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Anti Federalist
10-15-2012, 06:54 PM
I know this is old news to many, but, to some it is not.

And it also another reason why I have no trouble with the idea that the same people would kill 3000 on 9/11 to further an agenda.



The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan (It Was Not To End the War Or Save Lives)

Posted on October 14, 2012 by WashingtonsBlog

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-real-reason-america-used-nuclear-weapons-against-japan-to-contain-russian-ambitions.html

Atomic Weapons Were Not Needed to End the War or Save Lives
Like all Americans, I was taught that the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII and save both American and Japanese lives.

But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise.

The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

General (and later president) Dwight Eisenhower – then Supreme Commander of all Allied Forces, and the officer who created most of America’s WWII military plans for Europe and Japan – said:

The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.

Newsweek, 11/11/63, Ike on Ike

Eisenhower also noted (pg. 380):

In [July] 1945… Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. …the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude….

Admiral William Leahy – the highest ranking member of the U.S. military from 1942 until retiring in 1949, who was the first de facto Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and who was at the center of all major American military decisions in World War II – wrote (pg. 441):

It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

General Douglas MacArthur agreed (pg. 65, 70-71):

MacArthur’s views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed …. When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor.

Moreover (pg. 512):

The Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face ‘prompt and utter destruction.’ MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General’s advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary.

Similarly, Assistant Secretary of War John McLoy noted (pg. 500):

I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs.

Under Secretary of the Navy Ralph Bird said:

I think that the Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and, I think, the Swiss. And that suggestion of [giving] a warning [of the atomic bomb] was a face-saving proposition for them, and one that they could have readily accepted.

***

In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb. Thus, it wouldn’t have been necessary for us to disclose our nuclear position and stimulate the Russians to develop the same thing much more rapidly than they would have if we had not dropped the bomb.

War Was Really Won Before We Used A-Bomb, U.S. News and World Report, 8/15/60, pg. 73-75.

He also noted (pg. 144-145, 324):

It definitely seemed to me that the Japanese were becoming weaker and weaker. They were surrounded by the Navy. They couldn’t get any imports and they couldn’t export anything. Naturally, as time went on and the war developed in our favor it was quite logical to hope and expect that with the proper kind of a warning the Japanese would then be in a position to make peace, which would have made it unnecessary for us to drop the bomb and have had to bring Russia in.

General Curtis LeMay, the tough cigar-smoking Army Air Force “hawk,” stated publicly shortly before the nuclear bombs were dropped on Japan:

The war would have been over in two weeks. . . . The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.

The Vice Chairman of the U.S. Bombing Survey Paul Nitze wrote (pg. 36-37, 44-45):

[I] concluded that even without the atomic bomb, Japan was likely to surrender in a matter of months. My own view was that Japan would capitulate by November 1945.

***

Even without the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it seemed highly unlikely, given what we found to have been the mood of the Japanese government, that a U.S. invasion of the islands [scheduled for November 1, 1945] would have been necessary.

Deputy Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence Ellis Zacharias wrote:

Just when the Japanese were ready to capitulate, we went ahead and introduced to the world the most devastating weapon it had ever seen and, in effect, gave the go-ahead to Russia to swarm over Eastern Asia.

Washington decided that Japan had been given its chance and now it was time to use the A-bomb.

I submit that it was the wrong decision. It was wrong on strategic grounds. And it was wrong on humanitarian grounds.

Ellis Zacharias, How We Bungled the Japanese Surrender, Look, 6/6/50, pg. 19-21.

Brigadier General Carter Clarke – the military intelligence officer in charge of preparing summaries of intercepted Japanese cables for President Truman and his advisors – said (pg. 359):

When we didn’t need to do it, and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs.

Many other high-level military officers concurred. For example:

The commander in chief of the U.S. Fleet and Chief of Naval Operations, Ernest J. King, stated that the naval blockade and prior bombing of Japan in March of 1945, had rendered the Japanese helpless and that the use of the atomic bomb was both unnecessary and immoral. Also, the opinion of Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz was reported to have said in a press conference on September 22, 1945, that “The Admiral took the opportunity of adding his voice to those insisting that Japan had been defeated before the atomic bombing and Russia’s entry into the war.” In a subsequent speech at the Washington Monument on October 5, 1945, Admiral Nimitz stated “The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war.” It was learned also that on or about July 20, 1945, General Eisenhower had urged Truman, in a personal visit, not to use the atomic bomb. Eisenhower’s assessment was “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing . . . to use the atomic bomb, to kill and terrorize civilians, without even attempting [negotiations], was a double crime.” Eisenhower also stated that it wasn’t necessary for Truman to “succumb” to [the tiny handful of people putting pressure on the president to drop atom bombs on Japan.]

British officers were of the same mind. For example, General Sir Hastings Ismay, Chief of Staff to the British Minister of Defence, said to Prime Minister Churchill that “when Russia came into the war against Japan, the Japanese would probably wish to get out on almost any terms short of the dethronement of the Emperor.”

On hearing that the atomic test was successful, Ismay’s private reaction was one of “revulsion.”

Why Were Bombs Dropped on Populated Cities Without Military Value?
Even military officers who favored use of nuclear weapons mainly favored using them on unpopulated areas or Japanese military targets … not cities.

For example, Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Navy Lewis Strauss proposed to Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal that a non-lethal demonstration of atomic weapons would be enough to convince the Japanese to surrender … and the Navy Secretary agreed (pg. 145, 325):

I proposed to Secretary Forrestal that the weapon should be demonstrated before it was used. Primarily it was because it was clear to a number of people, myself among them, that the war was very nearly over. The Japanese were nearly ready to capitulate… My proposal to the Secretary was that the weapon should be demonstrated over some area accessible to Japanese observers and where its effects would be dramatic. I remember suggesting that a satisfactory place for such a demonstration would be a large forest of cryptomeria trees not far from Tokyo. The cryptomeria tree is the Japanese version of our redwood… I anticipated that a bomb detonated at a suitable height above such a forest… would lay the trees out in windrows from the center of the explosion in all directions as though they were matchsticks, and, of course, set them afire in the center. It seemed to me that a demonstration of this sort would prove to the Japanese that we could destroy any of their cities at will… Secretary Forrestal agreed wholeheartedly with the recommendation…

It seemed to me that such a weapon was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion, that once used it would find its way into the armaments of the world…

General George Marshall agreed:

Contemporary documents show that Marshall felt “these weapons might first be used against straight military objectives such as a large naval installation and then if no complete result was derived from the effect of that, he thought we ought to designate a number of large manufacturing areas from which the people would be warned to leave–telling the Japanese that we intend to destroy such centers….”

As the document concerning Marshall’s views suggests, the question of whether the use of the atomic bomb was justified turns … on whether the bombs had to be used against a largely civilian target rather than a strictly military target—which, in fact, was the explicit choice since although there were Japanese troops in the cities, neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was deemed militarily vital by U.S. planners. (This is one of the reasons neither had been heavily bombed up to this point in the war.) Moreover, targeting [at Hiroshima and Nagasaki] was aimed explicitly on non-military facilities surrounded by workers’ homes.

Historians Agree that the Bomb Wasn’t Needed
Historians agree that nuclear weapons did not need to be used to stop the war or save lives.

As historian Doug Long notes:

U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission historian J. Samuel Walker has studied the history of research on the decision to use nuclear weapons on Japan. In his conclusion he writes, “The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisors knew it.” (J. Samuel Walker, The Decision to Use the Bomb: A Historiographical Update, Diplomatic History, Winter 1990, pg. 110).

Politicians Agreed
Many high-level politicians agreed. For example, Herbert Hoover said (pg. 142):

The Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945…up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; …if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs.

Under Secretary of State Joseph Grew noted (pg. 29-32):

In the light of available evidence I myself and others felt that if such a categorical statement about the [retention of the] dynasty had been issued in May, 1945, the surrender-minded elements in the [Japanese] Government might well have been afforded by such a statement a valid reason and the necessary strength to come to an early clearcut decision.

If surrender could have been brought about in May, 1945, or even in June or July, before the entrance of Soviet Russia into the [Pacific] war and the use of the atomic bomb, the world would have been the gainer.

Why Then Were Atom Bombs Dropped on Japan?
If dropping nuclear bombs was unnecessary to end the war or to save lives, why was the decision to drop them made? Especially over the objections of so many top military and political figures?

