do they think are up in Heaven crying out for more innocent
blood to be spilled. None are.

Ask them how they would feel if it was Iraq in America doing what Bush
is doing in Iraq.

I blogged a story on Myspace about it:

~~~~~~~~

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=15548051


Ifnews~15 (9 children) killed in U.S.~raid~NW of Capital
.

9 Children Killed in Iraqi Raid in U.S.

By Mark - RonPaul2008.com ~~ Ifnews Press Writer
Fri Oct 12, 7:55 PM ET

An Iraqi attack killed 19 insurgents and 15 civilians, including nine children,
northwest of the capital Thursday —

one of the heaviest civilian death tolls in an Iraqi operation in recent months.

The military said it was targeting senior leaders of "The_Base" resistance in America.

Iraqi forces have applied fierce and determined pressure on militants,
especially The_Base in America,
since the full contingent of additional Iraqi troops arrived June 15.

But Sec. of State Condoleezza Rice has recently confronted
top Iraqi commander Gen. Nouri al-Maliki about what she sees as
overly aggressive Iraqi tactics that harm innocent civilians,
according to American officials.

The military statement detailing Thursday's air and ground assault said soldiers were acting on intelligence reports about a

The_Base meeting in the 'Lake Whatifbe' region. The southern reaches of the big, man-made lake are about 50 miles northwest of the capital.

The Iraqi account said Iraqi surveillance confirmed "activity consistent with the reports and supporting aircraft engaged the time-sensitive target." The first air attack killed "four terrorists," said the statement.

The military said it then tracked some of those who escaped the initial attack to a place south of Lake Whatifbe. It said ground forces moved on the site and came under fire. Air support was called in.

"After securing the area, the ground force assessed 15 terrorists, six women and nine children were killed," the statement said.
Two suspected The_Base members,
a woman and three children were wounded, according to the 'military' account.

The military said its troopers "were reviewing information from the scene (of Thursday's attack) as well as assessing the level of damage involved."




The statement also issued regret
"that civilians are hurt or killed while Coalition forces search to rid America of terrorism."



Jesus The Christ was contacted about potential "Eternal Soul Consequences".

He asked if Iraqi officials issued a "statement of regret".

When it was confirmed to Him that they did, He said:

"Oh... okay... that's cool then..."



On Oct. 5, a pre-dawn Iraqi raid on Baltimore, a Protestant city north of Washington,
killed 25 people when Iraqi troops called in airstrikes after meeting a fierce barrage
while hunting suspected smugglers of arms from Canada to Washington.

Village leaders said the victims included civilians,
but the military insisted the 25 killed were militants.

Iraq President Saddam Hussein ordered the 30,000 Iraqi forces to America
to stanch sectarian violence and give the government breathing space to foster reconciliation
among the country's warring Catholic and Protestant Christians.

U.S. forces have chalked up notable success against militants, but the government has become nearly deadlocked and made no progress on healing wounds among America's sectarian and ethnic groups.


The Iraqi military announced the combat death of a soldier Wednesday in eastern Washington.

While, at least 35 (thirty-five) Americans were killed or found dead in attacks
nationwide Thursday,
as suicide car bombers struck a market in the northern city of Philadelphia,
and a cafe in eastern Washington.

Also Thursday, the Iraqi military revealed that rockets fired from a nearby abandoned school
struck Camp Victory, Iraqi military headquarters near Washington Airport,
killing two members of the Iraqi-led coalition and wounding 40 other people
on the sprawling headquarters for Iraqi forces in America.

Most troops stationed at the base are Iraqi, but there are small contingents from other countries. The military said those wounded in Wednesday's attack included two "third-country nationals," meaning they were not Iraqis or Americans.

Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush said 107 mm rockets were used.

A number of other rockets also were found at the launching site, he said, adding the military had strong leads about who was behind the attack. An Iraqi military official said the rockets were fired from an abandoned school nearby.

Both the American officials and the Iraqi military official spoke on condition of anonymity because they lacked authorization to release information.

Iraqi bases in America frequently face rocket or mortar attacks, but Camp Victory is well-entrenched on the capital's western outskirts and such heavy casualties are rare.

On Sept. 11, one person was killed and 11 were wounded in a rocket attack on the complex, which includes lakeside palaces formerly used by George Bush that now house the headquarters of the Multi-National Forces in America.

The Iraqi military said a 240 mm rocket provided to Protestant extremists by Canada was used in that attack.

By contrast, the Iraqi-protected Green Zone, which houses the Iraqi and Saudi embassies and the Iraqi government headquarters in central Washington, is far more vulnerable and has faced a series of deadly strikes in recent months.



http://www.godmark.com/images/9kc.jpg

[Mark]

ask them if jesus would indiscriminantly kill innocent brown people to save face

The Teacher's answer guide says: NO

[McLane2007]

Just pass out Slim Jims - "FOR LIFE AND LIBERTY" to as many of Christians as you can then just let them decide you will be better off getting Ron Paul’s message to as many Christians as you can instead of trying to convert someone who has made up their mind already.

[Richandler]

Didn't read through the all the topics postings, but my belief is that a lot of Christians believe we are fighting a war against Muslims. It may be subliminal but the terror has worked on both sides of that war. The only thing I think we can do is look to the bible, the teaching of Jesus and such and point out how Paul disntincly follows these ideas.

Now I'm atheist but that is just my opinion on the whole issue.

[Mark]

If they're anything like the conservative Republicans who attend the debates, bringing that up just makes them angry.


Point out these Scriptures when they follow the whim
of whatever they're told by false ministers who know NOT,
The Will Of God.


Matthew 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[steph3n]

you know what some of the problem is? I will be honest, but it is some of the supporters attitudes and attacks. I have seen them in person once, most of the time I don't but I have sen it once, and MANY times here.
Let me tell you when you are trying to WIN support, don't insult or demean people.
once they have been won over a friendly civil debate is fine, but avoid the name calling.

[Mark]

you know what some of the problem is? I will be honest, but it is some of the supporters attitudes and attacks. I have seen them in person once, most of the time I don't but I have sen it once, and MANY times here.
Let me tell you when you are trying to WIN support, don't insult or demean people.
once they have been won over a friendly civil debate is fine, but avoid the name calling.


That's not just here or in the campaign, it's rampant in The Last Days of The Age
EVERYWHERE according to the Bible.

[billv]

Seems like a bunch of bland, feel-good Jesus-y rhetoric that Christians eat up. In other words, nothing with substance that might actually cause them to think rationally or put their beliefs aside for the good of the country.

So true

[Mark]

So true

Well.. that's not just limited to Christians.. now is it?

[steph3n]

So true

actually it is not, and if you keep it up you will see the best way to not win them over.
(I am one of THEM)

[r3volution]

main reasons are because he will not support a constitutional amendment for ,
ban on gay marriage .
ban on abortion .
there you have it , we all know Ron is personally strongly against abortion (maybe even gay marriage to but dont quote me) but he believes the states should amend there own constitutions or pass appropriate laws to ban them because that is not the feds job .

[Mark]

actually it is not, and if you keep it up you will see the best way to not win them over.
(I am one of THEM)

You have to play their game and fight fire with fire..

They can argue with your answer..

they CAN'T argue with mine..

[wildflower]

I know that it has been said we should stay away from any talk about 'conspiracy theories' - but there are many Christians who believe that the New World Order is prophesied (and warned against) in the bible, and there is a spiritual element to it... it's evil, and will be run by anti-God, evil people. Many believe it will be part of the end times, as prophesied in Revelations.

I know that sounds very 'out there' to non-Christians, but it might be something to talk to Christians about (ones that you know).... because Ron Paul is one of the few candidates who is anti-globalism, so to vote for him is to vote against evil.

[Mark]

I know that it has been said we should stay away from any talk about 'conspiracy theories' - but there are many Christians who believe that the New World Order is prophesied (and warned against) in the bible, and there is a spiritual element to it... it's evil, and will be run by anti-God, evil people. Many believe it will be part of the end times, as prophesied in Revelations.

I know that sounds very 'out there' to non-Christians, but it might be something to talk to Christians about (ones that you know).... because Ron Paul is one of the few candidates who is anti-globalism, so to vote for him is to vote against evil.

QFT == "Quoted for Truth"

Thing is.. Satan's plans are WAY more 'off track' than people know..

Somethings have happened that he didn't count on or expect..

He's scrambling to recover as much as he can.. but.. to no avail..

Trust in God.. He has a plan.. and it's working..

just wait for what's next..

Satan's about to be so shamed in front of the whole world..

he'll probably wish he could just go ahead and
crawl into The Pit ahead of time..

[wildflower]

I also want to add that many Christians may not even realize that we're getting closer to globalism, so it might be good to bring that up, so they don't do the wrong thing by voting for Huckabee or one of the CFR candidates.

[saahmed]

In Iowa the campaign is asking volunteers to put slim jims on cars during Sunday church services this Sunday. Unfortunately I have to work.

[BeFranklin]

FYI: Did anyone read this story?
double (dealing) signing laws to support torture, - which I was just reading about, and its horrible that we are even DISCUSSING this as a nation:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/11/20/a_tactic_of_bushs_on_bills_is_assailed/

In answer to the original question. You deal with this with a lot of prayer. If God wants Ron Paul to win the election, he will.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chr 7:14

[Paulite5112007]

QFT == "Quoted for Truth"

Thing is.. Satan's plans are WAY more 'off track' than people know..

Somethings have happened that he didn't count on or expect..

He's scrambling to recover as much as he can.. but.. to no avail..

Trust in God.. He has a plan.. and it's working..

just wait for what's next..

Satan's about to be so shamed in front of the whole world..

he'll probably wish he could just go ahead and
crawl into The Pit ahead of time..


Whats amazing is I disagree 100% with what you are saying and believe in no god, yet still feel a genuine desire to help you get your message out to others who might. Under the banner of liberty, we can all see each other as individuals instead of groups. I have family spread pretty wide across the religious realm - a few pagans, a few christians, a few catholics, some spiritualists - all but the christian/catholic group I have been unable to convert or even begin to sway...so any insight that may help me plant a seed that you feel your God will inspire them to hear would help.

