Your Right to Resell Your Own Stuff Could Become Illegal

[sailingaway]

http://libertycrier.com/government/your-right-to-resell-your-own-stuff-could-become-illegal/
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-right-to-resell-your-own-stuff-is-in-peril-2012-10-04

[acptulsa]

'Could become'?

Should I click the link and see if the author admits that it's already illegal to sell any toys made before 1985? Or anything you bake in your non-federally-inspected kitchen? Or your antique ivory heirloom? Or your grandmother's cheetah skin pillow? Or any of a couple dozen other things besides just what I can think of off of the top of my head?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

*Cough* IP. You don't own shit, you rent. You think you have the right to take the profits of these companies? Pssshaw.

[Origanalist]

It never stops, it_just_keeps_coming. Control, control, control.

[daviddee]

...

[opal]

and there go garage sales...

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Sadly, for a large amount of enterprise computer hardware it has been this way for a very, very long time. Especially in the storage arena...

You spend 100's of thousands (or more) on a SAN and you can not legally sell it with the operating system or licenses. The new buyer must re-buy it all + plus a support contract from EMC, NetApp, etc. SAN (fibre) switches are the same way... Again, 100's of thousands of dollars and you never truly own them, as ownership implies the ability to sell it.

This is no different than buying a car and the manufacturer later states, "Well, that computer, and software, were for the original purchaser."

Or "owning" land only to receive a yearly tax bill.

True ownership is a rare thing in this world... for anything over $10K in value.

You're on the right track. Artificial rents are heinous, a true scourge to property rights and liberty.

[daviddee]

...

[PaulConventionWV]

Try getting a mundane to understand this...

I once had a conversation with a group of average dipshits... At the end of the conversation they were patting themselves on the back and highfiving... thinking they had won the intellectual debate.

Topic? Ownership of property.

If you don't pay your property taxes, then who owns your land?
If you don't follow "the rules", then who owns your body/freedom?
If you don't pay your extortion, then who owns your money?
If you truly own your body, then you can sell me a kidney... correct?


Blah blah.

As I said above, true ownership of anything above $10K in value is very, very hard to find.

We are all share croppers, making purchases at the company store, and believing what has been handed down for generations... lies.

So if I bought a house for less than 10k (Yes, it's possible), would that mean I actually own it and don't pay any taxes?

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Try getting a mundane to understand this...

I once had a conversation with a group of average dipshits...


Once? Once???? You must live in a very intelligent area or have a wonderful ability to avoid dipshits. I commend you.

[Dr.3D]

I can see a growing black market in used merchandise coming our way.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

I am an auctioneer and appraiser and I also do a LOT of private sales. This is how I feed my family and it is also the only career that has ever made me actually happy and not fret getting up in the morning. If these idiots pass this.. What now? Goodbye auction houses, goodbye antique shops, antique malls, antique shows, yard sales, flea markets, collector conventions, ebay, craigslist, facebook trader pages, used car lots, pawn shops and on and on and on. My profession has already suffered from intense government idiocy in the past few years and now it looks like they are intent on shutting it down totally.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

Here is another story on it: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-right-to-resell-your-own-stuff-is-in-peril-2012-10-04

[torchbearer]

software producers have been doing this shit for awhile.
you don't own anything anymore... apparently, the most you can hope for in life is to lease a license with conditions. the merican dream.

[DamianTV]

This is the difference between Civil Law and Contract Law. The Contracts that these software giants are trying to use are trying to supercede Civil Law. Once a Contract has completed, the Contract can not further exceed the scope of the contract. You bought a banana from me. We make a contract that in exchange for the banana, I get something I want in exchange. Once that exchange has completed, the contract has been fulfilled.

What they are trying to do is to direct more and more money towards those at the top by requiring that any sale of shit they make goes directly to them instead of indirectly. Its basically a means to get people to buy shit they dont need, and to keep your neighbor from making any money off shit they bought. Im sure that will also help the economy. What is really sad is that if corporations have to resort to this as a business tactic just to stay in business, then our economy is in much worse shape than we thought.

[jmdrake]

software producers have been doing this shit for awhile.
you don't own anything anymore... apparently, the most you can hope for in life is to lease a license with conditions. the merican dream.

