**Official** VP debate thread - Joe Biden vs. Paul Ryan

[jct74]

http://media2.fox11online.com//photo/2012/09/07/Biden-Ryan_20120907131408_320_240.JPG

Vice Presidential Debate - Thursday October 11, 2012

Topic: Foreign and domestic policy

Air Time: 9:00-10:30 p.m. Eastern Time

Location: Centre College in Danville, Kentucky (Tickets)

Sponsor: Commission on Presidential Debates

Participants: Vice President Joe Biden and Congressman Paul Ryan

Moderator: Martha Raddatz (ABC News Chief Foreign Correspondent)

The debate will cover both foreign and domestic topics and be divided into nine time segments of approximately 10 minutes each. The moderator will ask an opening question, after which each candidate will have two minutes to respond. The moderator will use the balance of the time in the segment for a discussion of the question.

http://www.2012presidentialelectionnews.com/2012-debate-schedule/2012-presidential-debate-schedule/



livestream:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_IafCIZx1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_IafCIZx1Q

[kathy88]

I think I'll watch the Steelers game instead. I'll read about it tomorrow.

[VBRonPaulFan]

biden is pretty quick with his quips, i wouldn't be surprised if he comes out on top in this debate... not necessarily on substance, more on style.

[coastie]

I think this thread has more of a chance of being entertaining than watching the debate.

[Smart3]

I think I'll watch the Steelers game instead. I'll read about it tomorrow.
Sports is more of a waste of time than Politics.

Biden will annihilate Ryan.

[kathy88]

Sports is more of a waste of time than Politics.

Biden will annihilate Ryan.

That sounds like an opinion. And why on earth would you care what I do with MY time?

[Peace&Freedom]

In the big picture scheme of things, Team Obama is well ahead electoral college-wise, so they'll continue to play in 'prevent defense' mode. Ryan (like Mitt last week) will get in plenty of shots, but won't be allowed to get anything deep.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Shouldn't this thread have a Matt Collins stamp of approval before officially being labeled **Official**?

http://i.imgur.com/IbnOJ.png

[RickyJ]

I think this one will be much better than the first presidential debate. I know they are both liars and sellouts, but the sheeple don't know that and I want to have all the ammunition I can to destroy their hope in these candidates. Lots of lies will be told tonight, and most sheeple on both sides will eat it up like candy. My prediction is Biden will "win" the debate and make Ryan look like a very poor choice for VP for Romney.

[ronpaulfollower999]

Turd Sandwich v. Giant Douche

[bunklocoempire]

I think this thread has more of a chance of being entertaining than watching the debate.

Yes. More informative as well.

Another episode of "America Dances Around The Truth".

[Sola_Fide]

Tweedle dee and tweedle dum

[Keith and stuff]

What is the best way to watch the debate live online?

[kathy88]

Tweedle dee and tweedle dum

Tweedle dum and Tweedle dumber.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

What is the best way to watch the debate live online?

Drunk.

Oh you meant a stream? http://www.youtube.com/politics

[ghengis86]

Drunk.

Oh you meant a stream? http://www.youtube.com/politics

Well played

[John F Kennedy III]

Tweedle dum and Tweedle dumber.

My thoughts exactly.

[cajuncocoa]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/30348_10151091489902894_1952595884_n.jpg

[bunklocoempire]

Oh me liver.

But then again, to protect my liver I have to vote against it -I certainly don't want my liver put back in chains..

[jkr]

im gonna play TRON instead...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6znqGpUNSE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7GMjYq4SUg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dmzKqGNxDc&feature=plcp

and

the ULTIMATE sMACk DowN


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMnPRp-Aruk&NR=1&feature=endscreen


tRonPaul n2012

endofline

[sailingaway]

What is the best way to watch the debate live online?

here's cspan http://t.co/xWcW2nfB

or maybe shrimp's link. Sometimes one bogs down and it is good to have a back up.

[sailingaway]

Jon Schwarz ‏@tinyrevolution
We do have a choice tonight: Biden voted for the Iraq war 10 years ago today, while by contrast Ryan voted for war 10 years ago yesterday.

[JK/SEA]

Sports is more of a waste of time than Politics.

Biden will annihilate Ryan.

wasting TIME is taking the TIME to tell someone their wasting TIME....and so it goes...

[JK/SEA]

I'll be watching just for the laughs.

[brandon]

Alright link me to the best drinking game so I can get wasted and fall asleep within a half hour.

[JK/SEA]

Just saw Rand sitting next to Mitch in the audience.

[specsaregood]

biden is pretty quick with his quips, i wouldn't be surprised if he comes out on top in this debate... not necessarily on substance, more on style.

yeah, i fully expect biden to "win" this wrestling match.

[JK/SEA]

Alright link me to the best drinking game so I can get wasted and fall asleep within a half hour.

everytime Biden points his finger...one Patron shot.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

**Official** VP debate thread - Joe Biden vs. Paul Ryan

It's not an official thread unless Collins creates it.

[Brett85]

Just saw Rand sitting next to Mitch in the audience.

They've showed Rand twice already.

[Brian4Liberty]

What words are we drinking on?

[Brian4Liberty]

"911". Drink!

[bunklocoempire]

So Biden fathered Obamas dog and then the dog joined up?

Remember our veterinarians?

[bunklocoempire]

Malarky!

[JK/SEA]

so far i like ol' joe....

[cajuncocoa]

so far i like ol' joe....Me too. It's pretty embarrassing when Joe Biden is cleaning your clock!!

[Keith and stuff]

Biden is doing a horrible job so far.

[sailingaway]

trending now

Ralph Hornsby ‏@RalphHornsby
Christopher Walken Gives Dramatic Reading of Scenes from Here Comes Honey Boo Boo | Trending Now - Yahoo! News http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-now/christopher-walken-gives-dramatic-reading-scenes-comes-honey-182609405.html …

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

First time I have listened to Paul Ryan for any period of time. Not impressed.

Just sounds like a warmongering Israel First creep to me. I hope Biden thrashes him and stops him from becoming Rand's competition in 2016 or 2020.

[jay_dub]

so far i like ol' joe....

Ryan seems to be trying to get America to go along with the Neo-Con paranoia.

[AngryCanadian]

Biden is doing a horrible job so far.
Both of them are war mongers what did you expect? from a lib point of view, i believe he might be winning it correct?

[Agorism]

I'm watching the debate, which is mostly talking about Israel and Iran so far.

It's highly disturbing that Rand Paul endorses and campaigns with that guy...

