USADA to strip Lance Armstrong of 7 Tour titles

[RCA]

How is the USADA constitutional? There weren't even Olympics in 1776.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/usada-strip-lance-armstrong-7-tour-titles-031949504--spt.html

[RickyJ]

Many other cyclists and supporters of the sport have said he was doping too. I think he probably was, but honestly, I don't care. Most people will cheat if they think they can get away with it, that is a fact, and I am sure he wasn't the only one doing it.

[LibertyEagle]

That's sad.

[jkob]

The USADA is sham organization, they get there man they always do in there witch hunts.

[UtahApocalypse]

Love how organizations think they can rewrite history.

[specsaregood]

That's sad.

I think its disgusting. The guy passed hundreds of tests and the only evidence I've heard of is claims from people.

[LibertyEagle]

I think its disgusting. The guy passed hundreds of tests and the only evidence I've heard of is claims from people.

That's what I really meant. I am just sad about what they did to him.

He lives in Austin and so do I.

[specsaregood]

That's what I really meant. I am just sad about what they did to him.

He lives in Austin and so do I.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/25473825.jpg

[Tod]

If they didn't have enough evidence to prove the charges, they should've dropped it. Instead, they just hound the guy until they wear him down and he just says, F*** it.

I don't know whether he was or wasn't, and obviously they don't either, so continually working him over amounts to nothing more than harrassment.

[Origanalist]

Travis Tygart, USADA's chief executive is a first class, tin horn tyrant. Give some no talent bureaucrat some power and authority and they turn into little Hitlers.



"I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999," he said. "The toll this has taken on my family and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today — finished with this nonsense."

USADA reacted quickly and treated Armstrong's decision as an admission of guilt, hanging the label of drug cheat on an athlete who was a hero to thousands for overcoming life-threatening testicular cancer and for his foundation's support for cancer research.



"USADA's conduct raises serious questions about whether its real interest in charging Armstrong is to combat doping, or if it is acting according to less noble motives," such as politics or publicity, U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks wrote.


"He had a right to contest the charges," WADA President John Fahey said after Armstrong's announcement. "He chose not to. The simple fact is that his refusal to examine the evidence means the charges had substance in them".

It's shit like this that keep good people from entering politics.

[coastie]

"He had a right to contest the charges," WADA President John Fahey said after Armstrong's announcement. "He chose not to. The simple fact is that his refusal to examine the evidence means the charges had substance in them".

Ah, I see now....Don't admit to or contest the charges against you = guilty.:confused:





I really need to win Powerball this weekend, and leave this shit hole forever.....:mad:

[jkr]

GUILTY UNTIL NOT PROVEN GUILTY

get it?

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Most people will cheat if they think they can get away with it, that is a fact


Is that really a "fact?" I had a better view of humanity than that.

[KingRobbStark]

You cant strip someone of previous wins. That doesn't make any sense.

[Cleaner44]

Why any athletes respond to any questions from politicians and such is completely baffling. If I were Lance Armstrong or Roger Clemons I would not even respond to their questions.

[Agorism]

I assume Lance is trying to challenge their authority.

[Bruno]

My gut feeling tells me he was doping the whole time, encouraged others to do so, most everyone in the top in this sport does it, and they all feel like they had to in order to win and compete at that level.

See: Baseball and steroids

[LibertyEagle]

Thing is, you have to have proof and they have NONE.

This action is so wrong.

[angelatc]

My husband follows sports, and he says they've been going after him for years. They've threatened to strip his teammates of their titles if they didn't roll on Armstrong.

Freaking amazing.

And he was sponsored by the USPS. :D

[angelatc]

My gut feeling tells me he was doping the whole time, encouraged others to do so, most everyone in the top in this sport does it, and they all feel like they had to in order to win and compete at that level.

See: Baseball and steroids

See: 500 clean tests aren't good enough?

[sparebulb]

I always had Lance figured to be a douche. I think that competitive cycling is for douches. These people have chosen dicks to overlord them with their professional organizations....

therefore, I'm going to sit back, relax, and watch what happens when a group of self-absorbed weenies go after each other. We will know that the show has reached its maximum irrelevance level when Obama steps in with a statement for peace and they appoint James Baker, Louie Freeh, or one of Olympic hero, Willard Romney's sons to straighten out the mess.

[PaulConventionWV]

That's sad.

I don't see it as sad. The evidence suggests that he was doping. Most of it was circumstantial, but it was still very strong evidence. There were samples that tested positive, but the samples weren't stored in the proper manner, so the evidence was dismissed.

This is HUGE in the world of sports. Lance is like a god among men in ALL kinds of athletics because he was just so far and beyond other people. Winning the Tour de France 7 times in a row when the previous record was 5 times in a row is just mind-bogglingly stupendous. To see him stripped of his titles to many is like seeing an angel fall from heaven.

Of course, one has to consider the fact that it is very likely that most of the top cyclists were dopers. If you believe what Landis had to say about the US team, then you would think this was completely justified based on what you heard. Landis admitted to doping and talked about times when they did it and Lance was there, doing it, too. He also mentioned parties with strippers and cocaine and a bunch of unethical stuff, including favoritism toward Lance. He got all the great bikes, the best assistance, the most money and support whereas other guys on the team had to follow. They were trained to help Lance win, according to Landis, not to actually vy for the title.

I'm just gobsmacked by this news. I would never have guessed someone of such status would suffer such a fall. When you get to the level of what Lance is like, it becomes so that nobody can question you. They can talk, but nothing ever gets done because nobody wants to make the controversial decision. What's more, Lance had money. He was protected by special interests and lots of money. He just went from god of athletics to the biggest disgrace in the history of the sport just because he got found out. There are certainly others who doped, but none of them attained the level of success that Lance did.

[PaulConventionWV]

If they didn't have enough evidence to prove the charges, they should've dropped it. Instead, they just hound the guy until they wear him down and he just says, F*** it.

I don't know whether he was or wasn't, and obviously they don't either, so continually working him over amounts to nothing more than harrassment.

The decision to strip him of his titles and earnings may have been delayed, but Lance has been widely suspected for a long time by many people. So much so, in fact, that "lanced" has become a popular term for someone who is using performance-enhancing drugs or testosterone-boosters. The evidence has been quite strong for a long time.

[PaulConventionWV]

Ah, I see now....Don't admit to or contest the charges against you = guilty.:confused:





I really need to win Powerball this weekend, and leave this shit hole forever.....:mad:

Yep, a no contest plea is a guilty plea. That's the way the legal system has always worked.

[PaulConventionWV]

You cant strip someone of previous wins. That doesn't make any sense.

It happens commonly in sports. It's becoming clear to me that many people don't really understand what just happened. Being stripped of a title is being stripped of recognition for a win. It happened in the last Olympics in 2008 when Rashid Ramzi won the gold medal in the 1500m run and then tested positive for steroids of some kind. If you do something extraordinary and people find out you cheated, do you think you still deserve to be recognized for it? It's like being found guilty of cheating in a court of law. If you are proven guilty, then you don't deserve the recognition. You are erased from the record books and, in this case, Lance's monetary gains from cycling were taken away.

[PaulConventionWV]

Thing is, you have to have proof and they have NONE.

This action is so wrong.

That's simply not true. There is a lot of evidence including eyewitness testimony and loads of circumstantial things. I bet you almost every professional cycler knows Lance doped.

There WAS physical evidence, too, but that was dismissed because the procedures for storing and testing the samples weren't followed exactly right. Still, there has been much discussion on why these findings are very significant.

[PaulConventionWV]

I always had Lance figured to be a douche. I think that competitive cycling is for douches. These people have chosen dicks to overlord them with their professional organizations....

therefore, I'm going to sit back, relax, and watch what happens when a group of self-absorbed weenies go after each other. We will know that the show has reached its maximum irrelevance level when Obama steps in with a statement for peace and they appoint James Baker, Louie Freeh, or one of Olympic hero, Willard Romney's sons to straighten out the mess.

That much is true. Cycling has a ridiculous amount of oversight and regulations. I personally think they should just let people use steroids if they want, but that introduces a very tough dilemma for people who are concerned for their health and the side-effects of steroids. Do they care enough about winning to sacrifice their health? They would pretty much have to do it in order to win, so it's really a tough dilemma.

[jmdrake]

I always had Lance figured to be a douche. I think that competitive cycling is for douches. These people have chosen dicks to overlord them with their professional organizations....

therefore, I'm going to sit back, relax, and watch what happens when a group of self-absorbed weenies go after each other. We will know that the show has reached its maximum irrelevance level when Obama steps in with a statement for peace and they appoint James Baker, Louie Freeh, or one of Olympic hero, Willard Romney's sons to straighten out the mess.

While I like watching the Tour and sprint cycling in the Olympics, I have to agree with the disdain for pro cycling for this reason. Pro cycling's decision to not allow recumbents has probably set cycling back technology wise 100 years. There aren't more bents on the road because they are more expensive. They're more expensive because they aren't mass produced because of low demand. The low demand is because people don't see bents on TV because they aren't allowed to compete.

[John F Kennedy III]

I think its disgusting. The guy passed hundreds of tests and the only evidence I've heard of is claims from people.

This. Not that I follow it anymore after he retired, but to me Armstrong will always be the champ for those 7 years regardless of what they say. He never failed a test. They're just pissed off because he won 7 straight while clean against a field of cheaters.

[John F Kennedy III]

See: 500 clean tests aren't good enough?

Either he had access to some crazy advanced shit that nobody else knew about or could get, even as a broke unknown during his first win, or he was clean.

I'm going with he was clean. You don't beat several hundred tests over nearly a decade if you're dirty.

[Bruno]

Cheaters are always a step ahead of the tests that attempt to catch them. Kind of like viruses and the methods meant to stop them.

I don't know how he cheated, but based upon what I have heard and read, I believe he did. Landis also won before he failed a test. At one point I read that Landis stated they would dope on the course in the van.