Well software has always been a strange animal because of the ease of reproduction. While that's true now for everything (books, movies, music etc) it's always been that way for software. I recall an incident in academy that illustrates this. All of our computers were Trash-80s which used 360K 5 1/4 inch floppies. One kid (we'll call nerd # 1) had bought a copy of the "SuperDOS" operating system with some cool (well cool for Trash-80) games. He "sold" another kid (nerd # 2) a copy of "SuperDOS" with some of the games, but later "stole" the other games. One day nerd # 2 left his floppy in the lab and some other kids "stole" (copied) everything and it got passed around the entire school. Well nerd # 2 found out about it, and got mad. He told the men's dean "So and so stole my computer software". Of course he had his initial copy and the games he "stole". I'm not sure how it all washed out. I do know everybody was told they had to erase the disks with the "stolen" software, but I think nerd # 2 was able to keep at least the games he "bought". I think nerd # 2 was even allowed to keep the games he "stole" himself. But nobody (except me) even asked the question "Did nerd # 1 have the authority to make and sell an unauthorized copy of his software? And if he can make copies and sell them without getting in trouble, then why should someone else be able to make copies of what he or nerd # 2 had lying around in the computer lab and distribute those copies for free?"

[cindy25]

and there go garage sales...


wrong-the garage sale will thrive, as it will be easier to sell at a garage sale. a correct response would be there goes e-bay

[cindy25]

this is already done in many countries , examples the UK with books sold for less than their cover price; in Japan with used ink cartridges ; and in the USA with ketchup bottles

[undergroundrr]

The next step in IP tyranny. Oct. 29, the supreme court hears a case whose decision may lead to the requirement to get permission before you sell your copyrighted books, CD's, electronics, sculptures, etc. -

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-right-to-resell-your-own-stuff-is-in-peril-2012-10-04?pagenumber=1

[Lindsey]

Yard Sales, Flea Markets, Estate Sales, Auctions, Ebay, Amazon, Craigslist are just some of the businesses that would all be affected. It would be might short-sighted if they ruled that you have to have permission for resale of these items - they represent a lot of commerce. Not to mention, how in the world would you enforce it?

[ninepointfive]

If this passes, it's better in the long run because it's going to wake up the sleeping giant a lot sooner than later.

Just think how mainstream garage sales are.

[jbauer]

Way to much money for everyone re-selling things for this to stand. Heck the book maker should have sold the copies for the same price in each country. The guy in the story found an opportunity and took advantage of it. Good for him!!!

[MikeStanart]

Craigslist: Gone
Ebay: Gone
Used Car Businesses: Gone
Pawn Shops: Gone
Storage Auctions: Gone
Used Book Businesses: Gone
Salvation Army: Gone
Goodwill: Gone


This list is probably a LOT longer.

[jmdrake]

Way to much money for everyone re-selling things for this to stand. Heck the book maker should have sold the copies for the same price in each country. The guy in the story found an opportunity and took advantage of it. Good for him!!!

You don't understand. Globalism is only allowed when it works for big corporations. If individuals find ways to make globalism actually work for consumers it's baaaaad and must be stopped at all cost. Medicare part D exists because someone found they could buy drugs cheaper in Canada and then bring them into the U.S. In the future expect books to have GPS devices that will cause them to self destruct if they are brought into the wrong region.

[ninepointfive]

Craigslist: Gone
Ebay: Gone
Used Car Businesses: Gone
Pawn Shops: Gone
Storage Auctions: Gone
Used Book Businesses: Gone
Salvation Army: Gone
Goodwill: Gone


This list is probably a LOT longer.

much longer.

1. How will this be enforced?
2. Will it be enforced?

[jbauer]

You don't understand. Globalism is only allowed when it works for big corporations. If individuals find ways to make globalism actually work for consumers it's baaaaad and must be stopped at all cost. Medicare part D exists because someone found they could buy drugs cheaper in Canada and then bring them into the U.S. In the future expect books to have GPS devices that will cause them to self destruct if they are brought into the wrong region.

So you don't think there is big business in the resale of stuff? There is way way way to much money out there at stake for companies such as ebay, paypal, amazon, goodwill etc. This isn't going any where.

[Philhelm]

much longer.

1. How will this be enforced?
2. Will it be enforced?

1. Selectively, and by no-knock night raids conducted by masked men with machineguns.
2. Selectively.

[The Gold Standard]

If this passes, it's better in the long run because it's going to wake up the sleeping giant a lot sooner than later.

Just think how mainstream garage sales are.

I think they are getting bolder because they see the sheep bickering back and forth about Romney and Obama. They realize that they already have the masses as dumbed down as they need them.

[QuickZ06]

Pretty sure some places have even banned garage sales. And this just adds to list of, wtf is our country becoming.....

[Dr.3D]

So what does one do with an old car they would have sold to somebody else? I suppose you could give it away and then the other person you gave it to could give you a gift of some money.

Edit: Now that I think about this, it would seem there wouldn't be any tax on something given to another person, so those making such a law would be helping people not pay taxes when trading things like this. After all, if you can't sell it, and you have to give it away, it was a gift. This means the next person who registers the car doesn't have to pay the extra tax on it, because he didn't pay anything for it.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Sadly, for a large amount of enterprise computer hardware it has been this way for a very, very long time. Especially in the storage arena...

