Helping Code Pink "More Proof Ron Paul Supporters Are Not Conservative"

[FrankRep]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/08/30/us/30codepink-1/30codepink-1-blog480.jpg


h xxp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2924675/posts

New York Times
August 30, 2012



The women’s antiwar group CodePink was behind the disruption of Representative Paul D. Ryan’s speech on Wednesday night, but it was in part a product of the Romney campaign’s continuing dispute with Ron Paul supporters.

“An angry Ron Paul person was like, here, take my pass,” said Laura Mills, the 21-year-old CodePink intern who was escorted out of the Tampa Bay Times Forum after interrupting Mr. Paul’s speech.



The Ron Paul movement will experience BLOWBACK from this. Most likely Romney will be viewed as a hero for blocking out the liberal-leaning Ron Paul supporters.

Mitt Romney the hero!


=====


Watch as The Free Republic goes Crazy with this article:


Code Pink - Ron Paul alliance
h xxp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2924675/posts

[aclove]

Just more proof that to most Republicans, being "conservative" doesn't mean adherence to a coherent set of small-government principles, it just means that you hate all the correct people and groups.

[acptulsa]

Not quite.

The meme is, conservatives can't despise pointless, aggressive, imperalistic war. Of course, we can. But you don't have a megaphone or a hearing aid strong enough to get Rush to hear it.

[Sola_Fide]

This is not proof that Ron Paul supporters aren't conservative like Ron. I can think of much better examples than this.

[acptulsa]

There have been bipartisan efforts on behalf of war. But, apparently, there can't be bipartisan efforts on behalf of peace.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Let's ask Paul Ryan about his racist news letters.

[mczerone]

Just more proof that to most Republicans, being "conservative" doesn't mean adherence to a coherent set of small-government principles, it just means that you hate all the correct people and groups.

Exactly. Being "Conservative" means that you've had lunch with a Reagan offspring, attended a gala with a Bush, and wouldn't help an elderly Obama voter across the street. It's a sickening group think that is, IMO, what makes it worse than "Progressivism," because they are at least willing to put labels aside and talk ideas.

[jmdrake]

Yeah. Let's funnel more traffic to the idiots at Freerepublic. :rolleyes: FFS Frank at least break the link!

[moostraks]

Original article for those who can't tolerate freepers idiocy:http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/paul-backers-aided-disruption-of-ryans-speech/

The responses on the original get it, the republican party bots at free republic don't.


The protest was quickly drowned out by the crowd’s energetic chants of “U.S.A., U.S.A.”

And this response to anything that goes against the republican party's image is soooo disturbing to me. Heil Romney! Anything for the sake of nationalism. And yet Obama is the only one they can find to liken to Hitler. Maybe it is time they look in the mirror and realize it is they who follow the mindless leadings of a personality for the sake of affiliating and being a part of something no matter what that something ultimately represents that are the real problem.

[AuH20]

So much for the theory that some RP supporters are "non-interventionists." Why do they throw themselves into the middle of this garbage??? It's so petty.
Eff both Code Pink and the GOP!!!!

[sailingaway]

Doesn't it feel good to absolutely not give a damn what the freepers' twisted little minds make of our actions?

[Travlyr]

The New York Times is pure garbage.

[NorfolkPCSolutions]

There have been bipartisan efforts on behalf of war. But, apparently, there can't be bipartisan efforts on behalf of peace.

Wow...I didn't think I could find such agreement with someone I've never met - and I'm no pacifist. Well said. +repping for the fuck of it

[pcosmar]

"More Proof Ron Paul Supporters Are Not Conservative"

I see it as "More Proof Ron Paul Supporters Are Diverse"

and it seems the some wish to exploit that to divide the movement.

[fr33]

I'm not a conservative. I'm a libertarian. I don't want to conserve. I want to REPEAL.

Peace and liberty are offensive to republicunts.

[AuH20]

The over-the-top republican bashing in here is repulsive. Jesus Christ!! It's almost as bad as Freeper land. I can't stand the extremes of either faction sometimes.

[moostraks]

So much for the theory that some RP supporters are "non-interventionists." Why do they throw themselves into the middle of this garbage??? It's so petty.
Eff both Code Pink and the GOP!!!!

It was blowback. They crapped on our delegates so the reward was a disruption. It wasn't a blanket endorsement of code pink.

[acptulsa]

The over-the-top republican bashing in here is repulsive. Jesus Christ!! It's almost as bad as Freeper land. I can't stand the extremes of either faction sometimes.

If the shoe fits, we'll be happy to make them wear it.

[AuH20]

It was blowback. They crapped on our delegates so the reward was a disruption. It wasn't a blanket endorsement of code pink.

But it's perception. People have remember that they are representatives for our movement and when they act childish like this it's not in our best interests. You have to keep your head above fray instead of utilizing Commie Pink as a wedge.

[AuH20]

If the shoe fits, we'll be happy to make them wear it.
Look. I'm banned from Freeper land. There are some incorrigible folks on that site and then there are a few folks who are sympathetic to our cause. I'm not a fan of the blanket scorched earth statements from either side, whether it's drug addled Paultard or whatever. I think both sides grab onto the extreme characteristics and proceed to bludgeon each other over the head ad nauseum.

[tod evans]

I like vaginas...

[LibertyEagle]

I'm not a conservative. I'm a libertarian. I don't want to conserve. I want to REPEAL.

Peace and liberty are offensive to republicunts.

We are the future of the Republican Party, remember?

And I AM a conservative. A real one. The ones you are talking about have forgotten their way; others are either Rockefeller-Republicans or ex-Democrats who came over with Reagan who never were conservative and still aren't.

If you didn't hear Jack Hunter's speech during the Rally, you might want to listen to it.

[brandon]

lol, they should have given a pass to Kokesh too.

[LibertyEagle]

But it's perception. People have remember that they are representatives for our movement and when they act childish like this it's not in our best interests. You have to keep your head above fray instead of utilizing Commie Pink as a wedge.

It's true. But, I can understand why the delegate did it, in the passion of the moment. It's too bad though because it creates a perception that is not helpful to our cause.

We have gained a lot from people who saw what was done during that convention and thought it was wrong. Hopefully, we don't do something to reverse that.

[pcosmar]

We are the future of the Republican Party, remember?


We?
Speak for yourself and not for me.
I have never been a republican, and have no intention ever being one. EVER.

I have been and still am independent.

[Brett85]

Look. I'm banned from Freeper land. There are some incorrigible folks on that site and then there are a few folks who are sympathetic to our cause. I'm not a fan of the blanket scorched earth statements from either side, whether it's drug addled Paultard or whatever. I think both sides grab onto the extreme characteristics and proceed to bludgeon each other over the head ad nauseum.

I've been banned from free republic twice, red state once. Those people don't have much use for anyone who's a Constitutional Conservative or paleo-conservative.

[AuH20]

We?
Speak for yourself and not for me.
I have never been a republican, and have no intention ever being one. EVER.

I have been and still am independent.

That's understandable. The GOP leadership is beyond corrupt and calculating. But I personally identify with the republicans of yesteryear. Howard Buffet, J. Bracken Lee, Barry Goldwater, Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul....... You get my drift???

[LibertyEagle]

We?
Speak for yourself and not for me.
I have never been a republican, and have no intention ever being one. EVER.

I have been and still am independent.

Sorry, I was talking about this..


Ron Paul "We are the Future" Rally - Live from USF Sun Dome - Tampa, Florida

[pcosmar]

Sorry, I was talking about this..

"We are the Future"

"WE" does not equal Republican.
"We" is the liberty movement,, the anti war movements included,, as well as the Militia movement, the Anti- Drug war movement, anti-police state, etc.
All of us. Libertarian, Democrat, Independent and even Republicans (when they reject party line on anti-liberty issues)

[LibertyEagle]

"We are the Future"

"WE" does not equal Republican.
"We" is the liberty movement,, the anti war movements included,, as well as the Militia movement, the Anti- Drug war movement,
All of us. Libertarian, Democrat, Independent and even Republicans (when they reject party line on anti-liberty issues)

Actually, I thought the idea was to show the GOP that the people there, and a lot of others, were the future of the Republican Party.

Pete, are you thinking that just because we are using the R tool somehow means that we agree with the establishment in it? Being registered as a Republican doesn't change who we are at all and one can be registered as an R and also be part of the militia movement, the anti-war movement, the anti-drug movement and anything else that individual chooses. It is just a tool to get liberty candidates elected. Nothing more.

[Bossobass]

Hasn't everyone gotten the memo?

It's conservative to murder women and children by remote control.

[idiom]

Heil Romney!

That's what we should have chanted.

[erowe1]

There have been bipartisan efforts on behalf of war. But, apparently, there can't be bipartisan efforts on behalf of peace.

But this particular protest wasn't about peace. It was about vaginas or something.

[erowe1]

The over-the-top republican bashing in here is repulsive.

Really? Like what?

[pcosmar]

But this particular protest wasn't about peace. It was about vaginas or something.

No,, It was about the warmongering.


I like vaginas...

I do agree with this as well.

[erowe1]

No,, It was about the warmongering.


Admittedly, I didn't see it. But from the article I read about it, it looked like the main issue was vaginas, and warmongering was thrown in as something secondary. Like, "You could save money you spend on wars and use it to help vaginas." or something. I didn't get the connection either.

[erowe1]

..

[GeorgiaAvenger]

In the future, this movement needs to stay away from organizations like Code Pink. Don't change your foreign policy views, but have some wisdom about hanging around hated organizations.

[erowe1]

In the future, this movement needs to stay away from organizations like Code Pink. Don't change your foreign policy views, but have some wisdom about hanging around hated organizations.

I wouldn't hesitate to join hands with a legitimate anti-war group to participate in some kind of proactive anti-war campaign, no matter how hated they are by conservatives. But they would have to be credible as an anti-war group, and not just partisan shills, and the campaign would have to stay on message.

[AuH20]

In the future, this movement needs to stay away from organizations like Code Pink. Don't change your foreign policy views, but have some wisdom about hanging around hated organizations.

Code Pink is an advocate for social justice. <BARF!!>

[moostraks]

But it's perception. People have remember that they are representatives for our movement and when they act childish like this it's not in our best interests. You have to keep your head above fray instead of utilizing Commie Pink as a wedge.

Define our movement. It was a lesson in blowback, a reaction to a situation that the GOP brought upon themselves. There is no longer an identity to be maintained as a RP supporter per say in the GOP. It was always about the message and now each person needs to work at having themselves respected in the party that they affiliate with as you are not a RP supporter but a liberty activist. This starts by realizing individuals are responsible for their own actions and not taking the bait when one insists in collectivist guilt.

[CaptainAmerica]

FACEPALM

[sailingaway]

Look. I'm banned from Freeper land. There are some incorrigible folks on that site and then there are a few folks who are sympathetic to our cause. I'm not a fan of the blanket scorched earth statements from either side, whether it's drug addled Paultard or whatever. I think both sides grab onto the extreme characteristics and proceed to bludgeon each other over the head ad nauseum.

there are some decent people over there. All the same, if there is ANY way to spin anything anyone of us does as bad, you can count on it being posted there, in the worst possible light.

[tod evans]

This starts by realizing individuals are responsible for their own actions and not taking the bait when one insists in collectivist guilt.


^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[pcosmar]

but have some wisdom about hanging around hated organizations.

They are hated by the same folks I hate,, Warmongers and Authoritarians.

I disagree with their socialist views,, but I disagree with the republicans socialist views too.

[moostraks]

Actually, I thought the idea was to show the GOP that the people there, and a lot of others, were the future of the Republican Party.

Pete, are you thinking that just because we are using the R tool somehow means that we agree with the establishment in it? Being registered as a Republican doesn't change who we are at all and one can be registered as an R and also be part of the militia movement, the anti-war movement, the anti-drug movement and anything else that individual chooses. It is just a tool to get liberty candidates elected. Nothing more.

Membership affiliation matters when you fund goals counter productive to your beliefs. Would you become a member of the Nazi party? What if we all agreed that we would join the Nazi party and change it to represent individual liberty? Would you further the Nazi party goals until your group was big enough to co-opt it and make it a force for good? Whether you like it or not that is what those of you who make it a conditional requirement to join the GOP or work to further the GOP are asking of some people. Walk a mile in another man's moccasins before casting judgement upon them.