If you have 10 of your former teammates who are going to testify against you, either they all hate you and are willing the lie in court, or you are guilty and they are willing to tell the truth on what they knew you did and they did, too.

"USADA also said it had 10 former Armstrong teammates ready to testify against him. Other than suggesting they include Landis and Tyler Hamilton, both of whom have admitted to doping offenses, the agency has refused to say who they are or specifically what they would say."

[Bruno]

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500290_162-6501643.html

Disgraced U.S. cyclist Floyd Landis revealed new cheating allegations in a series of messages to sponsors and officials, alleging that former teammate Lance Armstrong not only joined him in doping but taught others how to beat the system and paid an official to keep a failed test quiet.

With international cycling season in full swing, Landis admitted for the first time what had long been suspected - that he was guilty of doping for several years before being stripped of his 2006 Tour de France title.

CBSSports.com: Landis Comes Clean, Accuses Armstrong
Proving Floyd Landis' Doping Accusations

His fresh accusations, contained in e-mails sent last month, prompted Armstrong to hold an impromptu press conference Thursday before he began the fifth stage of the Tour of California in Visalia.

"If you said, 'Give me one word to sum this all up,' credibility," the seven-time Tour de France winner said. "Floyd lost his credibility a long time ago."

"We have nothing to hide. We have nothing to run from," said Armstrong, who later quit the race to go to a hospital for X-rays after crashing just outside of Visalia, Calif.

Though Landis lost his title, he denied cheating until now, and his recent e-mails detail his blood doping.

"I want to clear my conscience," Landis told ESPN.com. "I don't want to be part of the problem any more."

He claims that Armstrong and longtime coach Johan Bruyneel paid an International Cycling Union official to cover-up a test in 2002 after Armstrong purportedly tested positive for the blood-boosting drug EPO. The UCI, however, denied changing or concealing a positive test result.

In an e-mail Landis sent to USA Cycling chief Steve Johnson, he said Armstrong's positive EPO test was in 2002, around the time he won the Tour de Suisse. Armstrong won the Tour de Suisse in 2001 and did not compete in 2002.

"We're a little confused, maybe just as confused as you guys," Armstrong said, with Bruyneel by his side. "The timeline is off, year by year."

The Wall Street Journal first reported the details of the e-mails.

Landis also implicated other cyclists, including longtime Armstrong confidant George Hincapie and Olympic medalist Levi Leipheimer, and acknowledged using human growth hormone starting in 2003. The Wall Street Journal reported another e-mail from Landis also linked another top American racer, Dave Zabriskie, to doping.

"Look forward to much more detail as soon as you can demonstrate that you can be trusted to do the right thing," Landis wrote in the e-mail to Johnson.

Landis said he was asked at one point to stay in an apartment where Armstrong was living and check the temperature in a refrigerator where blood was being stored for future transfusions. "Mr. Armstrong was planning on being gone for a few weeks to train he asked me to stay in his place and make sure the electricity didn't turn off or something go wrong with the refrigerator," Landis wrote.
Hincapie said he was "really disappointed" by the allegations. Jim Ochowicz, a former top USA Cycling official - who was also implicated by Landis - defended himself and Hincapie.

"These allegations are not true, absolutely unfounded and unproven," said Ochowicz, now the president of BMC Racing, Hincapie's current team. "This is disappointing to anyone who works in the sport or is a fan of the sport."

Johnson said USA Cycling would not comment about Landis' series of e-mails, citing its policy on not discussing "doping allegations, investigations or any aspect of an adjudication process."

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency also declined comment for similar reasons, and Landis did not respond to messages left by The AP.

More accusations from Landis could be coming, however. In his e-mail to Johnson, Landis indicated he has several diaries detailing other experiences.

"I've always known Floyd as an angry person ... somebody who's basically angry with the world," Bruyneel said. "To me it sounds like he just wants to drag down people who are still there and enjoying this."

Until about 2005, Armstrong worked extensively with Michele Ferrari, an Italian doctor who was linked to numerous doping issues, but was cleared by an appeals court in 2006. Landis claimed Ferrari extracted "half a liter of blood" from him in 2002, so he could have it transfused during the Tour de France.

"Mr. Armstrong was not witness to the extraction but he and I had lengthy discussions about it on our training rides during which time he also explained to me the evolution of EPO testing and how transfusions were now necessary due to the inconvenience of the new test," Landis wrote.

Landis also alleges that after one stage of 2004 Tour de France, the team got off their bikes and boarded a bus where each of them received blood transfusions on the side of the road, reports CBS News correspondent Ben Tracy.
Andy Rihs, the owner of the Phonak team for which Landis rode when he won the Tour, issued a statement saying Landis' claims were "lies" and a "last, tragic attempt" to get publicity. In the April 30 e-mail, Landis alleges that Rihs was aware of his doping and helped fund it.

Like Armstrong, UCI president Pat McQuaid questioned Landis' credibility.

"He already made those accusations in the past," McQuaid said. "Armstrong has been accused many times in the past but nothing has been proved against him. And in this case, I have to question the guy's credibility. There is no proof of what he says. We are speaking about a guy who has been condemned for doping before a court."

Armstrong said Landis started threatening him and other top riders such as Leipheimer and Zabriskie to make allegations like these long ago.

"I'd remind everybody that this is a man that's been under oath several times and had a very different version," Armstrong said. "This is a man that wrote a book for profit that had a completely different version. This is somebody that took, some would say, close to $1 million from innocent people for his defense under a different premise. Now when it's all run out the story changes."

A French judge issued an international arrest warrant for Landis in February in connection with a case of data hacking at a doping laboratory.

French judge Thomas Cassuto wanted to question Landis about computer hacking dating back to September 2006 at the Chatenay-Malabry lab.

It was that lab which months earlier had uncovered abnormally elevated testosterone levels in Landis' samples collected in the run-up to his 2006 Tour victory.

[specsaregood]

If you have 10 of your former teammates who are going to testify against you, either they all hate you and are willing the lie in court, or you are guilty and they are willing to tell the truth on what they knew you did and they did, too.

There is another couple "or"'s you missed there.

[liveandletlive]

George Hincapie to me is the straw that broke the camel's back. This is a well respected man and teammate who was set to testify against Lance.

[Bruno]

There is another couple "or"'s you missed there.

perhaps

We all have our opinions. The whole sport is riddled with people cheating, just like baseball. My feeling is he was no different and just tired of fighting the allegations.

[emazur]

Fuckin' America Dental Association. They restrict competition in the dental industry by forming a cartel, and now they have to stick their spatulas into the cycling industry as well??? Evil, evil dentists...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a116/jmidget123/EvilDentist.jpg

[John F Kennedy III]

Cheaters are always a step ahead of the tests that attempt to catch them. Kind of like viruses and the methods meant to stop them.

I don't know how he cheated, but based upon what I have heard and read, I believe he did. Landis also won before he failed a test. At one point I read that Landis stated they would dope on the course in the van.

If you have 10 of your former teammates who are going to testify against you, either they all hate you and are willing the lie in court, or you are guilty and they are willing to tell the truth on what they knew you did and they did, too.

"USADA also said it had 10 former Armstrong teammates ready to testify against him. Other than suggesting they include Landis and Tyler Hamilton, both of whom have admitted to doping offenses, the agency has refused to say who they are or specifically what they would say."

According to someone in this thread his teammates were threatened with having their own accomplishments taken away if they didn't turn on him. If that is true then nothing any of them say can be trusted.

Landis as an example isn't valid. He tested positive. Armstrong never once tested positive.

[Zippyjuan]

He never failed a single test (and was the most tested rider in the sport- both in and outside competition- they could call anytime day or night and ask for a piss test or blood test. He has been investigated numerous times over years (which is why he is tired of fighting them- the most recent was a congressional investigation which was closed earlier this year) and passed every one of those. The accusers we know of all had personal gripes against Armstrong and did fail tests and were offered immunity if they gave up Armstrong.

And why only him and his team? Beause they were successful. His performances did not come out of nowhere- he was a successful triathlete before turning his focus to cycling. He succeeded in the Tour de France often because that was the only major race he rode all year- letting him train specifically for it- while others rode many more races during the year. He also trained harder than almost everybody and he and his team revolutionized both tactics and equipment as well as training techniques (first for example to use wind tunnels to work on riding posture).

If he was doping, he was very good at it. And he was definately very good at riding his bicycle. The ban will mean he cannot persue his next dream of doing the Ironman or other sanctioned triathlons. He recently won a marathon at altitude in Colorado and he has also won the Leadville 100 which is a 100 mile mountain bicycle race which starts at 12,000 feet in elevation and goes up to 14,000. Off roads.

[liveandletlive]

he knows he's still a profitable brand name with cult followers. Even though he repeats the same lie that "he's never failed a test". Armstrong has failed a few tests but for political reasons were not legally announced as failed tests.


there will always be people to support him this guy and he'll still be able to make a lot of money

[liveandletlive]

He never failed a single test (and was the most tested rider in the sport- both in and outside competition- they could call anytime day or night and ask for a piss test or blood test. He has been investigated numerous times over years (which is why he is tired of fighting them- the most recent was a congressional investigation which was closed earlier this year) and passed every one of those. The accusers we know of all had personal gripes against Armstrong and did fail tests and were offered immunity if they gave up Armstrong.

And why only him and his team? Beause they were successful. His performances did not come out of nowhere- he was a successful triathlete before turning his focus to cycling. He succeeded in the Tour de France often because that was the only major race he rode all year- letting him train specifically for it- while others rode many more races during the year. He also trained harder than almost everybody and he and his team revolutionized both tactics and equipment as well as training techniques (first for example to use wind tunnels to work on riding posture).

If he was doping, he was very good at it. And he was definately very good at riding his bicycle. The ban will mean he cannot persue his next dream of doing the Ironman or other sanctioned triathlons. He recently won a marathon at altitude in Colorado and he has also won the Leadville 100 which is a 100 mile mountain bicycle race which starts at 12,000 feet in elevation and goes up to 14,000. Off roads.