[Texan4Life]

Ryan seems to be trying to get America to go along with the Neo-Con paranoia.

yay I lol'ed when ryan said if iran got a nuke, it would start an arms race in the middle east... Doesnt most of Iran's neighbors already have nukes?

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Me too. It's pretty embarrassing when Joe Biden is cleaning your clock!!


Biden is doing a horrible job so far.

It's funny that these two posts appeared right before/after one another.

[JK/SEA]

oh gawd...get out the violins..

[cajuncocoa]

Ryan seems to be trying to get America to go along with the Neo-Con paranoia.Of course he is! And blowing kisses to the GOP base too.

[Texan4Life]

oh gawd...get out the violins..

lol... OMG romney cares!!!

[coffeewithgames]

Which one has produced a plan to balance the budget within the next 4 years?

[cajuncocoa]

So...we couldn't afford a prescription drug program (true) but now we can afford a massive health care program??

[NoOneButPaul]

This is so painful I had to turn it off to watch the O's try to pull one...

[Keith and stuff]

Both of them are war mongers what did you expect? from a lib point of view, i believe he might be winning it correct?

From a libertarian point of view, they are both horrible on Iran/Iraq/Is... but Biden is much worse on US fiscal issues. Plus, Biden is just saying a bunch of random stuff not related to anything.

[jay_dub]

Which one has produced a plan to balance the budget within the next 4 years?

What could have been.....it's depressing. :(

[bunklocoempire]

From a libertarian point of view, they are both horrible on Iran/Iraq/Is... but Biden is much worse on US fiscal issues. Plus, Biden is just saying a bunch of random stuff not related to anything.

lol

It's like a 'out mention a bunch of random stuff' contest.

[cajuncocoa]

Joe is giggling too much.

[Texan4Life]

MARTHA!!!

[LS4702]

They are both horrible

[cajuncocoa]

It really annoys me when people talk about "paying for a tax cut"....it's OUR money, morons!! You're not paying it, WE ARE!!

[smithtg]

gawd, Joe is such a dickhead. Id love to slap that freaking fake smile off his mouth

They both want to spend like hell, face it we are screwed (yes we are Paul)

[brandon]

Biden looking much better. Ryan seems to just be making shit up.

[smithtg]

the class warfare is stupid, Im soooo tired of hearing about rich hedge fund managers and the "super" wealthy. You all spend too damn much and I get nothing you losers

[smithtg]

It really annoys me when people talk about "paying for a tax cut"....it's OUR money, morons!! You're not paying it, WE ARE!!

second to that

[Jumbo Shrimp]

What words are we drinking on?

All of them.

[smithtg]

joe likes to interrupt

[JK/SEA]

yeah...it went downhill after the foreign policy segment...

[smithtg]

i love how "wealthy" people dont "need" the money. Its socialism at its finest

[Rudeman]

Biden's interruptions are annoying as hell.

[smithtg]

defense, they both want to spend. move on

[cajuncocoa]

Biden's interruptions are annoying as hell.Agreed. My husband and I were just saying Biden is being incredibly RUDE. (And wasn't Biden the one who asked Ryan not to interrupt him??)

[aloneinthewilderness]

It's obvious that Biden has been trained to interrupt constantly. I guess it works, but he's coming across like a complete douchebag.

[Ivash]

This site is probably the least biased one I can go on.

Who is winning?

[smithtg]

"nobody wants the automatic defense cuts" from the moderator. Too damn funny These "cuts" are really "cuts" on INCREASES paul

[jay_dub]

On the facts, Biden is more accurate. If I was in the 2 party bubble, I'd say Biden is winning this one.

Plus, Ryan is just a dick. He tried to school Biden, a very experienced Senator, on how to get things done legislatively. :rolleyes:

[smithtg]

the dems lose on the defense questions. Too many people love the MIC and the 'jobs' wars bring

[jay_dub]

LOL, Biden was just flipping Ryan off when pointing at him. He was slick by holding his pen, but I saw that birdie. :p

[Ivash]

I have 1 Biden, 0 Ryan (except on defense?)

[Keith and stuff]

This site is probably the least biased one I can go on.

Who is winning?

It is hard to tell. Biden did debate the moderator for a while. He beat the moderator.

[specsaregood]

He tried to school Biden, a very experienced Senator, on how to get things done legislatively. :rolleyes:
This ^
+

LOL, Biden was just flipping Ryan off when pointing at him. He was slick by holding his pen, but I saw that birdie. :p
this ^
= lol.

[Ivash]

It is hard to tell. Biden did debate the moderator for a while. He beat the moderator.

I understand that it honestly depends on how the media spins it, more than what the debaters do. I missed most of the debate, though.

So it is mostly a draw then? Okay.

[Rudeman]

Biden probably would have won this if he didn't go through an extended period of constantly interrupting Ryan.

[cajuncocoa]

This site is probably the least biased one I can go on.

Who is winning?I thought Biden was winning early on, but I'm not feeling so strongly about that now. I think his interruptions and his giggling are taking points away from him.

[specsaregood]

I understand that it honestly depends on how the media spins it, more than what the debaters do. I missed most of the debate, though.

So it is mostly a draw then? Okay.

Well its tough to have a winner and loser when they both pretty much agree on every major position.

[wgadget]

Joe is cantankerous. Paul is a little neocon.

[Sola_Fide]

Why am I watching this?

[wgadget]

Can't imagine EITHER of them as President.

[cajuncocoa]

Joe is cantankerous. Paul is a little neocon.Yes, this.

[Dr.3D]

It's obvious that Biden has been trained to interrupt constantly. I guess it works, but he's coming across like a complete douchebag.
Well, he thinks he has a higher IQ than the rest of us.

[Tod]

Waiting for Ron Paul to walk onto the set, dope-slap them both, and school both of them and the rest of us about the folly of their ways and what we need to do.

[Carehn]

I wish Alex Jones what the moderator.

[osan]

God in heaven help me... it is very tiresome. Ryan is certainly holding his own against Biden so far, but so what? The whole deal is lame and the moderator ultra-sucks.

I think I will go do something comparatively useful and edifying... like setting myself on fire...

[jclay2]

I wish Alex Jones what the moderator.

That would be awesome. I can see it now, "You new world order scum....."

[Ivash]

Yeah Biden's been pretty aggressive. It irritates me, but I can't talk for other people. I think it will turn people off, but in a day or two they might think it justified.

