20 years ago today, FBI snipers murdered a family in Idaho. Remember Ruby Ridge.

[Anti Federalist]

Some say it was just another skirmish in a war that has been going on for longer than that.

I say these two incidents, Ruby Ridge and Waco, for a number of different reasons, were the opening salvos in the war on us that is continuing and intensifying, to this day.



Remember Ruby Ridge

August 21, 2012 @ 7:19 AM by Tim Lynch

http://www.policemisconduct.net/

Today marks the 20th anniversary of the Ruby Ridge scandal.

Here is an article that I wrote on the case ten years ago:

“Ruby Ridge” used to refer to a geographical location in the state of Idaho, but after an incident that took place there 10 years ago on Aug. 21, the phrase has come to refer to a scandalous series of events that opened the eyes of many people to the inner workings of the federal government, including the vaunted Federal Bureau of Investigation. Now that 10 years have passed, the feds will accelerate their ongoing effort to “move forward” and have the scandal declared “ancient history.” But the Ruby Ridge episode should not be soon forgotten.

On August 21, 1992 a paramilitary unit of the U.S. Marshals Service ventured onto the 20-acre property known as Ruby Ridge. A man named Randy Weaver owned the land and he lived there with his wife, children, and a family friend, Kevin Harris. There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver’s arrest for a firearms offense and the marshals were surveilling the premises. When the family dog noticed the marshals sneaking around in the woods, it began to bark wildly. Weaver’s 14-year-old boy, Sammy, and Kevin Harris proceeded to grab their rifles because they thought the dog had come upon a wild animal.

A firefight erupted when a marshal shot and killed the dog. Enraged that the family pet had been cut down for no good reason, Sammy shot into the woods at the unidentified trespasser. Within a few minutes, two human beings were shot dead: Sammy Weaver and a marshal. Harris and the Weaver family retreated to their cabin and the marshals retreated from the mountain and called the FBI for assistance.

During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal “shoot to kill” orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver’s wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender.

After an 11-day standoff, Weaver agreed to surrender. The FBI told the world that it had apprehended a band of dangerous racists. The New York Times was duped into describing a family (two parents, three children) and one adult friend as “an armed separatist brigade.” The Department of Justice proceeded to take over the case, charging Weaver and Harris with conspiracy to commit “murder.” Federal prosecutors asked an Idaho jury to impose the death penalty. Instead, the jury acquitted Weaver and Harris of all of the serious criminal charges.

Embarrassed by the outcome, FBI officials told the world that there would be a thorough review of the case, but the Bureau closed ranks and covered up the mess. FBI director Louis Freeh went so far as to promote one of the agents involved, Larry Potts, to the Bureau’s number-two position.

When Weaver sued the federal government for the wrongful death of his wife and son, the government that had tried to kill him twice now sought an out-of-court settlement. In August 1995 the U.S. government paid the Weaver family $3.1 million. On the condition that his name not be used in an article, one Department of Justice official told the Washington Post that if Weaver’s suit had gone to trial in Idaho, he probably would have been awarded $200 million.

With the intervening events at Waco, more and more people began to question the veracity of Department of Justice and FBI accounts and whether the federal government had the capacity to hold its own agents accountable for criminal misconduct. Like the Watergate scandal, however, the response to the initial illegality turned out to be even more shocking and disturbing.

When an FBI supervisor, Michael Kahoe, admitted to destroying evidence and obstructing justice, he was eventually prosecuted but only after being kept on the FBI payroll until his 50th birthday — so that he would be eligible for his retirement pension. And when Larry Potts was finally forced into retirement, FBI officials flew into Washington from around the country for his going-away bash. Those officials claimed to be on “official business” so they billed the taxpayers for the trip. After the fraud was leaked to the press by some anonymous and apparently sickened FBI agent, the merry band of partygoers were not discharged from service. Instead, a letter was placed in their personnel file, chiding them with “inattention to detail.”

An Idaho prosecutor did bring manslaughter charges against the FBI sniper who shot Vicki Weaver. That move really outraged the feds because they insisted that they were capable of policing their own — so long as they did not have any outside “interference.”

The Department of Justice was so disturbed by the indictment of its agent that they dispatched the solicitor general to a federal appellate court to argue that the charges should be dismissed. (The solicitor general ordinarily only makes oral arguments to the Supreme Court). The solicitor general told the judicial panel that even if the evidence supported the charges, the case should be thrown out because “federal law enforcement agents are privileged to do what would otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen.” The appeals court rejected that sweeping argument for a license to kill, but by the time that ruling came down last June, a new local prosecutor was in office in Boundary County, Idaho, and he announced that it was time to put this whole unpleasant episode behind us and to “move on.” Thus, the criminal case against the sniper was dropped.

A new generation of young people who have never heard of Ruby Ridge are now emerging from the public school system and are heading off to college and will thereafter begin their careers in business, education, journalism, government and other fields. This generation will find it hard to fathom that the federal government could have killed a boy and an unarmed woman and then tried to deceive everyone about what had actually occurred and, in some instances, rationalize what did occur. That is why it is important to remember Ruby Ridge. Someone needs to remind the young people (and everyone else) that it really did happen — and that it will happen again if the government is not kept on a short leash. No one will learn about the incident when they tour the FBI facility in Washington. It goes unmentioned for some reason.
Much has been written about Ruby Ridge–some of it good, some of it bad. For those interested in reading more, go here, here, and here (pdf).

This mini-documentary about the Ruby Ridge scandal is also well done.

Observation: When liberals find police misconduct at the local level, they tend to turn too quickly to the federal authorities to remedy the problem–as if the feds always come riding to the rescue. Not so. As noted, their hands are not so clean. Please remember that.

[AuH20]

Wasn't Larry Potts at both Waco and Ruby Ridge?

[Anti Federalist]

Wasn't Larry Potts at both Waco and Ruby Ridge?

I think you're thinking of Lon Horiuchi.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Potts was at both either.

[Danke]

http://www.angelqueen.org/images/misc/hs_precision.jpg

[libertyjam]

[QUOTE=Anti Federalist;4593190]I think you're thinking of Lon Horichui.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Potts was at both either.[/QUOTE

They were both there at both

[Anti Federalist]

H-S Precision has received comments relating to individual testimonials in our 2008 catalog. All of the testimonials focused on the quality, accuracy and customer service provided by H-S Precision.

The management of H-S Precision did not intend to offend anyone or create any type of controversy. We are revising our 2009 catalog and removing all product testimonials.

http://gunnuts.net/2008/12/05/h-s-precision-releases-statement-on-lon-horiuchi-controversy/

They walked that endorsement back, although half heartedly.

[Anti Federalist]

I think you're thinking of Lon Horichui.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Potts was at both either.

They were both there at both

Yah, I'm shocked.

Did he have an active shooter's role?

Or was he serving as a REMF?

[libertyjam]

http://gunnuts.net/2008/12/05/h-s-precision-releases-statement-on-lon-horiuchi-controversy/

They walked that endorsement back, although half heartedly.

I have an H-S P stock, they make good stuff, I do not know why LH is still walking around breathing.

[libertyjam]

Yah, I'm shocked.

Did he have an active shooter's role?

Or was he serving as a REMF?

AFAIK he had an ext. range participation.

[donnay]

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/spenceg.jpg
Defense lawyer Gerry Spence

The following excerpt comes from Gerry Spence's From Freedom to Slavery, the Rebirth of Freedom in America (1996)(pp. 13-50). It is reprinted here with the permission of the author. It includes a letter that the Wyoming defense lawyer wrote to a friend who had urged that he withdraw from the Weaver case. Spence's friend, the Jewish former CEO of Columbia Pictures, expressed concern that Spence's defense of Weaver would lend credibility to the "despicable" racist and neo-Nazi groups with which the Weaver family had been associated.

Randy Weaver's wife was dead, shot through the head while she clutched her child to her breast. His son was shot, twice. First they shot the child's arm, probably destroyed the arm. The child cried out. Then, as the child was running they shot him in the back. Randy Weaver himself had been shot and wounded and Kevin Harris, a kid the Weavers had all but adopted was dying of a chest wound. The blood hadn't cooled on Ruby Hill before the national media announced that I had taken the defense of Randy Weaver. Then all hell broke loose. My sister wrote me decrying my defense of this "racist". There were letters to the editors in several papers that expressed their disappointment that I would lend my services to a person with Weaver's beliefs. And I received a letter from my close friend Alan Hirschfield, the former chairman of chief executive officer of Columbia Pictures and Twentieth Century Fox, imploring me to withdraw.

He wrote:

"After much thought I decided to write this letter to you. It represents a very profound concern on my part regarding your decision to represent Randy Weaver. While I applaud and fully understand your motives in taking such a case, I nonetheless find this individual defense troubling. It is so because of the respectability and credibility your involvement imparts to a cause which I find despicable...."

The next morning I delivered the following letter by carrier to Mr. Hirschfield:

"I cherish your letter. It reminds me once again of our friendship, for only friends can speak and hear each other in matters so deeply a part of the soul. And your letter reminds me as well, as we must all be reminded, of the unspeakable pain every Jew has suffered from the horrors of the Holocaust. No better evidence of our friendship could be shown than your intense caring concerning what I do and what I stand for.

