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IDefendThePlatform
08-22-2012, 07:05 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/20/want-a-global-economic-boom-open-the-borders/

Seraphim
08-22-2012, 07:11 PM
This is a solution that will come about naturally at some point in human history - it is our fate. That being said, it will not happen in this lifetime for any of us. That's okay, the state of being for humanity is not quite ready for it, although getting close (relatively speaking).

Anti Federalist
08-22-2012, 07:19 PM
Oh joy.

A one world mass of humanity, all consuming their way to well regulated and world government defined happiness, under the watchful eye of the global surveillance grid.

Glad I won't be alive to see it.

And since when are the blog postings of the likes of Ezra Klein considered good fodder for a "liberty forum"?

Anti Federalist
08-22-2012, 07:36 PM
He estimates that fully eliminating immigration restrictions worldwide would effectively double the world’s labor supply. This, unsurprisingly, leads to enormous economic growth, such that typical workers in developing countries would see annual wages more than double

Is labor a "majik" commodity?

The only commodity that increases in value when there is more of it?

emazur
08-22-2012, 08:07 PM
But once capital adjusts between countries to account for the new situation, the wage decline goes away and workers in rich countries do just as well as they were doing before.


What the author doesn't account for is the hidden cost of statism. The inflow of immigrants will lead to a politicians pandering to get their votes by promising to give special handouts for these "disadvantaged poor minorities". Or at the least, it will encourage the political parties to run candidates of a certain ethnicity, regardless of their qualifications, in certain areas so that they can get the votes of one of their own. Does anyone seriously think this wouldn't happen? Democrats already get the black vote by pandering (Kerry in 2004 won 88%, Obama in 2008 won 95%), but similar things can happen w/ Republicans - 2/3 of Mormons are Republican~Republican leaning yet Romney got 90% of the Mormon vote. That's not a coincidence.

Milton Friedman had it right - open borders are no compatible with the welfare state. I didn't watch much of the 2012 LP debates, but in the '08 Reason debate pretty much every LP candidate said the same thing

Seraphim
08-22-2012, 08:12 PM
Real productivity increases the purchasing power of labor, which equates to wage growth in real terms. Specialization of labor is a wonderful thing.

The flood of labor in and of itself is obviously going to dillute the value of current labor, EXCEPT in freedom oriented areas where the labor is unfettered and flourishes, flooding the economy with real goods and services.

The USA is a prime example of how freeing labor creates incredible value and actually raises the value of labor. Sure you get more labor, which on the surface dillutes current labor...but since we are not Marxists, we know that not all labor is created equal. Productive labor, even as it floods the market, does increase the purchasing power of anyone working. Yay for specilization :).

**Im not actually supporting the author**


Is labor a "majik" commodity?

The only commodity that increases in value when there is more of it?

Anti Federalist
08-22-2012, 08:41 PM
;)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein



Real productivity increases the purchasing power of labor, which equates to wage growth in real terms. Specialization of labor is a wonderful thing.

The flood of labor in and of itself is obviously going to dillute the value of current labor, EXCEPT in freedom oriented areas where the labor is unfettered and flourishes, flooding the economy with real goods and services.

The USA is a prime example of how freeing labor creates incredible value and actually raises the value of labor. Sure you get more labor, which on the surface dillutes current labor...but since we are not Marxists, we know that not all labor is created equal. Productive labor, even as it floods the market, does increase the purchasing power of anyone working. Yay for specilization :).

**Im not actually supporting the author**

Origanalist
08-22-2012, 08:43 PM
;)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

Amen brother.

QuickZ06
08-22-2012, 10:13 PM
;)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

WOW, good stuff.

mad cow
08-22-2012, 10:13 PM
Specialization creates wealth.

I am not in favor of the free flow of labor among countries,but I am all in favor of the free flow of capital in and especially out of all countries without restriction.That would create wealth.

QuickZ06
08-22-2012, 10:14 PM
Maybe one day we can all actually play adult and do something productive in this universe besides killing each other off.

Danan
08-22-2012, 10:20 PM
;)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

Why?

If we specialize we increase overall production. I don't see the point in doing all that stuff by myself when I could do what I'm best in and pay others for what they are specialized in with the money I earn from my profession. It's completely unnecessary to learn how to do/build/fix most stuff when I could earn more money in the time I need to learn and execute these actions.

AuH20
08-22-2012, 10:26 PM
Is this article serious???? Unskilled labor is going to lead to an economic boom??? This isn't the late 1800s when you actually needed grunt labor to build the railroads west or toil in the coal mines.

