When Does Time Tracking at Work Go Too Far?

[DamianTV]

http://slashdot.org/story/12/09/16/1213226/ask-slashdot-when-does-time-tracking-at-work-go-too-far


"I work in a call center, full time, for a large mail order pharmacy. Recently, as part of their campaign to better track time spent both at and away from our desks, they have started tracking bathroom breaks. They use a Cisco phone system, and there is now a clock out option that says 'Bathroom.' My question is whether or not this is in any way acceptable in a large corporate environment (Around 800 people work at this same pharmacy) and is it even legal? How invasive would this really be considered, and beyond privacy concerns, how are they going to deal with the humiliation that their employees feel as a result of this? Has this happened to any of you?"

[Anti Federalist]

There will be plenty of people that come into this thread that will tell you that while at work, nothing is too far, if your employer tells you to stand on your head in the corner and jerk off, well, tough shit, do it, or find another job.

And when every employer does it, they'll say, tough shit, starve. (Which, based on your posts, it sounds like you are close to doing.)

I'm not going to get into all that, since it takes away from what I think is an even greater looming threat, your employer dictating what you do in your off time.

[tttppp]

As long as you are getting your job done, who cares how long you spend in the bathroom? Track someone's performance, not their performance in the bathroom.

[tttppp]

Also, this employer is making a big deal about nothing. In my experience as a manager, I never had to have a discussion with an employee over time spent in the bathroom. This is just something stupid managers do. They poke their head out of their office once a day and bitch at people and make stupid rules trying to make it look like they are in charge.

[acptulsa]

They went too far when you quit.

That's the joy, from a corporatist perspective, of trashing the economy out from under us and running the real unemployment rate up to 25%. It stiffens our upper lips and encourages us to bend over in a more accomodating way.

[jkr]

FORTUNATELY i sit 12 feet from the toilet...that i share with a gassy co-worker...

[Pisces]

Also, this employer is making a big deal about nothing. In my experience as a manager, I never had to have a discussion with an employee over time spent in the bathroom. This is just something stupid managers do. They poke their head out of their office once a day and bitch at people and make stupid rules trying to make it look like they are in charge.

I think you're on to something here. Bad managers often don't know enough about what they are supervising to even be able to judge based on performance so they focus on things like time tracking.

[Anti Federalist]

They went too far when you quit.

That's the joy, from a corporatist perspective, of trashing the economy out from under us and running the real unemployment rate up to 25%. It stiffens our upper lips and encourages us to bend over in a more accomodating way.

Boat load of truth there.

[RickyJ]

Just don't press the button for bathroom breaks if you don't want them to know. Get on the line with someone then tell them to hold then go to the bathroom, come back and resume conversation if they are still on the line.

[bunklocoempire]

When Does Time Tracking at Work Go Too Far?

I don't like being told how to run my own business (no employees), or my wife and her business (several employees).

That being said, it is our experience that happy employees generally make for happy customers and happy employers.

As far as a large mail order pharmacy, or large anythings go, I certainly have seen the negative results of 'bottom line' focused policies rather than customer focused strategies.

Customers will migrate, but only when they can. (employees will migrate when they can also -as a few have mentioned)

A heavily manipulated regulated industry treating it's cattle employees less than favorably?

Who woulda guessed? :toady:

[tttppp]

I don't like being told how to run my own business (no employees), or my wife and her business (several employees).

That being said, it is our experience that happy employees generally make for happy customers and happy employers.

As far as a large mail order pharmacy, or large anythings go, I certainly have seen the negative results of 'bottom line' focused policies rather than customer focused strategies.

Customers will migrate, but only when they can. (employees will migrate when they can also -as a few have mentioned)

A heavily manipulated regulated industry treating it's cattle employees less than favorably?

Who woulda guessed? :toady:

I agree. That's why I always encouraged employees to have fun at work, and generally didn't require them to do anything except getting their job done.

[oyarde]

If somebody is really concerned about loss of productivity for the bathroom , they probably will not last long anyway ....

[KCIndy]

If my employer ever started showing an unusual interest in my bathroom productivity, I would bring 'em back a piece of it! :D :D

[Carson]

Nothing quite says "AMERICA!!!" like getting paid for dropping off a corny one.


Is there nothing sacred anymore?

[Tod]

I'm glad I'm self-employed.

