Would donating to C4L be a waste?

[Freespeech468]

I feel the need to DO something, Everything happening so fast lately I hate just sitting around while Our Constitution is being torn to shreds! I want to donate to C4L but what will C4L do with these funds? am I just wasting money donating? will these donations actually contribute to progressing Liberty in the USA? :confused:

[JK/SEA]

Find a candidate in your State that has a freedom agenda similar to Ron Paul. Send them money. Support them.

[tsai3904]

Check out Young Americans for Liberty at www.yaliberty.org

Read the first couple posts to see an organization in action.

[Dick Chaney]

Campaign for Liberty has been infiltrated by establishment Rebloodlicans in my own honest opinion, so I personally have zero plans to give them any more money, ever. I would do as JK/SEA says, and just donate directly to liberty candidates.

[hueylong]

C4L is NOT infiltrated. In fact, Jesse Benton has moved on to work for McConnell. I know in Louisiana, C4L will be working on a number liberty-related state level initiatives.

[Dick Chaney]

C4L is NOT infiltrated. In fact, Jesse Benton has moved on to work for McConnell. I know in Louisiana, C4L will be working on a number liberty-related state level initiatives.

Agree to disagree, their president has a habit of dodging independent media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zwbYYOzDZk

[erowe1]

No, it wouldn't be a waste. It's up to you.

With my own money, there are other places that I would prioritize above CFL, such as the Independent Institute (http://independent.org/). But if somebody sees CFL as the most worthy or the best at what they specifically do, then I couldn't begrudge that.

[sailingaway]

They need money. Personally I'd like to know more about the direction, but I support it since Ron is back as Honorary Chairman. Ron will be speaking at an University in Utah on the 18th and someone needs to keep getting money to fund that. I'm all for that, and for fighting to audit the fed, etc. Right now, C4L and Ron's Liberty Pac are the best bets, I see, beyond individual donations to candidates such as Amash, Andy Sanborn, Bills, Kerry, Hightower etc. He has asked for money for liberty pac to give to liberty candidates, but he also sent a cover letter over a John Tate email to ask for money for C4L, which apparently needs money.

[TCE]

The answer to this question is another question. What are the goals of your donation? What do you hope to accomplish?

[NoOneButPaul]

Campaign for Liberty has been infiltrated by establishment Rebloodlicans in my own honest opinion, so I personally have zero plans to give them any more money, ever. I would do as JK/SEA says, and just donate directly to liberty candidates.

Isn't Ron Paul the new chairman?

[sailingaway]

Isn't Ron Paul the new chairman?

He's back as honorary chair, but it remains to be seen exactly what that means. On the other hand, he IS speaking at a university this month and we don't have much time to gear up ads to put pressure on people to try to get the fed audit bill through the Senate, so I personally will support them and later question them if they don't live up to hopes.

But I agree with others who aren't interested if this ends up being generic conservative issue lobbying instead of a liberty/Ron Paul issue group. But I'm not going to just assume it will be that. It has done good things in the past.

[LibertyEagle]

Agree to disagree, their president has a habit of dodging independent media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zwbYYOzDZk

Don't EVEN. We Are Change have been such slimeballs that they now have a horrible reputation with anyone decent. No one in their right mind would agree to be interviewed by them.

[LibertyEagle]

You may want to consider donating to a great liberty candidate. They need funds too and after all, one of our big objectives is to get good people in office so that they can help turn this crap around that is going on in our government.

As far as C4L goes, I have donated to them in the past and I will do it again.

[sailingaway]

Agree to disagree, their president has a habit of dodging independent media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zwbYYOzDZk

there is independent media and then there is ambush media, the pieces I've seen by that group, which may not be representative, have been of the ambush variety. No one wants that.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Donate to RAND PAC.

https://secure.randpac.com/

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Frankly, I find it very inept that they cannot upload the LPAC speeches we all want to see.

WTF is with uploading them "over the next few weeks"?

Upload them in a few hours, geez.

I would donate to somebody else until they get their act together. Such as Ron's PAC, Rand's PAC, YAL, etc.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I got a mailing from them and had mixed feelings about it.

First off, it said Paul was back as "honorary" chairman. That generally means a plastic figurehead that has noting to do with the day to day operation of the organization. Kind of a turn off.

Second, while still 6 pages - Tate didn't endlessly repeat himself this time. I liked that! Instead he was concise in identifying a number of liberty candidates that need support now to win in Nov. Secondly, he identified 4 or 5 very important bills that are expected to be pushed through in the lame duck session that are really bad news that they want to fight against. He mentioned two other project areas but failed to provide any info on them. I'm just not sure donating to CFL would be the most effective way to support those candidates or fight those issues.