He actually did fail a test....

[BamaAla]

Sure he was doping; that entire sport was doping. Cycling is worse than baseball in that regard. With that said, he 7 times beat a field full of dopers. I'm all for cleaning up all sports (especially my favorite - baseball,) but this was nothing more than a witch hunt.

[RickyJ]

Is that really a "fact?" I had a better view of humanity than that.

You think too highly of humanity. Look at all the people here that think they have a "right" to download copyrighted works.

[liveandletlive]

Sure he was doping; that entire sport was doping. Cycling is worse than baseball in that regard. With that said, he 7 times beat a field full of dopers. I'm all for cleaning up all sports (especially my favorite - baseball,) but this was nothing more than a witch hunt.

so because he's a better doper than everyone else, it makes it ok?

I'm sure he had some sort of natural ability, but the cancer hindered him.

I think taking something like testosterone is actually pretty good to prolong someone's life and help curb the aging process and heal from injuries.

But Lance should have waited till he stopped competing to roid up

[Bruno]

According to someone in this thread his teammates were threatened with having their own accomplishments taken away if they didn't turn on him. If that is true then nothing any of them say can be trusted.

Landis as an example isn't valid. He tested positive. Armstrong never once tested positive.

But Landis is claiming Armstrong showed him how to do, encourged him and others to do it, as cited above.

Lance is right and all these other guys are just upset and willing to lie because he was better than them and they were overshadowed by his greatness.

Or...they are tired of him on his high horse when they knew he cheated just like most of them did.

I feel he cheated. You don't. We can agree on that much. :)

[RickyJ]

Sure he was doping; that entire sport was doping. Cycling is worse than baseball in that regard. With that said, he 7 times beat a field full of dopers. I'm all for cleaning up all sports (especially my favorite - baseball,) but this was nothing more than a witch hunt.

His excuse for the doping was the anti-cancer drugs he was using when he tested positive for it. They overlooked it for that reason and because he actually won the thing and it made a good story, a guy coming back from cancer to win the Tour De France. It was a big win for cycling and got tons of people interested in the sport for the first time. They used him to build up cycling when it was dropping in popularity.

[RickyJ]

Landis as an example isn't valid. He tested positive. Armstrong never once tested positive.

Lance tested positive twice for banned substances. He claimed it was still in his system due to the anti-cancer drugs he had been taking. Most people in cycling do not buy that.

[idiom]

Bloody non-profit, non-governmental voluntary organisations...

[farreri]

I have no doubt that Lanced doped all those years, but why is the federal govt getting involved?

[RickyJ]

I have no doubt that Lanced doped all those years, but why is the federal govt getting involved?

Yeah, that is nuts! Let cycling deal with it. If it doesn't bother them, then it shouldn't bother the federal government.

[John F Kennedy III]

Lance tested positive twice for banned substances. He claimed it was still in his system due to the anti-cancer drugs he had been taking. Most people in cycling do not buy that.

After a quick search I found that supposedly his urine from 1999 and blood samples from 2009 and 2010 tested positive for banned substances.

[angelatc]

Lance tested positive twice for banned substances. He claimed it was still in his system due to the anti-cancer drugs he had been taking. Most people in cycling do not buy that.

I don't follow this, but I can only find one report of him testing positive, and that was hear-say from a bitter teammate who indeed tested positive.

Googling it now, everything I can find indicates that Armstrong never actually tested positive for anything. There were some other instances of cortosteroids found in his bloodstream, but not enough to trigger a positive result, and the charges related to that find were dropped when it was traced back to a cream he was using on a surgical wound.

I suppose it's a good thing he didn't eat poppy seed muffins.

And let's not talk about the accuracy of the tests. Even if the test is 99.9% accurate, a positive only has a 50% chance of being accurate.

Having said that...he's an Obama voter. He likes seeing the government take things away. The USADA needs scalps on its wall to justify its existence.

[tttppp]

Many other cyclists and supporters of the sport have said he was doping too. I think he probably was, but honestly, I don't care. Most people will cheat if they think they can get away with it, that is a fact, and I am sure he wasn't the only one doing it.

Exactly, its not cheating if everyone else is taking steroids. Plus, who do they give his titles to? The highest ranking player who just hasn't gotten caught yet?

[BamaAla]

so because he's a better doper than everyone else, it makes it ok?

I'm sure he had some sort of natural ability, but the cancer hindered him.

I think taking something like testosterone is actually pretty good to prolong someone's life and help curb the aging process and heal from injuries.

But Lance should have waited till he stopped competing to roid up

No, that's not what I was saying. I said that I want all sports cleaned up, but from jump street, they were acting like cycling was clean and the only folks juicing up were the US Postal team and Lance; in hindsight, that's a crock...the entire sport was dirty. To a large degree, Lance was singled out because he was a super successful American and the French hated that in their event. Lance was doping, but so was everyone else. Let sleeping dogs lie and clean up a dirty sport (probably the dirtiest) going forward. That's the same thing I want for baseball.

[Carehn]

I don't see what is wrong with performance enhancing drugs. It should just be part of the sport. Like exercise, eating right, practice in high altitudes, saving your blood up and injecting it before the game. all of these are actions people do to enhance performance, why say its all cool till you get to some chemicals?

Let um juice and let it just be part of being an athlete if you want.

[BamaAla]

His excuse for the doping was the anti-cancer drugs he was using when he tested positive for it. They overlooked it for that reason and because he actually won the thing and it made a good story, a guy coming back from cancer to win the Tour De France. It was a big win for cycling and got tons of people interested in the sport for the first time. They used him to build up cycling when it was dropping in popularity.

Absolutely. They followed the baseball model. The only thing that saved baseball from their latest strike was the steroid era. Clean them both up, but let's not act like there were only a few (Lance, Landis, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens) and try to make an example of them.

[tttppp]

My gut feeling tells me he was doping the whole time, encouraged others to do so, most everyone in the top in this sport does it, and they all feel like they had to in order to win and compete at that level.

See: Baseball and steroids

Also see NBA and NFL. Both have huge steroid problems which are not being reported. In the NFL they are making a big deal about the health element of their sport, but they are ignoring steroids.

[libertyjam]

His excuse for the doping was the anti-cancer drugs he was using when he tested positive for it. They overlooked it for that reason and because he actually won the thing and it made a good story, a guy coming back from cancer to win the Tour De France. It was a big win for cycling and got tons of people interested in the sport for the first time. They used him to build up cycling when it was dropping in popularity.

Exactly, EPO is a therapy for overcoming Chemo. So I'm sure he learned all about it in conjunction w/ his cancer treatments.

[libertyjam]

I don't see what is wrong with performance enhancing drugs. It should just be part of the sport. Like exercise, eating right, practice in high altitudes, saving your blood up and injecting it before the game. all of these are actions people do to enhance performance, why say its all cool till you get to some chemicals?

Let um juice and let it just be part of being an athlete if you want.

I don't even know why they are called drugs or 'doping', when they are actually hormones and nothing like drugs.

[tttppp]

Exactly, EPO is a therapy for overcoming Chemo. So I'm sure he learned all about it in conjunction w/ his cancer treatments.

What exactly is EPO?

[libertyjam]

What exactly is EPO?

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/performanceenhancingdrugs/a/EPO.htm

Erythropoietin is available as a therapeutic agent produced by recombinant DNA technology in mammalian cell culture. It is used in treating anemia resulting from chronic kidney disease and myelodysplasia, from the treatment of cancer (chemotherapy and radiation). Current research suggests that, aminoacid R103 to E mutation in erythropoietin makes it neuroprotective and non-erythropoietic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin

[tttppp]

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/performanceenhancingdrugs/a/EPO.htm

I heard of this before. Me and my acupuncturist were once making fun of athletes who do this. There are natural ways to make more blood by taking herbs, which are completely safe, legal, and most likely undetectable.

[angelatc]

Exactly, EPO is a therapy for overcoming Chemo. So I'm sure he learned all about it in conjunction w/ his cancer treatments.

Except for the fact that he already had a huge bucket full of wins before the cancer, that makes total sense.

[RonPaulMall]

Absolutely. They followed the baseball model. The only thing that saved baseball from their latest strike was the steroid era. Clean them both up, but let's not act like there were only a few (Lance, Landis, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens) and try to make an example of them.

Your analogy is off. Baseball and Cycling are not the same. Drugs have been a part of cycling since very beginning of the sport. The Tour de France is a grueling, extreme endurance event. The human body is not built to do what the Tour de France asks. To complete the Tour de France without some "unnatural" aid is a physical impossibility. The man who created the Tour de France once said the ideal course would be one so difficult only one racer would manage to cross the finish line. For most of the history of the Tour de France, drugs were an open, official, readily acknowledged thing. In recent decades, largely as a result of Drug Nazis, it has become an unofficial but still readily acknowledged thing. Steoids, hell, just even lifting weights and keeping yourself in shape were never an ingrained part of baseball culture. What happened in the steroid decade was unusual for baseball. Conversely, it is not the drugs but rather the drug testing lobby that is the unnatural element that has crept in to the sport of cycling.

The whole "controversy" over Lance Armstrong is childish and absurd to anybody who knows anything about the sport. Every single man who has won the Tour de France since the very first race back in 1903 has been utilizing some form of "doping". Of all the thousands of racers who have lost the Tour de France, you can probably count on one hand those who didn't engage in some form of doping. All Lance Armstrong's rivals during his string of wins were utilizing the same doping methods he was. Every top racer he beat at the Tour was doping. Every top racer that beat him was doping. It is a complete non-issue.

