Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell: Odd-couple allies

[cajuncocoa]

http://images.politico.com/global/2012/09/120913_rand_paul_mitch_mcconnell_ap_605.jpgBoth men clearly believe they have something to gain from the partnership. | AP Photo
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By MANU RAJU (http://www.politico.com/reporters/ManuRaju.html) | 9/13/12 7:10 PM EDT



The two men couldn’t be more different on paper: One is a five-term septuagenarian, career politician and the embodiment of the Republican establishment; the other a 49-year-old tea party firebrand who never before held elected office and the de facto leader of the libertarian movement.

But behind the scenes, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (http://www.politico.com/tag/mitchmcconnell) and freshman Sen. Rand Paul (http://www.politico.com/tag/rand-paul) are charting anything but divergent paths. They are methodically forming a tight-knit alliance to bridge the divide between the sparring factions of their party, an effort that could boost their own political careers in the process.

Sensing a tea party uprising back home after Paul defeated McConnell’s hand-picked candidate in the 2010 Senate primary, the calculating Republican leader focused on bringing Paul and his supporters under his wing. Two years later, it’s paying off: The two men barnstorm the state together in both official and political events; throw high-dollar fundraisers for one another; and are trying to merge the GOP’s tea party wing with the party’s establishment, social conservative and business wings — heading off an intraparty war that has uprooted Republican politics in many parts of the country.

The latest example came Thursday, when McConnell announced he had hired Jesse Benton (http://www.politico.com//blogs/on-congress/2012/09/mcconnell-hires-campaign-aide-to-ron-and-rand-paul-135422.html) — a top aide to both Paul’s Senate campaign in 2010 and Rep. Ron Paul’s presidential campaign this year — to lead what could be the toughest reelection campaign of the Republican leader’s career in 2014.

The year-long search that ended with Benton’s hiring was a major signal to Republicans that McConnell views support from the younger libertarian and tea party movements as crucial not only to his political future, but also to his party’s prospects nationally.

“The last thing we want are tea party folks to feel like they’re not welcome in the Republican Party and then they’d have to form a third party that would hurt both of us,” Sen. John Cornyn, chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, said when asked about the alliance between Paul and McConnell. “I think it’s been a positive development.”

Still, the move isn’t risk-free. The tea party remains unpopular nationally, and Democrats have a voter registration advantage in Kentucky — meaning any shift to the right could hurt McConnell in what will likely be a furious Democratic challenge in 2014. Paul, meanwhile, risks alienating some supporters who worry the establishment will co-opt the purist movement.
Still, both men clearly believe they have something to gain.

McConnell lends establishment credibility to Paul, who’s seen by some Republicans as the leader of a fringe movement that gave his father Ron Paul the perch to call for a radically smaller government and isolationist policies abroad. Their alliance could help the younger Paul forge a broader coalition of supporters — something he began to do in an address to the GOP convention — as he decides whether to make a run for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016 or 2020, or survive a Senate reelection bid in five years.

For McConnell, the Paul relationship could help him gain clout with the tea party movement, which has a mixed track record defeating entrenched members of Congress. McConnell angered tea party types two years ago when he backed Paul’s GOP primary opponent, Trey Grayson.

“In 2010, the establishment Republicans for the most part supported Paul, despite misgivings. That helped him to win,” Grayson said. “One of the keys for McConnell is to keep the tea party behind him in 2014.”

In interviews Thursday, neither Paul nor McConnell would talk much about their relationship.

Paul called it “very good.”

“We’re excited about it,” Paul said of the Benton hire. “I think Jesse will do a great job for him.”

When asked about his relationship with Paul, McConnell would only say: “Well, we’ve established a very good working relationship.”
It didn’t happen overnight.




Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81194.html#ixzz26RgvUQ4h

[CaptLouAlbano]

Interesting for those considering putting up a primary challenger to McConnell. It looks like they will be going up against Rand in many respects if they do so, since I doubt highly that Rand would endorse a challenger over McConnell.

[acptulsa]

“The last thing we want are tea party folks to feel like they’re not welcome in the Republican Party and then they’d have to form a third party that would hurt both of us,” Sen. John Cornyn, chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, said when asked about the alliance between Paul and McConnell. “I think it’s been a positive development.”


So why the hell didn't he send this memo to the Republican National Convention? Now the 'positive development' has been set back a decade.

[georgiaboy]

I choose to be cautiously optimistic about this development.

[BamaFanNKy]

Interesting for those considering putting up a primary challenger to McConnell. It looks like they will be going up against Rand in many respects if they do so, since I doubt highly that Rand would endorse a challenger over McConnell.

Seriously guys, there is not a sane option to primary Mitch. People have mentioned Thomas Massie. I LOVE THOMAS and would want him to be Senator but he's in a bad financial and networking situation going against Mitch (Most are so this is not a slam). Secondly, he'll have a nice spot in the House. We as the Liberty Movement in Kentucky will have a shot in 2015 for a US House seat in Rand's home district since it looks like Brett Guthrie is running for Governor. Also, it's a better shot at unseating Hal Rogers in the 5th than Mitch McConnell. I think Mitch has this, even the dems can't find someone to beat him.

I'd rather have 1 Senator and 3 congressman.

[Carlybee]

Well guess I may be off this forum because I will not support Rand if he supports McConnell. The man who voted to extend the Patriot Act, wiretapping of citizens, etc. No way, no how.

If you don't stand for something, you don't stand for anything.

[BamaFanNKy]

Well guess I may be off this forum because I will not support Rand if he supports McConnell. The man who voted to extend the Patriot Act, wiretapping of citizens, etc. No way, no how.

But you supported Ron after backing Bachmann and others?

[Voluntary Man]

if McConnell wins, the liberty movement loses. choose sides, now: move forward, and take down McConnell, or return to the back of the bus, and sit down and shut up.

[Voluntary Man]

you want Rand to be the senior senator from Ky, and a serious candidate in 2016? that's how it's played: take Mitch out!

[LibertyEagle]

I choose to be cautiously optimistic about this development.

Me too. It makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I will remain, watching his votes.

[specsaregood]

you want Rand to be the senior senator from Ky, and a serious candidate in 2016? that's how it's played: take Mitch out!

On the otherhand, if Rand wants to be a serious presidential candidate, working with Mitch is how its played.

[Carlybee]

But you supported Ron after backing Bachmann and others?

Ron also went on national TV and said Bachmann hates Muslims..in effect denouncing her craziness. There are a few things I forgive Ron because I know there are big things he wouldn't compromise on. I feel Rand is more ambiguous.
Anyway I just realized this is Rand's forum so I will bow out of this conversation while I can.

[BamaFanNKy]

Ron also went on national TV and said Bachmann hates Muslims..in effect denouncing her craziness. There are a few things I forgive Ron because I know there are big things he wouldn't compromise on. I feel Rand is more ambiguous.

Your feelings and facts are far from each other.