[ClydeCoulter]

In the future, this movement needs to stay away from organizations like Code Pink. Don't change your foreign policy views, but have some wisdom about hanging around hated organizations.

No, those of you that want to use the "R" tool be careful. Not everyone is using the 'R' tool. Does that offend you?

[LibertyEagle]

They are hated by the same folks I hate,, Warmongers and Authoritarians.

I disagree with their socialist views,, but I disagree with the republicans socialist views too.

Nah, they only hate Republican warmongers and authoritarians. If the warmongers/authoritarians are Democrats, they like them just fine.

[ClydeCoulter]

Here's my take on it.

There may be some of you that will run for office in the republican party, or even democratic party, that may need to distance yourself from the movement. That's fine, we will support you if you do the right thing. I would understand you distancing yourself to protect your "image", but don't hate us because others of us chose a different path.

[Lucille]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[pcosmar]

Nah, they only hate Republican warmongers and authoritarians. If the warmongers/authoritarians are Democrats, they like them just fine.

BULLSHIT
I have already Proven that false in a couple of threads,, they have been actively protesting Obama and the Current administrations wars and actions.
but those with the "hate the other team" mentality ignore that FACT.

from another thread,

Shouldn't Code Pink be protesting Obama? I mean, he's the one leading the wars right now.

They do. They have.
Perhaps it is under-reported..

http://www.codepinkalert.org/article.php?id=5194

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-17/news/chi-dozens-from-code-pink-protest-outside-obama-headquarters-nato-country-consulates-20120517_1_british-consulate-protesters-nato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6YT5D69l7g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6YT5D69l7g



Or perhaps folks just like to hate on them because they aren't "R"s.

As I remember that is why folks started hating on Adam,, because he teamed up with them to protest.
(The dance at Jefferson Memorial as I remember)

[LibertyEagle]

BULLSHIT
I have already Proven that false in a couple of threads,, they have been actively protesting Obama and the Current administrations wars and actions.
but those with the "hate the other team" mentality ignore that FACT.

from another thread,

They do. They have.
Perhaps it is under-reported..

Calm the hell down. If you have reported it, I haven't seen it.

[pcosmar]

I haven't seen it.

And that is known as willful ignorance..
I had no problem finding several references.(and several more than I posted here)

It has been less notable in the MSM,, but they are not known to be fair or balanced.

I will call bullshit when bullshit is promoted here.

[LibertyEagle]

And that is known as willful ignorance..
I had no problem finding several references.(and several more than I posted here)

It has been less notable in the MSM,, but they are not known to be fair or balanced.

I will call bullshit when bullshit is promoted here.

F* you, Pete. I hadn't seen it. That its the truth.

Turn your bullshit meter on yourself, because it is beeping like hell. :mad:

[NewRightLibertarian]

I have no problem with anti-war protesters whether they come from the left or the right and neither should anyone who has reverence for the non-aggression principle

[pcosmar]

F* you, Pete. I hadn't seen it. That its the truth.

Turn your bullshit meter on yourself, because it is beeping like hell. :mad:

And yet YOU made this statement,

Nah, they only hate Republican warmongers and authoritarians. If the warmongers/authoritarians are Democrats, they like them just fine.

You don't like getting caught making a lying bullshit statement then keep your mouth shut.

[mad cow]

Are they going to bring their Vaginas to Charlotte to protest Obama's nomination?

[moostraks]

Are they going to bring their Vaginas to Charlotte to protest Obama's nomination?

NATO protests target Obama headquarters, consulates

About 75 protesters marched Thursday afternoon from President Barack Obama’s re-election headquarters to three consulates of countries that belong to NATO, protesting the alliance’s involvement in the war in Afghanistan and other military action.

Tighe Barry stood in the middle of that line, holding two yard sticks connected to a cardboard model of a drone to protest drone strikes by the United States, which he said have killed hundreds of innocent people.

“Barack Obama, a Nobel Peace Prize-winning president, needs to come clean,” said Barry, from Washington, D.C. “He’s not for peace or for ending these outdated wars.”

The protesters then staged what they called a “die-in,” in which Barry made explosion noises and pretended to kill about a dozen of the demonstrators with his model drone, as he shouted: “Who are these people? They look like they’re doing something bad from 3,000 feet. Whoops, killed some innocent people. Oh well!”

As the 12 protesters lay on the ground, others drew outlines of their bodies on the sidewalk with pink chalk. Most of the protesters belonged to Code Pink, which describes itself as a “women-initiated grassroots peace and social justice movement.”

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-17/news/chi-dozens-from-code-pink-protest-outside-obama-headquarters-nato-country-consulates-20120517_1_british-consulate-protesters-nato

They are protesting Obama. Will it get media attention at the convention? Who knows. We get to hear about this because it divides left/right GOP/RP supporters. If we hear about it at the DNC then it only serves to divide the left and that isn't part of msm's agenda.

[PatriotOne]

Sigh......

I sure wish everyone knew how to recognize controlled opposition.

Code Pink is your typical "controlled opposition" organization.

[pcosmar]

Sigh......

I sure wish everyone knew how to recognize controlled opposition.

Code Pink is your typical "controlled opposition" organization.

They are Anti-War. They were Anti-War when Bush was President.. and the "R"s hated them.
They are Anti-War while Obama is president.

The Veterans Against the War were Anti-War when Bush was President,, But when they were joined by Code Pink in protests they suddenly became "bad guys"..

So tell me who is controlled and who is opposition?

I am damn tired or the wars,, Am I controlled opposition? Is Ron Paul,,? he has been against them from the beginning.

[PatriotOne]

They are Anti-War. They were Anti-War when Bush was President.. and the "R"s hated them.
They are Anti-War while Obama is president.

The Veterans Against the War were Anti-War when Bush was President,, But when they were joined by Code Pink in protests they suddenly became "bad guys"..

So tell me who is controlled and who is opposition?

I am damn tired or the wars,, Am I controlled opposition? Is Ron Paul,,? he has been against them from the beginning.

Not sure what your point is there. Do you know what controlled opposition is?

[pcosmar]

Not sure what your point is there. Do you know what controlled opposition is?

Yes I think I do.. That would be the Romney Rah Rah section here.

That would be the several Tea Party groups that co-opted the Liberty movement. and stole the Tea Party name.

[moostraks]

Sigh......

I sure wish everyone knew how to recognize controlled opposition.

Code Pink is your typical "controlled opposition" organization.

I would probably agree with you here but that might be a bias on my part as I dislike some of their goals. To be fair though, most major groups probably have infiltrators now and are in danger of furthering goals counter productive to their original intent. Not much different than what many of us suggest doing by using the organizations to further goals of liberty. Even if a group isn't compromised the msm spins things to appear in a manner that furthers a passive, controlled society and that squeaky wheels are dangerous kooks. This is why parents educating their children (and themselves) to embrace a thought pattern outside of that which is being so heavily promoted is one of the highest priorities imo. Everything nowadays seems to be some exercise in peer pressure.

[FrankRep]

All I will say is you are known by the company you keep and how you carry yourself when things don't go your way. All the Paul backers who whine about the GOP not embracing you, here is why. Behaving like a petulant child when you don't get your way won't get anyone to consider your viewpoints down the road.


Ron Paul backers gave the Code Pink disrupters passes to get into the RNC
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1360836_Ron_Paul_backers_gave_the_Code_Pink_disrup ters_passes_to_get_into_the_RNC.html&page=1

[fr33]

Ron Paul backers gave the Code Pink disrupters passes to get into the RNC
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1360836_Ron_Paul_backers_gave_the_Code_Pink_disrup ters_passes_to_get_into_the_RNC.html&page=1Good. Now that there is no longer an anti-war candidate running, the only way to be heard is to stand up and shout.

This isn't a football game. People are dying.

[FrankRep]

Good. Now that there is no longer an anti-war candidate running, the only way to be heard is to stand up and shout.

This isn't a football game. People are dying.

Politics is a game, however.

[torchbearer]

Ron works with Kucinich, therefore ron is a progressive libtard.

[AuH20]

Ron works with Kucinich, therefore ron is a progressive libtard.

It's largely the misleading rhetoric. Pat Buchanan was friends with both Gore Vidal and Ralph Nader yet never came across as weak or left-leaning to potential voters. That seems to be why Ron & his supporters are typecasted.

[torchbearer]

It's largely the misleading rhetoric. Pat Buchanan was friends with both Gore Vidal and Ralph Nader yet never came across as weak or left-leaning to potential voters. That seems to be why Ron & his supporters are typecasted.


just giving an example of how associated doesn't equate into idealogical changes.

[FrankRep]

It's largely the misleading rhetoric. Pat Buchanan was friends with both Gore Vidal and Ralph Nader yet never came across as weak or left-leaning to potential voters. That seems to be why Ron & his supporters are typecasted.
It doesn't help when so many Ron Paul supporters say they hate Conservatives and Republicans. When Conservatives and Republicans reject Ron Paul they start whining about being rejected.

[AuH20]

It doesn't help when so many Ron Paul supporters say they hate Conservatives and Republicans. When Conservatives and Republicans reject Ron Paul they start whining about being rejected.

Another problem is that RP supporters equate the corrupt GOP leadership with ALL of the GOP electorate. That's not the case. So they start lashing out at anyone and everyone. Secondly, there is an active faction that hate social conservatives with a passion. We're talking frothing at the mouth. On the other side, we have the mainstream republican voter who erroneously thinks all RP supporters are primarily driven by prostitution and marijuana issues, which makes for an untenable situation all around. It's like cats and dogs. There is alot of miscommunication fostered by the fringe actors on both sides.

[tod evans]

Well spoken!



Another problem is that RP supporters equate the corrupt GOP leadership with ALL of the GOP electorate. That's not the case. So they start lashing out at anyone and everyone. Secondly, there is an active faction that hate social conservatives with a passion. We're talking frothing at the mouth. On the other side, we have the mainstream republican voter who erroneously thinks all RP supporters are primarily driven by prostitution and marijuana issues, which makes for an untenable situation all around. It's like cats and dogs. There is alot of miscommunication fostered by the fringe actors on both sides.

[PatriotOne]

Just a bit of info on the founder of Code Pink (controlled opposition). ....

Medea Benjamin (born Susan Benjamin on September 10, 1952) is an American political activist, best known for co-founding Code Pink.

Benjamin grew up in Long Island, New York, a self-described "nice Jewish girl."[1] During her freshman year at Tufts University, she renamed herself after the Greek mythological character Medea. She received master's degrees in public health from Columbia University and in economics from The New School.

The New School is renowned for its teaching, housing the international think tank, World Policy Institute.

The World Policy Institute

The World Policy Institute, a non-partisan center for progressive global policy analysis and thought leadership, focuses on complex challenges that demand cooperative solutions in an increasingly interdependent world: an inclusive and sustainable global market economy, engaged global civic participation and effective governance, and collaborative approaches to national and global security. WPI’s Fellows program, regular public and private events, collaborative policy development, media activities, and flagship World Policy Journal provide a forum for solution-focused policy analysis and public debate. Its programs seek to introduce fresh ideas and new voices from around the world on critical shared global issues including migration, climate change, technology, economic development, human rights, and counter-terrorism.

History

Founded in New York City in 1961 as the Fund for Education Concerning World Peace through World Law, the World Policy Institute has its origins in the post-World War II movement of moderate internationalists. Its founders—the banker Harry B. Hollins, and the banker and public servant C. Douglas Dillon inspired by the World Federalist thinker Grenville Clark—sought to develop international policies to prevent future carnage and devastation like what the world had just experienced. In 1963, the Institute’s name was shortened to World Law Fund. In 1972, it merged with the Institute for International Order, founded in 1948 and run by Earl D. Osborn. The combined organization adopted a new name, the Institute for World Order. In 1982, the World Policy Institute adopted its current name to reflect a shift from a primarily educational focus to incorporating a strong policy element, and founded World Policy Journal. From 1991-2007, the Institute was part of The New School, a university in Greenwich Village, New York City. In 2007, the World Policy Institute was re-incorporated as a free-standing institution, which works in active collaboration with like-minded organizations around the world.


Benjamin worked for 10 years as an economist and nutritionist in Latin America and Africa for the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the World Health Organization, the Swedish International Development Agency, and the Institute for Food and Development Policy. She spent four years in Cuba, and has authored three books on the country.