[BamaAla]

Your analogy is off. Baseball and Cycling are not the same. Drugs have been a part of cycling since very beginning of the sport. The Tour de France is a grueling, extreme endurance event. The human body is not built to do what the Tour de France asks. To complete the Tour de France without some "unnatural" aid is a physical impossibility. The man who created the Tour de France once said the ideal course would be one so difficult only one racer would manage to cross the finish line. For most of the history of the Tour de France, drugs were an open, official, readily acknowledged thing. In recent decades, largely as a result of Drug Nazis, it has become an unofficial but still readily acknowledged thing. Steoids, hell, just even lifting weights and keeping yourself in shape were never an ingrained part of baseball culture. What happened in the steroid decade was unusual for baseball. Conversely, it is not the drugs but rather the drug testing lobby that is the unnatural element that has crept in to the sport of cycling.

The whole "controversy" over Lance Armstrong is childish and absurd to anybody who knows anything about the sport. Every single man who has won the Tour de France since the very first race back in 1903 has been utilizing some form of "doping". Of all the thousands of racers who have lost the Tour de France, you can probably count on one hand those who didn't engage in some form of doping. All Lance Armstrong's rivals during his string of wins were utilizing the same doping methods he was. Every top racer he beat at the Tour was doping. Every top racer that beat him was doping. It is a complete non-issue.


Sure he was doping; that entire sport was doping. Cycling is worse than baseball in that regard. With that said, he 7 times beat a field full of dopers. I'm all for cleaning up all sports (especially my favorite - baseball,) but this was nothing more than a witch hunt.

As I said ^ cycling is the dirtiest sport out there with maybe the exception of body building and professional wrestling. Lance, doping, beat a field of dopers; this was a witch hunt.

I agree, they aren't exactly comparable, but they both used juiced up athletes to grow their sport. No was watching baseball before the long ball and no one would pour tons of sponsorship dollars into the TDF if one guy crossed the finish line.

[RonPaulMall]

As I said ^ cycling is the dirtiest sport out there with maybe the exception of body building and professional wrestling. Lance, doping, beat a field of dopers; this was a witch hunt.

I agree, they aren't exactly comparable, but they both used juiced up athletes to grow their sport. No was watching baseball before the long ball and no one would pour tons of sponsorship dollars into the TDF if one guy crossed the finish line.

Well, you seem to be making a value judgement with the word "dirty". What makes EPO anymore "dirty" than taking oxygen on the sidelines of a football game or a basketball player drinking from a water bottle during a time out? And I don't agree with the idea that cycling has "used" drugs to increase its popularity. The cyclists themselves use drugs, and have for over a century, because it is a tool that helps them compete and win. Baseball was at its peak of popularity when few players looked like athletes at all from a modern perspective. And as drugs have been a part of cycling since its inception, you can't really cite it as the reason for the sport's popularity. Europeans just like bikes. That's why the sport became such a sensation over there, not the fact the cyclists use drugs.

[QuickZ06]

Do we ban people with better genetics to make the playing field more "even" or maybe not allow protein shakes, creatine ect. ect. as they "enhance" your performance and recovery times? When does the line get drawn or does one even need to be drawn? Or do you let bygones be bygones?

[MikeStanart]

He cheated? Who gives a flying F&*# . The US Taxpayers are the only ones who should feel cheated because they are the ones paying for the USADA funding (Via the Office of National Drug Control Policy)

[BucksforPaul]

He actually did fail a test....

Do you have a source?

[QuickZ06]

And I guess we should ban black males from competing as well since they produce higher levels of testosterone at younger ages that other races. Got to make it fair and all.

Is Marijuana considered a performance enhancing drug at the Nathan's hot dog eating contest?

Chuck Norris should be banned from this planet as well.

[dannno]

That much is true. Cycling has a ridiculous amount of oversight and regulations. I personally think they should just let people use steroids if they want, but that introduces a very tough dilemma for people who are concerned for their health and the side-effects of steroids. Do they care enough about winning to sacrifice their health? They would pretty much have to do it in order to win, so it's really a tough dilemma.

It should be up to the league.

If people want to watch a league that doesn't have rules and the players are allowed to voluntarily destroy their bodies to compete, then let them.

If the league wants to maintain it's dignity, it will test for substances like steroids. If I owned a league I wouldn't test for "all" "performance enhancing substances" because then technically you'd have to not allow them to eat food. But I would ban certain substances that are known to do a lot of long-term damage and significantly enhance performance, like steroids.

[QuickZ06]

It should be up to the league.

If people want to watch a league that doesn't have rules and the players are allowed to voluntarily destroy their bodies to compete, then let them.

If the league wants to maintain it's dignity, it will test for substances like steroids. If I owned a league I wouldn't test for "all" "performance enhancing substances" because then technically you'd have to not allow them to eat food. But I would ban certain substances that are known to do a lot of long-term damage and significantly enhance performance, like steroids.

What sites have you been to regarding Steroids?

[tttppp]

It should be up to the league.

If people want to watch a league that doesn't have rules and the players are allowed to voluntarily destroy their bodies to compete, then let them.

If the league wants to maintain it's dignity, it will test for substances like steroids. If I owned a league I wouldn't test for "all" "performance enhancing substances" because then technically you'd have to not allow them to eat food. But I would ban certain substances that are known to do a lot of long-term damage and significantly enhance performance, like steroids.

From my experience, steroids are not worth the risk. They can definitely boost your performance. However the risks are so bad its not worth it regardless of how much you get paid.

The answer might be to legalize steroids. That way companies can invest in ways to make safer steroids, or make alternative substances that can boost performances without major side effects. There are natural ways to boost performances, but generally nothing can compete with steroids yet.

[QuickZ06]

From my experience, steroids are not worth the risk. They can definitely boost your performance. However the risks are so bad its not worth it regardless of how much you get paid.

The answer might be to legalize steroids. That way companies can invest in ways to make safer steroids, or make alternative substances that can boost performances without major side effects. There are natural ways to boost performances, but generally nothing can compete with steroids yet.

Same question, I asked Dannno. Where are you getting this information about steroids? Let me take a wild guess, a government funded site that did government funded research?

[tttppp]

Same question, I asked Dannno. Where are you getting this information about steroids? Let me take a wild guess, a government funded site that did government funded research?

No. I tried a testosterone supplement years ago. It boosted my strength very quickly. However, the side effects were horrible. Keep in mind I only took it for a month or two. Many athletes take steroids for years.

[QuickZ06]

No. I tried a testosterone supplement years ago. It boosted my strength very quickly. However, the side effects were horrible. Keep in mind I only took it for a month or two. Many athletes take steroids for years.

Well first, there is a huge difference in testosterone boosters and steroids.

So all you were taking was testosterone? Which one was it? I find this really hard to believe. Everything you heard that was "bad" about steroids was put in your head by the government, the same government that tells you dried plant material will make you rape white women or die from using it :rolleyes: I dislike when people pick and choose what "drugs" they deem bad when all they heard was propaganda from the get go.

I am sure you won't as you have apparently made up your mind on steroids but go on the bodybuilding forums and tell them steroids are very bad. They will LOL at you and call you a troll but some might educate on the truths. 99% of people don't even need to take steroids or testosterone as they have not even maxed their body out naturally with the normal GNC/Vitamin Shoppe supplements.

[QuickZ06]

Plus there is a lot of "snake oil" testosterone boosters out there that could potentially have bad side effects. Eat clean and lift heavy and you will get all the gains you want. Diet is key.

[tttppp]

Well first, there is a huge difference in testosterone boosters and steroids.

So all you were taking was testosterone? Which one was it? I find this really hard to believe. Everything you heard that was "bad" about steroids was put in your head by the government, the same government that tells you dried plant material will make you rape white women or die from using it :rolleyes: I dislike when people pick and choose what "drugs" they deem bad when all they heard was propaganda from the get go.

I am sure you won't as you have apparently made up your mind on steroids but go on the bodybuilding forums and tell them steroids are very bad. They will LOL at you and call you a troll but some might educate on the truths. 99% of people don't even need to take steroids or testosterone as they have not even maxed their body out naturally with the normal GNC/Vitamin Shoppe supplements.

I don't know the name of the product. Obviously I didn't believe what the government says since I actually took the steroids. Just check out any of my posts on western medicine or acupuncture. I obviously could care less what the government says. Trust me, steroids can do serious damage. Granted I was already unhealthy, but I only took it a month or two. Athletes take them for years.

[tttppp]

Plus there is a lot of "snake oil" testosterone boosters out there that could potentially have bad side effects. Eat clean and lift heavy and you will get all the gains you want. Diet is key.

Eating healthy is good, but it will never get you the same results as steroids.

[kcchiefs6465]

Well first, there is a huge difference in testosterone boosters and steroids.

So all you were taking was testosterone? Which one was it? I find this really hard to believe. Everything you heard that was "bad" about steroids was put in your head by the government, the same government that tells you dried plant material will make you rape white women or die from using it :rolleyes: I dislike when people pick and choose what "drugs" they deem bad when all they heard was propaganda from the get go.
I am sure you won't as you have apparently made up your mind on steroids but go on the bodybuilding forums and tell them steroids are very bad. They will LOL at you and call you a troll but some might educate on the truths. 99% of people don't even need to take steroids or testosterone as they have not even maxed their body out naturally with the normal GNC/Vitamin Shoppe supplements.
Small balls is pretty powerful propaganda. I'll stick to protein.

[QuickZ06]

I don't know the name of the product. Obviously I didn't believe what the government says since I actually took the steroids. Just check out any of my posts on western medicine or acupuncture. I obviously could care less what the government says. Trust me, steroids can do serious damage. Granted I was already unhealthy, but I only took it a month or two. Athletes take them for years.

Again steroids are different than testosterone boosters. And you do not remember the product that gave you "horrible" side effects?


Eating healthy is good, but it will never get you the same results as steroids.

Like I said, most do not even need to think about it unless they are 100% educated on steroids and have the time. You can get fantastic results just by working out harder and eating clean.

[QuickZ06]

Small balls is pretty powerful propaganda. I'll stick to protein.

They go back to normal after a cycle, besides you don't need them if you are taking steroids correctly and working out as you will not have the energy or time for four play and sex.

