It's Official: Facebook Is the Department of PreCrime. Marine vet arrested for posts. [Archive]

Anti Federalist

08-20-2012, 02:17 PM

Hat tip to RPF member wgadget for the story from Lew Rockwell's site.

It's Official: Facebook Is the Department of PreCrime

by Paul Rosenberg

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/rosenberg-p7.1.1.html

News has just broken about a freedom activist and former Marine named Brandon Raub, who was arrested (apparently without a warrant or being read his rights) on the evening of August 16th. Details are still coming in, but it appears that his "crime" was posting things that the overseers didn't like on Facebook.

As I recount the facts of this horrifying case (as best I am able), please remember that the violation of this man's natural rights is not the issue I wish to point out, as ultra-valid as that may be.

WHAT HE DID

From the above link, you can find five articles from Brandon on a pro-liberty website. Perhaps we might quibble with these posts on a few points (I'm for abandoning politics rather than trying to use it, for example), but it is clear that the young man is thinking along some good lines.

He also promoted a small freedom march in Richmond, Virginia last November. It was peaceful and I've seen no problems reported. So, aside from a picture of him holding an old rifle, the only thing the overseers had on him were a few recent Facebook posts:

I feel like I am standing at a great crossroads. As if a storm of destiny is about to pick me up and take me to fight a great battle. A battle I could have never imagined existed. 7/24/12

We MUST rise up and take our country back. 7/30/12

I am standing against a great evil. I will do it all by myself if I have to. 8/4/12

This is the part where I tell the Federal Government to go fuck itself. This is the part where I tell Generals, training our young men to fight Americans, I am coming for you. The Veterans will be with me. 8/9/12

I’m starting the Revolution. I’m done waiting. 8/10/12

Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12

The Revolution will come for me. Men will be at my door soon to pick me up to lead it. 8/14/12

The Revolution is here. And I will lead it. 8/14/12

#6, by the way, seems to be a lyric from a song called Bring Me Down by a band called Swollen Members. Several of these sound like rants a lot of us have had in moments of frustration.

THE POINT

I expect further facts to emerge about Brandon and what has been done to him, and I expect to see some creative statist media spin. Regardless of whatever facts emerge, I suspect that high law enforcers will get the talking heads to reassure the public that this was done to keep them safe. The obedient onlookers will be given a reason to ignore the story.

The point I want you to get is that Facebook is the Department of PreCrime. Everything you do there (or your friends, family or co-workers do there) is monitored and may be taken as a valid reason for armed men to grab you and lock you up.

In order to respond within in a day or two of a post, an entire infrastructure, including both computing power and manpower, had to be in place. The overseers are not going to abandon this infrastructure.

Some of us have warned about this previously, but this is the first time the results have been seen in public.

There is one fact that I left out above: Brandon was NOT taken to a jail – he was taken to a mental hospital. That is also a big deal. Forced committal is a very nasty tactic that was used regularly in the USSR and the other communist slave states. By declaring someone who opposes the state insane, you can disappear them, while assuring the want-to-believe public that you are benevolent and just.

The bottom line is that Brandon didn't actually DO anything. A friend of Brandon's explained this well:

I served alongside Brandon both in Iraq and in Afghanistan. He was in my combat engineer platoon in Iraq in 2006 and in Afghanistan 2011

Brandon was the man who opened my eyes to the slow hemorrhaging of civil rights in America and the extreme and purposeful devaluation of the dollar.

Whether you agree with his method or mode of expressing himself is erroneous. He has broken no laws and hurt no one.

What Brandon did do, was to type certain words into the Bureau of PreCrime's servers, aka, Facebook. For this, he was promptly picked up by a swarm of law enforcers, including the FBI, Secret Service, and county police.

Facebook is the Department of PreCrime, and the rest of the Internet is following. You had better start taking that seriously.

And please don't expect this situation to be reformed. Since 9-11, law enforcement on all levels has been publicly worshipped beyond measure. Aside from reality shows and sports, television has effectively become Cop Worship Theater. Their arrogance and their power will not go away for a long time.

Face this or don't. It's your life.

Razmear

08-20-2012, 03:00 PM

I still think this Brandon Raub BS is just a distraction from the real hero, Bradley Manning who deserves our support more than some FB troll.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/305042_4348895398447_377644242_n.jpg

Anti Federalist

08-20-2012, 03:04 PM

^^^^ Well, you won't find me disagreeing with the fact that Manning needs our support as well.

Anybody know what Manning's status is?

Last I heard, he had pretty much become an unperson.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

08-20-2012, 03:06 PM

THE POINT

I expect further facts to emerge about Brandon and what has been done to him, and I expect to see some creative statist media spin. Regardless of whatever facts emerge, I suspect that high law enforcers will get the talking heads to reassure the public that this was done to keep them safe. The obedient onlookers will be given a reason to ignore the story.

The point I want you to get is that Facebook is the Department of PreCrime. Everything you do there (or your friends, family or co-workers do there) is monitored and may be taken as a valid reason for armed men to grab you and lock you up.

THIS IS WHERE Paul Rosenberg IS WRONG.

Now is the time to not be pussies, and start exercising your freedom of speech - everywhere. Yep, even on facebook. Why? Because they're crunching every post you make on the internet anyway, and you're better off doing it under your own name. Otherwise, they'll just be hauling off "GoofyGuy" from "GovernmentShitForums.com" and no one will know the fucking difference, besides that "GoofyGuy" stopped posting. That's why.

Indy Vidual

08-20-2012, 03:15 PM

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

08-20-2012, 03:30 PM

Ron Paul teaches peaceful methods:
Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12 = Not peaceful.

Would the good Doc be happy to see his supporters defending Brandon Raub?

What head did he sever?

RP is a 1A and 2A supporter. Roll that around in your head.

r3volution

08-20-2012, 03:31 PM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

pcosmar

08-20-2012, 03:31 PM

Ron Paul teaches peaceful methods:
Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12 = Not peaceful.

Would the good Doc be happy to see his supporters defending Brandon Raub?

You dig that pic up yourself?
It doesn't appear on his wall..

Oh,, and my home defense is an axe. I am denied firearms.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2458/3804800686_f73419a7b0_z.jpg

Most of his posts are no more violent that anywhere on the web,, certainly less so than the Evening News.

phill4paul

08-20-2012, 03:32 PM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpnrODVgLjHYikrxKJcfZfK3NFlG21M 8_VA7nMPfpdUfJwkeCqHw

phill4paul

08-20-2012, 03:34 PM

Ron Paul teaches peaceful methods:
Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12 = Not peaceful.

[warning: graphic image that was un-imbedded by mod]
http://i.imgur.com/pWamd.jpg

Would the good Doc be happy to see his supporters defending Brandon Raub?

"They should be tarred and feathered!"

Now awaiting my 30 day stay at a psychiatric facility.

Golding

08-20-2012, 03:35 PM

Ron Paul teaches peaceful methods:
Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12 = Not peaceful.

Would the good Doc be happy to see his supporters defending Brandon Raub?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP1-fxkrN6Y

2:00 mark.

donnay

08-20-2012, 03:37 PM

This is exactly what Stalin did.

Indy Vidual

08-20-2012, 08:38 PM

....
Most of his posts are no more violent that anywhere on the web,, certainly less so than the Evening News.

"They should be tarred and feathered!"

Now awaiting my 30 day stay at a psychiatric facility.

{{Let's take a few seconds to get on the same page, so we don't waste time and cause misunderstandings}}

Issue 2: Freedom of Speech and Orwellian Pre-Crime

Should people be allowed to say what he did, without getting picked up by the Gov?
Yes, of course they should be.

Issue 1: Ron Paul Supporters who Want a Violent Revolution

If you are looking to start up, or support people who are starting, a violent revolution then you are in the wrong place.
If you are intentionally trying to make Ron Paul supporters appear to support violence, then you are/could be a traitor.

Since Brandon was a Ron Paul supporter who was also "ready for violence", he does not deserve our support.
His type makes us all look bad, and increases the danger we are already in.

angelatc

08-20-2012, 08:43 PM

Dr.3D

08-20-2012, 08:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP1-fxkrN6Y

2:00 mark.
Seems he was rambling and was taken out of context by the Department of PreCrime.

LibertyEagle

08-20-2012, 08:53 PM

Ron Paul teaches peaceful methods:
Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12 = Not peaceful.

[mod: graphic image]
http://i.imgur.com/pWamd.jpg

Would the good Doc be happy to see his supporters defending Brandon Raub?