[Mark]

Whats amazing is I disagree 100% with what you are saying and believe in no god, yet still feel a genuine desire to help you get your message out to others who might. Under the banner of liberty, we can all see each other as individuals instead of groups. I have family spread pretty wide across the religious realm - a few pagans, a few christians, a few catholics, some spiritualists - all but the christian/catholic group I have been unable to convert or even begin to sway...so any insight that may help me plant a seed that you feel your God will inspire them to hear would help.

That's ok.. my God still Loves you.. :D

try what I already posted.. first..

the scripture that says basically
that a lot of ministers who claim to serve God will find out
on Judgment Day that Jesus isn't happy with how they lead His children..

it's a good place to start..


~~~~~~


Point out these Scriptures when they follow the whim
of whatever they're told by false ministers who know NOT,
The Will Of God.


Matthew 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


~~~~~

Does that remind you of anyone? (ahem.. Pat Robertson.. for example)

Prophesied, cast out devils, many wonderful works..
sounds like a typical day on The 700 Club.. doesn't it?

[BeFranklin]

QFT == "Quoted for Truth"

Thing is.. Satan's plans are WAY more 'off track' than people know..

Somethings have happened that he didn't count on or expect..

He's scrambling to recover as much as he can.. but.. to no avail..

Trust in God.. He has a plan.. and it's working..

just wait for what's next..

Satan's about to be so shamed in front of the whole world..

he'll probably wish he could just go ahead and
crawl into The Pit ahead of time..

I agreed with it myself.

[PredatorOC]

There should be a distinction made between Christians and the evangelical/Pat Robertson crowd. One is quite rational and the other prays to board cut-outs of Bush Jr. One can be reached through reason, the other will have to be pandered to and is thus lost.

[Mark]

.

Oh yeah.. gotta give props to The Holy Spirit..

Remember... or.. if you haven't heard this before..

WE.. as humans.. can only sow the seed..

The Holy Spirit.. makes it grow..

[SeanEdwards]

I think it's a lost cause to try and reach the monolithic Pat Robertson/John Hagee admirers. It's my opinion, as a non-religious person, that most of those folks are not really very Christian at all. At least not in the way I understand Christianity.

I imagine there's one or two real devotees of the teachings of Jesus that could be convinced to support Paul, and I wish you folks the best of luck in reaching out to them.

[wisconsinite]

Didn't read through the all the topics postings, but my belief is that a lot of Christians believe we are fighting a war against Muslims.

I think this is also the case to some degree. Certainly not all, but quite a few Christians have the idea that the US's "war on terror" is in reality a Christian "war vs. Islam". So they're stuck with the notion that ending the war would be tantamount to letting Satan win.

[Paulite5112007]

That's ok.. my God still Loves you.. :D

try what I already posted.. first..

[/B]


The more I think about it the more I feel the best solution may be to point them to the website you have linked in your sig. As it stands, often its an uphill battle discussing anything with them even remotely tide to religion. I had made the mistake of attempting to try and 'convert' them away from their beliefs a long time ago and while they still try to 'save' me on a nearly montly basis, the time I tried has made them skeptical of nearly every conversation I start about sensitive topics...for a while they thought the devil had possessed me :eek: (literally or figuratively, I dont know)

[tttar]

Someone I'm close to, along with countless other hardcore Christians are being persuaded to vote for Huckabee even though he is a "pro-life liberal." We need to influence local Christian groups in a positive way. There are many talk show hosts that throw around pro-Huckabee propaganda as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHLwFjAilnY

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this group of people?

I think there's an easy argument you can make:

Many or most of them will claim the Constitution was based on the Bible. See the Wallbuilders site for that.

It doesn't really matter if that's true (to a point, it probably is, and I really hope so, in spite of what I think of most Christians) - just confront them with their own belief that it is, and ask them how The Huckster Man's (someone please rewrite Sammy Davis Jr's The Candy Man with him in mind; I can't make anything rhyme) actions and positions are closer to that ideal than Ron Paul's.

Blank-out.

This will reveal that they really never believed their own words; they just like to hear the name of Jesus and react.

If you run into one that actually knows how to think, you just might win him over with that.

But Ron Paul will unfortunately lose a lot of support he could have had, because he can't sing, clap, giggle, or coo to save his life. And The Huckster can play the guitar. I mean, COME ON!

Oooh, and doesn't The Huckster make you feel all good inside? And don't forget - with God, ALL things are possible. With Him in your heart, you won't be needing any of these worldly crutches known as principles.

I bet you can't show me where Jesus said for us to understand fractional reserve banking, hyperinflation, paper money, etc.

Why do we even waste our time here?

Seriously, I'd just accuse these hypocrites of being - HYPOCRITES. "You don't believe what you're telling me" (e.g., if they reject the Constitution, they reject their own Bible) is exactly what I'd say to their faces. They'll be shocked, their faith will be challenged, they will have to respond - and be forced into using a technique that they are ill-equipped to use:

Thinking.

And that's where you should have them, because you can do it better.

[Mark]

The more I think about it the more I feel the best solution may be to point them to the website you have linked in your sig. As it stands, often its an uphill battle discussing anything with them even remotely tide to religion. I had made the mistake of attempting to try and 'convert' them away from their beliefs a long time ago

You don't need to convert them.. God does that..

just.. remind them.. what I posted about the false ministers..

that MANY who teach/minister.. are FALSE ministers..


What I posted is the start.. the seed.. that's sown..

Let God take it from there..


1st Corinthians 3:6 again..

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase."

[Mark]

The more I think about it the more I feel the best solution may be to point them to the website you have linked in your sig.

The website is just for everyone to gather together in spirit
at a certain time for prayer and positive thoughts for Dr Paul..

The first 'official' time is Thanksgiving..
or Thanks_taking maybe.. if you're a Native American.. at 9pm EST..

but.. Lord Willing.. there will be more times like that..

and I hope to figure out how to write the code on the site
so people can pick certain times during the week
to gather together in spirit on a regular basis..

The site is still new.. and so much is going on..
I just haven't sat down to read enough to do it yet.. ;)

I've got LOTS of books.. but little time.. :)

[Paulite5112007]

You don't need to convert them.. God does that..



Perhaps I wasn't clear - a long time ago (8 years?) I tried to convert them from Christianity. They had questioned their beliefs and nearly left the church. I was young and not thinking and know now it was a mistake. They appear happy with what they believe and as long as they are, I have no issues with what they believe. So perhaps you will have some new members to your forum!.. as I am afraid me quoting scripture will likely backfire.

[Paulite5112007]

The website is just for everyone to gather together in spirit
at a certain time for prayer and positive thoughts for Dr Paul..

The first 'official' time is Thanksgiving at 9pm EST..

but.. Lord Willing.. there will be more times like that..

and I hope to figure out how to write the code on the site
so people can pick certain times during the week
to gather together in spirit on a regular basis..

The site is still new.. and so much is going on..
I just haven't sat down to read enough to do it yet.. ;)

I've got LOTS of books.. but little time.. :)

I think the idea that others are passionate about Ron Paul who also believe as they do and share a passion in that part of their belief system will go a long way and may spur them to ask me about Ron Paul which is a much better scenerio alltogether as then I can focus on his other issues that are not directly related to religion.

[RobertJ]

Christians think this war stuff is fighting is for Israel plain and simple, so it`ll be hard to convince them otherwise. Technically they are correct, but for the wrong reasons. I never understood why christians are like that. I am a christian myself but I know better. As long as they are brainwashed into believing the "Apocalyse" is some kind of divine happening we wont ever make any headway with them. A lot are gonna vote for RP but the "christian leaders" will throw their support to the biggest zionist scumbag they can find running.

[Mark]

I think it's a lost cause to try and reach the monolithic Pat Robertson/John Hagee admirers. It's my opinion, as a non-religious person, that most of those folks are not really very Christian at all. At least not in the way I understand Christianity.


Have you given up on reaching voters that aren't into RP yet too?

Same thing..

They're just brainwashed..
and we just have to fill their brain up with The Truth..

Mislead Christians are no different than mislead voters..

if you approach them properly.. there's a good chance
that they'll 'see the light'..

[Mark]

I think the idea that others are passionate about Ron Paul who also believe as they do and share a passion in that part of their belief system will go a long way and may spur them to ask me about Ron Paul which is a much better scenerio alltogether as then I can focus on his other issues that are not directly related to religion.

That's a good point..

maybe a way to reach some isn't the.. direct approach.. but..
indirectly..

maybe.. turn them on to RP's True Christian positions..

without mentioning that they're True Christian positions..

and let them slowly figure out that Dr Paul is.. indeed..
promoting TRUE Christian ideals and teachings..

[Mark]

There should be a distinction made between Christians and the evangelical/Pat Robertson crowd. One is quite rational and the other prays to board cut-outs of Bush Jr. One can be reached through reason, the other will have to be pandered to and is thus lost.

Check out my post before this one..

about.. indirectly.. sowing the principles of True Christianity..

[RonPaulFever]

is there really a need....

for all of those...ellipses....

?

[Mark]

I think this is also the case to some degree. Certainly not all, but quite a few Christians have the idea that the US's "war on terror" is in reality a Christian "war vs. Islam". So they're stuck with the notion that ending the war would be tantamount to letting Satan win.

Like.. killing innocent women and children.. ISN't.. what Satan wants..?

Trust me.. that IS something he likes..

[Mark]

is there really a need....

for all of those...ellipses....

?

well, I suppose, I could use, commas, if that will make YOU happy.

Will you post with ellipses if it makes ME happy?

[LibertyRevolution]

I think that the others are getting the Christian endorsement because the leaders of the Christian want us to be at war with the middle east. They see it as their duty to crusade in the holy land and to convert them to freedom.

[Mark]

A lot are gonna vote for RP but the "christian leaders" will throw their support to the biggest zionist scumbag they can find running.

Well, a lot of them will hear Jesus say,

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[Mark]

I think that the others are getting the Christian endorsement because the leaders of the Christian want us to be at war with the middle east. They see it as their duty to crusade in the holy land and to convert them to freedom.

Sad, isn't it?

Sad too, that they'll hear Jesus say:

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[BeFranklin]

One thought:

Franklin's prayer giving during the Constitutional Convention.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19 (this link has considerably more information and background on Benjamin Franklin's prayer than anywhere else)

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/benfranklin.htm
(This link has facsimiles from one of the original books on the convention with Franklin's prayer included)

Mr. President:
[...]