Third, he complained about mailing costs, yet sent a large envelope with 6 double sided pieces of paper in them. To add insult to injury, the 6th page of his letter had his signature printed in blue, - obviously offset, meaning that one side of one sheet had to go through the press twice driving up printing costs. What hypocrisy!

Forth, He provided no details of HOW CFL would use any donated funds, other than to work on what projects.

Fifth, and a major turn off! he asked that we "vote", but voting meant donating. The categories were: $3,000, $2,000, $1,000 and "other amount". Are you F'n serious?

Sixth, I really haven't seen much from the national organization, but was very put off by their recent announcement that only national leadership would be allowed to blog any more (they don't care what the rank and file thinks). MEGA turn off! We also found during this last cycle that many chapters had gone dormant when we tried to contact them.

Now our local state chapters do send out e-mails that I find useful. I don't know about the national organization. Their hiring of telemarketers rather than volunteering supporters for these tasks has been a turn off. Likewise the regular stream of direct mail. It doesn't seem like a good way to use funds.

So IDK...

-t

[cjm]

Didn't we just have two other major threads recently that weighed the pros and cons of C4L?

[GeorgiaAvenger]

I'll link to the alternatives that seem to be more in touch. C4L, and the RLC(Republican Liberty Caucus) for that matter need to show WHAT they plan to do and show progress on that goal before asking for donations.

Young Americans For Liberty (http://www.yaliberty.org/)

YAL actually seems to have a strategy going, and is growing across college campuses spreading the message to young people. They also have a PAC, and are up to speed on which candidates to support. I'd rate this as the top choice for donating, but that's just me.

Liberty PAC (http://www.libertypac.com/)

Up and running again, Ron has just come out with a list of endorsements and this focuses on electing liberty candidates.

RAND PAC (http://www.randpac.com/)

Pretty new...works on getting liberty candidates elected. Right now targeting Senators who voted for foreign aid. Also, I believe Rand was running his hemp education fund out of this pac.

FreedomWorks (http://www.freedomworks.org/)

I am not recommending this solely based on the candidates it supports...it has helped some of our candidates as well as more standard tea party candidates that some might not like. But when they get behind a candidate, they give full effort. Bentivolio is currently receiving major help in terms of phone banking, signs, and mailers. However, this group has a lot of influence and has some Ron Paul people/libertarians in high places in the organization. It is mainstream and is inserting pro-liberty ideas(such as auditing and reforming the Fed) into the Republican party.

[LibertyEagle]

Guys, C4L was all but shutdown during Ron's campaign. And more than a couple of them are now in different positions and not returning. Think about Bierfeldt, Howard, Benton, and who knows who else? There weren't that many of them to begin with. So, give them a frickin' break and let them catch their breath and regroup. YAL didn't have all but one of their staff working for Ron's campaign. C4L DID.

And Tangent, it's a new website. The old one was hacked together, including all the user blogs. Give them a chance.

Oh, and it is my opinion that no RP supporter in their right mind would support FreedomWorks over C4L.

[sailingaway]

tangent, Ron is still a sitting congressman. I don't think he can be more than honorary while that is the case. but I agree I'd support them more, the more Ron Paulian they are.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Is there any chance that YAL and C4L could merge, maybe with YAL becoming their youth group? It seems like a bit of a waste to have both, even if they were merge but operated semi-autonomously it would be better to pool resources.

[sailingaway]

Is there any chance that YAL and C4L could merge, maybe with YAL becoming their youth group? It seems like a bit of a waste to have both, even if they were merge but operated semi-autonomously it would be better to pool resources.

No they can't, and really shouldn't, imho. They appeal to different people. YAL is literally a college group with chapters started by students in college. C4L is an issue organization for all. I can belong to C4L, but I can only donate to YAL.

[ninepointfive]

Get involved or donate locally - otherwise devise a cool new internet based education or video campaign.

do not donate to YAL or C4L.

Your money will go much further if you are more responsible for it.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

No they can't, and really shouldn't, imho. They appeal to different people. YAL is literally a college group with chapters started by students in college. C4L is an issue organization for all. I can belong to C4L, but I can only donate to YAL.

Is there a reason they can't?

[sailingaway]

Is there a reason they can't?

I think it is more autonomy, one is run by a recently student, who is targeting and training students, and John Tate is running C4L more standard issue. I wouldn't mind Frazee running C4L, but YAL is doing tremendously well appealing to students who might not be as interested in social political groups with a wider spectrum. They target school schedule and campus organizing in ways kids do and adults with structured lives do not.

With YAL I wouldn't want to mess with what seems to work. I am a bit more open, personally, on C4L, but I am hoping it will be Ron's 'carry the flame' organization when he is out of Congress, personally. I don't know that there is legal reason they can't work together, but I think since students are running YAL, they wanted to protect C4L which was more closely tied to Ron, in case boundaries were blurred, originally.

