Greater Kurdistan, a goal of the current upheaval in Syria?

[Brian4Liberty]

In the US, the Kurdish issue is rarely discussed, which is interesting in itself considering current events. We do discuss the turmoil in Syria, the war in Iraq, and the need to neutralize Iran. What other common denominator exists other than upheaval and danger in these states? Perhaps the creation of a Greater Kurdistan is one of the (many) goals of these seemingly unrelated issues.

The outline of a Greater Kurdistan varies. A smaller version:

http://www.goeringo.com/wp-content/uploads/kurdistan.gif

The larger version:

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2011/8/turkey3317b.jpg


We now have what is called the autonomous "Kurdistan Region" in what was formerly Iraq. If the Kurdish area of Syria can be made autonomous, could it be joined with the "Kurdistan Region" of Iraq? And once that is done, how could the Kurdish regions of Iran be carved out and also joined into a Greater Kurdistan? If all of the above was accomplished, the most difficult question would remain: what about Turkey? Is being a NATO ally enough to save Turkey from the cutting board of global nation rearranging? Perhaps someone can ask US politicians who are experts on nation-destroying and nation-building.

And by shear coincidence, three members of our Congress recently visited the Kurdistan Region, three members who also have a keen interest in global reorganizing. Perhaps they would know all of the nuances of the Greater Kurdistan issue? The underlying assumption is that Kurdistan would be very friendly to western culture and business, similar to how the Kurdistan Region of Iraq currently operates. But what would be the cost in money, blood and destruction?



ERBIL, Kurdistan Region – In a meeting with a delegation of U.S. senators who visited Erbil last week, Kurdistan Region Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani said that adherence to the constitution is “the only way to resolve Iraq’s political disputes.”

Republication senator John McCain, senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and senator Lindsey Graham arrived in Erbil on Wednesday to meet with Kurdistan Region’s top officials.

http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurds/5177.html

[Brian4Liberty]

News from Kurdistan (Syria, Turkey and Iraq):


...
Here, the PKK [Kurdistan Workers Party] is widely lauded as the vanguard of Kurdish nationalism, a movement that has unsettled countries in the area for decades. In recent months, the de facto "liberation" of Syrian Kurdish communities like Afrin has ranked among the most unanticipated[?] and broadly significant outcomes of the Syrian rebellion.

Newly established Kurdish control here presents a quandary for Syria's Sunni Arab-led rebel movement, which has a tense relationship with the Kurds, and for whatever government emerges should Syrian President Bashar Assad fall. It also has troubled Turkey, which this week fired artillery into Syria after apparently errant cross-border shelling killed Turkish villagers. Turkey, a regional power and NATO member, appears to have few good options.
...
Kurdish aspirations for more autonomy, or outright independence, have long perturbed Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

Officially, Syria has more than 2 million Kurds, about 10% of the national population. Kurdish activists claim the real number approaches 20%.
...
Once Syria's rebellion erupted in March 2011, Assad's administration generally sought to placate the Kurds, part of a broader effort to present the government as a defender of minorities. Still, many Kurds blamed the government for the assassination last year of a celebrated Kurdish pro-democracy activist, Mashaal Tammo.

Kurdish officials say they sympathize with efforts to overthrow Assad. But wariness abounds about Arab nationalism in general, and what many here view as the increasingly Islamist face of the Syrian rebellion. Kurds, like most Syrians, are predominantly Sunni Muslims, but Kurdish activists here say their region has a strong secular tradition.
...
Checkpoints manned by Kurdish militiamen line the roads and deny access to rebel forces. Kurdish "self defense" units have been receiving basic military training in Iraq's quasi-autonomous Kurdistan.
...
Kurdish leaders view Assad's fall as a matter of time, and they are preparing for what they view as an inevitable violent scramble for power among various Sunni Arab factions, all hostile to Kurdish self-governing aspirations.

"We will not hesitate to defend the rights of the Kurdish people," says Abdo, the PYD coordinator here. "The arming of the Kurdish people is a fact, in every Kurdish village. We will defend ourselves."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-kurds-20121006,0,7524012.story


Now what are the odds that the three amigos (McCain, Lieberman, and Graham) have ever discussed exporting weapons to Kurdish interests?