[tttppp]

Again steroids are different than testosterone boosters. And you do not remember the product that gave you "horrible" side effects?



Like I said, most do not even need to think about it unless they are 100% educated on steroids and have the time. You can get fantastic results just by working out harder and eating clean.

It was six years ago, so obviously I don't remember the name. That's not to say all steroid products are the same...but I'm not going to experiment with any other products to find out.

[BamaAla]

Well first, there is a huge difference in testosterone boosters and steroids.

So all you were taking was testosterone? Which one was it? I find this really hard to believe. Everything you heard that was "bad" about steroids was put in your head by the government, the same government that tells you dried plant material will make you rape white women or die from using it :rolleyes: I dislike when people pick and choose what "drugs" they deem bad when all they heard was propaganda from the get go.

I am sure you won't as you have apparently made up your mind on steroids but go on the bodybuilding forums and tell them steroids are very bad. They will LOL at you and call you a troll but some might educate on the truths. 99% of people don't even need to take steroids or testosterone as they have not even maxed their body out naturally with the normal GNC/Vitamin Shoppe supplements.

LOL. GTFO, are you serious with this :"go on the bodybuilding forums and tell them steroids are very bad. They will LOL at you and call you a troll but some might educate on the truths?" Why don't you go to...oh say...the nearest medical school and tell them how fantastic steroids are for you; tell them you got your broscience learning over at the bb forums and they are wrong.

[QuickZ06]

LOL. GTFO, are you serious with this :"go on the bodybuilding forums and tell them steroids are very bad. They will LOL at you and call you a troll but some might educate on the truths?" Why don't you go to...oh say...the nearest medical school and tell them how fantastic steroids are for you; tell them you got your broscience learning over at the bb forums and they are wrong.

Did I ever say they were fantastic, don't think so but they do have a great purpose. I did however say that the stuff you have heard is mostly a lie i.e roid rage (which effects a small amount of people), women boobs ect. ect.

And like I said you can continue to believe those government funded websites and research.

Ill take multiple professional body builders opinions and independent research over government funded ones.

I guess you are against weed and pretty much anything else the government deems BAD to huh as I am sure I can go to the nearest medical center and find plenty of paid shells to tell me how bad weed is.

[QuickZ06]

And please dont tell me to GTFO. I thought this was a liberty minded forum where we can share our ideas and opinions. Or are your views the only ones that are acceptable?

[QuickZ06]

It was six years ago, so obviously I don't remember the name. That's not to say all steroid products are the same...but I'm not going to experiment with any other products to find out.

That is why you do tons and tons of research and get many opinions before you start shoving w/e into your body. I guarantee whatever you were taking was garbage that you should have never of taken in the first place.

[QuickZ06]

Every drug has a risk but it's stupid to pinpoint steroids as the sole reason for a person's death. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler, and tons of other bodybuilders are still alive today after many, many, many cycles of steroids. Are they completely healthy? No. But it's not like you're going to drop dead after doing several cycles. It is easy to blame your problems on one thing but usually the case is there are a lot of other contributing factors when someone "dies from steroids". Do you honestly think the government is magically watching out for us and our greater good in the body building/sports world as far as steroids go but never mind how retarded they are at messing everything else up. Are some of you not picking up on this?

[QuickZ06]

Vitamin C offers more side effects than steroids. Guess we should just ban that as well.

[BamaAla]

Vitamin C offers more side effects than steroids. Guess we should just ban that as well.

If you want to be taken serious, you need to stop making comments like this. It's all well and good if you want to take steroids, shut down your testes, lose your hair, grow bitch tits, and relive the acne nightmare of the teenage years, but this little crusade to convince us that they are basically multi-vitamins isn't going to get very far.

[JSaindon]

I can't believe we want to pretend that sports are moral high grounds. LMAO. Lots of pro athletes dope and try to stay one step ahead of the tests. Armstrong was almost done with this whole case via arbitration and he just drops it all? Makes you question his motives also as well as the USADA. If he beat the tests, so be it, congrats to him, end of story. Why is there not a statute of limitations on these types of cases? Even common police laws have less statute of limitations than the 10+ years the USADA has been trying to pin somehting on Armstrong. The whole case is a joke and will hurt the biking world, as if it was even popular to begin with.

The only positive that might come from this are the goofy nerds that dress up in the tight bicycle racing gear and ride down busy two lane streets during heavy traffic hours. I guess they are too good to ride bike trail right along the road. Idiots.

[tttppp]

That is why you do tons and tons of research and get many opinions before you start shoving w/e into your body. I guarantee whatever you were taking was garbage that you should have never of taken in the first place.

Duh, I know that now. But that doesn't change the fact they are horrible for you. It wasn't that they were horrible that was the problem, its that they are so completely horrible that no person should ever use them. The side effects were way greater than the benfits.

[QuickZ06]

Duh, I know that now. But that doesn't change the fact they are horrible for you. It wasn't that they were horrible that was the problem, its that they are so completely horrible that no person should ever use them. The side effects were way greater than the benfits.

Vitamin C has more side effects than steroids. Should we ban vitamin C? Vaginal discharge is one of these side effects from a vitamin, pretty gross and horrible.


If you want to be taken serious, you need to stop making comments like this. It's all well and good if you want to take steroids, shut down your testes, lose your hair, grow bitch tits, and relive the acne nightmare of the teenage years, but this little crusade to convince us that they are basically multi-vitamins isn't going to get very far.

Everything you just said is government rhetoric. I never said they were vitamins. You sure do like putting words in my mouth, you have a personal agenda against me?

Look how many people "died" from steroids last year. Bet you its under 10 and even then I still call BS that is was all just steroids.

The big pharma companies are pushing their testosterone boosters for a reason and had steroids banned for a reason. Are seeing the similarities here, pretty much the same as marijuana.

The propaganda on steroids is so good that even liberty minded folks are buying into it. But here is the "kicker" don't believe a dang thing I told you, go research the heck out of it and come up with your own opinion and stay away from anything government funded please.

[HOLLYWOOD]

I want to see all the athletes "juiced" I would enjoy watching pros even former pros like, Spud Webb slam-dunkin from half court, and 700ft homeruns, 100mph cyclists, 150mph pitches/slapshots.

Let's make sporting events memorable and entertaining

[tttppp]

Vitamin C has more side effects than steroids. Should we ban vitamin C? Vaginal discharge is one of these side effects from a vitamin, pretty gross and horrible.



Everything you just said is government rhetoric. I never said they were vitamins. You sure do like putting words in my mouth, you have a personal agenda against me?

Look how many people "died" from steroids last year. Bet you its under 10 and even then I still call BS that is was all just steroids.

The big pharma companies are pushing their testosterone boosters for a reason and had steroids banned for a reason. Are seeing the similarities here, pretty much the same as marijuana.

The propaganda on steroids is so good that even liberty minded folks are buying into it. But here is the "kicker" don't believe a dang thing I told you, go research the heck out of it and come up with your own opinion and stay away from anything government funded please.

You should read the thread more carefully. I suggested the government should legalize steroids to make it more profitable for companies to make safe steroids.

Plus I never advised anyone to take vitamins. That said, I can't imagine vitamins being worse than steroids.

[idiom]

So only athletes with access to steroids should win and athletes who don't use them, or don't use them well enough are simply not good athletes?

Athletics is no longer about your drive, commitment, and talent, but instead about your access to the latest million dollar custom super drugs?

If you want to compete with big money science then get into a sport based on machines, like Formula 1 motor-sport or the Americas Cup.

[QuickZ06]

So only athletes with access to steroids should win and athletes who don't use them, or don't use them well enough are simply not good athletes?

Athletics is no longer about your drive, commitment, and talent, but instead about your access to the latest million dollar custom super drugs?

If you want to compete with big money science then get into a sport based on machines, like Formula 1 motor-sport or the Americas Cup.

There is a new stem cell treatment that is undetectable.

[QuickZ06]

You should read the thread more carefully. I suggested the government should legalize steroids to make it more profitable for companies to make safe steroids.

Plus I never advised anyone to take vitamins. That said, I can't imagine vitamins being worse than steroids.

Like I said there is a reason they are illegal. And stop saying that current anabolic steroids as that is the steroid everyone hates are not "safe" and are the most "horrible" thing in the world for you. And yes vitamin C has more side effects, research it.

[tttppp]

Like I said there is a reason they are illegal. And stop saying that current anabolic steroids as that is the steroid everyone hates are not "safe" and are the most "horrible" thing in the world for you. And yes vitamin C has more side effects, research it.

Steroids are the worst thing I have taken, and that includes all the horrible medications I tried. Vitamin C would not have done what the steroids did to me.

Also, I'm not the one saying they should be illegal. Stop acting like I'm campaigning for them to be illegal.

[QuickZ06]

Steroids are the worst thing I have taken, and that includes all the horrible medications I tried. Vitamin C would not have done what the steroids did to me.

Also, I'm not the one saying they should be illegal. Stop acting like I'm campaigning for them to be illegal.

I am not talking about illegal or legal, thats not the point I am trying to make. The point I am making is you are spreading false information about a substance you can even remember the name of that effected you SO badly, even if it was 6 years ago. When you can come up with the name of that testosterone booster I will possibly take what you said as remotely credible.

So you are basing all of your judgement off of just yourself. And which did you take steroids, anabolic steroids or a testosterone booster as I am now confused as all are very different. Like I said, every drug has a risk but to say it is the end of your life if you use regularly is just insane. Many people I know have been juicing there whole adult lives and have zero medical compilations and are pretty healthy people in and out. Anyone can abuse any drug. That is why you must know ins and out of the drug 100% before even deciding to take it and use it accordingly.

[tttppp]

I am not talking about illegal or legal, thats not the point I am trying to make. The point I am making is you are spreading false information about a substance you can even remember the name of that effected you SO badly, even if it was 6 years ago. When you can come up with the name of that testosterone booster I will possibly take what you said as remotely credible.