Yes, I believe he would. Certainly at this point. There is no valid excuse for keeping him for 30 days with no charges, no trial, no nothing. NONE.

Either charge him or let him go.

EDIT: And it has nothing to do with him being a RP supporter. He is an American. Just like you and just like me.

pcosmar

08-20-2012, 09:04 PM

Issue 1: Ron Paul Supporters who Want a Violent Revolution

I take offense to this accusation and characterization.
And I have been in the company of Patriots and Militia before I was a Ron Paul supporter.

I am also a 2nd Amendment advocate and understand fully the implications of that very important Amendment.

I know of NO ONE that wants a violent Revolution.
Preparing for, and discussing the realities of resisting Tyranny does not equal wanting it.
Most I know do NOT want it at all, and would much prefer peaceful solutions,, and actively work toward them.

The Violence always comes FROM government.. Discussions of countering or meeting that violence are becoming more and more difficult.
This will make it nearly impossible for good men to meet, or make necessary preparations to defend themselves from a violent assault.

I find your words to be quite insulting.

amy31416

08-20-2012, 09:06 PM

{{Let's take a few seconds to get on the same page, so we don't waste time and cause misunderstandings}}

Issue 2: Freedom of Speech and Orwellian Pre-Crime

Should people be allowed to say what he did, without getting picked up by the Gov?
Yes, of course they should be.

Issue 1: Ron Paul Supporters who Want a Violent Revolution

If you are looking to start up, or support people who are starting, a violent revolution then you are in the wrong place.
If you are intentionally trying to make Ron Paul supporters appear to support violence, then you are/could be a traitor.

Since Brandon was a Ron Paul supporter who was also "ready for violence", he does not deserve our support.
His type makes us all look bad, and increases the danger we are already in.

I'm sure there are some supporters who are armchair warriors with fantasies about violent revolution, but the majority of us want to avoid that at all costs because we ain't stupid and realize that there is tremendous value to our own and many other people's lives. I think it's more of a matter of thinking that it may be inevitable.

low preference guy

08-20-2012, 09:10 PM

QuickZ06

08-20-2012, 09:17 PM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

LOL what????

Brian4Liberty

08-20-2012, 09:51 PM

I feel like I am standing at a great crossroads. As if a storm of destiny is about to pick me up and take me to fight a great battle. A battle I could have never imagined existed. 7/24/12

We MUST rise up and take our country back. 7/30/12

I am standing against a great evil. I will do it all by myself if I have to. 8/4/12

This is the part where I tell the Federal Government to go fuck itself. This is the part where I tell Generals, training our young men to fight Americans, I am coming for you. The Veterans will be with me. 8/9/12

I’m starting the Revolution. I’m done waiting. 8/10/12

Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12

The Revolution will come for me. Men will be at my door soon to pick me up to lead it. 8/14/12

The Revolution is here. And I will lead it. 8/14/12

This is the first I have seen of his actual posts. Not to take sides, but the bolded statements could be straight from a text book for identifying mental disorders. Delusions of grandeur. The cops would be familiar with this, because they are usually given psych tests for this before they can become cops (in general). Considering the recent theater shooting, and combining this with the violent aspects of some posts, it's not surprising he went for a psychiatric hold. No doubt a Judge would go along with it. What remains to be seen is if all appropriate Constitional processes were properly followed. IIRC, it is usually a 72 hour hold, but could be extended to 14 days (might be a State law). After that, we would be talking unconstitutional Guantanamo style indefinite detention.

low preference guy

08-20-2012, 10:40 PM

low preference guy

08-20-2012, 10:42 PM

Considering the recent theater shooting...

never let a crisis go to waste

NewRightLibertarian

08-20-2012, 10:44 PM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

Good riddance

Brian4Liberty

08-20-2012, 10:48 PM

never let a crisis go to waste

What they will do is expect every schizophrenic to be a potential mass murderer (not true of course). Just like they still expect every person getting on a plane to want to take over the plane with a razor blade (which will never happen again).

Anti Federalist

08-20-2012, 10:51 PM

LOL what????

Some folks are very uncomfortable at having the obvious fact of where we are pointed out to them.

It becomes easier to just walk away and say everybody is nuts.

Some men really want their steak.

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://getfile2.posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/avatarnemo/7g5jwrTxy4X1n1nRXWWkFKb1bJfnh2r7KPQmG0gaOF3Rqqz77y Wtf0FglhVd/image001.jpg&sa=X&ei=fxMzUPKMI46GiQKSqYG4CQ&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHVRPAvHCVIkIdXo0JJcXt2NbfGFg

Anti Federalist

08-20-2012, 10:57 PM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

Says the man whose forum user name is "Revolution".

:rolleyes:

See ya in Camp Fed.

Indy Vidual

08-20-2012, 10:58 PM

Save your anger for someone else.
I stand by what I actually wrote, not what you are spinning it into.

...

I find your words to be quite insulting.

Then read more carefully:
Issue 2: Freedom of Speech and Orwellian Pre-Crime

Should people be allowed to say what he did, without getting picked up by the Gov?
Yes, of course they should be.

Issue 1: Ron Paul Supporters...

..You want to pick on one word I could have written a bit better?
I prefer an honest debate re: the meaning of the words.
If you're up to it, please continue.

Brian4Liberty

08-20-2012, 10:58 PM

pffft. any physician friendly to the government can do what he is asked and follow all the procedures. if that power is given to the government, it's very easy to abuse.

Just to be clear, you mean the power that they currently have, and have had long before the Patriot Act (72 hour hold and extensions)?

QuickZ06

08-20-2012, 10:59 PM

Some folks are very uncomfortable at having the obvious fact of where we are pointed out to them.

It becomes easier to just walk away and say everybody is nuts.

Some men really want their steak.

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://getfile2.posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/avatarnemo/7g5jwrTxy4X1n1nRXWWkFKb1bJfnh2r7KPQmG0gaOF3Rqqz77y Wtf0FglhVd/image001.jpg&sa=X&ei=fxMzUPKMI46GiQKSqYG4CQ&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHVRPAvHCVIkIdXo0JJcXt2NbfGFg

So true, yet so sad.

Anti Federalist

08-20-2012, 10:59 PM

Brian4Liberty

08-20-2012, 11:05 PM

Last word I saw was a 30 day hold at an undisclosed location.

I don't see anyplace where the Constitution authorizes that.

States rights, although they have severely limited the States In this area via the Constitution in recent decades.

Involuntary commitment is governed by state law and procedures vary from state to state. In some jurisdictions, laws regarding the commitment of juveniles may vary, with what is the de facto involuntary commitment of a juvenile perhaps de jure defined as "voluntary" if his parents agree, though he may still have a right to protest and attempt to get released. However, there is a body of case law governing the civil commitment of individuals under the Fourteenth Amendment through U.S. Supreme Court rulings beginning with Addington v. Texas in 1979 which set the bar for involuntary commitment for treatment by raising the burden of proof required to commit persons from the usual civil burden of proof of "preponderance of the evidence" to the higher standard of "clear and convincing" evidence.[20]

In 1975, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that involuntary hospitalization and/or treatment violates an individual's civil rights in O'Connor v. Donaldson. This ruling forced individual states to change their statutes. For example, the individual must be exhibiting behavior that is a danger to himself or others in order to be held, the hold must be for evaluation only and a court order must be received for more than very short term treatment or hospitalization (typically no longer than 72 hours). This ruling has severely limited involuntary treatment and hospitalization in the U.S.[21] In the U.S. the specifics of the relevant statutes vary from state to state.[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment

Brian4Liberty

08-20-2012, 11:07 PM

Last word I saw was a 30 day hold at an undisclosed location.

I don't see anyplace where the Constitution authorizes that.

And yes, 30 days exceeds current standards, and is heading in the direction of indefinite political detention.

DamianTV

08-21-2012, 02:24 AM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

Let me know if you find mine. It shouldnt be worth that much to anyone else. Its slightly used, and quite possibly could get you in trouble if you try to use it in public.

king_nothing_

08-21-2012, 03:35 AM

This is the first I have seen of his actual posts. Not to take sides, but the bolded statements could be straight from a text book for identifying mental disorders. Delusions of grandeur. The cops would be familiar with this, because they are usually given psych tests for this before they can become cops (in general). Considering the recent theater shooting, and combining this with the violent aspects of some posts, it's not surprising he went for a psychiatric hold. No doubt a Judge would go along with it. What remains to be seen is if all appropriate Constitional processes were properly followed. IIRC, it is usually a 72 hour hold, but could be extended to 14 days (might be a State law). After that, we would be talking unconstitutional Guantanamo style indefinite detention.
This is all the beside the point in my opinion. "Textbook case of mental disorder." "Constitutional processes." Let's remind ourselves that we're talking about mere posts on an internet site here. Whether or not they properly followed Constitutional processes is totally irrelevant in my opinion. Revered pieces of paper cannot legitimize locking someone in a hospital against their will due to their speech. Does anyone here care whether or not the most evil, murderous governments in history followed their own proper, formal procedures while carrying out their horrible deeds? No? Then why do you care whether or not ours does?