[Lucille]

@nickgillespie RT @radleybalko: You know what's depressing as hell? When a moderator in a U.S. presidential debate can say, "let's move to another war"

http://reason.com/blog/2012/10/11/reason-live-tweets-the-2012-vice-preside

[DerailingDaTrain]

Woman At VP Debate Calls Obama A Communist and gets confronted by Chris Matthews


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2E87gciwebw

[Rudeman]

Why am I watching this?

I watch it for the laughs. When Romney loses Ryan shouldn't be too hard to beat in the 2016 debates, so that's a plus for Rand.

[sailingaway]

LOLGOP ‏@LOLGOP
Conservatives have imagined Paul Ryan is a superstar. That's what happens when you compare someone to Eric Cantor.

[Stellwagen]

Just turned it off. I've never had to do that before. This debate is soooo boring. And depressing....not even a mention of all the civilian casualties.

[cajuncocoa]

I watch it for the laughs. When Romney loses Ryan shouldn't be too hard to beat in the 2016 debates, so that's a plus for Rand.If you think the majority of GOP voters are suddenly going to give up their taste for (sending other people's children to) war, I have a bridge to sell you.

[sailingaway]

The Money Game ‏@themoneygame
RYAN: "Nobody is proposing sending troops to Syria." But.... #VPDebate http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/romney-syria-troops_n_1829417.html

[VBRonPaulFan]

Yeah Biden's been pretty aggressive. It irritates me, but I can't talk for other people. I think it will turn people off, but in a day or two they might think it justified.

He was probably told to be aggressive because of the romney/obama debate and the takeaway from obamas lack.of aggressiveness.

[JK/SEA]

I wanna know if they believe in UFO's...

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Now the Catholic question. I hope Biden reminds voters how he's been forbidden from taking part in the Eucharist by his bishop.

[down_south]

gawd, Joe is such a dickhead. Id love to slap that freaking fake smile off his mouth

They both want to spend like hell, face it we are screwed (yes we are Paul)

I've been thinking the same thing all night.

[Ivash]

LOLGOP ‏@LOLGOP
Conservatives have imagined Paul Ryan is a superstar. That's what happens when you compare someone to Eric Cantor.

Seriously. He hasn't been horrible, but he hasn't been great. He's held his own, but nothing more.

[Anti Federalist]

I wish Alex Jones what the moderator.

I'd pay good money to see that.

[DeMintConservative]

Overcompensating: Biden taking it to a whole new level tonight.

[Brian4Liberty]

Is the moderator going to cry? There's no crying in debates!!

[MozoVote]

Gonna skip this. Maybe there will be interesting YouTube highlights tomorrow.

[JK/SEA]

maybe Ryan will win on a 'hail mary'.....

[Rudeman]

If you think the majority of GOP voters are suddenly going to give up their taste for (sending other people's children to) war, I have a bridge to sell you.

I never said that, I just don't think Ryan will be as big of a threat in 2016 that some may have feared (I could be wrong though). Obviously there will be other pro-war Republicans running.

[Anti Federalist]

I wanna know if they believe in UFO's...

http://tobescifitakeover.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/9189283.jpg?w=604

[down_south]

I'd have to give this to Ryan so far. How could one conclude Joe Biden winning this?? He interrupts, laughs, provides no facts. Typical Democrats....lies, hate, red herrings, straw mans, half truths.......and of course Paul Ryan gets defensive when the topic of cutting defense comes up.

[messana]

Moderator: "Abortion is such an emotional issue."

More like a talking point. I guess the issue of a foreign policy that mass murders countless of people isn't.

[cajuncocoa]

I never said that, I just don't think Ryan will be as big of a threat in 2016 that some may have feared (I could be wrong though). Obviously there will be other pro-war Republicans running.I know you didn't say that; I did. That's the crap that Rand will be up against...nothing will change with these war-mongering people in 4 or 8 years.

[wgadget]

Hasnt Paul Ryan been in congress for like all his working life?

What has he done to solve anything?

Seems to me that he voted FOR TARP, FOR THE BUSH STIMULUS, FOR MEDICARE PART D, FOR THE BANK BAILOUTS, ETC, etc, etc.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

That was the worst moderator ever.

Biden sure ended on a oddly deflated tone, after insane yelling, laughing and interupting throughout the beginning and middle. Almost like his cocaine high ended.

[JK/SEA]

damn...its over...

[Iptay]

LOL when Ryan said they would bring real reforms!

[cajuncocoa]

Twitter frowns on Joe Biden's laugh (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1012/82313.html)

[RonPaulFanInGA]

TIME’s Michael Scherer: “Not sure debate cameras have been light tested for Biden’s teeth. Best to watch with sunglasses.”

NBC’s David Gregory: “Biden’s smile is out of control.”

BuzzFeed’s Ben Smith: “So did Biden practice laughing at Ryan???”

ABC’s Rick Klein: “Biden on verge of breaking down in laughter when Ryan talks.”

Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza: “Ok. I have decided. I find the Biden smile slightly unsettling”

PBS’ Jeff Greenfield: “Biden has always had a smile that at times is really, really inappropriate.”

The New York Times’ Ashley Parker: “Biden’s grin is Chesire Cat caliber.”

Movie critic Roger Ebert: “Joe! Stop smiling and laughing!”

Washington Post’s Jennifer Rubin: “Biden’s laughing is losing the debate- obnoxious”

Comedy Central’s Indecision: “If this keeps up much longer, Joe Biden’s going to sprain his laugh muscles.”

[SilentBull]

Ryan was freaking awful!!! Biden should have been the easiest guy to destroy in a debate. Even with Biden looking like an asshole, I still think Ryan looked worse.

[DeMintConservative]

CNBC Poll
56-36 Ryan win.

[Rudeman]

Ryan wasn't very impressive. I think it was more of Biden being an obnoxious jerk that evened out the debate. Overall both teams will think they won but independents will probably be turned off by Biden's antics.

[cajuncocoa]

I think it's fair to say there was no clear winner tonight....but there is a definite loser: the American people.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

CNBC Poll
56-36 Ryan win.

Biden would have won if he didn't come off like a condescending ass. Reminded me off that one candidate (Giuliani? Romney?) that kept snickering and laughing when Paul was speaking at a debate back in 2007.

[cajuncocoa]

Biden would have won if he didn't come off like a condesending ass. Reminded me off that one candidate (Giuliani? Romney?) that kept snickering and laughing when Paul was speaking at a debate back in 2007.Giuliani.

[Bruno]

I think it's fair to say there was no clear winner tonight....but there is a definite loser: the American people.

You just described nearly ever presidential debate in the last three decades.

