Yippee, there is no unemployment in the US!

[Brian4Liberty]

Here goes Bill Gates again. No good technology workers in the US, he needs to import them.

And he is lobbying and bribing government to get them. Microsoft will pay $10,000 per visa. But of course they will get that back when they get US Taxpayer money to train them. Corporatism 101.

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/258985-microsoft-lack-of-tech-workers-approaching-genuine-crisis


Microsoft unveiled a lobbying push on Thursday to produce more applicants with the skills to fill technology and engineering jobs.

The proposal would boost visas for high-skilled foreign workers and invest millions of dollars in federal funding for education.

Brad Smith, Microsoft's general counsel and executive vice president, said at a press briefing that the lack of qualified job applicants is "approaching the dimensions of a genuine crisis" for tech companies.

He said Microsoft has 3,400 open jobs for researchers, developers and engineers — an increase of 34 percent over last year.
...
Microsoft will push Congress to pass legislation to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to improve education in science, technology, engineering and math, fields collectively known as STEM.

The funding would boost training for teachers, offer more computer science courses for high school students and invest in community colleges and four year universities.

The company proposes paying for the education spending by adding an additional 20,000 H1B visas to allow high-skill foreign nationals to work in the United States. Employers would have to pay $10,000 for each employee that receives one of the visas.

The proposal would also reallocate 20,000 unused green cards for high-skilled immigrants. Employers would have to spend $15,000 to hire an employee under this program.

[TheTexan]

He's actually right. There is a shortage of qualified tech workers. At least in my industry. We've been looking for qualified people for a year, only found a handful, and they were here on visas

[AFPVet]

Shame too. Computer science courses are available at pretty much every university. I took a couple, but it's not my kind of gig lol. For others, they love it!

[Brian4Liberty]

He's actually right. There is a shortage of qualified tech workers. At least in my industry. We've been looking for qualified people for a year, only found a handful, and they were here on visas

I have found that in practice, the Human Resources methodology of finding employees is so flawed it is useless. 10,000 resumes of qualified candidates could be submitted to a large company, yet few if any will make it to the hiring manager. On the other hand, a consultant (sales person) from a big consulting company will be contacting the hiring manager multiple times a day with offers of workers (at large companies). And they will be offering multiple rates, one for US consultants, one for imported consultants, and one for offshore. Small companies have a harder time of it. Potential employees and headhunters are not aware of them, or they don't want to work there. The best US graduates with highly sought degrees in Computer Science or Accounting are snagged by the consulting firms first, to then be leased out to large companies. Small companies do have it harder.

[Brian4Liberty]

He's actually right. There is a shortage of qualified tech workers. At least in my industry. We've been looking for qualified people for a year, only found a handful, and they were here on visas

Also, it is doubtful that any scheme that Bill Gates and his bought politicians and lobbyists come up with will actually help a small employer.

[TheTexan]

Also, it is doubtful that any scheme that Bill Gates and his bought politicians and lobbyists come up with will actually help a small employer.

Ya I'm definitely not advocating any new legislation to solve this problem. Just pointing out, that part of the reason for the extremely high employment is that many of these people don't have any real skills... most just have pieces of paper with their name on it

[VBRonPaulFan]

Ya I'm definitely not advocating any new legislation to solve this problem. Just pointing out, that part of the reason for the extremely high employment is that many of these people don't have any real skills... most just have pieces of paper with their name on it

part of that problem are the people who think they can go to ITT tech/ECPI/insert shitty vocational school name here and come out in two years as some kind of professional developer.

the market is flooded with poor developers with crappy 2 years degrees from these kinds of schools, and employers don't really want to hire them. the people that are naturally gifted developers through their own study, or spent the time getting a 4 year degree and putting in the hard work - are in very short supply.

that being said, I hope this bill they're lobbying for doesn't pass. if they really needed developers badly and needed them now - they should start up a train-to-hire type program sort of like an apprenticeship. where they only take on people who are underqualified by their standards, but who they think have potential given the right training and resources. it would probably be cheaper and more profitable for them in the long run.

edit: and the title to the post is honestly a bit silly. this is equivalent to calling out some hospital looking to hire foreign doctors because they can't find any here, while implying they should just hire any bus driver/janitor/etc to fill the job.