One theory is that scientists like to play with their toys:

On September 9, 1945, Admiral William F. Halsey, commander of the Third Fleet, was publicly quoted extensively as stating that the atomic bomb was used because the scientists had a “toy and they wanted to try it out . . . .” He further stated, “The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment . . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it.”

However, most of the Manhattan Project scientists who developed the atom bomb were opposed to using it on Japan.

Albert Einstein – an important catalyst for the development of the atom bomb (but not directly connected with the Manhattan Project) – said differently:

“A great majority of scientists were opposed to the sudden employment of the atom bomb.” In Einstein’s judgment, the dropping of the bomb was a political – diplomatic decision rather than a military or scientific decision.

Indeed, some of the Manhattan Project scientists wrote directly to the secretary of defense in 1945 to try to dissuade him from dropping the bomb:

We believe that these considerations make the use of nuclear bombs for an early, unannounced attack against Japan inadvisable. If the United States would be the first to release this new means of indiscriminate destruction upon mankind, she would sacrifice public support throughout the world, precipitate the race of armaments, and prejudice the possibility of reaching an international agreement on the future control of such weapons.

Political and Social Problems, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 76, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 323-333).

The scientists questioned the ability of destroying Japanese cities with atomic bombs to bring surrender when destroying Japanese cities with conventional bombs had not done so, and – like some of the military officers quoted above – recommended a demonstration of the atomic bomb for Japan in an unpopulated area.

The Real Explanation?
History.com notes:

In the years since the two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan, a number of historians have suggested that the weapons had a two-pronged objective …. It has been suggested that the second objective was to demonstrate the new weapon of mass destruction to the Soviet Union. By August 1945, relations between the Soviet Union and the United States had deteriorated badly. The Potsdam Conference between U.S. President Harry S. Truman, Russian leader Joseph Stalin, and Winston Churchill (before being replaced by Clement Attlee) ended just four days before the bombing of Hiroshima. The meeting was marked by recriminations and suspicion between the Americans and Soviets. Russian armies were occupying most of Eastern Europe. Truman and many of his advisers hoped that the U.S. atomic monopoly might offer diplomatic leverage with the Soviets. In this fashion, the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan can be seen as the first shot of the Cold War.

New Scientist reported in 2005:

The US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 was meant to kick-start the Cold War rather than end the Second World War, according to two nuclear historians who say they have new evidence backing the controversial theory.

Causing a fission reaction in several kilograms of uranium and plutonium and killing over 200,000 people 60 years ago was done more to impress the Soviet Union than to cow Japan, they say. And the US President who took the decision, Harry Truman, was culpable, they add.

“He knew he was beginning the process of annihilation of the species,” says Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University in Washington DC, US. “It was not just a war crime; it was a crime against humanity.”

***

[The conventional explanation of using the bombs to end the war and save lives] is disputed by Kuznick and Mark Selden, a historian from Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, US.

***

New studies of the US, Japanese and Soviet diplomatic archives suggest that Truman’s main motive was to limit Soviet expansion in Asia, Kuznick claims. Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union began an invasion a few days after the Hiroshima bombing, not because of the atomic bombs themselves, he says.

According to an account by Walter Brown, assistant to then-US secretary of state James Byrnes, Truman agreed at a meeting three days before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima that Japan was “looking for peace”. Truman was told by his army generals, Douglas Macarthur and Dwight Eisenhower, and his naval chief of staff, William Leahy, that there was no military need to use the bomb.

“Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan,” says Selden.

John Pilger points out:

The US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was “fearful” that the US air force would have Japan so “bombed out” that the new weapon would not be able “to show its strength”. He later admitted that “no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb”. His foreign policy colleagues were eager “to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip”. General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: “There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis.” The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the “overwhelming success” of “the experiment”.

We’ll give the last word to University of Maryland professor of political economy – and former Legislative Director in the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, and Special Assistant in the Department of State – Gar Alperovitz:

Though most Americans are unaware of the fact, increasing numbers of historians now recognize the United States did not need to use the atomic bomb to end the war against Japan in 1945. Moreover, this essential judgment was expressed by the vast majority of top American military leaders in all three services in the years after the war ended: Army, Navy and Army Air Force. Nor was this the judgment of “liberals,” as is sometimes thought today. In fact, leading conservatives were far more outspoken in challenging the decision as unjustified and immoral than American liberals in the years following World War II.

***

Instead [of allowing other options to end the war, such as letting the Soviets attack Japan with ground forces], the United States rushed to use two atomic bombs at almost exactly the time that an August 8 Soviet attack had originally been scheduled: Hiroshima on August 6 and Nagasaki on August 9. The timing itself has obviously raised questions among many historians. The available evidence, though not conclusive, strongly suggests that the atomic bombs may well have been used in part because American leaders “preferred”—as Pulitzer Prize–winning historian Martin Sherwin has put it—to end the war with the bombs rather than the Soviet attack. Impressing the Soviets during the early diplomatic sparring that ultimately became the Cold War also appears likely to have been a significant factor.

***

The most illuminating perspective, however, comes from top World War II American military leaders. The conventional wisdom that the atomic bomb saved a million lives is so widespread that … most Americans haven’t paused to ponder something rather striking to anyone seriously concerned with the issue: Not only did most top U.S. military leaders think the bombings were unnecessary and unjustified, many were morally offended by what they regarded as the unnecessary destruction of Japanese cities and what were essentially noncombat populations. Moreover, they spoke about it quite openly and publicly.

***

Shortly before his death General George C. Marshall quietly defended the decision, but for the most part he is on record as repeatedly saying that it was not a military decision, but rather a political one.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 07:08 PM
The bomb was released for purely political reasons. Unfortunately many do not understand that. We are fucked to repeat it.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 07:08 PM
This article sounds like more armchair quarterback hand wringing. The U.S. entrance into the war was entirely fraudulent but those bombs sapped the will out of the Japanese permanently, especially after the failed coup d'etat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident (the code of the Bushido stressed death before dishonor) For the Operation Olympic alone, the Pentagon had projected 235,000 American casualities for the first 210 days of invading just Kyushu. I would have dropped those bombs, especially after all the horrifying incidents from the Bataan Death March to Iwo Jima. Gimme a effing break!!! And then in August 1945 right before the surrender, the officers of the Imperial Army had to be stopped from violently overruling the Emperor from agreeing to the surrender terms.

AGRP
10-15-2012, 07:09 PM
One of the excuses was that virtually everyone there was armed and ready to attack our troops if they went to the ground. Typical of those who want to go to war so carelessly because the same excuse could be used to nuke us. Were one of the most armed people on earth.

Anti Federalist
10-15-2012, 07:16 PM
This article sounds like more armchair quarterback hand wringing. The U.S. entrance into the war was entirely fraudulent but those bombs sapped the will out of the Japanese permanently, especially after the failed coup d'etat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident (the code of the Bushido stressed death before dishonor) For the Operation Olympic alone, the Pentagon had projected 235,000 American casualities for the first 210 days of invading just Kyushu. I would have dropped those bombs, especially after all the horrifying incidents from the Bataan Death March to Iwo Jima. Gimme a effing break!!! And then in August 1945, the officers of the Imperial Army had to be stopped from overruling the Emperor from agreeing to the surrender terms.

If those "armchair quarterbacks" included Manning, Young, Namath, Favre, and Elway, as an example, I would be inclined to listen to their opinion.

That is who is quoted here, the very best of the WWII leadership.

All are in agreement that the reason was purely political, not tactical.

A quarter of a million people, incinerated, to make a political point.

And we're supposed to be the "good guys".

The Goat
10-15-2012, 07:17 PM
And people wonder why the holocaust always dominates WWII stories of genocide. Have to keep the attention on the Germans instead of the US.

The Goat
10-15-2012, 07:22 PM
This article sounds like more armchair quarterback hand wringing. The U.S. entrance into the war was entirely fraudulent but those bombs sapped the will out of the Japanese permanently, especially after the failed coup d'etat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident (the code of the Bushido stressed death before dishonor) For the Operation Olympic alone, the Pentagon had projected 235,000 American casualities for the first 210 days of invading just Kyushu. I would have dropped those bombs, especially after all the horrifying incidents from the Bataan Death March to Iwo Jima. Gimme a effing break!!! And then in August 1945 right before the surrender, the officers of the Imperial Army had to be stopped from violently overruling the Emperor from agreeing to the surrender terms.