[AuH20]

Just a bit of info on the founder of Code Pink (controlled opposition). ....

Medea Benjamin (born Susan Benjamin on September 10, 1952) is an American political activist, best known for co-founding Code Pink.

Benjamin grew up in Long Island, New York, a self-described "nice Jewish girl."[1] During her freshman year at Tufts University, she renamed herself after the Greek mythological character Medea. She received master's degrees in public health from Columbia University and in economics from The New School.

The New School is renowned for its teaching, housing the international think tank, World Policy Institute.

The World Policy Institute

The World Policy Institute, a non-partisan center for progressive global policy analysis and thought leadership, focuses on complex challenges that demand cooperative solutions in an increasingly interdependent world: an inclusive and sustainable global market economy, engaged global civic participation and effective governance, and collaborative approaches to national and global security. WPI’s Fellows program, regular public and private events, collaborative policy development, media activities, and flagship World Policy Journal provide a forum for solution-focused policy analysis and public debate. Its programs seek to introduce fresh ideas and new voices from around the world on critical shared global issues including migration, climate change, technology, economic development, human rights, and counter-terrorism.

History

Founded in New York City in 1961 as the Fund for Education Concerning World Peace through World Law, the World Policy Institute has its origins in the post-World War II movement of moderate internationalists. Its founders—the banker Harry B. Hollins, and the banker and public servant C. Douglas Dillon inspired by the World Federalist thinker Grenville Clark—sought to develop international policies to prevent future carnage and devastation like what the world had just experienced. In 1963, the Institute’s name was shortened to World Law Fund. In 1972, it merged with the Institute for International Order, founded in 1948 and run by Earl D. Osborn. The combined organization adopted a new name, the Institute for World Order. In 1982, the World Policy Institute adopted its current name to reflect a shift from a primarily educational focus to incorporating a strong policy element, and founded World Policy Journal. From 1991-2007, the Institute was part of The New School, a university in Greenwich Village, New York City. In 2007, the World Policy Institute was re-incorporated as a free-standing institution, which works in active collaboration with like-minded organizations around the world.


Benjamin worked for 10 years as an economist and nutritionist in Latin America and Africa for the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the World Health Organization, the Swedish International Development Agency, and the Institute for Food and Development Policy. She spent four years in Cuba, and has authored three books on the country.

scary resume

[angelatc]

In the future, this movement needs to stay away from organizations like Code Pink. Don't change your foreign policy views, but have some wisdom about hanging around hated organizations.

Sure. I thnk we should stay away from the ACLU too, because they sometimes work for causes that we don't necessarily agree with. And the truthers. And the anti-vaxxers. And the war mongers. And and the anti-war crowd. And rich people. And fat people. And poor people.

Political isolationism, from the crowd that crows about free speech and free trade. Beautiful!

[PatriotOne]

scary resume

The connections of the founder of Code Pink with those working towards One World Government are a mile wide and a mile deep. Here's the President of the school she went to:

David E. Van Zandt - President of The New School

Dean Van Zandt graduated summa cum laude from Princeton University with a degree in sociology. He completed his Juris Doctor (J.D.) at Yale University, where he served as managing editor for the Yale Law Journal, and earned his Ph.D. in sociology at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

Member of the Council on Foreign Relations

More info:

Code Pink is on the payroll of Winston Foundation, an organization linked to the National Endowment for Democracy, a documented CIA front, and connected as well to the Rockefeller Family Fund, the Carnegie Corporation, the Heinz Family Foundation, and the Soros Foundations. In 2003, Code Pink shared office space with the Institute for Policy Studies, an organization taking money from the Turner, Ford, MacArthur and Charles Stewart Mott foundations. The Ford Foundation is notorious for funding liberal organizations. It is connected to the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the CIA (see Alternative Media Censorship: Sponsored by CIA’s Ford Foundation?).

[AuH20]

The connections of the founder of Code Pink with those working towards One World Government are a mile wide and a mile deep. Here's the President of the school she went to:

David E. Van Zandt - President of The New School

Dean Van Zandt graduated summa cum laude from Princeton University with a degree in sociology. He completed his Juris Doctor (J.D.) at Yale University, where he served as managing editor for the Yale Law Journal, and earned his Ph.D. in sociology at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

Member of the Council on Foreign Relations

More info:

Code Pink is on the payroll of Winston Foundation, an organization linked to the National Endowment for Democracy, a documented CIA front, and connected as well to the Rockefeller Family Fund, the Carnegie Corporation, the Heinz Family Foundation, and the Soros Foundations. In 2003, Code Pink shared office space with the Institute for Policy Studies, an organization taking money from the Turner, Ford, MacArthur and Charles Stewart Mott foundations. The Ford Foundation is notorious for funding liberal organizations. It is connected to the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the CIA (see Alternative Media Censorship: Sponsored by CIA’s Ford Foundation?).

You are aware who's family was entrenched within the Ford Foundation??? :D Let's just say he's residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue as of this moment.

[FrankRep]

Sure. I thnk we should stay away from the ACLU too, because they sometimes work for causes that we don't necessarily agree with. And the truthers. And the anti-vaxxers. And the war mongers. And and the anti-war crowd. And rich people. And fat people. And poor people.

Political isolationism, from the crowd that crows about free speech and free trade. Beautiful!

I think staying away from the Neo-Nazis and the Stormfront people would be a good idea too. Do you disagree?

[erowe1]

Great info PatriotOne. Thanks.

[PatriotOne]

You are aware who's family was entrenched within the Ford Foundation??? :D Let's just say he's residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue as of this moment.

Oh yeah. Mother worked for the Ford Foundation.

[AuH20]

Oh yeah. Mother worked for the Ford Foundation.

Grandfather may have worked for the OSS as well. Starts at 1:30.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI95u2isqn0

[PatriotOne]

Great info PatriotOne. Thanks.

Just to follow up.....

Adam Kokesh and his ties to Code Pink go back at least to 2008 that I know of...probably farther.

[PatriotOne]

Grandfather may have worked for the OSS as well.

It's absolutely mind boggling how these people have worked for decades and decades grooming people to put in positions of power, putting their pawns in place, front organizations, mind controlled subjects, etc., to further their goals of One World Government.

[AuH20]

It's absolutely mind boggling how these people have worked for decades and decades grooming people to put in positions of power, putting their pawns in place, front organizations, mind controlled subjects, etc., to further their goals of One World Government.

What kind of person can literally vanish and disappear in terms of leaving a discernible paper trail for years?? Maintain multiple social security accounts which don't jive with his place of birth?? Gain rapid entrance into prestigious Ivy league institutions without the necessary transcript??? Hang around with foreign policy giants like Zbigniew Brzezinski in your early 20s?? LOL

It is so blatantly obvious that Obama is a product of one of our clandestine intelligence agencies. The average person does not have such glaring inconsistencies in their career paper trail. What's even more disturbing is the iron grip control of the MSM to squash any investigation of our glorious leader. Of course, the MSM can track down enemy of the state Rand Paul's frivolous exploits in college but any such venture into the life of Obama is strictly forbidden.

[ZenBowman]

But it's perception. People have remember that they are representatives for our movement and when they act childish like this it's not in our best interests. You have to keep your head above fray instead of utilizing Commie Pink as a wedge.

Code Pink is communist? Do tell?

Code Pink simply endorses Ron Paul's foreign policy.

[AuH20]

Code Pink is communist? Do tell?

Code Pink simply endorses Ron Paul's foreign policy.

Code Pink is a sister to the communists ideologically speaking. Benjamin and the gang probably differ with the communists over the use of force to accomplish their goals but the theme is relatively the same. Divide others by sex, creed and color under the auspices of social justice.

[pcosmar]

It doesn't help when so many Ron Paul supporters say they hate Conservatives and Republicans. When Conservatives and Republicans reject Ron Paul they start whining about being rejected.

Define please.. Conservative? Republican?
You throw terms around as if the mean something.

Neo-cons,, Troskyites, Authoritarians.. and Zionists. That would be closer to my observations.
Some give a bit of lip service to the Constitution. I have only seen one that respects it.

And Republic,, Come on,,, think critically.

Most that make those claims are Globalists, and subservient to the Rothschild Empire.
Regardless of what they call themselves.

[FrankRep]

It doesn't help when so many Ron Paul supporters say they hate Conservatives and Republicans. When Conservatives and Republicans reject Ron Paul they start whining about being rejected.


Define please.. Conservative? Republican?
You throw terms around as if the mean something.

The people I see here that say They hate Conservatives and Republicans don't define what they mean.

I call myself a Constitutionalist. I point out that Republicans and Conservatives should accept the principals of the Constitution.

[angelatc]

I think staying away from the Neo-Nazis and the Stormfront people would be a good idea too. Do you disagree?

Well I was going to call Benton ans ask him who we are allowed to hang around with, but he won't return my calls, so I guess I'm on the fringe list too.

[angelatc]

Just to follow up.....

Adam Kokesh and his ties to Code Pink go back at least to 2008 that I know of...probably farther.

He's an anti-war activist. I am guessing you didn't need to look too far to find that connection.

[Lucille]

There have been bipartisan efforts on behalf of war. But, apparently, there can't be bipartisan efforts on behalf of peace.

+rep

[pcosmar]

The people I see here that say They hate Conservatives and Republicans don't define what they mean.

I call myself a Constitutionalist. I point out that Republicans and Conservatives should accept the principals of the Constitution.

Ah,, I do as well.. (Constitutionalist) I am also fairly conservative,, though generally more tolerant of lifestyle differences that most that call themselves that.

The labels are a big problem,, and that is perception.
Most,,myself included,, and based on observation, se most "R"s and "conservatives" as Authoritarians and Fascists.

Though the Republican Party platform gives lip service to the constitution,, the actions in real life are far different.
And most that call themselves "conservative" tend to want to force their lifestyle and moral code on others,, and are largely responsible for the present Police State.

This is observation,, and perception.

Socialism has infected both parties,and society as a whole. I dislike Socialism. ( I cannot articulate my hate for it accurately)
And Both parties are equally socialist,, varying only in small inconsequential ways.

The constant divisions over which communist ideology is better or worse (Marx or Trotsky) Keeps folks from working together to negate or minimize the effects of either.

We can't join with other folks to oppose the wars
We can't join with other folks to oppose the FED
We can't join with other folks on Civil Liberties

pretty effective division.

[erowe1]

If Code Pink does this at the DNC, I'll give them more credit.

[PatriotOne]

Adam's dad.........

United States Securities Exchange Commission v. Charles R. Kokesh Civil Action No. 6:09-cv-1021 (D.N.M.) (October 27, 2009)


SEC Charges New Mexico Man with Misappropriating $45 Million Dollars

On October 27, 2009, the Securities and Exchange Commission (“Commission”) filed a civil injunctive action against Charles R. Kokesh for his role in defrauding at least 21,000 investors in four business development companies (“BDCs”) through a variety of schemes and contrivances.

The Commission’s complaint alleges that:

From at least 1995 through July 2007, Kokesh controlled two now-defunct Commission-registered investment-adviser firms (the “Advisers”), which in turn controlled and provided investment advice to the BDCs.

Acting by and through the Advisers, Kokesh misappropriated approximately $45 million of investor funds by causing the BDCs to pay illegal distributions, performance fees, and expense reimbursements to the Advisers.

To conceal the scheme, Kokesh caused the Advisers to distribute misleading proxy statements to BDC investors and to file false Commission reports on behalf of the BDCs.
The Commission’s complaint, filed in United States District Court in New Mexico, alleges that Kokesh violated Section 37, or in the alternative Section 57, of the Investment Company Act, and aided and abetted violations of Sections 13(a) and 14(a) of the Exchange Act and Rules 12b-20, 13a-1, 13a-13, and 14a-9 thereunder, and Sections 205, 206(1) and 206(2) of the Investment Advisers Act.

The Commission seeks a permanent injunction against further violations of the securities laws, disgorgement plus prejudgment interest, and civil money penalties.

http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2009/lr21264.htm

[pcosmar]

If Code Pink does this at the DNC, I'll give them more credit.