[ZenBowman]

Why not? Kurds deserve their own state, Balkanization is a good thing, many smaller states instead of one megastate sounds good to me.

[Pericles]

One of the consequences of artificial borders.

[Brian4Liberty]

Why not? Kurds deserve their own state, Balkanization is a good thing, many smaller states instead of one megastate sounds good to me.

Why should nations be based on ethnic (or racial, religious, etc.) groupings? And how much bloodshed and destruction wiil it cost to create these new, pure nations?

Size of States is a separate issue. Smaller and open is probably preferable in a general sense. A bunch of North Koreas (closed and totalitarian) is not desirable though.

[Brian4Liberty]

Mitt Romney vows to arm the Kurds

For those who can read between the lines on this one, the Kurds "share American values" more than any other opposition group in Syria. They tend to be secular, business friendly and less extreme. Many of the other factions that are fighting Assad are openly hostile to western culture.


LEXINGTON, Va. (AP) — Mitt Romney declared on Monday the U.S. must join other nations in helping arm Syrian rebels to oust Syrian President Bashar Assad, casting President Barack Obama's efforts as weak and part of a broader lack of leadership in the Middle East and around the globe.

Hoping to bolster his own foreign policy credentials, the Republican presidential challenger said he would identify and organize those in the Syrian opposition who share American values, then work with American allies to "ensure they obtain the arms they need to defeat Assad's tanks, helicopters and fighter jets."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/08/mitt-romney-arm-syrian-rebels

[ZenBowman]

Why should nations be based on ethnic (or racial, religious, etc.) groupings? And how much bloodshed and destruction wiil it cost to create these new, pure nations?

If people living in a region want independence, they should have it.

Or do you believe in the divine right of governments to rule over people who do not want to be ruled by them?

[Brian4Liberty]

If people living in a region want independence, they should have it.

Sure. But I don't want my nation, or my money being used one way or another. And if I give my opinion at all on what these other people do, I would recommend against violence, bloodshed, destruction and ethnic cleansing.


Or do you believe in the divine right of governments to rule over people who do not want to be ruled by them?

:rolleyes:

[Brian4Liberty]

Kurdistan: the "Second Israel" ( http://townhall.com/columnists/cliffmay/2010/05/27/kurdistan_the_second_israel/page/full/)



...
Kurds have not forgotten that, in 1991, Americans established a "no-fly zone" over Iraq's Switzerland-sized Kurdish region, to provide them some protection from Saddam's predations. They regard America's 2003 military intervention in Iraq as their liberation. Iraqi Kurds now enjoy substantial self-rule. Kurds living as minorities in Syria, Iran and Turkey do not.
...
Many Kurds also have empathy for -- and even feel an affinity with -- Israelis and Jews. Unusual as this is within the "Muslim world," it makes sense when you think about it: Like Kurds, Jews are an ancient Middle Eastern people. Like Kurds, Jews have been targeted for genocide. Like Kurds, Israelis face an uncertain future among neighbors who range from merely hostile to openly exterminationist.
...
A Kurdish driver, discovering that he and I both speak Russian, launches into a lively conversation that begins with praise for America. He soon tells me there is one other country he'd like to visit: Israel. Why? Because Israelis, like Kurds, have been persecuted yet have managed to survive, achieve and prosper.

A Kurdish journalist says that Iran's Islamist rulers cannot be trusted, noting that they recently executed 5 Kurds "because they were Kurds." He adds that Iran "supports Hezbollah. And we know what Hezbollah does to Israel."
...
He notes that Israel is one of the few functioning democracies in the region and that Kurds, too, are attempting to build durable democratic institutions both in their homeland and in the rest of Iraq. Kurdistan, Bakir adds, is sometimes called "the second Israel."

Historically, Jews are not strangers in this land. They settled here as early as the eighth century B.C. In pre-Islamic times, some Kurdish royalty is believed to have converted to Judaism. Even today, such prominent families as the Barzanis have Jewish members.