[brandon]

ALright I'm drunk you assholes. AMA.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

I think it's fair to say there was no clear winner tonight....but there is a definite loser: the American people.

Isn't that every night?

Well every night until Rand Paul is sworn in as POTUS in January 2017.

[DeMintConservative]

Twitter Frowns on Joe Biden’s Laughing http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1012/82313.html

[RickyJ]

CNBC Poll
56-36 Ryan win.

They didn't watch the same debate I did, Biden kicked his ass.

[ClydeCoulter]

When blowing up hot air balloons, it's not the one with the most air, it's the one with the hotest air that rises faster.

edit: "What's that got to do with the price of beans"?

[RonPaulFanInGA]

They didn't watch the same debate I did, Biden kicked his ass.

They must not have, because in the one I saw, Biden acted like a fool. Laughing, smirking, interrupting...very unbecoming of the dignity of the office of the Vice President.

[osan]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Carehn http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=4682499#post4682499)
I wish Alex Jones w[as] the moderator.


I'd pay good money to see that.

Not me.

I would, however, pay even better money to see them all thrust into the coliseum in the company of a large pride of famished lions.

[cindy25]

I listened to the debate, while on the computer, so it was almost like radio. and I thought Biden won.

but my son, who watched it closely, said Ryan won because of Biden's expressions.

just like Kennedy Nixon (which is on line)

[RickyJ]

They must not have, because in the one I saw, Biden acted like a fool. Laughing, smirking, interrupting...very unbecoming of the dignity of the office of the Vice President.

Well when he heard the big whoppers Ryan was telling what was he suppose to do? I laughed too! I can't believe that would bother you, you do realize it was a debate do you not?

[DeMintConservative]

Biden interrupted Ryan 88 times.

He was a douchebag.

Biden will win in places like NYC but I doubt his antics will play well where it matters, in the Midwest.

[RickyJ]

Biden interrupted Ryan 88 times.

He was a douchebag.

Biden will win in places like NYC but I doubt his antics will play well where it matters, in the Midwest.

You only think that because you like Romney and Ryan. An unbiased person will not see it that way.

[dbill27]

Biden came across as a complete obnoxious asshole, not really surprising.

[supermario21]

Ryan won, but this election would be over if we had Ron Paul. Or at least Rand. We would have more contrast with them (favorably) if we advocated more non-interventionism and fewer foreign wars.

[dbill27]

You only think that because you like Romney and Ryan. An unbiased person will not see it that way.

I did. I guess you have to be biased to think someone is an asshole to be laughing during a debate when someone is talking about foreign policy.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Well when he heard the big whoppers Ryan was telling what was he suppose to do? I laughed too! I can't believe that would bother you, you do realize it was a debate do you not?

Did it not bother you when Giuliani was yukking it up at what he probably believed to be Ron Paul's "whoppers"?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?1614-Giuliani-Laughs-at-Habeas-Corpus-amp-Ron-Paul


You only think that because you like Romney and Ryan. An unbiased person will not see it that way.

"You only think Biden won because you want Obama to win. An unbiased person will not see it that way."

[fr33]

Because of Mitt Romney's rabid neocon foreign policy, Joe Biden was able to score points as an anti-war politician (which he is not). Big mistake GOP. Going full retard on interventionism is not a smart move.

[DeMintConservative]

I did. I guess you have to be biased to think someone is an asshole to be laughing during a debate when someone is talking about foreign policy.

Not necessarily. Maybe he just doesn't mind that stuff in a debate. American is still a very diverse country. For example, would a loud guy like Chris Christie be elected governor in Minnesota? Would soft-spoken guys like Pawlenty or Jindal had any chance of being elected governors in New Jersey or New York? It'd never happen.

[RickyJ]

I listened to the debate, while on the computer, so it was almost like radio. and I thought Biden won.

but my son, who watched it closely, said Ryan won because of Biden's expressions.

just like Kennedy Nixon (which is on line)

If expressions win a debate now then you might as well not have a debate at all. Biden's laughing didn't bother me one bit at all. What is wrong with all these pansies worried about a little laughing during a debate? Biden won by a large margin especially when talking about Iran.

[supermario21]

Because of Mitt Romney's rabid neocon foreign policy, Joe Biden was able to score points as an anti-war politician (which he is not). Big mistake GOP. Going full retard on interventionism is not a smart move.

Agree, Joe Biden was proposing Morganthau 2.0 for God's Sake!

[Peace&Freedom]

Verdict on the battle between Old Man Neocon Biden and Neocon Mini-Me Ryan: A double disqualification. Neither guy deserves to be ruling us. Joe was obnoxious, but to be fair he was just being himself. Ryan robotically wonked the house, but basically said nothing that would connect with regular people.

On foreign policy, the difference between the two seems to be the Dems' heads are buried half way up Israel's posterior, while the GOP guys' heads are all the way up Israel's posterior. On economic matters, it's a wash between Biden's 'I'll overspend 100% in fast motion' versus Ryan's 'I'll overspend 70% in slow motion.'

These are the choices?

[RickyJ]

"You only think Biden won because you want Obama to win. An unbiased person will not see it that way."

I can't stand Obama or Biden. However it isn't hard to see Biden won this debate by a large margin even though I don't like them.

[DeMintConservative]

If expressions win a debate now then you might as well not have a debate at all. Biden's laughing didn't bother me one bit at all. What is wrong with all these pansies worried about a little laughing during a debate?.

Sorry to break this for you, but expressions have mattered since the very first televised debate. Heck, expressions won Kennedy the presidency.

The closest debate to this one I can remember was Al Gore vs Bush - that eventually favored Bush because Gore just looked so arrogant and condescending with all the smirks and eye-rolls.

[MozoVote]

I never liked watching Biden grimacing all the way back to the days of the Anita Hill hearings. Glad I skipped this. Sounds like he was his normal self.

[DeMintConservative]

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/256590052572950528

CNN Politics ‏@CNNPolitics

#CNNUndecideds vote that the #VPdebate was a tie. One-third say Joe Biden won. One-third say Paul Ryan won. One-third are undecided.

[RickyJ]

Did it not bother you when Giuliani was yukking it up at what he probably believed to be Ron Paul's "whoppers"?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?1614-Giuliani-Laughs-at-Habeas-Corpus-amp-Ron-Paul


No, it didn't bother me. Why? Because Ron Paul stood his ground and would not take back what he said. On top of that I knew Ruddy was in on the 9/11 false flag attack so I expected nothing less from him.

[brandon]

On top of that I knew Ruddy was in on the 9/11 false flag attack so I expected nothing less from him. How did you know that? Exactly how many people were in on it?