So you stand behind the choose to drop them on civilian centers instead of military? Good to know their are genocidal maniacs in our mist. can't have a political movement with out them for sure.

AGRP
10-15-2012, 07:23 PM
And people wonder why the holocaust always dominates WWII stories of genocide. Have to keep the attention on the Germans instead of the US.

Imagine if German interests owned most propaganda outlets and focused on the nuke while claiming their "little" holocaust was for defense purposes.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 07:25 PM
If those "armchair quarterbacks" included Manning, Young, Namath, Favre, and Elway, as an example, I would be inclined to listen to their opinion.

That is who is quoted here, the very best of the WWII leadership.

All are in agreement that the reason was purely political, not tactical.

A quarter of a million people, incinerated, to make a political point.

And we're supposed to be the "good guys".

But Nimitz, MacArthur & Marshall had all earnestly planned Operation Downfall and were prepared to execute the mainland invasion of Japan. In fact, MacArthur stated the following:

I am of the opinion that the ground, naval, air, and logistic resources in the Pacific are adequate to carry out Course III. The Japanese Fleet has been reduced to practical impotency. The Japanese Air Force has been reduced to a line of action which involves unco-ordinated, suicidal attacks against our forces, employing all types of planes, including trainers. Its attrition is heavy and its power for sustained action is diminishing rapidly. Those conditions will be accentuated after the establishment of of our air forces in the Ryukyus. With the increase in the tempo of very long range attacks, the enemy's ability to provide replacement planes will diminish and the Japanese potentiality will decline at an increasing rate. It is believed that the development of air bases in the Ryukyus will, in conjunction with carrier-based planes, give us sufficient air power to support landings on Kyushu and that the establishment

So you would have signed off on Operation Downfall, sending at minimum 400k Americans to their death?? We can operate in this false reality in which hard decisions are run away from. Fighting from island to island westward with heavy casualties was not predicated on simply leaving the Japanese power structure in place.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 07:27 PM
So you stand behind the choose to drop them on civilian centers instead of military? Good to know their are genocidal maniacs in our mist. can't have a political movement with out them for sure.

The genocidal maniacs were the Imperial brass and the brain-dead emperor. They killed their own people with their own brutality and arrogance. Do you think the U.S. military was just going to forget the Bataan Death March????? Hacking off American heads during a 60 mile trek? Or Iwo Jima? Or the kamikaze attacks on U.S. naval vessels?? Really??? If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. The Japanese wanted to play rough... No one should weep for them.

Free in CT
10-15-2012, 07:31 PM
For those interested in this subject I highly recommend reading "Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover's Secret History of World War II and It's Aftermath".
This book was written by Hoover (with many revisions and additions) during the 1950's but was not published until last year. Much of what was revealed
in the George Washington blog post is covered in the book.

History has ignored what our military leaders said at the time, on record, in congressional hearings concerning the use of atomic weapons on Japan.
This massive book is well worth taking the time to read. Hoover was a strident anti-interventionist, historian and prolific writer following his Presidency.

Origanalist
10-15-2012, 07:34 PM
Good call and welcome!

AGRP
10-15-2012, 07:36 PM
The genocidal maniacs were the Imperial brass and the brain-dead emperor. They killed their own people with their own brutality and arrogance. Do you think the U.S. military was just going to forget the Bataan Death March????? Hacking off American heads during a 60 mile trek? Or Iwo Jima? Or the kamikaze attacks on U.S. naval vessels?? Really??? If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. The Japanese wanted to play rough... No one should weep for them.

You do realize you're defending the use of a nuclear bomb on civilians right? You realize that opens the door for a nuclear bomb to be used on us?

AuH20
10-15-2012, 07:43 PM
You do realize you're defending the use of a nuclear bomb on civilians right? You realize that opens the door for a nuclear bomb to be used on us?

1 million casualties between Japanese and Americans if Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet are greenlit. 1 million lives vs. 250k. It's simple math.

Secondly, if the JCS and our leaders were dumb enough to antagonize a more powerful military with cutthroat methods and then refused to the surrender terms, then of course, I'd expect a nuclear armament to be utilized. Hopefully, our military leaders aren't as fanatical and delusional as the Japanese were & would utilize common sense. In fact, during the Bataan Death March, the Japanese were appalled that more of the imprisoned American officers weren't killing themselves for the dishonor of being captured. We're dealing with stark contrasts in mindset.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 07:46 PM
For those interested in this subject I highly recommend reading "Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover's Secret History of World War II and It's Aftermath".
This book was written by Hoover (with many revisions and additions) during the 1950's but was not published until last year. Much of what was revealed
in the George Washington blog post is covered in the book.

History has ignored what our military leaders said at the time, on record, in congressional hearings concerning the use of atomic weapons on Japan.
This massive book is well worth taking the time to read. Hoover was a strident anti-interventionist, historian and prolific writer following his Presidency.

Another good read is "House of War: The Pentagon and the Disastrous Rise of American Power."

coastie
10-15-2012, 07:58 PM
1 million casualties between Japanese and Americans if Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet are greenlit. 1 million lives vs. 250k. It's simple math.

Secondly, if the JCS and our leaders were dumb enough to antagonize a more powerful military with cutthroat methods and then refused to the surrender terms, then of course, I'd expect a nuclear armament to be utilized. Hopefully, our military leaders aren't as fanatical and delusional as the Japanese were & would utilize common sense. In fact, during the Bataan Death March, the Japanese were appalled that more of the imprisoned American officers weren't killing themselves for the dishonor of being captured. We're dealing with stark contrasts in mindset.


Sigh....

You really need to read the book that just came out on this. I have. It's quite revealing, and would turn all your arguments on their head.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 08:00 PM
Sigh....

You really need to read the book that just came out on this. I have. It's quite revealing, and would turn all your arguments on their head.

You really think Truman dropped the bomb for giggles??? Seriously... The incineration of 250 thousand Japanese civilians because he was curious?? Some people in this forum live in dreamland. It was either (A) Hiroshima and Nagasaki or (B) a prolonged invasion of Japan exceeding a million deaths.

Carson
10-15-2012, 08:00 PM
Wow!

So I've scanned all of that over quick like and I still don't have a clue what a MIC is or do I give any more of a darn to figure it out than you did to try and convey a message by spelling out.

But I'm sure one person at least was impressed by it.

coastie
10-15-2012, 08:01 PM
You really think Truman dropped the bomb for giggles??? Seriously... The incineration of 250 thousand Japanese civilians because he was curious?? Some people in this forum live in dreamland.

Yeah...because that's totally what I said.:rolleyes: What are you, 15 years old?

donnay
10-15-2012, 08:03 PM
1 million casualties between Japanese and Americans if Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet are greenlit. 1 million lives vs. 250k. It's simple math.

Secondly, if the JCS and our leaders were dumb enough to antagonize a more powerful military with cutthroat methods and then refused to the surrender terms, then of course, I'd expect a nuclear armament to be utilized. Hopefully, our military leaders aren't as fanatical and delusional as the Japanese were & would utilize common sense. In fact, during the Bataan Death March, the Japanese were appalled that more of the imprisoned American officers weren't killing themselves for the dishonor of being captured. We're dealing with stark contrasts in mindset.


I bet you cheer gleefully when we put the Japanese Americans in interment camps too.

The nuking of Japan was to intimidate Uncle Joe. There was absolutely no reason for them to drop those bombs, Japan was already defeated and were surrendering.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 08:16 PM
I bet you cheer gleefully when we put the Japanese Americans in interment camps too.

The nuking of Japan was to intimidate Uncle Joe. There was absolutely no reason for them to drop those bombs, Japan was already defeated and were surrendering.

More non-sequitor nonsense. This discussion has nothing to do with the error of Japanese internment.


Secondly, Japan wasn't surrendering unilaterally. Read about the Kyujo Incident which occurred August 14th 1945, 5 DAYS AFTER THE DROPPING OF THE BOMBS. :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident


The officers, in an attempt to block the decision to surrender to the Allies, killed Lieutenant General Takeshi Mori of the First Imperial Guards Division and attempted to counterfeit an order to the effect of occupying the Tokyo Imperial Palace. They attempted to place the Emperor under house arrest, using the 2nd Brigade Imperial Guard Infantry. They failed to persuade the Eastern District Army (Japan) and the high command of the Imperial Japanese Army to move forward with the action. Due to their failure to convince the remaining army to oust the Imperial House of Japan, they ultimately committed suicide in traditional Japanese form. As a result, the communique of the intent for a Japanese surrender continued as planned.