They did in 2008,, and have more recently.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfISlq1gzK8

And yes they plan to be in Charlotte as well.
http://www.codepinkalert.org/section.php?id=472


CODEPINK activists from around the country will converge in Tampa and Charlotte August 25-September 6 to rock the parties and send a clear message to Republicans and Democrats: Peace, Economic Justice, Women's Rights and Money Out of Politics! Will you be at the historic protests at the Republican and Democratic National Conventions? Sign up to join us and check out the schedule by clicking on the links below.

[LibertyEagle]

It seems pretty clear to me. In politics, perception is everything. And Republicans, rightly or wrongly, see themselves as being for the Constitution, states' rights, liberty and all the rest. (stop laughing) They see liberals as those people who want big government, more and more handouts and are fine with our country being taken over by the new version of Communism. Which in their mind are the evil islamofascists (sic). They see groups like Code Pink as being a liberal group promoting those concepts and will consider anyone who aligns themselves with such groups as being liberal too.

As long as we are trying to get our liberty candidates elected to office through the Republican Party, our candidates have to appeal to Republicans in order to win their primaries.

If we want to be helpful in getting our guys elected, it's probably not a good idea to associate the liberty movement with known liberal groups.

[PatriotOne]

Adam Kokesh was in the 3rd Civil Affairs Group

In addition to conducting civil affairs activities, 3rd Civil Affairs Group provided limited tactical psychological operations support for mission accomplishment.

Psychological warfare (PSYWAR), or the basic aspects of modern psychological operations (PSYOP), have been known by many other names or terms, including Psy Ops, Political Warfare, “Hearts and Minds”, and Propaganda.[1] Various techniques are used, by any set of groups, and aimed to influence a target audience's value systems, belief systems, emotions, motives, reasoning, or behavior. It is used to induce confessions or reinforce attitudes and behaviors favorable to the originator's objectives, and are sometimes combined with black operations or false flag tactics. Target audiences can be governments, organizations, groups, and individuals.

[LibertyEagle]

And yet YOU made this statement,

You don't like getting caught making a lying bullshit statement then keep your mouth shut.

Pete, there have been a number of threads on here asking where Code Pink was since Obama has been warmongering. So yes, I have thought them to be silent since he has been in office. If you have evidence to the contrary, the thing to do is point me to it. Not act like a JACKASS.

[PatriotOne]

He's an anti-war activist. I am guessing you didn't need to look too far to find that connection.

He's a controlled opposition anti-war activist...just like Code Pink.

[pcosmar]

He's a controlled opposition anti-war activist...just like Code Pink.

So tell me what anti-war group is not controlled opposition?

Veterans Against the War and Code pink have been on the front line.. I haven't heard of many others.

Care to name them ? Some Video of their protests. Some actual visible opposition.

or are they busy sitting on their hands so as not to offend?

lets see,, Julian Assange is controlled opposition
Anonymous is controlled opposition
VAW and Code Pink are controlled opposition
Alex Jones is controlled opposition

Virtually anyone that IS opposition, is controlled opposition.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

It seems pretty clear to me. In politics, perception is everything. And Republicans, rightly or wrongly, see themselves as being for the Constitution, states' rights, liberty and all the rest. (stop laughing) They see liberals as those people who want big government, more and more handouts and are fine with our country being taken over by the new version of Communism. Which in their mind are the evil islamofascists (sic). They see groups like Code Pink as being a liberal group promoting those concepts and will consider anyone who aligns themselves with such groups as being liberal too.

As long as we are trying to get our liberty candidates elected to office through the Republican Party, our candidates have to appeal to Republicans in order to win their primaries.

If we want to be helpful in getting our guys elected, it's probably not a good idea to associate the liberty movement with known liberal groups.

LE should just come out out of the closet. We all know you're a tool for GOP 'associate by guilt' non-sense. You'd piss on the Anti-Imperialist League because people of different persuasions came together for one goal, one liberty and property right oriented goal. You'd piss on any group that had folks of different persuasions to accomplish a liberty-goal (e.g. Drug War, civil liberties, etc.), because some fascist assholes with IQ's of 70 that you want to pander to / get a vote from.

In doing so, you become everything you hate. You eschew all your so-called beliefs. It's like Bush: I violated market principles to save the market. What a bunch of HORSE SHIT.

[pcosmar]

Pete, there have been a number of threads on here asking where Code Pink was since Obama has been warmongering. So yes, I have thought them to be silent since he has been in office. If you have evidence to the contrary, the thing to do is point me to it. Not act like a JACKASS.

Google worked just fine for me.. I am guessing Yahoo or any other search engine would as well..

Just type Code Pink,, and hit "enter".

Oh,, yeah,, then READ some.

[PatriotOne]

So tell me what anti-war group is not controlled opposition?

Veterans Against the War and Code pink have been on the front line.. I haven't heard of many others.

Care to name them ? Some Video of their protests. Some actual visible opposition.

or are they busy sitting on their hands so as not to offend?

lets see,, Julian Assange is controlled opposition
Anonymous is controlled opposition
VAW and Code Pink are controlled opposition
Alex Jones is controlled opposition

Virtually anyone that IS opposition, is controlled opposition.

I haven't researched anonomous or VAW to know what they are. But the others you listed are controlled opposition. I've listed enough info in this thread on the Code Pink founder and Adam Kokesh that it should be fairly obvious to anyone taking the time to read it.

As far as any legit anti-war organizations....well...I'm not aware of any that are currently active. Code Pink probably has lots of legit anti-war members. Too bad the controlled op founder has them dressing up like vagina's :rolleyes:.

[LibertyEagle]

LE should just come out out of the closet. We all know you're a tool for GOP 'associate by guilt' non-sense. You'd piss on the Anti-Imperialist League because people of different persuasions came together for one goal, one liberty and property right oriented goal. You'd piss on any group that had folks of different persuasions to accomplish a liberty-goal (e.g. Drug War, civil liberties, etc.), because some fascist assholes with IQ's of 70 that you want to pander to / get a vote from.

In doing so, you become everything you hate. You eschew all your so-called beliefs. It's like Bush: I violated market principles to save the market. What a bunch of HORSE SHIT.

:rolleyes:

What I told you is politics 101. Just because you hate it, doesn't make it any less true.

It's also something you should have learned in a basic logic class.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

:rolleyes:

It is called playing to your audience.

It's a pretty basic concept.

Playing to your audience, you become them. It's simple, if all you want is their vote, then become Establishment-like...wait, that's what you are suggesting in the first place. You're on the wrong board, playing that game.

Unlike you, I'm not a partisan hack. I'll march alongside Code Pink to end the wars, and I'll march alongside AFP to end Obamacare. I won't enjoy being around either group, but I'm not dumb enough to eschew relevant coalitions on matters where my principles meet their's. Like I said, you would piss on the Anti-Imperialist League and then claim you're against the wars.

[LibertyEagle]

Playing to your audience, you become them. It's simple, if all you want is their vote, then become Establishment-like...wait, that's what you are suggesting in the first place. You're on the wrong board, playing that game.

No. It's called not sticking a fork in their eye and then asking for their vote.

We share a great deal in common with rank-and-file Republicans, actually. Which is why so many of them receive Rand Paul and Thomas Massie so well. The biggest issue is that they don't realize that they are not walking their talk. I credit FOX news with most of that, because FOX has done everything they could to create an irrational fear of Muslims. They're coming around though. Slowly, but surely.


Unlike you, I'm not a partisan hack. I'll march alongside Code Pink to end the wars, and I'll march alongside AFP to end Obamacare. I won't enjoy being around either group, but I'm not dumb enough to eschew relevant coalitions on matters where my principles meet their's. Like I said, you would piss on the Anti-Imperialist League and then claim you're against the wars.

Let's be honest here, shall we. You have no interest in doing anything politically and that's fine. But, some of us do. What I posted is just common sense.

[pcosmar]

For those with short term memory loss,,

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?296120-June-4th-Dance-at-TJ-s!-Live-Stream-jeffersondanceparty.info

Same shit,,different thread.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

No. It's called not sticking a fork in their eye and then asking for their vote.

We share a great deal in common with rank-and-file Republicans, actually. Which is why so many of them receive Rand Paul and Thomas Massie so well. The biggest issue is that they don't realize that they are not walking their talk. I credit FOX news with most of that, because FOX has done everything they could to create an irrational fear of Muslims. They're coming around though. Slowly, but surely.



Let's be honest here, shall we. You have no interest in doing anything politically and that's fine. But, some of us do. What I posted is just common sense.

I have no idea what you are even doing here. You might as well plaster a huge, I love the GOP and its establishment, as your profile pic. Like I said, if you want their vote (and that is all you care about), then just turn into the Establishment. They vote those guys in like it's going out of style. Tell me how tough you'll be on criminals, how much you are going to propagate surveillance to imprison them and call it safety, tell them what brown folks you are going to bomb next, and then, tell them how much Corporate-Welfare you are going to increase next, and how many brown folks you are going to deport -- and then with a straight face, tell us how you are fighting 'for liberty'.

You PISS on anything that doesn't cater to these ass backward fascists. Don't do civil disobedience, don't utter any words they may not like, don't ruffle feathers, etc. etc. If you were the majority of the movement, we'd look no different than your typical GOP-douche nozzle.

[AuH20]

I have no idea what you are even doing here. You might as well plaster a huge, I love the GOP and its establishment, as your profile pic. Like I said, if you want their vote (and that is all you care about), then just turn into the Establishment. They vote those guys in like it's going out of style. Tell me how tough you'll be on criminals, how much you are going to propagate surveillance to imprison them and call it safety, tell them what brown folks you are going to bomb next, and then, tell them how much Corporate-Welfare you are going to increase next, and how many brown folks you are going to deport -- and then with a straight face, tell us how you are fighting 'for liberty'.

You PISS on anything that doesn't cater to these ass backward fascists. Don't do civil disobedience, don't utter any words they may not like, don't ruffle feathers, etc. etc. If you were the majority of the movement, we'd look no different than your typical GOP-douche nozzle.

Calling all republicans fascists??? Don't see the majority advocating for social interventionism, eugenics and centralized planning which was typical of the Mussolini regime. This sounds more like a glass half empty ancap rant, which I appreciate from time to time, but in this case is off the target.

[LibertyEagle]

I have no idea what you are even doing here.

I've supported Ron Paul before you were born, kiddie. That's what I am doing here. How about you?


You might as well plaster a huge, I love the GOP and its establishment, as your profile pic.

I never said I loved them, or even liked them for that matter.


Like I said, if you want their vote (and that is all you care about), then just turn into the Establishment.

Of course that's not the only thing we want. I am just telling you facts, is all. If some of us want to use the Republican Party to get our candidates elected, don't rub their noses in known liberal groups. Get it? If you don't care to get our guys elected, then go stand next to the CP-USA too.



They vote those guys in like it's going out of style. Tell me how tough you'll be on criminals, how much you are going to propagate surveillance to imprison them and call it safety, tell them what brown folks you are going to bomb next, and then, tell them how much Corporate-Welfare you are going to increase next, and how many brown folks you are going to deport -- and then with a straight face, tell us how you are fighting 'for liberty'.
All this is coming from whatever dream world you are in. It's nothing I said, or even suggested.


You PISS on anything that doesn't cater to these ass backward fascists. Don't do civil disobedience, don't utter any words they may not like, don't ruffle feathers, etc. etc. If you were the majority of the movement, we'd look no different than your typical GOP-douche nozzle.

I want to get liberty candidates elected. So, I am in favor of not sticking a fork in their eye and then asking them to vote for our people. Code Pink is the fork in this example. They don't share much of anything with us, beyond being anti-war. To my knowledge they don't now, nor have they ever, supported Ron Paul. So, why would I go out of my way to align the liberty movement with them, when I know that it would be harmful to getting our candidates elected? If we were working through the Democratic Party, it might be different.

You act as if I am suggesting we give up one of our principles and I am not.

[AuH20]

I've supported Ron Paul before you were born, kiddie. That's what I am doing here. How about you?



I never said I loved them, or even liked them for that matter.



Of course that's not the only thing we want. I am just telling you facts, is all. If some of us want to use the Republican Party to get our candidates elected, don't rub their noses in known liberal groups. Get it? If you don't care to get our guys elected, then go stand next to the CP-USA too.



All this is coming from whatever dream world you are in. It's nothing I said, or even suggested.