I met Randy Weaver in jail on the evening of his surrender. His eyes had no light in them. He was unshaven and dirty. He was naked except for yellow plastic prison coveralls, and he was cold. His small feet were clad in rubber prison sandals. In the stark setting of the prison conference room he seemed diminutive and fragile. He had spent 11 days and nights in a standoff against the government and he had lost. His wife was dead. His son was dead. His friend was near death. Weaver himself had been wounded. He had lost his freedom. He had lost it all. And now he stood face to face with a stranger who towered over him and whose words were not words of comfort. When I spoke, you, Alan, were on my mind.

"My name is Gerry Spence" I began. "I'm the lawyer you've been told about. Before we begin to talk I want you to understand that I do not share any of your political or religious beliefs. Many of my dearest friends are Jews. My daughter is married to a Jew. My sister is married to a black man. She has adopted a black child. I deplore what the Nazis stand for. If I defend you I will not defend your political beliefs or your religious beliefs, but your right as an American citizen to a fair trial." His quiet answer was, "That is all I ask." Then I motioned him to a red plastic chair and I took a similar one. And as the guards marched by and from time to time peered in, he told his story.

Alan, you are a good and fair man. That I know. Were it otherwise we would not be such friends. Yet it is your pain I hear most clearly--exacerbated, I know, by the fact that your friend should represent your enemy. Yet what drew me to this case was my own pain. Let me tell you the facts.

Randy Weaver's principal crime against the government had been his failure to appear in court on a charge of possessing illegal firearms. The first crime was not his. He had been entrapped--intentionally, systematically, patiently, purposefully entrapped--by a federal agent who solicited him to cut off, contrary to Federal law, the barrels of a couple of shotguns. Randy Weaver never owned an illegal weapon in his life. He was not engaged in the manufacture of illegal weapons. The idea of selling an illegal firearm had never entered his mind until the government agent suggested it and encouraged him to act illegally. The government knew he needed the money. He is as poor as an empty cupboard. He had three daughters, a son and a wife to support. He lived in a small house in the woods without electricity or running water. Although he is a small, frail man, with tiny, delicate hands who probably weighs no more than a hundred and twenty pounds, he made an honest living by chopping firewood and by seasonal work as a logger.

This man is wrong, his beliefs are wrong. His relationship to mankind is wrong. He was perhaps legally wrong when he failed to appear and defend himself in court. But the first wrong was not his. Nor was the first wrong the government's. The first wrong was ours.

In this country we embrace the myth that we are still a democracy when we know that we are not a democracy, that we are not free, that the government does not serve us but subjugates us. Although we give lip service to the notion of freedom, we know the government is no longer the servant of the people but, at last has become the people's master. We have stood by like timid sheep while the wolf killed, first the weak, then the strays, then those on the outer edges of the flock, until at last the entire flock belonged to the wolf. We did not care about the weak or about the strays. They were not a part of the flock. We did not care about those on the outer edges. They had chosen to be there. But as the wolf worked its way towards the center of the flock we discovered that we were now on the outer edges. Now we must look the wolf squarely in the eye. That we did not do so when the first of us was ripped and torn and eaten was the first wrong. It was our wrong.

That none of us felt responsible for having lost our freedom has been a part of an insidious progression. In the beginning the attention of the flock was directed not to the marauding wolf but to our own deviant members within the flock. We rejoiced as the wolf destroyed them for they were our enemies. We were told that the weak lay under the rocks while we faced the blizzards to rustle our food, and we did not care when the wolf took them. We argued that they deserved it. When one of our flock faced the wolf alone it was always eaten. Each of us was afraid of the wolf, but as a flock we were not afraid. Indeed the wolf cleansed the herd by destroying the weak and dismembering the aberrant element within. As time went by, strangely, the herd felt more secure under the rule of the wolf. It believed that by belonging to this wolf it would remain safe from all the other wolves. But
we were eaten just the same.

No one knows better than children of the Holocaust how the lessons of history must never be forgotten. Yet Americans, whose battle cry was once, "Give me liberty or give me death", have sat placidly by as a new king was crowned. In America a new king was crowned by the shrug of our shoulders when our neighbors were wrongfully seized. A new king was crowned when we capitulated to a regime that is no longer sensitive to people, but to non-people--to corporations, to money and to power. The new king was crowned when we turned our heads as the new king was crowned as we turned our heads as the poor and the forgotten and the damned were rendered mute and defenseless, not because they were evil but because, in the scheme of our lives, they seemed unimportant, not because they were essentially dangerous but because they were essentially powerless. The new king was crowned when we cheered the government on as it prosecuted the progeny of our ghettos and filled our prisons with black men whose first crime was that they were born in the ghettos. We cheered the new king on as it diluted our right to be secure in our homes against unlawful searches and to be secure in the courts against unlawful evidence. We cheered the new king on because we were told that our sacred rights were but "loopholes" but which our enemies: the murderers and rapists and thieves and drug dealers, escaped. We were told that those who fought for our rights, the lawyers, were worse than the thieves who stole from us in the night, that our juries were irresponsible and ignorant and ought not to be trusted. We watched with barely more than a mumble as the legal system that once protected us became populated with judges who were appointed by the new king. At last the new king was crowned when we forgot the lessons of history, that when the rights of our enemies have been wrested from them, we have lost our own rights as well, for the same rights serve both citizen and criminal.

When Randy Weaver failed to appear in court because he had lost his trust in the government we witnessed the fruit of our crime. The government indeed had no intent to protect his rights. The government had but one purpose, as it remains today, the disengagement of this citizen from society. Those who suffered and died in the Holocaust must have exquisitely understood such illicit motivations of power.

I have said that I was attracted to the case out of my own pain. Let me tell you the facts: a crack team of trained government marksmen sneaked on to Randy Weaver's small isolated acreage on a reconnaissance mission preparatory to a contemplated arrest. They wore camouflage suits and were heavily armed. They gave Randy no warning of their coming. They came without a warrant. They never identified themselves.

The Weavers owned 3 dogs, 2 small crossbred collie mutts and a yellow lab, a big pup a little over a year old whose most potent weapon was his tail with which he could beat a full grown man to death. The dog, Striker, was a close member of the Weaver family. Not only was he the companion of the children, but in winter he pulled the family sled to haul their water supply from the spring below. When the dogs discovered the intruders they raised a ruckus, and Randy his friend Kevin, and Randy's 14 year old son Sam, grabbed their guns and followed the dogs to investigate.

When the government agents were confronted with the barking dog, they did what men who have been taught to kill do. They shot Striker. The boy, barely larger than a 10 year old child, heard the dog's yelp, saw the dog fall dead. and as a 14 year old might, he returned the fire. Then the government agents shot the child in the arm. He turned and ran. the arm flopping, and when he did, the officers, still unidentified as such, shot the child in the back and killed him.

Kevin Harris witnessed the shooting of the dog. Then he saw Sam being shot as the boy turned and ran. To Kevin there was no alternative. He knew if he ran these intruders, whoever they were, would kill him as well. In defense of himself he raised his rifle and shot in the direction of the officer who had shot and killed the boy. Then while the agents were in disarray, Kevin retreated to the Weaver cabin.

In the meantime Randy Weaver had been off in another direction and had only heard the shooting, the dog's yelp and the gunfire that followed. Randy hollered for his son and shot his shotgun into the air to attract the boy.

"Come on home Sam, Come home."

Over and over he called.

Finally he heard the boy call back "I'm comin' Dad". Those were the last words he ever heard from his son.

Later that same day, Randy, Kevin, and Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife went down to where the boy lay and carried his body back to an outbuilding near the cabin. There they removed the child's clothing and bathed his wounds and prepared the body. The next evening Weaver's oldest daughter, Sarah, sixteen, Kevin, and Randy went back to the shed to have a last look at Sam. When they did, government snipers opened fire. Randy was hit in the shoulder. The three turned and ran for the house where Vicki, with her 10 month old baby in her arms stood holding the door open. As the 3 entered the house Vicki was shot and slowly fell to her knees, her head resting on the floor like one kneeling in prayer. Randy ran up and took the baby that she clutched, and then he lifted his wife's head. Half her face was blown away.

Kevin was also hit. Huge areas of muscle in his arm were blown out, and his lung was punctured in several places. Randy and his 16 year old daughter stretched the dead mother on the floor of the cabin and covered he with a blanket where she remained for over 8 days as the siege progressed.

By this time there were officers by the score, troops, armored personnel carriers, helicopters, radios, televisions, robots, and untold armaments surrounding the little house. I will not burden you with the misery and horror the family suffered in this stand-off. I will tell you that finally Bo Gritz, Randy's former commander in the special forces, came to help in the negotiations. Gritz told Randy that if he would surrender, Gritz would guarantee him a fair trial, and before the negotiations were ended, Randy came to the belief that I would represent him. Although Gritz had contacted me before I had spoke to Randy, I had only agreed to talk to Randy. But the accuracy of what was said between Gritz and me and what was hard by Randy somehow got lost in the horror, and Randy's belief that I would represent him if he surrendered was in part, his motivation for finally submitting to arrest.

And so my friend Allan, you can now understand the pain I feel in this case. It is pain that comes from the realization that we have permitted a government to act in our name and in our behalf in a criminal fashion. It is the pain of watching the government as it now attempts to lie about its criminal complicity in this affair and to cover its crimes by charging Randy with crimes he did not commit, including murder. It is the pain of seeing an innocent woman with a child in her arms murdered and innocent children subjected to these atrocities. Indeed, as a human being I feel Randy's irrepressible pain and horror and grief.