In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.

I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
[...]
--------------------------

[Mark]

One thought:

Franklin's prayer giving during the Constitutional Convention.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19 (this link has considerably more information and background on Benjamin Franklin's prayer than anywhere else)

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/benfranklin.htm
(This link has facsimiles from one of the original books on the convention with Franklin's prayer included)

Mr. President:
[...]
In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.

heh. Have you seen the PaulPrayer.com site?

That's what Original_Intent (forum member) wanted on the page.

Check it out. http://PaulPrayer.com (http://paulprayer.com/)




I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
[...]
And, " if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice,"

don't you think that God is noticing all the innocent
men, women and children,
being maimed and killed on all sides?

[Mark]

I think the idea that others are passionate about Ron Paul who also believe as they do and share a passion in that part of their belief system will go a long way and may spur them to ask me about Ron Paul which is a much better scenerio alltogether as then I can focus on his other issues that are not directly related to religion.

Word. In more ways than one. :)

[BeFranklin]

heh. Have you seen the PaulPrayer.com site?

That's what Original_Intent (forum member) wanted on the page.

Check it out. http://PaulPrayer.com (http://paulprayer.com/)

And, " if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice,"

don't you think that God is noticing all the innocent
men, women and children.
being maimed and killed on all sides?

Interesting, we cut the prayer in the same place. I pulled it off my webpage, since I had the links there.

I'm sure God does notice. The phonies on the religious right have constructed a completely unnatural thing. The original crusades were intimately linked to inquisitions against Christians and discrimination against jews (for instance see the Fourth Lateran council where all three are decreed in the same document).

I could easily go on, because alot of what is going on is intimately tied to false religion of the pedophile priest kind, however this contest won't be won by men, but God (and likewise, haven't people been warning about these things for decades now? What is going on is a move that can't be explained by that).

[tttar]

I've been wondering lately - what difference should any of this really make to a person who's convinced Jesus lives in his heart?

You guys keep bringing up specific points that, IF these people were aware of them, maybe would effect a change in behavior.

But that's just it - ignorance is the easiest and most sure-fire defense to anything you have to bring up.

I knew a church-going Christian who'd die for Jesus, yet didn't know where a neighboring state was, let alone know the first thing about happenings in other countries, not to mention understand any abstract ideas, read Sylvia Browne books because she said she liked Jesus too, etc.

Our arguments mean NOTHING to a person who has Jesus and is happy, and isn't already convinced of them (or who can't understand them).

They will watch people get locked up and assume they must have done something wrong. And Jesus will live in their hearts just the same.

How do you argue with people who are so happily blessed with not understanding what you mean?

[constituent]

huck isn't presenting a message, that's what the t.v. is for.

a glowing messiah in the night.

these people are lost.

[noztnac]

I'm a Christian Libertarian and am supporting Ron Paul. I realize my faith is based on a leap of faith and if others choose to have different beliefs that's fine with me. Many of my best friends are agnostics and atheists. I like Huckabee as a person but I favor a strong separation of church and state and see Huckabee as well... not that. There are many Christians who an honest leader who follows the constitution and who allows people to freely worship or not worship as they please. Unfortunately, my views are probably not in line with most Christians but I'm certainly not the only one.

[BeFranklin]

I'm a Christian Libertarian and am supporting Ron Paul. I realize my faith is based on a leap of faith and if others choose to have different beliefs that's fine with me. Many of my best friends are agnostics and atheists. I like Huckabee as a person but I favor a strong separation of church and state and see Huckabee as well... not that. There are many Christians who an honest leader who follows the constitution and who allows people to freely worship or not worship as they please. Unfortunately, my views are probably not in line with most Christians but I'm certainly not the only one.

The wall of separation if I remember right comes from Roger Williams, who wrote the book "The Bloody Tenent, Of Persecution for Cause of Conscience", which I have a copy of at home. It deals quite a bit with persecuting people for what they believe and why it is wrong, and deals with the crusades. The book is an american classic that is now not read.

Roger Williams is an example of dealing with false doctrine, why things aren't right - for instance starting wars with people or burning them at the stake if their doctrine doesn't match your own, from a biblical perspective. I believe the only effective way of dealing with false doctrine is meeting it with what the scripture actually says (And if you look at history, there was a lot of famous works like this one that did just that). When the doctrine of not persecuting people for thier beliefs was taught, you don't have this. When you start letting the false doctrine creep back in, you start getting its bad fruit again.

[Pete]

I am a Christian and was formerly for the war. When I first became acquainted with Dr. Paul, everything sounded great except his position on Iraq. Basically, I believed the talk about global jihad, and felt that having a strategic presence in the ME was desirable.

What won me over was Ron Paul's 35 Questions that Won't be Asked about Iraq (http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm) from 9/10/2002. These read as though he had a crystal ball, meaning that our 'leaders' were ignoring the same knowledge for political purposes.

Other reasons that convinced me that we don't belong there, and that the threat of terrorism is overblown:

Most fighting is against insurgents and is political in nature.
Iraq is a training ground for al Qaeda, with 15,000 fighters added to their ranks during the war.
The Iraqi Parliament has asked us to leave.
How serious is the White House about terrorism when it encourages open borders?


Radio preacher Chuck Baldwin has written some incredibly insightful articles about Ron Paul's positions and related matters. Here's his index from News with Views:

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwina.htm

Recent favorites:

An Appeal To My Fellow Pastors 11-6-07 (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin412.htm)
Christians Need To Beware Of Mike Huckabee 11-2-07 (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin411.htm)
Christians Should Support Constitutional Government 10-30-07 (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin410.htm)

Years ago I used to catch Chuck Baldwin on the radio frequently while commuting, and always thought that he is one of the best Christian thinkers out there.

[MadOdorMachine]

It's funny that Christians automatically flock to Mike Huckabee because he used to be a Baptist Minister. The truth of the matter is, he wants to continue the war in Iraq, a war that will eventually lead to Armageddon according to the Bible and he has not come out against the National I.D. card, the WTO, NAFTA or the NAU. True Christians would switch their vote to Ron Pual if they actually knew this. It's sad that the two are fighting for the same vote. I do think that if Ron Paul gets the nominee he will win the White House. If any other Republican is on the ballot, Hillary will be our next President.

[AlexMerced]

I would agree, although I don't Huckabee will be anissue beyond Iowa, so we need to make sure to win it, and Huckabee will be an afterthought, Iowa is a touch battle, but one worth winning at least placing 2nd or 3rd in.

[thehittgirl]

I know that it has been said we should stay away from any talk about 'conspiracy theories' - but there are many Christians who believe that the New World Order is prophesied (and warned against) in the bible, and there is a spiritual element to it... it's evil, and will be run by anti-God, evil people. Many believe it will be part of the end times, as prophesied in Revelations.

I know that sounds very 'out there' to non-Christians, but it might be something to talk to Christians about (ones that you know).... because Ron Paul is one of the few candidates who is anti-globalism, so to vote for him is to vote against evil.

Yes that's why I talk about the NAU with them. I guess I expect them to have a little wisdom here. But they are the ones who laugh and call me a fruitcake. What's wrong with this picture?

Well they still believe GWB so I guess I shouldn't be that offended but still.....

All I can do is pray their eyes will be opened.

[LibertyEagle]

Yes that's why I talk about the NAU with them. I guess I expect them to have a little wisdom here. But they are the ones who laugh and call me a fruitcake. What's wrong with this picture?

Well they still believe GWB so I guess I shouldn't be that offended but still.....

All I can do is pray their eyes will be opened.

Do they think Phyllis Schlafly is a fruitcake? She was on the panel at the Values Voter Debate. She also has a whole web page devoted to the NAU.

http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/NAU/

[nexalacer]

I'm running up against that problem as well. A lot of family members are "Christians" but they are very pro war. Doesn't make any sense to me so I am caught off guard a bit by the hypocracy of being a pro war "Christian".

Christians fought wars for centuries... the Crusades, the Catholic-Protestant and Protestant-Protestant wars, and the consistent "war" on rationality. How are you caught off guard?

[Sandra]

I think the Chuck Norris ads will kick Huckabee in the butt. It was funny and I DID enjoy it but it minimizes the seriousness of securing the borders from his standpoint. Funny... but not well thought out.

[disciple]

Alas, Ron Paul is America's last chance to atone for its many sins.

[LibertyEagle]

Radio preacher Chuck Baldwin has written some incredibly insightful articles about Ron Paul's positions and related matters. Here's his index from News with Views:

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwina.htm

Recent favorites:

An Appeal To My Fellow Pastors 11-6-07 (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin412.htm)
Christians Need To Beware Of Mike Huckabee 11-2-07 (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin411.htm)
Christians Should Support Constitutional Government 10-30-07 (http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin410.htm)

Years ago I used to catch Chuck Baldwin on the radio frequently while commuting, and always thought that he is one of the best Christian thinkers out there.

Yes, these are good. Also, Paul's statement of faith. http://www.scribd.com/doc/264398/Ron-Paul-Statement-Of-Faith

[BeFranklin]

Actually, Ron Paul's brother is a minister and endorses him.. :)

[ACJohn]

Share this at Xmas:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

[AlexMerced]

yeah, it's hard to take someone seriously after that chuck norris endorsement, I'm waiting for Thompson to be endorsed by Hank Hill...

[tttar]

Someone I'm close to, along with countless other hardcore Christians are being persuaded to vote for Huckabee even though he is a "pro-life liberal." We need to influence local Christian groups in a positive way. There are many talk show hosts that throw around pro-Huckabee propaganda as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHLwFjAilnY

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this group of people?

Here are a couple of articles you might show to the Hypocrites for Huckabee crowd:

From the left, Brantley's article's first page I probably agree with 100%, and the second lists a few "positives" (e.g., some of his profligate spending went to "good" causes) that are mostly even more negatives for me.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/13/huckabee/index.html

From the right, Hillyer's piece I really don't see much wrong with.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12205

Ask your local Christians to defend these charges. Watch them lie.

See what passes for Christianity these days. Remind them that they are supposed to be representing it. See if they care. Point out that they don't believe their own words the next time they claim to be an example for others to follow.