I want to get liberty candidates elected. So, I am in favor of not sticking a fork in their eye and then asking them to vote for our people. Code Pink is the fork in this example. They don't share much of anything with us, beyond being anti-war. To my knowledge they don't now, nor have they ever, supported Ron Paul. So, why would I go out of my way to align the liberty movement with them, when I know that it would be harmful to getting our candidates elected? If we were working through the Democratic Party, it might be different.

You act as if I am suggesting we give up one of our principles and I am not.

There is a strategic time and a place if you want to freely associate with Code Pink and unite for a common cause. Giving one's pass to a foaming at the mouth Code Pinko at such a highly visible location like the RNC Convention is beyond dumb. There is no tangible benefit to be gained.

Don't these people ever think for a second??? Then again I should be chastised for injecting a healthy dose of common sense for the politically naive. It's like anything. Think before you act. Weigh the pros and cons to the best of your ability. Like it or not, your actions represent millions of others.

[pcosmar]

.

You act as if I am suggesting we give up one of our principles and I am not.

I would like to think not.

It is honestly hard to tell.. :(

[PatriotOne]

For those with short term memory loss,,

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?296120-June-4th-Dance-at-TJ-s!-Live-Stream-jeffersondanceparty.info

Same shit,,different thread.

So you think Adam Kokesh and Code Pink, along with their merry band of fools, dancing like a bunch of idiots around the Jefferson Memorial was a big accomplishment for the liberty movement?

They looked like they were a group of mentally challenged adults who just got off the short bus and were on a field trip with their special education class.

Seriously Pete....any other tourists/people watching that embarrassing spectacle was having the same reaction I did when I use to run into a bunch of Hare Krisna's dancing around and playing their tamborine's at the airports.

[LibertyEagle]

I would like to think not.

It is honestly hard to tell.. :(

That's cool, Pete. I have no idea what you stand for at all, anymore, besides just being mad at everyone and everything. Just going around screaming that everything sucks, doesn't seem to me to be a constructive way to at least try to get us out of this shit.

But, to each their own.

[pcosmar]

Weigh the pros and cons to the best of your ability.
No down side to it, The RNC farce of a primary was over and the new Commie crowned.
They had rejected all rules and decorum and had made up new rules as they went along.
Their minds made up. I watched the whole thing, and was honestly and physically sick to my stomach.

I would have preferred is the Liberty candidates had rushed the stage and physically removed Boner(sic) and demanded votes and debates take place..
but that didn't happen


Like it or not, your actions represent millions of others.

Wrong. My actions are mine,,and mine alone.
Any that join me do so by their own choice,, or they don't by their own choice.

I don't represent anyone....Ron Paul represents ME,,, not the other way around.

[pcosmar]

That's cool, Pete. I have no idea what you stand for at all, anymore, besides just being mad at everyone and everything. Just going around screaming that everything sucks, doesn't seem to me to be a constructive way to at least try to get us out of this shit.

But, to each their own.

I have no expectation of "getting out of this shit",, The small hope of avoiding some of it ended earlier this week.

I would rather prepare and warn folks of the shit,, and help them deal with it.

I expect a world of shit,, real soon.

[LibertyEagle]

I have no expectation of "getting out of this shit",, The small hope of avoiding some of it ended earlier this week.

I would rather prepare and warn folks of the shit,, and help them deal with it.

I expect a world of shit,, real soon.

Fair enough. Then, why are you participating in threads about political activism?

[acptulsa]

Don't these people ever think for a second??? Then again I should be chastised for injecting a healthy dose of common sense for the politically naive. It's like anything. Think before you act. Weigh the pros and cons to the best of your ability. Like it or not, your actions represent millions of others.

To be honest, I think they did think for a second. And I think that their thought process involved considering the way we had been treated and feeling an urge to stage a public protest. Who knows, such an individual just might even think that they might want to consider their prospective 'allies'. They might even consider it prudent to reach out to someone else who is sick of watching this nation wage all of these unnecessary, and even worse, self-destructive wars.

No, I don't think that delegate played the Good Samaritan without the slightest prior consideration.

[acptulsa]

That's cool, Pete. I have no idea what you stand for at all, anymore, besides just being mad at everyone and everything. Just going around screaming that everything sucks, doesn't seem to me to be a constructive way to at least try to get us out of this shit.

But, to each their own.

When that which is really and truly outrageous (in the original meaning of that overused word) occurs, it really isn't that easy to avoid being outraged.

And if you don't mind my saying so, this shit has left you and I a little touchy, too.

[pcosmar]

Fair enough. Then, why are you participating in threads about political activism?

Delaying, I do not believe the march to totalitarianism will be stopped.. but it can be delayed.
And after that,, it can be resisted.

I choose to be a bump in the road.
in the later option,, I do not discuss.

[RickyJ]

Doesn't it feel good to absolutely not give a damn what the freepers' twisted little minds make of our actions?

Last I heard they were not going to support Romney under any circumstances, at least that is what the owner of the place Jim Robinson said. Did he change his mind, are they now supporting Romney?

[LibertyEagle]

lol

http://i50.tinypic.com/14jn4g2.png

[FrankRep]

lol

http://i50.tinypic.com/14jn4g2.png

+rep

Thanks for adding reputation to this user.

[pcosmar]

lol

http://i50.tinypic.com/14jn4g2.png

Yeah,, that's not true.. If you were only interested in Winning you would be working for Obama.

The GOP is good at losing all on their own.

[angelatc]

OMG - how dare you be interested in winning elections.

[fr33]

It seems pretty clear to me. In politics, perception is everything. And Republicans, rightly or wrongly, see themselves as being for the Constitution, states' rights, liberty and all the rest. (stop laughing) They see liberals as those people who want big government, more and more handouts and are fine with our country being taken over by the new version of Communism. Which in their mind are the evil islamofascists (sic). They see groups like Code Pink as being a liberal group promoting those concepts and will consider anyone who aligns themselves with such groups as being liberal too.

As long as we are trying to get our liberty candidates elected to office through the Republican Party, our candidates have to appeal to Republicans in order to win their primaries.

If we want to be helpful in getting our guys elected, it's probably not a good idea to associate the liberty movement with known liberal groups.
You are listing the reasons why clinging to the Republican party like beaten wife is a bad idea. You just do not realize it.

For most of us that are anti-war, you have understand why we are anti-war. This is a moral issue and I (many of us) WILL NOT be quiet about it. It is not acceptable to be pro war. And for that reason I do not belong in the Republican party. The speech McCain gave during the RNC represented the opinions of most Republicans I know, except for our irate minority. He listed off multiple genocides he hopes to accomplish before he dies and sounded like he'd haunt the GOP when he does die to make sure it continues. When McCain was the nominee, foreign policy was considered his strong point by republican voters. This is not the party for me. Ron Paul is an anomaly.

[LibertyEagle]

You are listing the reasons why clinging to the Republican party like beaten wife is a bad idea. You just do not realize it.

For most of us that are anti-war, you have understand why we are anti-war. This is a moral issue and I (many of us) WILL NOT be quiet about it. It is not acceptable to be pro war. And for that reason I do not belong in the Republican party. The speech McCain gave during the RNC represented the opinions of most Republicans I know, except for our irate minority. He listed off multiple genocides he hopes to accomplish before he dies and sounded like he'd haunt the GOP when he does die to make sure it continues. When McCain was the nominee, foreign policy was considered his strong point by republican voters. This is not the party for me. Ron Paul is an anomaly.

Where did I say anything at all about keeping quiet about our stance of not fighting wars of aggression? Because I never said that.

And I am not "clinging" to the Republican Party at all. I just want to keep getting liberty candidates elected. All the party has ever been is a mechanism to do that. If you think you have a better idea, what is it?

[fr33]

Where did I say anything at all about keeping quiet about our stance of not fighting wars of aggression?

I think you totally misunderstood what I was saying.Your post was about perception. I support Code Pink's efforts against the wars. Maybe the organization is bad but the individuals putting themselves in the wolves den are awesome and I support them. Like you said Republicans won't accept these actions.

[LibertyEagle]

Your post was about perception. I support Code Pink's efforts against the wars. Maybe the organization is bad but the individuals putting themselves in the wolves den are awesome and I support them. Like you said Republicans won't accept these actions.

You do realize that it is possible to be against the wars without buddying up to Code Pink, right?

[fr33]

This woman has more moral integrity in her little finger than any one of those Israel-firsters in that room:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-fkG2i0e8

[Occam's Banana]

Membership affiliation matters when you fund goals counter productive to your beliefs. Would you become a member of the Nazi party? What if we all agreed that we would join the Nazi party and change it to represent individual liberty? Would you further the Nazi party goals until your group was big enough to co-opt it and make it a force for good? Whether you like it or not that is what those of you who make it a conditional requirement to join the GOP or work to further the GOP are asking of some people. Walk a mile in another man's moccasins before casting judgement upon them.

Wow. Just wow. You all but explicitly accuse a group of people you disagree with of being the moral equivalent of Nazi collaborators - and then wag your finger at them about "casting judgement upon" other people.

Just ... wow.

[Pisces]

You do realize that it is possible to be against the wars without buddying up to Code Pink, right?

You sellout! I bet now you're going to tell us we don't have to dress up like giant vaginas to show that we're anti-war. /s

[WhistlinDave]

Hasn't everyone gotten the memo?

It's conservative to murder women and children by remote control.

Apparently Obama is one hell of a great Conservative these days.

[fr33]

Apparently Obama is one hell of a great Conservative these days.Technically he is. Conservatives cling to the status quo. Both parties want war and imperialism. The Ron Paul movement is popular because it represents a libertarian movement.

I understand clinging to the term conservative because we can on fiscall topics; but the fact is we can't claim conservative when it comes to foreign policy. The knuckle-dragging conservatives have owned the warfare state. Try and convince McCain he was in Viet-Nam for bad reasons. Go on, try it.

[helmuth_hubener]

Just more proof that to most Republicans, being "conservative" doesn't mean adherence to a coherent set of small-government principles, it just means that you hate all the correct people and groups. That is actually a very insightful way of putting it. It takes only an instant of reflection and I see that yes, shared hatred is indeed the strongest thing tying "conservatives" together.

The same thing is true about "liberals".

When people of like political mind have conversations, they commiserate about the various dastardly deeds the other side has done. That's the most common subject of conversation.

In fact, the same thing is true of us as well! Go to a Ron Paul meetup and everyone will want to talk about the latest low-down way the MSM or establishment is cheating and ripping us off, or grossly violating rights, or etc. etc.

So maybe politics is really all about joining together in shared hatred.

[moostraks]

Wow. Just wow. You all but explicitly accuse a group of people you disagree with of being the moral equivalent of Nazi collaborators - and then wag your finger at them about "casting judgement upon" other people.

Just ... wow.

Wow...just wow you are being ignorant. It was a matter of making a correlation between something most people find so morally repugnant they would not want to associate with it because they cannot seem to be able to grasp the reaction of those who do not want to associate with the republican party because of how heinous they view the republican partiy's behavior. Stop being so paranoid. I did not say the republican party was the nazi party. Major reading comprehension fail...

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Y'all, I was actually there as a delegate.

Those Code Pink assholes had GREEN CREDENTIALS. Green credentials = PRESS.

The media set that stunt up. Not Ron Paul supporters.

[LibertyEagle]

Technically he is. Conservatives cling to the status quo. Both parties want war and imperialism. The Ron Paul movement is popular because it represents a libertarian movement.
Maybe to some, but not to others. The principles Dr. Paul holds, with few exceptions, are the very same that traditional conservatives used to hold. Some still do.


I understand clinging to the term conservative because we can on fiscall topics; but the fact is we can't claim conservative when it comes to foreign policy.
The knuckle-dragging conservatives have owned the warfare state.
That's not true at all. Ron Paul has talked about it many times, or Jack Hunter covered it pretty fully in his speech at Ron's Rally. You may want to go listen to it on CSPAN.


Try and convince McCain he was in Viet-Nam for bad reasons. Go on, try it.
McCain is not now, nor has he ever been a conservative.

Remember that there are different factions in the Republican Party.

[moostraks]

We share a great deal in common with rank-and-file Republicans, actually. Which is why so many of them receive Rand Paul and Thomas Massie so well. The biggest issue is that they don't realize that they are not walking their talk. I credit FOX news with most of that, because FOX has done everything they could to create an irrational fear of Muslims. They're coming around though. Slowly, but surely...