Of course, Jews once lived throughout the broader Middle East, from Morocco to Afghanistan. However, after World War II and the founding of the state of Israel, Arab governments turned on their Jewish minorities. As recently as the 1940s, Jews constituted as much as a third of Baghdad's population. By the early 1950s, almost all had been expelled, their properties confiscated. The Iraqi government forced Kurdish Jews into exile as well. Many went to Israel where they harbored an understandable resentment toward Iraqi Arabs - but not toward Iraqi Kurds. In the 1960s and 70s, Israelis provided assistance to Kurdish rebels.
...
Kurds say that, in their land, they are committed to tolerance - and they use the word not in the literal sense of abiding those who are distasteful, but in the American sense of respecting minority rights and valuing diversity.

This is not a common perspective in the modern "Muslim world." But Kurdistan is unique in many ways. Here it is recalled that Saddam Hussein not only had Weapons of Mass Destruction -- he used them. Here the arrival of Americans troops did cause people to dance in the streets. Here, it is possible to imagine Middle Eastern Muslims, Jews and Christians living in peace, improbable as that has come to seem.

http://townhall.com/columnists/cliffmay/2010/05/27/kurdistan_the_second_israel/page/full/

[pcosmar]

Cross posted,,


knowing is half the battle.

Interesting connection.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/07-Jews-As-Nation/section-5.html


The Khazars were a Turkic tribe that migrated to the steppes of what
is today southern Russia and eastern Ukraine by the 5th century. They
established a powerful kingdom that existed from the mid-7th century
until the early-11th century. The Khazars had a two-king system,
consisting of a military king (bek) and a sacral king (khaqan). The
Khazar army, which took orders from the bek and the military commander
(tarkhan), included tens of thousands of professional soldiers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Chasaren.jpg/738px-Chasaren.jpg

Wow,, (but not unexpected) Interesting map.

[Brian4Liberty]

"Let's make lots of money"

From 2008:



July 29, 2008

Top NeoCon Richard Perle Seeks Oil Deal With Iraqi Kurds

Richard Perle has almost always gone along with the Bush administration’s policies.

But now the longtime neoconservative policy wonk is trying to get in on an oil-drilling deal with Iraqi Kurds despite the administration’s public opposition to such deals there.

Perle, one of the most influential proponents of 2003 invasion of Iraq, is in talks to join a consortium of investors with the Kurdish Regional Government, today’s Wall Street Journal reports.

The Bush administration has publicly discouraged energy firms from making unilateral deals with Iraqi Kurds until after Iraq’s federal government in Baghdad agrees to a law for sharing future revenues. Disagreements over oil money have inflamed sectarian tensions in Iraq and undermined political unity.

But investigators are looking into whether the Bush administration privately gave the go-ahead to energy firms seeking the lucrative deals with the Kurds.

The Journal reports that Perle is talking with a Turkish firm, AK Group International, and also a representative from the government of Kazakhstan. They are targeting the co-called “K18 concession” which is near the city of Erbil and is estimated to hold 150 million or more barrels of oil.
...
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/top_neocon_richard_perle_seek.php


AK Group International

Our mission is to:

Provide consulting services for American, Turkish and Israeli companies in the energy, defense, construction, health, banking and financial sectors.
http://www.akgroup.com.tr/

Today:


Oil Rises 3.4% on Middle Eastern Tensions

NEW YORK--Crude-oil prices rose Tuesday afternoon as traders overlooked forecasts of economic weakness and focused on burgeoning tensions in the Middle East.

Light sweet crude for November delivery on the New York Mercantile Exchange jumped $3.06, or 3.4%, to $92.39 a barrel. Brent oil futures were $2.49, or 2.2%, higher at $114.31 a barrel.

Anxiety about the Middle East centered on several possible scenarios, fueling talk that oil prices could soar above $ 100 a barrel if tensions continue to worsen.

"The whole [Middle Eastern] region is a mess right now," said Phil Flynn, an analyst with the Price Futures Group in Chicago. "There's a lot of fear in the market place."

Rising tension between Syria and Turkey has generated speculation that 400,000 barrels a day of oil shipped to Turkey from Iraq's northern Kurdistan region could be at risk in a border skirmish. Also on the market's mind: the possibility that Iran could support Syria against Turkey in such a dispute, market participants said.
...
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/oil-up-on-fears-syria-turkey-fight-risks-iraq-oil-20121009-01029#.UHWk0FGAcrc

[Brian4Liberty]

Tonight's debate could be interesting. Biden would have a lot to say about Syria and the Middle East, if he chooses to talk about it.

http://dfr.krg.org/grafik/ImageThumb.aspx?size=700&Image=/grafik/uploaded/2009/president_Krp_Biden__2009_09_17_h21m47s50__SB.jpg

http://www.al-monitor.com/files/live/sites/almonitor/files/contributed/jnt_news_rising-star-of-the-middle-east-m/RTR2UPK5.jpg
U.S. Vice President Joe Biden (R) meets with Kurdish Regional Government President Massoud Barzani in Erbil

What a tangled web...doesn't fit well into the US media's desire to put everything into simple black/white terms.