Check out this site:

http://taxhikemike.org/

And how do Christians explain this pandering to the NEA?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=huckabee+nea

[tremendoustie]

I think to convice people we need to understand where they are coming from. I was actually a war supporter up until about 9 months ago. The mentality is not that killing is ok, or we need revenge for 9-11. The mentality is that we are doing them a favor, and that we need to stay there until the "job is done", so they can have democracy and security. The key for me, at least, was pointing out that the invasion and occupation of any country is obviously going to incite violence against the occupier that would not exist otherwise. The US military is not "taking the bullet" for the iraqi people, nor the people at home. This is violence that is a result of their anger over our occupation, that would not exist otherwise. We should also note what Eisenhower said about pre-emptive war, and that it is not justified to invade countries that have not attacked us in any way.

[CelestialRender]

I'm converting Christians, but not the ones you hear about on the news.

My sister-in-law's family are the scariest, most over-the-top GWB supporters ever, so I'm not even gonna bother with them. I'll just pray that they see the light of day some time this century.

[mmarcman22]

Everyone should know better! I know for a fact the majority of Catholics will vote for Ron Paul.

[ronpaulfollower999]

I'm a Christian who never liked GW Bush or the war in Iraq. I cant figure out why other Christian's do.

I was trying to tell someone I know (who was a Christian) that Ron Paul would bring our troops home from Iraq. He got mad and said, "Why? So the people in Iraq can attack us?"

I think pro-war Christians are just caught up in the propaganda they see on Fox News and what they hear from GW Bush.

Some Christians even think that GW Bush is Jesus, I think he's the anti-Christ. ;)

[wildflower]

Does anyone know of a good article on the just war theory... or something I can show to Christians in regard to the war in Iraq?

Because this is one issue that REALLY frustrates me, to see Christians and 'conservatives' so gung-ho about the war. (especially on a particular forum that i've been posting on lately) I have a feeling that many of them are just cultural Christians, more so than actual practicing Christians, but still...

I want to post something to make them re-think the morality of it.

[IHaveaDream]

The Christian vote will not likely ever go to a candidate who does not vow unwavering support of Israel. Evagelicals are told that Israel is God's "chosen" nation and that anyone who does not stand with Israel is subject to God's wrath. This preached routinely in evangelical churches.

Of course, all the christian-bashing that goes on here doesn't help any, either. You might not share their convictions, but their contributions and their votes are just as valuable as yours. When you slur Christians or Christianity, you're revealing as much about your own faults as anyone else's.

There is room in this movement for Christians. We are about liberty...for everyone.

[wildflower]

The Christian vote will not likely ever go to a candidate who does not vow unwavering support of Israel. Evagelicals are told that Israel is God's "chosen" nation and that anyone who does not stand with Israel is subject to God's wrath. This preached routinely in evangelical churches.

Of course, all the christian-bashing that goes on here doesn't help any, either. You might not share their convictions, but their contributions and their votes are just as valuable as yours. When you slur Christians or Christianity, you're revealing as much about your own faults as anyone else's.

There is room in this movement for Christians. We are about liberty...for everyone.


^ I'm a Christian and I'm supporting Dr. Paul. But to be honest, at first I was hesitant to support him because I had heard that he was 'anti-Israel.' Once I looked into his views more, I realized that he wants to cut off aid to BOTH sides, and the things I had heard about him were not accurate.

btw - I don't know who your post was to. I hope it wasn't to me, because I wouldn't bash Christians. I am just disappointed with my fellow Christians who support Bush and the war.

[tfelice]

I was trying to tell someone I know (who was a Christian) that Ron Paul would bring our troops home from Iraq. He got mad and said, "Why? So the people in Iraq can attack us?"

I think pro-war Christians are just caught up in the propaganda they see on Fox News and what they hear from GW Bush.


Bingo. Since Iraq began we have heard a steady stream of "If we leave they will kill us all here". When that is repeated over and over by Rush, Hannity, Beck, and the rest it becomes fact in the minds of those that don't pay much attention to the situation.

I heard one time years ago Rush say that if the media went on the air day after day talking about the dangers of concrete, within a few weeks time Congress and the American people would be calling for an all out ban on concrete. He's right on this and as we see there is a sizable segment of the GOP base that thinks if we leave Iraq on a Monday, then women in the US will be required to wear burquas by Friday.

[IHaveaDream]

btw - I don't know who your post was to. I hope it wasn't to me, because I wouldn't bash Christians. I am just disappointed with my fellow Christians who support Bush and the war.


Wildflower, I wasn't directing my comments to anyone in particular. I consider my self a Christian as well, albeit a very imperfect Christian. I don't go to church and I'm not into ritual religion. I do believe in God (questioned it for awhile) and I do pray for others and our nation. I was raised in the Bible Belt and grew up around evangelicals. Most of them are good people. Are there hypocrites among them? Of course there are, just like there are hypocrites in politics.

I'm sure there are many Christians here. But you can't blame those who drop in here and then head over to Huckabee with all the immature comments that are posted here about Christians in general.

[disciple]

I'm a Christian who never liked GW Bush or the war in Iraq. I cant figure out why other Christian's do.

I was trying to tell someone I know (who was a Christian) that Ron Paul would bring our troops home from Iraq. He got mad and said, "Why? So the people in Iraq can attack us?"

I think pro-war Christians are just caught up in the propaganda they see on Fox News and what they hear from GW Bush.

Some Christians even think that GW Bush is Jesus, I think he's the anti-Christ. ;)


You may be right.

[thehittgirl]

I'm a Christian who never liked GW Bush or the war in Iraq. I cant figure out why other Christian's do.

I was trying to tell someone I know (who was a Christian) that Ron Paul would bring our troops home from Iraq. He got mad and said, "Why? So the people in Iraq can attack us?"

I think pro-war Christians are just caught up in the propaganda they see on Fox News and what they hear from GW Bush.

Some Christians even think that GW Bush is Jesus, I think he's the anti-Christ. ;)

Ditto to the underlined....I've felt alone for a long time, but not so much anymore. Welcome to the forum :)

[Heather in WI]

Well, I'm a Christian and I voted for George Bush, so I wouldn't give up on them. I am now a die-hard Ron Paul supporter and will probably sit out this election if he loses the nomination.

I don't think screaming at them about Iraq is the way to win them over. I was not drawn to Ron Paul because of his position on Iraq, but have changed my position on Iraq. (Not Afghanistan though ... I think we were justified going into there after Bin Laden.) It was a long process, not something that clicked overnight, and not due to anything protestors were saying. (If anything it was in spite of the rhetoric used by the protestors.) For awhile, I had Reagan ringing in my ears, "The role of the United States military is not for nation building or policing the world." And, finally, it came down to this for me: If you are standing on a playground, and you think the crazy bully is going to hurt you, you aren't justified if you go up to him and deck him first. Simplistic, yes. But, really, it is what we did, right? By undermining their sovereignty, we have undermined our own in the eyes of the world. Since then, I have read Ron Paul's position on Iraq and foreign policy, and am slowly moving toward his understanding. I recently bought his book, "A Foreign Policy of Freedom" and am looking forward to reading it to learn more about his thinking there.

I was originally drawn to Ron Paul because of his position on the Constitution, his privacy & civil liberties positions as well as his opposition to the UN, NATO, NAFTA, and WHO and all of the other globalist initialed entities that undermine American Sovereignty.

I would compare Ron Paul's positions on the above with the Founding Fathers and contrast it with the other candidates.


"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
~Patrick Henry

"Every member of the State ought diligently to read and to study the constitution of his country ... by knowing their rights, they will sooner perceive when they are violated and be the better prepared to defend and assert them."
~Chief-Justice John Jay, 1777

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
~Thomas Jefferson

"To maintain the ascendancy of the Constitution over the law making majority is the great and essential point on which the success of the system must depend. Unless that ascendancy can be preserved, the necessary consequence must be that the laws will supersede the Constitution; and, finally, the will of the Executive, by the influence of his patronage, will supersede the laws."
~John Calhoun, 1833

"There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire."
~John Witherspoon

"Liberty, the greatest of all earthly blessings — give us that precious jewel, and you may take every things else! Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
~Patrick Henry

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other."
~President James Madison


Then, of course, I had to check his position on Abortion. That is my key issue. I would vote for a pro-life green party candidate before I would vote for a pro-choice Republican. Here's a video of Dr. Paul at the National Right to Life Convention. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXZpuIXEzWk)

HTH!

[robert4rp08]

Just point them to: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

[Heather in WI]

Oh, and this is a great article to share:

Another Man From Hope
Who is Mike Huckabee? (http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110010782)

[entropy]

My discussion with fellow Christians is always.......Who Would Jesus Bomb? WWJB

[ThomasJ]

Ron Paul is alot like Jesus.
He has the following of all groups of people from rich to poor.
He has the support of Pastors and Prostitutes.

The reason is because much like Jesus and God, Ron Paul supports freedom. Christians may not aggree with all the things going back to the constitution would mean but at the same time people must be free to make mistakes.
If God allows us to sin, so should christians allow the revocation of the moral laws.
These are probably the big sticking point for many christains as they have been told by preachers and pastors that this is what they should be fighting against. Unfortunatly this is not a perfect world and the application of those laws by men makes things signifigantly worse than without them. Here is a a couple of examples.

The ban on drugs is hurting Americans. The application of the law is causing much more severe problems for society than the habitual use of drugs cuases.
That does not mean that using drugs is moral, it is just as immoral as drinking to excess, the issue is one of hypocracy. The laws against drugs are unjustly applied to people who have not committed a violent crime. In return for these laws we actually see more crime against inocent people. This cuases several side effects.
1. The drug laws themselves force people to break the law to find the drugs. This is a gateway to more violent crime.
2. The resources spent on cathing drug law offenders would be better spent catching pedophiles, murderers, rapists, larcinist etc... (we spend over 60 billion dollars per year on just drug offenders in prison.)
3.Much of the higher cost of drugs is due to the prohibition on them. If drugs are legal we can regulate them. They will still be inexpensive enough that even on minimum wage a person can afford those drugs. This will lower the incidents of burglary, Home invasion etc.
4. If you actually want to protect children from drugs then they should be legalized. Teenagers have an easier time getting Heroin on school grounds than they do getting alchohol from anywhere. No matter how many laws you pass you will never get rid of the dealing on school grounds. Look at prisions they get drugs in there all the time and they have every bit of anything that goes in there checked and re-checked.