Danan
08-22-2012, 10:31 PM
Is this article serious???? Unskilled labor is going to lead to an economic boom??? This isn't the late 1800s when you actually needed grunt labor to build the railroads west or toil in the coal mines.

There's still demand for unskilled labor and there are enough people willing to do anything for little pay that nobody does now.

Specialization and greater division of labor will always result in greater overall productivity.

mad cow
08-22-2012, 10:33 PM
I never liked that Heinlein quote,He got it ass backwards.
It is the ant in the anthill that is the identical cog in the machine,not the doctor,mechanic,carpenter and such that specialize.

Anti Federalist
08-22-2012, 10:41 PM
Why?

If we specialize we increase overall production. I don't see the point in doing all that stuff by myself when I could do what I'm best in and pay others for what they are specialized in with the money I earn from my profession. It's completely unnecessary to learn how to do/build/fix most stuff when I could earn more money in the time I need to learn and execute these actions.

Because there is more to life than the bottom line.

Lack of knowledge and capability makes one utterly dependent on others and makes one, as an individual, boorish and dull.

Anti Federalist
08-22-2012, 10:44 PM
I never liked that Heinlein quote,He got it ass backwards.
It is the ant in the anthill that is the identical cog in the machine,not the doctor,mechanic,carpenter and such that specialize.

All those jobs are becoming extinct.

There will be no more doctors.

Specialists, yes.

The Gold Standard
08-22-2012, 10:49 PM
If there were sufficient capital goods to make all of that labor productive, the increase in our standard of living would skyrocket. Unfortunately, only market prices can determine how many capital goods and of what type we would need to accomplish that, and the central planners of the world do their best to destroy capital, steal it, and distort market prices, so it would just end up in worldwide misery. The same as it would end up with closed borders.

specsaregood
08-22-2012, 10:53 PM
Why?

If we specialize we increase overall production. I don't see the point in doing all that stuff by myself when I could do what I'm best in and pay others for what they are specialized in with the money I earn from my profession. It's completely unnecessary to learn how to do/build/fix most stuff when I could earn more money in the time I need to learn and execute these actions.

Must be a personal thing, but I'd think it would really suck to have to get other people to do "most stuff" for me.

Danan
08-22-2012, 10:56 PM
Because there is more to life than the bottom line.

Lack of knowledge and capability makes one utterly dependent on others and makes one, as an individual, boorish and dull.

I prefer to spend my leisure on things a really enjoy, rather than on stuff I might need in case of an apocalypse. Of course there's nothing wrong if one enjoys to learn and carry out all those different skills. But don't insinuate that people who don't like to do that are somehow inferior.

I personally have a whole lot of different interests, but there's still plenty of stuff I can't do and I'm not interested in learning it. I'm more intrigued in searching for truth and knowledge than in learning how to fix my toilett myself. Does that make me boorish and dull?

The Gold Standard
08-22-2012, 11:01 PM
Because there is more to life than the bottom line.

Lack of knowledge and capability makes one utterly dependent on others and makes one, as an individual, boorish and dull.

People should know how to take care of themselves. That doesn't mean they should have to make a living that way.

mad cow
08-22-2012, 11:07 PM
Even if only two people survive the apocalypse,they will create more wealth if they specialize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_Crusoe_Economy


How dull or boorish one is has many roots.

specsaregood
08-22-2012, 11:10 PM
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein
Reviewing the list, I think I had the learned/practiced the fundamentals to do or attempt to do all that by middle school. I guess my parents did a good job.

IDefendThePlatform
08-23-2012, 12:45 PM
I prefer to spend my leisure on things a really enjoy, rather than on stuff I might need in case of an apocalypse. Of course there's nothing wrong if one enjoys to learn and carry out all those different skills. But don't insinuate that people who don't like to do that are somehow inferior.

I personally have a whole lot of different interests, but there's still plenty of stuff I can't do and I'm not interested in learning it. I'm more intrigued in searching for truth and knowledge than in learning how to fix my toilett myself. Does that make me boorish and dull?

+1

Anti Federalist
08-23-2012, 12:52 PM
I never liked that Heinlein quote,He got it ass backwards.
It is the ant in the anthill that is the identical cog in the machine,not the doctor,mechanic,carpenter and such that specialize.

We've talked in PMs about what we each do for a living.