Moreover, please tell me why you think any person or group should have the moral right to restrict someone's freedom for a mere mental illness which has yet to result in any violent behavior whatsoever. I have to say, the allusion to PreCrime really is relevant here.

(Though I would have to disagree with the characterization of Facebook as being the "Department of PreCrime". The posts in question were posted on a publicly accessible, privately owned website; the government simply used that website to help themselves with their speech monitoring agenda. Is there a "PreCrime" department? Effectively, yes; they're known as the FBI, Secret Service, etc. Putting blame on Facebook though makes about as much sense as putting blame on a book publisher if the government detained one of its authors for controversial speech.)

tod evans

08-21-2012, 03:51 AM

Since Brandon was a Ron Paul supporter who was also "ready for violence", he does not deserve our support.
His type makes us all look bad, and increases the danger we are already in.

I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly, "Ready" doesn't mean "going to institute"....

Any of us who are not "ready" for violence are foolish.

Not only the government but countless nut-jobs in civilian cloths would be happy to reign violence down on the unsuspecting were they not "ready" for it.

An intelligent person should be "ready" for cup-cakes from a friendly neighbor too....

Proclaiming in person or in cyber-ink that you're "ready" only means that you're prepared.......

tod evans

08-21-2012, 03:52 AM

Forum's buggy this morning!

tod evans

08-21-2012, 04:00 AM

/////

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

08-21-2012, 10:04 AM

I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly, "Ready" doesn't mean "going to institute"....

Any of us who are not "ready" for violence are foolish.

I'd say anyone with a home defense firearm is "ready" for violence. Either that, or they might be better off without a firearm in the home.

HOLLYWOOD

08-21-2012, 10:47 AM

Heh. According to the officials, nobody is actually responsible for taking him into custody. The FBI says they weren't involved, the Secret Service says they only investigated, and the Sheriff says they were only helping the FBI.

http://www.businessinsider.com/former-marine-brandon-raub-is-being-held-in-a-psychiatric-ward-over-facebook-posts-about-911-2012-8

S (http://www.businessinsider.com/former-marine-brandon-raub-is-being-held-in-a-psychiatric-ward-over-facebook-posts-about-911-2012-8)o, since nobody actually took him into custody, he must have checked himself in, like all good citizens do.

Seriously, we should all make that ax statement our Facebook status or something. Because driving up there to protest is too much work.

This is how they are able to take you away...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2191373/Marine-Corps-Veteran-Brandon-J-Raub-detained-FBI-psychiatric-testing-anti-government-Facebook-posts.html

Police used a state law[Virginia] which allows emergency, temporary psychiatric commitments upon the recommendation of a mental health professional[government employee] to hold Mr Raub at the John Randolph Medical Centre in Hopewell, although he has not been charged with any crime.I'm wondering were Virginian Attorney General, Ken Cuccinell is standing on this? He is a Libertarian.

All of this shows us, at least, how important it is to have good recording devices to document tyranny.

PS: Where's corporate Fascist Media? You figure Warmongering NEWSCORP/FOX NEWS that pushes the military, nationalism, and jingoism 24/7 would cover "Another Military Hero From Iraq and Afghanistan". Oh Wait... :rolleyes:

thoughtomator

08-21-2012, 11:22 AM

Get the hell off of Facebook, people. It's a pre-stocked fishing pond for badged thugs - don't volunteer to be a fish.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 11:31 AM

Bosco Warden

08-21-2012, 11:38 AM

They do not want any organized resistance or communication for resistance. Period.

True that, its important for everyone to understand what it is they support, and they need to know intimately. It will be challenged here soon, and those that stand for nothing will surely fall for anything.

the whole internet goes through whats called a fusion center, privately owned, and some say its owned by an Israeli company, regardless they are real, and everything is monitored that travels over the internet cloud.

Facebook is just an easy target, because its a central domain but its all being monitored.

Realistically its not yet practical but it will be.

HOLLYWOOD

08-21-2012, 12:11 PM

It's also for the government to create divide and distrust in one another... that's one of many plans.

You have Congress recently funding "Propaganda within the US borders" Government organizations funding propaganda on all social media/accounts. Their job is to; report, entrap, breakup, denounce, and divide on social media 24/7. Indicator: Watch for those that challenge freedoms/liberties and spam these sites 24/7.

There has been countless threads/evidence of government funding social media operations to "steer" public opinion/thoughts into the government's communistic collectivizes. Survey after survey around the world has proven the same results... 90+% of humans are followers. To reach that 100 percentile, government runs their well planned operations to fool or force the rest. If you are of critical deductive individualist thinking, you are labeled; "Lone Wolf" "Mentally Unfit" "Crazy" "Loon" "Terrorist" etc etc. You see it happening and recently now, quite often. But to reconfirm this is a rigged game, Fascist corporate media(NAB) has proven they are absolutely "Partners in Crime" censoring and exploiting, as Big Brother sees fit and that's why executive media representatives meet each week with senior government officials/depts on press propaganda operanda. It's all Kabuki Theater and the illusion of a Constitutional Republic and the home of the semi-free.

Former CIA director William Casey's words during the 1980s have become complete reality today.

Brian4Liberty

08-21-2012, 12:38 PM

This is all the beside the point in my opinion. "Textbook case of mental disorder." "Constitutional processes." Let's remind ourselves that we're talking about mere posts on an internet site here. Whether or not they properly followed Constitutional processes is totally irrelevant in my opinion. Revered pieces of paper cannot legitimize locking someone in a hospital against their will due to their speech. Does anyone here care whether or not the most evil, murderous governments in history followed their own proper, formal procedures while carrying out their horrible deeds? No? Then why do you care whether or not ours does?

Moreover, please tell me why you think any person or group should have the moral right to restrict someone's freedom for a mere mental illness which has yet to result in any violent behavior whatsoever. I have to say, the allusion to PreCrime really is relevant here.
...

I was talking about what is, not what should be. And I have said in multiple posts that mental illness is no reason to assume violence or to lock someone up. The process right now has temporary holds. People can not (and should not) be locked up longer than the 72 hours if they haven't committed a crime (and once again, mental illness is not a crime).

As for this particular case, and from the other thread on this subject, here is what should have been done if someone were to report this guy as being potentially dangerous, and after the Police read his posts:

IMHO, the correct course of action would have been for them to send a military doctor and civilian doctor to talk to him at his home. Barring any signs of him being bat-shit looney and a danger to himself or others, they should have explained the concerns with his posts, and then left.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 12:40 PM

.

Realistically its not yet practical but it will be.

Yes it is.. Within hours of the arrest of a couple folks,, the web was full of information,,not only Facebook but other sources.
When the Sikh shooter was announced,,SPLC said that he had been tracked for 10 years,,and they had files on him.

I avoided getting a computer for years (when everyone else had them) for this very reason..
It was when I was refinancing my home that I found all my information was already out there,, and available to anyone,,except me.
My online presence allows me to put my "spin" on it. And I had no opportunity to do that before.

Databases exist,, you are cataloged,, that is simply a reality that must be accepted.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

08-21-2012, 02:52 PM

Get the hell off of Facebook, people. It's a pre-stocked fishing pond for badged thugs - don't volunteer to be a fish.

It is not just Facebook.
They are monitoring posts here, and on any other forum,, Comments to News articles..
Anything and anywhere as well as Phone calls and E-mail.

Yep... all of your data is getting crunched, people. When you finally accept that, you will see why posting things in the open, with your real name, and directed toward your real friends is advantageous.

Of course... if I worked at an agency who wanted to put fear in people for expressing their opinions, thoughtomator would be quite the asset for me. Here's why. That agency already knows YOU and they already know what you post as "thoughtomator." Who will know you are gone and who will be standing with you? Your friends will be saying "We had no idea." My friends will be saying "Yeah, we pretty much agree with everything he said. This sounds like bullshit."