This is the same as with Prostatution. Jesus did not shun them even though they are sinners, he welcomed them to the flock, tried to show them the path to salvation. This is the same as what we should be doing throughout the US. There are many reasons logicly that prostatution should be legal.
1. Prostatutes have one of the highest rates of being murdered of any population group or demographic.
2. If it is legal it will be regulated so that Brothels will be in place to protect the women from murderers.
3. The location for Brothels could be relegated to areas where the community approves of it. This also means that towns and citys could say we do not want this here period. Same with states saying such.

All in all Jesus understands that people are sinners, but you cannot remove the freedom of will from those people. It may be wrong what they are doing but outlawing it is unjust. These things should be legal and the church groups should work as hard as they can to bring about salvation in those individuals lives who choose those things. It is acceptable for a state to make those laws but when the federal government does it all freedoms for all people are lost.

What Ron Paul can do for you as a christian is allow states to regulate themselves more fully on these complicated issues like this. So if your state's populace wants to outlaw abortion they can do so in your state. This does not infringe on anyones God given right to freedom. If you are for abortion you can move to another state. On the flip side this would also allow states to regulate themselves when it comes to religion. This would allow states to say that we do not mind prayer in school. Or having public displays of the Bible. This would allow heavily Christian states to make things more according to God's will without infringing on individuals rights and freedoms.

(Here is what I would say to christians to swing them to Ron Paul. I am no longer a christian. Much like the founding fathers I have converted to Agnostic)

[thehittgirl]

My discussion with fellow Christians is always.......Who Would Jesus Bomb? WWJB

That's good!!! I have a bumper sticker that says that and a TShirt too. I wore it to VBS this summer-lol. Hubby wants me to wear it to church...I just can't, I'm not that brave.

[wildflower]

btw - I don't know who your post was to. I hope it wasn't to me, because I wouldn't bash Christians. I am just disappointed with my fellow Christians who support Bush and the war.


Wildflower, I wasn't directing my comments to anyone in particular. I consider my self a Christian as well, albeit a very imperfect Christian. I don't go to church and I'm not into ritual religion. I do believe in God (questioned it for awhile) and I do pray for others and our nation. I was raised in the Bible Belt and grew up around evangelicals. Most of them are good people. Are there hypocrites among them? Of course there are, just like there are hypocrites in politics.

I'm sure there are many Christians here. But you can't blame those who drop in here and then head over to Huckabee with all the immature comments that are posted here about Christians in general.

Thanks for your reply. I didn't know there were people who had done that... but if so, that's unfortunate.



Ditto to the underlined....I've felt alone for a long time, but not so much anymore. Welcome to the forum :)

Count me in as another Christian who never really liked Bush. And nice to meet you guys. :)




Oh, and this is a great article to share:

Another Man From Hope
Who is Mike Huckabee? (http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110010782)


Thanks Heather, for the links and info.

[Anti Federalist]

tttar wrote:


I bet you can't show me where Jesus said for us to understand fractional reserve banking, hyperinflation, paper money, etc.

Who were the "money changers" Christ drove from the temple, in one of his few, if only, acts of of anger and rage?

They were the fractional bankers, "pay day" loan hustlers and currency speculators of his day.

[thePhilosopher]

I think Huckabee has more name recognition than RP, and I think it comes down to that. He was a minister, too, so that's always helpful when getting Christian votes. If RP wanted to, he could be getting those Christian Right votes if he was more open about his faith and more explicit on being pro-life. But that isn't his focus, its about getting this country back on track by remembering that thing we call the Constitution.

But the other Christians I know are very open to RP's message when they hear it, even though they like Huckabee or some other candidate. The Christian vote isn't lost, and we're only losing it insofar as people aren't talking to Christians about RP.

[tttar]

tttar wrote:



Who were the "money changers" Christ drove from the temple, in one of his few, if only, acts of of anger and rage?

They were the fractional bankers, "pay day" loan hustlers and currency speculators of his day.

Most Christians are unable to make such connections. All you have to do is use a different word, and they're lost.

I meant those examples exactly as I said them - as examples of government-instituted practices.

Romans 13: 1-7 appears to tell them that every single thing that enters a bureaucrat's head is a good thing (unless it's something they happen to understand - fat chance!), so the only remaining issue is how much a candidate talks about Jesus. And the Huckster sure knows how to play that game.

[NewEnd]

If you are an atheist like me, dont try to convince pro war christians.

Try to convince anti-war christians, who may very well be democrats.

Only christians can convince other christians, IMHO. The opinion of an atheist is pretty much useless. Ans no christian likes an atheist telling them what their religion represents.

Emphasize Ron Paul was an Ob/Gyn and delivered 4000 babies.

[PeacePlan]

Get this and show it to them.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=39183

[tttar]

If you are an atheist like me, dont try to convince pro war christians.

Try to convince anti-war christians, who may very well be democrats.

Only christians can convince other christians, IMHO. The opinion of an atheist is pretty much useless. Ans no christian likes an atheist telling them what their religion represents.

Emphasize Ron Paul was an Ob/Gyn and delivered 4000 babies.

I'm not an atheist, and don't see how there need to be any barriers to talking to anyone.

Christians want to set an example for you.

Attack their hypocrisies (be very specific in this), and you will force them to engage you in a debate. They will lose, and this will bother them.

They'll go crying to their circles about how someone said something that they just KNOW was wrong - but that still stumped them.

That person will have to give them a bs answer. And if they can tell it's bs, they will start questioning if they were right about what they said to you, and be a little less certain the next time they see you.

[vroomery]

I am a christian, and for me the biggest issue is our civil liberties. Many christians just don't put the pieces of the puzzle together in their head but the whole problem with Mike Huckabee and all the other republican candidates is that they not only have their own opinions, but they love to impose those opinions on the whole country. I suppose defining marriage as between a man and woman at the federal level could be put under this spot. Case and point, the new gay rights legislation. If/when this is put into place, it will be illegal for pastors to preach against homosexuality from the pulpit. This means that you can't read from Genesis about Sodom and Gamorah anymore. The problem then isn't the personal beliefs of the president, but whether or not they want to impose them on us, because it is just as likely that the liberal politicians could push their agenda on us. Its fine and dandy when our agenda is whats being pushed, but its not so fun when its someone else's mess being put on YOU. Religious persecution is not that far away and I'm almost afraid that it will be too late before everyone figures that out.

[freedomissexy]

I don't understand the affinity that many American Christians have toward authoritarianism. Though I do know quite a few Catholics supporting Paul.

[Corydoras]

no christian likes an atheist telling them what their religion represents.

Thank you. I appreciate your sensitivity. I wish more atheists on the boards understood that. In fact, I wish more Christians understood the diversity of belief among Christians.

[savonarola]

I think our best bet is finding issues that Huckabee isn't so Christian-like on. Chuck Norris endorsed Huck because he's a Christian.

Theft. He steals money to pay for his social programs. That's not very christian. Honestly, the christian church needs to change, not our rhetoric about politics. Ron Paul IS the christian candidate. Look on Lew Rockwell's site for an open letter to protestants and another to catholics. There's also one to Jews, too. All from people within the religions who support Ron Paul.

As long as Christians believe they can infuse morality with force, they're not worth talking to.


and i'm a Christian.

[Corydoras]

I don't understand the affinity that many American Christians have toward authoritarianism.

They have authoritarian tendencies because to be a Christian in America, you actually have to bother to believe, and then to put some effort into it. It isn't just a matter of, going to church on Sunday is what everybody in town does because it's their chance to get together afterwards and gossip and make business deals. The more prevalent a faith is in a community, the more it attracts lukewarm believers.



Though I do know quite a few Catholics supporting Paul.

I really don't think Catholic Christianity is particularly authoritarian compared to the forms of Christianity that are sola scriptura. Catholics can choose between the perspectives held by Dorothy Day and Josemaria Escriva, for example, which barely resemble one another.

[ionlyknowy]

I am a Christian, I was raised Christian, my whole family is Christian.

The way that I came to Paul:

Either CNN or Fox mentioned Paul back in September. They said that he was very popular on the internet. That made me curious, so I googled him. I then came across the youtube videos and couldn’t stop watching them.

Before Paul, I was under the impression, as many Christians are, that although the war in Iraq was a blunder/accident enacted under bad information, if we leave, Iran will take over Iraq and threaten Israel.

Christians identify with Jews and Israel because Jews are our God's chosen people even though they do not believe in Jesus. In the old testament God chose the Jews as his people.. the entire old testament of the bible is about the Jewish people and their kings and wars.

In the end time or Revelations in the bible, it is written that Israel will be attacked but God will save it.

Also, there is a theory circulating in SOME Christian circles that Islam will one day be the worshippers of the Anti-Christ. The Koran has been compared to the Bible and in each book the "end times" are predicted in strikingly similar fashion. Except they are conversely related. The Christians believe that there will be an Anti-Christ and a false prophet. This false prophet will claim to be the return of Jesus and will mislead many Christians. Christians also believe that the real Jesus will then come back after the tribulation.

The Islamic Koran, believe that the Imam Al-Mahdi will come and Jesus will also come back. (So both religions believe that Jesus will come back to earth.) BUT, the Islam Jesus is the Christians false prophet. Islam believes that Jesus will come back and claim that he never wanted to be worshipped and that everyone should then worship the Imam Al-Mahdi (which is the Christian Anti-Christ).

In says in the Bible Revelations that in the end times MANY Christians will be deceived, and it then goes on to warn of this false prophet that will claim to be the return of Jesus. It says in the Bible, that if someone comes to you and says "here is Jesus" DO NOT believe them. It even says that this false prophet will do many miracles. But to not fall prey to the false prophet. The Bible says that when Jesus returns, you will know, and no one will have to tell you that he has come.

Don't believe me, then see for yourself, this youtube video has over 200,000 views. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAB90plPqxo

This is why SOME Christians are such a hard sell on nonintervention. They believe that Islam is the Vessel in which the Anti-Christ will use to further his goals on earth. And it is Christian duty to be be conscious of this Vessel. And to be against the Anti-Christ.

By the US leaving Iraq and leaving the country open to an Iranian invasion, this will further spread the Islamic rule that is prevalent in Iran and many other Middle-East countries.