Some folks here share much in common with rank and file Democrats. Freedom is popular. Your attitude that everyone must behave so as not to step on Republican toes is demanding that your pov takes precedence. Your disgust and shaming of anyone who doesn't support your position is frustrating later dialogue when you might need help. The Republican RP supporters are going to have to find a way to seperate themselves from those who are on the the other side of the aisle without making such a ridiculous production in places like RP forums where there is a broad spectrum of RP supporters. Since the teaparty is an accepted name in Republican circles maybe associating with that label is more beneficial? Just tossing around some ideas...We have to get past the labels here if this forum is going to be productive at all and learn to live our beliefs of liberty for all not just those that resemble our own personal lifestyle choices.Easier said than done.

[moostraks]

Y'all, I was actually there as a delegate.

Those Code Pink assholes had GREEN CREDENTIALS. Green credentials = PRESS.

The media set that stunt up. Not Ron Paul supporters.

Now that doesn't surprise me at all. It sure is working wonders at causing strife here.

[PatriotOne]

Y'all, I was actually there as a delegate.

Those Code Pink assholes had GREEN CREDENTIALS. Green credentials = PRESS.

The media set that stunt up. Not Ron Paul supporters.

Hmmmmmm.......I've been sceptical that the report of a Ron Paul supporter giving away their pass to a Code Pinker was even true. Sounded like a set up to me from the start.

[acptulsa]

How can we express the idea of a Formerly Divided and Conquered Americans From Both Sides of 'The Aisle' Now United For Peace Party in two words or less?

[LibertyEagle]

Some folks here share much in common with rank and file Democrats. Freedom is popular. Your attitude that everyone must behave so as not to step on Republican toes is demanding that your pov takes precedence. Your disgust and shaming of anyone who doesn't support your position is frustrating later dialogue when you might need help.
First of all, how about you stop calling it my position? It was Ron Paul's chosen strategy and what he suggested we do. If you do not want to partake, fine. That's your business.


The Republican RP supporters are going to have to find a way to seperate themselves from those who are on the the other side of the aisle without making such a ridiculous production in places like RP forums where there is a broad spectrum of RP supporters.

That sounds rather ignorant, to me. Why would people need to shut up or compartmentalize themselves who are continuing with Ron's strategy? Does it make you angry or something that some are doing this?


Since the teaparty is an accepted name in Republican circles maybe associating with that label is more beneficial?

Uh, are you honestly suggesting that those of us who plan on keeping our Republican registrations be kicked off this forum? Seriously?


Just tossing around some ideas...We have to get past the labels here if this forum is going to be productive at all and learn to live our beliefs of liberty for all not just those that resemble our own personal lifestyle choices.Easier said than done.

Freedom is popular?

Is it that you want to work within the Democratic Party instead? If so, I will support that. Parties are just mechanisms to get our guys elected, anyway. Once upon a time we figured out how to co-exist, surely we can figure that out again. I personally wish the idea of "parties" would just go away, but as long as we have them, we have to work with the way it is.

[LibertyEagle]

How can we express the idea of a Formerly Divided and Conquered Americans From Both Sides of 'The Aisle' Now United For Peace Party in two words or less?

We were referring to everyone as part of the liberty movement.

[moostraks]

First of all, how about you stop calling it my position? It was Ron Paul's chosen strategy and what he suggested we do. If you do not want to partake, fine. That's your business.



That sounds rather ignorant, to me. Why would people need to shut up or compartmentalize themselves who are continuing with Ron's strategy? Does it make you angry or something that some are doing this?



Uh, are you honestly suggesting that those of us who plan on keeping our Republican registrations be kicked off this forum? Seriously?



Freedom is popular?

Where in the hell do you come up with the idea I said to kick Republicans off the forum? You efforts to misconstrue are just mindblowing. I was trying to suggest a means by which you can keep your street cred with the Republicans you are so afraid of offending in your elbow rubbing efforts to get liberty candidates in. I am not compartmentalizing, you are demanding people give up their own issues to support only the issues that further your goals because they are embarassing your people. Stop putting words in my mouth. The only person I have seen to constantly be demanding to shut people up on this board is you...

eta...I think it is really funny you cling to Ron Paul picking the Republican party to mount his efforts after the man had left the party to be a libertarian and then returned and then makes statements such as the party is largely irrelevant. I don't think you will ever get it. It isn't about RP. You have picked your postion but you fight for liberty by demanding others concede their right to self determination as a symbol of fidelity as it serves your purpose. He chose his battleground and he wanted people to join his efforts as there is strength in numbers. He was also wise enough to know that not everyone could or would choose to be a republican and he sure wouldn't waste all his energy trying to humiliate those who disagree with his party of choice because true liberty involves respecting others to have their own paths to follow. If we have faith in our convictions that we are on the right path then we also need to realize it will be a stronger movement if we offer our knowledge to everyone not just those who can wear the Republican brand name.

[moostraks]

How can we express the idea of a Formerly Divided and Conquered Americans From Both Sides of 'The Aisle' Now United For Peace Party in two words or less?:)

[Pericles]

It was blowback. They crapped on our delegates so the reward was a disruption. It wasn't a blanket endorsement of code pink.

Don't send someone else to deliver a message that you should send yourself. The message will get lost in translation.

[Pericles]

You are listing the reasons why clinging to the Republican party like beaten wife is a bad idea. You just do not realize it.

For most of us that are anti-war, you have understand why we are anti-war. This is a moral issue and I (many of us) WILL NOT be quiet about it. It is not acceptable to be pro war. And for that reason I do not belong in the Republican party. The speech McCain gave during the RNC represented the opinions of most Republicans I know, except for our irate minority. He listed off multiple genocides he hopes to accomplish before he dies and sounded like he'd haunt the GOP when he does die to make sure it continues. When McCain was the nominee, foreign policy was considered his strong point by republican voters. This is not the party for me. Ron Paul is an anomaly.

it is possible to get 75% to 90% libertarians elected (see Rand Paul, Mike Lee, etc.). In a rare instance, you can get a 95%+ libertarian elected. Would you think that we will be better off with a senate of 60 Rand Pauls, Mike Lees, maybe some Ted Cruz s, or 60 Hatchs and McConnels?

[moostraks]

Don't send someone else to deliver a message that you should send yourself. The message will get lost in translation.

Well the funny thing would be if the pp is correct that it was a press pass. If it was then we can have twenty pages of whether it was a closet RP media supporter or a media conspiracy. I should have put wasn't neccessarily a blanket endorsement as with RP supporters you just never know.

[fr33]

it is possible to get 75% to 90% libertarians elected (see Rand Paul, Mike Lee, etc.). In a rare instance, you can get a 95%+ libertarian elected. Would you think that we will be better off with a senate of 60 Rand Pauls, Mike Lees, maybe some Ted Cruz s, or 60 Hatchs and McConnels?

All those you've listed are not good on foreign policy and serve as proof that the Republican party has no room for anti-war people.

[Pericles]

All those you've listed are not good on foreign policy and serve as proof that the Republican party has no room for anti-war people.

That is about to take care of itself in one of 3 ways:

(1) The country goes bankrupt. Once the credit card is turned off, no more toys for the Pentagon.

(2) The Army is worn out and can't sustain another conflict. I see the same breakdown occurring as did at the end of Vietnam.

(3) There will be a great deal of unpleasantness in towns close to us, that make fighting foreign wars impractical.

[moostraks]

That is about to take care of itself in one of 3 ways:

(1) The country goes bankrupt. Once the credit card is turned off, no more toys for the Pentagon.

(2) The Army is worn out and can't sustain another conflict. I see the same breakdown occurring as did at the end of Vietnam.

(3) There will be a great deal of unpleasantness in towns close to us, that make fighting foreign wars impractical.

2 could be solved through a draft and 3 is being solved by a militarized police force. Our greatest hope is 1 but that is surely nothing anyone wants to happen and I find it difficult to fathom it happening in a manner that would lead to less war and not more war.

[Revolution9]

Yeah,, that's not true.. If you were only interested in Winning you would be working for Obama.

The GOP is good at losing all on their own.

Obama just had a 35 million mansion bought under the table by him in Oahu with the move in date being January 2013. You may be wrong in your assumptions.

This is the joint...

http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/Real-Estate/July-2011/As-seen-on-Hawaii-Five-0-Fantastic-Kailua-estate/

Rev9

[pcosmar]

it is possible to get 75% to 90% libertarians elected (see Rand Paul, Mike Lee, etc.). In a rare instance, you can get a 95%+ libertarian elected. Would you think that we will be better off with a senate of 60 Rand Pauls, Mike Lees, maybe some Ted Cruz s, or 60 Hatchs and McConnels?

It really does not matter at all if the heads of the party dictate policy,, and if those heads are neither elected nor interested in the opinions of the voters.
As it is now.

It took well over 100 years to get to this point., I have seen over 40 years of that..

We don't have another 40 to get it back,, each year gets exponentially worse.
the last 10 on a truly frightening scale. Romney or Obama make no difference at all,, I see nothing good in the next 4.

[Pericles]

2 could be solved through a draft and 3 is being solved by a militarized police force. Our greatest hope is 1 but that is surely nothing anyone wants to happen and I find it difficult to fathom it happening in a manner that would lead to less war and not more war.

You can draft privates, but the breakdown is in the officer ranks, and the NCOs are getting screwed over in the process. The problem is in the organization with institutional structural failure, not in the lack of manpower. You can't draft equipment that is being used well beyond repair and rebuild cycles. That come back to point 1 - medium to large scale war is not sustainable because of the expense of the American way of war.

The thin blue line is really thin. Look at security for the conventions - they import police from several states, look at a major riot, and see how many agencies end up supplying personnel. The system can barely handle one major incident at a time. Escalate that by a factor of 3 or 4 and it breaks.

[pcosmar]

Obama just had a 35 million mansion bought under the table by him in Oahu with the move in date being January 2013. You may be wrong in your assumptions.


Rev9
I may be,, true enough.. I am imperfect, and make no claim otherwise.
But if that is so,, it suggests a prearranged changing of the diaper.

so who is winning?

[LibertyEagle]

Where in the hell do you come up with the idea I said to kick Republicans off the forum? You efforts to misconstrue are just mindblowing. I was trying to suggest a means by which you can keep your street cred with the Republicans you are so afraid of offending in your elbow rubbing efforts to get liberty candidates in. I am not compartmentalizing, you are demanding people give up their own issues to support only the issues that further your goals because they are embarassing your people. Stop putting words in my mouth. The only person I have seen to constantly be demanding to shut people up on this board is you...

eta...I think it is really funny you cling to Ron Paul picking the Republican party to mount his efforts after the man had left the party to be a libertarian and then returned and then makes statements such as the party is largely irrelevant. I don't think you will ever get it. It isn't about RP. You have picked your postion but you fight for liberty by demanding others concede their right to self determination as a symbol of fidelity as it serves your purpose. He chose his battleground and he wanted people to join his efforts as there is strength in numbers. He was also wise enough to know that not everyone could or would choose to be a republican and he sure wouldn't waste all his energy trying to humiliate those who disagree with his party of choice because true liberty involves respecting others to have their own paths to follow. If we have faith in our convictions that we are on the right path then we also need to realize it will be a stronger movement if we offer our knowledge to everyone not just those who can wear the Republican brand name.

You know, moostracks, if instead of going on the attack and personally insulting me, you would have spent your time trying to clarify what you were talking about, this would have gone a lot smoother. I never realized that you wanted to work in the Democratic Party instead. You should have just said that and I would have understood.

But, what I said in my initial post still stands. If we are trying to get a liberty candidate elected in the Republican Party, then it's not a good idea to carry a Code Pink sign in one hand and that candidate's sign in the other. In the same way, that holding a tea party sign while working for a Democratic liberty candidate wouldn't be bright either.

Is that fair?

[Occam's Banana]

Wow...just wow you are being ignorant. It was a matter of making a correlation between something most people find so morally repugnant they would not want to associate with it because they cannot seem to be able to grasp the reaction of those who do not want to associate with the republican party because of how heinous they view the republican partiy's behavior. Stop being so paranoid. I did not say the republican party was the nazi party. Major reading comprehension fail...