Seriously, some of you guys will be a lot better off coming out of the closet. The people you're afraid of already know you. Either that, or they'll have no problem sorting you when they feel like it later. Nothing you do on the internet is private unless you're taking a whole shit ton of precautions and know what you're doing. You're being tracked all over the place.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 03:11 PM

I'm not going to make it easy for the bastards, just to line some assholes pocket to the tune of billions of dollars.

Yep... all of your data is getting crunched, people. When you finally accept that, you will see why posting things in the open, with your real name, and directed toward your real friends is advantageous.

Of course... if I worked at an agency who wanted to put fear in people for expressing their opinions, thoughtomator would be quite the asset for me. Here's why. That agency already knows YOU and they already know what you post as "thoughtomator." Who will know you are gone and who will be standing with you? Your friends will be saying "We had no idea." My friends will be saying "Yeah, we pretty much agree with everything he said. This sounds like bullshit."

Seriously, some of you guys will be a lot better off coming out of the closet. The people you're afraid of already know you. Either that, or they'll have no problem sorting you when they feel like it later. Nothing you do on the internet is private unless you're taking a whole shit ton of precautions and know what you're doing. You're being tracked all over the place.

mport1

08-21-2012, 03:16 PM

I wish liberty supporters would stop using violent rhetoric. Violence is not the answer. We will only achieve liberty through peaceful means.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

08-21-2012, 03:20 PM

I'm not going to make it easy for the bastards, just to line some assholes pocket to the tune of billions of dollars.

Then you have an ethical objection. I can respect that. The practical objection usually comes from people who erroneously think they have some anonymity. Even if they don't have the ability to process all of the information they're collecting ( as pcosmar says), the datacenter they're building in Utah will fix that issue FAST. Certainly, they're collecting the data straight from their previously illegal orgy with the telecoms, and have been for many years. This "behavior recognition" camera bullshit is nothing compared to years of internet posts.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 03:31 PM

I wish liberty supporters would stop using violent rhetoric. Violence is not the answer. We will only achieve liberty through peaceful means.

And what are we to do about the violence in the mean time,, I mean other than dying.

I mean,,lining up for the trains is peaceful.
Kneeling at the edge of the mass grave is peaceful enough.

You believe that slavery and subservience and blind obedience are going to free us?

Just how many deaths will it take before you will resist?
I am curious,,because in the whole history of Mankind,, liberty (even a limited liberty) has never been achieved without a fight.
And before you name Gandhi,, thousands died in that bloody mess,
he didn't fight,, That does not mean there was not violence. And in the end the British were just replaced with others.

tod evans

08-21-2012, 03:36 PM

I honestly hope these folks who still have ideology never have to stare down the barrel of a gun, especially one wielded by one of their countrymen.

Realistically, it's unlikely unless they profess different ideals than are expounded here.

And what are we to do about the violence in the mean time,, I mean other than dying.

I mean,,lining up for the trains is peaceful.
Kneeling at the edge of the mass grave is peaceful enough.

You believe that slavery and subservience and blind obedience are going to free us?

Just how many deaths will it take before you will resist?
I am curious,,because in the whole history of Mankind,, liberty (even a limited liberty) has never been achieved without a fight.
And before you name Gandhi,, thousands died in that bloody mess,
he didn't fight,, That does not mean there was not violence. And in the end the British were just replaced with others.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 03:57 PM

Was he or was he not advocating violence?

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:00 PM

Was he or was he not advocating violence?

later you and i will be competing. i will crush you.

have i or have i not threatened you with violence?

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:03 PM

Was he or was he not advocating violence?

Meanwhile, Raub is locked away in a psychiatric ward in John Randolph Medical Center outside Richmond, Virginia where he was allowed to be interviewed by the Richmond Times-Dispatch via telephone.

“I’m currently in John Randolph in the psychiatric ward being held against my will,” Raub said in a telephone interview.

Raub said Secret Service, FBI and Chesterfield police officers came to his home Thursday.

“They were concerned about me calling for the arrest of government officials,” he said.

http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/20/brandon-raub-involuntarily-committed-for-first-amendment-speech-on-facebook/

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:03 PM

later you and i will be competing. i will crush you.

have i or have i not threatened you with violence?

That doesn't answer my question and doesn't have anything to do with this thread. It seems that he *might have been with all his talk of a coming revolution, sharpening up axes to chop off heads, and those few other posts about how he would lead the revolution. I don't see anything about calling for the arrest of government officials.

*Notice I said might have been instead of stating that he was.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:04 PM

Oh and nice fast edit there DDT.

I saw what you wrote before you changed it...

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:07 PM

That doesn't answer my question

my point was that the answer to the question i asked you is as subjective as the question you asked. both questions have the same answer.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:10 PM

That doesn't answer my question and doesn't have anything to do with this thread. It seems that he *might have been with all his talk of a coming revolution, sharpening up axes to chop off heads, and those few other posts about how he would lead the revolution. I don't see anything about calling for the arrest of government officials.

*Notice I said might have been instead of stating that he was.

I believe he was repeating a verse from a song.. though I could be mistaken.

Did he say who's head he planed to sever?

in other words,,was it a direct threat? or was it a vague and open statement?

Was it any different that bar talk "they ought to hang that SOB" ??

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:13 PM

Was it any different that bar talk "they ought to hang that SOB" ??

was it different from Sarah Palin telling her supporters to "reload"?

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:18 PM

You can be arrested for making vague threats against a government official. People need to be more careful what they type on the internet (especially FB). Who in their right mind would type this

Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads.

and then follow it with this

This is the part where I tell the Federal Government to go fuck itself. This is the part where I tell Generals, training our young men to fight Americans, I am coming for you. The Veterans will be with me.

If his defense is that he was talking about having them arrested then he should have said something about that in at least one of his posts. If he had typed this instead of what he did he wouldn't be in the psych ward right now.

This is the part where I tell the Federal Government to go fuck itself. This is the part where I tell the Generals, training our young men to fight Americans, the American people will no longer stand for your crimes and you will be brought to justice. The veterans will stand with me as you are standing trial for your war crimes.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:22 PM

If his defense is that he was talking about having them arrested then he should have said something about that in at least one of his posts. If he had typed this instead of what he did he wouldn't be in the psych ward right now.

That's not what he said.

Is he lying?

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:24 PM

That's not what he said.

Is he lying?

“They were concerned about me calling for the arrest of government officials,” he said.

That is what he said. He never mentioned any of that in the posts that have been called into question.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:24 PM

You can be arrested for making vague threats against a government official. People need to be more careful what they type on the internet (especially FB). Who in their right mind would type this

and then follow it with this

.

I read his Facebook.. it was not followed by anything like that..
There were NO threats.

I do suspect that he was communicating with someone else,, Possibly the very men that came for him.
He said they were coming for him,, to lead the revolution.

Very possibly another case of the FBI creating their own "terrorists"

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:25 PM

using violent imagery doesn't imply psychopathy. the guy is a political prisoner because he supports Ron Paul and is an example for others to stay quiet.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:25 PM

Boy, this place will be a hoot when one of us gets hauled off next.

"I never liked that guy."

"They should have banned him years ago."

Yeah, not what we want 'representing the movement' at all."

tod evans

08-21-2012, 04:27 PM

On what authority was he committed, anybody know yet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment

Involuntary commitment or civil commitment is a legal process through which an individual with symptoms of severe mental illness is court-ordered into treatment in a hospital (inpatient) or in the community (outpatient).
Criteria for civil commitment are established by law, which varies between nations, in the U.S., from state to state, and in Canada, from province to province. Commitment proceedings often follow a period of emergency hospitalization during which an individual with acute psychiatric symptoms is confined for a relatively short duration (e.g. 72 hours) in a treatment facility for evaluation and stabilization by mental health professionals - who may then determine whether further civil commitment is appropriate or necessary. If civil commitment proceedings follow, the evaluation is presented in a formal court hearing where testimony and other evidence may also be submitted.[citation needed] The subject of the hearing is typically entitled to legal counsel and may challenge a commitment order through habeas corpus rules.
"The law provides a process known as Involuntary Commitment. Involuntary commitment is the use of legal means to commit a person to a mental hospital or psychiatric ward against their will or over their protests".[1]
Historically, until the first third of the twentieth century or later in most jurisdictions, all committals to public psychiatric facilities and most committals to private ones were involuntary. Since then, there have been alternating trends towards the abolition or substantial reduction of involuntary commitment,[1] a trend known as "deinstitutionalization."

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:29 PM

using violent imagery doesn't imply psychopathy. the guy is a political prisoner because he supports Ron Paul and is an example for others to stay quiet.