Rand went to the floor of the Senate and obliterated Mitch's hero.

[Carlybee]

Your feelings and facts are far from each other.

Rand went to the floor of the Senate and obliterated Mitch's hero.

Yet now he is allied with him, seemingly.

[BamaFanNKy]

Yet now he is allied with him, seemingly.

The point is.... sometimes you have to work with people you disagree with. More so when you need their people to get yours elected.

[Voluntary Man]

On the otherhand, if Rand wants to be a serious presidential candidate, working with Mitch is how its played.

on the other hand, if Rand makes himself virtually indistinguishable from Mitch, what's the point?

if you want to be absorbed, assimilated, play it your way. if you want power, you have to demonstrate it. take Mitch down!

[BamaFanNKy]

on the other hand, if Rand makes himself virtually indistinguishable from Mitch, what's the point?

if you want to be absorbed, assimilated, play it your way. if you want power, you have to demonstrate it. take Mitch down!

There is a difference in taking power tactically and doing a suicide mission.

[specsaregood]

on the other hand, if Rand makes himself virtually indistinguishable from Mitch, what's the point?

if you want to be absorbed, assimilated, play it your way. if you want power, you have to demonstrate it. take Mitch down!

If you think he is becoming indistinguishable from mitch, then you aren't paying attention. One does not have to become another person in order to work with them.

[CaptLouAlbano]

if you want to be absorbed, assimilated, play it your way. if you want power, you have to demonstrate it. take Mitch down!

With who? I don't know KY politics all that well, so who has the ability to raise $15 million, has statewide name recognition, can secure the support and/or endorsements from a good portion of the thousands of precinct committeemen and women in KY, and has an existing base within the state that can be used to present a viable challenge?

[BamaFanNKy]

Mitch has 6 Million on hand in 2012 for a 2014 race.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Mitch has 6 Million on hand in 2012 for a 2014 race.

That's why I estimated 15 in my above post. He raised I think about 25 last run right?

[BamaFanNKy]

That's why I estimated 15 in my above post. He raised I think about 25 last run right?

Nah. It was about 16 million.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Nah. It was about 16 million.

Ok well at least then those who want to primary him have a number to shoot for.

[Badger Paul]

Forget Jesse Benton, who, if you believe Penny Langford-Freeman, is a buffoon who many members of the Paul "family" consider the sap of the tree.

But even the black sheep are useful if you have strict, defined roles for them to carry out and for Jesse that's being an intermediary between the Pauls and the media and others persons outside of the "Family", which is basically what he did for the 2012 campaign. He decided who got access and who didn't, sort of a castle guard if you will as Tom Woods and Adam Kokesh and others found out to their chagrin. And it allows the media to see him as the fellow in charge (even though he never was "officially" campaign manager) and see the Pauls as a family operation while the real decisions were being made by Rand, Trygve Olson and John Tate and Debbie Hopper. Indeed if you believe Langford-Freeman, Jesse's role was basically to speak out loud whatever Olson would whisper to him. Olson, whose former role in the politico-intelligence field was destabilizing governments, probably prefers working incognito, being the power behind the throne than having a public role. If you understand this then you'll understand Benton's usefulness in being a front man.

By putting it in these terms then we won't make the mistake of elevating Benton beyond the hack that he really is. He's the typical sort of political junkie you'll find bouncing around the D.C. area looking for any kind of work they can scrape up for themselves (a think think, a lobbying group, a staffer for some first-term Congressman). As Kent Snyder himself said, Benton was "unemployable and willing to work cheap" which made him the perfect hire for a campaign in 2008 which wasn't designed or planned to win anything. Benton didn't know anything about Ron Paul. But once he did he realized that the way you get close to Paul, outside of longtime mutual friendship (ala Lew Rockwell for example), is by being a member of the Family, which is exactly what he did by marrying the boss's granddaughter. As we all know RP is loath to trust anyone outside the Family. It was probably the smartest move Jesse's made in five years.

So if Jesse's Mitch McConnell's campaign chairman for 2014 it's because McConnell thinks he's so secure even Jesse can't screw it up. And by having him, again, out in front, it discourages any potential Tea Party challengers. His hire, along with Rand's early endorsement, protects him from intra-party challenge. You can try but you won't be getting any donor lists or money from the Family that's for sure. Good luck to you.

The real story is the relationship between Rand and Mitch. This relationship is not so much friendship but one of mutual interests. Rand's not adverse to hitching his star to an establishment figure (and you can't get more establishment than McConnell) if he thinks it will benefit him. If McConnell wasn't the party leader and senior senator from Rand's home state the relationship might be different and Rand might take more of a Jim DeMint role in the Senate. But Rand is going places, DeMint isn't and Rand probably figures, and he's probably right, being under the wing of Mitch McConnell will help his ambitions better than being a gadfly like his father was. For McConnell, Rand is useful in keeping DeMint from challenging his leadership. He hopes to become majority leader again and doesn't want to have to worry about someone taking it away from him. Without Rand, DeMint can't mount a credible challenge. And when you think about it realistically, for Rand to be a part of any challenge to McConnell would tear the GOP in Kentucky apart and put his own career in peril. Rand is too smart to do that.

Go back to 2010 just after Rand won the primary. He dumps his campaign manager, Dave Adams, who helped him beat McConnell's machine candidate, for Jesse. At the time it was sold was a way for Benton to get more campaign experience to help Ron out in 2012. The reality of course Jesse was fronting for McConnell's man Trygve Olson and Olson was running the show for McConnell. But the question is why dump Adams for one of McConnell's proteges? Because McConnell pulled out one of the oldest political maneuvers in the book: If you can't beat em' join 'em. Or have them join you. And after the whole Maddow interview fiasco Rand was willing to listen as McConnell no doubt bluntly told him he would need NRSCC money (which McConnell controlled) and McConnell's organization to beat the Democrats, who were going to use the interview and other things they dug up against Rand and spend 4-to-5 times what Rand could raise from money bombs, the Club for Growth or DeMint's PAC for TV ads distorting Rand's remarks and campaign positions. There's no doubt McConnell flattered Rand, said he was the future of the party and that he (McConnell) would help him get to the top by offering money and access to big player donors and persons in high places. As I said, as Kentucky's senior senator and Republican leader in the Senate, it was an offer Rand could not refuse. Even though Rand had beaten McConnell's hand-picked candidate in the primary, Rand didn't feel himself to be in a position to turn down McConell's help. If he had, chances are McConnell would not have endorsed Rand and other Republicans in state would have taken it as a signal not to help him either. Instead of being Senator Paul he could have easily wound up like Christine O'Donnell. And the same is true if Rand wants to run for President. If he doesn't have the backing of the state's Republican politicians, including McConnell, he has no chance.