You spend 100's of thousands (or more) on a SAN and you can not legally sell it with the operating system or licenses. The new buyer must re-buy it all + plus a support contract from EMC, NetApp, etc. SAN (fibre) switches are the same way... Again, 100's of thousands of dollars and you never truly own them, as ownership implies the ability to sell it.

This is no different than buying a car and the manufacturer later states, "Well, that computer, and software, were for the original purchaser."

Or "owning" land only to receive a yearly tax bill.

True ownership is a rare thing in this world... for anything over $10K in value.I think there's a conflict of interest that has to do with our screwed-up tax laws too. the purchaser(business owner) can write-off the entire cost of their purchase over the 3-4 years-whatever, yet the consumer who uses it for home use, etc, can't write-off the costs. Yet another control by corrupt corporate government

[TonySutton]

Is the reason these text books are marked up so high in the US vs other countries because it is so easy to get college loans in the US?

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

Pretty sure some places have even banned garage sales. And this just adds to list of, wtf is our country becoming.....

My town outlawed them.

[awake]

Through government all stupid things are possible.

[QuickZ06]

My town outlawed them.

Yikes!

[jmdrake]

So you don't think there is big business in the resale of stuff? There is way way way to much money out there at stake for companies such as ebay, paypal, amazon, goodwill etc. This isn't going any where.

I think if there's a way to help the ebays, paypals and amazons of the world while screwing over people like the enterprising man in the OP the government will think of a way to do it.

[jmdrake]

Through government all stupid things are possible.

My thoughts exactly.

[devil21]

Craigslist: Gone
Ebay: Gone
Used Car Businesses: Gone
Pawn Shops: Gone
Storage Auctions: Gone
Used Book Businesses: Gone
Salvation Army: Gone
Goodwill: Gone


This list is probably a LOT longer.

Bye bye Storage Wars on A&E, one of the most popular cable tv shows. I fully expect that the local or state gov'ts will usurp the contents of abandoned storage lockers from the storage companies at some point.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

Bye bye Storage Wars on A&E, one of the most popular cable tv shows. I fully expect that the local or state gov'ts will usurp the contents of abandoned storage lockers from the storage companies at some point.

The death of those ridiculous shows might be the only positive out of this.

[Lucille]

My town outlawed them.

Why do they hate the poor? Seriously. Did anyone put up a fight over it?

[The Free Hornet]

If this passes, it's better in the long run because it's going to wake up the sleeping giant a lot sooner than later.

Just think how mainstream garage sales are.

Possibly. The other reality is that if you can't resell a DVD/CD/Blu-ray then the its value decreases. Perhaps big media hopes they profit enough between the time the law passes to when its effects are manifest in sales.

As is typical, these laws affect the law-abiding and not the anti-government-IP crowd. Even regular people may soon wonder why they should buy something they cannot resell. If they don't know how to get something online at zero cost, they likely "know somebody who knows somebody". I was made aware of a sneaker-net opportunity to get 800 GB (gigabytes) of music because I have neither the time nor storage capacity for that much audio booty (nor do I need $60 billion in copyright fines).

The IP fascists that oppose the 'first-sale doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine)'* will only hurt their own industry to the benefit of lawyers, government, prison industry, and the various "associations" that pretend to represent their interests.


* If someone had IP protected by mutually-agreed upon contracts and not government force, then I could care less about the restrictions as both parties approved it. These people seek to continually change the rules after getting billions of dollars for a product.

[Luciconsort]

Why do they hate the poor? Seriously. Did anyone put up a fight over it?

I'm from the same town he is and they did it so fast that no one hardly noticed. in this town the only ppl that attend the meetings are the people trying to get these dumbass laws passed. if you miss the meeting it's a month before you can read the minutes on the website, by then it's too late. some of the stuff they try to pull here is insane, but no one is there to stand up.

[Lucille]

I'm from the same town he is and they did it so fast that no one hardly noticed. in this town the only ppl that attend the meetings are the people trying to get these dumbass laws passed. if you miss the meeting it's a month before you can read the minutes on the website, by then it's too late. some of the stuff they try to pull here is insane, but no one is there to stand up.

But it can be repealed. Please tell me those evil clowns aren't going to be reelected, and that they're opponents are making it an issue.

[DamianTV]

People respond to incentives. Period.

Put something on sale at a supermarket, a few more people will buy that something. Those that dont have any interest in a product will be less inclined to respond to the incentive to buy that product. Think Tampax Sale advertisement to a Single Male. Not that I see a huge market for reselling tampons, but thats different than purchasing something you know can be resold. The point was there is an Incentive to buy something, and people respond. It depends on who would be interested the product or service to begin with, so not everyone responds to the same incentives.