I'm a Ron Paul supporter and I'm not in the psych ward. Want to know my secret? I don't advocate violence or say anything that could be misinterpreted as an attempt at inciting violence.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:31 PM

On what authority was he committed, anybody know yet?

What more authority is needed these days, when the POTUS has the authority to kill US citizens on his say so alone?

They didn't like what he was saying and "they" came and hauled him off.

This is how it starts folks...small actions, one individual at a time, so as not to spook the sleepers.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:32 PM

I'm a Ron Paul supporter and I'm not in the psych ward.

Yet...give it a little while.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:34 PM

Yet...give it a little while.

It's never going to happen. Only people who act like arm chair warriors and talk about militias and taking back the country through violence will end up in the psych ward or prison.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:35 PM

I'm a Ron Paul supporter and I'm not in the psych ward. Want to know my secret? I don't advocate violence or say anything that could be misinterpreted as an attempt at inciting violence.

Not a supporter of the Second Amendment?
Ron Paul is.
And the Militia (despite the SPLC bullshit) is Defensive, ALWAYS.

This man made no threat. If he did he would be arrested for that threat..
But he was not,, he was hauled off in an end run around the law..

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:36 PM

Yet...give it a little while.

exactly. use of violence imagery is normal in political speech. it's not a sign of psychopathy. doing anything other that condemning the illegal capture will only encourage them to arrest even less controversial supporters.

tod evans

08-21-2012, 04:37 PM

It's never going to happen. Only people who act like arm chair warriors and talk about militias and taking back the country through violence will end up in the psych ward or prison.

And this is okay with you?

Putting folks in prison or psych wards for talking..

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:38 PM

And the Militia (despite the SPLC bullshit) is Defensive, ALWAYS.

Yeah. I guess that's why so many of them have been hauled into court for making threats, building bombs, shooting people, robbing gun stores and banks, etc.

Here are some examples of their "defensive" nature:

9/12/95 -- Antigovernment extremist Charles Ray Polk is indicted by a federal grand jury for plotting to blow up the Internal Revenue Service building in Austin, Tex. At the time of his arrest, Polk is trying to purchase plastic explosives to add to a huge illegal arsenal he's already amassed.

He will be sentenced the following year to almost 21 years in federal prison, although an appeals court eventually reduces that term by five years.

10/9/95 -- Saboteurs derail an Amtrak passenger train near Hyder, Ariz., killing one person and injuring many others. An antigovernment message, signed by the "Sons of Gestapo," is left behind. The perpetrators will remain at large.

11/9/95 -- Oklahoma Constitutional Militia leader Willie Ray Lampley, his wife and another man are arrested as they prepare explosives to bomb numerous targets, including the Southern Poverty Law Center. The three, and another suspect arrested later, will be sentenced to terms of up to 11 years in 1996. An appeals court will uphold Lampley's sentence the following year.

4/26/96 -- Two leaders of the Militia-at-Large of the Republic of Georgia, Robert Edward Starr III and William James McCranie Jr., are charged with manufacturing shrapnel bombs for distribution to militia members. Later in the year, they will be sentenced on explosive charges to terms of up to eight years. Another Militia-at-Large member, accused of training a team to assassinate politicians, will be convicted of conspiracy.

7/1/96 -- Twelve members of an Arizona militia group called the Viper Team are arrested on federal conspiracy, weapons and explosive charges after allegedly surveiling government buildings as potential targets. Ten members will plead guilty to various charges, drawing sentences of up to nine years in prison.

10/11/96 -- Seven members of the Mountaineer Militia are arrested in a plot to blow up the FBI's national fingerprint records center in West Virginia. In 1998, leader Floyd "Ray" Looker, will be sentenced to 18 years in prison.

Two other defendants are later sentenced on explosives charges and a third will draw a year in prison

And this is okay with you?

Putting folks in prison or psych wards for talking..

There's a little thing called the law and despite what you may think you have to follow it. Making threats and no matter how vague they are will land you somewhere you don't want to be.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:40 PM

It's never going to happen.

See,, The Battle of Athens.

The sad part is,,that it doesn't happen a lot more often. It Should.

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:42 PM

There's a little thing called the law and despite what you may think you have to follow it.

just being a Ron Paul supporter can be considered disrespectful to authority, which could be defined as a sign of psychopathy, which actually happened in the soviet union. by justifying this abuse, you're just increasing the likelihood that you'll end up locked up.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:44 PM

just being a Ron Paul supporter can be considered disrespectful to authority, which could be defined as a sign of psychopathy, which actually happened in the soviet union. by justifying this abuse, you're just increasing the likelihood that you'll end up locked up.

When I tell people I support Ron Paul they don't consider it disrespectful to authority or a sign of psychopathy. I wonder why...

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:45 PM

Forum post glitch strikes again.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:45 PM

Yeah. I guess that's why so many of them have been hauled into court for making threats, building bombs,

Referring to the Hutaree,,? they were acquitted.
And the only bombs were made by the FBI agent that was setting them up.
In the week before their arrest they were doing Search and Rescue with the Local LE.

The last couple of Terrorist plots "foiled" by the FBI were folks set up and fully handled by the FBI.
It is their Modus Operandi .

Any time any of these folks get set up,, you will find FED involvement.
Usually they create the whole scenario.

tod evans

08-21-2012, 04:46 PM

There's a little thing called the law and despite what you may think you have to follow it. Making threats and no matter how vague they are will land you somewhere you don't want to be.

Help me understand which "law" this fellow has been charged with violating...

I asked if it was okay with you if folks get sent to prison or the psych ward for talking, not what your interpretation of the law was.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:46 PM

Referring to the Hutaree,,? they were acquitted.
And the only bombs were made by the FBI agent that was setting them up.
In the week before their arrest they were doing Search and Rescue with the Local LE.

The last couple of Terrorist plots "foiled" by the FBI were folks set up and fully handled by the FBI.
It is their Modus Operandi .

No. I'm referring to the militias I listed in my post who were all convicted of their crimes.

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:49 PM

When I tell people I support Ron Paul they don't consider it disrespectful to authority or a sign of psychopathy. I wonder why...

because right now, with your help, they're busy creating the precedent to move in that direction.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:50 PM

because right now, with your help, they're busy creating the precedent to move in that direction.

Nah it's just because I'm not insane, making threats, or saying things that could possibly be taken the wrong way.

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:52 PM

Nah it's just because I'm not insane, making threats, or saying things that could possibly be taken the wrong way.

yeah, never someone like that was taken unfairly to prison...

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:52 PM

No. I'm referring to the militias I listed in my post who were all convicted of their crimes.

I wasn't bothering with SPLC garbage,
I was making the point that most,, if not all were instigated and guided by Feds,,
And that has been documented in more than just a few.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:53 PM

yeah, never someone like that was taken unfairly to prison...

http://i33.tinypic.com/1tpwy8.jpg

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:54 PM

It's never going to happen. Only people who act like arm chair warriors and talk about militias and taking back the country through violence will end up in the psych ward or prison.

LOL - Germany, 1936.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:54 PM

Nah it's just because I'm not insane, making threats, or saying things that could possibly be taken the wrong way.
Neither is this guy..
Seems sane,, No laws broken, no charges filed.

The only laws broken here are by the state.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 04:55 PM

Nah it's just because I'm not insane, making threats, or saying things that could possibly be taken the wrong way.

So, tell me, how long should he stay in prison?

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 04:57 PM

Nah it's just because I'm not insane, making threats, or saying things that could possibly be taken the wrong way.
But you are trolling.
That should be apparent to those giving any benefit of doubt.
:(

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 04:57 PM

So, tell me, how long should he stay in prison?

He's not in prison. He's in a psych ward for a 30 day evaluation to make sure he isn't a danger to others or himself. It's not up to me how long he should be there so his psychiatrist will have to decide that.

But you are trolling.
That should be apparent to those giving any benefit of doubt.
:(

http://i33.tinypic.com/1tpwy8.jpg

tod evans

08-21-2012, 04:59 PM

He's not in prison. He's in a psych ward for a 30 day evaluation to make sure he isn't a danger to others or himself. It's not up to me how long he should be there so the government sponsored psychiatrist will have to decide that without a trial.

Fixed it.

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 04:59 PM

He's not in prison. He's in a psych ward for a 30 day evaluation to make sure he isn't a danger to others or himself. It's not up to me how long he should be there so his psychiatrist will have to decide that.

haha. "Ron Paul supporter" DDT is OK with indefinite detention, provided somebody labelled you a mental patient.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 05:03 PM

haha. "Ron Paul supporter" DDT is OK with indefinite detention, provided somebody labelled you a mental patient.
What makes you think he is a Ron Paul supporter?
I have seen no evidence to that effect,, in fact, just the opposite.