So as not to give out any private details, I'd only say that you, or I for that matter, could not have done our jobs effectively and successfully without wearing twenty different hats and having a skill set far beyond one narrow specialty.

Anti Federalist
08-23-2012, 12:56 PM
Must be a personal thing, but I'd think it would really suck to have to get other people to do "most stuff" for me.

I find it mind boggling that I have run across young men, graduates of four year schools with a bachelor of science degree that, literally, did not know how to change a tire on a car.

specsaregood
08-23-2012, 01:10 PM
I find it mind boggling that I have run across young men, graduates of four year schools with a bachelor of science degree that, literally, did not know how to change a tire on a car.

I think I was about 12 when my dad let me learn the hard way that you loosen the lugnuts before jacking the car up.

pochy1776
08-23-2012, 03:08 PM
;)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein
Then I guest doctors are insects. Face it, not every Internal Medicine Resident can do surgery, nephrology, or even do psychotherapy. Not every pediatrician could give out the right psychotropic. Why do you think we specialize: it saves time, expertise and delegates talents. Some people are good with pharmacological algorithams and some are good with drilling bone. Some of the sub specialist have to do extra training called Fellowships.

ExPatPaki
08-23-2012, 03:15 PM
Then I guest doctors are insects. Face it, not every Internal Medicine Resident can do surgery, nephrology, or even do psychotherapy. Not every pediatrician could give out the right psychotropic. Why do you think we specialize: it saves time, expertise and delegates talents. Some people are good with pharmacological algorithams and some are good with drilling bone. Some of the sub specialist have to do extra training called Fellowships.

Are you doing a residency/fellowship? What is your specialty?

Ender
08-23-2012, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by mad cow
I never liked that Heinlein quote,He got it ass backwards.
It is the ant in the anthill that is the identical cog in the machine,not the doctor,mechanic,carpenter and such that specialize.

That's baloney- Heinlein is spot-on.

You can still be a doctor and change your own tires for God's sake.

The ant and the cog in the machine is the person that can only do one thing. When that one thing isn't necessary anymore- what then?

A real man is a Renaissance man - capable of doing many things and doing them well.

Seraphim
08-23-2012, 03:37 PM
Diversified knowledge is a great thing, but it's not necessary for everyone. It's vastly more productive for most people to become very, very good at a small number of things, then be good at many things.

Specialization is a massive contributor to quality of life, both spiritual and material. A free labor market allows people to choose things they are passionate about and build a specific set of skills that allow them to flourish both economically and creatively.

A free labor market also ensures that you are free to be a Jack of All Trades. A skilled Jack of All Trades is a commodity that will never go out of style.

:-)





Because there is more to life than the bottom line.

Lack of knowledge and capability makes one utterly dependent on others and makes one, as an individual, boorish and dull.

mad cow
08-23-2012, 04:35 PM
That's baloney- Heinlein is spot-on.

You can still be a doctor and change your own tires for God's sake.

The ant and the cog in the machine is the person that can only do one thing. When that one thing isn't necessary anymore- what then?

A real man is a Renaissance man - capable of doing many things and doing them well.

I went to the doctor yesterday,in fact.I couldn't care less if he can change his own tire,play the banjo or if he was a world class synchronized diver,I was paying him to be a doctor.

Probably everyone in that building and a huge majority of those I passed driving there would be better doctors than I would ever be if I spent the rest of my life studying medicine.

And I am sure most of them couldn't care less that I might be better than them at changing tires or any of the other things that I AM good at.

The ant in the ant hill is just as good as all the other ants are at what they do.
He is a renaissance ant.

pochy1776
08-23-2012, 05:46 PM
Are you doing a residency/fellowship? What is your specialty?
I am not a doctor, i just know a lot about the system, i am also only a stupid 15 year old miseducated person turned right-wing libertarian. I used to know a few psychiatrists. The FDA, USDA and other bureaucracy suck the life out of allopathic medicine, turning it into a misguided piece of shit. That is why shits like Mercola are popular, they are less bureaucratic and put the patient in power. The fact that medical technology and drugs are advancing in the united states and NOT Europe OR Asia is in spite of the AMA and LCME not because of it. At least the latter are private. Are you are MD/DO.

pochy1776
08-23-2012, 05:47 PM
Diversified knowledge is a great thing, but it's not necessary for everyone. It's vastly more productive for most people to become very, very good at a small number of things, then be good at many things.