Does that sound like a power structure that wants to surrender??? You drop 2 earth shattering weapons on their populace and a coup d'etat is barely averted 5 days later!!! I really can't believe how historically ignorant some people are, in order to keep their fragile worldviews intact.

Henry Rogue
10-15-2012, 08:18 PM
1 million casualties between Japanese and Americans if Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet are greenlit. 1 million lives vs. 250k. It's simple math.

Secondly, if the JCS and our leaders were dumb enough to antagonize a more powerful military with cutthroat methods and then refused to the surrender terms, then of course, I'd expect a nuclear armament to be utilized. Hopefully, our military leaders aren't as fanatical and delusional as the Japanese were & would utilize common sense. In fact, during the Bataan Death March, the Japanese were appalled that more of the imprisoned American officers weren't killing themselves for the dishonor of being captured. We're dealing with stark contrasts in mindset.
By mid 1944 Japan was waging a defensive war no longer capable of waging an offensive war. My point is Operations Olympic and Coronet (Operation Downfall) would have been and act of aggression. For no other purpose than unconditional surrender. To me Operation Downfall was unnecessary.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 08:21 PM
By mid 1944 Japan was waging a defensive war no longer capable of waging an offensive war. My point is Operations Olympic and Coronet (Operation Downfall) would have been and act of aggression. For no other purpose than unconditional surrender. To me Operation Downfall was unnecessary.

Agreed. Operation Downfall was unnecessary. But if backed up between a hard and a rock place, I'm dropping the bombs. Truman made the right decision. He saw how savage and unreasonable the Japanese were throughout the war. The Japanese never took POWs.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 08:28 PM
1 million casualties between Japanese and Americans if Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet are greenlit. 1 million lives vs. 250k. It's simple math.

Secondly, if the JCS and our leaders were dumb enough to antagonize a more powerful military with cutthroat methods and then refused to the surrender terms, then of course, I'd expect a nuclear armament to be utilized. Hopefully, our military leaders aren't as fanatical and delusional as the Japanese were & would utilize common sense. In fact, during the Bataan Death March, the Japanese were appalled that more of the imprisoned American officers weren't killing themselves for the dishonor of being captured. We're dealing with stark contrasts in mindset.

An Island nation. Whose Navy and Airforce were destroyed. No need to invade. The populace would have eventually revolted or died out. The bomb was dropped because of Russia. It jump started all the unconstitutional wars we have been in since WWII. THAT is the work of the M.I.C.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 08:30 PM
Agreed. Operation Downfall was unnecessary. But if backed up between a hard and a rock place, I'm dropping the bombs. Truman made the right decision. He saw how savage and unreasonable the Japanese were throughout the war. The Japanese never took POWs.

There was no rock nor hard place. We controlled the sea and the skies.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 08:30 PM
An Island nation. Whose Navy and Airforce were destroyed. No need to invade. The populace would have eventually revolted or died out. The bomb was dropped because of Russia. It jump started all the unconstitutional wars we have been in since WWII. THAT is the work of the M.I.C.

It was largely logistics. The American brass wasn't going to just sit there and wait for the Japanese. They had amassed this huge force, which was extremely costly to maintain per day, halfway around the world.

AGRP
10-15-2012, 08:32 PM
It was largely logistics. The American brass wasn't going to just sit there and wait for the Japanese. They had amassed this huge force, which was extremely costly to maintain per day, halfway around the world.

That to you is a good excuse to nuke civilians?

Anti Federalist
10-15-2012, 08:33 PM
You really think Truman dropped the bomb for giggles??? Seriously... The incineration of 250 thousand Japanese civilians because he was curious?? Some people in this forum live in dreamland. It was either (A) Hiroshima and Nagasaki or (B) a prolonged invasion of Japan exceeding a million deaths.

No, not for giggles...


In the years since the two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan, a number of historians have suggested that the weapons had a two-pronged objective …. It has been suggested that the second objective was to demonstrate the new weapon of mass destruction to the Soviet Union. By August 1945, relations between the Soviet Union and the United States had deteriorated badly. The Potsdam Conference between U.S. President Harry S. Truman, Russian leader Joseph Stalin, and Winston Churchill (before being replaced by Clement Attlee) ended just four days before the bombing of Hiroshima. The meeting was marked by recriminations and suspicion between the Americans and Soviets. Russian armies were occupying most of Eastern Europe. Truman and many of his advisers hoped that the U.S. atomic monopoly might offer diplomatic leverage with the Soviets. In this fashion, the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan can be seen as the first shot of the Cold War.

Anti Federalist
10-15-2012, 08:33 PM
////

Anti Federalist
10-15-2012, 08:35 PM
Wow!

So I've scanned all of that over quick like and I still don't have a clue what a MIC is or do I give any more of a darn to figure it out than you did to try and convey a message by spelling out.

But I'm sure one person at least was impressed by it.

Sorry, sorry, sorry...

MIC = Military Industrial Complex.

I'm quite sure this action shaped Eisenhower's thinking to later coin that term.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 08:36 PM
That to you is a good excuse to nuke civilians?

No. But but they were the only two options being considered. Operation Downfall or the bombs. And with the amphibious assault, they were going to drop the bombs on two strategic beachheads.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 08:38 PM
No. But but they were the only two options being considered. Operation Downfall or the bombs. And with the amphibious assault, they were going to drop the bombs on two strategic beachheads.

And both were presented by the Military Industrial Complex and its Pentagon planners. There were many options. Christ. Wake the fuck up.

Anti Federalist
10-15-2012, 08:42 PM
The Japanese never took POWs.

Ummmm, wut?



List of Japanese-run internment camps during World War II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese-run_internment_camps_during_World_War_II

This is an incomplete list of Japanese-run military prisoner-of-war and civilian internment camps during World War II.

Some of these camps were for prisoners of war (POW) only.

Some also held a mixture of POWs and civilian internees, while others held solely civilian internees.

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.

Published by the Medical Research Committee of American Ex-Prisoners of War, Inc., 1980.Contents [hide]

[edit] Camps in the PhilippinesCabanatuan
Camp O'Donnell
Los Baños
Santo Tomas Internment Camp
Bilibid Prison
Puerto Princesa Prison Camp
Camp John Hay
Camp Holmes
Camp Manganese, Guindulman, Bohol
[edit] Camps in Malaya/SingaporeChangi Prison
Salarang Barracks
River Valley Camp
Blakang Mati
Anderson School, Ipoh, Perak State, Malaya
Outram Road Prison
[edit] Camps in Formosa (modern Taiwan)Kinkaseki#1 Jinguashi
Taichu#2 (Taichung)
Heito#3 (PingTung)
Shirakawa#4 (Chiayi)
Taihoku#5 Mosak (Taipei)
Taihoku#6 (Taipei)
Karenko (Hualien)
Tamazato (YuLi)
Kukutsu (Taipei)
Oka (Taipei)
Toroku - (Touliu)
Inrin - (Yuanlin)
Inrin Temporary (Yuanlin)
Takao (Kaohsiung)
Churon (Taipei)
Tiahokum (Taipei)
[edit] Camps in North BorneoJesselton
Sandakan
[edit] Camps in SarawakBatu Lintang, Kuching
[edit] Camps in ChinaThe Weihsien Compound (Shandong)
Lunghua Civilian Assembly Center (Shanghai)
Lushun (Port Arthur) POW Camp
[edit] Camps in ManchuriaHoten Camp
[edit] Camps in Dutch East Indies (modern Indonesia)Pontianak POW camp, Pontianak (Dutch Borneo) (modern Kalimantan)
Balikpapan POW camp, Balikpapan (Dutch Borneo) (modern Kalimantan)
Makasura (Celebes)
Tandjong Priok POW camp, Tandjong Priok (Java)
Koan School, Batavia (modern Jakarta) (Java)
Glodok Gaol, Golodok, a suburb of Batavia (modern Jakarta) (Java)
Bicycle Camp, Batavia (modern Jakarta) (Java)
Bandung (Java)
Tjideng
Usapa Besar (Timor)
Ambarawa (Java)
Bangkong (Java)
Lampersari (Java)
Ambon (Ambon Island)
Banyu Biru (Java)
[edit] Camps in Thailand/BurmaNiki Niki
Kanchanaburi
Sonkrai
[edit] Camps in New GuineaRabaul
[edit] Camps in KoreaInchon
[edit] Camps in Hong KongArgyle Street Camp
Ma Tau Chong Camp
Ma Tau Wai Camp
North Point Camp
Sham Shui Po Camp
Stanley Internment Camp
[1]