His only purpose here is to disrupt discussion.

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 05:04 PM

What makes you think he is a Ron Paul supporter?

what's the purpose of the quotes preceded by laughter?

haha. "Ron Paul supporter" DDT is OK with indefinite detention, provided somebody labelled you a mental patient.

some of you guys...

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 05:05 PM

What makes you think he is a Ron Paul supporter?
I have seen no evidence to that effect,, in fact, just the opposite.

His only purpose here is to disrupt discussion.

http://i33.tinypic.com/1tpwy8.jpg

You people are acting like idiots. Indefinite detention is now a 30 day evaluation and I'm not a RP supporter because I don't advocate violence against people?

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 05:06 PM

http://i33.tinypic.com/1tpwy8.jpg

You people are acting like idiots. Indefinite detention is now a 30 day evaluation

you didn't say 30 days. you said as long as the psychiatrist thinks is ok, which is an indefinite amount of time.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 05:08 PM

you didn't say 30 days. you said as long as the psychiatrist thinks is ok, which is an indefinite amount of time.

If someone is evaluated and deemed a danger to themselves and others should they not be confined to a mental health facility until they are better or should they just be allowed to roam free and do whatever they want?

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 05:11 PM

If someone is evaluated and deemed a danger to themselves and others should they not be confined to a mental health facility until they are better or should they just be allowed to roam free and do whatever they want?

no, it's not enough process, because it can very easily be used to indefinitely lock up people who just don't think the way the government thinks they should.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

08-21-2012, 05:13 PM

I posted this on facebook. (They will be at Paul Festival, btw.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u8tl_m-EOY&feature=player_embedded

And repeated the things said in the video as such...

"We would like to dedicate this song to those who work for peace, fight injustice, and spread love."

"We would also like this to serve as a warning to those who prey on the weak, steal from the honest, and murder the innocent. Your time is up."

Is it time for me to be "involuntarily committed?"

This came several posts later...

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/431564_250987615021874_1337353523_n.jpg

As far as I'm concerned, I'm expressing legitimate political opinions.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 05:13 PM

no, it's not enough process, because it can very easily be used to indefinitely lock up people who just don't think the way the government thinks they should.

No. If you have anti-government views that isn't considered crazy and is not enough to lock someone up.

low preference guy

08-21-2012, 05:15 PM

No. If you have anti-government views that isn't considered crazy and is not enough to lock someone up.

all that's necessary is that a government-paid psychiatrist labels you a mental patient.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 05:18 PM

all that's necessary is that a government-paid psychiatrist labels you a mental patient.

http://i33.tinypic.com/1tpwy8.jpg

Your thought process is all messed up. Having anti-government views is not even close to being enough to be considered insane. What if the psychiatrist shares the same views as I do about the government?

tod evans

08-21-2012, 05:25 PM

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 05:28 PM

No. If you have anti-government views that isn't considered crazy and is not enough to lock someone up.

I have no Anti-Government views. (I am not and have never been anarchist.)
I have anti- Corrupt Government views. I have anti-Authoritarian views.

There is a distinct difference.
Why is it that those that want to restore the Constitution are called Anti-Government?

should be a clue

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 05:32 PM

I have no Anti-Government views. (I am not and have never been anarchist.)
I have anti- Corrupt Government views. I have anti-Authoritarian views.

There is a distinct difference.
Why is it that those that want to restore the Constitution are called Anti-Government?

should be a clue

I guess I should have said "partially anti-statist" then.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

08-21-2012, 05:36 PM

I have no Anti-Government views. (I am not and have never been anarchist.)
I have anti- Corrupt Government views. I have anti-Authoritarian views.

There is a distinct difference.
Why is it that those that want to restore the Constitution are called Anti-Government?

should be a clue

It's so obviously purposeful, just like the "anarchists" always cause all the riots and such. The real anarchists are off somewhere minding their own business.

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 06:07 PM

No. If you have anti-government views that isn't considered crazy and is not enough to lock someone up.

Considered crazy by whom?

The government psychologist that is going to determine whether you spend the rest of your life in a prison hospital?

And I've lost my mind???

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 06:11 PM

Your thought process is all messed up. Having anti-government views is not even close to being enough to be considered insane. What if the psychiatrist shares the same views as I do about the government?

What if he doesn't?

I mean, don't get me wrong, this is not surprising, like I said before, the chief executive has now declared he has the power to kill you, just on his say so alone, so this really isn't all that shocking, nor is it shocking to see apologists lining up to defend it.

But, just so I'm clear on things: that is what amounts to due process nowadays?

Hope that your jailer has the same political views as you and sets you free?

Anti Federalist

08-21-2012, 06:14 PM

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/431564_250987615021874_1337353523_n.jpg

Epic.

Maybe one of a Japanese citizen imprisoned during WWII.

Philmanoman

08-21-2012, 06:15 PM

Think of how many singers could be detained right now...
Oh but thats different...theyre just expressing themselves artistically.

"We dont have the 1st amendment so we can talk about the weather.We have the 1st amendement so we can say very controversial things" - Ron Paul

Clearly Ron Pauls thoughts are all messed up.

DerailingDaTrain

08-21-2012, 06:17 PM

All psychiatrists are in the government's pocket and out to get you, the government is getting ready for an alien false flag, and they are trying to ban guns with two shooting incidents (which still hasn't affected gun ownership at all). I think some of you may have gone off the deep end.

Edit: I will not be quitting pcosmar so just get used to someone not agreeing with you about every conspiracy under the sun.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 06:19 PM

Judge refuses to stop transfer of detained Va. vet
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/judge-refuses-to-stop-1503555.html

Moved across the state,,away from family and friends.

pcosmar

08-21-2012, 06:27 PM

John W. Whitehead, president of The Rutherford Institute, said the following: “For government officials to not only arrest Brandon Raub for doing nothing more than exercising his First Amendment rights but to actually force him to undergo psychological evaluations and detain him against his will goes against every constitutional principle this country was founded upon. This should be a wake-up call to Americans that the police state is here.”

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/former-marine-brandon-raub-is-being-held-in-a-psychiatric-ward-over-facebook-posts-about-911-2012-8#ixzz24EKYaefu

Dr.3D

08-21-2012, 06:41 PM

Considered crazy by whom?

The government psychologist that is going to determine whether you spend the rest of your life in a prison hospital?

And I've lost my mind???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTFV9w4B0eg

tod evans

08-21-2012, 06:44 PM

Sick.........I know:o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4

Philmanoman

08-21-2012, 06:47 PM

Dr.3D

08-21-2012, 06:48 PM

Sick.........I know:o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4
They are taking him out of context, he was talking to his dog.

DamianTV

08-21-2012, 10:18 PM

Anyone want to bet what Ron Paul would say about this.

I have a feeling it would go something like this.

"Sure maybe what the guy said wasnt the smartest thing.Do I think he should be detained?Absolutely not...see...we have this thing called the 1st amendement...and I didnt see him make any direct threats to anyone in particular.Not to mention I believe he was quoting some words from a song.Unless there is some evidence that he meant harm to someone,I think its a bit ridiculous to keep him detained"

Just my opinion on what I think Ron Paul would say.

I think he might do something different. We all seem to have this expectation of Talking Heads to do just that: Talk. We expect them to try to feed our opinions to us. I think Ron Paul would do something completely different and totally unexpected. He would Listen.

Weston White

08-22-2012, 12:01 AM

The obvious fact that he was taken into custody without incident speaks for itself. At least for the moment, the guy was just “talking the talk”, yet not ready to “walk the walk”.

And this is what the government does with its time? W-O-W!

TheTexan

08-22-2012, 12:27 AM

I wish liberty supporters would stop using violent rhetoric. Violence is not the answer. We will only achieve liberty through peaceful means.

Aggressive violence generally does not respond to words, or "please."

I too would like to see this problem resolved without violence of any kind. And I hold out hope for that... though little is left.

PaulConventionWV

08-22-2012, 12:30 AM

{{Let's take a few seconds to get on the same page, so we don't waste time and cause misunderstandings}}

Issue 2: Freedom of Speech and Orwellian Pre-Crime

Should people be allowed to say what he did, without getting picked up by the Gov?
Yes, of course they should be.

Issue 1: Ron Paul Supporters who Want a Violent Revolution

If you are looking to start up, or support people who are starting, a violent revolution then you are in the wrong place.
If you are intentionally trying to make Ron Paul supporters appear to support violence, then you are/could be a traitor.