Specialization is a massive contributor to quality of life, both spiritual and material. A free labor market allows people to choose things they are passionate about and build a specific set of skills that allow them to flourish both economically and creatively.

A free labor market also ensures that you are free to be a Jack of All Trades. A skilled Jack of All Trades is a commodity that will never go out of style.

:-)

If it is profitable and/or useful in the consumer's eyes it will be preserved one way or another. From a small haberdashery to competitors. Competition makes things better. Basic laws of economics.

ExPatPaki
08-24-2012, 02:23 PM
I am not a doctor, i just know a lot about the system, i am also only a stupid 15 year old miseducated person turned right-wing libertarian. I used to know a few psychiatrists. The FDA, USDA and other bureaucracy suck the life out of allopathic medicine, turning it into a misguided piece of shit. That is why shits like Mercola are popular, they are less bureaucratic and put the patient in power. The fact that medical technology and drugs are advancing in the united states and NOT Europe OR Asia is in spite of the AMA and LCME not because of it. At least the latter are private. Are you are MD/DO.

No, I'm not an MD or DO. I have a brother who is MD and my wife's sister is a DO. I also used to work for the LCME so I know what you're talking about.

idiom
08-24-2012, 03:11 PM
Anything specialised enough can be done by a machine.

Friends of mine moved from India to New Zealand. They didn't even know how to change light bulbs. They were used to phoning somebody to come and deal with every little household detail.

In New Zealand if you can't do a decent job of something yourself you are much more likely to get very very stuck.

If find it quite difficult to argue that India's economy is a vastly more efficient than New Zealand's.

Although they are getting the real costs of heart surgeries below $100 a hit. Maybe that is worth giving up light bulbs for...

Carson
08-24-2012, 03:39 PM
Looks pretty open already from where I sit.

Feeding the Abscess
09-09-2012, 02:25 AM
Oh joy.

A one world mass of humanity, all consuming their way to well regulated and world government defined happiness, under the watchful eye of the global surveillance grid.

Glad I won't be alive to see it.

And since when are the blog postings of the likes of Ezra Klein considered good fodder for a "liberty forum"?

From none other than Mises:


The greater productivity of work under the division of labor is a unifying influence. It leads men to regard each other as comrades in a joint struggle for welfare, rather than as competitors in a struggle for existence. It makes friends out of enemies, peace out of war, society out of individuals.

Globalism is a wonderful thing, and make no mistake, our struggle is a global one. It's one of free people and free ideas versus those who wish to impede on them, whether by taxation, regulation, tariff, restriction of travel, imprisonment, or outright murder.

truelies
09-09-2012, 08:47 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/20/want-a-global-economic-boom-open-the-borders/


Pure destruction for 99.9% of humanity

Anti Federalist
09-09-2012, 09:50 AM
From none other than Mises:


The greater productivity of work under the division of labor is a unifying influence. It leads men to regard each other as comrades in a joint struggle for welfare, rather than as competitors in a struggle for existence. It makes friends out of enemies, peace out of war, society out of individuals.

Globalism is a wonderful thing, and make no mistake, our struggle is a global one. It's one of free people and free ideas versus those who wish to impede on them, whether by taxation, regulation, tariff, restriction of travel, imprisonment, or outright murder.

Mises and the "free traders" are just flat wrong on this.

Makes "friends out of enemies, peace out of war"?

We've been waging wars on our "trading partners" for over a 100 years now.

He is right, in this regard, however: "society out of individuals".

No doubt there, you will cease to be a free and independent individual and will become absorbed into the "hive" of "society" as all this progresses.

Feeding the Abscess
09-09-2012, 12:41 PM
Mises and the "free traders" are just flat wrong on this.

Makes "friends out of enemies, peace out of war"?

We've been waging wars on our "trading partners" for over a 100 years now.

He is right, in this regard, however: "society out of individuals".

No doubt there, you will cease to be a free and independent individual and will become absorbed into the "hive" of "society" as all this progresses.

Right, governments have been waging wars. Free trade is me interacting with some dude in Afghanistan. Or Pakistan. Or Somalia. Or Germany. Free trade is not the United States doing business with country X.

Free trade is removing the government and allowing peaceful, voluntary interaction between people to flourish.

You'll get it some day. The same government that fucks up policing, foreign policy, and everything else it touches cannot possibly manage the international economy.

Victor Grey
09-09-2012, 07:18 PM
The argument of being a jack of all trades isn't an effective argument against the division of labor.

Nor is division of labor any particularly strong criticism of being a jack of all trades.