[Peace&Freedom]

there is independent media and then there is ambush media, the pieces I've seen by that group, which may not be representative, have been of the ambush variety. No one wants that.

Depends. There is 'ambush' media in the form of mindless rude stunts, and then there is 'ambush' media in the form of aggressive political theater, that confronts establishment politicians who are normally protected (from real questions) in a spin-free, non-corporate controlled manner. I have seen the latter by such groups at their best, and it is heroic, and we do need more of it.

[sailingaway]

Depends. There is 'ambush' media in the form of mindless rude stunts, and then there is 'ambush' media in the form of aggressive political theater, that confronts establishment politicians who are normally protected (from real questions) in a spin-free, non-corporate controlled manner. I have seen the latter by such groups at their best, and it is heroic, and we do need more of it.

I'm speaking from the point of view of the target, not wanting it, not being surprising.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I think it is more autonomy, one is run by a recently student, who is targeting and training students, and John Tate is running C4L more standard issue. I wouldn't mind Frazee running C4L, but YAL is doing tremendously well appealing to students who might not be as interested in social political groups with a wider spectrum. They target school schedule and campus organizing in ways kids do and adults with structured lives do not.

With YAL I wouldn't want to mess with what seems to work. I am a bit more open, personally, on C4L, but I am hoping it will be Ron's 'carry the flame' organization when he is out of Congress, personally. I don't know that there is legal reason they can't work together, but I think since students are running YAL, they wanted to protect C4L which was more closely tied to Ron, in case boundaries were blurred, originally.

I'm pretty sure it's non-profit tax status. One supports candidates, the other is totally issue oriented. Different beasts in the the eyes of the IRS and FEC.

-t

[Keith and stuff]

I feel the need to DO something, Everything happening so fast lately I hate just sitting around while Our Constitution is being torn to shreds! I want to donate to C4L but what will C4L do with these funds? am I just wasting money donating? will these donations actually contribute to progressing Liberty in the USA? :confused:

It isn't a waste of money. However, if you want to make a difference for liberty in the world, your best bang for buck is donating to really good liberty candidates in New Hampshire. No surprise here, I have a list for you :)

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?385401-Huge-list-of-New-Hampshire-2012-pro-liberty-candidates-and-recommendations&p=4673275&viewfull=1#post4673275
Great NH State Senate candidates who aren't in safe districts that could really use your support:
Republican Andy Sanborn, Senate District 9 (Cheshire County: Dublin, Fitzwilliam, Jaffrey, Richmond, Troy; Hillsborough County: Bedford, Greenfield, Hancock, Lyndeborough, Mont Vernon, New Boston, Peterborough, Sharon, Temple) http://andysanborn.com/
Republican John Reagan, Senate District 17 (Merrimack County: Allenstown, Chichester, Epsom, Loudon, Pembroke, Pittsfield; Rockingham County: Deerfield, Northwood, Nottingham, Raymond; Strafford County: Strafford) http://www.johnreagannhsenate.org/
Republican Phil Greazzo, Senate District 20 (Manchester Wards 3, 4, 10, 11 & Goffstown) http://www.philgreazzo.com

Great NH State House candidates who aren't in safe districts that could really use your support:
Republican Norman Tregenza, Carroll 7 (Albany, Bartlett, Chatham, Conway, Eaton, Freedom, Hale’s Location, Hart’s Location, Jackson, Madison, Tamworth) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Tregenza
Republican Anne Cartwright, Cheshire 2 (Alstead, Marlow, Surry) http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/house/members/member.aspx?member=376915
Republican Paul Mirski, Grafton 10 (Enfield) http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/house/members/member.aspx?member=376035
Republican J. Michael Ball, Hillsborough 9 (Manchester Ward 2) http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/house/members/member.aspx?member=376902
Republican Tammy Simmons, Hillsborough 17 (Manchester Ward 10) http://campaignmail.chipin.com/re-elect-tammy-simmons
Republican George Lambert, Hillsborough 44 (Litchfield, Manchester Wards 8 & 9) http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/house/members/member.aspx?member=376962
Republican Jennifer Coffey, Merrimack 1 (Andover, Danbury, Salisbury) http://www.jenncoffey.com
Republican Brandon D. Ross, Merrimack 20 (Chichester, Pembroke) http://www.livefreeordiealliance.org/ElectionCentral/NHHouseCandidate.aspx?cs=/Ross/Brandon/D/Merrimack/H20/
Republican G. Brian Seaworth, Merrimack 20 (Chichester, Pembroke) http://www.brianseaworth.org/
Republican J.R. Hoell, Merrimack 23 (Bow, Dunbarton) http://www.jrhoell.com/
Republican Laura Jones, Strafford 24 (Rochester Wards 4 & 5) http://jones4staterep.com/

[LopTarDaBoo]

I typed a big 'ole reply, but it boils down to this:

Donations to Liberty Candidates > Donations to C4L > Doing Nothing

[TCE]

I typed a big 'ole reply, but it boils down to this:

Donations to Liberty Candidates > Donations to C4L > Doing Nothing

+Rep. Essentially. Most people on this forum have an attachment to at least one liberty candidate and would like to personally see them accumulate more cash. If this doesn't apply to you, OP, then C4L is not a bad choice.