I still believe that all of this is very plausible... as Islam is gaining traction in Europe and other countries. It is the fastest growing religion in the world and will soon surpass Christianity as the religion with the greatest numbers. If it has not already done so. Although, I do not believe people whose religion is Islam are bad people or that they have bad intentions. I believe that they are simply misled, by the best deceiver this world has ever seen. As I am sure they believe the same about me.

The ONLY way to convert Christians with these beliefs to Ron Paul, is to point out that if we were to sustain this pace of military operations, the US will go further into debt, and with the weakened dollar the US could collapse from within.

If we continue down this path the US will cease to exist based solely on economic problems, the depression on steroids if you will.

So it is better to pull out of Iraq, save the US economy, and survive to another day when we can still be here to function as a world power poised to do whatever is necessary to survive. Or, maybe even help Israel, in the future (even though I know that Ron Paul would be against helping Israel).

[Corydoras]

This is why Christians are such a hard sell on nonintervention. They believe that Islam is the Vessel in which the Anti-Christ will use to further his goals on earth. And it is Christian duty to be opposed to this Vessel.

PLEASE do not lump all Christians together. Christians do NOT all believe this.

[ionlyknowy]

PLEASE do not lump all Christians together. Christians do NOT all believe this.

I went ahead and changed what I wrote to better represent what I meant. The article did indicate in some areas that this was only a view of some circles in the Christian community. Although the sentence you quoted did not indicate this.

Oh and can people please try to be more positive.. All of the negativity lately is very unmotivating...

[Paul4Prez]

A few ideas for persuading Christian voters to back Ron Paul:

Point out that Ron Paul has been faithful to his oath to defend the Constitution -- unlike most of the other candidates out there. Mike Huckabee has threatened to initiate war on Iran based solely on his own judgment, in direct violation of the Constitution.

Some Christian voters are leaning toward Huckabee because he backs Constitutional amendments outlawing abortion and defining marriage, but those Amendments are very unlikely to pass, since they need a 2/3 vote in Congress. The President has no say in Constitutional Amendments anyway. Ron Paul's approach of letting the states decide takes the matter out of the federal courts.

While Mike Huckabee was governor of Arkansas, state spending increased by 65% in 8 years. This is actually a shade faster than federal spending increased under George W. Bush! We don't need another big-government conservative.

[tremendoustie]

I think all that end-times theory stuff is irrelevant. In my opinion most Christians who agree with the war do so for the same reason that other people do: They believe we are helping the Iraqis, they believe it will be a mess if we leave, and that we have the responsibility to "finish what we started". The most important thing we can point out is that occupation itself causes insurgency, and that an occupying force will always be part of the problem, not the solution. Also, to some the question, "how would the US react if it were being occupied -- wouldn't it likely lead to violence" may be useful -- the golden rule. I've found it helpful to point out that Iraqis want us to leave, and that they should have a right to decide if they want foreigners occupying their country. Paul's "35 questions" are also good to point out, IMO. I'm a Christian, and these were the kind of points that made me wake up regarding the war. I'm sure people exist as described above, but all of the Christians I know form their opinions for much more down to earth reasons.

[scrosnoe]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40271 - forum thread that discusses this
comments on freedom of the press in Israel are interesting here and in the wikipedia link

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124307 - article that mentions the tape

then Listen Now or Download to hear the tape
it is discussing Ron Paul and Israel and looks like it is 46 mins in length
first half about RP / second half more general and comments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arutz_7 about the station and their leadership

[Midnight77]

Capturing the Christian vote would be convincing them that we are better off letting Israel fight their own battles in this Holy War to protect our people so we can live safer lives.

Sadly, I feel many of them are still warped by the fear spread on TV that the terrorists attack us because we are "free".

[GoneResistance]

I'm running up against that problem as well. A lot of family members are "Christians" but they are very pro war. Doesn't make any sense to me so I am caught off guard a bit by the hypocracy of being a pro war "Christian".

I don't think they are as much pro war as they are pro obedience. They believe doubting the President or questioning authority is disrespectful. If Bush says we need to have a war, by God, it must be true!

My mother has lost friends at church already for supporting Ron Paul instead of one of the "acceptable" Republicans. Sounds dumb, I know.

[sharedvoice]

Well, anyone remember WACO? What a disaster that was when the Feds marched in with armored tanks and killed those people. That's what happens when you have a Liberal from Arkansas... aka "Clintonians" Tax Hike Mike is a BIG government liberal on the wrong ticket.

[The Dane]

Reply to falacious argumentation:

1) The heaven and the hell is not nessasarily manifesting only after we die.

2) The Koran was revealed to Muhammed as the best way for arab people to worship God. THATS RIGHT, THEY HAVE THE SAME GOD AS WE DO, JUST WORSHIP HIM THROUGH A DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS TRADITION AND INTREPETATION. :eek:

3) The jewish way of worshipping God is also different than the Christian way. The Old testament gives the context of the new testament, but it is in no way real Christianity. Real Christianity is based on the teaching of the true CHRIST. Given in the new testament.
Jews do not belive in the true Christ, so chistians should not believe every word in the old testament is the truth either. Because its not!

Jesus leads us through the path of Peace and Knowledge to God our fathers Kingdom, here on earth and after life.

"Dont pervert the faith. Dont damn yourself and us all through hating and killing innocent people."

/end rant

[Thomas Paine]

Huckabee may do well in Iowa but his campaign will run out of gas leaving Iowa since it barely has a million dollars. A million dollars is not enough to compete in NH, Michigan, Nevada, and South Carolina. Once Huckabee drops out of the race by end of January, his supporters will be looking for a new home so it is imperative that RP supporters be prepared to welcome them and not do anything to jeopardize their future support between now and the time that Huckabee drops out of the race. Heck, Huckabee is probably a prospective VP running mate for Ron Paul when the good doctor wins the GOP nomination.

[Thomas Paine]

Whoa! I just read some of the previous posts. Don't try to lump all Christians together. I am a staunch Protestant (Seventh Day Adventist, if you must know) and I think it is because of my denomination that I am more open to a candidate like Ron Paul. My religious belief system is based on the concept of "liberty of conscience." Therefore, by nature I question orthodox belief systems (political as well as religious) and strive to reach my conclusions after thoughtful analysis.

[thehittgirl]

If any Christian wants to come over, I am exhausted-lol.

http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=541606&func=3&channel=People%20Connection&refresh=true

These are the Bush supporters. One accused me of being forceful of my ideas of RP. I'm like WTH?????

The only thing I've been strong on is the NAU and CFR. You'd think being Christians, they would know this or at least not be so closeminded. :rolleyes:

Edit: Be nice, their ignorance will make you angry, like on Hannity. It's supposed to be a fellowship board, but the specific thread is "Are Fires God Judgment?"

[Ozwest]

Unfortunately, Christians who study the scriptures carefully, and understand the Bible as it is written, are outnumbered by organized followers of Religious sects, manipulated by self-serving, power seeking, zealots who advocate war and dream of Armegeddon.

The whole Planet can only but thank this "block" of self righteous Christians for insuring that George Bush continues his "enlightened" leadership.

Sorry to be direct, but seeing Religious leaders endorse Guilliani, Thompson, and Huckabee offers no solace, and illustrates my sharp scepticism.

Seperation of Church and State?

[ionlyknowy]

Huckabee may do well in Iowa but his campaign will run out of gas leaving Iowa since it barely has a million dollars. A million dollars is not enough to compete in NH, Michigan, Nevada, and South Carolina. Once Huckabee drops out of the race by end of January, his supporters will be looking for a new home so it is imperative that RP supporters be prepared to welcome them and not do anything to jeopardize their future support between now and the time that Huckabee drops out of the race. Heck, Huckabee is probably a prospective VP running mate for Ron Paul when the good doctor wins the GOP nomination.

I agree with you, and if we want to make sure these voters are welcome to the Ron Paul camp with open arms we MUST stop criticizing their faith, twisting their faith or denying their faith. like the posts below.........


Reply to falacious argumentation:

1) The heaven and the hell is not nessasarily manifesting only after we die.

2) The Koran was revealed to Muhammed as the best way for arab people to worship God. THATS RIGHT, THEY HAVE THE SAME GOD AS WE DO, JUST WORSHIP HIM THROUGH A DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS TRADITION AND INTREPETATION. :eek:

3) The jewish way of worshipping God is also different than the Christian way. The Old testament gives the context of the new testament, but it is in no way real Christianity. Real Christianity is based on the teaching of the true CHRIST. Given in the new testament.
Jews do not belive in the true Christ, so chistians should not believe every word in the old testament is the truth either. Because its not!

Jesus leads us through the path of Peace and Knowledge to God our fathers Kingdom, here on earth and after life.

"Dont pervert the faith. Dont damn yourself and us all through hating and killing innocent people."

/end rant




Unfortunately, Christians who study the scriptures carefully, and understand the Bible as it is written, are outnumbered by organized followers of Religious sects, manipulated by self-serving, power seeking, zealots who advocate war and dream of Armegeddon.

The whole Planet can only but thank this "block" of self righteous Christians for insuring that George Bush continues his "enlightened" leadership.

Sorry to be direct, but seeing Religious leaders endorse Guilliani, Thompson, and Huckabee offers no solace, and illustrates my sharp scepticism.

Seperation of Church and State?

Anything that I have said in this thread has been aimed to help people maybe understand where SOME Christians are coming from. And I have done this because a lot of Ron Paul supporters would not know this because they are Athiest or Agnostic. And just maybe by me giving this info, it will help such people convert a Christian to RP. You may have a view about what Christianity is or how you think others should believe, or how you think Christians are misled or whatever.... but please realize that sooner or later if you continue to post IN YOUR FACE posts to Christians on these boards then it will only do harm to the campaign. You may even run off Christians from supporting Ron Paul. So play nice and learn to accept others views and to not always be so quick to tell them they are wrong...even if you highly disagree..

[hasan]

why are we discussing religion in a ron paul forum in the first place? focus on ron paul's campaign and nothing else in this forum

[thehittgirl]

why are we discussing religion in a ron paul forum in the first place? focus on ron paul's campaign and nothing else in this forum

Some feel the Christian vote is important.

[hasan]

Some feel the Christian vote is important.