[DeMintConservative]

CNN Politics ‏@CNNPolitics

BREAKING NEWS: CNN/ORC Post-Debate Poll Results: Who won the debate? Ryan 48% | Biden 44%. (+/-5 MOE) #CNNDebate http://at.cnn.com/Ky2Y0s

RickyJ, maybe you actually thought Biden won in landslide because you're a bit biased. You seem to buy the socialist class warfare and the "Romney is an evil capitalist who made money ruining businesses" nonsense considering your posts other thread and Biden used that kind of emotional appeal effectively tonight.

[AuH20]

I thought it was close. Tough to say who won. Both participants had their moments.

[RickyJ]

RickyJ, maybe you actually thought Biden won in landslide because you're a bit biased. You seem to buy the socialist class warfare and the "Romney is an evil capitalist who made money ruining businesses" nonsense considering your posts other thread and Biden used that kind of emotional appeal effectively tonight.

GTFO! You openly support Romney and got the nerve to call ME biased? Biden won dude, get over it!

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Biden won dude, get over it!

BREAKING: CNN flash poll has Ryan winning 48-44. That's a real poll, not an online one.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

How did you know that? Exactly how many people were in on it?

All I know is it was planned by lizard people in a secret synagogue in the center of the earth.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

GTFO! You openly support Romney and got the nerve to call ME biased? Biden won dude, get over it!

Biden didn't win.

[RickyJ]

Biden didn't win.

Yeah he did.

[AuH20]

GTFO! You openly support Romney and got the nerve to call ME biased? Biden won dude, get over it!

You really don't believe Biden won in a landslide? For one, Biden point-blank lied about the long-term sustainability of Social Security and Medicare. I though Biden had his moments, in particular where he got Ryan good (e.g. citing the letters from Ryan requesting stimulus funds), but you cannot blatantly lie about something that well documented and fact-checked. And for the record, I thought it was a draw.

[NoOneButPaul]

It was basically a waste of 90min... no one won.

Ryan got slammed on foreign policy and Biden got slammed on domestic. They both looked like idiots.

[supermario21]

Biden could have won, but his constant interrupting and arrogant demeanor earned him a few demerits. In a debate which was back and forth and not as clear cut as the Romney/Obama debate round 1, the personality traits factor in a lot more.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Biden is majorly rude. Interrupts and smurks...constantly! Mod goes along with him.

[wgadget]

Well it turns out that Biden was a little more truthful with the facts than Ryan.

[Peace&Freedom]

Biden didn't win.

Tactically, Biden/Team Obama didn't win. But they held, like a team in the lead, in that Ryan/Team Romney didn't get much yardage. So strategically, until Mitt scores some touchdowns, the prevent defense approach of the White House is working.

[AuH20]

Well it turns out that Biden was a little more truthful with the facts than Ryan.

Not on Medicare and S.S. Biden was a lying fool continuously peddling the fiction that benefits cannot be cut going forward and the system will remain solvent.

[wgadget]

I suppose Biden acted so "rudely" because he was exasperated with Wonder Kid's fact stretching.

[JK/SEA]

Biden was more anti-war. Only reason i think he won...yeah, i'm biased about fighting wars for 500 years...so sue me.

[heavenlyboy34]

Sports is more of a waste of time than Politics.

Biden will annihilate Ryan.
LOLZ! Sports is a far better use of time. Hell, you'll get more out of masturbating than out of politics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

[wgadget]

Seriously, the fact that Whiz Kid Mr. Balance the Budget has spent his whole working career voting UP the debt is beyond ironic.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Tactically, Biden/Team Obama didn't win. But they held, like a team in the lead, in that Ryan/Team Romney didn't get much yardage. So strategically, until Mitt scores some touchdowns, the prevent defense approach of the White House is working.

Too late:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?392366-Times-Bay-News-9-Herald-exclusive-Florida-poll-Romney-51-Obama-44

Silver (FiveThirtyEight) now gives Romney a 60% chance of winning Florida, after this poll. What's more, Romney's odds of winning the White House have gone from 15% a week ago to 33% now. Obama needed to stop the bleeding, and Biden went out and acted like an ass for the undecideds who watched to see.

[DeMintConservative]

Proverbs 29:9 When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, The foolish man either rages or laughs…

[AuH20]

Proverbs 29:9 When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, The foolish man either rages or laughs…

I don't know if Ryan is too wise, based on some of his votes. He's more of a quasi conservative.

[Peace&Freedom]

Too late:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?392366-Times-Bay-News-9-Herald-exclusive-Florida-poll-Romney-51-Obama-44

Silver (FiveThirtyEight) now gives Romney a 60% chance of winning Florida, after this poll. What's more, Romney's odds of winning the White House have gone from 15% a week ago to 33% now. Obama needed to stop the bleeding, and Biden went out and acted like an ass for the undecideds who watched to see.

Like I said, the prevent approach gives up some yardage or 'bleeding,' while it runs out the clock. Obama is ahead or trending in most of the battleground states that will decide the election in the electoral college. Romney winning Florida at best gets the GOP back a state it usually counts on to at least be competitive, it doesn't change Mitt's trailing most everywhere else in the battleground areas.

[DeMintConservative]

I don't know if Ryan is too wise, based on some of his votes. He's more of a quasi conservative.He's a legislator with a Burkean understanding of his job. I think representatives like Amash are needed but so are those like Ryan - Amash will never rise to a leadership position and convince the entire caucus to get behind a politically risky entitlement reform program (not judging on its merits and how far it goes).

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I think representatives like Amash are needed but so are those like Ryan - Amash will never rise to a leadership position and convince the entire caucus to get behind a politically risky entitlement reform program (not judging on its merits and how far it goes).

Why is someone (Ryan) who supported TARP/bailouts, Medicare D, NCLB, and the Patriot Act needed?

[devil21]

Seriously, the fact that Whiz Kid Mr. Balance the Budget has spent his whole working career voting UP the debt is beyond ironic.

Looked like the moderator always cut Biden off whenever he started bringing up Ryan's horrible voting record.

[AuH20]

Why is someone (Ryan) who supported TARP/bailouts, Medicare D, NCLB, and the Patriot Act needed?
I think he meant as possible majority leader or whip, where he would be an upgrade on Boehner. As a regular rep, I'm not impressed with his credentials, but he would be a significant upgrade on Boehner.

[jkob]

I don't believe Biden is sincere one bit with his anti-war rhetoric and we know how bad Ryan is domestically. Saying that, Ryan probably came out looking better tonight since Biden came off as such an ass.