[Keith and stuff]

No they can't, and really shouldn't, imho. They appeal to different people. YAL is literally a college group with chapters started by students in college. C4L is an issue organization for all. I can belong to C4L, but I can only donate to YAL.

Anyone may belong to YAL, even you :) http://www.yaliberty.org/user/register?destination=user

[AuH2O]

As a professional marketer and fundraiser (with no connection to CFL), I'm going to address two of your points.



Third, he complained about mailing costs, yet sent a large envelope with 6 double sided pieces of paper in them. To add insult to injury, the 6th page of his letter had his signature printed in blue, - obviously offset, meaning that one side of one sheet had to go through the press twice driving up printing costs. What hypocrisy!

You can print two colors simultaneously on a single run. Plus, I imagine there was blue on the first page in the letterhead? First and final pages are likely printed one-up on a 11x17 sheet, and slit. This is common practice in production of letters. There's only the tiniest addition of cost for the second ink, but there isn't a second press run.

The larger envelope is less likely to be trashed and more likely to be opened. So when you spend a few extra cents per piece to get, say 20% more letters read, you've actually made a sound investment. Likewise with the length -- if a six page letter generates twice as many gifts as a four page letter, then you've increased your ROI. Methinks you're being pennywise and pound foolish.


Likewise the regular stream of direct mail. It doesn't seem like a good way to use funds.

If it wasn't raising more money than it costs ... do you think they'd keep doing it?

[sailingaway]

Anyone may belong to YAL, even you :) http://www.yaliberty.org/user/register?destination=user

LOL!

OK, I was wrong. They usually only ask me for money, though.

[aclove]

As a professional marketer and fundraiser (with no connection to CFL), I'm going to address two of your points.



You can print two colors simultaneously on a single run. Plus, I imagine there was blue on the first page in the letterhead? First and final pages are likely printed one-up on a 11x17 sheet, and slit. This is common practice in production of letters. There's only the tiniest addition of cost for the second ink, but there isn't a second press run.

The larger envelope is less likely to be trashed and more likely to be opened. So when you spend a few extra cents per piece to get, say 20% more letters read, you've actually made a sound investment. Likewise with the length -- if a six page letter generates twice as many gifts as a four page letter, then you've increased your ROI. Methinks you're being pennywise and pound foolish.



If it wasn't raising more money than it costs ... do you think they'd keep doing it?

+rep

Most of the complaints from forum members about C4L's fundraising practices stem from the complainers not being familiar with the ins and outs of direct-mail fundraising. Everything is done the way it is done for a reason, and usually that reason is that these techniques have been proven to work. It's not surprising, though, that tried-and-true ways of raising money and organizing don't resonate emotionally with a group of people whose instincts are toward the inconoclastic. What they don't understand is that these fundraising letters are being received by a much, much larger group of people than the regulars to this forum, and are resulting in a large influx of money. Otherwise, C4L wouldn't have been able to dominate CPAC in 2010 and 2011, providing not only money for tables, housing for volunteers, and promotional materials, but also helping defray the ticket costs for attendees who voted for Ron Paul in the CPAC straw polls (he won in 2010 and 2011, the years C4L participated in CPAC).

[FSP-Rebel]

What they don't understand is that these fundraising letters are being received by a much, much larger group of people than the regulars to this forum, and are resulting in a large influx of money. Otherwise, C4L wouldn't have been able to dominate CPAC in 2010 and 2011, providing not only money for tables, housing for volunteers, and promotional materials, but also helping defray the ticket costs for attendees who voted for Ron Paul in the CPAC straw polls (he won in 2010 and 2011, the years C4L participated in CPAC).
And the super vast majority of Paul supporters outside of here aren't exposed to the negativity that some here like to bestow on C4L, they're just happy to help Ron keep plugging along. That said, I do have priorities in focusing my donations toward winnable candidates during election seasons and whatever is leftover that I'm willing to spare can go to C4L or YAL. Outside of the obvious issue oriented tasks that C4L engages in at the top level which it then passes down to the grassroots at the state level, they do have a great track record in showing up the establishment at CPAC and such.

[ClydeCoulter]

Dontating to anything before you getting your house in order is a travesty.