[mad cow]

Just be good at what you do.I have never had a sales job but I bet a salesman who sells $1800 in product a day while taking 18 bathroom breaks will stay hired longer than one who sells $0.00 a day while taking zero breaks.
If not,it's the company's loss and the good salesman will get another job elsewhere and never look back.

[Brian4Liberty]

They went too far when you quit.

That's the joy, from a corporatist perspective, of trashing the economy out from under us and running the real unemployment rate up to 25%. It stiffens our upper lips and encourages us to bend over in a more accomodating way.

Yep. Increase the supply of labor, and people become worth less. Those with no worth have no rights, and no liberty.

[Brian4Liberty]

Just be good at what you do.I have never had a sales job but I bet a salesman who sells $1800 in product a day while taking 18 bathroom breaks will stay hired longer than one who sells $0.00 a day while taking zero breaks.
If not,it's the company's loss and the good salesman will get another job elsewhere and never look back.

Maybe in some cases, but not all.

[Occam's Banana]

if your employer tells you to stand on your head in the corner and jerk off, well, tough shit, do it, or find another job.

Well, actually ... I mean, hey, ... there *are* more unpleasant things you could do for a buck ... (especially if they supplied a pillow) ...

(Believe me, I know - I used to work in the Evisceration department of a poultry processing plant.)

[donnay]

Since we are going the way of China...soon there will be a time that you have no bathroom breaks and you will just have to wear depends and do it in your pants.

Maternity leave? Do like some Asian cultures do while working in the rice paddies they just squat, give birth, pick the baby up and get right back to work.

ETA: Since I got -rep for this I should have made sure to say I was being sarcastic. :rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

Well, actually ... I mean, hey, ... there *are* more unpleasant things you could do for a buck ... (especially if they supplied a pillow) ...

(Believe me, I know - I used to work in the Evisceration department of a poultry processing plant.)

LOL - Yah, I used to gut squid, myself.

Nasty nasty nasty.

[KCIndy]

There will be plenty of people that come into this thread that will tell you that while at work, nothing is too far, if your employer tells you to stand on your head in the corner and jerk off, well, tough shit, do it, or find another job.



What the....

You mean they *PAY* for that??

Damn!! And here all this time I was doing it for fr-- uh.... err.....


Never mind. :o:o

[Occam's Banana]

LOL - Yah, I used to gut squid, myself.

Nasty nasty nasty.

Yep. And I consider myself lucky ...

The guys who worked in Receiving (a.k.a. "Live Hang") would end every shift liberally spattered from head to toe with chicken shit.

[oyarde]

Yep. And I consider myself lucky ...

The guys who worked in Receiving (a.k.a. "Live Hang") would end every shift liberally spattered from head to toe with chicken shit. Meh , I just think of it as reprocessed grain ....

[Danke]

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/i/2011/07/05/bosses/lumberg-office-space_320.jpg

http://www.hecklerspray.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/office-space-06_full.jpg

[tod evans]

When you're self employed every customer is your boss..

[CaptLouAlbano]

Call centers are the 21st century sweatshops of America. My son is a business consultant and did some work for a few of them, so I have some inside knowledge on the business. Call centers are measured in averages per hour of: the number of calls they take, the length of the call, the length of hold time (if the agent needs to put the customer on hold), the length of time the customer is waiting for someone to pick up, and other factors.

Call center agents are thus evaluated on how well they fall within the averages, as well as the average amount of time per shift that they are on a call or waiting for a call. So if an agent works an 8.5 hour shift, perfection would be to be on the phone or waiting for a call for 7.5 hours (8.5 minus 30 minute lunch & two 15 minute breaks); as well as falling in the average of all the above metrics they are measured on. Any other time off the phone (bathroom breaks, etc) counts against their performance. Now of course, companies have certain tolerances for these other off the phone times, but the time is still evaluated so that agents do not spend too much time off the phone.

It is a horrible job. But it is a job that you can get with only a high school diploma, and from what I understand they pay far better than most other entry level type jobs.

[DamianTV]

When you're self employed every customer is your boss..

But not every boss of the self employed can destroy your livelyhood, unlike the corporations who only give a shit about their bottom line, at the expense of everything else. The corporations dont really give a shit about either their employees or their customers, they find as many ways to fuck both out of as much as possible.

