Kokesh debates the Amazing Atheist

[seyferjm]

Did anyone on here catch this debate?

[Vessol]

Just found the video, watching it now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hHvX1k6FRM

Should be pretty good, Adam is a good debater I find. Though I still think it would be absolutely hilarious to see the Amazing Atheist try to debate Stefan Molyneux. Jack Hunter was good, but eh.

[seyferjm]

I'll need a summary when somebody watches all of it, I cannot stand TAA for any time period exceeding .1 seconds, he grates my nerves

[RonRules]

I'll need a summary when somebody watches all of it, I cannot stand TAA for any time period exceeding .1 seconds, he grates my nerves

I hate him too and we share the same "religion".

[ninepointfive]

I'll need a summary when somebody watches all of it, I cannot stand TAA for any time period exceeding .1 seconds, he grates my nerves

38 minutes in - it's going okay - moreover what's going on is you can tell Athiest is speaking more, won't let adam really finish what he's saying - and the moderator leans towards athiest's side, as he explains to adam what he thinks athiest is saying and meaning.

Adam is being cordial and Athiest is kinda rude.

[Vessol]

I'll need a summary when somebody watches all of it, I cannot stand TAA for any time period exceeding .1 seconds, he grates my nerves

Just TJ being rude, interrupting, making fallacies and using bad historical examples. The norm. It's what made him popular.

Adam is handling himself very well and politely.

[fr33]

Just TJ being rude, interrupting, making fallacies and using bad historical examples. The norm. It's what made him popular.

Adam is handling himself very well and politely.I'm 11 minutes in and I agree with you. Amazing Atheist is a rude person. Adam is doing better so far than Jack Hunter did. You have to speak up and interrupt him like he does you.

[mczerone]

Moderator looks like Patton Oswald and Drew Carey had a child.

Withholding judgement about TAA's appearance and demeanor, I will only comment on the intellectual arguments.

Question 1: Afghanistan, wars:
Kokesh: Lines on maps don't make things philosophically different. The govt isn't above moral rules of individuals. "War is a Racket"
Host: "Isolationist?"
Kokesh: NO, I'm a non-interventionist, the govt and its controls are the isolationists because they limit free trade between individuals
TAA: Excuses performance due to illness. Then chides Kokesh for using the "meme" of coercion, prefers a "pragmatic" approach. Doesn't like wars on ideas (e.g. drugs, hatred, etc), but "we need to be pragmatic against terrorism."

Kokesh: so lets hit the philosophy
TAA: But you say it's about "size" of govt. It's not size, because slave-owners weren't as big as govt.
Kokesh: It's not size, it's the nature of govt.
TAA: It's not size, it's the nature of violence. If we got rid of govt, there would still be bad people. How would we have gotten rid of slavery w/o govt?!?
Kokesh: It's about de-institutionalizing the violence.
Host/TAA: Well, how do we get from here to there?!?

Kokesh: It's not about a specific plan, it's about getting rid of institutionalized violence. It's the same as asking "who'll pick all the cotton?"

TAA: How do we get authority to punish muderers? How do we get people to change their minds about welfare and roads and crap? Rants and raves

Kokesh tries to explain.

TAA interrupts: libertarians want corporations to enslave workers! Ron Paul said that a molested woman on the job should just quit! Child Labor! Industrial revolution was bad without rules!

Kokesh: tries to explain

TAA interrupts: Govt creates ORDER! Your Jefferson Memorial dance was stupid!

Kokesh: It was a protest against a Judge's order that wasn't meant to necessarily get anyone arrested.

I can't keep going. TAA just rants and doesn't listen. He and the host just come back to "How" and "Govt is Good"

[mczerone]

I'm 11 minutes in and I agree with you. Amazing Atheist is a rude person. Adam is doing better so far than Jack Hunter did. You have to speak up and interrupt him like he does you.

No, I think the best tactic is to let TAA be a dick and to stay back and politely explain you side. Everyone sees that TAA is a dick.

[green73]

I hate him too and we share the same "religion".

Statism?

[mczerone]

Overall summary: Kokesh's arguments weren't what I would have presented, but he did a good job for constantly being on the defensive.

[green73]

Would love to see Murphy or Woods debate this guy. Adam's a relative neophyte to all this. He seems really weak on history. It's like the bulk of his learning has come from watching Molyneux videos.

[fr33]

Would love to see Murphy or Woods debate this guy. Adam's a relative neophyte to all this. He seems really weak on history. It's like the bulk of his learning has come from watching Molyneux videos.I agree. Adam is strong on philosophy. Someone like Woods also has that plus history.

[matt0611]

Would love to see Murphy or Woods debate this guy. Adam's a relative neophyte to all this. He seems really weak on history. It's like the bulk of his learning has come from watching Molyneux videos.

Yeah, Adam did pretty great for a relative layperson. Someone like Woods who has been doing this for decades would absolutely destroy TAA.

I think its pretty insulting for a guy like Woods to even debate a jerk like TAA though.

[Sola_Fide]

I had to turn it off. The Amazing Atheist had no arguments, only a bunch of ignorant complaints...and Adam presented things differently than I would.

On top of that, it was two self-proclaimed atheists making moral arguments left and right like their worldview supports them making universal moral pronouncements. Not philosophically or logically satisfying...

[mczerone]

Would love to see Murphy or Woods debate this guy. Adam's a relative neophyte to all this. He seems really weak on history. It's like the bulk of his learning has come from watching Molyneux videos.