I also feel your pain, my friend. Yet I know that in the end, if you were the judge at the trial of Adolph Eichmann, you would have insisted that he not have ordinary council, but the best council. In the same way, if you were the judge in Randy's case, and you had a choice, I have no doubt that despite your own pain you might well have appointed me to defend him. In the end you must know that the Holocaust must never stand for part justice,or average justice but for the most noble of ideals--that even the enemies of the Jews themselves must receive the best justice the system can provide. If it were otherwise the meaning of the Holocaust would be accordingly besmirched.

Alan, I agree with your arguments. They are proper and they are true. I agree that my defense of Randy Weaver may attach a legitimacy and dignity to his politics and religion. But it may, as well, stand for the proposition that there are those who don't condone this kind of criminal action by our government. I view the defense of Randy Weaver's case as an opportunity to address a more vital issue, one that transcends a white separatist movement or notions of the supremacy of one race over another, for the ultimate enemy of any people is not the angry hate groups that fester within, but a government itself that has lost its respect for the individual. The ultimate enemy of democracy is not the drug dealer or the crooked politician or the crazed skinhead. The ultimate enemy is the new king that has become so powerful it can murder its own citizens with impunity. To the same extent that Randy Weaver cannot find justice in this country, we too will be deprived of justice. At last, my defense of Randy Weaver is a defense of every Jew and every Gentile, for every black and every gay who loves freedom and deplores tyranny.

Although I understand that it will be easy for my defense of Randy Weaver to be confused with an endorsement of the politics of the Aryan Nation, my challenge will be to demonstrate that we can still be a nation where the rights of the individual, despite his race, color, religion, remain supreme. If this be not so, then we are all lost. If this is not so, it is because we have forgotten the lessons of our histories--the history of the American Revolution as well as the history of the Holocaust.

And so my friend Alan, if I were to withdraw from the defense of Randy Weaver as you request, I would be required to abandon my belief that this system has any remaining virtue. I would be more at fault than the federal government that has murdered these people, for I have not been trained to murder but to defend. I would be less of a man than my client who had the courage of his convictions. I would lose all respect for myself. I would be unable to any longer be your friend, for friendship must always have its foundation in respect. Therefore as my friend, I ask that you not require this of me. I ask instead for your prayers, your understanding and your continued love.

As ever,

Gerry Spence
Jackson Hole, Wyoming

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/weaverhome.html

[aGameOfThrones]

Is there a Ruby Ridge apologist on this forum? 'Cause if there is... F**k You!

[libertyjam]

Is there a Ruby Ridge apologist on this forum? 'Cause if there is... F**k You!

I've seen no such apologists here?

[Origanalist]

I've seen no such apologists here?

Nor have I.

[fr33]

Is there a Ruby Ridge apologist on this forum? 'Cause if there is... F**k You!You'd probably find some here: http://mittromneycentral.com/community/chat/

[HOLLYWOOD]

Hasn't some member here on RPF post a thread previously on one of the FBI snipers that killed the mother and/or one of the kids received a commendation Medal?


That's what's truly disgusting...

[bunklocoempire]

Thanks AF. Yes, remember Ruby Ridge.

20 years ago being young, stupid, ignorant and immortal at the time, I concerned myself with little of anything of real importance.

I had not heard anything of Ruby Ridge until I had stumbled quite accidentally onto C-SPAN coverage of what I believe was the actual trial? Perhaps it was the settlement phase? I remember what seemed to be a court room, and various easels with photographs and diagrams of the scene. The youtube posted looks pretty close to what I remember, but I don't recall the large number of people being there.

What is a pretty clear memory is Randy Weaver's testimony. I get choked up thinking about it. :(

I watched the whole program in disbelief. I think it was a repeat run on the weekend, I had never seen anything like it.

First and foremost I couldn't believe I hadn't run across hearing anything about it ever even occuring. (I understand these days how and why that happens)

Secondly, at that time I had no idea of why something could possibly escalate into what happened. (I understand these days)

I suggest the younger folks, or anyone who is not familiar with the murder of the Weavers get acquainted with event. Waco as well.

youtube has a variety of "official" vids on the events. I suggest viewing the "official" ones. All of them.

Very simply, this is what your fellow man, those nice looking men and women in suits right there, if allowed, and left unchecked, will do to you with the violent tool of government.

Have a piece of leather handy to bite down on when the elected gas bags have the nerve to even talk about the terrible tarnishing of law enforcement image in the same breath they mention the unfortunate murder of innocents -or similar comments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q-lOFmYKwM&feature=relmfu

An approprate question for remembering Ruby Ridge: What kind of neighbors do we really want?

[Czolgosz]

So sad what We have allowed.


Well back to my latte. Gonna kick the ac down a couple degrees...kinda warm out.

[Weston White]

It would be good to put together a reference list; here is what I have off the top of my head…

American Black Ops Tragedies to be remembered:

Don Scott (CA-1992)
Ruby Ridge (ID-1992)
Waco (TX-1993)
WTC 93’ Bombing (NY-1993)
Oklahoma City Bombing (OK-1995)
9/11 (DC,NY,PA-2001)

And something else a bit peculiar the WTC Bombing took place on 2/26/93 and two days later the Waco “siege” began on 2/28/93.

Also 9/11 might possibly be a reference to the Civil War (consequently, 9/11 is now being used to spark yet another civil war):

“On September 10, 1861 [FEMA also arrived a day early on 2001], Col. James A. Mulligan [to take a free shot in golf] arrived to take command with his 23rd Illinois Volunteer Infantry Regiment. On September 11, the 13th [oh, the number thirteen] Missouri Infantry (USA), Van Horn's Battalion of the United States Reserve Corps, and the 27th Missouri Mounted Infantry arrived, after having evacuated Warrensburg in the face of Price's relentless advance.[2] Mulligan now commanded 3,500 [and around 3,000 faced a perilous battle again in 2001] men, and quickly proceeded to construct extensive fortifications around the town's Masonic College [M-A-S-O-N-I-C, geewhiz], cutting down trees to make lines of fire and erecting earthworks around the dormitory and classroom buildings [that sort of resembles the destruction that took place all around the WTC].” – Wikipedia

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver’s arrest for a firearms offense

Which was fishy and flimsy.





http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/spenceg.jpg
Defense lawyer Gerry Spence


One of my personal heros for many years. That guy almost made me a lawyer, and I think his books are certainly worth reading.

[tod evans]

I haven't forgotten.

[mrsat_98]

Is there a Ruby Ridge apologist on this forum? 'Cause if there is... F**k You!

I am a Ruby Ridge apologist. I am so sorry the government that I am allegedly a supporter ( roll eyes ) 0f has hired and trained a bunch of retard psychopaths that should be hung. There are so many retards in Government that most need to be hung. I sincerely apologize that I can't afford enough rope.

Is this good enough ?

[asurfaholic]

Thanks for posting this. I'm not enjoying learning everything I've been learning lately. Makes me sad. I need a specific plan of action so in can make some sort of difference. I'm not a politician type so running for office is not going to happen. I live in an area that will be very hard to be self sufficient, I have a small garden but it's nothing to depend on. Nobody to network with when SHTF so I'll be on my own. Most people here are not receptive to liberty message so ive had hardly any success reaching people. Even my wife is on the fence.

I'm getting all this knowledge but nothing to do with it. It's downright depressing.

[pcosmar]

Even my wife is on the fence.



It won't be too much longer and folks will have that fence kicked out from under them.
Be prepared to help them back up.

[Dissent]

For those that don't know Jess Walters wrote a book about Ruby Ridge,Randy and Sarah Weaver also wrote a book about it,Sarah Weaver just came out with a new book as well about her life to forgiveness and there has been a lifetime movie done about it. I cry every time I watch it or the Waco movie they did for Lifetime.

[Pericles]

The point at which it became impossible to ignore that the US Department of Justice considers itself to be the law, and can perform any act at the whim of its tyrants.

[MelissaCato]

I researched that Ruby Ridge and that would have never happened if the police wouldn't have shot the boys dog while the boy was picking seeds from the garden, when the police shot the boys dog for no reason other than barking - the boy picked up his gun, ran to his dog, helped his dog fall to the ground, watched it take it's last breath - only then did the boy stand up and shoot back.

Those police should be in GITMO for killing that little boy at least.

JMO.

[pcosmar]

I researched that Ruby Ridge and that would have never happened if the police wouldn't have shot the boys dog while the boy was picking seeds from the garden,

JMO.

It would not have happened if the police did not coerce the man into sawing off barrels in the first place.
and beyond that,, if there were no unconstitutional laws concerning the length of a barrel.

This started with police breaking laws,,and concerned laws that should not exist in the first place.

The man had moved up into the hills to get away and just be left alone. And that was not allowed.

[mad cow]

For those that don't know Jess Walters wrote a book about Ruby Ridge,Randy and Sarah Weaver also wrote a book about it,Sarah Weaver just came out with a new book as well about her life to forgiveness and there has been a lifetime movie done about it. I cry every time I watch it or the Waco movie they did for Lifetime.

Alan W. Bock wrote Ambush At Ruby Ridge,copyright 1995,which I own.I bought it in hardcover at a gun show when it first came out.

I don't think it is still in print,but you can get the Kindle edition for $2.99.Good book.

[thehungarian]

Whoa. I had never heard about this.

[Anti Federalist]

Join us in NH where your voice can make a difference.



Thanks for posting this. I'm not enjoying learning everything I've been learning lately. Makes me sad. I need a specific plan of action so in can make some sort of difference. I'm not a politician type so running for office is not going to happen. I live in an area that will be very hard to be self sufficient, I have a small garden but it's nothing to depend on. Nobody to network with when SHTF so I'll be on my own. Most people here are not receptive to liberty message so ive had hardly any success reaching people. Even my wife is on the fence.