[puppetmaster]

He's a legislator with a Burkean understanding of his job. I think representatives like Amash are needed but so are those like Ryan - Amash will never rise to a leadership position and convince the entire caucus to get behind a politically risky entitlement reform program (not judging on its merits and how far it goes). everything that comes out of your mouth is pro Romney/Ryan. .......getting old

[Captain Shays]

TIME’s Michael Scherer: “Not sure debate cameras have been light tested for Biden’s teeth. Best to watch with sunglasses.”

NBC’s David Gregory: “Biden’s smile is out of control.”

BuzzFeed’s Ben Smith: “So did Biden practice laughing at Ryan???”

ABC’s Rick Klein: “Biden on verge of breaking down in laughter when Ryan talks.”

Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza: “Ok. I have decided. I find the Biden smile slightly unsettling”

PBS’ Jeff Greenfield: “Biden has always had a smile that at times is really, really inappropriate.”

The New York Times’ Ashley Parker: “Biden’s grin is Chesire Cat caliber.”

Movie critic Roger Ebert: “Joe! Stop smiling and laughing!”

Washington Post’s Jennifer Rubin: “Biden’s laughing is losing the debate- obnoxious”

Comedy Central’s Indecision: “If this keeps up much longer, Joe Biden’s going to sprain his laugh muscles.”

Thats exactly what I took away from it. Others are posting stuff like that all over my FB page.

Two typical politicians who refuse to answer questions directly but instead go into campaign speeches on every question.

[Captain Shays]

They must not have, because in the one I saw, Biden acted like a fool. Laughing, smirking, interrupting...very unbecoming of the dignity of the office of the Vice President.


You got REPS

[juleswin]

Another meaningless debate I sis not watch. I am tempted to ask how it went but then again what difference does it make. If you are really waiting for the debates to make up your mind then you haven't been paying any attention :)

[RickyJ]

Another meaningless debate I sis not watch. I am tempted to ask how it went but then again what difference does it make. If you are really waiting for the debates to make up your mind then you haven't been paying any attention :)

Debates are just shows, nothing more. It was a decent show, that's about all. Biden did seem to come across as caring more, while Ryan came across as more of a policy wonk with very little real life experience. In essence Biden was more like Romney and Ryan was more like Obama in this debate compared to the first presidential debate.

[Sola_Fide]

I'm thinking Biden won this.

[Sola_Fide]

When Biden said that his Catholic religion's social doctrine gave him the ideas for redistribution of wealth, I thought that was very interesting.

[maqsur]

Just my humble 2 cents: I watched the entire thing. Thought Biden edged out Ryan, but it wasn't lopsided. Definitely Biden had slightly better foreign policy views, but both of them pandered hard vis-a-vis Israel and Iran. Domestically, I felt Biden came out more genuine in his views. Ryan came across as robotic to me, and evaded questions that required specifics beyond the "tax cut across the board, then we'll figure something out to balance it."

Overall, Biden got this one. Will be interesting to hear foreign policy debate between the pres candidates.

[tttppp]

Ryan definetly won this debate. I don't care what the experts say. Ryan was calm, collected, backed up his answers, and appeared like a real leader. Biden was ranting and raving the whole debate and could not keep his composure. He did not look like a real leaders. Leaders can't be losing their cool all the time over minor issues like Biden did. Some idiots might fall for it, but not me.

Right now I would take Ryan for president over Biden, Romney, or Obama based on their debate performances.

[Feeding the Abscess]

When Biden said that his Catholic religion's social doctrine gave him the ideas for redistribution of wealth, I thought that was very interesting.

Tom Woods would find that interesting, too.

[dbill27]

When Biden said that his Catholic religion's social doctrine gave him the ideas for redistribution of wealth, I thought that was very interesting.

he also said that his catholic views made him believe that life begins at conception but that he doesn't want the government to stop abortion.

[devil21]

I'm thinking Biden won this.

Biden's strategy appeared to be painting Romney/Ryan as no different than Obama/Biden and it was mostly effective. First time Ive seen this used in this pres season. Biden came off as a jerk but he needed to be Obama's attack dog. The VP is traditionally considered to be the attack dog of the campaign and Biden was that.

eta: can I say that Biden spoke a little more truth than I expected about foreign policy?

[bunklocoempire]

Originally Posted by NIU Students for Liberty

Why is someone (Ryan) who supported TARP/bailouts, Medicare D, NCLB, and the Patriot Act needed?


I think he meant as possible majority leader or whip, where he would be an upgrade on Boehner. As a regular rep, I'm not impressed with his credentials, but he would be a significant upgrade on Boehner.

I'm trying to find the Ron Paul quote where he points out that many Republicans only act like Republicans when they have to.

Your dog pees on the rug? Sure he's your dog, but it's best to keep him outside if you can't change his behavior.;)

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Carehn:

I wish Alex Jones what the moderator.


I'd pay good money to see that.


With a Bull horn.

[Todd]

It was basically a waste of 90min... no one won.

Ryan got slammed on foreign policy and Biden got slammed on domestic. They both looked like idiots.

This.

Hard for Biden to run away from that record on Domestics. All you need is two facts. Unemployment barely changed and the trillions in debt spending.

[HOLLYWOOD]

When Biden said that his Catholic religion's social doctrine gave him the ideas for redistribution of wealth, I thought that was very interesting.The word catholic lower "c"(derived via Late Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Latin) catholicus, from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal") comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general"

[rprprs]

...
eta: can I say that Biden spoke a little more truth than I expected about foreign policy?
Yes, you can say that. He did, indeed.

What can't be said, however, is that the Obama/Biden administration has any plans for a foreign policy that will actually reflect those truths.

[Sola_Fide]

The word catholic lower "c"(derived via Late Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Latin) catholicus, from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal") comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general"

Yes, but Biden was certainly using the word Catholic in the Roman Catholic sense, not the "universal faith" sense. When he said that Roman Catholicism gave him the foundation for social redistributive action, all I can say is that I certainly agree with him. Roman Catholicism, theologically and historically, has been the impetus for some of the most tyrannical regimes and tyrannical redistribution programs the world has ever known.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Yes, but Biden was certainly using the word Catholic in the Roman Catholic sense, not the "universal faith" sense. When he said that Roman Catholicism gave him the foundation for social redistributive action, all I can say is that I certainly agree with him. Roman Catholicism, theologically and historically, has been the impetus for some of the most tyrannical regimes and tyrannical redistribution programs the world has ever known.