So you are basing all of your judgement off of just yourself. And which did you take steroids, anabolic steroids or a testosterone booster as I am now confused as all are very different. Like I said, every drug has a risk but to say it is the end of your life if you use regularly is just insane. Many people I know have been juicing there whole adult lives and have zero medical compilations and are pretty healthy people in and out. Anyone can abuse any drug. That is why you must know ins and out of the drug 100% before even deciding to take it and use it accordingly.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I have no idea what your point is. At first you criticize me for getting my information from the government. Now you are saying my opinion doesn't count because its based on personal experience, yet your information based on your friends experiences somehow count more than my experience.

Sure most people don't have as bad of an experience as me, but there are a hell of a lot of athletes who magically age 20 years overnight, gain tons of weight they can't get rid of, or have their entire bodies break down with constant injuries.

[QuickZ06]

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I have no idea what your point is. At first you criticize me for getting my information from the government. Now you are saying my opinion doesn't count because its based on personal experience, yet your information based on your friends experiences somehow count more than my experience.

Sure most people don't have as bad of an experience as me, but there are a hell of a lot of athletes who magically age 20 years overnight, gain tons of weight they can't get rid of, or have their entire bodies break down with constant injuries.

You are one person, I know many people with zero issues, if that logic fails you I am sorry. And your opinion would have some weight to it if you could at least give me the name of this life changing drug you put in your body. A lot of people have pre medical conditions that they dont even know about and when they start up a cycle it comes to full light as they are putting there bodies threw an extreme routine. So even if you are the "supposed" rare case it still proves its not and end your life drug/horrible as you make it out to be. You are still here even after the fact you put god knows what in your body without knowing 100% about the drug.

Do you not see why I am grinding at you so much on this. You are doing what the liberals do, rehashing government rhetoric without presenting any facts. There are so many snake oils in the body building world its not even funny and usually when someone says they are royally screwed up from it, is because they failed to do the research and get opinions on the subject as it was a scam from the beginning.


At first you criticize me for getting my information from the government.

And yes this is laughable as this is the same government that tells you marijuana is HORRIBLE but yet they are looking our for your interest when it comes to steroids? Yes I will criticize that.

[tttppp]

You are one person, I know many people with zero issues, if that logic fails you I am sorry. And your opinion would have some weight to it if you could at least give me the name of this life changing drug you put in your body. A lot of people have pre medical conditions that they dont even know about and when they start up a cycle it comes to full light as they are putting there bodies threw an extreme routine. So even if you are the "supposed" rare case it still proves its not and end your life drug/horrible as you make it out to be. You are still here even after the fact you put god knows what in your body without knowing 100% about the drug.

Do you not see why I am grinding at you so much on this. You are doing what the liberals do, rehashing government rhetoric without presenting any facts. There are so many snake oils in the body building world its not even funny and usually when someone says they are royally screwed up from it, is because they failed to do the research and get opinions on the subject as it was a scam from the beginning.



And yes this is laughable as this is the same government that tells you marijuana is HORRIBLE but yet they are looking our for your interest when it comes to steroids? Yes I will criticize that.

Here you go with the bullshit government rhetoric again. You may not feel my example is not great evidence, and thats fine. But that is where I got my information from. I am not rehashing government rhetoric. If I had listened to the government I never would have tried steroids. I never would have tried pot. I never would have tried acupuncture. See what I'm getting at. I don't do or say things because the government tells me. Additionally, I never said pot should be illegal. Quit trying to put words in my mouth. There are plenty of people on here where you can get in legitimate arguments with. You don't need to manufacture arguments like this.

Unless you provide me with some sort of point to all your posts, I'll just have to assume you are trolling.

[QuickZ06]

Here you go with the bullshit government rhetoric again. You may not feel my example is not great evidence, and thats fine. But that is where I got my information from. I am not rehashing government rhetoric. If I had listened to the government I never would have tried steroids. I never would have tried pot. I never would have tried acupuncture. See what I'm getting at. I don't do or say things because the government tells me. Additionally, I never said pot should be illegal. Quit trying to put words in my mouth. There are plenty of people on here where you can get in legitimate arguments with. You don't need to manufacture arguments like this.

Unless you provide me with some sort of point to all your posts, I'll just have to assume you are trolling.

Im not trolling as my past post on this site speak volumes, you are not getting what I am saying just because you had a supposed bad experience dose not mean you need to spread w/e about how it the worst drug or how horrible it is. Just say "I took a drug (testosterone booster) that I have no idea what it is anymore but it did not work out for me", thats it. Steroids is keeping aids victims alive for christ sake, it has a great purpose outside of body building. But when you spew that it is horrible that is all people hear. And I understand you are for legalizing it I got that many post ago.

The point I am making is the government is wrong especially on this for the most part, are their side effects, of course. But to think everyone who takes it will have what happened to you is false. You did not like it and your body did not, great. But don't make it sound like it is the end all drug and no one should be using it is not cool.

Marijuana and steroids are illegal for a reason and thinking they spew actual facts about one drug but not the other makes no sense. They are not looking out for us.

At least we can agree on something at least......legalization.

This dead horse has been beat enough.

[tttppp]

Im not trolling as my past post on this site speak volumes, you are not getting what I am saying just because you had a supposed bad experience dose not mean you need to spread w/e about how it the worst drug or how horrible it is. Just say "I took a drug (testosterone booster) that I have no idea what it is anymore but it did not work out for me", thats it. Steroids is keeping aids victims alive for christ sake, it has a great purpose outside of body building. But when you spew that it is horrible that is all people hear. And I understand you are for legalizing it I got that many post ago.

The point I am making is the government is wrong especially on this for the most part, are their side effects, of course. But to think everyone who takes it will have what happened to you is false. You did not like it and your body did not, great. But don't make it sound like it is the end all drug and no one should be using it is not cool.

Marijuana and steroids are illegal for a reason and thinking they spew actual facts about one drug but not the other makes no sense. They are not looking out for us.

At least we can agree on something at least......legalization.

This dead horse has been beat enough.

I was only criticizing you because you seemed to be trying to argue against making steroids and pot illegal, when I am already agreeing that they should be legal. That part is irrelevant to whether they are good for you or not. If you make them legal it will help innovation, finding ways to make them healthier...as well as reducing costs of enforcement.

My experience is my experience. I have a right to say how horrible it is. Even if part of the problem was that I was already unhealthy, people have the right to know what they can do to you if you are unhealthy. Its the type of thing that should only be taken as a last resort in my opinion. There may be other steroids that are not as bad, but I don't have any experience with them. The only thing I have seen regarding them is that it appears as though they have caused health problems in numerous athletes who have taken them for years. There have been several athletes who had an awesome body, then almost overnight their body completely crashes and their body turns to dough and they can't reverse it.

[PaulConventionWV]

This. Not that I follow it anymore after he retired, but to me Armstrong will always be the champ for those 7 years regardless of what they say. He never failed a test. They're just pissed off because he won 7 straight while clean against a field of cheaters.

If you have ever been close to professional in any sport, you would know it doesn't take much to cheat on a drug test. The guy could have had thousands of drug tests and tested negative on all of them, and it wouldn't really remove suspicion. The drug tests are poor indicators of guilt or innocence. All they can do is tell you if someone tests positive. If they test negative, that just means they, for some reason, did not test positive this time.

[PaulConventionWV]

Either he had access to some crazy advanced shit that nobody else knew about or could get, even as a broke unknown during his first win, or he was clean.

I'm going with he was clean. You don't beat several hundred tests over nearly a decade if you're dirty.

You don't understand. It is actually very possible to do this. The tests are inadequate and can never prove innocence. They only prove guilt.

[PaulConventionWV]

No, that's not what I was saying. I said that I want all sports cleaned up, but from jump street, they were acting like cycling was clean and the only folks juicing up were the US Postal team and Lance; in hindsight, that's a crock...the entire sport was dirty. To a large degree, Lance was singled out because he was a super successful American and the French hated that in their event. Lance was doping, but so was everyone else. Let sleeping dogs lie and clean up a dirty sport (probably the dirtiest) going forward. That's the same thing I want for baseball.

It's likely that they were making an example of him. You can't "catch" a bunch of nobodies and expect it to have an effect on people. Catching Lance Armstrong brings loads of attention to the controversy in cycling.

[PaulConventionWV]

Except for the fact that he already had a huge bucket full of wins before the cancer, that makes total sense.

He was talented before, but he was more talented afterward. You can't just get up off your couch and become a superstar by taking drugs or EPO. It's a part of a plan that involves lots of intense training. It helps you to recover from your training so you can train harder than anyone else and recover with less rest.

[PaulConventionWV]

Do we ban people with better genetics to make the playing field more "even" or maybe not allow protein shakes, creatine ect. ect. as they "enhance" your performance and recovery times? When does the line get drawn or does one even need to be drawn? Or do you let bigons be bigons?

What's a bigon? Do you mean bygones, as in times gone by? Because if you really thought bigon was a word, wow. Just wow.

[PaulConventionWV]

I want to see all the athletes "juiced" I would enjoy watching pros even former pros like, Spud Webb slam-dunkin from half court, and 700ft homeruns, 100mph cyclists, 150mph pitches/slapshots.

Let's make sporting events memorable and entertaining

As if we needed those things to make sports memorable and entertaining. It doesn't matter if a cyclist is going 150mph or 50mph. It's testing the human limits that makes athletics what it is. If you watched all the drama of a race play out at 50 mph, would watching it play out the same way at 150mph really make that much of a difference? Sure, they would go really fast, but if that's what you want, go to a NASCAR race and watch them go 200mph and have nasty crashes. People don't watch cycling because they go fast. They watch cycling for the COMPETITION. The competition is what makes racing exciting, not the nominal speed of the racers. Besides, I think cycling is about at its limits even with doping since everyone who ever achieves anything in the sport has been doing it for a long time.