it is important. whats not important is discussing the intricacies of the faith and trying to prove one religion is better than the other and thats what we are doing here. we need votes from all demographics not just christians. lets not make religion the issue and make the constitution the issue here we'll get many more votes that way

[thehittgirl]

it is important. whats not important is discussing the intricacies of the faith and trying to prove one religion is better than the other and thats what we are doing here. we need votes from all demographics not just christians. lets not make religion the issue and make the constitution the issue here we'll get many more votes that way

I can agree. The thing is one has to understand how they think, and what appeals to them. I'm a Christian and I'm still trying to understand, why this war in Iraq appeals to them. Boggles my mind.

[Ozwest]

I agree with you, and if we want to make sure these voters are welcome to the Ron Paul camp with open arms we MUST stop criticizing their faith, twisting their faith or denying their faith. like the posts below.........







Anything that I have said in this thread has been aimed to help people maybe understand where SOME Christians are coming from. And I have done this because a lot of Ron Paul supporters would not know this because they are Athiest or Agnostic. And just maybe by me giving this info, it will help such people convert a Christian to RP. You may have a view about what Christianity is or how you think others should believe, or how you think Christians are misled or whatever.... but please realize that sooner or later if you continue to post IN YOUR FACE posts to Christians on these boards then it will only do harm to the campaign. You may even run off Christians from supporting Ron Paul. So play nice and learn to accept others views and to not always be so quick to tell them they are wrong...even if you highly disagree..

O.K. my post might have been strongly worded, but please don't hide behind a facade of moral indignation, accusing me of "running off Christians," and "doing harm to the campaign," and not "playing nice."

When I was a Christian (30 years ago) I stood straight and center.

I've changed my mind.My previous post is reincarnated...

[max]

Ron paul will have a hard time with many "Christians"...

Why?


Because RP actually LIVES the christian life instead of just wearing false christianity on his political slave

[max]

Huckabee may do well in Iowa but his campaign will run out of gas leaving Iowa since it barely has a million dollars. A million dollars is not enough to compete in NH, Michigan, Nevada, and South Carolina. Once Huckabee drops out of the race by end of January, his supporters will be looking for a new home so it is imperative that RP supporters be prepared to welcome them and not do anything to jeopardize their future support between now and the time that Huckabee drops out of the race. Heck, Huckabee is probably a prospective VP running mate for Ron Paul when the good doctor wins the GOP nomination.

He may be short on cash but the Establishment media is doing his advertisng for him

[Heather in WI]

The Koran was revealed to Muhammed as the best way for arab people to worship God. THATS RIGHT, THEY HAVE THE SAME GOD AS WE DO, JUST WORSHIP HIM THROUGH A DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS TRADITION AND INTREPETATION. :eek:


This, obviously, isn't the place to debate this, but I've heard this more and more lately, and felt compelled to speak up.

The Bible reveals that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not merely a prophet; He is God in human flesh. The Quran says that Allah has no son and is not a father. Allah is not the Father of Jesus Christ. Allah and Jehovah are not the same.

[mconder]

I think the Armageddon factor plays heavily with Christians. They want someone who will lead, what they view a Christian America, into battle against a Muslim Anti-Christ. Huckabee plays into the desired persona very well with his "Islamo fascist threat" talk.

It's too bad Christians can't see the real threat to their religion coming from the Globalist elite crowd, rather than the Muslims.

[Ozwest]

Today in Australia we elected a Prime Minister. I could care less, because your outcome will effect me in Australia and my family in America more than what happens here.

Our elections and political system may not be perfect, but Religion has no influence on the outcome of our elections, although we are a Christian nation, religion mixed with politics is frowned upon, and we will not have a bar of it.

You guys do not practice separation of Church and State, and Religion is interpreted too literally.

You're freaking the rest of the World out.

[Heather in WI]

PLEASE do not lump all Christians together. Christians do NOT all believe this.

I totally agree.

I know for many the big issue is Iraq. And, they want that to be the big issue for everyone. But, sad as this might be, it's just not. I think in the latest poll I read, illegal immigration was ranked as the highest concern for Republicans.

I think the key is meeting people where they are and speaking to them about Ron Paul's beliefs on that issue.

[Ozwest]

I think the Armageddon factor plays heavily with Christians. They want someone who will lead, what they view a Christian America, into battle against a Muslim Anti-Christ. Huckabee plays into the desired persona very well with his "Islamo fascist threat" talk.

It's too bad Christians can't see the real threat to their religion coming from the Globalist elite crowd, rather than the Muslims.

That is a true Christian attitude as I interpret it.

[Ozwest]

Reading and studying the Bible, and using your God given gifts...

[Thurston Howell III]

At the values voter debate Paul referred to Jesus as the Prince of Peace and was soundly boo'd, by church people!

Nuff said.

[disciple]

If Christians but knew what Jesus actually taught, every one of them would support Ron Paul.

[fedup100]

The Christian vote truly is a major problem. Here is the problem in a nut shell. ISRAEL!! = AIPAC=John Hagee!!!

Bush thinks he has a hotline to GOD. John Hagee and other preachers like him are following the script of the anti-christ and taking the Christians right down to the pit of hell with them.

The spirit of anti-Christ has been loosed as prophesied in the book of revelation. We are in the end time according to the Bible. I know this is hard for you non Christians and agnostic to understand.

It is even harder for a Christian to understand ON PURPOSE and unless you get this, you can't hope to persuade a Christian to vote for Paul.

The Bible says that "we are to seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling", in other words read study, pray and let the spirit of God show you the truth.

Most Christians DO NOT HEED that warning, they just show up on Sunday and drink down any dribble that a preacher shoves down their throats.

What is the spirit of anti-christ?? You must know this in order to speak to them. I first noticed it was here for sure, when Mel Gibson was trying to release the movie "The Passion Of The Christ".

All of a sudden, the jewish world went nuts and absolutely demanded it not be released and went so far as to have the Pope exonerate them for the crucifixtion of Christ.

After that in America I noticed the many attempts to take Jesus out of Christmas, then the schools, then the Chaplin's in the military were told they could not pray in the name of JESUS.

THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST!! In other words, Satan will now do anything he can to make sure the name of Jesus and the true Christian teachings are covered, hidden,stopped. WHY?

The Bible says the name of Jesus is the name above all names, it says that Demons tremble at the mention of that name. The name of Jesus has all power, and Satan will do all he can now to make sure it is not spoken.

Now I know so many of you are scratching your head, you asked why you can't reach the Christian and I am going to tell you, it may not be the answer you want to hear, but I know it is the the real reason you cannot get through to most of them.

As far as those of you that are Jews, please have an open mind. You must try as hard as a Christian to understand the truth. All of you that are Jewish, and I mean taught from the Talmud and Cabala, you too must have an open mind, you must try hard to see the truth and if you do nothing else, just take the position that there is a small probability you have been taught in error too.

If you can't do that, then I am sorry, I am going to tell the truth no matter what it is or where it goes. Just remember the the Phrase "I am offended", is code for NO FREE SPEECH!

Millions of people have their eyes fixed on Jerusalem. According to countless prophecy teachers, Israel is "the land where events must unfold in a specific way for Jesus to return" (Time magazine, July 1, 2001, p. 43). Is it really? Does the book of Revelation place the modern nation of Israel at the center of end-time events? Why does the New Testament refer to two Israels—"Israel after the flesh" (1 Cor. 10:18) and the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16) centered in Jesus Christ? When it comes to end-time Bible prophecy, could Christians be looking at the wrong Israel to understand the coming events and issues?

Christians must wake up!! Study the facts before you blindly support Bush and the war Hawks. You are supporting the wrong Israel. Many precious Jews are supporting the wrong Israel and do not know it....WAKE UP!! Study this for yourself!!

The end time prophecies says that in that end time, "even the very elect will be deceived" The very elect are those who belive in Jesus, and now they are following John Hagee and George Bush right into world war three because they have been taught a lie in the Churches.

I suggest that those of you who really want to try to turn this thing around as far as Christians and support for Dr. Paul to consider this. Bring together Jews for Ron Paul, together with the true "Torah Jews" and a Christian Pastor like Chuck Baldwin. Now put together a 5 or 10 minute video with these people specifically touching this subject of Israel and the Bible.

Now use this to give to the Christians. Friends this is an explosive and complex issue that must be addressed with care, or only the true Christians, that read the Bible and think for themselves will ever vote for Ron Paul.

We must put this together soon and quickly or the confused Christians will once again vote for a Huckabee, the last President of the USA that will take all of us to our doom.

I have a few links below for those who truly wish to know the truth and understand what we are up against.

http://www.jews4ronpaul.org/home

http://www.rense.com/general58/zzin.htm

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.conspiracyworld.com/index0050.htm

[url]http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm

[Myerz]

Pray for Dr. Dobson and the Church.

[RPFTW!]

Did we ever have the Christian vote to begin with?

[disciple]

Did we ever have the Christian vote to begin with?

A lot of Christians are waking up to the lies of G.W. Bush and the neocons, so there is hope, yes.

[tnvoter]

Did we ever have the Christian vote to begin with?

I'm a devout Christian, and YES we have a very strong Christian support effort for Dr. Paul, basically right now it's just split 3 ways with thompson(about the only thing keeping Thompson at all in the game btw), huckabee and US. We have more Christians voting for Dr. Paul than they think- not everyone can be as vocal about their support.

[disciple]

Christians who truly understand and follow the message of Jesus will support Ron Paul. There is no way around it.

[jenninlouisiana]

The evangelical vote is vastly over-rated. I say that as a Christian.

Huckabee is a minister/pastor something like that... he's going to get their votes if that's all they are looking for.

[Teenforpaul08]

Is it just me, or is some of Huckabee's positions are "suddenly" similar to paul's?

[RPFTW!]

Is it just me, or is some of Huckabee's positions are "suddenly" similar to paul's?

Yeah its driving me crazy, he's stolen all our ideas!

[ladyliberty]

I'm a devout Christian, and YES we have a very strong Christian support effort for Dr. Paul, basically right now it's just split 3 ways with thompson(about the only thing keeping Thompson at all in the game btw), huckabee and US. We have more Christians voting for Dr. Paul than they think- not everyone can be as vocal about their support.


www.christiansforronpaul.com

[JohnM]

Christians are a truly varied bunch. Some of us are greens, some are socialists, some are libertarians, some are neo-cons, and some have no political philosophy at all. There are Christians for Obama, there are Christians for Clinton.