There you go again with your anti-Catholic bullshit.

The Catholic Church has been the most charitable institution in the history of mankind.

[supermario21]

I think Catholicism goes very well with libertarianism. I'm a devout Catholic and a pro-life libertarian like Ron (one of the reasons why I really don't like Johnson). Anyways, I'll never forget a homily the priest at my church gave a few years ago and he described what it really meant to "be Catholic." He described Catholicism not just as a religion, but as a way of life. Charity is the same way, if you can give, give more, and if you can't, go to the Church for help. As the above poster said the Catholic Church is very charitable all over the world. Lastly, and most obviously, loving peace and not going to war unnecessarily is another part of the church's teaching. Being Catholic I see very much as being responsible for yourself and others, which is what an ideal libertarian society values.

[kathy88]

He's a legislator with a Burkean understanding of his job. I think representatives like Amash are needed but so are those like Ryan - Amash will never rise to a leadership position and convince the entire caucus to get behind a politically risky entitlement reform program (not judging on its merits and how far it goes).

You're GOP apologist attitude is underwhelming.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Almost every news network is agreeing that Biden made himself look like a douche


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGxqHI2CMjs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbGG6rtghqY

[JK/SEA]

Almost every news network is agreeing that Biden made himself look like a douche


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGxqHI2CMjs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbGG6rtghqY

these the same guys that laughed at Ron Paul?


this so-called debate is over. Who the fuck cares now anyway.

[maqsur]

If most of the mainstream media is proclaiming something as true, should we take the opposite to be the real outcome?

[JJ2]

I thought Biden totally schooled Ryan on Afghanistan. That stood out to me.

But it's frustrating that we had two candidates debating whether or not we should leave Afghanistan in 2014. I was wishing Ron Paul was up there saying: "We just marched right in, we can just march right on out!"

[JJ2]

BTW, can anyone tell me who was laughing at Ron Paul at 1:59 in this clip? Was that Giuliani? And then it sounds like at least one other person joined in (Romney?).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHLnP8VuoV4

[Sola_Fide]

There you go again with your anti-Catholic bullshit.

The Catholic Church has been the most charitable institution in the history of mankind.

Instead of reacting emotionally, study about this issue:

The Roman Catholic Socialist Agenda
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=288

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Instead of reacting emotionally, study about this issue:

The Roman Catholic Socialist Agenda
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=288

Tell that to Catholic Socialists like Tom Woods, Lew Rockwell, Robert Murphy, and Jeffrey Tucker.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web05/2012/10/11/22/enhanced-buzz-25164-1350009422-4.jpg

[Jumbo Shrimp]

I think Catholicism goes very well with libertarianism. I'm a devout Catholic and a pro-life libertarian like Ron (one of the reasons why I really don't like Johnson). Anyways, I'll never forget a homily the priest at my church gave a few years ago and he described what it really meant to "be Catholic." He described Catholicism not just as a religion, but as a way of life. Charity is the same way, if you can give, give more, and if you can't, go to the Church for help. As the above poster said the Catholic Church is very charitable all over the world. Lastly, and most obviously, loving peace and not going to war unnecessarily is another part of the church's teaching. Being Catholic I see very much as being responsible for yourself and others, which is what an ideal libertarian society values.

+rep

[Sola_Fide]

Tell that to Catholic Socialists like Tom Woods, Lew Rockwell, Robert Murphy, and Jeffrey Tucker.

That doesn't follow logically at all. It could be the case (in fact, it can be easily shown) that Tom Woods' political views are inconsistent with his theology.

Such as:


Society as a whole, acting through public and private institutions, has the moral responsibility to enhance human dignity and parotect human rights. In addition to the clear responsibility of private institutions, government has an essential responsibility in this area ...Human rights are the minimum conditions for life in community. In Catholic teaching, human rights include not only civil and political rights but also economic rights. As [B]Pope John XXIII declared, “all people have a right to life, food, clothing, shelter, rest, medical care, education, and employment.”


That is from your Pope and that is socialism. There is no question about it.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

That doesn't follow logically at all. It could be the case (in fact, it can be easily shown) that Tom Woods' political views are inconsistent with his theology.

Tell that to Tom and he'll destroy any argument you have to back up your preposterous assumption.



That is from your Pope and that is socialism. There is no question about it.

The Pope's personal opinion does not make it Catholic doctrine.

[Sola_Fide]

Tell that to Tom and he'll destroy any argument you have to back up your preposterous assumption.



The Pope's personal opinion does not make it Catholic doctrine.

If Tom were here, I would ask him what he thought about things...like this:


Pope Paul VI in a section of his encyclical entitled, “Toward an Effective World Authority,’’ proclaimed,

This international collaboration on a worldwide scale requires institutions that will prepare, coordinate, and direct it until finally there is established an order of justice which is universally recognized….[13]

This so flies in the face of private property and freedom I don't know where to begin...

[Jumbo Shrimp]

If Tom were here, I would ask him what he thought about things...like this:



This so flies in the face of private property and freedom I don't know where to begin...

Again, a Pope's personal opinion does not make it Catholic doctrine. Tom would tell you that.

Anyway, stop hijacking this (and many other) threads with your anti-Catholic (well anti-anything-that's-not-calvinism) vitriol. It's against forum guidelines:


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[Jumbo Shrimp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVg4-zYiaqk

[Sola_Fide]

Again, a Pope's personal opinion does not make it Catholic doctrine. Tom would tell you that.

Anyway, stop hijacking this (and many other) threads with your anti-Catholic (well anti-anything-that's-not-calvinism) vitriol. It's against forum guidelines:

I would be happy to continue this conversation in the religion section. Do you deny that the Catholic Church has an official social teaching?

[Jumbo Shrimp]

I would be happy to continue this conversation in the religion section. Do you deny that the Catholic Church has an official social teaching?

Of course Catholicism has a social teaching, but it is not socialist like you seem to think (or intentionally lie about).

[Sola_Fide]

Of course Catholicism has a social teaching, but it is not socialist like you seem to think (or intentionally lie about).

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


Further, the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares,

It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. The common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on the international level.[12]

Are you denying that this statement is socialistic?

[Pisces]

If Tom were here, I would ask him what he thought about things...like this:



This so flies in the face of private property and freedom I don't know where to begin...

Since Tom isn't here, why don't you try reading one of his two books on the subject of Catholicism:

http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/0895260387/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350170459&sr=1-10&keywords=tom+woods

http://www.amazon.com/Church-Market-Catholic-Defense-Economics/dp/0739110365/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350170459&sr=1-12&keywords=tom+woods

[Jumbo Shrimp]

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Are you denying that this statement is socialistic?