I'm not trying to justify Rand's Faustian bargain. I'm just trying to explain why he made it in the first place. The danger of course with all this political maneuvering, is the message gets watered down or lost. With Ron you never had to worry about this because he was his own man and had his own powerbase. He didn't have to rely on patrons. He could do what he wanted. But winning a CD compared to winning a state are two different things and I'm sure we're all aware, Ron is no politician. In fact he hates politics. He only uses it as a means to larger purpose, getting out the message. But Rand likes politics and is willing to do those political things that many find distasteful but also many us find necessary to survive and thrive.

The larger question for all of us is not how we change the politics, which as part of the natural relationships between human beings does not change, but make the politics fit the message. In other words, Rand might be more willing to be like his father, especially on foreign policy or the drug war, if its was to his political benefit. And to do that, we have to change the debate, change the culture and change minds. That's what we need to do over the next four years, not worry about what little Jesse Benton is doing or not doing. Who cares? If you change the debate to make it more politically beneficial to be non-interventionist in the Republican Party and to oppose the Drug War, then Rand will be there with you and a whole lot of other people as well.

[Liberty74]

I choose to be cautiously optimistic about this development.

Oh please, this is very BAD. Just more evidence of co-opting occurring. Nothing good can come of this if one truly understands the purpose of the two party criminal system and why it's set up that way.

Just another reason to bolt the GOP at the national level and take over the Indy Party to offer real change for once.

[Aratus]

i've spent the morning looking at my old "borat' or bob barr postings as i think again
about our own stevemartin from aroostook taking on gentleman mitt that time
and in the interum "Badger Paul" somewhat cynically and brilliantly has spelled out
the lay of the kentucky landscape. senators mitch mcconnell & doctor rand paul
do not want to be unseated by jack conway in any hurry or by anyone of his ilk, but
if jesse's only function is to set up a strategic bufferzone inside the campaign,
what does mitch mcconnell gain from this all other than the fact that jesse benton
also knows the people around rand paul & ron paul as well as quite a few of the
people bob barr had around him at one point. we again are debating how deeply we
can go inside the 'innards" of the GOP and the choises we make each day thusly.
we knew this would not be easy or simple to understand, and we need to think it thru.

[fr33]

on the other hand, if Rand makes himself virtually indistinguishable from Mitch, what's the point?

if you want to be absorbed, assimilated, play it your way. if you want power, you have to demonstrate it. take Mitch down!Are endorsements the only thing you follow in politics?

[July]

Oh please, this is very BAD. Just more evidence of co-opting occurring. Nothing good can come of this if one truly understands the purpose of the two party criminal system and why it's set up that way.

Just another reason to bolt the GOP at the national level and take over the Indy Party to offer real change for once.

It's not going to happen, until such time that there are significant numbers of independent minded folks in power. Cart before the horse...

[Deborah K]

This whole thing just feels like another co-opt to me. The entrenched republican establishment (which McConnell is -make no mistake about it) knows how to co-opt. They did it to the Tea Party, and now they're doing it to certain factions of the freedom movement. Rand is about to lie in a bed of snakes.

[BamaFanNKy]

This whole thing just feels like another co-opt to me. The entrenched republican establishment (which McConnell is -make no mistake about it) knows how to co-opt. They did it to the Tea Party, and now they're doing it to certain factions of the freedom movement. Rand is about to lie in a bed of snakes.

How many times have you talked to Rand or his staff? Are you familiar with the GOP now backing Hemp production in Kentucky? Or the mountain of other legislation that was never thought to be pushed in Kentucky? How about Chris Hightower now having a good shot at winning a State House seat or Massie winning in N. Ky.

[Deborah K]

How many times have you talked to Rand or his staff? Are you familiar with the GOP now backing Hemp production in Kentucky? Or the mountain of other legislation that was never thought to be pushed in Kentucky? How about Chris Hightower now having a good shot at winning a State House seat or Massie winning in N. Ky.

I've talked to Rand one time. So what? Good for Kentucky pushing through good legislation. What has that to do with McConnell's agenda, past voting record, and ties with entrenched establishment types?

[July]

This whole thing just feels like another co-opt to me. The entrenched republican establishment (which McConnell is -make no mistake about it) knows how to co-opt. They did it to the Tea Party, and now they're doing it to certain factions of the freedom movement. Rand is about to lie in a bed of snakes.

There are potential co-opting forces everywhere, all of the time. Anytime you get involved in politics at any level, the danger is there. The only way to prevent the threat is to extract yourself from the system and avoid politics completely...and even then, that is not 100%. There has to be another way of dealing with it, other than fear.

[Occam's Banana]

Me too. It makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I will remain, watching his votes.

This. The only things that really matter are his senate votes and actions (such as fillibustering - in regards to which, see, for example, foreign aid to Pakistan/Libya).

Otherwise, he can sing "The Internationale" before every public appearance, for all I care.

[specsaregood]

//

[Deborah K]

There are potential co-opting forces everywhere, all of the time. Anytime you get involved in politics at any level, the danger is there. The only way to prevent the threat is to extract yourself from the system and avoid politics completely...and even then, that is not 100%. There has to be another way of dealing with it, other than fear.

I'm not a political strategist by any stretch, and time will certainly tell who is co-opting whom. But based on what we all just went through, i.e. all of the vote flipping, fraud, and corruption during the primaries, state and national conventions, do you really believe tptb will EVER let a Paul have the Presidency - unless he is corruptable? Rand is clearly not Ron, but he is the 'chosen one' to carry Ron's mantle, and if he is FOR adherence to the Constitution, and thus, national and individual sovereignty, then his objectives are not in line with the globalist agenda.

Food for thought.

[BamaFanNKy]

People who think that Rand is being co-opted are not paying attention. Ron was awful at politics. He was relevant to a small group of voters. He did matter and lit a fire under many new voices. That said, Rand learned from his dad's mistakes and is trying to position ourselves more in power. Some of you believe a steamroller strategy will work.... Good. Keep that up. We need people to work any way they can to advance liberty. Just stop attacking people for trying their way to move the ball.

[Carlybee]

The problem would be electibility. If Rand decides to run for president and he is aligned with all these neocon and pseudo Tea Party people he will only get support from those types of people and it will not only re-energize the Dems but could turn off the Independents, libertarians and undecideds. I'm a small l libertarian and the thought already turns me off. If you are a conservative trying to pretend to be for liberty then that's another story but seeing as Rand is diametrically opposed to some of McConnell's voting record...where is the compromise going to be?

[Voluntary Man]

I'm sorry, did i miss some late-life conversion by Mitchy?

did i miss the Bentone's incompetency?

did i miss that Ron was blackmailed by the neocon machine?

what did i miss?

[Occam's Banana]

Just another reason to bolt the GOP at the national level and take over the Indy Party to offer real change for once.

I need more information. Please provide an email address or website for this Indy Party of which you speak.

What are their positions?
Who are their candidates?
How many ballots are they on?
When is their convention?


Oh please, this is very BAD. Just more evidence of co-opting occurring. Nothing good can come of this if one truly understands the purpose of the two party criminal system and why it's set up that way.