Barzani Skillfully Marches Towards Kurdish Independence

Things have changed drastically for the Kurds of Northern Iraq. Massoud Barzani, President of the Kurdistan Regional Government, is being welcomed into the White House. In Turkey, he is pampered rather than being labeled a bandit.
...
...despite all of the pressures of Ankara, he declared that he would not be part of a fight against other Kurds, including the Kurdistan Workers Party [PKK]. However, by not taking up arms against the PKK, he was able to mediate in secret talks between Turkey and the militants. He went on to develop trade ties with Turkey, which led to the opening of a Turkish consulate in Erbil.

It is not a secret that although such talks have been severed since then, indirect communication with the militants is still done via Iraqi Kurds. Barzani also pays attention to his relations with Turkey’s Kurdish Peace and Democracy Party [BDP], and BDP parliamentarians are frequently his guests. With the onset of the Syrian crisis, Iraqi Kurds have become even more important. Ankara’s grandest expectation today is for Barzani to persuade the Syrian Kurds into joining the Syrian National Council [SNC]. Barzani is taking his usual balanced and prudent approach to the issue.

Recently he convened in Erbil with all of the Syrian Kurdish groups, with the exception of the PYD, an extension of Turkish PKK, but he resisted Ankara’s urges and advised the Syrian Kurds to keep their cards to their chests instead of joining the Sunni-dominated SNC. He also will not allow confrontation between these groups and the PYD.

Thinking ahead in macro terms, Barzani has already indicated that he is jockeying for the role of national Kurdish leader. Just as it is with Ankara, his relationship with Nouri al-Maliki’s Shiite government in Baghdad is poor.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/culture/2012/04/rising-star-of-the-middle-east-m.html

[Smart3]

Cross posted,,



Interesting connection.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/07-Jews-As-Nation/section-5.html



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Chasaren.jpg/738px-Chasaren.jpg

Wow,, (but not unexpected) Interesting map.

Why bring up the Khazars? You're not one of those idiots who think modern Jews are mostly Khazar, as opposed to mostly Levantine?

___

On the issue of an independent Kurdistan - I strongly support this concept, as well as independent Assyrian and Lur states. This is not a matter of redrawing the map, it is a matter of RESTORING the map. There is no reason to bring back an independent Republic of Hatay... but there is great arguments for Kurdistan, Assyria and Luristan.

[Brian4Liberty]

Why bring up the Khazars? You're not one of those idiots who think modern Jews are mostly Khazar, as opposed to mostly Levantine?


Well, you seem to portray yourself as the expert on every separatist movement on the planet, maybe you can explain who all these groups are?

How about the following article? He has some theories. What is he talking about?


Kurdish people believe that Jewish people are part of the Kurdish nation. Kurds always have been treating Jews as equal partner In Kurdistan since the Median Empire. It is may be because Abraham the forefather of Jewish nation was an Indo-Europeans Kurd instead of African Semite like the Jewish scholars have been claiming after Moses came back from Egypt. Or large segment of Kurdish populations are the descendent of lost ten Jews tribe in Kurdistan after they were deported by Assyrian Empire to Kurdistan.

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2010/8/state4135.htm

As far as I'm concerned, humans run all around the planet, and have been for tens of thousands of years. The desire to break up into ethnic or racial enclaves is not productive, and usually (in and of itself, or as an emotional issue to be utilized by manipulators) the end result is war, death and destruction. People are people. A lot of people have opinions and theories about the past, and the truth is probably somewhere mixed up in between.

As far as Khazars, it's another group that has been in and around the area. Who is to say who is what after thousands of years of migrations and mixing?

Certainly history is interesting as an area of study, but to apply that to modern day is nothing but a prescription for bad things.