I'm getting all this knowledge but nothing to do with it. It's downright depressing.

[pcosmar]

Whoa. I had never heard about this.

why is that?

you may ask yourself

[Lucille]

Ruby Ridge Is History, But the Mindset That Led to Ruby Ridge Is Thriving
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/22/ruby-ridge-is-history-but-the-mindset-th


...The tale of the Weavers shows how the government's paranoia about marginal groups can drive it to violence, too. The feds looked at a family with fringy views and perceived a threat, and as a result a woman, a boy, a dog, and one of the bureau's own agents were killed. It wouldn't be the last time something like that happened. A year later in Waco, the Branch Davidians' paranoia would be no match for the paranoia of the Davidians' enemies.

I wish I could report that the authorities' fear has faded in the decades since Ruby Ridge and Waco. Instead it has been institutionalized in the fusion centers that litter the country, where everybody from Ron Paul fans to anti-fracking activists have been tarred as potential terrorists. Meanwhile, the country's police forces have been steadily more militarized. What a sad and terrifying combination.

[Lucille]

20 Years After Ruby Ridge, Newspapers and Hatewatch Groups Can't Quite Bring Themselves to Fully Describe the Government Screw-Up
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/22/20-years-since-ruby-ridge-government


...After reading various optimistic news reports, it's kind of a bummer that the usual anti-anti-government suspects quoted in these articles about Ruby Ridge are so unwilling to admit that level of negligence (at least) involved in the FBI's dealing with one little family. Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), which is currently extremely ironically defending its self against charges that its description of the Family Research Council as a hate group is what inspired alleged shooter Floyd Lee Corkins II to wound a security guard there last week, is quoted in several stories on the anniversary. In one, Potok declares that "Ruby Ridge was the opening shot of a new era of anti-government hatred not seen since the Civil War" which is a bit offensive, to spin a tragedy where people died into a mere sign-post for the rise of '90s boogie-men militia groups. But that is what happened to both Ruby Ridge and Waco, which is certainly another thing on which to (greatly) blame Timothy McVeigh. Sara Weaver says she was, and continues to be, horrified that McVeigh used her family's tragedy, and that of the Branch Davidians, to justify killing 165 people. That's bad enough, but in so many mentions of the tragedy, it feels like McVeigh's actions completely drowned out the injustices that inspired them. Now, to be angry about Waco and Ruby Ridge is to be painted with the SPLC and the Anti-Defamation League and other hatewatch groups' broad brushes.

This Spokesman-Review editorial notes that law enforcement overreaction helped cause the tragedy at Ruby Ridge, and Waco, leading of course to Oklahoma City. Yet, is it intellectually honest to describe the matriarch of the family as dying in "a second burst of gunfire" when, if not certain about all the details, we're quite certain that FBI sniper Horiuchi shot Vicky Weaver in the head while she held her youngest child? Why detail the family and Northern Idaho's unpleasant ties with racist groups, but wave over the details of who died and exactly how? This vagueness is not uncommon when talking about both Waco and Ruby Ridge, but it's frustrating every time, especially when contrasted with the societal obsession towards remembering soldiers and cops who died in the line of duty.

Still, the most jaw-droopingly clunky summary of The Meaning Of All This comes from Daryl Johnson, author of a forthcoming book about right wing threats, with a forward by the SPLC's Potok. Johnson is currently in private terrorism consulting, but he used to do a similar job for the FBI and the ATF. And either their rhetoric really rubbed off on him, or the author of this Idaho Spokesman-Review piece forgot that the key to writing is not to use the same word over and over again. The word chosen by both, unsurprisingly, was "extremist." And Reason readers will be pleased to know that not only is being peeved about Ruby Ridge the sign of such radicalism— so is worrying over:


what some describe as a militarization of law enforcement at all levels, including federal agencies.

“For American extremists, the siege at Ruby Ridge symbolizes the ‘militarized police state,’” said [Johnson].

Johnson is the author of a soon-to-be released book, “Right Wing Resurgence,” that addresses how, in his opinion, domestic extremist threats aren’t being taken seriously enough at the highest levels in the U.S. government. He owns a private consulting firm, DT Analytics, that monitors domestic extremist activity and provides specialized training to law enforcement.

The U.S. government, through its Department of Homeland Security in particular, Johnson said, “has unintentionally fostered, and even solidified, Orwellian conspiracies concerning an overzealous, oppressive federal government and its perceived willingness to kill to ensure citizen compliance.”

“In the minds of modern-day extremists, (Homeland Security) has enhanced the lethal capability of many underfunded, small-town police forces through its grant programs,” Johnson said.

Using federal grants, state and local law enforcement agencies have been able to buy expensive equipment and training that are “commonly associated with the military,” he said.

“Extremists view such a security buildup as a continuation of the Ruby Ridge legacy,” Johnson said.

That legacy is a continuing drumbeat for extremists and white supremacists who recruit with the message of “big government versus the little guy” and “the government set me up,” Johnson said.

These extremist ideas continue as messages and even recruiting themes among various radical groups in the United States, he said.

By the way, for my money, the best summation of Ruby Ridge is still Jess Walter's Ruby Ridge: The Truth and Tragedy of the Randy Weaver Family (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006000794X/reasonmagazineA/). No punches are pulled when it comes to the family's racist inclinations, but more importantly, the government's criminal negligence and cover-up are described by Walter in excellent, damning detail.

[thehungarian]

why is that?

you may ask yourself

I went to private Lutheran schools from K-12, but we generally had the same curriculum and text books as the public schoolers, just with a dash of Jesus thrown in. You just flat out don't learn this sort of shit in school, private or public; you are forced to seek it out. And why would you seek out information about citizen rebels who get into firefights with our benevolent Feds, planning something are we?

I mean, I don't even remember hearing/learning about Waco when I was in school. Outside of mathematics and some bland "social studies" just about everything I've learned has been outside of and unrelated to schooling.

[Anti Federalist]

Important to note, at no time did this hack say that the "extremists" were incorrect.

In fact, he back handedly acknowledged that the "extremists" are correct.


“For American extremists, the siege at Ruby Ridge symbolizes the ‘militarized police state,’” said [Johnson].

Johnson is the author of a soon-to-be released book, “Right Wing Resurgence,” that addresses how, in his opinion, domestic extremist threats aren’t being taken seriously enough at the highest levels in the U.S. government. He owns a private consulting firm, DT Analytics, that monitors domestic extremist activity and provides specialized training to law enforcement.

The U.S. government, through its Department of Homeland Security in particular, Johnson said, “has unintentionally fostered, and even solidified, Orwellian conspiracies concerning an overzealous, oppressive federal government and its perceived willingness to kill to ensure citizen compliance.”

“In the minds of modern-day extremists, (Homeland Security) has enhanced the lethal capability of many underfunded, small-town police forces through its grant programs,” Johnson said.

Using federal grants, state and local law enforcement agencies have been able to buy expensive equipment and training that are “commonly associated with the military,” he said.

“Extremists view such a security buildup as a continuation of the Ruby Ridge legacy,” Johnson said.

That legacy is a continuing drumbeat for extremists and white supremacists who recruit with the message of “big government versus the little guy” and “the government set me up,” Johnson said.

These extremist ideas continue as messages and even recruiting themes among various radical groups in the United States, he said.

[pcosmar]

No punches are pulled when it comes to the family's racist inclinations,

You know,, I have heard this pushed a lot.
I am not and never have been a racist at all,,but I have known a few. I heard this mans story years ago,,and heard him speak a few times.

But from my understanding,, and if you wish to correct it I will ask proof,, Randy Weaver was a separatist.
Not a Nazi, Not a White Supremacist. He was a separatist. He believed that the races should be separate.
He was opposed to Forced Integration. And that is why he moved into the Hills of Idaho. So his children and family would not be forced to integrate.
He had some contact with the Nazis in the area, but did not care for them or associate other than some trade.

To paint him with the same brush is intellectually dishonest.

[pcosmar]

I mean, I don't even remember hearing/learning about Waco when I was in school. Outside of mathematics and some bland "social studies" just about everything I've learned has been outside of and unrelated to schooling.

Sad,, they don't teach history.
No current events like the OKC bombing? (McVeigh's alleged reason)

I am assuming you are young,, but these are all events that have been in the news in my lifetime.

[Travlyr]

Whoa. I had never heard about this.
I wonder if the true story was ever told in newsprint, on TV, or any other "reliable news" sources?

[pcosmar]

I wonder if the true story was ever told in newsprint, on TV, or any other "reliable news" sources?

Not that I am aware of,, though some documentary may have been shown on obscure channels late at night.

[shane77m]

Sad,, they don't teach history.
No current events like the OKC bombing? (McVeigh's alleged reason)

I am assuming you are young,, but these are all events that have been in the news in my lifetime.

I was a teenager when Waco, OKC, Ruby Ridge happened. The only thing I thought about it then was it was just some nuts that got what they deserved. I don't agree with what McVeigh done. Innocents lost their lives in that attack.

I am paying more attention to the things that are happening now. I gotta say that most of it I wish I didn't know about. It tends to get a little depressing.

[pcosmar]

I don't agree with what McVeigh done. Innocents lost their lives in that attack.


I don't agree with it either. And if you believe that is what OKC was about,, you might want to dig a bit deeper.

but not here,, and not to derail this thread.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't agree with what McVeigh done. Innocents lost their lives in that attack.