[Muwahid]

Vitamin C has more side effects than steroids. Should we ban vitamin C? Vaginal discharge is one of these side effects from a vitamin, pretty gross and horrible.



Everything you just said is government rhetoric. I never said they were vitamins. You sure do like putting words in my mouth, you have a personal agenda against me?

Look how many people "died" from steroids last year. Bet you its under 10 and even then I still call BS that is was all just steroids.

The big pharma companies are pushing their testosterone boosters for a reason and had steroids banned for a reason. Are seeing the similarities here, pretty much the same as marijuana.

The propaganda on steroids is so good that even liberty minded folks are buying into it. But here is the "kicker" don't believe a dang thing I told you, go research the heck out of it and come up with your own opinion and stay away from anything government funded please.

I agree with you, the vast majority of "terrible" side effects of steroids are temporary, like the testes shrinking, which only happens because they no longer need to produce testosterone, and the effect is reversed eventually. The government crusaded against them since Ben Johnson.

They have adverse effects, but tbh, I hardly consider it cheating. If that's cheating, then taking supplements should be cheating too, or any type of specialized endurance training, if the goal is to get an edge, who cares. It's their bodies.

As far as im concerned anyone saying he "cheated" doesn't realize, everyone "cheats" and if everyone "cheats" it's not really "cheating" is it?

[QuickZ06]

What's a bigon? Do you mean bygones, as in times gone by? Because if you really thought bigon was a word, wow. Just wow.

Autocorrect got me on that and I did not catch it, plus I was about 10 shots in. And yes, I do know it is bygones. Care to rip on me anymore, or can we keep the condescending nazi grammer to ourselves?

You could have came at me at a more friendly minded way, maybe on the lines of "I think you meant bygones lol". We love to eat our own in this movement don't we?

[QuickZ06]

As if we needed those things to make sports memorable and entertaining. It doesn't matter if a cyclist is going 150mph or 50mph. It's testing the human limits that makes athletics what it is. If you watched all the drama of a race play out at 50 mph, would watching it play out the same way at 150mph really make that much of a difference? Sure, they would go really fast, but if that's what you want, go to a NASCAR race and watch them go 200mph and have nasty crashes. People don't watch cycling because they go fast. They watch cycling for the COMPETITION. The competition is what makes racing exciting, not the nominal speed of the racers. Besides, I think cycling is about at its limits even with doping since everyone who ever achieves anything in the sport has been doing it for a long time.

Stem cell is the future for doping, undetectable.

[QuickZ06]

That much is true. Cycling has a ridiculous amount of oversight and regulations. I personally think they should just let people use steroids if they want, but that introduces a very tough dilemma for people who are concerned for their health and the side-effects of steroids. Do they care enough about winning to sacrifice their health? They would pretty much have to do it in order to win, so it's really a tough dilemma.

You have more side effects from drinking fluoride water than steroids. Everything for the most part is reversible.

And it is really not a tough dilemma for the people in sports.

[tttppp]

It's likely that they were making an example of him. You can't "catch" a bunch of nobodies and expect it to have an effect on people. Catching Lance Armstrong brings loads of attention to the controversy in cycling.

In other sports they always go after nobodies and use them as a scapegoat, blaming him for all the steroid problems. I do think its better to go after the big names to clean up the sport, but removing someones titles goes too far especially because everyone else is on steroids. Taking away titles ruins the sport. Everytime they list the past title winners, they are always going to have to discuss Armstrongs steroid abuse to justify what happened during those seven years.

[PaulConventionWV]

Autocorrect got me on that and I did not catch it, plus I was about 10 shots in. And yes, I do know it is bygones. Care to rip on me anymore, or can we keep the condescending nazi grammer to ourselves?

You could have came at me at a more liberty minded way, maybe on the lines of "I think you meant bygones lol". We love to eat our own in this movement don't we?

A more liberty-minded way? What the fuck does that have to do with it? I corrected your grammar. Sorry, I'll make sure I never do it again. Jeez.

How is "I think you meant bygones lol" so much more liberty-oriented?

[QuickZ06]

A more liberty-minded way? What the fuck does that have to do with it? I corrected your grammar. Sorry, I'll make sure I never do it again. Jeez.

How is "I think you meant bygones lol" so much more liberty-oriented?

So out of all the things you could nit pick that I have said in this thread you choose my gammer......and you even knew what I meant, so wgaff?


When one cannot attack the idea, they attack the grammar.

You don't have to be a dick about it. It drives people away from the movement. But seems you have an attitude so w/e, as i'm sure it just attracts so many people to this movement :rolleyes:

And it was suppose to say friendly, don't know why I said liberty. Guess it is just always on my mind....

We done here?

[BlackTerrel]

Awful lot of times and resources dedicated to going after a guy whose been retired almost a decade. Who benefits from that?

[RickyJ]

Awful lot of times and resources dedicated to going after a guy whose been retired almost a decade. Who benefits from that?

He hasn't been retired that long, he raced in 2005. I don't know really why they are going after him. They know it will only hurt the sport, they just don't care I suppose. I never really doubted he was doping, but he isn't the only one by far.

[PaulConventionWV]

So out of all the things you could nit pick that I have said in this thread you choose my gammer......and you even knew what I meant, so wgaff?

You don't have to be a dick about it. It drives people away from the movement. But seems you have an attitude so w/e, as i'm sure it just attracts so many people to this movement :rolleyes:

Whatever. I take the liberty to correct people's grammar more liberally on the internet, but apparently that makes me more anti-liberty, according to you. I just hate how if you don't like someone's attitude on this forum, you just say I'm not "liberty-minded" because I have a bad attitude at times. It makes no sense and is stupid. It also has nothing to do with this liberty movement as a whole, so you can quit that little spiel.

REMINDER TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC: From here forward, everyone is required to tack "lol" onto the end of casual sentences or criticisms so as to not offend anyone and avoid any confrontation whatsoever, which is the "liberty" thing to do, as per my decree. All other behaviors are anti-liberty and will be dealt with with appropriate sanctions on the offender.

[QuickZ06]

Whatever. I take the liberty to correct people's grammar more liberally on the internet, but apparently that makes me more anti-liberty, according to you. I just hate how if you don't like someone's attitude on this forum, you just say I'm not "liberty-minded" because I have a bad attitude at times. It makes no sense and is stupid. It also has nothing to do with this liberty movement as a whole, so you can quit that little spiel.

Do you really have to get all grammar nazi? You knew what I meant and just had to throw the WOW JUST WOW in there yet you said nothing about the rest of the 40 post I posted in this thread. Yes with that attitude you will drive people away and probably already have.

[PaulConventionWV]

Do you really have to get all grammar nazi? You knew what I meant and just had to throw the WOW JUST WOW in there yet you said nothing about the rest of the 40 post I posted in this thread. Yes with that attitude you will drive people away and probably already have.

EXTENDED NOTE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC (see post #120): All persons are hereby required to respond to QuickZ06's posts only in ways that he would respond himself. All other behaviors are anti-liberty and will be dealth with with appropriate sanctions on the offender.

I don't really care about your grammar. Your response to my constructive criticism is what I don't like. Although perhaps I will be less condescending. I refuse to be labeled anti-liberty just because you don't like my attitude, though.

[Zippyjuan]

Lance tested positive twice for banned substances. He claimed it was still in his system due to the anti-cancer drugs he had been taking. Most people in cycling do not buy that.

Actualy his only "failed" test was in 1999 when he tested positive for cortisone cream which was used to treat saddle sores.
http://cyclistsinternational.com/?p=2913

Armstrong has always claimed that he was one of the “most tested,” athletes in the sport, and in any sport worldwide, with over 500 tests over the time that he competed during the time in question, from 1998 to 2007.

And the Yellow Jersey winner never failed one of those tests, with the exception of a finding of cortisone cream use in 1999 for treating saddle sores, charges which Armstrong was cleared of.

Which leads us to the question: what was the USADA pursuing in their complaint against him? Problem is, not even Armstrong knew, which went against the agency’s own rules.

Ten people were lined up to testify against Armstrong in the proceedings, among them allegedly was BMC Team racer George Hincapie who at least at some point in his career was a good friend of Armstrong’s.

Presumably, the USADA prosecutors had real evidence against Hincapie, thereby drawing him into the process. The complaint from USADA said that their witnesses would present testimony that Armstrong took EPO and other performance enhancing drugs, but also foisted those drugs on them.

Hincapie declared at the beginning of this year’s Tour that this would be his last Tour de France, and that he was retiring from professional racing–a preparation perhaps for the information that would come out in the proceedings.

Now, Armstrong has robbed the USADA of their trial which would have displayed the drug allegations against the 10 witnesses, and would have included their verbal testimony against the champion, but would not have provided an ounce of physical evidence against him.



In fact, none of the investigators realize that the way Armstrong won the Tour seven times was not by being the strongest and fastest rider, but by playing the Tour like a chess game–he was the smartest.

Why don’t they know that? To put it simply, they’re Americans who think every game is played with brute force and don’t understand that cunning, planning, and being fit have made the Europeans far superior cyclists.


It is not always the fastest or strongest who wins in cycling but making the right moves at the right time which puts you into a position to win.

[QuickZ06]

EXTENDED NOTE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC (see post #120): All persons are hereby required to respond to QuickZ06's posts only in ways that he would respond himself. All other behaviors are anti-liberty and will be dealth with with appropriate sanctions on the offender.

I don't really care about your grammar. Your response to my constructive criticism is what I don't like. Although perhaps I will be less condescending. I refuse to be labeled anti-liberty just because you don't like my attitude, though.

HAHA, apparently you do. And I told you I have no problem with being correct but it was the tone and manner in which you said it, like you are some superior gammar god. And I never labeled you as ANIT anything especially liberty, again with people putting words in my mouth.

[RickyJ]

It is not always the fastest or strongest who wins in cycling but making the right moves at the right time which puts you into a position to win.