Piracy is also all about incentives. The ability to acquire something by theft because it is cheaper than paying for it is an incentive. The thing is that prohibiting the resale of that product is an incentive to steal it. I mentioned Tampons as not having much resale value, but that isnt entirely true. Consumable goods like food, tampons, and toilet paper arent going to have much value once they've been reused, but buying apples in bulk, then reselling them to local supermarkets is just as much reselling as anything else. Music doesnt go bad once a person has listened to it. Movies dont either. And to try to make music go bad by some sort of "pay once per listen" is just further incentive to steal the music.

What bothers me is that this is going to start extending itself into other aspects of our culture. Monsanto has a case going to the Supreme Court right now where a farmer is being sued for a violation of that "License Agreement" by reseeding his fields with seeds collected from the last harvest of crops. They want money from you each and every time. What if it wasnt Seeds or Music? What if it was Cars or Houses? If the industry had their way, every single thing that a person purchased could only be purchased from the original manufacturer in order to bolster their profits. What if used car sales were completely prohibited? You want a new car, but had to destroy your old one to get it? Can you say WASTE? I knew you could! Wait, dont people trade in their old cars as a down payment on new cars? Yep, so now people can less afford to buy new cars.

If the industry does get thier wish, I can guarantee it will not end well for us.

[devil21]

The death of those ridiculous shows might be the only positive out of this.

They are funny in how they "value" things but they're popular and based on a real practice.

[liberty2897]

Sorry if this is a re-post. I didn't see it in the threads I usually look at.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-right-to-resell-your-own-stuff-is-in-peril-2012-10-04


CHICAGO (MarketWatch) — Tucked into the U.S. Supreme Court’s agenda this fall is a little-known case that could upend your ability to resell everything from your grandmother’s antique furniture to your iPhone 4.

At issue in Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons is the first-sale doctrine in copyright law, which allows you to buy and then sell things like electronics, books, artwork and furniture, as well as CDs and DVDs, without getting permission from the copyright holder of those products.

Enlarge Image
A Supreme Court case could limit the resale of goods made overseas but sold in America.
Under the doctrine, which the Supreme Court has recognized since 1908, you can resell your stuff without worry because the copyright holder only had control over the first sale.

Put simply, though Apple Inc. AAPL -0.36% has the copyright on the iPhone and Mark Owen has it on the book “No Easy Day,” you can still sell your copies to whomever you please whenever you want without retribution.

That’s being challenged now for products that are made abroad, and if the Supreme Court upholds an appellate court ruling, it would mean that the copyright holders of anything you own that has been made in China, Japan or Europe, for example, would have to give you permission to sell it.

“It means that it’s harder for consumers to buy used products and harder for them to sell them,” said Jonathan Band, an adjunct professor at Georgetown University Law Center, who filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the American Library Association, the Association of College and Research Libraries and the Association for Research Libraries. “This has huge consumer impact on all consumer groups.”

Another likely result is that it would hit you financially because the copyright holder would now want a piece of that sale.

It could be your personal electronic devices or the family jewels that have been passed down from your great-grandparents who immigrated from Spain. It could be a book that was written by an American writer but printed and bound overseas, or an Italian painter’s artwork.

There are implications for a variety of wide-ranging U.S. entities, including libraries, musicians, museums and even resale juggernauts eBay Inc. EBAY -3.55% and Craigslist. U.S. libraries, for example, carry some 200 million books from foreign publishers.

“It would be absurd to say anything manufactured abroad can’t be bought or sold here,” said Marvin Ammori, a First Amendment lawyer and Schwartz Fellow at the New American Foundation who specializes in technology issues.

The case stems from Supap Kirtsaeng’s college experience. A native of Thailand, Kirtsaeng came to America in 1997 to study at Cornell University. When he discovered that his textbooks, produced by Wiley, were substantially cheaper to buy in Thailand than they were in Ithaca, N.Y., he rallied his Thai relatives to buy the books and ship them to him in the United States.

He then sold them on eBay, making upward of $1.2 million, according to court documents.

Wiley, which admitted that it charged less for books sold abroad than it did in the United States, sued him for copyright infringement. Kirtsaeng countered with the first-sale doctrine.

[VIDEODROME]

It seems like the most he should have a problem with is Customs.


This also reminds me of the early days of DVD when people wanted a foreign film but then learned our players were Regionally locked.

[Dr.3D]

It seems like the most he should have a problem with is Customs.


This also reminds me of the early days of DVD when people wanted a foreign film but then learned our players were Regionally locked.
Then DIVX came along and took care of the problem. :D

[cindy25]

if passed it will be ignored