Yeah, there were a couple of points in there that I wanted to interrupt TAA and tell him that his view of history is just propagandized crap, and that there were market forces working to root out the problems long before govt intervened, if the govt wasn't the root of the problem in the first place.

It was really funny listening to the host ask "How would you get rid of Jim Crow Laws if there wasn't a govt?"

Overall this was a good video to watch because it encapsulated all the arguments against libertarianism from a typical leftist.

[ClydeCoulter]

I have to give Kokesh a 4 stars out of 5, I believe he taught TAA a lesson. Yea, he could have done better at times, but he recovered well at around the 40-50 minute mark. TAA had to give him space then, and found out he did not know Kokesh as well as he thought.

[BamaAla]

Adam should just beat him up; that I would watch.

[ClydeCoulter]

Adam should just beat him up; that I would watch.

Nah, that's not the answer. I have debated a$$holes before (not saying that TAA is one) and you just keep your kool and use logic. Otherwise, it's just who was born with the genes to be larger and/or faster. That's one of the differences between mankind and animals. In the animal world it's brawn and instinct.

Int the end, I think TAA will have to think a bit. He wasn't completely wrong. He just needs to find the end of the various roads before seeing the better road. Maybe Kokesh does too, somewhat. We all do.

There is slag that comes to the top when smelting, it's needs to be scooped off.

There is a good way ahead of us. We have to care enough to find it. Let's keep at it. It is worth it. Don't you think?

edit: one thing that I see out in the wild, is that, animals are begining to respond to our movements.

[juleswin]

I watched some of the debate and all in all, it was a good try on Adam's part. One part I think he failed in his reply was when TJ made the arguement that without govt, we will still be having child labor and bad work place safety. Adam replied by trying to blame child labor and bad work place safety of govt and corporatism. My experience is that both ban on child labor and improved work place safety is a result of advances in technology and a prosperous society and not the result of govt regulation.

I know communities in Africa where people will starve if you dared ban child labor, people are very poor and just lack the necessary technology and resources to make up the labor that will be lost if child labor (not talking about back breaking jobs, just planting/harvesting, animal rearing type labor) were taken out of the equation. I know you can argue the reason those communities are poor in the first place is because govt corruption and stealing of their resources but I dont think that has always been the case throughout the history of the US.

I will try and email this point to him if I can because it was so frustrating seeing him struggle a bit on this question

[DamianTV]

38 minutes in - it's going okay - moreover what's going on is you can tell Athiest is speaking more, won't let adam really finish what he's saying - and the moderator leans towards athiest's side, as he explains to adam what he thinks athiest is saying and meaning.

Adam is being cordial and Athiest is kinda rude.

Athiests are pretty used to being on the defensive because many feel they are constantly being attacked, and probably have in turn, started doing the attacking. I will point out that it doesnt matter which side of the fence you stand on, when debates become that heated, it is everyones responsibility to protect the Freedom Of and From Religion for Both Sides. If we dont make a world that both can live it, we end up with a world where neither side can live in peace.

[jonhowe]

Not all atheists are statist, just for the record.
I would know, being one who isn't.

[ninepointfive]

Yeah - since Adam was respectful, any audience who sees this will know TAA to be a jerk and therefore this debate is a win.

[Tankbot85]

I hate him too and we share the same "religion".

I am an atheist as well and he is just a Douche. I used to subscribe to him on youtube but after a while i saw that he was another big government crony who uses atheism to put forth stupid ideas.

[Todd]

I couldn't listen to TAA past 8 minutes.

Adam wins.

[helmuth_hubener]

Moderator looks like Patton Oswald and Drew Carey had a child.

Withholding judgement about TAA's appearance and demeanor, I will only comment on the intellectual arguments.

Question 1: Afghanistan, wars:
Kokesh: Lines on maps don't make things philosophically different. The govt isn't above moral rules of individuals. "War is a Racket"
Host: "Isolationist?"
Kokesh: NO, I'm a non-interventionist, the govt and its controls are the isolationists because they limit free trade between individuals
TAA: Excuses performance due to illness. Then chides Kokesh for using the "meme" of coercion, prefers a "pragmatic" approach. Doesn't like wars on ideas (e.g. drugs, hatred, etc), but "we need to be pragmatic against terrorism."

Kokesh: so lets hit the philosophy
TAA: But you say it's about "size" of govt. It's not size, because slave-owners weren't as big as govt.
Kokesh: It's not size, it's the nature of govt.
TAA: It's not size, it's the nature of violence. If we got rid of govt, there would still be bad people. How would we have gotten rid of slavery w/o govt?!?
Kokesh: It's about de-institutionalizing the violence.
Host/TAA: Well, how do we get from here to there?!?

Kokesh: It's not about a specific plan, it's about getting rid of institutionalized violence. It's the same as asking "who'll pick all the cotton?"

TAA: How do we get authority to punish muderers? How do we get people to change their minds about welfare and roads and crap? Rants and raves

Kokesh tries to explain.

TAA interrupts: libertarians want corporations to enslave workers! Ron Paul said that a molested woman on the job should just quit! Child Labor! Industrial revolution was bad without rules!

Kokesh: tries to explain

TAA interrupts: Govt creates ORDER! Your Jefferson Memorial dance was stupid!

Kokesh: It was a protest against a Judge's order that wasn't meant to necessarily get anyone arrested.

I can't keep going. TAA just rants and doesn't listen. He and the host just come back to "How" and "Govt is Good" This is actually an extremely good summary of everything up to 19:43.