[edit] Camps in Japan
Achi Yamakita
Aioshi
Akasaka
Akenobe #6B
Akita
Amagasaki Subcamp
Aokuma (or Okuma) (Fukuoka #22)
Aomori (Ōmori, Tokyo Base Camp #1)
Arao
Asahigawa
Ashio
Ashikago
Atami
Beppu
Bibai-Machi Branch Camp #3
Camp #11 (Fukuoka #11) (Later renamed #8)
Camp #23
Chiba
Chugenji (or Chuzenji)
Franciscan Monastery
Fukuoka #17
Fuji
Funatsu
Furashi
Furumaki
Fuse
Futase (Fukuoka #10, later renamed #7)
Futatsui City
Gifu - Nagara Hotel
Hakodate #2 (Utashinia or Akabira)
Hakodate #3 (Utashin1a)
Hakodate Divisional Camp
Hakodate Main Camp
Hakone
Hanawa Sendai #6
Harina (or Harima)
Hayashi Village
Higashi-Misone (Subcamp #10)
Himeji
Hiraoka (Subcamp #3)
Hirohata Divisional Camp
Hitachi (Ibaraki-Ken Camp #D12)
Hitachi Motoyama
Ichioka (or Itchioka) Stadium Hospital
Iizuka (Probably #7)
Ikuno (Osaka #4B)
Imoshima Island (Subcamp #2)
Kagawa Christian Fellowship Home
Kamioka
Kamiso Subcamp #1
Kamitan (or Kamita) Kozan (Sendai #11)
Kanagawa Kenko
Kanagawa Tokyo 2nd Div.
Kanazawa
Kanose
Kashii (or Kashu) Camp #1 (Fukuoka #1)
Kawasaki #1
Kawasaki Camp - Kobe
Kawasaki Dispatch Camp #5
Kawasaki Subcamp #2 ("Mitsui Madhouse")
Kempei Tai
Kita Corygara
Kobe
Kobe (Camp #31)
Kobe POW Hospital
Kōchi
Kosaka (Sendai Camp #8)
Koshian Hotel
Koyagi Shima (Fukuoka #2)
Kumamoto (First location of Fukuoka #1)
Kure
Kurume
Kyota - branches at Hakata
Maibara
Maisure
Minato-ku
Mito
Mitsu Branch Camp #5
Mitsuishi
Mitsushima (or Matsushima) Camp #2D
Miyata (Fukuoka #9B)
Mizumaki
Mizonkuchi
Moji #4
Moji Hospital
Morioka
Motoyama Subcamp #8
Mukaishima Island Subcamp #1 (Hiroshima Sub-Camp #4)
Murakami
Muroran (Kamiso Machi Camp #73)
Myoshi
Nakama #21 (Fukuoka #21) (Also spelled Nacama)
Nagasaki
Nagasaki #14
Nagasaki #2 (Same as #139)
Nagasaki #4
Nagoya Main Camp
Nagoya Subcamp #10
Narashino Airport
Narumi
Niigata (Subcamp #5)
Niihama Branch Camp #2
Nogeyama Park
Nooetzu (or Nooetsu) Prison Camp (Niigata Ken)
Notogawa #9B
Odate
Oeyama (or Oyama)
Ofuna Camp
Ohama Subcamp #9
Ohashi[disambiguation needed]
Old City Hall
Omine Subcamp #6
Ōmori Main Camp
Ōmuta Camp #17 Fukuoka 17
Onada Branch Camp #8
Onada Branch Camp #9
Osaka #1 Headquarters Camp (Chikko)
Osaka Central Market
Otaru
Oyeama
Park Central Camp
Park Central Stadium
Rangoon
Roku Roshi
Sakai Prison
Sakurajima
Sakurajima Ichioka School
Sapporo Penitentiary
Sasebo (Fukuoka #18)
Sekiguchi at Koishikawaku
Sendai
Shibaura
Shimodate
Shimomago Hitachi
Shimonseki
Shinagawa Main Camp
Shinagawa POW Hospital
Shingu[disambiguation needed]
Shinjuku Camp #1
Shizuoka
Subcamp #12 (Fukuoka #12)
Sumidagawa
Sumiyoshi-ku
Suzuki Aio No Moto Factory
Suzurandai
Takadanobaba
Tamano Branch Camp #3
Tanagawa
Tan Tui (or Tan tooey)
Teniya (or Temiya) Park Stadium
Tobata (Fukuoka #3)
Tomakomai
Toyama
Toyoka (or Toyooka)
Tsumori (Osaka Subcamp #13B)
Tsuruga Divisional Camp #5B
Tsurumi[disambiguation needed] Subcamp #5
Ube Subcamp #7
Umeda Bonshu (Osaka Warehouse)
Uraga
Utsonomiya
Uywake (or Iwake or Yuwake)
Wakasen
Wakayama
Wakinohama (Osaka #18-B)
Yamashita Camp #1
Yodogawa
Yokkaichi
Yokohama #5
Yonago
Yura
Zentsuji Headquarters Camp
Zentsuji Subcamp #3

heavenlyboy34
10-15-2012, 08:45 PM
5 star thread :cool:

Henry Rogue
10-15-2012, 08:45 PM
This whole thread reminds me of my own inner struggle with this point in history. My personal historical expertice is the Twentieth Air Force. The March 9 1945 raid on Tokyo destroyed 16 square miles and killed 100,000 people in one night, comparable to the atomic attacks. As long as people are posting reading material about this war, my contribution "Point of No Return" by Curts E. LeMay.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 08:47 PM
Ummmm, wut?



List of Japanese-run internment camps during World War II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese-run_internment_camps_during_World_War_II

This is an incomplete list of Japanese-run military prisoner-of-war and civilian internment camps during World War II.

Some of these camps were for prisoners of war (POW) only.

Some also held a mixture of POWs and civilian internees, while others held solely civilian internees.

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.

Published by the Medical Research Committee of American Ex-Prisoners of War, Inc., 1980.Contents [hide]

[edit] Camps in the PhilippinesCabanatuan
Camp O'Donnell
Los Baños
Santo Tomas Internment Camp
Bilibid Prison
Puerto Princesa Prison Camp
Camp John Hay
Camp Holmes
Camp Manganese, Guindulman, Bohol
[edit] Camps in Malaya/SingaporeChangi Prison
Salarang Barracks
River Valley Camp
Blakang Mati
Anderson School, Ipoh, Perak State, Malaya
Outram Road Prison
[edit] Camps in Formosa (modern Taiwan)Kinkaseki#1 Jinguashi
Taichu#2 (Taichung)
Heito#3 (PingTung)
Shirakawa#4 (Chiayi)
Taihoku#5 Mosak (Taipei)
Taihoku#6 (Taipei)
Karenko (Hualien)
Tamazato (YuLi)
Kukutsu (Taipei)
Oka (Taipei)
Toroku - (Touliu)
Inrin - (Yuanlin)
Inrin Temporary (Yuanlin)
Takao (Kaohsiung)
Churon (Taipei)
Tiahokum (Taipei)
[edit] Camps in North BorneoJesselton
Sandakan
[edit] Camps in SarawakBatu Lintang, Kuching
[edit] Camps in ChinaThe Weihsien Compound (Shandong)
Lunghua Civilian Assembly Center (Shanghai)
Lushun (Port Arthur) POW Camp
[edit] Camps in ManchuriaHoten Camp
[edit] Camps in Dutch East Indies (modern Indonesia)Pontianak POW camp, Pontianak (Dutch Borneo) (modern Kalimantan)
Balikpapan POW camp, Balikpapan (Dutch Borneo) (modern Kalimantan)
Makasura (Celebes)
Tandjong Priok POW camp, Tandjong Priok (Java)
Koan School, Batavia (modern Jakarta) (Java)
Glodok Gaol, Golodok, a suburb of Batavia (modern Jakarta) (Java)
Bicycle Camp, Batavia (modern Jakarta) (Java)
Bandung (Java)
Tjideng
Usapa Besar (Timor)
Ambarawa (Java)
Bangkong (Java)
Lampersari (Java)
Ambon (Ambon Island)
Banyu Biru (Java)
[edit] Camps in Thailand/BurmaNiki Niki
Kanchanaburi
Sonkrai
[edit] Camps in New GuineaRabaul
[edit] Camps in KoreaInchon
[edit] Camps in Hong KongArgyle Street Camp
Ma Tau Chong Camp
Ma Tau Wai Camp
North Point Camp
Sham Shui Po Camp
Stanley Internment Camp
[1]