Since Brandon was a Ron Paul supporter who was also "ready for violence", he does not deserve our support.
His type makes us all look bad, and increases the danger we are already in.

I don't get what was so bad about his posts. A guy I knew on my college cross country team would say something to the effect of "let's slit some throats" before most races. It was something to get people motivated to compete, not something that people should take literally. He wasn't advocating actually slitting the throats of our competition. Likewise, I don't think we should pass judgment on someone for what he says. It's not like it was really that bad.

TheTexan

08-22-2012, 12:32 AM

I don't get what was so bad about his posts.

There wasn't anything that bad about his posts. That's kind of the point. This shit is getting out of hand.

Indy Vidual

08-22-2012, 12:37 AM

I wish liberty supporters would stop using violent rhetoric. Violence is not the answer. We will only achieve liberty through peaceful means.

+1
I tried to say the same thing; Get one or two words "wrong" and people fail to see the main point.

Indy Vidual

08-22-2012, 12:43 AM

...
I am curious,,because in the whole history of Mankind,, liberty (even a limited liberty) has never been achieved without a fight.
...

Many millions of people, in dozens of formerly Soviet countries achieved "limited liberty" for their people and (almost) complete Liberty from the USSR without (m)any shots being fired.

Indy Vidual

08-22-2012, 12:59 AM

Should people be allowed to say what he did, without getting picked up by the Gov?
Yes, of course they should be.

... It's not like it was really that bad.

Ron Paul leads (often by example) in a peaceful direction. Brandon's posts do not make Ron Paul supporters look peaceful.

?????????
Does anyone have a problem if I phrase it this way?

He should not be in custody, and people who learn from Ron Paul's teachings (re: peaceful action) do not talk the way he did.

awake

08-22-2012, 05:30 AM

Facebook will have two choices: work with the facist state of America, or, be forced to work with the facist state of America. Out of its own survival, Facebook will go along. I think it already has.

pcosmar

08-22-2012, 05:57 AM

Many millions of people, in dozens of formerly Soviet countries achieved "limited liberty" for their people and (almost) complete Liberty from the USSR without (m)any shots being fired.

NO they didn't. The Soviet Government folded and a somewhat less repressive group took over.
It had nothing to do with the people, or their calls for freedom,,or their actions at all. The Government simply overextended itself and could no longer continue. Criminal Gangs ruled over some, Strongmen over others,,some of which broke off.
The socialism remained. The controls remained. And Elections,,Please,, They elected the KGB.

presence

08-22-2012, 06:05 AM

Political agitation, by the passions it arouses or the convictions it engenders,
may in fact stimulate men to the violation of the law.
Detestation of existing policies is easily transformed into forcible resistance of the authority which puts them in execution,
and it would be folly to disregard the causal relation between the two.
Yet to assimilate agitation,
legitimate as such, with direct incitement to violent resistance,
is to disregard the tolerance of all methods of political agitation
which in normal times

is a safeguard of free government.

[]

There is no surer way to misread any document than to read it literally. ... As nearly as we can, we must put ourselves in the place of those who uttered the words, and try to divine how they would have dealt with the unforeseen situation; and, although their words are by far the most decisive evidence of what they would have done, they are by no means final.

[]

If the prosecution of crime is to be conducted with so little regard for that protection which centuries of English law have given to the individual, we are indeed at the dawn of a new era; and much that we have deemed vital to our liberties, is a delusion.

[]
In each case [courts] must ask whether the gravity of the 'evil', discounted by its improbability, justifies such invasion of free speech as is necessary to avoid the danger.
[]
Judge Hand affirmed that if a citizen “stops short of urging upon others that it is their duty or their interest to resist the law,” then he or she is protected by the First Amendment.

Judge Learned Hand

Learned Hand wrote approximately four thousand judicial opinions during his career. Admired for their clarity and analytic precision, they have been quoted more often in Supreme Court opinions and by legal scholars than those of any other lower-court judge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masses_Publishing_Co._v._Patten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_Hand
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Learned_Hand

I feel like I am standing at a great crossroads. As if a storm of destiny is about to pick me up and take me to fight a great battle. A battle I could have never imagined existed. 7/24/12

We MUST rise up and take our country back. 7/30/12

I am standing against a great evil. I will do it all by myself if I have to. 8/4/12

This is the part where I tell the Federal Government to go fuck itself. This is the part where I tell Generals, training our young men to fight Americans, I am coming for you. The Veterans will be with me. 8/9/12

I’m starting the Revolution. I’m done waiting. 8/10/12

Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads. 8/13/12

The Revolution will come for me. Men will be at my door soon to pick me up to lead it. 8/14/12

The Revolution is here. And I will lead it. 8/14/12

#6, by the way, seems to be a lyric from a song called Bring Me Down (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/swollenmembers/bringmedown.html) by a band called Swollen Members. Several of these sound like rants a lot of us have had in moments of frustration.

“stops short of urging upon others that it is their duty or their interest to resist the law,”

Did he say:

YOU SHOULD START A VIOLENT REVOLUTION
YOU SHOULD STAND WITH ME IN VIOLENT REVOLUTION

Did he insist:

YOU SHOULD SHARPEN YOUR AXE AND SEVER HEADS

or did he quote some song lyrics?

???

Did he URGE?

YOU SHOULD

Or did he prophesize and rant?

MEN WILL...

presence

DamianTV

08-22-2012, 06:18 AM

When a Govt implements a new extreme measure of control, it doesnt go in half cocked and try to test out this new system to see if it even works, they develop the product until they work out all the bugs. It wouldnt make much sense to send in a battalion of tanks into battle only to find out that not only do the engines overheat, treads fall off for no apparent reason, but there is a fatal problem where the exhaust blows directly into the passenger compartment. They dont win battles by doing this.

Instead, they build it, quietly and invisibly. And when they are ready, they are going to come down on every single one of us at the same time and we will truly live on a Prison Planet.

pcosmar

08-22-2012, 07:29 AM

http://freebrandonraub.com/
Brandon Raub is a former US Marine who posted the following on his FACEBOOK page

America has lost itself. We have lost who we truly are. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. This is the land of Thomas Jefferson. This is the land of Benjamin Franklin. This is the land of Fredrick Douglas. This is the land of Smedley Butler. This is the land John F. Kennedy. This is the land of Martin Luther King. This is the land where the cowboy wins. This is the land where you can start from the bottom and get to the top. This is the land where regardless of you race and ethnicity you can suceed and build a better life for you and your family. This is the land where every race coexists peacefully. This is the land where justice wins. This is the land where liberty dwells. This is the land where freedom reigns. This is the land where we help the poor, and people help eachother. This is land where people beat racism.

The federal reserve is wrong. They have designed a system based off of gread and fear. They designed a system to crush the middle class between taxes and inflation. This is wrong, and it is unjust. It is wrong.

We have allowed ourselves to be devieced and seduced by the powers of the printing press. It is not a good system. It discourages saving: the foundation for all stable economic activity. The federal reserve is artificially manipulating interests rates and creating phony economic data. This thing has decieved our entire nation.

They created it 1913. They also created the income tax in 1913. They encouraged the growth of debt so they can tax you on it. There is interest on the debt. Your government is in bed with these people. They want to enslave you to the government so that they can control every aspect of your lives. It is an empire based on lies. They operate of greed and fear.

There is a better way. It’s called freedom. Freedom is called a lot of things. But there is a true meaning. It means very simply that you have the right to do whatever you want as long as you are not infringing on the feedoms of other people.

I firmly believe that God set America apart from the other nations of the world. He saved a place where people could come to to escape bad systems of goverment. This system we have created works. It really works.

There is evil going on all around the world. The United States was meant to lead the charge against injustice, but through our example not our force. People do not respond to having liberty and freedom forced on them.

Men and Women follow courage. They follow leadership, and courage. Our example has paved the way for people all around the world to change their forms of goverment.

Force is not the way because liberty is a powerful concept. The idea that men can govern themselves is the basis for every just form of government.

We can govern ourselves. We do not need to be governed by men who want to install a one world banking system. These men have machine hearts. Machine and unnatural hearts. They have blocked out the possibility of a better world. They fear human progress. They have monopolies on everything.

This life can be free and beautiful. There are enough resources on this earth to support the world’s population. There are enough resources on this earth to feed everyone. There is enough land for everyone to own their own land and farm, and produce their own energy.

These people have been hiding technology. There are ways to create power easily. There is technology that can provide free cheap power for everyone. There are farming techniques that can feed the entire world.

