Why was the ruling of the Chair not fought?

[Matt Collins]

I was listening from home so to speak, but I am curious why the parliamentary procedure that allows you to appeal the ruling of the chair not used during the rules fight? :confused:

[acptulsa]

When was the last time you saw a chair with ears?

Watch the vid. Objections were shouted from the floor. They were ignored.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I guess people didn't fully understand the rules. I have this problem in my local GOP. First year on the committee and my head spins trying to figure out what the hell is going on. I think this crap is confusing on purpose.

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

Collins is no doubt more of an expert in parliamentary procedures than I am, but my understanding is that the rules were simply ignored. The Chair refused to acknowledge either Point of Order or Call for Division, as he legally should have.

[nobody's_hero]

How dare you question the mighty teleprompter!

----------[RNC Teleprompter]-----------

Matt Collins is on to us! Ron Paul Forums, go to scenario 42b, right now!

----------[/RNC Teleprompter]--------

[Travlyr]

It was scripted.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77W5OKStO5s&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77W5OKStO5s&feature=youtu.be

[wgadget]

And if the rules can't be ignored, Scenario B goes into effect: CHANGE THE RULES ON THE SPOT.

[acptulsa]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?387925-The-Republican-National-Calvinball-Tournament!

[CBC4L]

We did obtain the signatures to fight it. They ended up at the same place as the nomination papers, the shredder bin.

[Carlybee]

They were shouting point of order...the chants of USA USA USA drowned them out

[Matt Collins]

Collins is no doubt more of an expert in parliamentary procedures than I amYes, while working for Ron in Minnesota I helped turn over a ton of local Republican parties. And I also ran the war room ops for the RP Campaign during the State Convention where we completely dominated (Marianne was a delegate on the floor and couldn't be in the war room the whole time). I must admit I'm gloating and quite proud of that :D

But more importantly....



, but my understanding is that the rules were simply ignored. The Chair refused to acknowledge either Point of Order or Call for Division, as he legally should have.
Watch the vid. Objections were shouted from the floor. They were ignored.

In Robert's Rules of Order there is a procedure for this. When the Chair ignores a valid motion from the floor, a delegate is allowed to stand up and directly challenge the chair 3 times. If the Chair ignores them after the 3rd time, then the delegate is then legally allowed to take control of the convention!!! (assuming they are not being dilatory)

Now it's my understanding that the RNC was using Mason's Rules of Order instead of Robert's. I am not as familier with Mason's because it's typically only used by legislative bodies. But I have got to believe that there is a similar procedure in Mason's as there is in Robert's for dealing with an unresponsive chair?


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[angelatc]

Any delegate who tried to take control of the preceedings would have been taken out back and beaten to a pulp.

The other delegates could have walked out and held a rump convention, but the outcome would have been exactly the same.

[Matt Collins]

Any delegate who tried to take control of the preceedings would have been taken out back and beaten to a pulp..That would've strengthened our cause if our guys were following the rules as written and violence was perpetrated against them for it.

[jllundqu]

We did obtain the signatures to fight it. They ended up at the same place as the nomination papers, the shredder bin.

And the sad part is... no one really cares. Just like everything else illegal and unconstitutional.... no one cares.

[LostNFoundNTx]

The point where you knew things were going horribly wrong was failing to properly follow the rules on the "without objection, the previous question is ordered" in regards to the seating of delegates (report of the credentials committee, wayyy before the rules vote). Unlike a normal vote (majority) or moving the previous question (2/3 majority), this particular motion requires unanimous consent. On that motion, one of the delegates did object to moving the question so the proceedings should have gone to debate.

You are correct in theory that a delegate can stand in place of the chair. However, it's extremely difficult to do so when:

1. The vote to overrule the chair would need to be at least a majority of the delegates
2. The mics were disabled with the exception of the stage mic
3. Delegates were chanting USA, USA, etc.

It would take an exceptionally coordinated effort as a combination of calling the members of the delegation to order (on both sides), and then succinctly informing them that you are taking a vote regarding whether or not the point of order is well taken. All that without getting ejected from the room. Had someone known they intended to completely disregard the most obvious of motions, they could have been prepared for this by first calling the delegates to order because that would appear to be supporting the continuation of proceedings making it less likely to be cut off.

As it stands, the rules which they currently claim are the rules were not adopted by the delegates to the convention and (among other things) Ron Paul was robbed of a rightfully earned nomination. I doubt the executive committee members will attempt to do anything about any of this though.

Also, as an FYI: the opinion of the chair as to the result of a voice vote is not a ruling subject to appeal (RONR p. 259). If a member questions the result of a vote the only proper motion is division of the assembly, and if that's ignored a point of order is supposed to be allowed to correct it.

[libertyjam]

Yes, while working for Ron in Minnesota I helped turn over a ton of local Republican parties. And I also ran the war room ops for the RP Campaign during the State Convention where we completely dominated (Marianne was a delegate on the floor and couldn't be in the war room the whole time). I must admit I'm gloating and quite proud of that :D

But more importantly....