It doesn't have much to do with strength at all, it is an endurance competition, not a sprinting competition. It has to do with skill and endurance. You must know when to break away and go for it, and when to lay low and let others take the lead. It isn't exactly rocket science, all professional riders know this. What separates the top riders in endurance cycling is very little. One small advantage could mean the difference between winning or finishing in last place. They are all great athletes, but many have a win at all costs attitude. You can believe what you want about Lance, but his refusal to even the fight the charges anymore should tell you something.

[Zippyjuan]

Actualy his only "failed" test was in 1999 when he tested positive for cortisone cream which was used to treat saddle sores.
http://cyclistsinternational.com/?p=2913




It is not always the fastest or strongest who wins in cycling but making the right moves at the right time which puts you into a position to win.

The US Government investigated Armstrong- as they did Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds for two years before the USADA announced their investigation- and the case was quietly dropped on Super Bowl weekend so nobody would notice. And he was investigated several times before that- again, all were dropped. In his recent attempt via lawsuit to stop the USADA case, the judge there (who was ruling simply on jurisdiction) criticized the USADA case saying if that was presented in his court with the evidence the reportedly had, he would have thrown them out of his coutroom. He was tested and investigated repeatedly while he was still racing too. He would have been incredibly stupid to be doping when he knew everything he did was being watched.

[tttppp]

It doesn't have much to do with strength at all, it is an endurance competition, not a sprinting competition. It has to do with skill and endurance. You must know when to break away and go for it, and when to lay low and let others take the lead. It isn't exactly rocket science, all professional riders knows this. What separates the top riders in endurance cycling is very little. One small advantage could mean the difference between winning or finishing in last place. They are all great athletes, but many have a win at all costs attitude. You can believe what you want about Lance, but his refusal to even the fight the charges anymore should tell you something.

If he was innocent, he'd be able to get an attorney to take his case for free. There are plenty of really good lawyers willing to work just for the publicity.

[PaulConventionWV]

HAHA, apparently you do. And I told you I have no problem with being correct but it was the tone and manner in which you said it, like you are some superior gammer god. And I never labeled you as ANIT anything especially liberty, again with people putting words in my mouth.

I still fail to see how your packaged response which you offered to me is more "liberty-minded" as per your exact quote. It just has nothing to do with it, but you did try that angle, so don't act like you didn't. It was quite foolish.

I am superior to most people in terms of grammar (not gammer). I do not apologize for making that statement.

[PaulConventionWV]

It doesn't have much to do with strength at all, it is an endurance competition, not a sprinting competition. It has to do with skill and endurance. You must know when to break away and go for it, and when to lay low and let others take the lead. It isn't exactly rocket science, all professional riders knows this. What separates the top riders in endurance cycling is very little. One small advantage could mean the difference between winning or finishing in last place. They are all great athletes, but many have a win at all costs attitude. You can believe what you want about Lance, but his refusal to even the fight the charges anymore should tell you something.

Sometimes it has quite a bit to do with sprinting. Breakaway groups usually fail. The peloton usually catches up to them and whoever can sprint the fastest to the line after idling along for the ride in the pack gets the stage win. That why Mark Cavendish was often successful.

EDIT: That's not always the case in the mountain stages, but the early stages do usually favor sprinters.

[Zippyjuan]

It doesn't have much to do with strength at all, it is an endurance competition, not a sprinting competition. It has to do with skill and endurance. You must know when to break away and go for it, and when to lay low and let others take the lead. It isn't exactly rocket science, all professional riders knows this. What separates the top riders in endurance cycling is very little. One small advantage could mean the difference between winning or finishing in last place. They are all great athletes, but many have a win at all costs attitude. You can believe what you want about Lance, but his refusal to even the fight the charges anymore should tell you something.

It is actually more of a team sport as well- which casual observers may not realize. You cannot win without a good team. If a challenger takes off, you or somebody on your team must try to chase them down or keep an eye on them- not letting them get too far ahead. When you get to the difficult climbs (where the race is often decided) it is not the lead rider but the support riders doing all of the work- the team leader sitting behind them conserving his energy for the finale (drafting behind another rider can save about 30% of the effort the guy in front is putting out). One guy "pulls" for as long and as hard as he can and then he drops aside and the next teammate takes his turn until they are burned out and the leader is on his own. If you don't have as many teammates who can keep up, then you have to do a lot more work and expend more energy which makes you more vulnerable.

Another note about tactics is that they are not racing as hard as they can the entire stage. Except for some riders trying to get off on their own or in small groups for a stage victory, the top riders are hanging out in the pack taking it easy (and keeping an eye on each other). They won't push it hard until nearer the end of the stage (some of which can be over 200 miles and last for hours and hours).

The only really important times during the Tour (generally) are on long climbing stages (where the weak and the weak teams get exposed) and in time trials which are races against the clock (these can be either individual or team) where riders go against the clock and ride alone (unless it is a team time trial) and cannot use any tactics or help from teammates. Small gains in time on these stages are what will separate the winner from the rest of the competitors.

And if you try to make your move too soon you risk running out of energy before you reach the finish line and getting caught by the others chasing after you.

[QuickZ06]

I still fail to see how your packaged response which you offered to me is more "liberty-minded" as per your exact quote. It just has nothing to do with it, but you did try that angle, so don't act like you didn't. It was quite foolish.

I am superior to most people in terms of grammar (not gammer). I do not apologize for making that statement.

I already stated I meant friendly or can you only read what you want? And who exactly have you not smart mouthed off to on this forum just to get a rise?

And that last part is a real gem. You just keep on keepin on.

[Zippyjuan]

I already stated I meant friendly or can you only read what you want? And who exactly have you not smart mouthed off to on this forum just to get a rise?

And that last part is a real gem. You just keep on keepin on.

I think this grammar war has about run its course. It is going nowhere very fast.

[QuickZ06]

I think this grammar war has about run its course. It is going nowhere very fast.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4387/n501600b67d9a6.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/n501600b67d9a6.jpg/)

[Bruno]

And...now he admits it.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

I think this grammar war has about run its course. It is going nowhere very fast.


Source?

*snicker*

[pochy1776]

i don;t want to live on a planet where accusations could kill people

[LibertyEagle]

I am extremely disappointed in him.

[Bruno]

i don;t want to live on a planet where accusations could kill people

But he is admitting it.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

But he is admitting it.


Is it incentivised somehow? (Real question... I have no idea...)

[Bruno]

Is it incentivised somehow? (Real question... I have no idea...)

No idea what he would get out of it aside from a clear conscience. Far more to lose, I would think. But I doubt he would all of a sudden lie that he was in fact doping.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

No idea what he would get out of it aside from a clear conscience. Far more to lose, I would think. But I doubt he would all of a sudden lie that he was in fact doping.


I was thinking since that had pretty much been accepted as truth and he has suffered the consequences of such, he doesn't have much left to lose, either. That could leave some people willing to make an offer in exchange for????

[Bruno]

I was thinking since that had pretty much been accepted as truth and he has suffered the consequences of such, he doesn't have much left to lose, either. That could leave some people willing to make an offer in exchange for????

My money is on him simply not being willing or able to deny it any longer.

[sparebulb]

I always thought that Armstrong was a putz. But I could easily ignore him and his legions of spandex-wearing, road-hogging, self-absorbed, two-wheeled douches. I started liking him a bit more when I thought that he was improving himself through the miracle of chemistry. But now that he has confessed his sins to Okra, and has sought redemption from her media industrial complex, I now think that he is a rival to Jon Edwards as being the biggest douche in the universe.

[BAllen]

Pete Rose is another one. He only bet for his team to win, proving he didn't throw any games, yet he is still banned from baseball.
Really stupid.

[Zippyjuan]

But he is admitting it.

Show hasn't aired yet, but Oprah was still dissappointed in what Armstrong had to say. In the past, he would have gone on the Larrry King show for some "no hard questions" confessional.


Why do we get the terrible feeling that once the Lance Armstrong’s televised handwringing is over, the one who’s going to end up apologizing is Oprah Winfrey?

The top-secret (Maxwell Smart Division) meeting has been common knowledge for a week. They taped the show on Monday.

What we’d hoped for is a confession. More importantly, that’s what’s being sold.

Apparently, that’s not quite what we’re going to get.

“I would say he did not come clean in the manner I had expected,” Winfrey told CBS This Morning on Tuesday. “It was surprising to me.”

Surprising? This man has lied his way through all manner of quasi-legal proceedings, thrown nearly every friend he ever had under the rear wheels, and you thought a soft colour scheme and a loveseat was going to break him?

Winfrey is above all a competent salesperson, so she was not about to write off the whole exercise.

“I think you will be satisfied,” she said of the interview.

That’s certainly true if you have some time to fill. Originally planned to air for 90 minutes on Thursday evening, the interview will now be spread over two nights on Oprah’s OWN network.

The only satisfaction will come if Armstrong is forthright. That would be a first. No weasel words, no ‘Well, you have to understand . . . ”s. And about more than doping. Armstrong is not accused of being a cheat. He’s accused of being the Cheater-in-Chief. He’s been part of an ongoing and abortive process to give some sort of confession to cycling and doping authorities. When that process hit the skids, Armstrong turned to Oprah.

Few men in history have had so strong an urge to stage manage their own terminal decline.

From this vantage, this sounds as if it will end in disappointment (and Thursday night must certainly end that way — why else would we tune in Friday?).


http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/1315182--lance-armstrong-oprah-wiinfrey-interview-sounds-like-it-ll-end-in-disappointment-kelly

I used to be a big supporter and wanted to believe him. Then I read the reports from the USADA and had no doubts he was doping. Now I really don't care what he does.

[vita3]

Lance was a fraud & a liar

Just Another example of a complete hoodwink in clear view of American viewing public

[Confederate]

Saw this on FB


https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/14885_4593685353463_194247246_n.jpg

Im so sick of hearing about Lance Armstrong but I still like a nice Bicycle.

[Zippyjuan]

Check out the music video of Bicycle Race by Queen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1hFcYxzHQs
NSFW