You can't have it both ways. If the establishment is as invincibly omnipotent as you claim, then your mythical "Indy Party" is every bit as doomed to abysmal failure as the rest of us are.

[fr33]

I'm sorry, did i miss some late-life conversion by Mitchy?

did i miss the Bentone's incompetency?

did i miss that Ron was blackmailed by the neocon machine?

what did i miss?You've missed Rand standing up to the police state apparatus, standing up against foreign aid, and many other things apparently.

[jmdrake]

“The last thing we want are tea party folks to feel like they’re not welcome in the Republican Party and then they’d have to form a third party that would hurt both of us,” Sen. John Cornyn, chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, said when asked about the alliance between Paul and McConnell. “I think it’s been a positive development.”


So why the hell didn't he send this memo to the Republican National Convention? Now the 'positive development' has been set back a decade.

Because to them Rand Paul = "tea party" and Ron Paul = "crazy libertarian".

[jmdrake]

The problem would be electibility. If Rand decides to run for president and he is aligned with all these neocon and pseudo Tea Party people he will only get support from those types of people and it will not only re-energize the Dems but could turn off the Independents, libertarians and undecideds. I'm a small l libertarian and the thought already turns me off. If you are a conservative trying to pretend to be for liberty then that's another story but seeing as Rand is diametrically opposed to some of McConnell's voting record...where is the compromise going to be?

The hope is that Rand will in 2016 pull all of the McCain/Romney voters and a sizable enough percentage of the "NOBP" voters plus other conservatives who just stayed at home to beat whoever the dems put up in 2016. I do agree with your sentiment that Rand will be unable to put together the kind of Indy - libertarian - disgruntled dem coalition Ron put together.

[July]

I'm not a political strategist by any stretch, and time will certainly tell who is co-opting whom. But based on what we all just went through, i.e. all of the vote flipping, fraud, and corruption during the primaries, state and national conventions, do you really believe tptb will EVER let a Paul have the Presidency - unless he is corruptable? Rand is clearly not Ron, but he is the 'chosen one' to carry Ron's mantle, and if he is FOR adherence to the Constitution, and thus, national and individual sovereignty, then his objectives are not in line with the globalist agenda.

Food for thought.

I'm suggesting that yes, some allies will be co-opted and fall. It will happen. But fear will only lead to apathy and inaction...

The problem, in my opinion, is not that co-option is irresistible to all people, it is that those who are strong and independent minded enough to resist, tend very often to reject power and will not involve themselves. What made Ron Paul so unusual, IMO, was not that he was a free thinker...though he was. It was that being a free thinker, he inserted himself in the thick of things anyway.

Sure, I'm skeptical there will ever be a liberty minded president in my lifetime. But I'm also pretty sure that constant fear of co-option will set us back tenfold, if we pick up our toys and leave.

[Deborah K]

The problem would be electibility. If Rand decides to run for president and he is aligned with all these neocon and pseudo Tea Party people he will only get support from those types of people and it will not only re-energize the Dems but could turn off the Independents, libertarians and undecideds. I'm a small l libertarian and the thought already turns me off. If you are a conservative trying to pretend to be for liberty then that's another story but seeing as Rand is diametrically opposed to some of McConnell's voting record...where is the compromise going to be?

I've always said: If you can't be um - infiltrate.

Maybe that is the strategy. Maybe, Rand and his supporters will be able to accomplish that. I pray for it. But my gut tells me it's too late for that kind of strategy. The electoral process is corrupt to its very core. The new system that they intend to collapse the old one into is well on its way.

[Deborah K]

I'm suggesting that yes, some allies will be co-opted and fall. It will happen. But fear will only lead to apathy and inaction...

The problem, in my opinion, is not that co-option is irresistible to all people, it is that those who are strong and independent minded enough to resist, tend very often to reject power and will not involve themselves. What made Ron Paul so unusual, IMO, was not that he was a free thinker...though he was. It was that being a free thinker, he inserted himself in the thick of things anyway.

Sure, I'm skeptical there will ever be a liberty minded president in my lifetime. But I'm also pretty sure that constant fear of co-option will set us back tenfold, if we pick up our toys and leave.

I don't operate out of fear. I don't "fear" co-option. That is not my issue.

[Carlybee]

I've always said: If you can't be um - infiltrate.

Maybe that is the strategy. Maybe, Rand and his supporters will be able to accomplish that. I pray for it. But my gut tells me it's too late for that kind of strategy. The electoral process is corrupt to its very core. The new system that they intend to collapse the old one into is well on its way.

And you never get something for nothing. If Rand plans a run banking on building coalitions within the corrupt party, what does he have to promise? Not sure how one defeats the status quo by bargaining with the status quo. Anyway that's all I have for now.

[July]

I don't operate out of fear. I don't "fear" co-option. That is not my issue.

I didn't mean you personally, but just in general, since there is so much infighting about it. People either fear co-option by the system, or else they become so disgusted by it, they leave...

[Occam's Banana]

I'm suggesting that yes, some allies will be co-opted and fall. It will happen. But fear will only lead to apathy and inaction...

The problem, in my opinion, is not that co-option is irresistible to all people, it is that those who are strong and independent minded enough to resist, tend very often to reject power and will not involve themselves. What made Ron Paul so unusual, IMO, was not that he was a free thinker...though he was. It was that being a free thinker, he inserted himself in the thick of things anyway.

Sure, I'm skeptical there will ever be a liberty minded president in my lifetime. But I'm also pretty sure that constant fear of co-option will set us back tenfold, if we pick up our toys and leave.

Exactly. Politics is an alligator-infested sewer system - and you can't fight the alligators in the sewers unless someone is willing to climb down into the sewers to fight them.

Fighting sewer 'gators will inevitably produce certain outcomes [good, bad & ugly]:
- some alligator-fighters will be gobbled up & defeated [ugly]
- some alligator-fighters will become alligators themselves [bad]
- some alligator-fighters will actually slay some alligators [good]

Refusing to climb down into the sewers may keep you clean & spotless - and it will eliminate the risk of being co-opted - but it also pretty much eliminates any chances of actually slaying some alligators.

[July]

Exactly. Politics is an alligator-infested sewer system - and you can't fight the alligators in the sewers unless someone is willing to climb down into the sewers to fight them.

Fighting sewer 'gators will inevitably produce certain outcomes [good, bad & ugly]:
- some alligator-fighters will be gobbled up & defeated [ugly]
- some alligator-fighters will become alligators themselves [bad]
- some alligator-fighters will actually slay some alligators [good]

Refusing to climb down into the sewers may keep you clean & spotless - and it will eliminate the risk of being co-opted - but it also pretty much eliminates any chances of actually slaying some alligators.

+rep

Good analogy.

[Deborah K]

Exactly. Politics is an alligator-infested sewer system - and you can't fight the alligators in the sewers unless someone is willing to climb down into the sewers to fight them.