What about that is socialist? That part says nothing about the state or about redistribution of wealth or anything like that.

I like how you conveniently skipped over this:


2431 The responsibility of the state. "Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society."

Oh and the Church saying profits are good and necessary isn't very socialist:


2432 Those responsible for business enterprises are responsible to society for the economic and ecological effects of their operations. They have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of profits. Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a business and they guarantee employment.

[Sola_Fide]

2431 The responsibility of the state. "Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society."

What does that mean?

[Sola_Fide]

What about that is socialist? That part says nothing about the state or about redistribution of wealth or anything like that:



It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. The common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on the international level.[12]

Do you believe the "common good" of "society" requires an "organization of society at the international level"?

A statement like this is opposed to freedom. No freedom loving person could endorse a statement like that.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Do you believe the "common good" of "society" requires an "organization of society at the international level"?

A statement like this is opposed to freedom. No freedom loving person could endorse a statement like that.

The Church is an "organization of society at the international level"...so is the Red Cross, so are countless other charities and NGO's and organizations which link together NGO's...

How is it opposed to freedom?

[Jumbo Shrimp]

What does that mean?

Probably dealing with slavery, coercion, theft, fraud, etc.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Sola_Fide, if you want to start a thread on this go ahead, we should stop derailing this one.

I'll just say two last things:

1) Using the CCC to argue a point about Catholic doctrine isn't a very goo starting point. The CCC holds no authority in the Church, is not an infallible document, and is pretty much just a study guide

2) Arguing about the about whether what the some people in the Church say on economic matter is inconsequential as the Magisterium has no competence in matter outside of the Faith and morality. Economics is a secular matter.

Tom Woods summed this second point up well:


One hesitates to describe Catholic social teaching as an abuse of papal and ecclesiastical power, but surely the attempt to impose, as moral doctrine binding the entire Catholic world, principles that derive from the popes' intrinsically fallible reasoning within a secular discipline like economics, seems dubious. At the very least, it appears to constitute an indefensible extension of the prerogatives of the Church's legitimate teaching office into areas in which it possesses no inherent competence or divine protection from error.

Here are some writings by Tom I suggest you read:

Capitalism and Catholicism (http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods37.html)
Catholic Social Teaching and the Market Economy Revisited: A Reply to Thomas Storck (http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods127.html)
Economics As Science - A Catholic Defense of the Free Market (http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/woods/03525.html)
Morality and Economic Law: Toward a Reconciliation (http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods25.html)

[Sola_Fide]

The Church is an "organization of society at the international level"...so is the Red Cross, so are countless other charities and NGO's and organizations which link together NGO's...

How is it opposed to freedom?


It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. The common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on the international level.[12]

This statement is NOT talking about the church, it is talking about the state. Furthermore, it is promoting global government. No freedom-loving person could endorse this statement that comes out of the Catholic Catechism.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

This statement is NOT talking about the church, it is talking about the state. Furthermore, it is promoting global government. No freedom-loving person could endorse this statement that comes out of the Catholic Catechism.

I like how you're quoting from the section called "IN BRIEF" which is just a list of bullet points of what is said before. In the actual articles in the "PARTICIPATION IN SOCIAL LIFE" section it makes absolutely no mention of the state having that responsibility or calling for an international state or actor.

And anyway, as I said before using the CCC to argue your points about Catholic doctrine is like me using your posts on here as a definitive source of Calvinist doctrines. The CCC is not an infallible document.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

I'm not a Catholic(for too many reasons to list) or Calvinist(predestination is wrong), I'm more of a modern protestant so this is an interesting discussion.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

I'm not a Catholic(for too many reasons to list) or Calvinist(predestination is wrong), I'm more of a modern protestant so this is an interesting discussion.

Predestination is right, but free will exists.

[BlackJack]

Turd Sandwich v. Giant Douche

LMFAO!!! Exactly.

[Sola_Fide]

Predestination is right, but free will exists.

Could you expand on that? Because as it stands, it is completely contradictory.

[Sola_Fide]

I like how you're quoting from the section called "IN BRIEF" which is just a list of bullet points of what is said before. In the actual articles in the "PARTICIPATION IN SOCIAL LIFE" section it makes absolutely no mention of the state having that responsibility or calling for an international state or actor.

And anyway, as I said before using the CCC to argue your points about Catholic doctrine is like me using your posts on here as a definitive source of Calvinist doctrines. The CCC is not an infallible document.


Are Vatican II documents representative of your theology?



if one is in extreme necessity he has the right to procure for himself what he needs out of the riches of others...Therefore, because private property is immoral, all men—individuals and governments—have the moral obligation to redistribute goods held unjustly by property owners.

-Gaudium et Spes

This is...just beyond horrible. It's so completely anti-Christian its hard to put into words...

[Sola_Fide]

Pope Pius XI:


Under fascism, property owners may keep their property titles and deeds, but the use of their property is, as Leo XIII wrote, “common”. Fascism is a form of socialism that retains the forms and trappings of capitalism, but not its substance. Under fascism, property titles and deeds are intact, but the institution of private property has disappeared. Government regulations and mandates have replaced it. For this distinction between legal ownership and actual use, the fascists owe a debt to the Roman Church-State.


John Paul II:


...the goods of this world are originally meant for all. The right to private property is valid and necessary, but it does not nullify the value of this principle. Private property, in fact, is under a ‘social mortgage’, which means that it has an intrinsically social function, based upon and justified precisely by the principle of the universal destination of goods. iv




In the same document, Pope John Paul also wrote that in today’s world “we are faced with a serious problem of unequal distribution of the means of subsistence originally meant for everybody”.

[osan]

I thought it was close. Tough to say who won. Both participants had their moments.

Seemed like a solid push to me. They both sucked, just in different ways. I dislike Ryan less than Biden, but I would not want to go drinking and wenching with him.

[osan]

Proverbs 29:9 When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, The foolish man either rages or laughs…


I don't know if Ryan is too wise, based on some of his votes. He's more of a quasi conservative.

I believe that here we may comfortable call it "relatively wise". Make sense??

[RickyJ]

I don't know if Ryan is too wise, based on some of his votes. He's more of a quasi conservative.

Based on his lies about Iran being close to having a nuclear weapon, there is nothing wise about him!

[osan]

The Pope's personal opinion does not make it Catholic doctrine.

The pope issues bulls. Bulls are defacto doctrine. Hello.