You do know that men, women and children, trying to escape the burning church building by running out the back door (hidden from media cameras) were cut down by federal agents with automatic weapons, in a crossfire set up behind the cover of Army tanks?

[donnay]

You do know that men, women and children, trying to escape the burning church building by running out the back door (hidden from media cameras) were cut down by federal agents with automatic weapons, in a crossfire set up behind the cover of Army tanks?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCzE_11cvnw

A truly sobering testament to the tyrannical force of the US government.This documentary tells the story of the Waco siege.This documentary, from the ATF's own footage, bears witness to the murder by the US government of citizens who choose to exercise their constitutional rights.
Truly a must see!Are we truly free when we fear our government?

[shane77m]

I don't agree with it either. And if you believe that is what OKC was about,, you might want to dig a bit deeper.

but not here,, and not to derail this thread.


You do know that men, women and children, trying to escape the burning church building by running out the back door (hidden from media cameras) were cut down by federal agents with automatic weapons, in a crossfire set up behind the cover of Army tanks?

I will have to look into OKC some more. I am vaguely familiar with a little of McVeigh's reasoning.

I do know what happened at Waco. I don't approve of what our government done with that either. At the time that it happened I just thought they were a bunch of crazies and the government knew best. I look at it now as a disgusting act. It makes me wonder what is going through the agents minds that were involved. You would have to be sub human to cut down a bunch of women and children. I wonder if they justify their actions by "just following orders".

I didn't know that much about Ruby Ridge until today. Seems like the FBI likes to set people up then take them down. Our government has done some sick things.

[puppetmaster]

this boils my blood again........

And people ask me why I dont like to pay taxes.....this is one of a vast sea of non christian operations that perpetuate evil so our tax system is against my religion.

[puppetmaster]

You know,, I have heard this pushed a lot.
I am not and never have been a racist at all,,but I have known a few. I heard this mans story years ago,,and heard him speak a few times.

But from my understanding,, and if you wish to correct it I will ask proof,, Randy Weaver was a separatist.
Not a Nazi, Not a White Supremacist. He was a separatist. He believed that the races should be separate.
He was opposed to Forced Integration. And that is why he moved into the Hills of Idaho. So his children and family would not be forced to integrate.
He had some contact with the Nazis in the area, but did not care for them or associate other than some trade.

To paint him with the same brush is intellectually dishonest.

+1

[Anti Federalist]

I will have to look into OKC some more. I am vaguely familiar with a little of McVeigh's reasoning.

I do know what happened at Waco. I don't approve of what our government done with that either. At the time that it happened I just thought they were a bunch of crazies and the government knew best. I look at it now as a disgusting act. It makes me wonder what is going through the agents minds that were involved. You would have to be sub human to cut down a bunch of women and children. I wonder if they justify their actions by "just following orders".

I didn't know that much about Ruby Ridge until today. Seems like the FBI likes to set people up then take them down. Our government has done some sick things.

Mrs. AF just posted the relevant section of "Waco - Rules of Engagement" to watch.

I highly recommend watching the whole documentary.

It is an eye opener, covering what, like I said before, was one of the two opening salvos in the government's "War on Us" that continues to this day.

Also important to take away from the whole Waco murder debacle, is that the survivors were all acquitted of killing the federal agents that opened fire on them first.

Not because there was any question that they did so, but the jury found that they used reasonable force against unlawful police force directed at them.

[Dissent]

Alan W. Bock wrote Ambush At Ruby Ridge,copyright 1995,which I own.I bought it in hardcover at a gun show when it first came out.

I don't think it is still in print,but you can get the Kindle edition for $2.99.Good book.

I must be thinking of someone else then...http://www.amazon.com/Ruby-Ridge-Tragedy-Weaver-Family/dp/006000794X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345658549&sr=8-1&keywords=ruby+ridge

Nope I was right lol

[Lucille]

The Meaning of Timothy McVeigh (http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2001/09/mcveigh200109)
by Gore Vidal


For Timothy McVeigh, [Waco and Ruby Ridge] became the symbol of [federal] oppression and murder. Since he was now suffering from an exaggerated sense of justice, not a common American trait, he went to war pretty much on his own and ended up slaughtering more innocents than the Feds had at Waco. Did he know what he was doing when he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City because it contained the hated [Feds]? McVeigh remained silent throughout his trial. Finally, as he was about to be sentenced, the court asked him if he would like to speak. He did. He rose and said, “I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me. He wrote, ‘Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.’” Then McVeigh was sentenced to death by the government.

[mad cow]

I must be thinking of someone else then...http://www.amazon.com/Ruby-Ridge-Tragedy-Weaver-Family/dp/006000794X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345658549&sr=8-1&keywords=ruby+ridge

Nope I was right lol

I was just pointing out another good book on the subject,not saying you were wrong.
I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

[pcosmar]

The Meaning of Timothy McVeigh (http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2001/09/mcveigh200109)
by Gore Vidal

Tim McVeigh did not plan and execute the plan. He was no mastermind.
He did not plant the explosives inside the federal Building,, though he may have driven the truck that was used outside.

None of these stories can be looked at as a "stand Alone" story in a vacuum. They are all interconnected, and they overlap.

Tim McVeigh was a "good soldier",,following orders right up to the end. He was not alone,, and the investigation died with him.

[CaptainAmerica]

How could I forget how the FBI,BATF,U.S. Marshalls and various others sniped Randy Weaver(Sara Weaver 16 yr.sold at the time) wife/mother while she held a baby in her hands. Also the brother who was riddled with bullets up his back as he ran away from federal gunmen.

Amerika in the 1990s was a very dark place,then came 9/11. Most people under the age of 20 don't even know about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGh9dWDbUL0

to sum up Ruby Ridge :

Randy Weaver and peaceful family lived on Ruby Ridge peacefully . A federal agent shows up at Randys house and befriends him. That federal agent then requested if Randy could saw off his shotgun for him(take into consideration gun laws were not yet that bad because Bill Clinton had not passed the brady bill ). The federal agents then returned to assault the Weaver family because Randy Weaver was suddenly treated as a "terrorist" .The Weavers were unarmed ,the mother was shot in the head while holding her baby daughter, and her son was shot down as well.

Strange fact: timothy mcveigh was present with protestors/onlookers at the bottom of the mountain where the roads were blocked by Armored Patrol Cars ,BATF,U.S. Marshalls, FBI etc..

[mac_hine]

I will have to look into OKC some more. I am vaguely familiar with a little of McVeigh's reasoning.

I do know what happened at Waco. I don't approve of what our government done with that either. At the time that it happened I just thought they were a bunch of crazies and the government knew best. I look at it now as a disgusting act. It makes me wonder what is going through the agents minds that were involved. You would have to be sub human to cut down a bunch of women and children. I wonder if they justify their actions by "just following orders".

I didn't know that much about Ruby Ridge until today. Seems like the FBI likes to set people up then take them down. Our government has done some sick things.

I just posted this thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?386893-History...-So-it-Doesn-t-Repeat-quot-A-Noble-Lie-OKC-1995-quot-Interview-with-the-Filmmakers&p=4594119#post4594119

[Lucille]

Ruby Ridge: When Officials Realized That We Scare Them
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/22/ruby-ridge-when-many-officials-realized


Twenty years since the Ruby Ridge siege, the event is usually remembered as a major motivator to the militia movement and the anti-government fervor of the '90s. It was cited, together with the following year's bloody fiasco in Waco, Texas, as an outrage to be avenged, by Timothy McVeigh. And, sure enough, the Associated Press story on the legacy of Ruby Ridge specifies that the incident "helped spark an anti-government patriot movement that grew to include the Oklahoma City bombing." But if the siege and killings in Idaho helped make many Americans fear the government, a strong case can be made that it also pushed the federal government to fear many of the people over whom it rules...

[pcosmar]

Ruby Ridge: When Officials Realized That We Scare Them
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/22/ruby-ridge-when-many-officials-realized


Twenty years since the Ruby Ridge siege, the event is usually remembered as a major motivator to the militia movement and the anti-government fervor of the '90s.

Bullshit,, The movements were growing through the 80s (late 70s),, this was one of the more visible crackdowns. But there were many others,,mostly unknown and unpublicized.

They tried to paint the entire Patriot Movement as Racist and Violent,, when in fact it was many diverse groups that all intersected around Freedom and being left alone by the Government.

[mport1]

The government murders people everyday. It's no big deal. Move along folks.

[dillo]

I think the best part about the whole tragedy is that the original weapons charge was bogus, so basically the guy got sentenced for failing to show up to court for a bogus charge

[daviddee]

...

[dannno]

Didn't they nearly shoot a 10 year old's arm off, then when he dropped his gun and ran away they sprayed him up the back with bullets?

[dannno]

Didn't they shoot the mother or someone inside the house right in the head while they were holding the baby?

[mad cow]

Yeah,I had Waco-Rules Of Engagement plus the follow up one by the same people on VHS.
I might still have them somewhere,but I no longer have a VHS player.

[Danke]

Didn't they shoot the mother or someone inside the house right in the head while they were holding the baby?

"As the 16-year-old closed in, her mother, Vicki, opened the cabin door and stood behind it, holding Sara Weaver's 10-month-old sister in her arms. Just then, a sniper's bullet struck her mother in the head, killing her."

[Travlyr]

On the porch. I think she was going inside.

Yes, she was going to go inside and cook dinner for her family if they hadn't killed her & her 14 year old son first.