Fighting sewer 'gators will inevitably produce certain outcomes [good, bad & ugly]:
- some alligator-fighters will be gobbled up & defeated [ugly]
- some alligator-fighters will become alligators themselves [bad]
- some alligator-fighters will actually slay some alligators [good]

Refusing to climb down into the sewers may keep you clean & spotless - and it will eliminate the risk of being co-opted - but it also pretty much eliminates any chances of actually slaying some alligators.




Personally, using this analogy, I'd prefer to just shoot them, eat their meat, and make baggage out their skins. LOL.

[Carlybee]

Exactly. Politics is an alligator-infested sewer system - and you can't fight the alligators in the sewers unless someone is willing to climb down into the sewers to fight them.

Fighting sewer 'gators will inevitably produce certain outcomes [good, bad & ugly]:
- some alligator-fighters will be gobbled up & defeated [ugly]
- some alligator-fighters will become alligators themselves [bad]
- some alligator-fighters will actually slay some alligators [good]

Refusing to climb down into the sewers may keep you clean & spotless - and it will eliminate the risk of being co-opted - but it also pretty much eliminates any chances of actually slaying some alligators.

Or just put a sewer snake down there outfitted with a few grenades. Just don't be in the vicinity when it blows.

[TheGrinch]

Does this article seem to anyone else like a bunch of BS media spin that they could build after Benton's hiring? Is anything else in this article actually substantiated besides them ahving a "good working relationship"?

Seems like the Ron/Romney speculation all over again, where they're claiming back-door deal conspiracy theories with nothing but pure speculation to draw upon.

[FSP-Rebel]

Years ago when Rand was seeking election to the Senate I could tell he didn't operate in the extremely truthful and transparent way that Ron did. This is what I liked about him is that he wasn't following his dad lock-step and riding his coattails as is sometimes the case in similar situations. He took his own approach by analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of his dad's tenure and adjusting himself into more of a constitutional conservative that hustles libertarian ideas in a way that doesn't exude "quixotic" labeling in the media and the GOP. I've also noticed that he's also chosen his words carefully and that is a very fine craft that can be the difference between success and failure, so this political gamesmanship doesn't worry me in the least.

[TheGrinch]

Years ago when Rand was seeking election to the Senate I could tell he didn't operate in the extremely truthful and transparent way that Ron did. This is what I liked about him is that he wasn't following his dad lock-step and riding his coattails as is sometimes the case in similar situations. He took his own approach by analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of his dad's tenure and adjusting himself into more of a constitutional conservative that hustles libertarian ideas in a way that doesn't exude "quixotic" labeling in the media and the GOP. I've also noticed that he's also chosen his words carefully and that is a very fine craft that can be the difference between success and failure, so this political gamesmanship doesn't worry me in the least.
Exactly, it's one thing if he's selling out for money and power, it's a completely different thing if he's "selling out" to better fight for liberty.

Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures, and we're too deep into this mess to let our disagreements about the best route get in the way of us collectively fighting for what's right, the best ways we know how.

And if I'm wrong, then time will tell if I need to reconsider my benefit of the doubt that Rand has earned from me at this point.

[cajuncocoa]

Years ago when Rand was seeking election to the Senate I could tell he didn't operate in the extremely truthful and transparent way that Ron did. This is what I liked about him is that he wasn't following his dad lock-step and riding his coattails as is sometimes the case in similar situations. He took his own approach by analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of his dad's tenure and adjusting himself into more of a constitutional conservative that hustles libertarian ideas in a way that doesn't exude "quixotic" labeling in the media and the GOP. I've also noticed that he's also chosen his words carefully and that is a very fine craft that can be the difference between success and failure, so this political gamesmanship doesn't worry me in the least.Sure don't need any more extreme truthfulness and transparency in elected officials...damn, if only they would be more conniving and obtuse, then we'd really start to fix this mess!! :rolleyes:

[Deborah K]

Sure don't need any more extreme truthfulness and transparency in elected officials...damn, if only they would be more conniving and obtuse, then we'd really start to fix this mess!! :rolleyes:

+rep!

[Brett85]

Well guess I may be off this forum because I will not support Rand if he supports McConnell. The man who voted to extend the Patriot Act, wiretapping of citizens, etc. No way, no how.

If you don't stand for something, you don't stand for anything.

Of course he's going to support his colleague in 2014 against a liberal Democrat opponent. What else would you expect?

[TheGrinch]

Sure don't need any more extreme truthfulness and transparency in elected officials...damn, if only they would be more conniving and obtuse, then we'd really start to fix this mess!! :rolleyes:
Were our "stealth" delegates completely transparent about things that would be used against them, or did they play the game to get themselves in a position where they could make a difference?

Has Rand not been transparent in giving us the reasons why he felt he had to make the Romney endorsement?

Do we even know if his "support" for McConnell is anything more than being cordial with someone he disagrees with, but is affiliated by party with?

We do not have the numbers yet to jsut say my way or the highway, and I don't care if it's simply because of public pressure that forces McConnell to make concessions we're demanding.

I will not support pandering, but I will always support those trying to enact change, even if that means you have to get your hands a little dirty. It's not like he's taking money from lobbyists and abandoning the issues that matter to us. Quite the opposite.

There is a marked difference bettwen those who might have to be less than honest to fight for jsut causes, and those who might appear genuine but be completely corrupt.

Time will tell how much Rand is fighting for us, so people just let this all play out before we start hurling each other under the bus.

[Deborah K]

Were our "stealth" delegates completely transparent about things that would be used against them, or did they play the game to get themselves in a position where they could make a difference?

Has Rand not been transparent in giving us the reasons why he felt he had to make the Romney endorsement?

Do we even know if his "support" for McConnell is anything more than being cordial with someone he disagrees with, but is affiliated by party with?

We do not have the numbers yet to jsut say my way or the highway, and I don't care if it's simply because of public pressure that forces McConnell to make concessions we're demanding.

I will not support pandering, but I will always support those trying to enact change, even if that means you have to get your hands a little dirty. It's not like he's taking money from lobbyists and abandoning the issues that matter to us. Quite the opposite.

There is a marked difference bettwen those who might have to be less than honest to fight for jsut causes, and those who might appear genuine but be completely corrupt.

Time will tell how much Rand is fighting for us, so people just let this all play out before we start hurling each other under the bus.

Actually, I think the point was more about defending Ron's position. The point being, that he's never had to compromise his principles to get where he is.

[TheGrinch]

Actually, I think the point was more about defending Ron's position. The point being, that he's never had to compromise his principles to get where he is.
And it was very necessary for him to remain pure as he built what we see today.

However, where Ron Paul succeeded, he was also alienated by his entire party (not his fault, but it is what it is) and never able to pass legislation, that we're now gaining momentum to actually be able to pass, with those who aren't allowing them to attach damaging stigmas and are garnering more influence within the party among the non-corrupt, as Ron's changes are increasingly being demanded.