I did not say that you said "the [R]epublican party was the [N]azi party."

I said that you "all but explicitly" accused a group of people of being the moral equivalent of Nazi collaborators (and then hypocritically criticized them for being judgemental - a point I notice you have completely ignored).

And that is *exactly* what you did. And you're doing it again here: "It [is] a matter of making a correlation between something most people find [...] morally repugnant [i.e., working within the Nazi party]" and working within the Republican party (whose behavior is "heinous").

You do not get to say that you "correlate" moral revulsion at the idea of working within the Nazi party with moral revulsion at the idea of working within the "heinous" Republican party - and then turn around and say that you are not implying that working within the Republican party is the moral equivalent of working within the Nazi party. That is *exactly* what you are implying, whether you wish to recognize it or not.

You also need to do some serious work on clarifying the antecedents of your pronouns. You use the word "they" three times in the same sentence to refer to two different groups of people. You also use the word "between" without follwing it, at some point, with a conjuction such as "and" (as in "between [something] and [something else]"). In fact, your whole second sentence is a wretchedly jumbled train-wreck of words. (These things make one look rather foolish when one presumes to lecture others on their reading comprehension skills.)

And just for the record: Yes. Yes, I might very well be willing to work within the Nazi party - if I thought I could do anything to mitigate or counteract its evil. Oskar Schindler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler) did. So did John Rabe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe). So your attempt to play the Nazi card is a fail.

[moostraks]

It seems pretty clear to me. In politics, perception is everything. And Republicans, rightly or wrongly, see themselves as being for the Constitution, states' rights, liberty and all the rest. (stop laughing) They see liberals as those people who want big government, more and more handouts and are fine with our country being taken over by the new version of Communism. Which in their mind are the evil islamofascists (sic). They see groups like Code Pink as being a liberal group promoting those concepts and will consider anyone who aligns themselves with such groups as being liberal too.

As long as we are trying to get our liberty candidates elected to office through the Republican Party, our candidates have to appeal to Republicans in order to win their primaries.

If we want to be helpful in getting our guys elected, it's probably not a good idea to associate the liberty movement with known liberal groups.


Talk about misconstruing. You are the king of that.

I don't give a rat's ass about the Republican Party and I have said that like a thousand times.

It is only a vehicle for getting our liberty candidates elected and guess what, it has been WORKING.

What about that do you not understand?

Yes, Ron Paul left the Republican Party once for a very short time, but he came back to it, because he chose it as the best vehicle for him to use.

Your hate for the Republican Party is clouding your eyes. With few exceptions, I don't think anyone here has much love loss for the R Party at all and certainly not after the RNC. What I posted in my initial post in this thread was about STRATEGY. I had the audacity to suggest that for those using the Republican Party, it probably isn't helpful to hook up with Code Pink. How dare I say such a thing!!! omg, omg, omg, omg.....

If you want to use a different approach, GO FOR IT. Nowhere have I said that you needed to follow a certain course. My only concern is that if we split up too much, we won't be nearly as successful. But, people need to do what they need to do. It wasn't too long ago that we were supporting a Democrat on here who had good credentials and that's great. Just spread the message the way you deem best.

I am picking just one post from the multitude to point out where you make your strategy "our" strategy and then you usually proceed to berate anyone who disagrees with you. You have come on a thread that some people have tried to form an alliance of ideas that are different from yours and try to browbeat them over having a different strategy (in this case using liberal groups to force ideas through that we want to get attention). With me I came on this morning in yet another failed attempt to try and provide a suggestion to you over working within your chosen party while trying to work with others and you have jumped my stuff and told me I am trying to silence you.You aren't listening to what people are trying to say and causing people to waste their time try to defend what they haven't said. No wonder your post count is so high!

[LibertyEagle]

I am picking just one post from the multitude to point out where you make your strategy "our" strategy and then you usually proceed to berate anyone who disagrees with you. You have come on a thread that some people have tried to form an alliance of ideas that are different from yours and try to browbeat them over having a different strategy (in this case using liberal groups to force ideas through that we want to get attention). With me I came on this morning in yet another failed attempt to try and provide a suggestion to you over working within your chosen party while trying to work with others and you have jumped my stuff and told me I am trying to silence you.You aren't listening to what people are trying to say and causing people to waste their time try to defend what they haven't said. No wonder your post count is so high!

I edited my post, so you may want to go read that. But, I will remind you that this thread was about what may have happened at the REPUBLICAN National Convention; not the Democratic National Convention. So, you coming in here and having a temper tantrum because you do not want to work in the Republican Party is a complete FAIL.

[moostraks]

You know, moostracks, if instead of going on the attack and personally insulting me, you would have spent your time trying to clarify what you were talking about, this would have gone a lot smoother. I never realized that you wanted to work in the Democratic Party instead. You should have just said that and I would have understood.

But, what I said in my initial post still stands. If we are trying to get a liberty candidate elected in the Republican Party, then it's not a good idea to carry a Code Pink sign in one hand and that candidate's sign in the other. In the same way, that holding a tea party sign while working for a Democratic liberty candidate wouldn't be bright either.

Is that fair?It would be fair to those who want to work the other side. I still don't know where I fit. I am one of those left outside. I cannot support Republicans because of the war issue and I cannot support Democrats over the abortion issue. I guess I am irrelevant. I can see the damage being done when all we do here is argue over strategy and it breaks my heart because we get nowhere on the issues we agree upon. I wish you would reread my first post today to you and try to lighten up on me attacking you. I think you are so frustrated you see things that aren't there or I really am just too tired to be coherant...

[moostraks]

I edited my post, so you may want to go read that. But, I will remind you that this thread was about what may have happened at the REPUBLICAN National Convention; not the Democratic National Convention. So, you coming in here and having a temper tantrum because you do not want to work in the Republican Party is a complete FAIL. lay off with the loaded words you really are just trying to push buttons...

eta...I don't think you heard some of the folks here but let me try again. They worked in the Republican party for the express purpose of getting Ron Paul elected. By sending Code Pink in (if in fact it was a RP supporter) they were attempting to teach a lesson in blowback. Initially I thought maybe as a means to be disruptiveand they were disgruntled Republicans and then yes you would be right but the more I thought over it there is a large possibility (if it were a RP supporter) that they were likewise looking to spit on the Republicans with a group they feel some alliance with, so strategy would be to use it for the two party wedge to make inroads elsewhere. It would send the message that the Republican party has lost supporters they could have had if they would have been respectful. Someone threw the first punch and it wasn't the RP supporters.

[angelatc]

Y

But, what I said in my initial post still stands. If we are trying to get a liberty candidate elected in the Republican Party, then it's not a good idea to carry a Code Pink sign in one hand and that candidate's sign in the other. In the same way, that holding a tea party sign while working for a Democratic liberty candidate wouldn't be bright either.



Boehner has referred to the TEA Party as a bunch of knuckle draggers, and heavens knows that there's a lot of people here who absolutely and immediately denounce anything the TEA Party does.

The problem is partially that because the Paul campaign is distancing themselves from the antiwar movement, the IVAW becomes irrelevant if they don't occasionally join forces with left-leaning anti war groups. There's no other anti-war candidate out there.

I have to wonder of Code Pink gets even 25% of the squawking from the left for hanging out with Kokesh.

[acptulsa]

Obama just had a 35 million mansion bought under the table by him in Oahu with the move in date being January 2013. You may be wrong in your assumptions.

This is the joint...

http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/Real-Estate/July-2011/As-seen-on-Hawaii-Five-0-Fantastic-Kailua-estate/

Rev9

Let's see. A retired president gets a pension of $191,300 per year. So, he should have it paid off in only 183 years--if he does without utilities and doesn't bother to pay his taxes.

I presume he has managed to get himself a food stamp card...

[moostraks]

I did not say that you said "the [R]epublican party was the [N]azi party."

I said that you "all but explicitly" accused a group of people of being the moral equivalent of Nazi collaborators (and then hypocritically criticized them for being judgemental - a point I notice you have completely ignored).

And that is *exactly* what you did. And you're doing it again here: "It [is] a matter of making a correlation between something most people find [...] morally repugnant [i.e., working within the Nazi party]" and working within the Republican party (whose behavior is "heinous").

You do not get to say that you "correlate" moral revulsion at the idea of working within the Nazi party with moral revulsion at the idea of working within the "heinous" Republican party - and then turn around and say that you are not implying that working within the Republican party is the moral equivalent of working within the Nazi party. That is *exactly* what you are implying, whether you wish to recognize it or not.

You also need to do some serious work on clarifying the antecedents of your pronouns. You use the word "they" three times in the same sentence to refer to two different groups of people. You also use the word "between" without follwing it, at some point, with a conjuction such as "and" (as in "between [something] and [something else]"). In fact, your whole second sentence is a wretchedly jumbled train-wreck of words. (These things make one look rather foolish when one presumes to lecture others on their reading comprehension skills.)

And just for the record: Yes. Yes, I might very well be willing to work within the Nazi party - if I thought I could do anything to mitigate or counteract its evil. Oskar Schindler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler) did. So did John Rabe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe). So your attempt to play the Nazi card is a fail.

1-Point out the sentence you had a problem with as I am not seeing it. Sorry if I was not expressly clear. I reread the post you were arguing and I am not seeing the sentence to which you were referring. Usually I type while breatfeeding and it has been two years since I had a decent night's sleep. So clarity might be at a low point from time to time.
2-If you are repulsed by the analogy then it was effective at portraying the point. You are going in the weeds on your argument.
3-If you would work with the Nazi party and not feel repulsed by furthering their ideals for a few crumbs then your moral compass is so far off from mine we will never find agreement.

eta-I can describe the pain of childbirth by likening it to a horrible stomach ache in trying to describe the cramping. It does not diminish the strength of the women who give birth but rather brings something unfamiliar to a frame of reference that is familiar. Childbirth is not equivalent to stomach aches but they are similar.

[LibertyEagle]

Boehner has referred to the TEA Party as a bunch of knuckle draggers, and heavens knows that there's a lot of people here who absolutely and immediately denounce anything the TEA Party does.
Yes, they do. Personally, I think some of them are low-hanging fruit. But, whatever. It oftentimes seems strange to me that some of the same people on here (not you) who have ripped Republicans and anyone else who isn't a full-fledged libertarian, up one side and down the other, are so shocked when those same Republicans do not rollout the red carpet for them.


The problem is partially that because the Paul campaign is distancing themselves from the antiwar movement,
I didn't notice the campaign distancing themselves from being against war.


the IVAW becomes irrelevant if they don't occasionally join forces with left-leaning anti war groups. There's no other anti-war candidate out there.
Oh, I understand. But, it also makes them not very useful in getting through to Republicans. But, hopefully they are helpful in getting through to Dems and others.


I have to wonder of Code Pink gets even 25% of the squawking from the left for hanging out with Kokesh.
Didn't Kokesh just get through denouncing Ron Paul?

Assuming that didn't happen, I would imagine that there would have been plenty squawking if Ron Paul looked like he had a chance in hell and was pulling Democrats away from Obama.

[moostraks]

You can draft privates, but the breakdown is in the officer ranks, and the NCOs are getting screwed over in the process. The problem is in the organization with institutional structural failure, not in the lack of manpower. You can't draft equipment that is being used well beyond repair and rebuild cycles. That come back to point 1 - medium to large scale war is not sustainable because of the expense of the American way of war.

The thin blue line is really thin. Look at security for the conventions - they import police from several states, look at a major riot, and see how many agencies end up supplying personnel. The system can barely handle one major incident at a time. Escalate that by a factor of 3 or 4 and it breaks.

I understand the points you are making. I can also see that there is still some time before utter collapse would occur. So every death from wars promoted between now and when the collapse occurs is on the shoulders of those professing loyalty to the offending party.

[LibertyEagle]

I understand the points you are making. I can also see that there is still some time before utter collapse would occur. So every death from wars promoted between now and when the collapse occurs is on the shoulders of those professing loyalty to the offending party.

Actually, I think it would be on those people and anyone else who is not working to get the foreign policy changed.

[moostraks]

Actually, I think it would be on those people and anyone else who is not working to get the foreign policy changed.