[RickyJ]

But not every boss of the self employed can destroy your livelyhood, unlike the corporations who only give a shit about their bottom line, at the expense of everything else. The corporations dont really give a shit about either their employees or their customers, they find as many ways to fuck both out of as much as possible.

This is true for many of them.

[Tod]

When you're self employed every customer is your boss..

And all they care about is results with a smile, mostly.

[UtahApocalypse]

New???

I had to do this 10 years ago at a call center. Not only did it track our time in the facilities but we were not paid for our "off" time.

[DamianTV]

I used to try to please each and every one of my customers, until they crossed obvious lines. When that happened, I simply refused them service. It wasnt worth it to me to have miserable employees that took abuse from me and customers because the business would suffer. It was easy to not be abusive to my employees by simply not doing it, but when they took the brunt of the abuse of the customers, I always felt it was my responsibility to step in and shield them from excessively abusive customers. The customer is NOT always right. They arent always wrong, and it has to be determined on a case by case basis. But customers demands can sometimes go way way too far. Just think of the people that sued McDonalds because they spilled hot coffee on themselves and blamed Mickey D's for it. Those are the ones I'd tell to go elsewhere, but for the most part, customers are easy to deal with, even in call centers. Sorry, we provide internet service, so we dont really have anything to do with your printer.

Corporations on the other hand, seem to be abusive to their employees much much more frequently, and shit rolls downhill. If they had their druthers, they would work you to death, never give you a raise, or even have to offer any other temptations to get you to work there to begin with. They would monitor your at home behavior for any excuse to terminate your employment. I have a feeling that when the shit finally does hit the fan, those companies that are most abusive to their employees are going to see a real shit storm of pissed off employees attacking their own bosses.

[tod evans]

The corporations dont really give a shit about either their employees or their customers, they find as many ways to fuck both out of as much as possible.

Yes they do, and that's probably why most folks choose to only use them as a temporary source of employment.

Customers on the otherhand have the option of shopping elsewhere....and they will if they don't like how they're treated.

[TheTexan]

Feel free to exercise civil disobedience at work too. You don't have to follow every company policy. If you're going to get fired because you didn't press a button on the way to the bathroom, then you would no doubt be better off finding other employment anyway.

Don't ever be a slave to your job. I don't care if they are the only game in town. The worst thing you can do for yourself is to stay in a bad relationship getting treated like shit because you feel you have no other choice.

[roho76]

They went too far when you quit.

That's the joy, from a corporatist perspective, of trashing the economy out from under us and running the real unemployment rate up to 25%. It stiffens our upper lips and encourages us to bend over in a more accomodating way.

+Rep

That pretty much sums it up.

[Elwar]

When talking about privacy at work and when do things go "too far". Just think about prostitutes, and what they have to put up with on the job.

Your boss knowing when you go potty will not seem so bad.

Then again, you may start to wonder at what point is your position much different from that of the prostitute.

[PaulConventionWV]

When talking about privacy at work and when do things go "too far". Just think about prostitutes, and what they have to put up with on the job.

Your boss knowing when you go potty will not seem so bad.

Then again, you may start to wonder at what point is your position much different from that of the prostitute.

Exactly. Most people don't choose that line of work for a reason.

[angelatc]

If somebody is really concerned about loss of productivity for the bathroom , they probably will not last long anyway ....

Loss of productivity for any reason is undesirable, but unavoidable. Managing loss of productivity is an essential function of any business. What I don't see is the other clockout reasons.....

If the employer is trying to determine how to efficiently design call centers by figuring out if the costs of additional bathrooms will pay for themselves by reduced travel time to and from those restrooms, how else would you suggest they gather their data?

[angelatc]

Feel free to exercise civil disobedience at work too. You don't have to follow every company policy. If you're going to get fired because you didn't press a button on the way to the bathroom, then you would no doubt be better off finding other employment anyway.



It's a call center. If you don't press a button on the way to the bathroom, you'll get fired for not answering the people on the other end of the phone saying, "Hello? Hello?" when the computer patches them through to your available line.

[TheTexan]

It's a call center. If you don't press a button on the way to the bathroom, you'll get fired for not answering the people on the other end of the phone saying, "Hello? Hello?" when the computer patches them through to your available line.

That sounds like a legitimate business need, then. What's the bitching about? Should the button be labelled "smoke break, bathroom, or otherwise not at the computer?"