They are controlling your media. They have dumbed you down through your school systems. They have systematically dismantled the constitution. It is in rags.

The bill of rights is being systematically dismantled. Men have spilled their blood for those rights.

Your sons and daughters, your brothers and sisters, and Americas best young men and women are loosing their limbs. They are loosing their lives. They are loosing the hearts. They do not know why they are fighting. They are killing. And they do not know why.

They have done some extroadinary acts. Their deeds go before them. But these wars are lies. They are lies. They decieved our entire nation with terrorism. They have gotten us to hand them our rights. Our Rights! Men died for those rights!

September Eleventh was an inside job. They blew up a third building in broad daylight. Building 7.

Your leaders betrayed you.

You elected an aristocracy. They are beholden to special interests. They were brainwashed through the Council on Foreign Relations. Your leaders are planning to merge the United States into a one world banking system. They want to put computer chips in you.

These men have evil hearts. They have tricked you into supporting corporate facism. We gave them the keys to our country. We were not vigilant with our republic.

There is hope. BUT WE MUST TAKE OUR REPUBLIC BACK.

Read that bolded part again before you accuse this man of inciting violence.

unklejman

08-22-2012, 09:31 AM

http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l547/unklejman/minority_book.jpg

pcosmar

08-23-2012, 12:11 PM

He is released.

UPDATE: Judge orders release of detained Marine veteran
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2012/aug/23/14/judge-says-he-will-order-release-marine-veteran-he-ar-2151347/

HOPEWELL, Va. --

A judge today ordered the release of a Marine Corps veteran being detained as a psychiatric patient after concerns over his Facebook postings.

After an hourlong hearing, Circuit Judge W. Allan Sharrett said an involuntary commitment petition issued against Brandon J. Raub was invalid because it contained no allegation or basis to holding him.

"The petition is so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy," said the release order signed by the judge and sought by lawyers Anthony F. Troy and Brian D. Fowler.

Anti Federalist

08-23-2012, 12:42 PM

He is released.

UPDATE: Judge orders release of detained Marine veteran
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2012/aug/23/14/judge-says-he-will-order-release-marine-veteran-he-ar-2151347/

I'd like to think that all of our raising hell about this, had a little something to do with it.

Like the Baby Cheyenne case.

Good news.

Now, I'll believe it when I see a picture of him as a free man.

Anti Federalist

08-23-2012, 12:47 PM

pcosmar

08-23-2012, 12:54 PM

I hope all the deniers and "mainstreamers" take a lesson from this as well.

Yes, he was dragged out of his home by armed agents of the state.

Yes, he was dragged out because of what he wrote and said.

Yes, he was imprisoned and held against his will.

Yes, it was done unjustly, without cause.

Not a conspiracy theory.

Not a Theory. It was a Conspiracy however.

I would really like to see all those involved jailed,,for at least a few days,, Bail costs and lawyer fees.
And the public derision. All the SS FBI County Sheriff, the Jerk that committed him,, and whoever complained about his posts (if they exist)

This should not have happened,,and should NEVER happen again.

Kidnapping,, False imprisonment
Violation of Civil Rights Under Color of Law..

pcosmar

08-23-2012, 03:59 PM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

This is an opportunity for posters in this thread to reexamine their positions.

"The petition is so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy," said the release order signed by the judge and sought by lawyers Anthony F. Troy and Brian D. Fowler.

DamianTV

08-23-2012, 05:31 PM

Update to Original Story

Detained Marine veteran now released, per judge’s order
http://wtvr.com/2012/08/23/brandon-raub-judge-orders-release-of-detained-marine-veteran-freed/#ooid=ZlcWNwNTouT37H_zye8kXimnt27VF_uW

better-dead-than-fed

08-23-2012, 05:54 PM

+1
I tried to say the same thing; Get one or two words "wrong" and people fail to see the main point.
-1

Anti Federalist

08-23-2012, 06:44 PM

i dont think i can post on this forum anymore . some of you people here have lost your fucking minds .

"The petition is so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy," said the release order signed by the judge and sought by lawyers Anthony F. Troy and Brian D. Fowler.

Pete had it exactly right.

This is an opportunity for posters in this thread to reexamine their positions.

This needed repeating.

donnay

08-23-2012, 07:02 PM

We need to back this group: The Rutherford Institute https://www.rutherford.org/contact/

Donations are welcomed: https://www.rutherford.org/donate/

They are the ones that are defending this Marine

better-dead-than-fed

08-24-2012, 10:03 AM

We need to back this group: The Rutherford Institute https://www.rutherford.org/contact/

Donations are welcomed: https://www.rutherford.org/donate/

They are the ones that are defending this Marine

I wrote them on Wednesday about certain other civil-liberties and human-rights violations (e.g., eight-month detention lacking any legal basis):

I hope that these documents will interest you: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZlNtxnJPG2qjHjYoqnNclE4747P747hd0x79eNz5-SE/edit.

but they have not responded.

better-dead-than-fed

08-24-2012, 10:14 AM

Not a Theory. It was a Conspiracy however.

I would really like to see all those involved jailed,,for at least a few days,, Bail costs and lawyer fees.
And the public derision. All the SS FBI County Sheriff, the Jerk that committed him,, and whoever complained about his posts (if they exist)

This should not have happened,,and should NEVER happen again.

Kidnapping,, False imprisonment
Violation of Civil Rights Under Color of Law..

I agree with all of that, and add that wrongful commitments could be deterred by legislation: "In order to create a full and reliable record, all government-ordered mental-health examinations should be videotaped, and the results should be provided to defendants. Agencies claiming they are unable to implement this safeguard should be prohibited from conducting such examinations." (from "Government Psychiatrists and Psychologists (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C5HH1FIvvbmht2OdOIIu1qWif3VZFhk4Z5XMztzZy-c/edit)")

better-dead-than-fed

08-24-2012, 10:43 AM

all that's necessary is that a government-paid psychiatrist labels you a mental patient.

pretty much.

better-dead-than-fed

08-24-2012, 11:01 AM

No. If you have anti-government views that isn't considered crazy and is not enough to lock someone up.

What have you heard or seen which gave you that idea? According to University of Arizona Medical Center Psychiatrist Barry Morenz, a person's "feeling that the attorneys are not doing their job, that are incompetent and are -- do not have his best interests in mind" is a basis for involuntary commitment. Lawyers have hired Morenz "maybe a couple thousand" times to conduct forensic mental-health evaluations. (Government Psychiatrists and Psychologists (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C5HH1FIvvbmht2OdOIIu1qWif3VZFhk4Z5XMztzZy-c/edit))

better-dead-than-fed

08-24-2012, 11:14 AM

His only purpose here is to disrupt discussion.

With all due respect, I think he's making for a more enlightening discussion, despite my tending to disagree with him. He gives me something to refute. Without that, what would we have to discuss?

better-dead-than-fed

08-24-2012, 11:24 AM

There's a little thing called the law and despite what you may think you have to follow it. ...

Tell that to Booth, Loughner, Kaczynski, McVeigh, Rosa Parks, and those guys who signed the Declaration of Independence.

better-dead-than-fed

08-24-2012, 11:28 AM

... I don't advocate violence ....

you just fund it, when you pay the government to administer it?

Anti Federalist

08-24-2012, 12:00 PM

Brandon Raub Ordered Released By Circuit Judge

Posted by Christopher Manion on August 24, 2012 11:30 AM

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/118768.html

In a stinging rebuke to the FBI, the Secret Service, and other self-appointed Thought Police, Hopewell Circuit Judge W. Allan Sharrett ordered the immediate release of Brandon Raub, whom Virginia authorities had imprisoned last week because of anti-government comments that he had posted on the Internet.

Judge Sharrett found "that a document ordering Raub's transfer this week from a Hopewell hospital to the Salem VA Medical Center was faulty and "so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy."

Special thanks and congratulations are in order for the vital role played by the Rutherford Institute, which immediately came to Raub's defense and exposed the scandalous series of illegal actions on the part of Virginia officials that railroaded Mr. Raub into a psychiatric jail for a thirty-day term without being charged of any crime.

Readers should note that every level of government, from the federal to the local police in Chesterfield County, here in Virginia, were complicit in this illegal arrest and incaceration. No one at any level of government stepped forward to defend Mr. Raub's First Amendment rights until the Rutherford Institute initiated legal action in his defense and took the matter to court. That includes Virginia Republicans Rep. Bob Goodlatte and former Senator and current Senate candidate George Allen, both of whom did not respond to requests I placed with their respective offices.

This should be a lesson -- and a warning -- for us all.