[Danke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IdY8GTl76-Q

[Anti Federalist]

"As the 16-year-old closed in, her mother, Vicki, opened the cabin door and stood behind it, holding Sara Weaver's 10-month-old sister in her arms. Just then, a sniper's bullet struck her mother in the head, killing her."


Yes, she was going to go inside and cook dinner for her family if they hadn't killed her & her 14 year old son first.

War on Us.

[mad cow]

There were seven people and a dog there,they shot four people,killing two and killed the dog.
They shot Mrs.Weaver in the head,killing her,while she held her ten month old baby in her arms.

[Travlyr]

War on Us.

War On Us.

Hollow Point Bullets coming your way soon: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?386661-Retired-Major-General-Asks-Why-Domestic-Govt-Agencies-Need-So-Much-Ammunition&p=4589835&viewfull=1#post4589835

[Anti Federalist]

War On Us.

Hollow Point Bullets coming your way soon: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?386661-Retired-Major-General-Asks-Why-Domestic-Govt-Agencies-Need-So-Much-Ammunition&p=4589835&viewfull=1#post4589835

At this point I'm tempted to say "bring it".

Right now, we're two kids on the playground pushing each other around.

It won't come to a fight, because one side is scared and the other is glad for it.

So here we sit, kicking dirt and talking trash.

But this constant low level nagging and frog boiling is getting tiresome.

[pcosmar]

At this point I'm tempted to say "bring it".

Right now, we're two kids on the playground pushing each other around.

It won't come to a fight, because one side is scared and the other is glad for it.

So here we sit, kicking dirt and talking trash.

But this constant low level nagging and frog boiling is getting tiresome.

I don't want it,, I really don't. I have a pretty good Idea just how messed up it will become,,and a lot of good people will die along with a bunch of scumbags.
I don't want to see it at all,, nor to I want to live in a totalitarian Police State as a slave.
So there we are.
I won't start it,, but am pretty sure it's coming.
I do at least know what side I'm on.

[Danke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BMkVRPSWah4#!

[TheTexan]

I don't want it,, I really don't. I have a pretty good Idea just how messed up it will become,,and a lot of good people will die along with a bunch of scumbags.
I don't want to see it at all,, nor to I want to live in a totalitarian Police State as a slave.
So there we are.
I won't start it,, but am pretty sure it's coming.
I do at least know what side I'm on.

It's inevitable, and their choices beginning with Lincoln's unbreakable union, have all been leading to that point

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

At this point I'm tempted to say "bring it".

Right now, we're two kids on the playground pushing each other around.


lol. I'd say it's more like a gangfight staredown. Gang number 1 has a group of gangleaders who are a bit unsure of their gang loyalty. Gang number 2 has no leader, no objectives, and just wants to be left alone. So #2 isn't sure who will show up when or where.

Gang #1 bears very little risk. They are the richest of the rich. It will be their low paid security guards and useful idiots that die.

Gang #2 are people trying to live their lives, have responsibilities to children and family, etc.

Gang #1 is assembled and prepared.

Gang #2 is disjointed, uncommitted, unsure.

Some people belong to both gangs, but Gang #1 does not have any idea how many. Gang #2 overestimates how many belong to both.

Gang #1 derives "legitimacy" from lies. Gang #2 derives "legitimacy" from knowledge most people either don't understand, or don't care to.

Who wins? How? On what timeline?

[Anti Federalist]

I don't want it, I really don't.

Nope neither do I.

But then again, I don't want root canals or income tax returns. Yet, they are but a few of the uncomfortable and unpleasant tasks that must be done.

I'm a firm follower of "give me the bad news first" so I can deal with it and get it out of the way.


I won't start it,, but am pretty sure it's coming.
I do at least know what side I'm on.

Nor will I.

I think so too.

So will I.

[pacelli]

I just want to say, next time those bastards try this bullshit anywhere in the world, they will get a mouthful of lead. The spirit of the people cannot be broken~!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDulMYVj1U


That is all.

[dannno]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BMkVRPSWah4#!

Is Alex Jones really drinking a HFCS ladened Squirt at 46:35?

[Danke]

Is Alex Jones really drinking a HFCS ladened Squirt at 46:35?

That's before he discovered Youngevity!

[Lucille]

Lessons from Ruby Ridge
http://blog.independent.org/2012/08/22/lessons-from-ruby-ridge/


Some look at this incident as a sign of the modern dangers of anti-government paranoia, but this is an obscene interpretation of the facts. If anything, this is an example of the government’s paranoia run amok.

Consider:
[...]
4. This atrocity occurred under George H.W. Bush. This is often forgotten by conservatives who see Ruby Ridge and Waco as two black marks against Clintonian rule. But Clinton would not even be elected for more than two months after the killings. On the other hand, left-liberals often forget that this was not some case of the reasonable liberal Democrat’s government defending society against rightwing crazies. If you think there’s anything wrong with the police state built by President Bush after 9/11, you should also keep in mind the federal horrors unleashed by his father.

What this last point really shows, however, is the bipartisan nature of out-of-control federal law enforcement. Ruby Ridge occurred under Bush I but the Clinton government conducted the whitewash. The planning for the Waco raid began under Bush I but was undertaken by Clinton and ultimately whitewashed by a Republican Congress. Ruby Ridge and all that has followed it—Waco, Clinton’s expansion of the drug war, Bush II’s abuses of human rights in the war on terror, Obama’s solidification and expansion of these authoritarian powers crafted by his predecessors—demonstrate that the issue is not the left vs. right, but the militarized central state vs. individual life and liberty.

[Anti Federalist]

That deserves bigger and bolder and one minor correction:



What this last point really shows, however, is the bipartisan nature of out-of-control federal law enforcement. Ruby Ridge occurred under Bush I but the Clinton government conducted the whitewash. The planning for the Waco raid began under Bush I but was undertaken by Clinton and ultimately whitewashed by a Republican Congress. Ruby Ridge and all that has followed it—Waco, Clinton’s expansion of the drug war, Bush II’s abuses of human rights in the war on terror, Obama’s solidification and expansion of these authoritarian powers crafted by his predecessors—demonstrate that the issue is not the left vs. right, but the militarized central state vs. individual life and liberty.

[aGameOfThrones]

That deserves bigger and bolder and one minor correction:



What this last point really shows, however, is the bipartisan nature of out-of-control federal law enforcement. Ruby Ridge occurred under Bush I but the Clinton government conducted the whitewash. The planning for the Waco raid began under Bush I but was undertaken by Clinton and ultimately whitewashed by a Republican Congress. Ruby Ridge and all that has followed it—Waco, Clinton’s expansion of the drug war, Bush II’s abuses of human rights in the war on terror, Obama’s solidification and expansion of these authoritarian powers crafted by his predecessors—demonstrate that the issue is not the left vs. right, but the militarized central state vs. individual life and liberty.

Hey, are you suffering from SPS(Sluggishly progressing schizophrenia)?

[Anti Federalist]

Hey, are you suffering from SPS(Sluggishly progressing schizophrenia)?

Huh???

[aGameOfThrones]

Huh???


It was defined as a special form of the illness which supposedly affected only the person's social behavior, with no influence on other traits: "most frequently, ideas about a 'struggle for truth and justice' are formed by personalities with a paranoid structure", according to Moscow Serbsky Institute professors.[1] The diagnostic criteria were vague enough to be applied to nearly anyone, as desired. The dissidents were forcibly hospitalized and subjected to treatments which included antipsychotic drugs and electroconvulsive therapy.

I think you are.

[Anti Federalist]

I think you are.

Thoughtcrime!!

Thank you for pointing that out comrade.

I'm off to report myself.

[aGameOfThrones]

Thoughtcrime!!

Thank you for pointing that out comrade.

I'm off to report myself.

You are not qualified to report yourself.

[Anti Federalist]

You are not qualified to report yourself.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/mind-blown.jpg

I'll...I'll just sit in the corner quietly and await the SWAT team then...

[Zippyjuan]

For those that don't know Jess Walters wrote a book about Ruby Ridge,Randy and Sarah Weaver also wrote a book about it,Sarah Weaver just came out with a new book as well about her life to forgiveness and there has been a lifetime movie done about it. I cry every time I watch it or the Waco movie they did for Lifetime.

http://news.yahoo.com/20-years-ruby-ridge-theres-forgiveness-200635491.html




20 years after Ruby Ridge, there's forgiveness

KALISPELL, Mont. (AP) — When Sara Weaver saw her father Randy struck in the shoulder by a government sniper's bullet in the Idaho wilderness in August 1992, she began to sprint back to the family's cabin on a mountaintop called Ruby Ridge.

As the 16-year-old closed in, her mother, Vicki, opened the cabin door and stood behind it, holding Sara Weaver's 10-month-old sister in her arms. Just then, a sniper's bullet struck her mother in the head, killing her.

For the next nine days, the surviving Weavers holed up in the cabin while hundreds of federal agents laid siege in a standoff that helped spark an anti-government patriot movement that grew to include the Oklahoma City bombing.

Today, 20 years later, Sara Weaver has left the anger behind, finding religion — and forgiveness.

"I went 10 years without understanding how to heal" until becoming a born-again Christian, she said. "All bitterness and anger had to go," she said. "I forgave those that pulled the trigger."

These days, the Weavers live near Kalispell, Mont., a city in the northwestern part of the state that is the gateway to Glacier National Park and more than 100 miles east of Ruby Ridge.

Patriarch Randy Weaver, 63, is a doting grandfather, his daughter said. Her two sisters, including the one who was in Vicki Weaver's arms, are working.