[Brian4Liberty]

Ya I'm definitely not advocating any new legislation to solve this problem. Just pointing out, that part of the reason for the extremely high employment is that many of these people don't have any real skills... most just have pieces of paper with their name on it

That's pretty much how most H1-B employees come too. For most of recorded history, a piece of paper with with your name on it was a prerequisite to becoming an entry level person (or just a reference for a trade). And this was preferable, as the employer could train the employee in the specifics of that employer. In the US high-tech industry, this practice started to end in the 90s. In part due to sales pitches from consulting firms, it became the norm to want a person who would be "up and running on day one". The consulting companies then provided that training to potential employees, making them "up and running" after a week of training. They become "senior" after six months. There are a lot of dynamics at play. Sales pitches, ivory tower memes and propaganda shape the situation more than common sense and reality.

[erowe1]

It's a shame that anyone needs Congress's permission to hire anyone. There shouldn't be such a thing as visas, and if there is such a thing, there shouldn't be any limit on the number of them.

[Brian4Liberty]

...
if they really needed developers badly and needed them now - they should start up a train-to-hire type program sort of like an apprenticeship. where they only take on people who are underqualified by their standards, but who they think have potential given the right training and resources. it would probably be cheaper and more profitable for them in the long run.

Exactly.


edit: and the title to the post is honestly a bit silly. this is equivalent to calling out some hospital looking to hire foreign doctors because they can't find any here, while implying they should just hire any bus driver/janitor/etc to fill the job.

It's hyperbole. Good thread titles is an art I haven't mastered. ;)

Of course not anyone can do a given job, but if you never give them a chance (often even when they have a four year degree in the field) you'll never know. Unemployment has been high in the IT field since the dot-com bust, so there is no need to resort to bus drivers yet.

[TCE]

Actually, I will defend Gates here. I read the Steve Jobs autobiography, and inside, it is noted how Jobs had a difficult time finding qualified engineers to work at his facilities so he had to import them. He told Obama to start promoting the education of engineers. Jobs stated the problem was that everyone felt as if they had to get this great, high-line degree in engineering to do anything and Jobs wanted low-level engineers that were just qualified enough, not people with graduate degrees. Jobs requested 30,000 American engineers.

Obama actually used one of Jobs' lines from the biography at the debate a few days ago. It was cool.

[kahless]

the market is flooded with poor developers with crappy 2 years degrees from these kinds of schools, and employers don't really want to hire them. the people that are naturally gifted developers through their own study, or spent the time getting a 4 year degree and putting in the hard work - are in very short supply.


There are naturally gifted people regardless of whether of not they have a degree, type of degree or school they went to. I had found several years ago all too often people with 4 year degrees whether in the US or H1B that I hired (because of a lack of US applicants applying) that were absolutely useless.

Sometimes I wonder about how some these people actually got their 4 year degree and that is not just with programmers. I would take someone from a trade school or without a degree if they can do the job.

[jkr]

M$ war on Americans continues...

tyrants goNNa ty

[Brian4Liberty]

There are naturally gifted people regardless of whether of not they have a degree, type of degree or school they went to. I had found several years ago all too often people with 4 year degrees whether in the US or H1B that I hired (because of a lack of US applicants applying) that were absolutely useless.

Sometimes I wonder about how some these people actually got their 4 year degree and that is not just with programmers. I would take someone from a trade school or without a degree if they can do the job.

You bring up a good point. Many degrees aren't worth the paper they are written on. It depends upon the school and the program. Going to a "bad" school does not mean someone is not capable, but it doesn't mean they are competent either. Some schools have very tough programs. A person that successfully acquires a degree from a great program like that is guaranteed to be technically competent, personality issues aside. Unfortunately, many employers don't know this.

Importing workers does not solve this problem in the slightest. It can actually make it worse, as employers may not have a clue as to the quality of a degree from a different country.

[Brian4Liberty]

Actually, I will defend Gates here. I read the Steve Jobs autobiography, and inside, it is noted how Jobs had a difficult time finding qualified engineers to work at his facilities so he had to import them. He told Obama to start promoting the education of engineers. Jobs stated the problem was that everyone felt as if they had to get this great, high-line degree in engineering to do anything and Jobs wanted low-level engineers that were just qualified enough, not people with graduate degrees. Jobs requested 30,000 American engineers.