IMO, Ron laid the groundwork, but there is more to be done to take control of the party and policy.

[Deborah K]

And it was very necessary for him to remain pure as he built what we see today.

However, where Ron Paul succeeded, he was also alienated by his entire party (not his fault, but it is what it is) and never able to pass legislation, that we're now gaining momentum to actually be able to pass, with those who aren't allowing them to attach damaging stigmas and are garnering more influence within the party among the non-corrupt, as Ron's changes are increasingly being demanded.

IMO, Ron laid the groundwork, but there is more to be done to take control of the party and policy.

I personally think it's too late for that. We didn't succeed in making enough inroads in time. I won't put any more effort into that strategy. I'm moving on to other strategies that will serve the movement a lot better, given that time is running out.

[TheGrinch]

I personally think it's too late for that. We didn't succeed in making enough inroads in time. I won't put any more effort into that strategy. I'm moving on to other strategies that will serve the movement a lot better, given that time is running out.
Perhaps you may end up being right, and I do applaud you for all you've done and continue to do, whatever that may be. Please let me know if there's anything we can do to help.

But I don't care if your an an-cap, a conservative republican, a libertarian, democrat, truther, even a racist, or what method you think is most likely to bring success. I will support anyone who is fighting for our causes in what they feel is the best way they can, until they show me otherwise that they're not worthy of my trust.

Even if our methods differ, we're all fighting for the same thing: liberty. As Dr. Paul has said, freedom is popular, and should be the thing that unites us. We cannot let ourselves be divided by differences in opinion of tactics. This is and will always be an uphill battle against corrupt and powerful interests.

[Deborah K]

Perhaps you may end up being right, and I do applaud you for all you've done and continue to do, whatever that may be. Please let me know if there's anything we can do to help.

But I don't care if your an an-cap, a conservative republican, a libertarian, democrat, truther, even a racist, or what method you think is most likely to bring success. I will support anyone who is fighting for our causes in what they feel is the best way they can, until they show me otherwise that they're not worthy of my trust.

Even if our methods differ, we're all fighting for the same thing: liberty. As Dr. Paul has said, freedom is popular, and should be the thing that unites us. We cannot let ourselves be divided by differences in opinion of tactics. This is and will always be an uphill battle against corrupt and powerful interests.

Thanks, and I agree with you. My proposal for change can be found here, btw.: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?389704-Pick-one-issue&p=4641568#post4641568

[Bastiat's The Law]

On the otherhand, if Rand wants to be a serious presidential candidate, working with Mitch is how its played.
Precisely. Picking a fight with McConnell would has disaster written all over it.

[CaptLouAlbano]

Precisely. Picking a fight with McConnell would has disaster written all over it.

Right. You fight the leadership by becoming the leadership. As I see it, the soonest we could get enough Senators in office that would support Rand or someone similar for leadership would be 2016, and that is being optimistic. More realistic would be 2020.

[cajuncocoa]

Some here are more concerned with politics than preserving liberty....sad.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Right. You fight the leadership by becoming the leadership. As I see it, the soonest we could get enough Senators in office that would support Rand or someone similar for leadership would be 2016, and that is being optimistic. More realistic would be 2020.
Rand is an enormous power-broker in Kentucky because he played the game well. McConnel isn't stupid either, he knows which way the wind is blowing.

[Carlybee]

You have to wonder if all these people sticking up for McConnell are GOP plants. Good Lord.

[TheGrinch]

Some here are more concerned with politics than preserving liberty....sad.
That is a completely unfair characterization (with the possible, okay likely exception of CaptLou). I wouldn't advocate playing politics if the goal wasn't to advance the cause of liberty and continue to bring it into the public discourse.

I've been where you are, jsut saying F-you to the establishment, that I won't take part in their game. I went to school studying media and politics. Guess which of those fields I've been in for the last 6 years, prior to joining this campaign this year. Neither, I had too much integrity once I saw the beast I would be feeding, and that I would never be allowed to actually speak my mind if I wanted to get anywhere.

But you know what, jadedness and apathy solve absolutely nothing. They'd love it if we just all went away back to the fringe. But they're cheating because they view us a very real threat to their gravy train, as they should.

That doesn't mean that the republican route is necessarily the right route, it may be merely a stepping stone for third parties to gain viability, but jsut stop demonizing people who are trying whatever they can to stop these evil bastards and save our country before it's too late.

[TheGrinch]

You have to wonder if all these people sticking up for McConnell are GOP plants. Good Lord.
Point to me who has stuck up for McConnell here.

You and CC need to just stop with this hateful hyperbole.

[Carlybee]

Point to me who has stuck up for McConnell here.

You and CC need to just stop with this hateful hyperbole.

LOL. Truth hurt much? Saying that pandering to McConnell is the same thing as sticking up for him IMO. The man needs to go.

[Carlybee]

The point is.... sometimes you have to work with people you disagree with. More so when you need their people to get yours elected.

I understand working with people you disagree with but working with someone who is so diametrically opposite on important liberty issues. I had high hopes that the RP Revolution was going to bring a change from doing politics as usual but it just seems like more of the same to me.

[TheGrinch]

LOL. Truth hurt much? Saying that pandering to McConnell is the same thing as sticking up for him IMO. The man needs to go.
Who is saying either of those things?

I just don't follow how you get to these bold conclusions you always jump to. This isn't the first tiem you've called me a plant for merely giving people (Rand) the benefit of the doubt until his voting record and things far more important than loose afilliations and possibly fabrications by the media, are what changes.

Rather, I think it's pretty clear who has the agenda here. I've always been open-minded and willing to consider, and I wish I could say the same about you two

[Carlybee]

Sure don't need any more extreme truthfulness and transparency in elected officials...damn, if only they would be more conniving and obtuse, then we'd really start to fix this mess!! :rolleyes:


Owe you a +rep

[cajuncocoa]

Point to me who has stuck up for McConnell here.

You and CC need to just stop with this hateful hyperbole.Truth hurt much? Maybe "stuck up for McConnell" is the wrong choice of words, but there sure are 4 or 5 here (in another thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?389757-Mitch-McConnell-hires-Jesse-Benton-to-run-his-2014-re-election-bid)) who think Jesse's move to McConnell's campaign will be a boost for the cause of liberty. Insane.

[TheGrinch]

Truth hurt much?

LOL, no....

4 or 5 people in a 37 page thread who think Jesse will sabotage his campaign are not representative of anything, and is pure hyperbole against those giving Rand the benefit of the doubt here.

[Carlybee]

Who is saying either of those things?

I just don't follow how you get to these bold conclusions you always jump to. This isn't the first tiem you've called me a plant for merely giving people (Rand) the benefit of the doubt until his voting record and things far more important than loose afilliations and possibly fabrications by the media, are what changes.