[edit] Camps in Japan
Achi Yamakita
Aioshi
Akasaka
Akenobe #6B
Akita
Amagasaki Subcamp
Aokuma (or Okuma) (Fukuoka #22)
Aomori (Ōmori, Tokyo Base Camp #1)
Arao
Asahigawa
Ashio
Ashikago
Atami
Beppu
Bibai-Machi Branch Camp #3
Camp #11 (Fukuoka #11) (Later renamed #8)
Camp #23
Chiba
Chugenji (or Chuzenji)
Franciscan Monastery
Fukuoka #17
Fuji
Funatsu
Furashi
Furumaki
Fuse
Futase (Fukuoka #10, later renamed #7)
Futatsui City
Gifu - Nagara Hotel
Hakodate #2 (Utashinia or Akabira)
Hakodate #3 (Utashin1a)
Hakodate Divisional Camp
Hakodate Main Camp
Hakone
Hanawa Sendai #6
Harina (or Harima)
Hayashi Village
Higashi-Misone (Subcamp #10)
Himeji
Hiraoka (Subcamp #3)
Hirohata Divisional Camp
Hitachi (Ibaraki-Ken Camp #D12)
Hitachi Motoyama
Ichioka (or Itchioka) Stadium Hospital
Iizuka (Probably #7)
Ikuno (Osaka #4B)
Imoshima Island (Subcamp #2)
Kagawa Christian Fellowship Home
Kamioka
Kamiso Subcamp #1
Kamitan (or Kamita) Kozan (Sendai #11)
Kanagawa Kenko
Kanagawa Tokyo 2nd Div.
Kanazawa
Kanose
Kashii (or Kashu) Camp #1 (Fukuoka #1)
Kawasaki #1
Kawasaki Camp - Kobe
Kawasaki Dispatch Camp #5
Kawasaki Subcamp #2 ("Mitsui Madhouse")
Kempei Tai
Kita Corygara
Kobe
Kobe (Camp #31)
Kobe POW Hospital
Kōchi
Kosaka (Sendai Camp #8)
Koshian Hotel
Koyagi Shima (Fukuoka #2)
Kumamoto (First location of Fukuoka #1)
Kure
Kurume
Kyota - branches at Hakata
Maibara
Maisure
Minato-ku
Mito
Mitsu Branch Camp #5
Mitsuishi
Mitsushima (or Matsushima) Camp #2D
Miyata (Fukuoka #9B)
Mizumaki
Mizonkuchi
Moji #4
Moji Hospital
Morioka
Motoyama Subcamp #8
Mukaishima Island Subcamp #1 (Hiroshima Sub-Camp #4)
Murakami
Muroran (Kamiso Machi Camp #73)
Myoshi
Nakama #21 (Fukuoka #21) (Also spelled Nacama)
Nagasaki
Nagasaki #14
Nagasaki #2 (Same as #139)
Nagasaki #4
Nagoya Main Camp
Nagoya Subcamp #10
Narashino Airport
Narumi
Niigata (Subcamp #5)
Niihama Branch Camp #2
Nogeyama Park
Nooetzu (or Nooetsu) Prison Camp (Niigata Ken)
Notogawa #9B
Odate
Oeyama (or Oyama)
Ofuna Camp
Ohama Subcamp #9
Ohashi[disambiguation needed]
Old City Hall
Omine Subcamp #6
Ōmori Main Camp
Ōmuta Camp #17 Fukuoka 17
Onada Branch Camp #8
Onada Branch Camp #9
Osaka #1 Headquarters Camp (Chikko)
Osaka Central Market
Otaru
Oyeama
Park Central Camp
Park Central Stadium
Rangoon
Roku Roshi
Sakai Prison
Sakurajima
Sakurajima Ichioka School
Sapporo Penitentiary
Sasebo (Fukuoka #18)
Sekiguchi at Koishikawaku
Sendai
Shibaura
Shimodate
Shimomago Hitachi
Shimonseki
Shinagawa Main Camp
Shinagawa POW Hospital
Shingu[disambiguation needed]
Shinjuku Camp #1
Shizuoka
Subcamp #12 (Fukuoka #12)
Sumidagawa
Sumiyoshi-ku
Suzuki Aio No Moto Factory
Suzurandai
Takadanobaba
Tamano Branch Camp #3
Tanagawa
Tan Tui (or Tan tooey)
Teniya (or Temiya) Park Stadium
Tobata (Fukuoka #3)
Tomakomai
Toyama
Toyoka (or Toyooka)
Tsumori (Osaka Subcamp #13B)
Tsuruga Divisional Camp #5B
Tsurumi[disambiguation needed] Subcamp #5
Ube Subcamp #7
Umeda Bonshu (Osaka Warehouse)
Uraga
Utsonomiya
Uywake (or Iwake or Yuwake)
Wakasen
Wakayama
Wakinohama (Osaka #18-B)
Yamashita Camp #1
Yodogawa
Yokkaichi
Yokohama #5
Yonago
Yura
Zentsuji Headquarters Camp
Zentsuji Subcamp #3

It is common knowledge that the Japanese killed great amounts of POWs. Below you will find a controversial order from the Japanese military to terminate POWs:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/vhp-stories/loc.natlib.afc2001001.00454/enlarge?ID=pm0003001&page=1

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/natlib/afc2001001/service/00454/pm0003001r.jpg

donnay
10-15-2012, 08:53 PM
More non-sequitor nonsense. This discussion has nothing to do with the error of Japanese internment.


Secondly, Japan wasn't surrendering unilaterally. Read about the Kyujo Incident which occurred August 14th 1945, 5 DAYS AFTER THE DROPPING OF THE BOMBS. :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident




Does that sound like a power structure that wants to surrender??? You drop 2 earth shattering weapons on their populace and a coup d'etat is barely averted 5 days later!!! I really can't believe how historically ignorant some people are, in order to keep their fragile worldviews intact.




Admittedly, dropping the atomic bomb was a major factor in Japan's decision to accept the terms laid out at the Potsdam agreement otherwise known as unconditional surrender. The fact must be pointed out, however, that Japan had already been virtually defeated. (McInnis, 1945) Though the public did not know this, the allies, in fact, did. Through spies, they had learned that both Japan's foreign minister, Shigenori Togo and Emperor Hirohito both supported an end to the war (Grant, 1998). Even if they believed such reports to be false or inaccurate, the leaders of the United States also knew Japan's situation to be hopeless. Their casualties in defending the doomed island of Okinawa were a staggering 110,000 and the naval blockade which the allies had enforced whittled trade down to almost nothing. Japan was quickly on the path to destruction. (Grant, 1998). Of course, the Allies ignored this for the reason that dropping the atomic bomb on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would intimidate Russia. Had they truly been considering saving more lives and bringing a quick end to the war in Japan, they would have simply waited them out without the major loss of life seen at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=23634


January 1945 - MacArthur forwarded to the President a Japanese offer to
surrender to which was exactly what we accepted 7 months later. Had it
been accepted when first offered, there would have been no heavy loss
of life on Iwo Jima (over 26,033 Americans killed or wounded,
approximately 21,000 Japanese killed) and Okinawa (over 39,000 U.S.
dead and wounded, 109,000 Japanese dead), no fire bombing of Japanese
cities by B-29 bombers (it is estimated that the dropping of 1,700 tons
of incendiary explosives on Japanese cities during March 9th-10th alone
killed over 80,000 civilians and destroyed 260,000 buildings), and no
use of the atomic bomb (200,000 killed).

5 April 1945 - Japan appointed Prime Minister Suzuki Kantaro who was
known to be a peace advocate.

8 May 1945 - Japan tried to surrender through the Soviet Union.

June 1945 - Both the US Army and Navy recommended to Truman that he
clarify the US demands in regard to the Emperor. It was recognized that
he was absolutely essential so he could order his men to lay down their
arms. Without him, there would have been anarchy in Japan.....

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.japan/2005-08/msg00120.html



PEARL HARBOR
MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES

"...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." ARMY BOARD, 1944

President Roosevelt (FDR) provoked the attack, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn the Hawaiian commanders. FDR needed the attack to sucker Hitler to declare war, since the public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. It was his backdoor to war.