I think it has become so wrapped up in the identity of the party(s). Each is bombing for their own reasons. May those who work to change foreign policy be blessed in their endeavors I just think it is a deciding factor for many who are looking at the short list of goals and don't want to be identified with promoting them. If I say I am from a particular party one immediately forms a mental identity. The whole purpose for membership is for furthering this identity. If there was more flux on this issue then anti war people would probably choose to affiliate more readily. It seems the anti war crowd is being silenced by ostracizing them.

[sanssq]

Left" and "Right", "Conservative" and "Liberal" have been distorted by the media and the political machines. Since the media loves big government, both "sides" now mean different versions of big government. Ironically, there is very little difference between these versions and thy both collaborate.

[FrankRep]

Left" and "Right", "Conservative" and "Liberal" have been distorted by the media and the political machines.

Those labels have no concrete definitions and their meanings change over time.

[LibertyEagle]

I think it has become so wrapped up in the identity of the party(s). Each is bombing for their own reasons. May those who work to change foreign policy be blessed in their endeavors I just think it is a deciding factor for many who are looking at the short list of goals and don't want to be identified with promoting them. If I say I am from a particular party one immediately forms a mental identity. The whole purpose for membership is for furthering this identity. If there was more flux on this issue then anti war people would probably choose to affiliate more readily. It seems the anti war crowd is being silenced by ostracizing them.

I call myself a Ron Paul Republican. Anyone who would be asking me what political party I am in, would understand that designation.

Beyond that, I don't care what people think. I know who I am and for what I stand and do not need anyone's blessing.

[Revolution9]

Let's see. A retired president gets a pension of $191,300 per year. So, he should have it paid off in only 183 years--if he does without utilities and doesn't bother to pay his taxes.

I presume he has managed to get himself a food stamp card...

He got a huge slush fund of over 2 billion at The Vatican Banque. Food stamps are underwritten or whatever the fuck it is called.. by Goldman Sacks..so yeah..big food stamp card.

Rev9

[pcosmar]

Those labels have no concrete definitions and their meanings change over time.

Thank you. and I agree.

They are used as often to degenerate as to describe. And yes,, they have become pretty much meaningless.

[moostraks]

I call myself a Ron Paul Republican. Anyone who would be asking me what political party I am in, would understand that designation.

Beyond that, I don't care what people think. I know who I am and for what I stand and do not need anyone's blessing.

But you do care what they (rank and file Republicans) think about what other Ron Paul supporters do. You highlighted a portion of the thought but the point was in the unhighlighted text:

The whole purpose for membership is for furthering this identity.

They (rank and file repubs) want the brand of strength through force pushed. Antiwar is a sign of pacifism and weakness. They beat their chests and crow about American exceptionalism as a right to abuse others. You might want to change foreign policy but the so called liberty candidates in the party are even questionable on the issue. So as the republican party continues to beat the war drum a blooming membership implies some form of agreement with war policies and gives the perception that the public agrees with their behavior and that in turn draws like to like. This is in part why many are leaving the party. There was one antiwar candidate and if membership drops maybe it can signify a true disgust from the public kwim?

[Occam's Banana]

1-Point out the sentence you had a problem with as I am not seeing it.

HERE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622583&viewfull=1#post4622583) "It was a matter of making a correlation between something most people find so morally repugnant they would not want to associate with it because they cannot seem to be able to grasp the reaction of those who do not want to associate with the republican party because of how heinous they view the republican partiy's behavior."


2-If you are repulsed by the analogy then it was effective at portraying the point. You are going in the weeds on your argument.

I am not repulsed by the analogy and it wasn't effective at illustrating anything (except your intense dislike of the Republican party - which I happen to share, BTW).

HERE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4618848&viewfull=1#post4618848) you (1) implied that working in the Republican party is morally equivalent to working in the Nazi party and (2) chided other people for "casting judgement."

THEN (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622205&viewfull=1#post4622205) I pointed out that you were being hypocritical (because you yourself were "casting judgement" by using the Nazi analogy - while telling other people not to cast judgement).

THEN (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622583&viewfull=1#post4622583) you claimed that you had not implied what I said you had implied.

THEN (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622746&viewfull=1#post4622746) I pointed out (1) that you *had* implied it, whether you realized it or not, and (2) that you *still* hadn't adressed my original point (about hypocrisy).

So I am not clear on what "weeds" you think I have gotten into.


3-If you would work with the Nazi party and not feel repulsed by furthering their ideals for a few crumbs then your moral compass is so far off from mine we will never find agreement.

Who said anything about not feeling repulsed?

Oskar Schindler was a well-connected, influence-wielding member of the Nazi party. He was disgusted & horrified by what the Nazis were doing. And it is *precisely* because of the fact that he *was* a member of the Nazi party that he was able to use his connections & influence to save the lives of over a thousand Jews.

Do you dismiss the lives of over 1,000 human beings as nothing more than "a few crumbs?" If you are really serious about what you said above, then you must.

Do you think that Schindler should have given in to his feelings of repulsion, and that he should have quit (or never have joined) the Nazi party - thereby dooming over 1,000 men, women & children to horrible deaths? If you are really serious about what you said above, then you must.

If your moral compass tells you that Oskar Schindler ought to have refused to have anything at all to do with the Nazi party once he realized just how evil it was - well, then, I guess you're right: your moral compass is so far off from mine that we are virtually on seperate planets.

Running away from evil because you are repulsed by it is not moral - it's cowardly.

[moostraks]

HERE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622583&viewfull=1#post4622583) "It was a matter of making a correlation between something most people find so morally repugnant they would not want to associate with it because they cannot seem to be able to grasp the reaction of those who do not want to associate with the republican party because of how heinous they view the republican partiy's behavior."



I am not repulsed by the analogy and it wasn't effective at illustrating anything (except your intense dislike of the Republican party - which I happen to share, BTW).

HERE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4618848&viewfull=1#post4618848) you (1) implied that working in the Republican party is morally equivalent to working in the Nazi party and (2) chided other people for "casting judgement."

THEN (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622205&viewfull=1#post4622205) I pointed out that you were being hypocritical (because you yourself were "casting judgement" by using the Nazi analogy - while telling other people not to cast judgement).

THEN (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622583&viewfull=1#post4622583) you claimed that you had not implied what I said you had implied.

THEN (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?388282-Helping-Code-Pink-quot-More-Proof-Ron-Paul-Supporters-Are-Not-Conservative-quot&p=4622746&viewfull=1#post4622746) I pointed out (1) that you *had* implied it, whether you realized it or not, and (2) that you *still* hadn't adressed my original point (about hypocrisy).

So I am not clear on what "weeds" you think I have gotten into.



Who said anything about not feeling repulsed?

Oskar Schindler was a well-connected, influence-wielding member of the Nazi party. He was disgusted & horrified by what the Nazis were doing. And it is *precisely* because of the fact that he *was* a member of the Nazi party that he was able to use his connections & influence to save the lives of over a thousand Jews.

Do you dismiss the lives of over 1,000 human beings as nothing more than "a few crumbs?" If you are really serious about what you said above, then you must.

Do you think that Schindler should have given in to his feelings of repulsion, and that he should have quit (or never have joined) the Nazi party - thereby dooming over 1,000 men, women & children to horrible deaths? If you are really serious about what you said above, then you must.

If your moral compass tells you that Oskar Schindler ought to have refused to have anything at all to do with the Nazi party once he realized just how evil it was - well, then, I guess you're right: your moral compass is so far off from mine that we are virtually on seperate planets.

Running away from evil because you are repulsed by it is not moral - it's cowardly.

Wow what a waste of my time this is! I already explained how making a point by using something most people can reference is not the same as saying the issues are equal but merely similar in reactions. Do you think saying a stomach ache is like labor pains makes the two matters equal? I am still not equating the two matters but merely the revulsion (the reaction) in question to give a frame of reference for posters who cannot seem to get why their particular chosen path is so uncoscionable to others. It ain't hypocritical to tell others to have peace on their path and wish them luck (as I have) while disagreeing with their decision and asking for them to be less judgemental of others. (And for the record I have been sitting on the fence about the GOP. It is people who keep making such a stink over loyalty that have me evaluating the issue on many levels. Well, that and some exposure again to rank and file republicans that nauseate me...)

The sentence you are complaining about causing confusion was after the point you made in which you were confusing matters. So your reading comprehension problem was on something that was written clearly. As a person who usually goes to some length to be clear, I screw up on a sentence like that once in a blue moon, in the midst of what I do while posting, well, I am surprised it ain't more often. That was pretty ugly, I will give you that...Lol! Most of the theys are consistent but the thought was a running stream of conscience without a reread before posting. Sue me...

Your point about Schindler is an interesting one. However, (*my opinion alert*) joining evil makes one culpable for the evil to which one has allied with no matter how much justification you try to make for the position. How much harm one does by going along with certain grey issues to get in a position of respect such that one can be trusted and then perform the big switcheroo is the problem. Respected guest of the SS doesn't get to be so without having the ability to stroke feathers. How much harm that ego stroking could be traced to have caused may outweigh how one views the good done. We each seek our path in this world in this world and have different opinions on how we should operate. We (you and I) are on two different pages.

BTW it ain't running away when one chooses to not support a bad group and it certainly isn't cowardly. Talk about peer pressure!

[pcosmar]

Code Pink Protesting at DNC.
First stories,, because you asked,,

A surreal start to the Democratic National Convention
http://www.sfgate.com/nation/slideshow/A-surreal-start-to-the-Democratic-National-48386.php
http://www.wbtv.com/story/19439038/protesters-gather-in-frazier-park-prepare-to-march-into-uptown
http://www.wltx.com/news/article/200213/2/Protestors-March-In-Charlotte-Ahead-of-DNC


Others marched for peace. Alli McCracken with CODEPINK traveled to Charlotte after protesting at the Republican National Convention in Tampa, Florida.

"It's time to get the corporate money out of politics and end the wars abroad. We need to hold the Obama Administration accountable for all the wars he is perpetuating that started in the Bush Administration," said McCracken.

http://dailydot.s3.amazonaws.com/uploaded/images/original/2012/9/2/gickr.com_4328fd3b-aa55-c1f4-b978-cf4a25a43c05.gif

I'm sure there will be more.

[AuH20]

But you do care what they (rank and file Republicans) think about what other Ron Paul supporters do. You highlighted a portion of the thought but the point was in the unhighlighted text:


They (rank and file repubs) want the brand of strength through force pushed. Antiwar is a sign of pacifism and weakness. They beat their chests and crow about American exceptionalism as a right to abuse others. You might want to change foreign policy but the so called liberty candidates in the party are even questionable on the issue. So as the republican party continues to beat the war drum a blooming membership implies some form of agreement with war policies and gives the perception that the public agrees with their behavior and that in turn draws like to like. This is in part why many are leaving the party. There was one antiwar candidate and if membership drops maybe it can signify a true disgust from the public kwim?

It actually is quite honestly. It's the equivalent to hanging a sign outside your door proclaiming that there is a plenty of jewelry inside and that you are unarmed. Only a fool would rashly commit themselves prematurely to either absolute position, whether it be dove or neocon intellectual. Go start looking for fights around the world and you're bound to run into a superior opponent. Cower from the sight of your own shadow and you're bound to sheared in time by a nearby predator. That's why I am not anti-war. I classify myself more as an anti-imperialist.

[moostraks]

It actually is quite honestly. It's the equivalent to hanging a sign outside your door proclaiming that there is a plenty of jewelry inside and that you are unarmed. Only a fool would rashly commit themselves prematurely to either absolute position, whether it be dove or neocon intellectual. Go start looking for fights around the world and you're bound to run into a superior opponent. Cower from the sight of your own shadow and you're bound to sheared in time by a nearby predator. That's why I am not anti-war. I classify myself more as an anti-imperialist.

Pacifism is being so antiwar you would allow self harm not the same thing but they do have similar goals an end to the war violence. So all pacifists would be antiwar but not all antiwar would be pacifists. If I cannot trust my government why should I offer myself or my children based upon their word the fight is necessary? The cowards are those that wage wars because they lack the intellect to work out disagreements through a means other than brute force. The non-resistant believers came to America and were able to survive without weapons and violence and continue to thrive to this day.

"Of the tyrant, spies and informers are the principal instruments. War is his favorite occupation, for the sake of engrossing the attention of the people, and making himself necessary to them as their leader."
-- Aristotle (384-322 BC)