Obama actually used one of Jobs' lines from the biography at the debate a few days ago. It was cool.

Reality and propaganda often differ. I am familiar with Apple and it's hiring practices. They reject resumes faster than an iPhone 3 drops a call. ;) Just because Bill Gates, Steven Jobs or Barack Obama say something doesn't mean it's the actual truth.

[Czolgosz]

<- Been looking for UNIX/Linux work around 10 months now. Can't seem to land ish.

Apparently companies aren't that desperate for talented IT folks.

[specsaregood]

the market is flooded with poor developers with crappy 2 years degrees from these kinds of schools, and employers don't really want to hire them. the people that are naturally gifted developers through their own study, or spent the time getting a 4 year degree and putting in the hard work - are in very short supply.


I'll take work experience, references and work portfolio/examples over degrees any day of the week.

[Travlyr]

You bring up a good point. Many degrees aren't worth the paper they are written on. It depends upon the school and the program. Going to a "bad" school does not mean someone is not capable, but it doesn't mean they are competent either. Some schools have very tough programs. A person that successfully acquires a degree from a great program like that is guaranteed to be technically competent, personality issues aside. Unfortunately, many employers don't know this.

Importing workers does not solve this problem in the slightest. It can actually make it worse, as employers may not have a clue as to the quality of a degree from a different country.
Frankly, I would not hire an engineer from MIT or Purdue University. Their professors Ph.D. professors do not even understand Newton's Laws of Motion. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion)

It is pathetic. @4:00 minutes into the video MIT Professor Thomas Eagar, Ph.D. would have us believe the that Newton's third law of motion can be violated by an act of lying. This is high school physics. Do not go to MIT if you want a good education.

Do not go to Purdue University for an engineering degree either. Their professors are idiots. What a farce of a school. They wasted two years and 1000s of man hours to prove than Newton's Laws of Motion can be violated by computer rendering. What a waste of time and money.

Purdue University Professor of Civil Engineering Mete Sozen, Ph.D. @ 7:35 in the video "You see, I can tell you quite honestly we didn't fudge" lolz... that is code for I am being dishonest and we are fudging because the only other explanation is we are simply stupid. Newton's Laws of Motion do not get to be repealed by amendment. They are natural laws. Purdue University engineers ... you have lost a lot of credibility for letting Professor Sozen get away with his lies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4DlUujWGwo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4DlUujWGwo

I would never hire a civil or mechanical engineer from either MIT or Purdue because of their inability to tell the truth. They should condemn those liars.

[alucard13mmfmj]

Ya I'm definitely not advocating any new legislation to solve this problem. Just pointing out, that part of the reason for the extremely high employment is that many of these people don't have any real skills... most just have pieces of paper with their name on it

I will vouch for this. I graduated with a degree in Human Biology from UC San Diego. The degree is worth the paper its printed on. I can't find a job in that major/field and I didn't really like that major (discovered this on my last year). Now I am trying to find some crappy, low wage job and I've been waiting for phone calls for more than a week after I submitted a few applications. Probably my own fault because I never had a paying job, just volunteer work at places like research lab or humane society. I am quite frugal and I budget. In fact I am still using left over school grant money.

The process of getting the degree was horrible. Most of it is self learning (might as well not go to class and just read the book or notes). Whatever lab skills I learned, I had to learn myself and they don't even teach us. Just tell us to read the manual and figure it out ourselves... then get punished in grading if we couldn't figure it out on our own. I expected instructors to do a complete demo and we'd replicate it.

I am also in a situation where I am 25 and I don't know what the hell to do with my life... I've been thinking about it a lot recently. It is depressing, stressful, lost of appetite and even have thoughts of being worthless and offing myself.

I might be going back to my community college to try to get into the Radiology Technician program, a once a year program which is very competitive to get into and take 3-4 years to complete. But I am not sure it is something I would enjoy doing. It is good pay but I just don't know. I want to do something gaming or japanese cartoon related. However, income varies and it is not particularly a booming industry and there are competition. I am trying hard to find wholesalers for japanese cartoon/anime goods. Most likely have to import because local wholesaler hike up prices or have a incomplete selection because of licensing/distribution restrictions. I even thought about joining the military, like the Air Force (anyone in air force here or was in airforce i can talk to?).