FDR blinded the commanders at Pearl Harbor and set them up by -

denying intelligence to Hawaii (HI)
on Nov 27, misleading the commanders into thinking negotiations with Japan were continuing to prevent them from realizing the war was on
having false information sent to HI about the location of the Japanese carrier fleet.


http://www.prisonplanet.com/pearl_harbor_mother_of_all_conspiracies.htm




A UNITED NATIONS PROJECT

In May of 1945, the architects of postwar strategy, or, as they liked to call themselves, the "Masters of the Universe", gathered in San Francisco at the plush Palace Hotel to write the Charter for the United Nations. Several of the principals retired for a private meeting in the exclusive Garden Room. The head of the United States delegation had called this secret meeting with his top aide, Alger Hiss, representing the president of the United States and the Soviet KGB; John Foster Dulles, of the Wall Street law firm of Sullivan and Cromwell, whose mentor, William Nelson Cromwell, had been called a "professional revolutionary" on the floor of Congress; and W. Averill Harriman, plenipotentiary extraordinary, who had spent the last two years in Moscow directing Stalin's war for survival. These four men represented the awesome power of the American Republic in world affairs, yet of the four, only Secretary of State Edward Stettinius Jr., had a position authorized by the Constitution. Stettinius called the meeting to order to discuss an urgent matter; the Japanese were already privately suing for peace, which presented a grave crisis. The atomic bomb would not be ready for several more months. "We have already lost Germany," Stettinius said. "If Japan bows out, we will not have a live population on which to test the bomb."

"But, Mr. Secretary," said Alger Hiss, "no one can ignore the terrible power of this weapon." "Nevertheless," said Stettinius, "our entire postwar program depends on terrifying the world with the atomic bomb." "To accomplish that goal," said John Foster Dulles, "you will need a very good tally. I should say a million." "Yes," replied Stettinius, "we are hoping for a million tally in Japan. But if they surrender, we won't have anything." "Then you have to keep them in the war until the bomb is ready," said John Foster Dulles. "That is no problem. Unconditional surrender." "They won't agree to that," said Stettinius. "They are sworn to protect the Emperor." "Exactly," said John Foster Dulles. "Keep Japan in the war another three months, and we can use the bomb on their cities; we will end this war with the naked fear of all the peoples of the world, who will then bow to our will."

http://www.whale.to/b/mullins8.html

Henry Rogue
10-15-2012, 08:56 PM
I can think of two Prisoners of War off the top of my head Pappy Boyington and Louis Zamperini.

FindLiberty
10-15-2012, 09:11 PM
Today's pervasive MIC scares me even more (77 years later).

Imagine the vengeful thoughts that must be racing through the minds of surviving family members and others trying to survive or recover in those countries that have been bombed, invaded and sanctioned into Hell-like living conditions resulting from Amerikan military aggression. Worse yet, some of them also have nuke armed superpower friends / customers that have been watching and someday may decide the USA needs to be "stopped" from pursuing it's insatiable thirst for blood and world domination as "we" print too much fiat money and elect a dictator who promises to fix everything...

It's kinda’ like WW2 was portrayed in the 1940's, but this time the USA is the evil bad ass bully in their eyes.

I don't want this whole thing to play out on my watch, but I fear it might be inevitable no matter what we do: [jump to 2:00 and finally, "We'll just see... won't we"]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMI1uQBHUpA&feature=related

Henry Rogue
10-15-2012, 09:22 PM
By the way, excellent original post AF. It took me a long time to come to that conclusion. I always had a lot of respect for the servicemen that fought in that war or any. It was hard for me to accept that something they took part in could be wrong or immoral.

donnay
10-15-2012, 09:27 PM
All wars we were dragged into were predicated on lies. Many good men, women and innocent people died because of the decisions of a small group of psychopaths.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 09:32 PM
By the way, excellent original post AF. It took me a long time to come to that conclusion. I always had a lot of respect for the servicemen that fought in that war or any. It was hard for me to accept that something they took part in could be wrong or immoral.

THAT is the meme. Who could refuse to "SUPPORT THE TROOPS?" The real question resides in HOW you help the troops. You don't send them to die for a corporations bottom dollar. Smedley Butler had it right. His viewpoint I have NEVER seen on TV or in a classroom.

coastie
10-15-2012, 09:33 PM
THAT is the meme. Who could refuse to "SUPPORT THE TROOPS?" The real question resides in HOW you help the troops. You don't send them to die for a corporations bottom dollar. Smedley Butler had it right. His viewpoint I have NEVER seen on TV or in a classroom.

I promise you his point was there when I was in a classroom last year.;)

EBounding
10-15-2012, 09:33 PM
We believe that these considerations make the use of nuclear bombs for an early, unannounced attack against Japan inadvisable. If the United States would be the first to release this new means of indiscriminate destruction upon mankind, she would sacrifice public support throughout the world, precipitate the race of armaments, and prejudice the possibility of reaching an international agreement on the future control of such weapons.

hmmm...

FindLiberty
10-15-2012, 09:35 PM
By the way, excellent original post AF. It took me a long time to come to that conclusion. I always had a lot of respect for the servicemen that fought in that war or any. It was hard for me to accept that something they took part in could be wrong or immoral.

The servicemen and servicewomen were sucked (or suckered) into it all by the self-serving bias and lies from an immoral MIC and top schemers drunk with power. And, the ball is still in play...

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 09:37 PM
I promise you his point was there when I was in a classroom last year.;)

Good on you!

ninepointfive
10-15-2012, 09:37 PM
all is fair in war

Henry Rogue
10-15-2012, 09:45 PM
All is unfair in war.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 09:50 PM
all is fair in war

Well fuck. Why put "boots on the ground" anywhere. Shoulda just nuked Iraq. And Afghanistan. And Syria. And Libya. Fuck what a great concept.

Then again perhaps we actually debate the concept of WAR. At least in Congress.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 09:50 PM
all is fair in war

Correct. That's why you avert war at all costs instead of letting it metastasize to inescapable depths. The U.S. should have never gone to war in the Pacific to begin. But certain questionable events led to the entrance into the war and the fuse was lit. Given the fierce nature of the campaign and brutality that ensued, no one should be shocked in the manner in which it ended. That's what happens in war. One side is demolished and shamed.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 09:59 PM
One side is demolished and shamed.

Yep. Pretty shameful and a result of our actions closed to demolished.

AuH20
10-15-2012, 10:03 PM
Yep. Pretty shameful and a result of our actions closed to demolished.

The protective qualities of the Divine Wind were abit overstated.

phill4paul
10-15-2012, 10:19 PM
The protective qualities of the Divine Wind were abit overstated.

I spoke of us. Not of them.

tangent4ronpaul
10-15-2012, 10:24 PM
Have to disagree with the OP.

Japan was preparing to fight to the last man, woman and child - if invaded. Large numbers of kamakazi subs (torpedo w/ driver) were prepared along with other weapons to fend off an invasion and women and children were drilled on how to use a bamboo spear as a weapon.

Secondly, in the wings was waiting another weapon that would have made a quarter million casualties look like pocket change...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDX9rRuHcn8

We didn't need to have dropped the SECOND bomb. Japan was ready to surrender after the first.

-t

AuH20
10-15-2012, 10:36 PM
Have to disagree with the OP.

Japan was preparing to fight to the last man, woman and child - if invaded. Large numbers of kamakazi subs (torpedo w/ driver) were prepared along with other weapons to fend off an invasion and women and children were drilled on how to use a bamboo spear as a weapon.

Secondly, in the wings was waiting another weapon that would have made a quarter million casualties look like pocket change...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDX9rRuHcn8

We didn't need to have dropped the SECOND bomb. Japan was ready to surrender after the first.

-t
Death in service of their living god, the Emperor was preferred to the lifelong shame of surrender to the Americans. When you examine Japanese society at that time, it was literally a cult of personality.

tangent4ronpaul
10-15-2012, 10:44 PM
If anyone is interested in learning more about the bat bomb, there is a book out there by that title about the project and it's also documented in Louis Feiser's (inventor of napalm) very rare book: "The Scientific Method; Unusual projects during war and peace".

-t

AuH20
10-15-2012, 10:46 PM
Revealing background on Emperor Hirohito and his fascination with bioweapons (Unit 731).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-K6AaM_yds

The Americans later gave the head scientists and researchers of Unit 731 immunity from their crimes in return for compliance.