In Robert's Rules of Order there is a procedure for this. When the Chair ignores a valid motion from the floor, a delegate is allowed to stand up and directly challenge the chair 3 times. If the Chair ignores them after the 3rd time, then the delegate is then legally allowed to take control of the convention!!! (assuming they are not being dilatory)

Now it's my understanding that the RNC was using Mason's Rules of Order instead of Robert's. I am not as familier with Mason's because it's typically only used by legislative bodies. But I have got to believe that there is a similar procedure in Mason's as there is in Robert's for dealing with an unresponsive chair?


:confused:http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

The RNC would have turned into the LAGOPC!

[Matt Collins]

And the sad part is... no one really cares. Just like everything else illegal and unconstitutional.... no one cares.It's funny... Bruce Fein and I were chatting on the phone earlier today and he said essentially the same thing. If they don't care about going to war illegally or unconstitutionally, then they definitely don't care about upholding parliamentary procedure. :(

[Matt Collins]

The RNC would have turned into the LAGOPC!That's the idea, especially considering that this was being broadcast aroudn the world, the LAGOP was not.

[libertyjam]

That's the idea

I Know

[Matt Collins]

Also, as an FYI: the opinion of the chair as to the result of a voice vote is not a ruling subject to appeal (RONR p. 259). If a member questions the result of a vote the only proper motion is division of the assembly, and if that's ignored a point of order is supposed to be allowed to correct it.Is this Robert's or Mason's?

[LostNFoundNTx]

Is this Robert's or Mason's?

Robert's rules, which the RNC is supposedly under. Under the rules of the Republican party, you can only follow Mason's Manual to the extent that it does not conflict with the party bylaws, rules, and Robert's Rules. Any motion under Robert's Rules to reconcile the situation would technically be valid, though practically impossible due to intentional suppression of members in a very large room.

[Matt Collins]

Robert's rules, which the RNC is supposedly under. Under the rules of the Republican party, you can only follow Mason's Manual to the extent that it does not conflict with the party bylaws, rules, and Robert's Rules. Any motion under Robert's Rules to reconcile the situation would technically be valid, though practically impossible due to intentional suppression of members in a very large room.Thanks for your insight.

[John of Des Moines]

The meme needs to be started that John Bohner is the Nancy Pelosi of the Republican Party, comparing the two's parliamentary style as one in the same.

[Dr.3D]

Whoever has control of the microphones, apparently has control of what happens in a huge room like that one.

[Matt Collins]

The meme needs to be started that John Bohner is the Nancy Pelosi of the Republican Party, comparing the two's parliamentary style as one in the same.Ouch, that hurts, but it is accurate.

[Miss Annie]

Call me foolish...... but I am still on the edge of my seat to see if there is any legal recourse for this cheating!

[Feelgood]

Whoever has control of the microphones, apparently has control of what happens in a huge room like that one.

He who controls the spice....!

[CBC4L]

No legal recourse. In two yrs everyone needs to follow IA's lead and take over their state parties. This is the next step.

[Tiso0770]

So basically, Romney/RNC is saying "I got your Votes suckers and on National TV, Wam Bam thank you mam, now get lost"....Every State in the nation should be in an uproar. Is there a chance of a recall vote?. I noticed during the Delegates conference, @14 states did not like the way the RNC did....that's 14 states that might decide to change their votes, maybe more.

[CPUd]

They already released the balloons - I think that makes it official :)

[unklejman]

I really would have like to see all the nay voting delegates make their way to the stage and escort the chair from the stage and take a count.

[MozoVote]

It was better not to rush the stage and do anything rash that would be publicized as "See what rabble the Ron People are - they're like the Occupy crowd, infiltrating and creating a spectacle"

The establishment overplayed its hand and these videos show peaceful, rule-complying delegates getting steamrolled.

Remember the ultimate lesson from places like Nueces Texas, and Nevada, and Clark county Georgia. When this kind of rot is exposed for all to see, it sets the stage for a house cleaning later.

[unklejman]

I agree, but I still would have loved to see it. ;)

[Josalyn]

It's a shame, really.

What was the point of ever having the vote in the first place if they were just going to cheat and lie? and actually, I cannot believe that we even took a system like crowds shouting nay and aye seriously. It's a messed up way to do it, at least for crowds THAT big. We should have just called for a new change to how you vote on something like that. If I had been there I would have demanded some other way to vote against or for the rule change... but I probably woulda gone to jail.

[unklejman]

It's a shame, really.

What was the point of ever having the vote in the first place if they were just going to cheat and lie? and actually, I cannot believe that we even took a system like crowds shouting nay and aye seriously. It's a messed up way to do it, at least for crowds THAT big. We should have just called for a new change to how you vote on something like that. If I had been there I would have demanded some other way to vote against or for the rule change... but I probably woulda gone to jail.

I'd imagine it's a way to get a quick idea if there is any opposition. It would be a paint to hand out ballets and no one opposes. BUT the idea would be that if it's to close to tell, then you count.