For a time, it seemed doubtful that any family members would survive the siege.

Randy Weaver moved his family to northern Idaho in the 1980s to escape what he saw as a corrupt world. Over time, federal agents began investigating the Army veteran for possible ties to white supremacist and anti-government groups. Weaver was eventually suspected of selling a government informant two illegal sawed-off shotguns.

To avoid arrest, Weaver holed up on his land.

On Aug. 21, 1992, a team of U.S. marshals scouting the forest to find suitable places to ambush and arrest Weaver came across his friend, Kevin Harris, and Weaver's 14-year-old son Samuel in the woods. A gunfight broke out. Samuel Weaver and Deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan were killed.

The next day, an FBI sniper shot and wounded Randy Weaver. As Weaver, Harris and Sara ran back toward the house, the sniper fired a second bullet, which passed through Vicki Weaver's head and wounded Harris in the chest.

During the siege, Sara Weaver crawled around her mother's blanket-covered body to get food and water for the survivors, including the infant, until the family surrendered on Aug. 31, 1992.

Harris and Randy Weaver were arrested, and Weaver's daughters went to live with their mother's family in Iowa. Randy Weaver was acquitted of the most serious charges and Harris was acquitted of all charges.



Sara Weaver said she is devastated each time someone commits a violent act in the name of Ruby Ridge. "It killed me inside," she said of the Oklahoma City bombing. "I knew what it was like to lose a family member in violence. I wouldn't wish that on anyone."

In the years after Ruby Ridge, Sara Weaver, now 36, struggled with depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, as well as what she called a "toxic bondage" of bitterness and anger at the government.

"After losing mom and Sam, I almost felt guilty even thinking about being happy after they were gone," she said. "But that's a lie. Your family members don't want you to grieve them. They want you to move on."

After graduating from high school in Iowa, Sara Weaver moved to the Kalispell area in 1996. Her sisters and father followed shortly after. In 2003, a meeting with a childhood friend from Ruby Ridge helped her turn things around.

The friend mentioned her positive relationship with Jesus Christ, and something clicked for Sara Weaver. "I was shocked at that," she said. "I had a fear-based relationship with God."

"I decided I was broken and needed to be fixed," she said.

Weaver began reading the Bible, where she learned that "Jesus commands us to forgive," and embarked on a journey that, by 2011, found her speaking to religious groups across the nation. Her journey is described in her recently released book, "From Ruby Ridge to Freedom."

Weaver has not spoken to any of the agents involved in the siege, and doesn't plan to unless they want to meet her.

More at link.

[Anti Federalist]

Ruby Ridge and the Age of State Terrorism

by William Norman Grigg

http://lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w276.html

Sara Weaver has forgiven the people responsible for murdering her mother Vicki and younger brother Samuel twenty years ago. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper who shot Vicki in the head while she was holding a ten-month-old infant, is still being sheltered by the Regime that employed him. If he were any part of a man, Horiuchi would make a pilgrimage to Sara’s home in Montana to express remorse for the crimes he committed against her family.

Shortly before he murdered Vicki on August 22, 1992, Horiuchi attempted to murder her husband, Randy Weaver – a man who had done nothing to harm any living soul. Acting under "rules of engagement" that were tantamount to a murder warrant, Horiuchi shot Randy in the back, attempting to kill him instantly by severing his spinal cord.

Owing to a last-second motion by Randy, the bullet hit his shoulder and exited his armpit. Randy and a visiting family friend named Kevin Harris fled back to their cabin. Vicki Weaver flung open the door and was shot in the head by Horiuchi. The same round used to murder Vicki ended up wounding Harris.

At the time Horiuchi attempted to murder him, Randy was visiting the forlorn outbuilding that sheltered the lifeless body of his only son, 14-year-old Samuel, who had been murdered the previous day by U.S. marshals preparing to ambush the Weaver family. Three of the six camouflaged marshals threw rocks to distract the Weaver family’s dogs. When Samuel and Harris went to investigate, a marshal panicked and shot one of the dogs.

After Samuel fired in the direction of the gunshots, Randy told him to return to the cabin.

"I’m coming, Dad," shouted Samuel.

At that point, one of the marshals, in keeping with the standards of valor expected of those who serve the federal Leviathan, shot the 14-year-old in the back.

In what a jury later found to be a lawful use of defensive force, Harris returned fire. Deputy Marshal William Degan was killed in the gunfight. The Feds claimed that he was killed in the first shot of the skirmish. This was a lie, of course: He had fired at least seven rounds before stopping one, and it’s likely that he was killed by "friendly fire."

For nine days, Sara had to care for her baby sister, Elishiba, as well as her ten-year-old sister Rachel while the shattered body of her mother decomposed in the family’s cabin. Their home – or "compound," as it was characterized by the criminals who besieged it, and the media functionaries who retailed their self-serving lies -- was surrounded by a small army of federal, state, and local law enforcement personnel.

Sara and the other survivors also had to endure the mocking sadism of the FBI agents who had murdered Vicki and Samuel. One morning they were awoken by a taunting message broadcast over a loudspeaker: "Good morning, Mrs. Weaver. We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have?"

In what could be seen as a foreshadowing of the holocaust at Waco’s Branch Davidian refuge roughly eight months later, the Feds were apparently prepared to fire-bomb the Weaver home, thereby destroying evidence of their crimes. A news crew from KREM-TV in Spokane saw several large canisters of gasoline being loaded onto an FBI helicopter, which took off and circled the cabin – only to veer off suddenly after being videotaped by observers on the ground.

Much to the disappointment of the Feds, the standoff ended without additional bloodshed. Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris were acquitted of murder charges arising from the death of William Degan. Randy was found guilty of failing to appear in court to answer a contrived firearms charge engineered by an ATF provocateur who sought to blackmail the ex-Green Beret into becoming an informant.

Although the Weaver family eventually received a large civil settlement courtesy of the federal government’s tax victims, neither Horiuchi nor his supervisors – Larry Potts and Danny Coulson -- were never prosecuted. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, invoking a specious concept it called "Supremacy Clause Immunity," ruled that it would be impermissible for a federal law enforcement officer to face civil or criminal prosecution for official acts that would otherwise be criminal in nature. Judge Alex Kozinski’s scalding dissent lambasted the court for creating what he christened the "007 Standard" – a license to kill that was issued "to all law enforcement agencies in our circuit -- federal, state, and local."

A few months after issuing that ruling, the court modified it to permit the State of Idaho to prosecute Horiuchi under state laws. Denise Woodbury, an assistant prosecutor from Boundary County, was prepared to put Horiuchi on trial, but the prospect of doing so caused incoming county attorney Brett Benson to lose bladder control. Accordingly, the individual who murdered Vicki Weaver and attempted to murder Randy Weaver remains at large.

As the indispensable James Bovard pointed out sixteen years ago, the Marshals Service "gave its highest award for valor" to the five surviving members of the home invasion squad that murdered Samuel Weaver. In presenting the award, then-director Eduardo Gonzalez hymned the praises of the "exceptional courage … sound judgment in the face of attack, and … high degree of professional competence" displayed by the agents whose actions precipitated the needless deaths of three people, and the attempted murder of two others.

Prior to the killings at Ruby Ridge, the Marshals Service had spent a year and a half spying on the impoverished, isolated Weaver family. This included multiple acts of criminal trespass and the creation of a network of remote-operated surveillance cameras on the high ground above the family’s land. Weaver was considered a fugitive for missing a court hearing after being issued two summonses giving two different dates. He was to stand trial on firearms charges after being entrapped by the ATF, which sought to blackmail him into becoming a federal informant inside the Aryan Nation white supremacist organization.

Weaver’s first encounter with the Feds came in July 1985, when he was visited by the Secret Service after a neighbor accused him of threatening the life of President Reagan. Rather than filing charges against Weaver, the Feds opened a file on him. Four years later, an ATF undercover informant-provocateur named Gus Magisano (who used the pseudonym "Kenneth Faderly") made a business proposal to Weaver: He offered to buy several shotguns from him if the barrels were sawed off to his specifications.

With his family practically starving, Weaver was a motivated seller. His customer was an eager buyer – but he was also curiously specific regarding the modifications he wanted on the guns, demanding that Weaver saw off the barrels at a particular length. Those "illegal" alterations – which left the barrels longer than those on the sixty Remington 870 pump-action shotguns ordered by the IRS a few years ago – offered the ATF what it thought was sufficient leverage to blackmail Weaver.

In January 1990, Weaver was visited by ATF Agents Herbert Byerly and Steve Gunderson, who threatened to prosecute him unless he became an informant. To his eternal credit, Weaver invited them to inseminate themselves. Since defiance of that kind simply couldn’t be tolerated, the ATF, acting with the U.S. Marshals Service and several state and local agencies, initiated the low-intensity war against the Weaver family that eventually claimed the lives of Vicki and Samuel.

Salt Lake attorney Jesse Trentadue explains that the federal jihad against the Weavers was an outgrowth of an FBI initiative called PATCON, or "Patriot Conspiracy." The campaign was designed "to infiltrate and incite the milita and evangelical Christians to violence so that the Department of Justice could crush them."

"Ruby Ridge was a PATCON operation," Trentadue observes. "Waco was a PATCON operation. And so, too, I believe was the Oklahoma City Bombing."