If you want to win over a Christian, then you find out what kind of Christian you are dealing with. (Some will never come round.)

Most will like the fact that Ron Paul is anti-abortion. The fact that he believes in religious liberty is also important.

But I think the really impressive thing about him is his personal integrity - he supports unpopular causes - he says what he thinks is right even when no-one else stands with him - he is indebted to no special interest groups.

[fireinme]

I am a Christian on fire and I support Ron Paul I think that most Christians are easily deceived. As far as Ron Paul and Christianity go he does not like the political pandering of Christianity.


"I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful...." http://www.ronpaul2008.com/homeschoolers/statement-of-faith

[r3volution]

could this help ?
MSNBC : Pope calls for end to Iraq war .
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21947852/

[RPFTW!]

could this help ?
MSNBC : Pope calls for end to Iraq war .
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21947852/

Yes it could!

We need to spread this far and wide! Catholics need to hear this, this is excellent news, I am proud of the pope, maybe he's not as evil as he looks.

[jacksit]

I would echo some of the comments I've seen on this board about the importance of recognizing the different types of Christianity. Over 90% of Americans identify themselves as Christians, and obviously they do not have the same views on many issues. In general, there are vast differences in political opinion between Catholics and Protestants (and even descendants of Catholics and Protestants). The theology of Protestantism is much more self-centered in that it tends to be more focused on personal salvation and self-righteousness (salvation through faith alone)) than Catholicism, which is more communal, traditional and focused on concern for both here and the hereafter (salvation faith and good works).

And the different sects of Protestantism also have significant influences on political choices. Baptists, traditionally, were the strongest supporters of separation of church and state (the "wall" of separation comes from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist congregation). Presbyterians in general have had a more messanic view of the connection of church and state ("America should be a city on a hill"/Wilson's foreign policy, etc). Obviously, the present denominations don't reflect their traditional roots (Southern Baptists tend to be highly pro-war,pro-Bush and liberal Presbyterians tend not to support the war).

Obviously, this is a gross oversimplification, and I encourage everyone to look into the subject more for themselves. I'm just trying to point out that the influence of Christianity on a person's political views will differ based on which religious tradition they come from. I've been able to convince people of many different Christian denominations about the merits of Ron Paul, and I think that knowing something about where a person is coming from is helpful.

[weatherbill]

http://ronpaul.meetup.com/69/files/

click the RP comparison flye r08

this flyer is awsome and covers all the candidates including a "christian alert" on Huckabee.

[yaz]

could this help ?
MSNBC : Pope calls for end to Iraq war .
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21947852/

Maybe Catholics, not other denominations though.

[Hope]

Maybe Catholics, not Christians.

Um, Catholics are Christians. Of the 2 billion Christians in the world, over half of them are Catholic.

[yaz]

Um, Catholics are Christians. Of the 2 billion Christians in the world, over half of them are Catholic.

Well a lot of the things from that domination in my view are against the Bible but I corrected it.

[ removed copyrighted text 8/31/08 ]

To me it's as much as a fallacy as saying that Mormonism is the same as Christianity.

[Magsec]

From experience, I know that some Protestant denominations don't like the generic Christian stuff that's thrown around. Also, they aren't so militant in setting forth their ideas/agendas like other denominations are always doing.

But most Christians don't yearn for meat, or the heavy stuff that challenges them to progress spiritually. They like things light and easy when it comes to their religion. Huckabee's light and easy because he constantly professes his faith. That's not too bad, but Protestants find a humble Christian more appealing, and RP is more than humble in his faith. We gotta make them realize that somehow.

[Hope]

Protestants saying that Catholicism isn't truly Christian would be like Wii saying that the original Nintendo wasn't a real video game.

[yaz]

not really. anyway back to the point. we need to spread the message to all the churches that ron paul is their man.

[bomybomy]

Well a lot of the things from that domination in my view are against the Bible but I corrected it.


reasons:


http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

To me it's as much as a fallacy as saying that Mormonism is the same as Christianity.

Ha ha....I used to travel around with a bunch of street preachers. Well, I'll keep it short, just didn't think I'd see a link to THAT website on an RP Forum!

Ha!

Praise the Lord, brother!

[yaz]

Just trying to state what I think is obvious.

[literatim]

main reasons are because he will not support a constitutional amendment for ,
ban on gay marriage .
ban on abortion .
there you have it , we all know Ron is personally strongly against abortion (maybe even gay marriage to but dont quote me) but he believes the states should amend there own constitutions or pass appropriate laws to ban them because that is not the feds job .

We do not know his stance about a constitutional amendment to ban abortion because no one has thought to ask him.

[Ibtz]

I'm a fairly traditional minded Catholic who doesn't know many like minded people who support Ron Paul. I just haven't had much of a chance to delve into politics right after Mass. His policies make perfect sense to me however; much of it complements natural law quite nicely.

I think Mark Shea, a pretty popular Catholic author and apologist seems to like Ron Paul from what I've read on his blog.

[yaz]

We do not know his stance about a constitutional amendment to ban abortion because no one has thought to ask him.

Actually he has said many times that there is no need for one.

[dircha]

I'm a fairly traditional minded Catholic who doesn't know many like minded people who support Ron Paul. I just haven't had much of a chance to delve into politics right after Mass. His policies make perfect sense to me however; much of it complements natural law quite nicely.

I think Mark Shea, a pretty popular Catholic author and apologist seems to like Ron Paul from what I've read on his blog.

Congressman Paul subscribes generally to the traditional Christian Just War Doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war) (http://www.catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp) and has vocally spoken of it in debates, interviews, as well as on the House floor.

This is far from the rush to war based on dubious and false claims that characterized our unprovoked invasion of Iraq.

This might be something good to read up on at those links if you aren't very familiar with it, so that you will be ready to give an account should you find an opportunity!

[ggibson1]

You just need to point out to them that there is no "honor"
in slaughtering innocent lives like Huckabee believes..

Jesus would not let ONE innocent child be murdered to "save honor"
or whatever Huck thinks it is..

The bible glorifies slaughtering all men, women, and children of the enemey... Christians are not peaceniks... But they really DONT like Liars and Thiefs and corruption... remember the corruption of the temple priests...

[Minuteman]

I would like to extend an invitation to fellow christians out there to help spread Rons message on

ht tp://www.dittytalk.com

[Danny Molina]

Sadly this is how most christians think.

http://christianforums.com/t6449309

[Akus]

Someone I'm close to, along with countless other hardcore Christians are being persuaded to vote for Huckabee even though he is a "pro-life liberal." We need to influence local Christian groups in a positive way. There are many talk show hosts that throw around pro-Huckabee propaganda as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHLwFjAilnY

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this group of people?

google statement of faith and, of course, stress that RP is pro life.

[SeanEdwards]

Somebody should photoshop up some videos of Huckabee and Romney having an orgy with little boys. ;)

Disclaimer: The above sentence was a joke. Do not attempt.

[autobot]

Radio ads. We recorded several here (http://www.alcpac.com/spots_radio.html), which we are planning on airing on local Christian radio stations. The guy who runs the station was even a supporter!

Where do these ads run and how much have you raised. Sounds like something I would like to donate to.

[Akus]

Somebody should photoshop up some videos of Huckabee and Romney having an orgy with little boys. ;)

Disclaimer: The above sentence was a joke. Do not attempt.

Or may be we should leave these juvenile shenannigans to fredheads, all three of them, or Guliani supporters, and concentrate on a tea party or a letter writing ordeal or something. You know, like supporters of the winning candidate are supposed to act.

[Throwback280s]

What we ought to do is get the honorable Pastor Chuck Baldwin to lead a Faith & Freedom Rally tour across the nation to gin up support from evangelicals and their pastors. It'd be a big hit and let the Christians see the faith and reason of Ron Paul's values.

[SeanEdwards]

Or may be we should leave these juvenile shenannigans to fredheads, all three of them, or Guliani supporters, and concentrate on a tea party or a letter writing ordeal or something. You know, like supporters of the winning candidate are supposed to act.

I'm not seriously promoting the idea, but the sad truth is that Willy Hortonesque campaign stunts work. They've worked in the past, and they will continue to work, because people are stupid. You will never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the average American consumer. Karl Rove himself took out McCain by suggesting that McCain had an illegitimate black child. The swiftboat guys pwned Kerry by blatantly lying about Kerry's military record right before the election.

Lying about the oppositition and spreading FUD freakin works, and that's why people do it. They're doing it to Paul bigtime. Every damn day in fact.

[Kingfisher]

Many Christians, including myself are anti war unless we are attacked. I think a lot of Christians blindly follow what their preachers tell them instead of what the Bible says.......... (Pat Robertson)! What a joke!! ....... I also think many Christians are supposed to support the President no matter what. I agree.......as long as he follows the Constitution.

[Danny Molina]

As I read more into the thread in the link (http://christianforums.com/t6449309) I posed earlier I get even more infuriated with christians.

[Akus]

I'm not seriously promoting the idea, but the sad truth is that Willy Hortonesque campaign stunts work. They've worked in the past, and they will continue to work, because people are stupid. You will never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the average American consumer. Karl Rove himself took out McCain by suggesting that McCain had an illegitimate black child. The swiftboat guys pwned Kerry by blatantly lying about Kerry's military record right before the election.

Lying about the oppositition and spreading FUD freakin works, and that's why people do it. They're doing it to Paul bigtime. Every damn day in fact.

If it's any consolation, people who believe Ron Paul is an Al Qaeda shill, have probably never heard the word "primary", nor would they care to. So don't worry, those too stupid to understand the hole Jesus W. Bush have dug up for us are too stupid to understand the election process anyway.

And I hope everybody here is smart enough not to tell them.:D

[Richandler]

Evangelical Christians are a big reason this country is so divided today. There are so many fraudulent leaders of these groups who dupe people into giving money to churches and telling people how to run their lives. The movement is so big it's bound to affect any campaign. That group is the only reason why Huckabee is doing anything. Unfortunately the Neo Conservatives have hijacked the Republican party.

[tsetsefly]

Sadly this is how most christians think.

http://christianforums.com/t6449309

i have been reading through that forum and see more than a couple of RP supporters, stating their case very well, although they seem to disagree with him on foreign policy they know he is the only limited-government candidate out there...

I was actually a bit encouraged by reading that...