Rather, I think it's pretty clear who has the agenda here. I've always been open-minded and willing to consider, and I wish I could say the same about you two


Where did I call YOU a plant? Where did I single anyone out? And there are several threads going on the forum dealing with McConnell so it is hard to keep them all straight but yes there are people on here encouraging pandering to McConnell and some defending Jesse Benton. And I didn't say anything about Rand other than I can't believe he is hooking up with McConnell for political gain. I find it disgusting because I find McConnell's positions disgusting, but then I am not a political whore like some people.

[Occam's Banana]

Some here are more concerned with politics than preserving liberty....sad.

Some here are more concerned about self-righteously whinging about what other people are concerned about ... sad. And pointless.


That is a completely unfair characterization (with the possible, okay likely exception of CaptLou).

It's completely unfair to Cap'n Lou, as well.

[cajuncocoa]

Point to me who has stuck up for McConnell here.

You and CC need to just stop with this hateful hyperbole.Here ya go:


I probably won't vote for Romney, but it's a really tough choice for me. I certainly don't criticize those who are going to vote for Romney. I would vote for Mitch McConnell in a general election if I lived in Kentucky, because a Senate race isn't as important as the Presidency. A Senator doesn't have the power to take our country to war.

[cajuncocoa]

Some here are more concerned about self-righteously whinging about what other people are concerned about ... sad. And pointless.



It's completely unfair to Cap'n Lou, as well."whinging"??? please define.

[Occam's Banana]

"whinging"??? please define.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whinging


whinge
intr.v. whinged, whing·ing, whing·es
To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

[TheGrinch]

Where did I call YOU a plant? Where did I single anyone out? And there are several threads going on the forum dealing with McConnell so it is hard to keep them all straight but yes there are people on here encouraging pandering to McConnell and some defending Jesse Benton. And I didn't say anything about Rand other than I can't believe he is hooking up with McConnell for political gain. I find it disgusting because I find McConnell's positions disgusting, but then I am not a political whore like some people.

From my wall from you the last time I told you to give it a rest about throwing a fit:


Don't tell me to give it a rest. I owe you a neg rep. Are you some kind of neocon operative? I think you are.

Please explain how we are pissing all over your work by voicing an opinion? When a moderator tells me to leave I will. Until then I shall continue to call people out when I see they are being dishonest about being for a liberty agenda. If you don't like it..well..I really could care less.

So pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with you is being intellectually dishonest, if I understand correctly. As I said above, we can disagree and still fight for the same things. You two just seem to want to fight anyone that you deem "unpure" for even engaging in the political process.

Anyways, I'm not getting into this again and ruining the thread. Have a nice day.

[TheGrinch]

Here ya go:
Then quote the person you're talking about. Don't start hyperbolizing and painting things a certain way.

Forgive me for assuming you were lumping people in with as tiny minority's opinion and then calling their integrity into question, as you've both done many times.

[Carlybee]

From my wall from you the last time I told you to give it a rest about throwing a fit:



So pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with you is being intellectually dishonest, if I understand correctly. As I said above, we can disagree and still fight for the same things. You two just seem to want to fight anyone that you deem "unpure" for even engaging in the political process.

Anyways, I'm not getting into this again and ruining the thread. Have a nice day.

Oh that was mature posting a private message that had nothing whatsoever to do with this thread or your most recent accusation. I see some are willing to dish it out but sure don't want anyone else doing it and God forbid someone speak the truth around here because that makes people all squirmy.

[cajuncocoa]

Then quote the person you're talking about. Don't start hyperbolizing and painting things a certain way.

Forgive me for assuming you were lumping people in with as tiny minority's opinion and then calling their integrity into question, as you've both done many times. the original post that got your shorts twisted:



Some here are more concerned with politics than preserving liberty....sad.

1. Learn the definition of "some"
2. If "some" doesn't include you, move on.

[Bastiat's The Law]

You have to wonder if all these people sticking up for McConnell are GOP plants. Good Lord.
Your tinfoil hat is on too tight.

[TheGrinch]

the original post that got your shorts twisted:




1. Learn the definition of "some"
2. If "some" doesn't include you, move on.
Then how bout you stop making collectivist generalizations, and put up or shut up if you believe that someone is more interested in politics than liberty. Even though I disagree with TC's over-friendly attitude towards those who treat us like crap, even he hasn't shown me indication that he's not here for liberty, (even if we might vehemently disagree on how to achieve it)... And that's pretty much the only person in the thread even implying their support for politics over liberty. The rest are arguing politics to achieve liberty, and that is certainly noble and debateable, not something to demonize and divide over.

And you know as well as I do that this isn't some isolated incident. You and Carly are always like sharks in the water, just waiting for something you can use to divide (innocent or not). I really have to wonder about your intentions, when I've even asked you to offer what you think we should do, and you had no answer. To me that means you're pissing on our efforts without offering another solution, and contributing nothing but divisiveness, and yes that pisses me off, no matter whether your unfair generalizations are aimed at me or others here.

But I'm done with this. I don't think many here are buying your "your a sell-out if you even engage in politics for the right reasons" schtick.

[cajuncocoa]

Your tinfoil hat is on too tight.Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals (http://www.bestofbeck.com/wp/activism/saul-alinskys-12-rules-for-radicals), #5:


* RULE 5: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.

You can quit now...it won't work.

[TheGrinch]

Your tinfoil hat is on too tight.
Careful. I was on your side, but see what happens if you start flinging insults

[TheGrinch]

Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals (http://www.bestofbeck.com/wp/activism/saul-alinskys-12-rules-for-radicals), #5:



You can quit now...it won't work.
Same goes to you. It kind of disturbs me that you know a rulebook for causing a disruption

[cajuncocoa]

Same goes to you. It kind of disturbs me that you know a rulebook for causing a disruptionBecause the only way one can know such things is to be a troublemaker, right? :rolleyes:

I used to listen to Glenn Beck...not proud of that, but it is what it is.

[cajuncocoa]

Then how bout you stop making collectivist generalizations, and put up or shut up if you believe that someone is more interested in politics than liberty. I have put up, and in spite of GOP apologists' wishes, I won't shut up.

I'm not here for politics; I was, but Ron Paul's campaign is over (and this IS the Ron Paul Forum, not Rand's and certainly NOT McConnell's)

I'm here to advance the cause of liberty, not encourage those who want to compromise it.

[Jamesiv1]

By MANU RAJU | 9/13/12 7:10 PM EDT
They are methodically forming a tight-knit alliance to bridge the divide between the sparring factions of their party... heading off an intraparty war that has uprooted Republican politics in many parts of the country.

Anyone but die-hard purists can see that this is a good thing. Smart politics, win-win, etc. <--- serious

If you disagree then you are no lover of liberty. <--- comedy

[William R]

There's really nothing odd about it . Rand is playing for the future. If Romney loses Rand is going to run for President in 2016 . Why not have an old establishment bull like McConnell on your side. Rand is a much better politician than his father.

