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phill4paul
10-08-2012, 04:16 PM
Remember Brandon Raub? This would apply to him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/us/with-military-suicides-rising-new-policies-take-shape.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


With nearly half of all suicides in the military having been committed with privately owned firearms, the Pentagon and Congress are moving to establish policies intended to separate at-risk service members from their personal weapons.

The issue is a thorny one for the Pentagon. Gun rights advocates and many service members fiercely oppose any policies that could be construed as limiting the private ownership of firearms.

But as suicides continue to rise this year, senior Defense Department officials are developing a suicide prevention campaign that will encourage friends and families of potentially suicidal service members to safely store or voluntarily remove personal firearms from their homes.

“This is not about authoritarian regulation,” said Dr. Jonathan Woodson, the assistant secretary of defense for health affairs. “It is about the spouse understanding warning signs and, if there are firearms in the home, responsibly separating the individual at risk from the firearm.”

Dr. Woodson, who declined to provide details, said the campaign would also include measures to encourage service members, their friends and their relatives to remove possibly dangerous prescription drugs from the homes of potentially suicidal troops.

In another step considered significant by suicide-prevention advocates, Congress appears poised to enact legislation that would allow military mental health counselors and commanders to talk to troops about their private firearms. The measure, which is being promoted by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, would amend a law enacted last year that prohibited the Defense Department from collecting information from service members about lawfully owned firearms kept at home.

The 2011 measure, which was part of the Defense Authorization Act and passed at the urging of the National Rifle Association, was viewed by many military officials as preventing commanders and counselors from discussing gun safety with potentially suicidal troops. But the N.R.A. said that the provision was a response to efforts by Army commanders to maintain records of all the firearms owned by their soldiers.

The new amendment, part of the defense authorization bill for 2013 that has been passed by the House of Representatives but not by the Senate, would allow mental health professionals and commanders to ask service members about their personal firearms if they have “reasonable grounds” to believe the person is at “high risk” of committing suicide or harming others.

“We’re O.K. with the commanding officer being able to inquire,” said Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the N.R.A., “but they can’t confiscate.”

(Which is why I support G.O.A. and not the NRA. phill4paul)

Senator James M. Inhofe, an Oklahoma Republican who sponsored the original 2011 restrictions, said he would support the new amendment “if it clears up any confusion.”

“This is a national tragedy that Congress, all branches of D.O.D. and numerous outside organizations have been working together to solve,” Mr. Inhofe said in a statement. The Senate is not expected to take the bill until after Election Day.

Suicides in the military rose sharply from 2005 to 2009, reaching 285 active-duty service members and 24 reservists in 2009. As the services expanded suicide prevention programs, the numbers leveled off somewhat in 2010 and 2011.

But this year, the numbers are on track to outpace the 2009 figures, with about 270 active-duty service members, half of them from the Army, having killed themselves as of last month.

According to Defense Department statistics, more than 6 of 10 military suicides are by firearms, with nearly half involving privately owned guns. In the civilian population, guns are also the most common method of suicide among young males, though at a somewhat lower rate.

When active-duty troops who live on bases or are deployed are identified as potentially suicidal, commanders typically take away their military firearms. But commanders do not have that authority with private firearms kept off base. Instead, commanders would often urge potentially suicidal troops to give their guns to friends or relatives or have them stored on base.

Military health care professionals said the 2011 law inhibited those kinds of conversations. “It ties the hands of clinicians and the command,” said Dr. Stephen Xenakis, a psychiatrist and retired brigadier general who recommends amending the 2011 law.

Some military mental health specialists say the government should do much more than just amend the 2011 law. Dr. Elspeth Cameron Ritchie, a psychiatrist, retired colonel and former mental health adviser to the Army surgeon general, said the Pentagon should aggressively promote gun safety as well as consider making it harder for at-risk troops to buy ammunition and weapons at on-base gun stores.

“I am troubled that on the one hand we are saying we are doing all we can to decrease suicide and on the other making it so easy for service members to buy weapons,” Dr. Ritchie said.

Many military officials say the Pentagon is not prepared to go that far. But some suicide experts do see a greater willingness on the part of senior Pentagon officials to discuss the links between firearms and suicide.

They note that several prominent retired officers, including Peter W. Chiarelli, a former Army vice chief of staff, have begun speaking publicly about the issue. And they note that the military has begun taking small steps to encourage gun safety, including giving away trigger locks at a recent Pentagon health fair.

“You’ve got to realize the cultural change when trigger locks are given out in the Pentagon,” said Bruce Shahbaz, an Army suicide prevention expert. “That’s huge.”

( Not unexpected, Boyo. Not unexpected. phill4paul)

In the Department of Veterans Affairs, mental health counselors and suicide hot line agents routinely encourage suicidal veterans to store their guns or give them to relatives. But the issue remains difficult, with concerns that some veterans avoid mental health care because they fear their firearms will be confiscated.

“It is sensitive,” said Jan Kemp, the department’s national suicide prevention coordinator. “We don’t in any way want to imply that we would want to take people’s right to bear firearms away.”

(That is exactly what the implication is "Jan you ignorant slut." phill4paul)

Dr.3D
10-08-2012, 04:31 PM
So if one of these "at risk" servicemen ever wants to commit suicide, all he has to do is pick up the phone, call the cops and tell them there is a dangerous person in his apartment and then when the cops show up, present himself to the cops with a butter knife in his hand.