[CaptLouAlbano]

That sounds like a legitimate business need, then. What's the bitching about? Should the button be labelled "smoke break, bathroom, or otherwise not at the computer?"

I checked with my son on this. The ones that he is familiar with had people log out for lunch, break time (their scheduled 15 min break), away from phone (this would be for bathroom use), and supervisor request. From what I gather in a call center you are expected to be at your desk, on a call or ready to answer a call for all of your shift. They do not have the freedom to get up and catch a smoke or grab a cup of coffee whenever they choose as typical office workers can. They do have a threshold for bathroom breaks or other situations that may arise during the day, and they monitor that. When an employee falls below that threshold they are talked to by their manager, and told that they need to improve.

[TheTexan]

Shrug. Sounds reasonable enough to me. If you work at a call center, it makes sense that you should be expected to be ready to receive calls. Don't like it, and want smoke breaks or whatever? Take your smoke break. If you're a valuable asset you won't get fired for a smoke break.

If you're not a valuable asset (and chances are you're not, you're working at a call center), it would be a good idea to work somewhere you are a valuable asset.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Shrug. Sounds reasonable enough to me. If you work at a call center, it makes sense that you should be expected to be ready to receive calls. Don't like it, and want smoke breaks or whatever? Take your smoke break. If you're a valuable asset you won't get fired for a smoke break.

If you're not a valuable asset (and chances are you're not, you're working at a call center), it would be a good idea to work somewhere you are a valuable asset.

I think you nailed it there. From my understanding, it is an entry level job. But as far as entry level jobs go, it pays decent and has benefits.

The turnover rate is really high in call centers, and my son was brought in by a couple places to help retain workers since the cost of hiring and training is so high. He implemented a rewards program, and it worked. Amazing how a pizza party and a free tshirt now and then improves morale.

[angelatc]

Shrug. Sounds reasonable enough to me. If you work at a call center, it makes sense that you should be expected to be ready to receive calls. Don't like it, and want smoke breaks or whatever? Take your smoke break. If you're a valuable asset you won't get fired for a smoke break.

If you're not a valuable asset (and chances are you're not, you're working at a call center), it would be a good idea to work somewhere you are a valuable asset.

That's about it. Problem is that people tend to think they're worth a lot more than they actually are.

[Lindsey]

I worked in a call center (still sometimes work there on a per diem basis) and either my experience is an exception or a lot of what's being typed here is repeating of stereotypes and not based in reality. Other than self-employment it was the most enjoyable job I ever had, despite having also had a more "prestigious" career, certainly be no means a modern day sweat-shop. Basically, I got paid good money to talk to people on the phone. During slow times, I also helped with projects, mostly data entry. We were required to have a fairly deep knowledge-base, college degrees and the appropriate licensing. The only scripting we had was the greeting, from there we took the call in whatever direction it needed to go to both satisfy the customer and make sure they had the information they needed, so long as professional decorum was maintained. I knew all of my calls were recorded and I could look at "the board" and see how long I was logged in, talk-time, etc. No one Ever discussed this data with me - I knew they had it and if I was doing something problematic they would mention it though, but mostly it was used for scheduling. I was free to leave my desk when I needed without feeling like someone was keeping tabs on me. Spent a good amount of time socializing with my coworkers, which was never a problem unless someone made a habit of leaving calls "bounce" (i.e. after 3 rings, the call would ring at someone else's desk.) During our busy season our lunch breaks (1 hour) were scheduled, so that there was adequate coverage. I had a decent size cubicle in a heated/air-conditioned room, with a reasonable level of privacy and a window with a view. Certainly by no means did I ever feel that I was treated unjustly by my employer, let alone would I consider it a sweatshop.

But to the original topic, if you feel that your employer has crossed your personal line and it cannot be fixed, start looking for another position. There are always options. If you keep your head about you and be willing to adapt, you will always land on your feet. The only time I was ever laid-off from a job, it turned out to be the best thing to ever to me. As much as I may have felt stuck in a job, it really helped me to enjoy my work and my life in general, when I came to realize that, "You don't need THAT job." For myself, I feel I really don't need any job, survival is much easier when you let go of all the extraneous BS that is tying you to the corporate world. Don't hold yourself back, it may be scary, but if your current situation is not making you happy, change it. Change isn't easy and it won't just happen - but when you choose to change the things that are dragging you down, the only question you are left asking is usually, "why didn't I do this sooner?"