Trentadue’s understanding of PATCON is the product of long, arduous investigation of the FBI’s role in inciting domestic terrorism and covering up its officially sanctioned misdeeds. He is a singularly tenacious and motivated investigator: His brother, the late Kenneth Trentadue, was murdered by the FBI in an Oklahoma prison cell on August 21, 1995, after being mistaken for a bank robber named Richard Lee Guthrie, who was part of a PATCON-connected gang called the Aryan Republican Army.

Shortly after the April 19, 1995 OKC bombing, Kenneth – who had served time for robbery and was on parole -- was detained in San Diego as he re-entered the U.S. from Mexico. His wife Carmen had family down in Mexico, and Kenney (as his brother calls him) had made a quick trip to visit them down south.

Kenney was stopped by a border guard who ran a background check on him. He was arrested and stuffed into a plane bound for Oklahoma City.

At the time, Kenney Trentadue was 44 years old, in good health, and trying to rebuild his life. His wife was expecting a child, who was born while Kenney was in federal custody.

Kenney assumed that he was being held on a parole violation. He had no idea that he had been snared in the FBI’s manhunt for "John Doe #2," an unidentified co-conspirator in the OKC bombing. While Kenney was in federal custody, indictments were handed down against Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols – as well as "others unknown" – for their role in the Oklahoma City Bombing. That occurred on August 10. Kenney arrived at the Oklahoma City Federal Transfer Facility – just a few miles from the courtroom where McVeigh and Nicholas had been indicted – on August 18. Three days later, he was dead, supposedly of suicide.

Kenney’s body was "found" hanging from a bedsheet in his cell. A few hours after this "discovery," Kenney’s mother Wilma received a call from acting warden Marie Cutler informing her that her son had killed himself. In a fashion suggesting both indifference to the family and a great deal of urgency, Cutler informed Kenney’s mother that the body was to be cremated very soon.

Although understandably devastated by her son’s death, Mrs. Trentadue had the presence of mind to demand that no action be taken to dispose of the body without the permission of Kenney’s wife. Cutler was surprised to learn that Kenney was the married father of a newborn son; she had been told he was single, because the killers had mistaken their victim for somebody else.

Not only were prison officials indecently eager to cremate Kenney’s body, they were also frantic to sanitize the "suicide-proof" cell. This was a criminal act of evidence tampering.

The floors and walls of the cell were mopped and scrubbed; the bed sheet with which Kenney had supposedly hung himself was "lost" or destroyed; most of his clothing ended up in the possession of an FBI agent who –in the finest tradition of that incurably corrupt agency – let it putrefy in the trunk of his car. Within a few hours of the "suicide," the FBI and prison officials managed to "lose" or destroy most of the critical evidence.

When Kenney’s mother Wilma and older brother Jesse were finally allowed to see the body, they did so in the obnoxious company of Michael Hood, regional counsel for the Bureau of Prisons. As Jesse later recalled the conversation, Hood issued a poorly disguised warning: "The Bureau of Prisons, the FBI and the U.S. Attorney’s office – we’re one big Justice Department."

Left alone with Kenney’s body, Jesse and his mother peeled away several layers of post-mortem makeup. They found his body riddled with contusions and other evidence of a severe beating, administered by both fists and batons. His head had been repeatedly lacerated, and his throat appeared to have been cut.

"My brother had been so badly beaten that I personally saw several mourners leave the viewing to vomit in the parking lot!" Jesse, a trial attorney, wrote in an August 30, 1995 letter to the Bureau of Prisons. "Anyone seeing my brother’s battered body with his bruised and lacerated forehead, throat cut, and blue-black knuckles would not have concluded that his death was either easy or a ‘suicide’! "

"I will always be grateful to my brother for his love of life, great heart and strength," wrote Jesse. "Had my brother been less of a man, your guards would have been able to kill him without inflicting so much injury to his body. Had that occurred, Kenney’s family would forever be guilt-ridden over his death. Each of us would have lived with the pain of thinking that Kenneth took his own life and that we had somehow failed him. By making the fight he did for his life, Ken has saved us that pain, and God bless for having done so!"

Jesse wasn’t the only one who found the official story facially implausible. Kevin Rowland, chief examiner for the Oklahoma Medical Examiner’s office, filed a complaint with the FBI describing Kenney’s death as "murder." The state’s chief Medical Examiner, Fred Jordan, refused to classify the death as a suicide, labeling the cause of Trentadue’s death "unknown."

The Bureau of Prisons convened a board of inquiry, and – in keeping with Michael Hood’s promise – slammed the lid down, hard. The attorney heading the probe classified its findings as "attorney work product," a move intended to foreclose discovery of the material in future court actions.

Cover-ups by corrupt officials are commonplace. However, Jesse Trentadue considered it strange that federal functionaries were so anxious to conceal the circumstances of Kenney’s death. Why would the Feds lie about the cause of Kenney’s death, and then spare no effort to destroy all the evidence?

Shortly after sending his letter to the BOP, Jesse received an anonymous phone call providing him with an explanation: "Look, your brother was murdered by the FBI. There was an interrogation that went wrong…. He fit a profile."

Kenney fell victim to a case of mistaken identity of Dickensian dimensions. He was a near-physical match for Richard Lee Guthrie. They were the same age, and shared the same build -- 5’9″ tall and a muscular 180-190 lbs. Each was brown-haired, with a dragon tattoo on his left forearm. Most importantly, Guthrie was a bank robber, as Kenney had been before going to prison. More specifically, Guthrie robbed banks on behalf of the Aryan Republican Army, which conducted some 22 bank heists in the early 1990s and netted about $250,000 to fund domestic terrorism. At the time of Kenney’s arrest, Guthrie was already somewhere in the bowels of the federal prison system.

Like Kenney, Guthrie would later be the victim of an anomalous prison suicide: His body was "found" by a guard hanging from a bedsheet. Just before his death in 1996, Guthrie had told the Los Angeles Times that he was writing a memoir that would, among other things, describe connections between the ARA and the OKC bombing.

Guthrie wasn't the only other inmate connected to the Trentadue case who would wind up dangling lifelessly from the ceiling of his cell. Alden Gillis Baker, an inmate at the OKC Transfer Center, told Jesse that he had overheard an "altercation" involving "a lot of physical violence" the night Kenney was killed; that was followed by "faint moaning" and the sound of bedsheets being torn. Baker repeated that account in a subsequent deposition that was rejected by a judge. In 2000, Baker was also "found" hanged to death by a guard in a California federal prison.

As this body count demonstrates, the Feds were desperate to conceal something genuinely horrible. Jesse’s understanding of the magnitude of the cover up expanded considerably in 2004, when he received – from a sympathetic source at the FBI – two redacted documents proving that the FBI had been aware of a connection between the OKC bombing and the Aryan Republican Army, which in turn was connected to a bizarre white supremacist commune in Oklahoma called Elohim City.

That tip primed a Freedom of Information Act Request that dislodged more than 250 pages of documents – all of them heavily censored – confirming that the FBI and other federal agencies (including the ATF, which had planted Carol Howe at Elohim City) had abundant and detailed advance intelligence of the 1995 bombing.

As is the case with any significant gathering of white supremacists, Elohim City was a wholly owned subsidiary of the FBI. In addition to Carol Howe (whose cover was blown by her handler when she actually tried to expose those responsible for the OKC bombing), the late Robert Millar, the cult’s patriarch, was also on the federal payroll.

The group’s head of security, a dodgy German national named Andreas Strassmeir, has been identified as an intelligence asset for both Washington and his own national government. A hyper-violent Klan activist named Dennis Mahon, who also spent time at Elohim City, was likewise a paid snitch. At least one other individual there was taking notes and passing them along to the Southern Poverty Law Center, a quasi-private secret police adjunct headed by self-promoting fraud and sexual degenerate Morris Dees.

At least two ARA members were "part-time" residents of Elohim City, and there is abundant reason to believe that Timothy McVeigh – who called the commune just shortly before the OKC bombing – had collaborated with the ARA in carrying out at least some of their robberies.

In 2007, shortly after filing his FOIA request for the OKC bombing videos, Jesse Trentadue contacted by Terry Nichols – who is serving a life sentence for his role in the bombing, and cannot be tried again on capital charges. With Trentadue’s assistance, Nichols filed a deposition in a Salt Lake City federal court.

Not only did Nicholes implicate the ARA in the bombing plot, he claimed that McVeigh – who allegedly had been recruited as an undercover intelligence asset while in the Army – had been working under the supervision of Larry Potts, the same FBI official who wrote the murderous "rules of engagement" at Ruby Ridge and later supervised the annihilation of the Branch Davidians at Mt. Carmel, Texas.

The Feds weren't pursuing Richard Lee Guthrie for the purpose of solving a crime; they were hunting him as part of a nation-wide drive to tie up loose ends in what was either a criminally inept "sting" operation, or a full-fledged false-flag attack at Oklahoma City.

Once Kenneth Trentadue became another loose end, he was tortured and beaten to death -- but his brother, God bless him, was determined to pull as hard as he could on the few frayed threads he could find.

"The only difference between the FBI and the KGB," Jesse Trentadue wearily concludes, "is that the Soviet secret police never pretended to be a legitimate law enforcement agency." That observation was shared on August 21 – twenty years after federal marshals murdered Samuel Weaver, and the seventeenth anniversary of the torture-murder of Kenneth Trentadue, both of whom were victims of the FBI’s ongoing PATCON initiative.

[PaulConventionWV]

So sad what We have allowed.


Well back to my latte. Gonna kick the ac down a couple degrees...kinda warm out.

Make yourself comfortable. No need to be concerned. Why, I'm sure the FBI is doing an internal investigation as we speak...