QuickZ06
10-15-2012, 11:04 PM
Have to disagree with the OP.

Japan was preparing to fight to the last man, woman and child - if invaded. Large numbers of kamakazi subs (torpedo w/ driver) were prepared along with other weapons to fend off an invasion and women and children were drilled on how to use a bamboo spear as a weapon.

Secondly, in the wings was waiting another weapon that would have made a quarter million casualties look like pocket change...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDX9rRuHcn8

We didn't need to have dropped the SECOND bomb. Japan was ready to surrender after the first.

-t

http://imageshack.us/a/img441/563/3oc7up.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/3oc7up.jpg/)

James Madison
10-15-2012, 11:10 PM
Revealing background on Emperor Hirohito and his fascination with bioweapons (Unit 731).



Don't worry. Bioweapons will be used in WW3, and they will probably eradicate humanity. Oh well, all's fair in love and war, right?

donnay
10-15-2012, 11:21 PM
How To Start a War: The American Use of War Pretext Incidents

(...)

1941: World War II

CONTEXT US fascists opposed President Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR) from the start. In 1933, “America's richest businessmen were in a panic. Roosevelt intended to conduct a massive redistribution of wealth…[and it] had to be stopped at all costs. The answer was a military coup…secretly financed and organized by leading officers of the Morgan and du Pont empires.”36

A top Wall Street conspirator said: "We need a fascist government in this country…to save the nation from the communists who want to tear it down and wreck all that we have built.”37

The Committee on Un-American Activities said: “Sworn testimony showed that the plotters represented notable families -- Rockefeller, Mellon, Pew, Pitcairn, Hutton and great enterprises -- Morgan, Dupont, Remington, Anaconda, Bethlehem, Goodyear, GMC, Swift, Sun.”38

FDR also faced “isolationist” sentiments from such millionaires who shared Hitler’s hatred of communism and had financed Hitler’s rise to power as George Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush, predecessors of the current president.39 William R.Hearst, mid-wife of the war with Spain, opposed a war against fascism. Hearst employed Hitler, Mussolini and Goering as writers. He met Hitler in 1934 and used Readers’ Digest and his 33 newspapers to support fascism.40

PRETEXT On December 7, 1941, Japanese bombers attacked the US Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbour, Hawaii, killing about 2,460.41

FDR, and his closest advisors, not only knew of the attack in advance and did not prevent it, they had actually provoked it. Lt. Arthur McCollum, head of the Far East desk for U.S. Navy intelligence, wrote a detailed eight-step plan on October 7, 1940 that was designed to provoke an attack.42 FDR immediately set the covert plan in motion. Soon after implementing the final step, Japan attacked Pearl Harbour.

After meeting FDR on October 16, 1941, Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote: "We face the delicate question of the diplomatic fencing to be done so as to be sure Japan is put into the wrong and makes the first bad move -- overt move.” On November 25, after another meeting with FDR, Stimson wrote: "The question was: how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot.”43

The next day, an insulting “ultimatum” was delivered to the Japanese. The US intercepted a coded Japanese cable calling the ultimatum a “humiliating proposal” and saying they would now prepare for war with the US.44

The US had cracked Japanese diplomatic and military codes.45 A Top Secret Army Board report (October 1944), shows that the US military knew “the probable exact hour and date of the attack.”46 On November 29, 1941, the Secretary of State revealed to a reporter that the attack’s time and place was known. This foreknowledge was reported in the New York Times (Dec. 8, 1941).47

RESPONSE After Pearl Harbour, the US quickly declared war against Japan. With media support, “Remember Pearl Harbour!” became an American rallying cry. On December 11, Germany and Italy declared war on the US.

As the war wound down, decoded messages revelaed to the US military that Japan would soon surrender. They knew the atomic destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unnecessary. Although nuclear weapons are commonly believed to have ended WWII, they were an opening salvo in the Cold War against the USSR.

REAL REASONS The US used WWII to maneuver itself into a position of superiority over former imperial rivals in Europe. In Parenti’s words the US “became the prime purveyor and guardian of global capitalism.”48 As the only nation wielding nuclear weapons, the US also became the world’s sole superpower.

Read more: http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/2-sanders-r1.1.1.html

Free in CT
10-16-2012, 11:57 AM
In an address to the National Geographic Society on January * 25, 1946, Admiral Nimitz again said: The atomic bomb merely hastened a process already reaching an inevitable conclusion. *. *. *. 5

Admiral William D. * Leahy, in his book, says: .*. *. It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons. It was my reaction that the scientists and others wanted to make this test because of the vast sums that had been spent on the project. *. *. *. 6

It is desirable for the record also to call attention to the observations on the dropping of the bomb by other leaders of the time. Lord Hankey, a member of the British War Cabinet, states: .*. *. the Leaders of the Western Allies decided at Potsdam in July, 1945, to resort to the ultimate expedient of the atomic bomb. It was a strange and risky decision. They knew that the bomb was the most cruel and deadly weapon that had ever been produced, and that its effects would fall indiscriminately on civilian and military targets. They knew that Japan had already approached Russia with a view to peace discussions. They knew that Russia was on the point of declaring war on Japan. Yet in this fatuous fight for a phrase, they would not pause to seek some more normal means of obtaining the terms they needed, nor would they wait to learn the effect of the Russian declaration of war. There is no published evidence to show that they even inquired whether the use of the bomb was consistent with international law. *. *. *. .*. *. If the enemy had solved the atomic problem and used the bomb first, its employment would have been included in the allied list of war crimes, and those who took the decision or who prepared and used the bomb, would have been condemned and hanged. 7

Mr. * Hanson Baldwin, one of our great military students and a man of conscience, summarized the thoughts of many when he said: The utilization of the atomic bomb against a prostrate and defeated Japan in the closing days of the war exemplifies— even more graphically than any of the mistakes previously recounted— the narrow, astigmatic concentration of our planners upon one goal, and one alone: victory.

Hoover, Herbert; Nash, George H. (2011-11-07). Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover's Secret History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath (pp. 567-568). Hoover Institution Press. Kindle Edition.

AGRP
10-16-2012, 12:05 PM
Don't worry. Bioweapons will be used in WW3, and they will probably eradicate humanity. Oh well, all's fair in love and war, right?

Nukes too and only when two counties use them. USA and Israel.

Anti Federalist
10-16-2012, 12:32 PM
Don't worry. Bioweapons will be used in WW3, and they will probably eradicate humanity. Oh well, all's fair in love and war, right?

It is this that causes me to assert that all technology is not "value neutral".

There are some technologies so evil that the only rational thing to be done is to burn them down, bulldoze them into the ground and salt the earth where they stood.

Sadly, we do not live in rational times.

brandon
10-16-2012, 12:51 PM
WTF is "The MIC"?

acptulsa
10-16-2012, 12:56 PM
WTF is "The MIC"?

If you had kept reading the thread, you'd know by now.

Don't look at me. I don't believe in either spoon feeding adults or instant gratification.

Here, make a two and a half minute investment:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

brandon
10-16-2012, 01:18 PM
If you had kept reading the thread, you'd know by now.

Don't look at me. I don't believe in either spoon feeding adults or instant gratification.

Here, make a two and a half minute investment:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

Thanks, maybe I'm a slow reader, but it took me like 10 minutes just to get through the first page of the thread and I still had no idea.

acptulsa
10-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Thanks, maybe I'm a slow reader, but it took me like 10 minutes just to get through the first page of the thread and I still had no idea.

Not at all. I might sound grumpy, but I actually really like having an excuse to post that video.

James Madison
10-16-2012, 02:11 PM
Nukes too and only when two counties use them. USA and Israel.

I can handle nukes. It's weaponized smallpox that cocerns me the most.

awake
10-16-2012, 02:33 PM
There stands only one county with nuclear weapons who has used them on another country. Starving Iran will never overshadow this fact. Maybe next year the Nobel "Peace" prize can go to the US for dropping nukes on Japan all in a benevolent effort to secure world peace. What a perverse joke.

coastie
10-16-2012, 03:24 PM
I can handle nukes. It's weaponized smallpox that cocerns me the most.

Hopefully that's the strain I was vaccinated against.....:eek:

donnay
10-16-2012, 04:21 PM
I can handle nukes. It's weaponized smallpox that cocerns me the most.


Then you better make sure you have a very strong immune system then, and make sure if you stay in a hotel you check the beds for bedbugs.