[cajuncocoa]

Anyone but die-hard purists can see that this is a good thing. Smart politics, win-win, etc.

If you disagree, then you sir, are no lover of liberty.I am not a sir, and I strongly disagree with you. I guess that makes me a (female) die-hard purist. But I could have told you that.

[FSP-Rebel]

I have put up, and in spite of GOP apologists' wishes, I won't shut up.

Right, you're making a career out of driving Paul supporters away from Ron's GOP restoration plan, no less in Rand's forum. Swell

[cajuncocoa]

Right, you're making a career out of driving Paul supporters away from Ron's GOP restoration plan, no less in Rand's forum. SwellAnd yet all of you are still here. Amazing! Must be because that's not my intention. :rolleyes:

Perhaps we should set up a "Mitch McConnell" subforum and move this topic there. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Michigan11]

I have put up, and in spite of GOP apologists' wishes, I won't shut up.

I'm not here for politics; I was, but Ron Paul's campaign is over (and this IS the Ron Paul Forum, not Rand's and certainly NOT McConnell's)

I'm here to advance the cause of liberty, not encourage those who want to compromise it.

Are you here to what? Lessen the impact of our ideology or increase it?

[Jamesiv1]

Anyone who continues to post in this thread is no lover of liberty.

[TheGrinch]

Oh that was mature posting a private message that had nothing whatsoever to do with this thread or your most recent accusation. I see some are willing to dish it out but sure don't want anyone else doing it and God forbid someone speak the truth around here because that makes people all squirmy.
Was on my wall that anyone can see, and you asked. Man, you guys are just getting sad with these gotcha attempts.

I'll leave you alone but its pretty clear you don't support anything that's being done here, including Dr. Pauls plans, so I'm not sure why you're here other than to continue to stir the pot and divide.

[Occam's Banana]

And yet all of you are still here. Amazing! Must be because that's not my intention. :rolleyes:

That is what is called a non sequitur.


Perhaps we should set up a "Mitch McConnell" subforum and move this topic there. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And so is that.

[fr33]

You have to wonder if all these people sticking up for McConnell are GOP plants. Good Lord.I have to wonder why you value endorsement more than voting records. I have to wonder why you ever supported Ron Paul while he endorsed people just as bad as McConnell. I have to wonder why you are obviously lying by claiming most here support McConnell when that is not even true.

[Matt Collins]

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that perhaps Jesse is setting up a 2016 Presidential run for Rand and is using Mitch to do it? Having the Senate Majority Leader backing your candidate is very powerful... just a thought..

[cajuncocoa]

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that perhaps Jesse is setting up a 2016 Presidential run for Rand and is using Mitch to do it? Having the Senate Majority Leader backing your candidate is very powerful... just a thought..Are you going to spam this in every thread? :rolleyes:

[Matt Collins]

Are you going to spam this in every thread? :rolleyes:Only where it's relevant.

[Aratus]

Matt ---- that Libertychat posting rumor "thingie' done up by their admin person on September 14th
suggested that Jesse walked out with at least three donor lists. Is ole Mitch McConnell about ready
to hand the Mittsters more up to date lists like the ones Rand got from Dr. Ron a nice distance into
his senate run? If you thought the reaction of Rand's FB people was a tad intense when about 3000
of the Alex Jones fans leaped off the page over the flapup, can any rEVOLUTIOn candidate get any
donations from those lists if Mitt media blitzes everyone? Folks will simply just automatically deleat
any and all emails asking for funds. Its like the reaction of the state of California to Meg Whitman's
media monolith of soliticitations and ads. Can we say HYPER~spammed? The well running 98% dry?
The small trickle of money to folks Mitch McConnell likes will skunk more legitimate rEVOLUTIOn folk
if the LIBERTYCHAT ADMIN sourced net~rumor is anyway true! Jesse's brain is about to be plucked.
He has a learning curve & is not stupid, and he was very much a part of Rand's KY victory in 2010.

[AuH20]

I really don't like Mitch. But Mitch has key connections that can fund a future presidential campaign.

[cajuncocoa]

I really don't like Mitch. But Mitch has key connections that can fund a future presidential campaign.Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

[LibertyEagle]

Oh that was mature posting a private message that had nothing whatsoever to do with this thread or your most recent accusation. I see some are willing to dish it out but sure don't want anyone else doing it and God forbid someone speak the truth around here because that makes people all squirmy.

You posted it as a Visitor Message. Those are not private.

[Jamesiv1]

Personally, using this analogy, I'd prefer to just shoot them, eat their meat, and make baggage out their skins. LOL.

Your guns were confiscated, McDonald's will sue you for infringement on their meat patent, and PETA will throw red paint all over you *and* your baggage :)

[CaptainAmerica]

http://animationreview.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-pied-piper-c2a9-walt-disney.jpg

This pretty much sums up my honest thoughts about playing the game.

[Matt Collins]

I really don't like Mitch. But Mitch has key connections that can fund a future presidential campaign.Bingo!

And guess what, Jesse will have all of his lists, contacts, and fundraising access.

[Aratus]

Matt, if Jesse walked with Ron's lists, who does he hope is ahhhhh hiring when he walks with Mitch's lists in a few years?

[TheGrinch]

Matt ---- that Libertychat posting rumor "thingie' done up by their admin person on September 14th
suggested that Jesse walked out with at least three donor lists. Is ole Mitch McConnell about ready
to hand the Mittsters more up to date lists like the ones Rand got from Dr. Ron a nice distance into
his senate run? If you thought the reaction of Rand's FB people was a tad intense when about 3000
of the Alex Jones fans leaped off the page over the flapup, can any rEVOLUTIOn candidate get any
donations from those lists if Mitt media blitzes everyone? Folks will simply just automatically deleat
any and all emails asking for funds. Its like the reaction of the state of California to Meg Whitman's
media monolith of soliticitations and ads. Can we say HYPER~spammed? The well running 98% dry?
The small trickle of money to folks Mitch McConnell likes will skunk more legitimate rEVOLUTIOn folk
if the LIBERTYCHAT ADMIN sourced net~rumor is anyway true! Jesse's brain is about to be plucked.
He has a learning curve & is not stupid, and he was very much a part of Rand's KY victory in 2010.
I was under the impression that donor lists were public knowledge (for good reason), and also that by registering republican that was too for the party.

Unless I'm incorrect in those assumptions, then all of these accusations that they're selling our lists to Romney seems a baseless accusation.

[Carlybee]

Bingo!

And guess what, Jesse will have all of his lists, contacts, and fundraising access.

Plus the ones he took with him from C4L?

[CaptLouAlbano]

I was under the impression that donor lists were public knowledge (for good reason), and also that by registering republican that was too for the party.

Unless I'm incorrect in those assumptions, then all of these accusations that they're selling our lists to Romney seems a baseless accusation.

I know the donor lists are on the FEC site and opensecrets uses the data as well, so I think you are right that the info is public, as are voter registration lists.