By the way, does anyone know anything about parallel import? It is when you import and sell licensed/official goods that are not supposed to be sold in your region.

The uncertainty is maddening.

[DamianTV]

Something I think we can all agree on is that the quality of Education in this country sucks. I wonder if that has anything to do with not wanting to hire all these "qualified" people with really expensive pieces of paper!

[PaulConventionWV]

He's actually right. There is a shortage of qualified tech workers. At least in my industry. We've been looking for qualified people for a year, only found a handful, and they were here on visas

Because of our education system.

[DamianTV]

Because of our education system.

Most people have NO IDEA how bad our educational system has become.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75KERKwEQM&feature=related

[HOLLYWOOD]

Something I think we can all agree on is that the quality of Education in this country sucks. I wonder if that has anything to do with not wanting to hire all these "qualified" people with really expensive pieces of paper!Finland's educational system score Tops in Western Industrial nations. In comparison, Finland's cost per student is 1/3, the cost of Los Angeles county unified school district student, which In 2011, the federal government labeled nearly 75% of the schools in the Los Angeles Unified School District failing based on low test scores.

How's that for an example about how Federal Government Education Sucks.

[PaulConventionWV]

M$ war on Americans continues...

tyrants goNNa ty

I see what you did there.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Bill Gates is one of the greatest; lying, cheating, thieves of all time... Wizard of Silicon Valley or IP Theft of the Century and bribery of the US government.

AnyHoo, this just showed on the mail feeds...

Microsoft Can Now Listen In On All Skype Calls
http://12160.info/profiles/blog/show?id=2649739%3ABlogPost%3A1019509&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_post

[tod evans]

Learn to make anything with your hands, whether or not you make a life long vocation of it, or just a hobby, the thrill of actually making something is a catharsis for most folks.


I will vouch for this. I graduated with a degree in Human Biology from UC San Diego. The degree is worth the paper its printed on. I can't find a job in that major/field and I didn't really like that major (discovered this on my last year). Now I am trying to find some crappy, low wage job and I've been waiting for phone calls for more than a week after I submitted a few applications. Probably my own fault because I never had a paying job, just volunteer work at places like research lab or humane society. I am quite frugal and I budget. In fact I am still using left over school grant money.

The process of getting the degree was horrible. Most of it is self learning (might as well not go to class and just read the book or notes). Whatever lab skills I learned, I had to learn myself and they don't even teach us. Just tell us to read the manual and figure it out ourselves... then get punished in grading if we couldn't figure it out on our own. I expected instructors to do a complete demo and we'd replicate it.

I am also in a situation where I am 25 and I don't know what the hell to do with my life... I've been thinking about it a lot recently. It is depressing, stressful, lost of appetite and even have thoughts of being worthless and offing myself.

I might be going back to my community college to try to get into the Radiology Technician program, a once a year program which is very competitive to get into and take 3-4 years to complete. But I am not sure it is something I would enjoy doing. It is good pay but I just don't know. I want to do something gaming or japanese cartoon related. However, income varies and it is not particularly a booming industry and there are competition. I am trying hard to find wholesalers for japanese cartoon/anime goods. Most likely have to import because local wholesaler hike up prices or have a incomplete selection because of licensing/distribution restrictions. I even thought about joining the military, like the Air Force (anyone in air force here or was in airforce i can talk to?).

By the way, does anyone know anything about parallel import? It is when you import and sell licensed/official goods that are not supposed to be sold in your region.

The uncertainty is maddening.

[ClydeCoulter]

It's hard to find people that can do the job of Software Engineering or Architecture. I suspect it is the same for Engineering jobs as well, if my college experience is an example. I had found only 1 out of 60+ that could understand what I was building, so I made him my sidekick so that the 2 of us could fight it out with everyone else to try to keep the million+ lines of code in the application that was built upon the architecture from being butchered. We also had to fight the analysts from butchering the architecture. Analysts were just as bad about not wanting to understand but just change shit.

edit: People with paper want to re-invent the wheel, or so it seems, at least their own wheel.

[angelatc]

edit: and the title to the post is honestly a bit silly. this is equivalent to calling out some hospital looking to hire foreign doctors because they can't find any here, while implying they should just hire any bus driver/janitor/etc to fill the job.

The company I worked for was running into this problem, and they started training people. Imagine that.