Edit:
He should also make sure his dog is with one of his friends or family members at the time.

In other words, what they are doing is stupid and possibly make make the "at risk" serviceman even more "at risk", since he will figure he can't even be trusted with his own firearms.

phill4paul
10-08-2012, 04:40 PM
So if one of these "at risk" servicemen ever wants to commit suicide, all he has to do is pick up the phone, call the cops and tell them there is a dangerous person in his apartment and then when the cops show up, present himself to the cops with a butter knife in his hand.

Edit:
He should also make sure his dog is with one of his friends or family members at the time.

In other words, what they are doing is stupid and possibly make make the "at risk" serviceman even more "at risk", since he will figure he can't even be trusted with his own firearms.

That about sums it up. Dr.3D. I see this as a slippery slope. It'll start this way. Then they'll say that all returning service members aren't allowed firearms as they will be under observation for 6 months. Then a year. Then......

Acala
10-08-2012, 04:40 PM
Well, that should solve the problem.

tod evans
10-08-2012, 04:43 PM
Military and mental health in one sentence is bad enough but to throw in gun confiscation.....:eek:

Dr.3D
10-08-2012, 04:46 PM
That about sums it up. Dr.3D. I see this as a slippery slope. It'll start this way. Then they'll say that all returning service members aren't allowed firearms as they will be under observation for 6 months. Then a year. Then......
You are absolutely correct. The powers that be, are very afraid of ex-service members. They are worried those people will fight back when the SHTF and the government gets heavy handed with the population at large, and thus they would really like to disarm all of them before that happens.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
10-08-2012, 04:48 PM
“This is not about authoritarian regulation,”


haha. That was the first fucking clue, wasn't it?

better-dead-than-fed
10-08-2012, 04:50 PM
As one who's been on the wrong end of a psychiatrist more times than I'd like to remember, I see grave potential for abuse of the proposed law. Psychiatrists are cops who don't even have to pretend you did anything wrong before they bust you.

ClydeCoulter
10-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Are they gonna require padlocks on the under counter doors to keep poisons away from the too?
As always, treat the symptom instead of the problem, like bringing the troops home and out of those situations that broought them to that place.

phill4paul
10-08-2012, 04:52 PM
haha. That was the first fucking clue, wasn't it?

That's what tipped me off. ;)

better-dead-than-fed
10-08-2012, 04:58 PM
You are absolutely correct. The powers that be, are very afraid of ex-service members. They are worried those people will fight back when the SHTF and the government gets heavy handed with the population at large, and thus they would really like to disarm all of them before that happens.

Read the section about psychiatrist Barry Morenz to see how peaceful disappproval of government-misconduct is construed as a thought-crime:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C5HH1FIvvbmht2OdOIIu1qWif3VZFhk4Z5XMztzZy-c/edit

VBRonPaulFan
10-08-2012, 05:02 PM
so instead of reducing the war that causes these regular men and women to snap and go psychotic, they're instead going to restrict their right to bear arms while arbitrarily rendering judgement on their mental health. nice.

FrancisMarion
10-08-2012, 05:04 PM
Well, that should solve the problem.

of young men and women enlisting.

dannno
10-08-2012, 05:53 PM
So if one of these "at risk" servicemen ever wants to commit suicide, all he has to do is pick up the phone, call the cops and tell them there is a dangerous person in his apartment and then when the cops show up, present himself to the cops with a butter knife in his hand.

Edit:
He should also make sure his dog is with one of his friends or family members at the time.

Or an automatic selector.

Dr.3D
10-08-2012, 06:04 PM
Or an automatic selector.

Anymore, I suspect having just about anything in your hand when confronted by the police is dangerous.

coastie
10-08-2012, 06:05 PM
Anymore, I suspect having just about anything in your hand when confronted by the police is dangerous.

Yep-even only having one hand and one leg and sitting in a wheelchair can get you killed.

Pericles
10-08-2012, 07:11 PM
Or go to COSCO with a cell phone in your hand ...

Join the Army and lose your gun rights - OK, just keep pushing.

AGRP
10-08-2012, 07:19 PM
Gotta love how they dont care if they endanger themselves or others when theyre deployed.

Philhelm
10-09-2012, 07:33 AM
Gotta love how they dont care if they endanger themselves or others when theyre deployed.

A soldier's duty isn't to endanger himself, but to make sure the poor bastard on the other side gets endangered.

sailingaway
10-09-2012, 07:34 AM
join the army, lose your second amendment rights? There's a recruiting point.

specsaregood
10-09-2012, 07:49 AM
So if one of these "at risk" servicemen ever wants to commit suicide, all he has to do is pick up the phone, call the cops and tell them there is a dangerous person in his apartment and then when the cops show up, present himself to the cops with a butter knife in his hand.

Edit:
He should also make sure his dog is with one of his friends or family members at the time.


Pity the poor at-risk serviceman that also happens to be a "furry".

Pericles
10-09-2012, 10:59 AM
join the army, lose your second amendment rights? There's a recruiting point.

It is for the right side, anyway. :)

HOLLYWOOD
10-09-2012, 11:06 AM
Way to look as this is the usual...

what effects .000000001% of America/people, now enforced upon 100% of the nation.

This leads to TPTB declaring anybody they wish for any reason, in taking away Rights & Liberties. It's another notch in absolute power. We all know history of what happens with absolute power.